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moneyball
08-01-2008, 06:38 AM
How do you rate this trade?

BostonFan 53
08-01-2008, 06:40 AM
Talent Wise-F
Overall-B

moneyball
08-01-2008, 06:43 AM
Wow that was fast..........I am hoping Bay is a better player than you might think.

Tankjeep
08-01-2008, 06:43 AM
talent wise has yet to be proven....especially since bay will have protection at the plate and people he can hit around.

moneyball
08-01-2008, 06:44 AM
and a much friendlier ballpark to hit in half the time.

ZHawk1123
08-01-2008, 07:17 AM
He hit .282 22 HR and 64 RBI in the 2nd worst hitters ballpark in the Majors...

Imagine what he could do at Fenway... I am expecting a ton of wall balls

saint7888
08-01-2008, 07:21 AM
Wow that was fast..........I am hoping Bay is a better player than you might think.

From a Yankee standpoint its a great trade, now I don't gotta see manny kill us anymore...

Bay for Manny tho.... sounds like something you could pull off in a video game....lol what a joke...Nady's a better hitter then Bay is

Is Bay all use got back in return? Cuzz is so this has to be the worst trade in Red Sox history right next to babe ruth

lil'papi
08-01-2008, 07:59 AM
From a Yankee standpoint its a great trade, now I don't gotta see manny kill us anymore...

Bay for Manny tho.... sounds like something you could pull off in a video game....lol what a joke...Nady's a better hitter then Bay is

Is Bay all use got back in return? Cuzz is so this has to be the worst trade in Red Sox history right next to babe ruth

We shall see.....

Nady is having his career year. Bay will next year. :p

X12Celtics3
08-01-2008, 08:01 AM
I have to admit... I don't like this trade too much. If you look at it from only the Sox prospective, we traded Manny, Craig Hansen, and BRANDON MOSS for Jason Bay. Why did we give up so much? Why did we get only one player? Why did the Dodgers give up almost nothing, yet they got the major player in the deal?
Despite that i don't like what we gave up/recieved, I am relieved to have Manny out of town.

Thelfman
08-01-2008, 08:03 AM
"Super considering gun to Theo's head" I voted.

As much as I loved Manny and what he brought to this team, I feel like if Bay puts up his "normal" season, this is a huge win trade by Theo.

Check out these numbers, then take into account the fact that Bay is 29 while Manny 36 with Bay making just a little over 1/3 of Manny's salary.

Runs created/lost:

Defense

(Fielding Bible):

Bay: -1
Ramirez: -15


Baserunning

(bases added/taken away):

Bay: +23
Ramirez: -4

Hitting:
(batting runs created from THT):

Bay: 75
Ramirez: 70

(GPA):

Bay: .303
Ramirez: .301

And for those who don't know, GPA is...
Gross Production Average, a variation of OPS, but more accurate and easier to interpret. The exact formula is (OBP*1.8+SLG)/4, adjusted for ballpark factor. The scale of GPA is similar to BA: .200 is lousy, .265 is around average and .300 is a star. A simple formula for converting GPA to runs is PA*1.356*(GPA^1.77). (Hardballtimes.com)

SoxRTattedOnMe
08-01-2008, 08:08 AM
Talent Wise-F
Overall-B


How can u give it an overall b?????

Hmmm let's see we gave up 3 players for Bay pretty much
Dodgers gave up 2 for Manny
The pirates received 4 for Bay


So you are telling me manny was worth laroche and whoever else while Bay is worth those 4???? 4get dat

BoSox2212
08-01-2008, 08:25 AM
I don't understand how anyone could say this trade was terrible under any circumstances. We received one of the few hitters available that can replace (or come close to) Manny's hitting ability. Also, when you look at Moss and Hansen, they were never really going to have a place in Boston anyway.

Think of the trade going down this way:
We swapped Manny for Bay for the rest of the season, not a bad move considering Manny's attitude. Then, we traded Moss and Hansen (not too much) in the offseason to have Bay for all of next year and hopefully beyond.

lil'papi
08-01-2008, 08:42 AM
He is an 800 lb Gorilla now off the teams back. Bay in our lineup hopefully puts up even better numbers.

Manny had to go , from reports , the players told the FO he was a major distraction in the clubhouse too. Manny will kill the Dodgers eventually. If you have young star players emulating this bozo you just did yourself a disservice.

He also frees up a nice chunk of change for winter acquisitions.

sboyajian
08-01-2008, 08:59 AM
Yesterday when I found out everything we gave up for him, I will admit, I was upset. I was happy we had Bay and was happy Manny was gone, but I was upset that it cost us money and two other guys.

Then I slept on it. I thought long and hard and it occured to me.

We weren't going to pick up his option, because we weren't going to take the chance that we couldn't trade him again. He would have been gone. Then we would have had Hansen, Moss and No Manny or Bay.

Basically what we did was pay manny for his year and let him leave 2 months early. Then we traded Hansen and Moss for Bay. Bay is worth WAY more than Hansen and Moss and if it takes letting Manny go a couple months early to get Bay.. it was overall, a good trade off.

I give the Sox a C+ (I would have given them a B+/A- if they brought in a RP, We should have gotten Grabow..

Danman1116
08-01-2008, 09:05 AM
Yesterday when I found out everything we gave up for him, I will admit, I was upset. I was happy we had Bay and was happy Manny was gone, but I was upset that it cost us money and two other guys.

Then I slept on it. I thought long and hard and it occured to me.

We weren't going to pick up his option, because we weren't going to take the chance that we couldn't trade him again. He would have been gone. Then we would have had Hansen, Moss and No Manny or Bay.

Basically what we did was pay manny for his year and let him leave 2 months early. Then we traded Hansen and Moss for Bay. Bay is worth WAY more than Hansen and Moss and if it takes letting Manny go a couple months early to get Bay.. it was overall, a good trade off.

I give the Sox a C+ (I would have given them a B+/A- if they brought in a RP, We should have gotten Grabow..

Agreed with ya on that, I'd probably give it overall a B-/C+, we definitely shoulda gotten either Grabow, Broxton or one of the other studs for LA

i am bob
08-01-2008, 09:07 AM
We should've gotten more from the deal but what more could we have gotten? If we didn't trade him Manny is gone next season for Free so trading him for someone atleast decent was the best choice. Grade a B-.

ERLynx
08-01-2008, 09:23 AM
Straight up B. Here's my take.

I'm sick of Manny. I'm sick of his antics. Sick of his not running to first. Sick of his lackadasical defense. Not thrilled that he basically assaulted a 70 year old man over a ridiculous ticket demand. Sick of the slow trot around the bases. Sick of the fact that he was literally going to throw the rest of the year in a Red Sox uniform. Sick of the fights in the clubhouse, and in the dugout, with Youk.

If that's not a gun to Theo's head, i dont know what is.

On the bright side, Bay is a tough player who works hard day in and day out. He has not benefitted from protection in the lineup, and has hit in a tough ballpark on basically a triple A team and still put up strong numbers. He is not a free agent at the end of this year (as manny is), and he is far better in the field, provided he learn how to play the wall.

sure, he wont be a hall of famer, but this trade is about value, and right now, Bay demonstrates higher value than the cancer that Ramirez had become.

Also, to the Yankee fan who said "now we dont have to see Manny kill us anymore." I think maybe you were thinking of Ortiz or Youkilis, who are both still on the team. This season is far from over.

papipapsmanny
08-01-2008, 09:30 AM
From a Yankee standpoint its a great trade, now I don't gotta see manny kill us anymore...

Bay for Manny tho.... sounds like something you could pull off in a video game....lol what a joke...Nady's a better hitter then Bay is

Is Bay all use got back in return? Cuzz is so this has to be the worst trade in Red Sox history right next to babe ruth

haha, there is no way nady is better than bay, maybe this year he is by a little bit

but career numbers arent really close Nady Career OPS+ of 109 barely above league average

Bay Career OPS+ of 130 much better than nady

RedSoxtober
08-01-2008, 09:52 AM
I went with the majority. I don't mind the Bay-for-Manny replacement as much as the others thrown in the mix. I did not expect either of them to make significant impact on the MLB club though I think we lost some 'opportunity cost' for deals we could have used them in.


He hit .282 22 HR and 64 RBI in the 2nd worst hitters ballpark in the Majors...

Imagine what he could do at Fenway... I am expecting a ton of wall balls

Checked the park factors and they're pretty similar overall. Fenway does produce a lot more doubles than anywhere else, but it suppresses HRs. Fortunately, so did PIT. The one thing that might hurt is unfamiliarity with AL pitchers.


From a Yankee standpoint its a great trade, now I don't gotta see manny kill us anymore...

Bay for Manny tho.... sounds like something you could pull off in a video game....lol what a joke...Nady's a better hitter then Bay is

Is Bay all use got back in return? Cuzz is so this has to be the worst trade in Red Sox history right next to babe ruth

By what objective measure is Nady a better hitter than Bay? If Nady finishes with a .900+ OPS it will be the first time in his career that he finishes above .815; Bay averaged an .891 OPS with five .900+ seasons and the current one just a tick below.

If you're going to troll at least have the facts by your side.


Yesterday when I found out everything we gave up for him, I will admit, I was upset. I was happy we had Bay and was happy Manny was gone, but I was upset that it cost us money and two other guys.

Then I slept on it. I thought long and hard and it occured to me.

We weren't going to pick up his option, because we weren't going to take the chance that we couldn't trade him again. He would have been gone. Then we would have had Hansen, Moss and No Manny or Bay.

Basically what we did was pay manny for his year and let him leave 2 months early. Then we traded Hansen and Moss for Bay. Bay is worth WAY more than Hansen and Moss and if it takes letting Manny go a couple months early to get Bay.. it was overall, a good trade off.

I give the Sox a C+ (I would have given them a B+/A- if they brought in a RP, We should have gotten Grabow..

I have the same grade in mind. Manny severely hurt his trade value over the past five weeks. I think we overpaid with prospects but we did get the only available bat with similar production. Plus, sending Manny to the NL reduces the possibility of him striking back this year (until Lester strikes him out to win the WS :p).

lil'papi
08-01-2008, 09:53 AM
Also kept Bay out of the Bay.

Tragedy
08-01-2008, 09:55 AM
It was an overall good trade.

-We lose Craig Hansen: I wish he would have stayed and worked through his issues in AAA, but oh well. We can easily replace him on our team.

-We lose Brandon Moss: He was another David Murphy. He'll be a solid hitter vs. righties, but he would have never amounted to anything on our team. I'm glad to see him traded, as he can get serious at bats now.

-We gave up money: Money is absolutely, 110%, not an issue with Boston. Who cares.

-We gave up Ramirez, and in return, we got Bay: This is really the only player for player part that matters. We're now 7 years younger in LF, we picked up an all around good guy and teammate from everything we've heard. We're adding defense and a bit of speed, we're getting a cheaper contract that is also signed through 2009 (My favorite part), and he's putting up the same numbers age 29 that Ramirez is slowing down to put up at age 36.

The deal was not nearly as bad as some people want to think. The (Yankee) fans that are saying we are done because of this are laughable.

Towelie
08-01-2008, 10:07 AM
Nady better than bay :laugh: give me some of that crack your smoking.

ERLynx
08-01-2008, 10:10 AM
A coworker just brought this up to me, and I am thinking about it. Can you guys think of any star players the Sox have traded in the 21st century that have gone on to be stars somewhere else? Certainly not Damon, Pedro, Lowe, or Nomar. I think Theo just knows when it's time. Maybe thats blatant homerism, but I feel good about this trade.

Towelie
08-01-2008, 10:19 AM
Also keep in mind right now dodger stadium is the biggest pitchers park rating right now.

PNC is ranked 4 best pitchers park in 08.

sboyajian
08-01-2008, 10:34 AM
Bronson Arroyo had a fantastic first full season in CIN.

Lowe's W-L column may not be pretty (except in 2006), but the ERA, IP and K's he put up since going to the Dodgers have been very good.

How has Nomar not had success? He's had injuries, but in his first year in LAD, he an MVP candidate an and All Star.

homie564
08-01-2008, 10:42 AM
i said the first one :D... A+... because yes we lose the trade but i know who jason bay the player is and by what people are saying jaon bay the guy is great too... i loved this rade especially seeing we traded manny :D

ERLynx
08-01-2008, 10:57 AM
Bronson Arroyo had a fantastic first full season in CIN.

Lowe's W-L column may not be pretty (except in 2006), but the ERA, IP and K's he put up since going to the Dodgers have been very good.

How has Nomar not had success? He's had injuries, but in his first year in LAD, he an MVP candidate an and All Star.

I never said they didnt have "success". I said they didnt go on to be "stars" on other teams. and I know it's subjective.

sboyajian
08-01-2008, 11:00 AM
I never said they didnt have "success". I said they didnt go on to be "stars" on other teams. and I know it's subjective.

It is subjective, because none of the ones (except Pedro) have been the "stars" of the team, they've just been above talent players.

yaowowrocket11
08-01-2008, 11:03 AM
I voted: "Super considering gun to Theo's head"

Overall Grade: A-

Manny's situation, carelessness, and lack of effort was affecting the whole team. He needed to be traded as soon as possible. I think that we got an outstanding player in Jason Bay, who can almost put up the numbers as Manny did, while being a non-distraction. The way I like to think of this deal is the following:

We got value in return for Manny, and a starting left fielder for 2009. If we kept him, he would have kept up his little tantrum, and the whole team's chances of making the playoffs would have gone down the toilet, fast. Then, come offseason time, we would have let him go, and get nothing in return for him........ We got an almost as good OF in return for Manny, and a definite starter for 2009.

Great job Theo. You deserve this!

:clap: :clap: :Clap:

ERLynx
08-01-2008, 11:08 AM
It is subjective, because none of the ones (except Pedro) have been the "stars" of the team, they've just been above talent players.

I understand your point, and am not looking to argue with you, but how can you say Nomar wasn't the star of the team? He was runner up for the AL MVP from 98 to 2000.

Crucis
08-01-2008, 11:14 AM
It was an overall good trade.

-We lose Craig Hansen: I wish he would have stayed and worked through his issues in AAA, but oh well. We can easily replace him on our team.

-We lose Brandon Moss: He was another David Murphy. He'll be a solid hitter vs. righties, but he would have never amounted to anything on our team. I'm glad to see him traded, as he can get serious at bats now.

-We gave up money: Money is absolutely, 110%, not an issue with Boston. Who cares.

-We gave up Ramirez, and in return, we got Bay: This is really the only player for player part that matters. We're now 7 years younger in LF, we picked up an all around good guy and teammate from everything we've heard. We're adding defense and a bit of speed, we're getting a cheaper contract that is also signed through 2009 (My favorite part), and he's putting up the same numbers age 29 that Ramirez is slowing down to put up at age 36.

The deal was not nearly as bad as some people want to think.

Also, we got back a righty power hitting OF in return, which allows the team to retain its L/R balance in the lineup. Also, because Bay's coming from a righty-UN friendly ballpark to a righty VERY friendly ballpack, and with the much better protection in the lineup, if he's hitting decently, Bay should be even more productive in Boston than he was in Pittsburgh.

Plus, I hope (assuming that Bay is productive) that the Sox will have a chance to sign him to a long term extension that would give the Sox a long term answer in LF for years to come.

Bosox Believer
08-01-2008, 11:17 AM
Plus, I hope (assuming that Bay is productive) that the Sox will have a chance to sign him to a long term extension that would give the Sox a long term answer in LF for years to come.

Unless I am mistaken, Bay is represented by Borris? I love this trade, but I'm skeptical that we will be able to extend if my fears are true...

redsox12
08-01-2008, 11:18 AM
He also frees up a nice chunk of change for winter acquisitions.

This is the key for me, I got to believe now we are getting Sheets or Sabathia in the offseason.

TheKid
08-01-2008, 11:33 AM
Rejoice! this was a good trade. Manny's value was down as he's an aging player on the downside of his career. However because he has such amazing talent, the "downside" of his career is still something most players would love to have as their career years (.300 30ish Hr 90-100 RBI).

So we trade a diminishing guy who wouldn't have been here next year, plus a young decent OF who was blocked and likely only going to be a 4th OF in Boston in the future anyways and a RP who wasn't able to find his mojo in his young career

for;

a young power hitting stud OF in the prime of his career who's under contract for an additional year.




Worse case scenario:

Manny hits 15-20 HRs along with another 50 RBIs for dodgers in the last 2 months, then signs with the Yankee's for 3-4 years and continues producing .300 30HRs and 90 RBIs for the next 2 seasons. Moss becomes a serviceable OF for the pirates and Hansen finally figures it out and nails down the closing job in pitt. meanwhile Bay is completely thrown off by the limelight of Boston and can not produce.

Best case Scenario:

Manny finishes the year continuing on his current pace, hits .300 with an additional 5-10 HRs and another 30 RBIs. Moss is never more then a spot starting OF, Hansen proves he's still not able to put it all together. Bay, energized by the limelight and his new righty-friendly park, has a monster finish to the season, resigns with the sox for an additional 3-4 years and provides the bat that we were all fearing we'd not get back in return.



So, obviously there are risks involved, but i believe the trade is going to rejuvenate the stagnate team and propel us to the playoffs and a shot at another WS title.

RedSoxtober
08-01-2008, 12:42 PM
-We lose Craig Hansen: I wish he would have stayed and worked through his issues in AAA, but oh well. We can easily replace him on our team.

-We lose Brandon Moss: He was another David Murphy. He'll be a solid hitter vs. righties, but he would have never amounted to anything on our team. I'm glad to see him traded, as he can get serious at bats now.


We know for sure that Moss could have been flipped for Mahay. Hansen was rumored in several deals. IMO their value for BOS lay not in their production in the uniform but the trades they could have been used in. Ex/ What if we could have sent Manny/Hansen and gotten Mahay? We're much better aren't we?

Dirty Dirk41
08-01-2008, 12:47 PM
From a Yankee standpoint its a great trade, now I don't gotta see manny kill us anymore...

Bay for Manny tho.... sounds like something you could pull off in a video game....lol what a joke...Nady's a better hitter then Bay is

Is Bay all use got back in return? Cuzz is so this has to be the worst trade in Red Sox history right next to babe ruth

LMAO..LOL...LOLOLOLOL


Nady is better than Bay?? u must only be saying that because Nady went to NY...Bay is a Much Much Much butter player in every aspect of the game of baseball

sboyajian
08-01-2008, 12:57 PM
I understand your point, and am not looking to argue with you, but how can you say Nomar wasn't the star of the team? He was runner up for the AL MVP from 98 to 2000.

Definately not arguing.. just back and forth friendly banter. :)

Nomar was the star, but that shipped sailed before he was traded.

LA Sox Fan
08-01-2008, 01:12 PM
The people that are ripping this trade seem to be doing it because Manny is a future first ballot HOF while Bay isn't. But the Dodgers didn't just get a 25-year-old Manny who is about to go on a decade long run of amazing stats. They got a 36-year-old who can still hit (in the clutch too) but is deficient in many aspects of the game including fielding, base running, hustle and baseball IQ. Bay's numbers this season at the plate are on par with Manny's (more HR, lower BA) and he is a vast improvement over Manny in those other areas mentioned above. We don't know about Bay's ability in the clutch because he played in Pittsburgh where they haven't had a clutch baseball situation since the early 90's.

I'm glad to have watched Manny play and I'm appreciative of all the things that the Sox accomplished while he was here. But we all know that he was a cancer who put himself ahead of the team, faked injuries and wasn't committed to helping the Sox defend their WS title. I just think it's missing the point to compare these players based on their careers as opposed to what they bring to the table right now in 2008.

BoSox2212
08-01-2008, 01:45 PM
The people that are ripping this trade seem to be doing it because Manny is a future first ballot HOF while Bay isn't. But the Dodgers didn't just get a 25-year-old Manny who is about to go on a decade long run of amazing stats. They got a 36-year-old who can still hit (in the clutch too) but is deficient in many aspects of the game including fielding, base running, hustle and baseball IQ. Bay's numbers this season at the plate are on par with Manny's (more HR, lower BA) and he is a vast improvement over Manny in those other areas mentioned above. We don't know about Bay's ability in the clutch because he played in Pittsburgh where they haven't had a clutch baseball situation since the early 90's.

I'm glad to have watched Manny play and I'm appreciative of all the things that the Sox accomplished while he was here. But we all know that he was a cancer who put himself ahead of the team, faked injuries and wasn't committed to helping the Sox defend their WS title. I just think it's missing the point to compare these players based on their careers as opposed to what they bring to the table right now in 2008.

Thank you. Sometimes Red Sox fans have to understand that management works out of numbers, not emotions. Theo and co. are trying to replicate what the patriots are able to do, sign the best players for the job at the moment and the future; thats how you win championships. Why do you think we did not sign Trot, Pedro, Damon, etc.?

Tragedy
08-01-2008, 02:32 PM
Unless I am mistaken, Bay is represented by Borris? I love this trade, but I'm skeptical that we will be able to extend if my fears are true...
No, Bay is not represented by Boras.

BostonFan 53
08-01-2008, 03:08 PM
How can u give it an overall b?????

Hmmm let's see we gave up 3 players for Bay pretty much
Dodgers gave up 2 for Manny
The pirates received 4 for Bay


So you are telling me manny was worth laroche and whoever else while Bay is worth those 4???? 4get dat

Like I said: we clearly lost the trade in terms of talent. But considering the circumstances it was a good trade. It certainly could've gotten better.

Lord Byron 34
08-01-2008, 06:47 PM
I do not see the problem with this trade. First of all, $7 mil to the red sox is meaningless. It's pocket change. Secondly, neither Hansen or Moss is anything to be angry about losing. Here is Keith Law (who, in my opinion is one of the best analysts ESPN has, and is also a very good judge of talent) on Moss and Hansen:

Craig Hansen was a first-rounder in 2005 and could have gone in the top 10 had he not demanded a $4 million bonus. That allowed him to fall to the Red Sox, who gave him his money and a major league contract. But although he has a strong arm, poor command and a stiff delivery have led to bad performances in the majors. He typically throws 93-96 mph and flashes an outstanding slider, but for every good slider he throws, two back up on him. He has an above-average changeup in the upper 80s with good fade, but he rarely uses it. The Craig Hansen I've seen endless times in Boston isn't a big league pitcher, but he's worth a shot.
Brandon Moss should slot in as the everyday left fielder in Pittsburgh, but he projects more as a quality fourth outfielder on a good team. He has fringe-average power and plate discipline, and would be an everyday player if he could play center, but his bat doesn't quite profile like an everyday corner outfielder's. He probably will need a right-handed platoon partner if the Pirates want to play him every day against right-handed pitchers.

So Keith Law says we lost a AAA reliever and a 4th outfielder. Not a terrible price to pay to get Manny to be Manny elsewhere.

Sportfan
08-02-2008, 03:48 PM
it's ok

Mr.drew
08-02-2008, 05:20 PM
after seeing Bay handle himself at the press confernce and how he did during the game i have ne problem with it at all. we were going to lose manny at the end of the year anyway. we were losing with manny so why does it matter if we lose with Bay. good job theo:clap:

futureheisman
09-01-2008, 04:53 PM
i think its an A right now with how the red sox have played and how Bay has produced since he has been here

Vthockeydad
09-01-2008, 05:12 PM
It was a tough trade to make but Theo had to get rid of Manny. I, like many Sox fans used to say since Manny was such a great hitter, we can put up with some BS, but the more I heard, he is a loser and was a cancer on the team. How can any decent adult, lay down like he did on the Sox especially when being paid $20 mill a year. Oh, my mistake, he obviously is not a true adult or self respecting anyway. As if he needs the money. Good riddance Manny.
Looking back now, Bay has been great, both offensively and defensively. The Sox gave up a lot, but Manny's teammates wanted him gone !

NESports2004
09-01-2008, 10:54 PM
why bring up a month old thread

Crucis
09-01-2008, 11:13 PM
Maybe to reconsider The Trade after a month has passed. I think that it's a valid topic for discussion.