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americaspasttim
08-03-2008, 02:05 AM
As one of the founding father's of the Red Sox forum, I feel the pressing need to voice my opinion of the recent trade in my own thread.:) Feel free to comment and pm me hate messages.

Going into the trade deadline, the Red Sox were more or less stabilizing. The offense was getting another boost with the return of Ortiz, but pitching still remained a question mark. Even though the pitching staff was fourth in the AL in earned run average, the bullpen had already blown more saves then the Devil Rays and Yankees combined. The offense however was holding its own, thanks especially to the contributions of Manny Ramirez, despite rumors of alleged malcontent. So as July 31st approached, it became very apparent what was the most pressing need on the team, pitching and more specifically bullpen help.

As the deadline passed, news broke that the Red Sox had made a major trade. This trade however did not fill the most crucial need on the team. Instead it traded one of its highest producing offensive catalysts, in addition to a valued bullpen arm and a young outfield prospect, for an outfielder who has struggled to hit American League pitching. Don't get me wrong, Bay is a solid hitter who I am sure will adapt, especially on a team that will provide the protection the Red Sox can. But he was not a need.

So now that the trade has gone through and fans are celebrating the departure of a player that by all accounts loved playing in Boston for the fans in Boston, the question remains: are we a better team? The answer is of course no. We downgraded at the one position that was actually performing at a high level, and failed to upgrade where we needed it most. Is Bay actually going to perform at such a heightened level that he will carry us past the detriments of the bullpen? Of course not. The bullpen remains as is, while all the energy and focus of the administration was centered on trading an offensive super-star and prospects for a lesser known quantity. So all of you who are rejoicing and celebrating in Manny's departure, I ask you to stop and really question, are we really better off?

Sweet_Caroline
08-03-2008, 02:19 AM
I thought the same exact thing after the deadline. I had no problem with the trade of Manny, because i think Bay will be solid if not better. I was disappointed in the fact we didn't upgrade our bullpen. I guess management thinks it was better to try to work from within the organization, but you would think it wouldv'e worked itself out by now, considering we really don't know who is going to pitch the 8th...that being said after seeing what the yankees gave up for Marte and Nady, why couldn't have we done something to get Marte? It didn't seem like he came to expensive. But i guess we'll see how it all works out.

quiksilver2491
08-03-2008, 02:52 AM
Ever heard of waiver trades? I still believe there is a chance for us to pick up a solid arm for the pen but if not then I have faith we can get it to work, its already shown glimpses of being effective for us.

Sweet_Caroline
08-03-2008, 02:55 AM
Ever heard of waiver trades? I still believe there is a chance for us to pick up a solid arm for the pen but if not then I have faith we can get it to work, its already shown glimpses of being effective for us.

Yeah I thought of that too, but considering we are ahead of the Yankees in the standings, I don't see any way the Yankees don't claim any pitcher thats half way decent, just so we don't get a chance to get them. But hopefully Oki can find his form again, and Masterson should be fine.

gcoll
08-03-2008, 03:21 AM
With all that was said and done, would Manny coming back to the team after the trade deadline really be a good situation for us?

Our lineup will still produce runs. That hasn't been the problem, and it won't be the problem. In years past, losing Manny would have hurt a lot more, because he was a much bigger part of our offense. But now, we have a very balanced lineup, with a group of players (including Bay) who are good enough to score runs.

The problem is still the bullpen, yes. But, let's see how it plays out.

Are we a better team? I don't really know. I think we are a good enough team to make a run at the playoffs, and possibly even compete for a World Series....so I'm not too worried about it.

lil'papi
08-03-2008, 07:06 AM
We lost Ortiz and scored the SAME amount of runs per game without him. Why is Manny better than Papi? I get tired of this over blown arguement.
We have a good offense when everyone is contributing, but lately we have trouble against top pitchers. With Bay the offense won't suffer one iota. Manny wouldn't play against top pitchers anyway.
Bay will.
5.0 runs per game......with or without.

Someone has to hold the leads.

We need to shore up the pen no doubt.

BTownTeamsRKing
08-03-2008, 08:19 AM
We lost Ortiz and scored the SAME amount of runs per game without him. Why is Manny better than Papi? I get tired of this over blown arguement.
We have a good offense when everyone is contributing, but lately we have trouble against top pitchers. With Bay the offense won't suffer one iota. Manny wouldn't play against top pitchers anyway.
Bay will.
5.0 runs per game......with or without.

Someone has to hold the leads.

We need to shore up the pen no doubt.

right now, Ortiz is just another hitter in this line up. he is not better than Youk or Bay at the moment. if he starts hitting like he can, this team will dominate and win the division easy.

lil'papi
08-03-2008, 09:42 AM
right now, Ortiz is just another hitter in this line up. he is not better than Youk or Bay at the moment. if he starts hitting like he can, this team will dominate and win the division easy.

Ortiz is still adjusting to getting back. My point is simple Ortiz the last years has produced as many runs as Manny, maybe more.
Ortiz went down we scored 5.0 run per game, Manny goes down (via trade) we basically are back to Ortiz being out.

EXCEPT we got Bay in the deal who should help.

Our problem is beating top pitchers with our lineup. Lowell and Drew along with Ellsbury hit the skids at the same time. Nevermind Tek.

IF, they all just produce at career averages we will be just fine offensively.

Shore up the pen , end game. How ??

Are we better off, yes. Are we better offensively time will tell. Manny is aging if we picked up the two options thats 40mil. Bay will cost us 12-14 mil. We freed up 25-28mil what they do with that coin longterm is the answer we are looking for.

I posted a prospectus on Bay he projects well. We know he will play when his name is penciled in. Listen I will miss Manny and his production , but he slit his own throat.

I make no apologies......

Tragedy
08-03-2008, 11:29 AM
Craig Hansen < Chris Smith, I believe.

I think we absolutely upgraded the Bullpen. Theo Epstein would have kept Craig Hansen in that Bullpen until seasons end, and it would have continued to kill us. He's now gone, and that's one less person to be worried about coming into games. Just about everyone else in that Bullpen has done well recently, and my worries when holding a lead in the 6th, 7th, and 8th innings aren't as bad as they used to be.

As for Ramirez, there is no doubt that there is a downgrade on offense. I could never question or disagree with that. However, it HAD to happen. We got the best player possible to replace Ramirez, and I can't really complain about that. It could have been far worse - Prospects for Ramirez. I'm happier to have someone in his prime right now that will help this team contribute, as we've seen in his first two games.

I still stand by the trade. Ramirez was a prick and had to go.

TheKid
08-03-2008, 11:47 AM
call me crazy but i think we are actually better off. I know it goes against conventional thought but here's why i think this. Could you really trust Manny in the clutch knowing his pension for trying to "make statements" to the owners? Not I. Plus there was the fact that there was animosity between the team and Manny. They VOTED him off the island... err out of the park...

I don't know where you're getting the statement that our offense was "stabilizing" recently. Just because Ortiz came back doesn't mean that the offense had stabilized. Just look at the games leading up to the trade for proof. In the week leading up to the trade our offensive output was 0,3,9,5,2,2. That's 3.5 runs per game. (btw the 9 run game came against Sidney "hand me another donut" Ponson) Now of course you could make the argument that Ortiz needed to settle in and get back into things, but you can't deny that there was an aura around this team since the all-star break that they were in a tail-spin. Sometimes what is really needed is inspiration, and that's what this deal did. The team has a new energy, a new feel, a new aura around them. So while you might not think we upgraded the pen (btw we added masterson to it just recently too), i say that we are a better team, while we may not be a better collection of talents, we are definitely a better team.

yaowowrocket11
08-03-2008, 12:11 PM
Craig Hansen < Chris Smith, I believe.

I think we absolutely upgraded the Bullpen. Theo Epstein would have kept Craig Hansen in that Bullpen until seasons end, and it would have continued to kill us. He's now gone, and that's one less person to be worried about coming into games. Just about everyone else in that Bullpen has done well recently, and my worries when holding a lead in the 6th, 7th, and 8th innings aren't as bad as they used to be.

As for Ramirez, there is no doubt that there is a downgrade on offense. I could never question or disagree with that. However, it HAD to happen. We got the best player possible to replace Ramirez, and I can't really complain about that. It could have been far worse - Prospects for Ramirez. I'm happier to have someone in his prime right now that will help this team contribute, as we've seen in his first two games.

I still stand by the trade. Ramirez was a prick and had to go.

I agree 100%. Also, Aardsma is coming back soon, so the bullpen will be fine. Hansen was the main lead blower. Now that he is gone, fewer runs will be given up in the late innings.

Tragedy
08-03-2008, 12:11 PM
I agree 100%. Also, Aardsma is coming back soon, so the bullpen will be fine. Hansen was the main lead blower. Now that he is gone, fewer runs will be given up in the late innings.
Exactly.

AND, after Redsoxtober showed me the numbers, Timlin is pitching far better, as well.

yaowowrocket11
08-03-2008, 12:15 PM
Exactly.

AND, after Redsoxtober showed me the numbers, Timlin is pitching far better, as well.

I think his clutch performance in the 12th inning getting the win on Friday will really boost his confidence. I am not too worried about the bullpen.

bosox3431
08-03-2008, 04:48 PM
Really if compare Bay and Mannys season this year, they are pretty damn close offensivly, of course Bay dosent have the same presence in the lineup that Manny had, but Bay dont need to be babysat, he's going to play his *** off, play good defense, and as long as he's not a total jerk, he should be good for the clubhouse. And Im sure he's happy as hell to be out Pittsburg and in Boston where he has a chance to win.

And if the rumor is true and the majority of the teamates wanted Manny gone, then he def should be, it brings the whole team down. Think about it as if at your place of work, thers a total douche bag who is always acting stupid, causing problems and bringing the morale down. Dont you want him gone to no matter how good of a worker he is?

Jeremy5150
08-03-2008, 05:47 PM
Bay is hitting .421 lifetime (8-19) against Andy Pettitte, .429 (3-7) against Mike Mussina and .500 (1-2) against Joba Chamberlain.

lil'papi
08-04-2008, 09:23 AM
^^ He will get alot more licks now. Hopefully the same trend continues.

RedSoxtober
08-04-2008, 10:16 AM
I will disagree. I'll go with TheKid regarding the "stabilizing offense". Unless you give us some other definition for it I'm inclined to agree that their lack of production does not suggest any kind of stabilization. It may have been approaching the lineup that we expected to see all year -- I'd agree wholeheartedly there -- but they were not producing.

I am also not quite so sure about Manny being a stable, productive force for the Sox either. His overall splits for July look very good, but if you scratch below the surface the details are somewhat different. He piled up great lines against some weak and weak pitching teams during July (e.g., BAL, SEA) but was kept fairly well in check in two series each against LAA and NYY. While still a great hitter I believe he's on the decline and Bay '08 may come close to matching Manny '08. Bay may even get energized by playing some meaningful games.

I am not happy about the extra cost involved in obtaining Bay. I remain completely unconvinced that Hansen will ever turn the corner but so long as others are so inclined I think he had more trade value. I liked Moss, am glad he's getting a Murphy-style chance to play elsewhere, but again agree that losing him represented an unnecessary talent drain.

Losing Hansen was another form of addition by subtraction. He would have stayed in the pen and hurt us over the long run IMO. In the short term (2008) he probably helps more than hurts by getting traded.

The bigger deal to me is the reported reaction of the vets on the team. It seems that covering for "Manny Being Manny" was more of a strain than most let on and his teammates clearly did not trust him. IMO baseball requires more focus than any other sport -- at least when you're in the batter's box -- and meaningless distractions like that can hurt a team. Letting him go now and landing a solid replacement will help the team now and in the future.

It's also worth wondering what the Sox can do with their increased financial flexibility.

On the whole I believe we are better off without Manny, though there are clearly pain points in the deal.

JoTyler65
08-06-2008, 07:50 PM
Sorry to come in late on this. Im new to reading this forum.

While ANA, CHI and esp. NY all got better, we made at best a lateral move. My views on Manny are prob contrary to most everyone's here from what I gather, so I wont go into that, but what no one's talking about is how this is going to affect Ortiz, who is the big loser in this trade, esp in the playoffs when smart managers (i.e. Scioscia) are going to pitch around him. Im tired of seeing Lowell hit into popups and Drew grounding out to second. Their production, unless theyre hot, is not consistent enough to protect Papi.

Im also tired of losing the David Murphys and Brandon Mosses. I mean, I thought this organization had turned the corner and was going to start relying on its prospects. Obviously, that's not the case. Theyre still just trading pawns. Given Jacoby's slump and Crisp's continued inability to hit, we might've even been better this season offensively if we moved JD to center and started Moss in right. Wed have more production from the bottom of the order, which has been a glaring weakness.

As for the bullpen, Hansen is prob not a great loss. Weve given him so many chances. WE could've got Mahey but again we would have had to sacrifice our best outfield prospect. We know how well that worked out last year. I believe in Timlin he's throwing a very live ball I dont know why Francona doesnt trust him and Smith looks better than Hansen—why dont we use him more?
\
Are we better now—no. You dont mess with what's working. All we had to do was sign Manny to a two-year extension in the offseason and then enjoy another championship.

lil'papi
08-08-2008, 09:08 AM
:confused:
Sorry to come in late on this. Im new to reading this forum.

While ANA, CHI and esp. NY all got better, we made at best a lateral move. My views on Manny are prob contrary to most everyone's here from what I gather, so I wont go into that, but what no one's talking about is how this is going to affect Ortiz, who is the big loser in this trade, esp in the playoffs when smart managers (i.e. Scioscia) are going to pitch around him. Im tired of seeing Lowell hit into popups and Drew grounding out to second. Their production, unless theyre hot, is not consistent enough to protect Papi.

With Manny out of the lineup Ortiz's OPS is actually better. I heard this on sports tonight. I don't have the stats , but i'm sure its easy to find.

Im also tired of losing the David Murphys and Brandon Mosses. I mean, I thought this organization had turned the corner and was going to start relying on its prospects. Obviously, that's not the case. Theyre still just trading pawns. Given Jacoby's slump and Crisp's continued inability to hit, we might've even been better this season offensively if we moved JD to center and started Moss in right. Wed have more production from the bottom of the order, which has been a glaring weakness.

As for the bullpen, Hansen is prob not a great loss. Weve given him so many chances. WE could've got Mahey but again we would have had to sacrifice our best outfield prospect. We know how well that worked out last year. I believe in Timlin he's throwing a very live ball I dont know why Francona doesnt trust him and Smith looks better than Hansen—why dont we use him more?
\
Are we better now—no. You dont mess with what's working. All we had to do was sign Manny to a two-year extension in the offseason and then enjoy another championship.

HUH,?? it was CLEARLY not working. :confused:

Manny didn't want the two yr extension. He wanted a revamp of the whole deal he was asking for 6 more years on top of the two option years left, which were yr to yr btw.

He would be in his 40's. He is declining. He will keep declining. What he is doing right now.....is further proof he was dogging it. That my friend is breach of contract. Hence MLB looking into it.

....anytime a player quits on his team its time to go.

What he did was disgusting while making obscene amounts of money. If he just shut up and produced two thing would have happened. He would have been taken cared of and also the team would have won.

If you loved Manny then be mad at Boras.

By the time Boras called back to get his client's deal rescinded Manny had already screwed the pooch. :p