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JordansBulls
07-28-2008, 11:16 PM
Voting for #10 has concluded and PSD's Official #10 Player of all time is....


Tim Duncan

http://www.nba.com/media/act_tim_duncan.jpg


21.6 PPG / 11.8 RPG / 2.4 BPG / .508 FG / 25.10 PER


Achievements:

10 time All-Star
4 NBA Championships
2 Time MVP
3 Time Finals MVP
1 Time Allstar game MVP
9 Time All-NBA First Teamer
8 Time Defensive First Teamer
Rookie of the Year
#1 in Active Defensive Win Shares
#1 in RPG among active players




Tim Duncan = 53 votes
Kobe Bryant = 33 votes
Julius Erving = 10 votes
Jerry West = 6 votes
Karl Malone = 4 votes
Moses Malone = 1 vote
John Havlicek = 2 vote
George Mikan = 1 vote
Elgin Baylor = 1 vote
Other = 1 vote



The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242529)
2. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243543)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244377)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245662)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246661)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247634)
7. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248716)
8. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249523)
9. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250480)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251417)


Voting will now begin for the Eleventh greatest player of all time....

Westbrook36
07-28-2008, 11:16 PM
No Poll :shrug:

Afridi786
07-28-2008, 11:17 PM
^Maybe wait for more than a minute.

phlp_bj
07-28-2008, 11:19 PM
in my opinion, this is between kobe, west and erving. i give the edge to kobe since its harder to play now than it was back then

Westbrook36
07-28-2008, 11:20 PM
Dr.J

sanfranfan1210
07-28-2008, 11:25 PM
Erving

PhillyLuver
07-28-2008, 11:39 PM
My man Julius

Ramon Nivar
07-28-2008, 11:48 PM
Dr. J counting the ABA.

Dirty Dirk41
07-28-2008, 11:59 PM
i voted DR. J. this list is ******** though. it pretty much proves people on these forums dont know history. Kobe getting votes. DUNCAN AND SHQ TOP TEN ALL TIME?????? lol wow

BillyHoyle35
07-29-2008, 12:07 AM
i voted DR. J. this list is ******** though. it pretty much proves people on these forums dont know history. Kobe getting votes. DUNCAN AND SHQ TOP TEN ALL TIME?????? lol wow

tim duncan surely deserves to be top 10, it is clear you don't truly understand how good he is as well as how good his achievements are.

marvILLous
07-29-2008, 12:08 AM
Dr. J

THE MTL
07-29-2008, 12:09 AM
This list needs to be fixed. Where is Isiah Thomas and Nate Archibald.

Anyway, i'm voting for Julius Erving.

Liney3506
07-29-2008, 12:22 AM
I also wish that Laker fans weren't allowed to vote :pity:

dre1990
07-29-2008, 12:22 AM
again my list would be different and a few players on this would have been picked before,so im picking erving

Ramon Nivar
07-29-2008, 12:25 AM
This list needs to be fixed. Where is Isiah Thomas and Nate Archibald.

Anyway, i'm voting for Julius Erving.

Isaiah is 5th from the bottom and why does it matter where they are if you aren't voting for them?

McPeak92
07-29-2008, 12:29 AM
Doc.

AgentViet
07-29-2008, 12:40 AM
Dr J or West, I'm going with Erving.

SHONIE
07-29-2008, 12:43 AM
Kobe is close

THE MTL
07-29-2008, 12:58 AM
Wow, look how close Kobe is again. Laker fans shouldnt be allowed to vote. Some Lakers Fans (not all) all suck Kobe dick. Really shouldnt be voting.

kobe2008mvp
07-29-2008, 01:01 AM
WHY ARE YOU BIASED AGAINST KOBE PEOPLE ALL HE DOES IS AMAZE YOU THERE IS NO WAY DR.J SHOULD WIN THIS OR WEST I SAW JERRY WEST WHEN I WAS YOUNGER AND ALL HE DID WAS TAKE IT INTO THE FRONT COURT AND SHOT THE J. DR.J SHOULDN'T BE PUT OVER KOBE EITHER BECAUSE HE HASN'T WON MORE TITLES THAN KOBE. ISN'T THIS WHAT THIS THREAD IS BASED ON wwwwwiiinnnnniiiinnnnggg! SO MY VOTE GOES TO KOBE SURE I'M A LAKERS FAN BUT THERE ARE LIKE 5 OTHER LAKERS AND I CHOSE KOBE BEACUSE OF HIS TALENT AND BECAUSE HE'S THE ONLY OE THAT COULD REALLY ONLY BE COMPARED TO MJ!!

Ramon Nivar
07-29-2008, 01:03 AM
WHY ARE YOU BIASED AGAINST KOBE PEOPLE ALL HE DOES IS AMAZE YOU THERE IS NO WAY DR.J SHOULD WIN THIS OR WEST I SAW JERRY WEST WHEN I WAS YOUNGER AND ALL HE DID WAS TAKE IT INTO THE FRONT COURT AND SHOT THE J. DR.J SHOULDN'T BE PUT OVER KOBE EITHER BECAUSE HE HASN'T WON MORE TITLES THAN KOBE. ISN'T THIS WHAT THIS THREAD IS BASED ON wwwwwiiinnnnniiiinnnnggg! SO MY VOTE GOES TO KOBE SURE I'M A LAKERS FAN BUT THERE ARE LIKE 5 OTHER LAKERS AND I CHOSE KOBE BEACUSE OF HIS TALENT AND BECAUSE HE'S THE ONLY OE THAT COULD REALLY ONLY BE COMPARED TO MJ!!

Dr. J and Kobe have both won it all 3 times.

Westbrook36
07-29-2008, 01:07 AM
WHY ARE YOU BIASED AGAINST KOBE PEOPLE ALL HE DOES IS AMAZE YOU THERE IS NO WAY DR.J SHOULD WIN THIS OR WEST I SAW JERRY WEST WHEN I WAS YOUNGER AND ALL HE DID WAS TAKE IT INTO THE FRONT COURT AND SHOT THE J. DR.J SHOULDN'T BE PUT OVER KOBE EITHER BECAUSE HE HASN'T WON MORE TITLES THAN KOBE. ISN'T THIS WHAT THIS THREAD IS BASED ON wwwwwiiinnnnniiiinnnnggg! SO MY VOTE GOES TO KOBE SURE I'M A LAKERS FAN BUT THERE ARE LIKE 5 OTHER LAKERS AND I CHOSE KOBE BEACUSE OF HIS TALENT AND BECAUSE HE'S THE ONLY OE THAT COULD REALLY ONLY BE COMPARED TO MJ!!

:laugh: :laugh: Dr.J Is the Doc, just SIMPLY Amazing. Just Stop Please, Doc Won Three Rings too. Shows that you know alot about history? :rolleyes:

RocketsRule
07-29-2008, 01:10 AM
Dr. J gets my vote. Jerry West is a close second...

Kobe should be like a 15 player.

innovator
07-29-2008, 05:58 AM
i voted DR. J. this list is ******** though. it pretty much proves people on these forums dont know history. Kobe getting votes. DUNCAN AND SHQ TOP TEN ALL TIME?????? lol wow

so is it kobe,shaq,duncan's fault that guys like erving played before them?

this thread is starting to be like a kobe haters vs. kobe lovers poll!

DR.J9
07-29-2008, 08:31 AM
Dr.j!!!!!!!!!!

AirJordanXVIII
07-29-2008, 08:36 AM
Dr. Jullius Erving.

Mile High Champ
07-29-2008, 08:54 AM
No love for Karl Malone.. come on... Kobe already the 11th best player ever? Come on, there are way too many kids voting that never saw or maye heard of half the guys on this list. My vote is for either Malone or Erving.

phlp_bj
07-29-2008, 08:57 AM
DR.J and Kobe wow. well one of them is going to win and the other will take the 12th

dawgsfan_45
07-29-2008, 11:11 AM
I had to go with kobe. I just dont think Dr.J could play as well now

Westbrook36
07-29-2008, 12:08 PM
I had to go with kobe. I just dont think Dr.J could play as well now

He would be EVEN BETTER, You can sweet talk Refs now but you couldnt do it back then. Refs were gods to people like Malone, Dr.J and all the Older Ballers. I think he would be an even better player if not the same

fresh prince
07-29-2008, 01:06 PM
Kobe Bean Bryant.. He's the best and most accomplished player on the list

Chronz
07-29-2008, 01:33 PM
This thing has gotten to the point where Im not even voting for who I think should win, Im just voting for the least absurdity to win

marlinsfan24
07-29-2008, 01:37 PM
Kobe or Dr J. I cannot really choose cuz i didnt get to see Doc play. But the funny thing about this list is, at the end of Kobe's career, he will have been the greatest NBA player ever, but he still wont get any respect lmao

dawgsfan_45
07-29-2008, 01:45 PM
He would be EVEN BETTER, You can sweet talk Refs now but you couldnt do it back then. Refs were gods to people like Malone, Dr.J and all the Older Ballers. I think he would be an even better player if not the same

Sorry, but i dont think refs come in to play when you talk about how good a player is.

dawgsfan_45
07-29-2008, 01:47 PM
EDIT: double post

still1ballin
07-29-2008, 01:47 PM
So much hating on kobe! Wow, if kobe was on your guys favorite teams, you would then realize what us laker fans talk about......if there is always a comparison between jordan and kobe, how can you compare dr. j and kobe?.....so was dr. j as good as jordan? or close?

MKAUF280
07-29-2008, 01:50 PM
i voted DR. J. this list is ******** though. it pretty much proves people on these forums dont know history. Kobe getting votes. DUNCAN AND SHQ TOP TEN ALL TIME?????? lol wow

I agree with Kobe. He should not be in consideration for top 10 of all time. But Shaq not top 10? Are you mental?
People on this forum want to have intercourse with Kobe Bryant, thats the only reason he gets votes.

JIDsanity
07-29-2008, 01:52 PM
jerry west

daleja424
07-29-2008, 01:52 PM
LOL at all the lakers fans voting for Kobe... To this point Doc-J, Thomas, Malone (both), and probably west should be ahead of Kobe. Maybe in 10 years it will be different...

JIDsanity
07-29-2008, 01:54 PM
Dr. J would rape Kobe on the court.

fresh prince
07-29-2008, 03:17 PM
DR. J couldn't even go Left and neither could West...Jerry West also admits Kobe Bryant is the best player he's ever seen!

Malone choked in the playoffs and has 0 rings! Isiah THomas or Elgin Baylor are the only players still on the list that even warrant consideration over Kobe

GregOden#1
07-29-2008, 04:11 PM
DR. J couldn't even go Left and neither could West...Jerry West also admits Kobe Bryant is the best player he's ever seen!

Malone choked in the playoffs and has 0 rings! Isiah THomas or Elgin Baylor are the only players still on the list that even warrant consideration over Kobe

Are you kidding me....

JordansBulls
07-29-2008, 04:23 PM
DR. J couldn't even go Left and neither could West...Jerry West also admits Kobe Bryant is the best player he's ever seen!




Check the 1:30 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquLVr3MeGk&feature=related


Also here was another one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=

(I'm not sure on the one above, I can't see Youtube at work but I remember I did save it) Check to see if that was the one where West is coming on MJ.

But the first one I remember.

LAKERMANIA
07-29-2008, 04:27 PM
Check the 1:30 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquLVr3MeGk&feature=related


Also here was another one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=

(I'm not sure on the one above, I can't see Youtube at work but I remember I did save it) Check to see if that was the one where West is coming on MJ.

But the first one I remember.

that was in 1998.. people change their minds whenever they want.. and if i could find the video i would, sorry man, but West did say that about Kobe

GregOden#1
07-29-2008, 04:29 PM
that was in 1998.. people change their minds whenever they want.. and if i could find the video i would, sorry man, but West did say that about Kobe

Taking NBA players opinions with anything but a grain of salt is a terrible argument. ANYONE who does so is drawing at straws.

ejdacanay
07-29-2008, 04:30 PM
Had to go with Kobe. Still going very strong, complete player. Swingman can do everything.

JordansBulls
07-29-2008, 04:31 PM
that was in 1998.. people change their minds whenever they want.. and if i could find the video i would, sorry man, but West did say that about Kobe

I actually remember a thread in the Lakers forum where West mentioned that he didn't know who was better between Magic and Kobe.

Lakersfan2483
07-29-2008, 04:47 PM
I actually remember a thread in the Lakers forum where West mentioned that he didn't know who was better between Magic and Kobe.

I can honestly say I respect your basketball analysis, most of the people on hear making comments are very ignorant in terms of their basketball knowledge.

Lakersfan2483
07-29-2008, 04:49 PM
Karl Malone and Dr. J are not top ten players and neither is Kobe for the moment, but Kobe is better than what most of these ignorant people give him credit for. Kobe is no. 12 on my list.

Lakersfan2483
07-29-2008, 04:50 PM
Karl Malone is a top 15 player.

Lakersfan2483
07-29-2008, 04:52 PM
Wow, look how close Kobe is again. Laker fans shouldnt be allowed to vote. Some Lakers Fans (not all) all suck Kobe dick. Really shouldnt be voting.

The definition of an uneducated sports fan who should not be voting.

yaowowrocket11
07-29-2008, 04:54 PM
Jerry West easily. The fact that Kobe is beating him by a large margin is pathetic, but predictable.

fresh prince
07-29-2008, 05:19 PM
I actually remember a thread in the Lakers forum where West mentioned that he didn't know who was better between Magic and Kobe.

Yea..Jerry is getting up there in age but in his most recent interview From February this year..Which doesnt seem to be online anywhere he said he could'nt call it between Kobe and Jordan...But that Kobe is the best player that he has ever seen... He also said it again after we beat the Spurs at the WCF (I was at Staples) celebration but that could have been the emotion or free drinks talking

Heres a pic of that sit down and some of his other quotes:

http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/archives/2008/02/jerry-west-unpl.html

fresh prince
07-29-2008, 05:22 PM
I actually remember a thread in the Lakers forum where West mentioned that he didn't know who was better between Magic and Kobe.

And to answer for Jerry..Magic is the true GOAT. So Magic is the choice

JordansBulls
07-29-2008, 05:38 PM
And to answer for Jerry..Magic is the true GOAT. So Magic is the choice

Funny you should say that, because even after Magic retired, Jerry said the following:

Check the 1:30 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquLVr3MeGk&feature=related

Oh and Pat Riley as well

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0565oawy9Ak


This is why you can't take quotes from others seriously because anyone can say anything depending on what is going on at the time.

That was from Pat Riley someone who coached Kareem and Magic.

fresh prince
07-29-2008, 05:49 PM
Agreed but the quotes I was citing were Jerry's admission that Kobe is a better ball player than he was.. Those you can take seriously..

GregOden#1
07-29-2008, 06:14 PM
Agreed but the quotes I was citing were Jerry's admission that Kobe is a better ball player than he was.. Those you can take seriously..

No...you cant...

juggla53
07-29-2008, 06:26 PM
i voted DR. J. this list is ******** though. it pretty much proves people on these forums dont know history. Kobe getting votes. DUNCAN AND SHQ TOP TEN ALL TIME?????? lol wow



Your ******** if you dont think tim duncan is top 10 of alltime

ARMIN12NBA
07-29-2008, 06:27 PM
No...you cant...

If Jerry West feels that Kobe is a better ball player than he was then that is the way he feels and you can't throw that into the garbage. Jerry West has always felt strongly of Kobe since his workout with the Lakers in 96 and I am pretty sure West knows his own game better than any one of you guys. If he feels that Kobe is a better overall player then that is the way he feels.

bagwell368
07-29-2008, 09:24 PM
I don't think Julius is in the top 15, but anything to stop putrescent Kobe from getting it.

lalakobe24
07-29-2008, 09:30 PM
I don't think Julius is in the top 15, but anything to stop putrescent Kobe from getting it.

so yu voted dr j just cause yu hate kobe lol

LAKERMANIA
07-29-2008, 09:45 PM
No...you cant...

:rolleyes: genius.. sheer genius

OaklandsFinest
07-29-2008, 09:52 PM
And as of now Kobe is not a top 15 player!!!! He may one day be a top 3 player, but he is a GREAT scorer who is riding the coat tails of what Shaq accomplished when he was in LA. If the Lakers could not win 3 in a row with that team it would be a travesty. You saw Kobe Bryant in his clearest form in the NBA Finals against Boston and Detroit. Against Detroit he was bodied by Tayshaun Prince, and tried to dominate the series. Yet everytime Shaq got the ball down low Ben Wallace could not handle him. Then against Boston, Kobe gave up atleast twice and got run over. Top 20 players don't give up in NBA finals.

lalakobe24
07-29-2008, 09:54 PM
And as of now Kobe is not a top 15 player!!!! He may one day be a top 3 player, but he is a GREAT scorer who is riding the coat tails of what Shaq accomplished when he was in LA. If the Lakers could not win 3 in a row with that team it would be a travesty. You saw Kobe Bryant in his clearest form in the NBA Finals against Boston and Detroit. Against Detroit he was bodied by Tayshaun Prince, and tried to dominate the series. Yet everytime Shaq got the ball down low Ben Wallace could not handle him. Then against Boston, Kobe gave up atleast twice and got run over. Top 20 players don't give up in NBA finals.

still kobe>dr j haha anyway yu put it hes still better

GregOden#1
07-29-2008, 10:46 PM
I'm still waiting to hear why Kobe should be voted in here, come on Kobe fans you can do better than this.

LAKERMANIA
07-29-2008, 11:05 PM
I'm still waiting to hear why Kobe should be voted in here, come on Kobe fans you can do better than this.

because

a) you underrate him more than most kobe fans overrate him
b) because i like seeing you get pissed over a top 20 list in a sports forum
c) because most people vote mainly for the reason of kobe not being in the top 15.. which is sad
d) because you believe oscar robertson is better than kobe when he road Alcindor's coat tails to win only one title when kobe road shaq to 3..

well whether or not you like it kobe will be 11th..so suck it up

Westbrook36
07-29-2008, 11:56 PM
Dr.J should of Won..Bull

AllTheWay
07-30-2008, 12:32 AM
I'm still waiting to hear why Kobe should be voted in here, come on Kobe fans you can do better than this.

3 Time NBA Champion
1 Regular Season MVP
2 All-Star MVPs
2 Scoring Titles
10 All-Star Games
10 Consecutive All-Star Appearances
10 Time All NBA selection
6 All NBA First Team Selection
2 All NBA Second Team Selections
2 All NBA Third Team Selections
8 All Defensive Team selections
6 Defensive First Team selections
2 Defensive second team selections
NBA All Rookie Second Team- 1997
NBA Slam Dunk Champion- 1997
Scored the second highest Point total in NBA history- 81 Points
Led NBA in Total Points in 4 Seasons(2003, 2006, 2007, and 2008)
Holds the NBA record for most 3 pointers in one game: 12(tied with Donyell Marshall)
Most 3 pointers made in one half: 8(shared with 6 players)
Most consecutive three-point field goals made, one game: 9(shared with Sprewell and Ben Gordon)
Most free throws made, one quarter: 14 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; shared with 6 players)
Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 16 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; shared with 6 players)
Youngest player to score 15,000 points: (27 Years, 136 days)
Youngest player to score 20,000 points: (29 years, 122 days old), surpassing Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record. Bryant also became one of the only three players to reach the milestone under the age of 30. The other two are Chamberlain (29 years, 134 days old) and Michael Jordan (29 years, 326 days old)
Youngest Slam Dunk champion: (18 years, 175 days)
Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team
Youngest player to start a game: (18 Years, 158 days)


Kobe Bryant holds or shares 30 Los Angeles Lakers franchise records:

Points
Season: 2,832 (2005–06)
Game: 81
Half: 55
Quarter: 30
Field goals made
Half: 18
Quarter: 11
Free throws made
Game: 23
Game, playoffs: 21
Half: 16
Quarter: 14
Quarter, playoffs: 11
Consecutive: 62
Three-point field goals made and attempted
Career: 1,086 (1996–present)
Career, playoffs: 177 (1996–present)
Game: 12
Half: 8
Consecutive: 9
Season attempts: 518 (2005–06)
Game attempts: 18
Steals
Half: 6
Quarter, playoffs: 3


Career 50 Point Games: 24
Career 60 Point Games: 4


Thats Kobe's case for #11

homestarunner93
07-30-2008, 12:57 AM
3 Time NBA Champion
1 Regular Season MVP
2 All-Star MVPs
2 Scoring Titles
10 All-Star Games
10 Consecutive All-Star Appearances
10 Time All NBA selection
6 All NBA First Team Selection
2 All NBA Second Team Selections
2 All NBA Third Team Selections
8 All Defensive Team selections
6 Defensive First Team selections
2 Defensive second team selections
NBA All Rookie Second Team- 1997
NBA Slam Dunk Champion- 1997
Scored the second highest Point total in NBA history- 81 Points
Led NBA in Total Points in 4 Seasons(2003, 2006, 2007, and 2008)
Holds the NBA record for most 3 pointers in one game: 12(tied with Donyell Marshall)
Most 3 pointers made in one half: 8(shared with 6 players)
Most consecutive three-point field goals made, one game: 9(shared with Sprewell and Ben Gordon)
Most free throws made, one quarter: 14 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; shared with 6 players)
Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 16 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; shared with 6 players)
Youngest player to score 15,000 points: (27 Years, 136 days)
Youngest player to score 20,000 points: (29 years, 122 days old), surpassing Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record. Bryant also became one of the only three players to reach the milestone under the age of 30. The other two are Chamberlain (29 years, 134 days old) and Michael Jordan (29 years, 326 days old)
Youngest Slam Dunk champion: (18 years, 175 days)
Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team
Youngest player to start a game: (18 Years, 158 days)

Kobe Bryant holds or shares 30 Los Angeles Lakers franchise records:

Points
Season: 2,832 (2005–06)
Game: 81
Half: 55
Quarter: 30
Field goals made
Half: 18
Quarter: 11
Free throws made
Game: 23
Game, playoffs: 21
Half: 16
Quarter: 14
Quarter, playoffs: 11
Consecutive: 62
Three-point field goals made and attempted
Career: 1,086 (1996–present)
Career, playoffs: 177 (1996–present)
Game: 12
Half: 8
Consecutive: 9
Season attempts: 518 (2005–06)
Game attempts: 18
Steals
Half: 6
Quarter, playoffs: 3


Career 50 Point Games: 24
Career 60 Point Games: 4


Thats Kobe's case for #11

Let's see, well why don't we add Donyell Marshall, Ben Gordon, and Latrell Sprewell to the list then? I don't buy "youngest player" records for GOAT rankings.

AllTheWay
07-30-2008, 01:00 AM
wow, uh theyre still great achievments, were talking about #11, not #1

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 01:16 AM
Let's see, well why don't we add Donyell Marshall, Ben Gordon, and Latrell Sprewell to the list then? I don't buy "youngest player" records for GOAT rankings.

well if you want to go with Finals MVPs then we should add Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker and Paul Pierce to the list

LAKERS 24/7
07-30-2008, 01:39 AM
lotta hate goin around. kobe is comapared to jordan constantly for a reason

innovator
07-30-2008, 07:08 AM
kobe from overated now being underated by many PSD posters.... just because dr.j played first people are saying that he is better and he should be respected... it isnt kobes fault that dr.j is way older than him

nrvana
07-30-2008, 08:02 AM
i put john stockton.. that guy was a fundamentally sound beast.. and i feel he's not given enough credit since the mailman was doing all the scoring

JordansBulls
07-30-2008, 08:38 AM
well if you want to go with Finals MVPs then we should add Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker and Paul Pierce to the list

Those guys don't have the resume.

Pierce, Parker and Billups have 1 finals mvp a piece but none of them have dominated the finals and haven't had a great season in comparison with the other elite guys in the league. Neither of them have ever finished top 3 in MVP voting ever.

innovator
07-30-2008, 09:30 AM
to those who voted for dr.j put some facts dont just say that he was a beast when he was playing blah blah blah... people who have voted for kobe already have posted kobe's accomplishments and etc.

JordansBulls
07-30-2008, 09:37 AM
Here is a measure of greatness that I put together.

Top 3 in the MVP voting.

So it seems like this:

Jordan - 10 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1987-1993, 1996-1998)

Magic - 9 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1983-1991)

Bird - 8 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1981-1988)

It does not have to be consecutive, but for these three guys it turns out to be all of their top 3 finishes are consecutive.

Kareem - 9
Russell - 9
Wilt - 7

Malone, Oscar, Pettit, Shaq, Duncan, West - 5

DRob, Moses, Baylor - 4

Dr, J, Cowens, Gervin, Garnett, McAdoo, Nash - 3

Barkley, Hakeem, Kobe - 3

(There could be a few I might have missed but it's pretty much like this)

Seems to me that it's a pretty good indication of dominance.

Any thoughts?

innovator
07-30-2008, 09:42 AM
yeah thats a great way to see how great a player is but u also gotta consider who they are playing with, cuz guys like pippen can also be a serious MVP contender if he wasnt playing behind MJ for so long and stockton and kobe and so on.

JordansBulls
07-30-2008, 09:46 AM
yeah thats a great way to see how great a player is but u also gotta consider who they are playing with, cuz guys like pippen can also be a serious MVP contender if he wasnt playing behind MJ for so long and stockton and kobe and so on.

True, but you gotta base things on what has actually happened though when talking about players rankings among the greats.

mightybosstone
07-30-2008, 09:54 AM
Its Erving.... Lakers' fans dominate the voting. :pity: I actually don't think Kobe should even be in the discussion until we get into the high teens.

innovator
07-30-2008, 10:01 AM
mightyboss care to prove why erving?

mightybosstone
07-30-2008, 10:06 AM
mightyboss care to prove why erving?

Because he's the predecessor the Jordan's and the Kobe's. He made the NBA electric and exciting and brought the dunk into the mix. Without Erving, we might have a completely different NBA today...

If that's not enough for you, how about 30,000 points, 3x ABA and 1x NBA MVP, 2x ABA and 1x NBA championships, and career averages of 22 points and 6.7 rebounds per game...

dawgsfan_45
07-30-2008, 10:26 AM
The only reason I voted for Kobe is that he puts up GREAT number still in the ERA of the NBA we are in now. The game has changed sooo much. Players are stronger, faster, and more physical. Now if you want to talk about who CHANGED the game more, obviously you have to go with the doctor or Jerry West. But, we're talking about the BEST players. In NO WAY AT ALL is it ******** for kobe to be 11th. Kobe has lead the league MANY times in PPG (usually 28-30) in the game today. I have a feeling some of yall just dont like kobe, i dont like him very much myself, but he is deserving of this spot.

mightybosstone
07-30-2008, 10:31 AM
But this isn't the "best" NBA players, its' the "greatest". Any discussion of greatness should include their impact on the overall game and overlooking this and overlooking the game's history is ridiculous.

AllTheWay
07-30-2008, 11:51 AM
Here is a measure of greatness that I put together.

Top 3 in the MVP voting.

So it seems like this:

Jordan - 10 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1987-1993, 1996-1998)

Magic - 9 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1983-1991)

Bird - 8 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1981-1988)

It does not have to be consecutive, but for these three guys it turns out to be all of their top 3 finishes are consecutive.

Kareem - 9
Russell - 9
Wilt - 7

Malone, Oscar, Pettit, Shaq, Duncan, West - 5

DRob, Moses, Baylor - 4

Dr, J, Cowens, Gervin, Garnett, McAdoo, Nash - 3

Barkley, Hakeem, Kobe - 3

(There could be a few I might have missed but it's pretty much like this)

Seems to me that it's a pretty good indication of dominance.

Any thoughts?


MVP criteria has changed throughout the years, All these players were dominant, but Kobe's best statisical season only earned him 4th...

fresh prince
07-30-2008, 12:47 PM
Here is a measure of greatness that I put together.

Top 3 in the MVP voting.

So it seems like this:

Jordan - 10 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1987-1993, 1996-1998)

Magic - 9 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1983-1991)

Bird - 8 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1981-1988)

It does not have to be consecutive, but for these three guys it turns out to be all of their top 3 finishes are consecutive.

Kareem - 9
Russell - 9
Wilt - 7

Malone, Oscar, Pettit, Shaq, Duncan, West - 5

DRob, Moses, Baylor - 4

Dr, J, Cowens, Gervin, Garnett, McAdoo, Nash - 3

Barkley, Hakeem, Kobe - 3

(There could be a few I might have missed but it's pretty much like this)

Seems to me that it's a pretty good indication of dominance.

Any thoughts?

YES THE NBA MVP has mostly been a Joke..I wouldnt use that as an accurate measurement of greatness.

In 2005 - 2006 Kobe Bryant had the most dominate season (35.4 PPG.) in 20 plus years only to finish 4th in MVP voting...

http://www.nba.com/news/nash_mvp_05-06.html

The NBA MVP is a team success award it doesn't gauge individual dominance. Like with MLB and NFL

fresh prince
07-30-2008, 12:50 PM
The only reason I voted for Kobe is that he puts up GREAT number still. The game has changes sooo much. Players are stronger, faster, and more physical. Now if you want to talk about who CHANGED the game more, obviously you have to go with the doctor or Jerry West. But, we're talking about the BEST players. In NO WAY AT ALL is it ******** for kobe to be 11th. Kobe has lead the league MANY times in PPG (usually 28-30) in the game today. I have a feeling some of yall just dont like kobe, i dont like him very much myself, but he is deserving of this spot.

Well said... Too many People cant separate their emotions and feelings about a person they don't know and have never met. To just recognize greatness. Its a reflection on the maturity level of the people who hate.

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 12:58 PM
Jesus, you guys are acting like we are voting Kobe in first.. its 11th, relax, you guys got your top 10 with no Kobe in it..

Honestly i dont see how Dr. J is better than Kobe.. I think the only reason people vote for Dr. J is because they want to look like they know something about the past, because they are all scared of being bashed.. If you said Jerry West is better than Kobe, i would give you that, but Dr. J? he is not top 15 GOAT..

JordansBulls
07-30-2008, 01:03 PM
YES THE NBA MVP has mostly been a Joke..I wouldnt use that as an accurate measurement of greatness.

In 2005 - 2006 Kobe Bryant had the most dominate season (35.4 PPG.) in 20 plus years only to finish 4th in MVP voting...

http://www.nba.com/news/nash_mvp_05-06.html

The NBA MVP is a team success award it doesn't gauge individual dominance. Like with MLB and NFL

Why is it a joke? Should we just erase all the MVP winners since 2005?

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 01:04 PM
Why is it a joke? Should we just erase all the MVP winners since 2005?

no its just not a big deal in modern basketball..

dawgsfan_45
07-30-2008, 01:06 PM
Jesus, you guys are acting like we are voting Kobe in first.. its 11th, relax, you guys got your top 10 with no Kobe in it..

Honestly i dont see how Dr. J is better than Kobe.. I think the only reason people vote for Dr. J is because they want to look like they know something about the past, because they are all scared of being bashed.. If you said Jerry West is better than Kobe, i would give you that, but Dr. J? he is not top 15 GOAT..

I think they are both better than West

PHX-SOXFAN
07-30-2008, 01:06 PM
dr. J

give me a break with the kobephiles

JordansBulls
07-30-2008, 01:10 PM
I'm kinda shocked that Dr J is getting this much love unless everyone is counting his ABA days as well. Moses Malone and Jerry West were still better.

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 01:12 PM
I'm kinda shocked that Dr J is getting this much love unless everyone is counting his ABA days as well. Moses Malone and Jerry West were still better.

agreed..

The Logo and Moses are much better than Dr. J

lalakobe24
07-30-2008, 01:17 PM
there only voting dr j to stop kobe from getting it

i think kobe deserves it but jerry west is also great

JordansBulls
07-30-2008, 01:21 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking of changing the format though after this so that people just don't randomly vote.

I don't think we will go up 100 because I would like to start in late august with the predictions for the nba season like we did last year.

Sort of like here where the whole forum does a vote.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142335


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146123


I think we may go up to top 25 if that and stop.

PHX-SOXFAN
07-30-2008, 01:26 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking of changing the format though after this so that people just don't randomly vote.

I don't think we will go up 100 because I would like to start in late august with the predictions for the nba season like we did last year.

Sort of like here where the whole forum does a vote.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142335


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146123


I think we may go up to top 25 if that and stop.

could you also add a rule that you cannot vote for a player on your favorite team? This would make for a completely unbiased poll.:clap::clap:

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 01:28 PM
could you also add a rule that you cannot vote for a player on your favorite team? This would make for a completely unbiased poll.:clap::clap:

lol, there is no such thing as an unbiased poll, if people are going to vote top 25 of all time, there will be biases, you guys knew what you were getting into when making these type of threads

how about we add a rule saying "Dont vote for the person who already has majority of the votes, so another player doesn't get it.."

then a lot of posters will vote with their minds, and not with the fact that "so and so is close to beating someone else so i will vote for him"

PHX-SOXFAN
07-30-2008, 01:31 PM
lol, there is no such thing as an unbiased poll, if people are going to vote top 25 of all time, there will be biases, you guys knew what you were getting into when making these type of threads

how about we add a rule saying "Dont vote for the person who already has majority of the votes, so another player doesn't get it.."

then a lot of posters will vote with their minds, and not with the fact that "so and so is close to beating someone else so i will vote for him"

the "anti-vote" you describe seems pretty minimal. The homer vote on the other hand, is quite prevalent.

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 01:33 PM
the "anti-vote" you describe seems pretty minimal. The homer vote on the other hand, is quite prevalent.

Do you honestly believe that Dr. J is 11th of all time? I doubt it, people voted for Dr. J because he is the closest to beating Kobe in this poll

PHX-SOXFAN
07-30-2008, 02:03 PM
Do you honestly believe that Dr. J is 11th of all time? I doubt it, people voted for Dr. J because he is the closest to beating Kobe in this poll

I actually think he's higher on my personal list, that's why I voted that way. It has nothing to do with whoever is still up there. Look at page one of this thread. It's full of Dr. J, before any kobe votes from the homers. after looking at the votes, I see you appear to be in the category that shouldn't be allowed to vote for a player on the team they root for. When did you start voting for kobe on this list? #3? #7?

SpeeMN
07-30-2008, 02:10 PM
Time Duncan Gets number 10 and KEViN GARNETT isn't even on the list????? Isn't there always heavy debate on whos better, KG or TD? I'm fine with Duncan being higher on this list but KG better be put on it. All the big guys on the list are better than Kobe. Kobe is overrated in this poll because people are able to watch his game now. Moses Malone, David Robinson, Karl Malone and KG are all better than Kobe.

lalakobe24
07-30-2008, 02:28 PM
Time Duncan Gets number 10 and KEViN GARNETT isn't even on the list????? Isn't there always heavy debate on whos better, KG or TD? I'm fine with Duncan being higher on this list but KG better be put on it. All the big guys on the list are better than Kobe. Kobe is overrated in this poll because people are able to watch his game now. Moses Malone, David Robinson, Karl Malone and KG are all better than Kobe.

kg?

thats like saying

one of the three musketeers is better than ZORO

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 02:35 PM
I actually think he's higher on my personal list, that's why I voted that way. It has nothing to do with whoever is still up there. Look at page one of this thread. It's full of Dr. J, before any kobe votes from the homers. after looking at the votes, I see you appear to be in the category that shouldn't be allowed to vote for a player on the team they root for. When did you start voting for kobe on this list? #3? #7?

#8 FYI

I voted for all the winners practically up to #8, and that is because BIG O was voted #7, someone who is known for his regular season performances and his 1 title given by Alcindor

what makes someone smarter if they dont vote for a player that plays on their favorite team? So what if they do? They believe that their favorite player should be on the list, it is the price that comes with democracy my friend

Kobe is 11th GOAT at this point in the list.. so suck it up

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 03:00 PM
I actually think he's higher on my personal list, that's why I voted that way. It has nothing to do with whoever is still up there.
Actually it is quite interesting that you say that, yet in #8 you voted for Hakeem and #9 you voted for Shaq, this is the first time Julius gets a vote from you and what a coincidence, it is the same time as when Kobe has the chance to win.. wow!

Look at page one of this thread. It's full of Dr. J, before any kobe votes from the homers. after looking at the votes, I see you appear to be in the category that shouldn't be allowed to vote for a player on the team they root for. When did you start voting for kobe on this list? #3? #7?

You voted for Shaq in #9

can you say Hypocrite?

Oh wait, this is when PHXSOXfan mysteriously disappears

fresh prince
07-30-2008, 03:03 PM
JB this is fun.

Now that the most polarizing figure Kobe will hopefully be taken off the list we can get to arguing the merits of the actual players instead of hearing the nonsensical ramblings of the Kobe HATERS whining and b**tching every single thread.

DR.J doesn't have nearly the amount of the stats, championships, accomplishments or all time records that Kobe Bryant does yet..People are livid that the poll is even close!! Its ridiculous..

The only players left on the list that have a legit claim at besting Kobe are:

Elgin Baylor, Isiah or Jerry West

Elgin Baylor has 0 Votes!! A vote for DR J = Kobe Hater or just proves you people don't know what you are talking about:

Career Stats

DR J:

22.0 ppg 6.7 rpg 3.9 apg

Kobe:

25.0 ppg 5.3 rpg 4.6 apg


Elgin Baylor:

27.4 ppg 13.5 rpg and 4.3 apg


And Kobe is the best defensive player and has more rings than the other 2. Yet somehow it's crazy to vote for Kobe over DR. J .... Go figure

ugafan
07-30-2008, 03:04 PM
:pity: Kobe
Dr.J no doubt

PHX-SOXFAN
07-30-2008, 04:07 PM
Actually it is quite interesting that you say that, yet in #8 you voted for Hakeem and #9 you voted for Shaq, this is the first time Julius gets a vote from you and what a coincidence, it is the same time as when Kobe has the chance to win.. wow!


You voted for Shaq in #9

can you say Hypocrite?

Oh wait, this is when PHXSOXfan mysteriously disappears

what's hypocritical? I haven't even voted in all of these. How can you draw a conclusion of anything If I only vote in half of these? Nothing hypocritical here, and I haven't disappeared.:D:clap: good to see that mods can bait though.:rolleyes:

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 04:33 PM
what's hypocritical? I haven't even voted in all of these. How can you draw a conclusion of anything If I only vote in half of these? Nothing hypocritical here, and I haven't disappeared.:D:clap: good to see that mods can bait though.:rolleyes:

doesnt matter you still voted for those players while never voting for Dr. J when you said he is higher on your personal list..

it is hypocritical when you say people voting for their own team's players are dumb when you voted for Shaq in #9

you dont have to reply if you dont want to, whatever i am done here.. see you guys at #12..

PHX-SOXFAN
07-30-2008, 04:49 PM
doesnt matter you still voted for those players while never voting for Dr. J when you said he is higher on your personal list..

it is hypocritical when you say people voting for their own team's players are dumb when you voted for Shaq in #9

you dont have to reply if you dont want to, whatever i am done here.. see you guys at #12..

bye:clap:

didn't get a chance at #10 by the way, get over it.

kobe2008mvp
07-30-2008, 04:55 PM
jordanbulls

you ALWAYS THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING WHAT A ARROGANT PERSON YOU ARE!!!!!

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 04:58 PM
bye:clap:

didn't get a chance at #10 by the way, get over it.

you wouldve voted for TD of course, not julius erving ;)

Im glad Kobe got 11th.. AREN'T YOU? :D

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 04:59 PM
jordanbulls

you ALWAYS THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING WHAT A ARROGANT PERSON YOU ARE!!!!!

JB? what did he do? lol

GregOden#1
07-30-2008, 06:22 PM
because

a) you underrate him more than most kobe fans overrate him

I dont underrate him at all.


b) because i like seeing you get pissed over a top 20 list in a sports forum

I'm not getting pissed. And again, that's baiting buddy.


c) because most people vote mainly for the reason of kobe not being in the top 15.. which is sad

He doesn't deserve it.


d) because you believe oscar robertson is better than kobe when he road Alcindor's coat tails to win only one title when kobe road shaq to 3..

That doesn't even make sense.

You fail.


YES THE NBA MVP has mostly been a Joke..I wouldnt use that as an accurate measurement of greatness.

In 2005 - 2006 Kobe Bryant had the most dominate season (35.4 PPG.) in 20 plus years only to finish 4th in MVP voting...

http://www.nba.com/news/nash_mvp_05-06.html

The NBA MVP is a team success award it doesn't gauge individual dominance. Like with MLB and NFL

20 plus years? Are you out of your mind? Tracy McGrady had a better season in 02-03, and it was the same year Duncan lead one of the weakest contending teams ever to the championship. What you should have said is "Kobe had the highest ppg since late 80s Jordan, and he did it inefficiently and played average defense while doing it".

I'm still waiting for your great argument as to why Kobe should be voted in here Prince.

GregOden#1
07-30-2008, 06:26 PM
3 Time NBA Champion
1 Regular Season MVP
2 All-Star MVPs
2 Scoring Titles
10 All-Star Games
10 Consecutive All-Star Appearances
10 Time All NBA selection
6 All NBA First Team Selection
2 All NBA Second Team Selections
2 All NBA Third Team Selections
8 All Defensive Team selections
6 Defensive First Team selections
2 Defensive second team selections
NBA All Rookie Second Team- 1997
NBA Slam Dunk Champion- 1997
Scored the second highest Point total in NBA history- 81 Points
Led NBA in Total Points in 4 Seasons(2003, 2006, 2007, and 2008)
Holds the NBA record for most 3 pointers in one game: 12(tied with Donyell Marshall)
Most 3 pointers made in one half: 8(shared with 6 players)
Most consecutive three-point field goals made, one game: 9(shared with Sprewell and Ben Gordon)
Most free throws made, one quarter: 14 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; shared with 6 players)
Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 16 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; shared with 6 players)
Youngest player to score 15,000 points: (27 Years, 136 days)
Youngest player to score 20,000 points: (29 years, 122 days old), surpassing Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record. Bryant also became one of the only three players to reach the milestone under the age of 30. The other two are Chamberlain (29 years, 134 days old) and Michael Jordan (29 years, 326 days old)
Youngest Slam Dunk champion: (18 years, 175 days)
Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team
Youngest player to start a game: (18 Years, 158 days)


Kobe Bryant holds or shares 30 Los Angeles Lakers franchise records:

Points
Season: 2,832 (2005–06)
Game: 81
Half: 55
Quarter: 30
Field goals made
Half: 18
Quarter: 11
Free throws made
Game: 23
Game, playoffs: 21
Half: 16
Quarter: 14
Quarter, playoffs: 11
Consecutive: 62
Three-point field goals made and attempted
Career: 1,086 (1996–present)
Career, playoffs: 177 (1996–present)
Game: 12
Half: 8
Consecutive: 9
Season attempts: 518 (2005–06)
Game attempts: 18
Steals
Half: 6
Quarter, playoffs: 3


Career 50 Point Games: 24
Career 60 Point Games: 4


Thats Kobe's case for #11
Great, you proved Kobe is a great player. Now show me why he deserves to be #11 ahead of all those other guys.

LAKERMANIA
07-30-2008, 06:28 PM
I dont underrate him at all.

ok.




I'm not getting pissed. And again, that's baiting buddy.

it was a joke.. shouldve put a smiley there or something




He doesn't deserve it.

if you say so. whether or not he does, its too late now, hes on his way to take it




That doesn't even make sense.

You fail.

lol.. ok, well re-read it then.. or ask for an explanation, dont just say you fail without asking for an explanation

GregOden#1
07-30-2008, 06:40 PM
lol.. ok, well re-read it then.. or ask for an explanation, dont just say you fail without asking for an explanation

Because I never made any indication that a) I think Oscar is better than Kobe (I do but I never said it) and b) I never said I think that way (and I never said I thought that way in the first place) because Oscar has a championship or something like that. Oscar is the single greatest offensive perimeter player ever, not Magic, not Jordan, not Elgin, nobody was better than Oscar offensively.

fresh prince
07-30-2008, 07:13 PM
=GregOden#1;6073657

20 plus years? Are you out of your mind?Tracy McGrady had a better season in 02-03, and it was the same year Duncan lead one of the weakest contending teams ever to the championship. What you should have said is "Kobe had the highest ppg since late 80s Jordan, and he did it inefficiently and played average defense while doing it".

I'm still waiting for your great argument as to why Kobe should be voted in here Prince.

Damm GO...I honestly respected you as a poster despite your bias and blind hate for Kobe but you just lost me man.. Tracy in 2002- 2003 averaged 32.1 PPG a full 3 points per game behind Kobe Bryants 2005 season..

T Mac would have had to score almost 700 points to equal Kobe's output..

Bryant recorded the eighth highest single-season scoring average of all time and is only the fifth different player in NBA history to ever score 2,800 points in a season.and he did it with the highest scoring average (35.4) since Michael Jordan's 37.1 in 1986-87. Hence the most dominate season in 20 plus years

He also led a lottery team to 45 wins and one win away from the 2nd round minus himself the Starting 5 was:

PG: Smush Parker
SF:Luke Walton
PF:Lamar Odom
C:Kwame Brown

This was Truly one of the most remarkable seasons in NBA history. Step outside the box man..The numbers speak for themselves

kvrnm
07-30-2008, 07:16 PM
i voted havlicek cus he is the leading scorer in celtic history! pretty good

GregOden#1
07-30-2008, 07:35 PM
Tracy in 2002- 2003 averaged 32.1 PPG a full 3 points per game behind Kobe Bryants 2005 season..

T Mac would have had to score almost 700 points to equal Kobe's output..

Bryant recorded the eighth highest single-season scoring average of all time and is only the fifth different player in NBA history to ever score 2,800 points in a season.and he did it with the highest scoring average (35.4) since Michael Jordan's 37.1 in 1986-87. Hence the most dominate season in 20 plus years

He also led a lottery team to 45 wins and one win away from the 2nd round minus himself the Starting 5 was:

PG: Smush Parker
SF:Luke Walton
PF:Lamar Odom
C:Kwame Brown

This was Truly one of the most remarkable seasons in NBA history. Step outside the box man..The numbers speak for themselves

Yes, Kobe scored alot of points. He also did it inefficiently and played average defense. If you're going to argue simple offensive numbers (and you shoudn't because that's a stupid *** argument), look no further than PER.

TMacs team won 42 games that season, his starting line-up for most of the season was:

PG: Jacque Vaughn
SG: McGrady
SF: Whoever wasn't injured that day
PF: Pat Garrity
C: Shawn Kemp

That's easily worse than Kobe's team, at least Kobe had Lamar.

Now look at the championship Spurs:

PG: 20 year old Tony Parker
SG: Stephen Jackson
SF: Bruce Bowen
PF: Tim Duncan
C: 37 year old David Robinson

Good team? Sure. Championship team? Hell no. Without Duncan that team wins 30 games.

Some other seasons superior than Kobe's in the last 20 years: Garnett's 03-04 season, Shaq's 99-00 season, Hakeem's 92-93 and 93-94 season, Barkley's 90-91 season and 92-93 season, any Jordan year from 86-98, Larry Bird 86-87, Magic Johnson's 3 MVP seasons, even Ewing's 89-90 season. What Kobe did was not historic, he scored alot of points, there's alot more to basketball than just that.

fresh prince
07-30-2008, 07:46 PM
Yes, Kobe scored alot of points. He also did it inefficiently and played average defense. If you're going to argue simple offensive numbers (and you shoudn't because that's a stupid *** argument), look no further than PER.

TMacs team won 42 games that season, his starting line-up for most of the season was:

PG: Jacque Vaughn
SG: McGrady
SF: Whoever wasn't injured that day
PF: Pat Garrity
C: Shawn Kemp

That's easily worse than Kobe's team, at least Kobe had Lamar.

OOOH 42 games in the East!! What an accomplishment!

Im done with you son.. But I hate PER TOO its one of the dumbest things to site in an argument.

Thats probably what it was that we agreed on in the past. But after your piss poor nonsensical ramblings today.. You obviously don't watch enough Laker Games to evaluate Kobe's defense..So please stop commenting on what you don't know about..

I'm going to have to block ya!

phlp_bj
07-30-2008, 07:49 PM
poor bob pettit and elgin baylor. they have gotten no votes.

JordansBulls
07-30-2008, 07:51 PM
jordanbulls

you ALWAYS THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING WHAT A ARROGANT PERSON YOU ARE!!!!!

No, I know how to back up my assertions, how about you? What type of logical argument have you ever put together? First you say Magic is 2nd best, but yet vote for Kobe, in fact you have voted for Kobe in every poll especially in the top 5 and have never even put together any logical explanation.

GspLAL
07-30-2008, 07:56 PM
This forum is becoming a joke, sometimes I read what people say and just /facepalm. I love how people mention rings should play a role in how great a player is, but then vote for players who have 0 over players who have 3.

GregOden#1
07-30-2008, 08:15 PM
OOOH 42 games in the East!! What an accomplishment!

Im done with you son.. But I hate PER TOO its one of the dumbest things to site in an argument.

Thats probably what it was that we agreed on in the past. But after your piss poor nonsensical ramblings today.. You obviously don't watch enough Laker Games to evaluate Kobe's defense..So please stop commenting on what you don't know about..

I'm going to have to block ya!

That was easily the worst attempt at a counter-argument that I have ever seen. You fail to convince anyone that Kobe deserves this spot.

Chronz
07-30-2008, 08:17 PM
Tmac's 02-03 Season was far and away the best individual season since MJ

ARMIN12NBA
07-31-2008, 12:19 AM
Tmac's 02-03 Season was far and away the best individual season since MJ

Tracy McGrady 02-03 Season:

32.1 PPG, 5.5 Assists, 6.5 Rebounds, 1.7 Steals, .457 FG%, .793 FT%

Kobe Bryants 05-06 Season:

35.4 PPG, 4.5 Assists, 5.3 Rebounds, 1.8 Steals, .450 FG%, .850 FT%

A case could be made for either player, but you sound like you lack basketball knowledge and sound very ignorant when you say the words "far and away" because clearly it was very close. Kobe attributed 3.3 more points while T-Mac attributed exactly 1 more assist and 1.2 more rebounds. They both shot the same Field Goal Percentage so their efficiency was basically the same. I don't get how it is far and away.

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 12:30 AM
Tracy McGrady 02-03 Season:

32.1 PPG, 5.5 Assists, 6.5 Rebounds, 1.7 Steals, .457 FG%, .793 FT%

Kobe Bryants 05-06 Season:

35.4 PPG, 4.5 Assists, 5.3 Rebounds, 1.8 Steals, .450 FG%, .850 FT%

A case could be made for either player, but you sound like you lack basketball knowledge and sound very ignorant when you say the words "far and away" because clearly it was very close. Kobe attributed 3.3 more points while T-Mac attributed exactly 1 more assist and 1.2 more rebounds. They both shot the same Field Goal Percentage so their efficiency was basically the same. I don't get how it is far and away.

30.3 PER vs a 28 PER is what he is referring to.

getyopopcornrdy
07-31-2008, 12:35 AM
dr.j did more for the game of basketball did kobe bryant ever could

man some fans gotta respect the legends and get of kobes nutz

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 12:38 AM
The arguments about Kobe, Tmac, Jordan, etc.. are getting tired. We all know MJ was the greatest and that Tmac is nowhere near MJ and neither is Kobe at this point. Kobe is a great player in his own right, but he's not on MJ's level. Tracy McGrady's failures to get out of the first round as the team's leader proves he is not on Kobe's level or even on Lebron's level at this point. TMac is a great talent, but talent alone doesn't translate into winning games.

jacquewho?
07-31-2008, 12:38 AM
Where is reggie miller on this list? :(

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 12:41 AM
The arguments about Kobe, Tmac, Jordan, etc.. are getting tired. We all know MJ was the greatest and that Tmac is nowhere near MJ and neither is Kobe at this point. Kobe is a great player in his own right, but he's not on MJ's level. Tracy McGrady's failures to get out of the first round as the team's leader proves he is not on Kobe's level or even on Lebron's level at this point. TMac is a great talent, but talent alone doesn't translate into winning games.

No one is saying T-mac is as good as Kobe at this point, it was just stated that T-mac's best season was better than Kobe's best season.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 12:44 AM
Tmac's 02-03 Season was far and away the best individual season since MJ

The definition of ignorance. See Kobe 02-03, CP3 this year, Lebron this year, kobe 05-06, I could go on and take it back to some older players who had great individual years. Shaq in 00 had a dominant year, maybe the best year from a center since Hakeem in 92-93. T-Mac's year was good, but let's not overdue it.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 12:46 AM
No one is saying T-mac is as good as Kobe at this point, it was just stated that T-mac's best season was better than Kobe's best season.

T-Mac's season was good but it was against inferior talent, you have to weigh the competition he faced in the eastern conference that year. With the exception of Detroit, Miami and now Boston, name some dominant eastern conf. teams since MJ retired? The Eastern Conference has been weak with the exception of a few teams.

fresh prince
07-31-2008, 12:52 AM
30.3 PER vs a 28 PER is what he is referring to.

Further proof that PER is BS :D

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 12:56 AM
That was easily the worst attempt at a counter-argument that I have ever seen. You fail to convince anyone that Kobe deserves this spot.

I would love to hear your argument on why Oscar Robertson is better than Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson? Stats alone won't win that argument. I respect your analysis a great deal, but MJ's winning pct. and stats, titles, accolades alone put him above Oscar. Ditto for Magic Johnson. Oscar was a great player, but he was not better than MJ or Magic.

ARMIN12NBA
07-31-2008, 12:57 AM
Yes, Kobe scored alot of points. He also did it inefficiently and played average defense. If you're going to argue simple offensive numbers (and you shoudn't because that's a stupid *** argument), look no further than PER.

TMacs team won 42 games that season, his starting line-up for most of the season was:

PG: Jacque Vaughn
SG: McGrady
SF: Whoever wasn't injured that day
PF: Pat Garrity
C: Shawn Kemp

That's easily worse than Kobe's team, at least Kobe had Lamar.

Now look at the championship Spurs:

PG: 20 year old Tony Parker
SG: Stephen Jackson
SF: Bruce Bowen
PF: Tim Duncan
C: 37 year old David Robinson

Good team? Sure. Championship team? Hell no. Without Duncan that team wins 30 games.

Some other seasons superior than Kobe's in the last 20 years: Garnett's 03-04 season, Shaq's 99-00 season, Hakeem's 92-93 and 93-94 season, Barkley's 90-91 season and 92-93 season, any Jordan year from 86-98, Larry Bird 86-87, Magic Johnson's 3 MVP seasons, even Ewing's 89-90 season. What Kobe did was not historic, he scored alot of points, there's alot more to basketball than just that.

1) You say Kobe scored 35.4 PPG inefficiently and what T-Mac did was better YET what you ignored was this little-known FACT: They shot nearly the same percentage. T-Mac of .457% to Kobe's of .450%. That is a very very little difference.

2) You put down T-Macs line-up, but fail to acknowledge Grant Hill (14.5PPG) and Mike Miller (16.4 PPG) as well as Giricek (14 PPG).

Tracy McGrady had 5 other players who scored in double figures for him that season. Kobe Bryant had 3 other players who scored in double figures. Tracy McGrady led his team to 42 wins in the Eastern Conference as Kobe Bryant led his team to 45 wins in the Western Conference (BTW the 4th seed in the West had a better record than the 2nd seed in the East...).

Also, Tony Parker may have been 20 years old, but he averaged 16 points and 5 assists. Steven Jackson averaged 12 points, 3 rebounds, and 2 assists. Robinson averaged 9 points and 8 rebounds. Malik Rose contributed 10 points along with 6 rebounds. They also had Manu who averaged 8 ppg and Bowen who added great defense with 7 ppg. Also, Tim Duncan averaged 23/12/3 that season. How is that better than 35/5/5?

P.S. You say Kobe played average defense, but that year Kobe was selected to All-NBA First Team Defense (something in which T-Mac has never done), which is voted by the coaches and they didn't see his defense as average...

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 01:00 AM
1) You say Kobe scored 35.4 PPG inefficiently and what T-Mac did was better YET what you ignored was this little-known FACT: They shot nearly the same percentage. T-Mac of .457% to Kobe's of .450%. That is a very very little difference.

2) You put down T-Macs line-up, but fail to acknowledge Grant Hill (14.5PPG) and Mike Miller (16.4 PPG) as well as Giricek (14 PPG).

Tracy McGrady had 5 other players who scored in double figures for him that season. Kobe Bryant had 3 other players who scored in double figures. Tracy McGrady led his team to 42 wins in the Eastern Conference as Kobe Bryant led his team to 45 wins in the Western Conference (BTW the 4th seed in the West had a better record than the 2nd seed in the East...).

Also, Tony Parker may have been 20 years old, but he averaged 16 points and 5 assists. Steven Jackson averaged 12 points, 3 rebounds, and 2 assists. Robinson averaged 9 points and 8 rebounds. Malik Rose contributed 10 points along with 6 rebounds. They also had Manu who averaged 8 ppg and Bowen who added great defense with 7 ppg. Also, Tim Duncan averaged 23/12/3 that season. How is that better than 35/5/5?

P.S. You say Kobe played average defense, but that year Kobe was selected to All-NBA First Team Defense (something in which T-Mac has never done), which is voted by the coaches and they didn't see his defense as average...

Solid argument.

ARMIN12NBA
07-31-2008, 01:03 AM
30.3 PER vs a 28 PER is what he is referring to.

1) That isn't "far and away" anyways...
2) PER doesn't define the season or player. It is not very accurate at all. Efficiency ratings are slightly better, but none of these truly take into account the greatness of players and how great an individual season is.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 01:04 AM
Yes, Kobe scored alot of points. He also did it inefficiently and played average defense. If you're going to argue simple offensive numbers (and you shoudn't because that's a stupid *** argument), look no further than PER.

TMacs team won 42 games that season, his starting line-up for most of the season was:

PG: Jacque Vaughn
SG: McGrady
SF: Whoever wasn't injured that day
PF: Pat Garrity
C: Shawn Kemp

That's easily worse than Kobe's team, at least Kobe had Lamar.

Now look at the championship Spurs:

PG: 20 year old Tony Parker
SG: Stephen Jackson
SF: Bruce Bowen
PF: Tim Duncan
C: 37 year old David Robinson

Good team? Sure. Championship team? Hell no. Without Duncan that team wins 30 games.

Some other seasons superior than Kobe's in the last 20 years: Garnett's 03-04 season, Shaq's 99-00 season, Hakeem's 92-93 and 93-94 season, Barkley's 90-91 season and 92-93 season, any Jordan year from 86-98, Larry Bird 86-87, Magic Johnson's 3 MVP seasons, even Ewing's 89-90 season. What Kobe did was not historic, he scored alot of points, there's alot more to basketball than just that.

That so-called bad San Antonio team beat the 3 time Champion Lakers in 6 games.

still1ballin
07-31-2008, 01:23 AM
That so-called bad San Antonio team beat the 3 time Champion Lakers in 6 games.


Oh please, how many times have the Lakers beaten the spurs? You know its hard to repeat, even harder to 3peat and even much tougher to 4 peat....WEAK

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 01:31 AM
I would love to hear your argument on why Oscar Robertson is better than Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson? Stats alone won't win that argument. I respect your analysis a great deal, but MJ's winning pct. and stats, titles, accolades alone put him above Oscar. Ditto for Magic Johnson. Oscar was a great player, but he was not better than MJ or Magic.

I said he was better offensively, which for the most part is true. MJ was the better defender, and the difference between them defensively is bigger than the gap offensively. Personality/intangible wise they were the same, Oscar just had the disadvantage of playing in a segregated city who hated him. Magic's advantage over Oscar is his intangibles, Magic had an impact on his team that went beyond stats, while Oscar was all stats.


1) You say Kobe scored 35.4 PPG inefficiently and what T-Mac did was better YET what you ignored was this little-known FACT: They shot nearly the same percentage. T-Mac of .457% to Kobe's of .450%. That is a very very little difference.

Yes, it is a very little difference. About almost as small as the difference between 35ppg and 32ppg.


2) You put down T-Macs line-up, but fail to acknowledge Grant Hill (14.5PPG) and Mike Miller (16.4 PPG) as well as Giricek (14 PPG).

Tracy McGrady had 5 other players who scored in double figures for him that season. Kobe Bryant had 3 other players who scored in double figures. Tracy McGrady led his team to 42 wins in the Eastern Conference as Kobe Bryant led his team to 45 wins in the Western Conference (BTW the 4th seed in the West had a better record than the 2nd seed in the East...).

Miller was traded for Giricek. Grant Hill missed almost the entire season. I didn't fail to recognize them.


Also, Tony Parker may have been 20 years old, but he averaged 16 points and 5 assists. Steven Jackson averaged 12 points, 3 rebounds, and 2 assists. Robinson averaged 9 points and 8 rebounds. Malik Rose contributed 10 points along with 6 rebounds. They also had Manu who averaged 8 ppg and Bowen who added great defense with 7 ppg. Also, Tim Duncan averaged 23/12/3 that season. How is that better than 35/5/5?

Those averages are terrible, the Spurs were so bad that year. Duncan carried that team to the championship, he just missed a quadruple double in the finals, the guy was unstoppable that season. That's one of the all-time great NBA seasons. I can count on one hand the players that had that big of a role on their championship team.


P.S. You say Kobe played average defense, but that year Kobe was selected to All-NBA First Team Defense (something in which T-Mac has never done), which is voted by the coaches and they didn't see his defense as average...

Even the biggest Kobe fans admit that Kobe's defense has been for the most part overrated and there's no better example than the 05-06 season, where Kobe had to do such a big job offensively that he did not have the stamina to be great defensively.

McGrady was a good defender, not a great one but a good one, but as far as those two and only those two seasons go, Kobe and him were a wash defensively.


That so-called bad San Antonio team beat the 3 time Champion Lakers in 6 games.

I think you missed the point.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
07-31-2008, 01:33 AM
Julius Erving.

dre1990
07-31-2008, 01:41 AM
cmon i love kobe but this is a no brainer DR.J

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 01:56 AM
Oh please, how many times have the Lakers beaten the spurs? You know its hard to repeat, even harder to 3peat and even much tougher to 4 peat....WEAK

You missed my point, I was responding to another quote from greg, who stated that San Antonio had poor talent in terms of helping Duncan to win the title that year.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 01:58 AM
I said he was better offensively, which for the most part is true. MJ was the better defender, and the difference between them defensively is bigger than the gap offensively. Personality/intangible wise they were the same, Oscar just had the disadvantage of playing in a segregated city who hated him. Magic's advantage over Oscar is his intangibles, Magic had an impact on his team that went beyond stats, while Oscar was all stats.



Yes, it is a very little difference. About almost as small as the difference between 35ppg and 32ppg.



Miller was traded for Giricek. Grant Hill missed almost the entire season. I didn't fail to recognize them.



Those averages are terrible, the Spurs were so bad that year. Duncan carried that team to the championship, he just missed a quadruple double in the finals, the guy was unstoppable that season. That's one of the all-time great NBA seasons. I can count on one hand the players that had that big of a role on their championship team.



Even the biggest Kobe fans admit that Kobe's defense has been for the most part overrated and there's no better example than the 05-06 season, where Kobe had to do such a big job offensively that he did not have the stamina to be great defensively.

McGrady was a good defender, not a great one but a good one, but as far as those two and only those two seasons go, Kobe and him were a wash defensively.



I think you missed the point.

Once again, I don't see how Oscar was better offensively, he definitely was a better playmaker.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 02:00 AM
cmon i love kobe but this is a no brainer DR.J

Kobe is better than Dr. J, Dr. J is the better ambassador for the game, but in terms of ability to perform in the clutch, score pts, and defend, Kobe is a better player.

still1ballin
07-31-2008, 02:02 AM
You missed my point, I was responding to another quote from greg, who stated that San Antonio had poor talent in terms of helping Duncan to win the title that year.

Sorry, i was scrolling down and it caught my eye.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 02:13 AM
I just don't see how Dr. J is in the conversation just yet, I can name better players: Magic, MJ, Oscar, Bird, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, M. Malone, Kobe, K. Malone, Barkley, West, Baylor

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 02:13 AM
Kareem as well

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 02:15 AM
Dr. J is an all-time great, and I have all the respect for him, but I think the players mentioned above are ahead of him.

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 02:18 AM
I just don't see how Dr. J is in the conversation just yet, I can name better players: Magic, MJ, Oscar, Bird, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, M. Malone, Kobe, K. Malone, Barkley, West, Baylor

That's the thing, the one that doesn't belong isn't Erving, its Kobe. Kobe isn't even ahead of the next group of guys like DRob and Havlicek, while Erving is in the group of Duncan's, Hakeem's and Robertson's etc.

I honestly dont think the issue here is that you guys are a Kobe homers, I think its that you guys really dont know how good these other guys were.

You watch Kobe play and cant imagine anyone better, but the fact is there were guys better than him. That's not a knock on Kobe, its a testament to how good these other guys were.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
07-31-2008, 02:23 AM
That's the thing, the one that doesn't belong isn't Erving, its Kobe. Kobe isn't even ahead of the next group of guys like DRob and Havlicek, while Erving is in the group of Duncan's, Hakeem's and Robertson's etc.

I honestly dont think the issue here is that you guys are a Kobe homers, I think its that you guys really dont know how good these other guys were.

You watch Kobe play and cant imagine anyone better, but the fact is there were guys better than him. That's not a knock on Kobe, its a testament to how good these other guys were.

Well said, I agree I think people forget how great the Dr.J was. Not that I lived through that time period but I read and watch old videos of those guys you mentioned.

lalakobe24
07-31-2008, 03:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stiAd7W45yE


dr J the godfather loved that fro he migh not be better than kobe but damn hes better than everybody else

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 03:32 AM
That's the thing, the one that doesn't belong isn't Erving, its Kobe. Kobe isn't even ahead of the next group of guys like DRob and Havlicek, while Erving is in the group of Duncan's, Hakeem's and Robertson's etc.

I honestly dont think the issue here is that you guys are a Kobe homers, I think its that you guys really dont know how good these other guys were.

You watch Kobe play and cant imagine anyone better, but the fact is there were guys better than him. That's not a knock on Kobe, its a testament to how good these other guys were.

That's a good honest opinion, I respect that, although I don't think Havliceck and DRob were better than Kobe. DRob played the center position, it's tough to compare centers and guards. I have Kobe ahead of him based upon Kobe's resume. Shaq wasn't the only one winning those titles, before Kobe, Shaq had ZERO rings and he played with great talent, when Kobe developed and he became the 2nd option, that's when O'neal flourished. Anyway, D. Rob was great but, prior to Duncan's arrival, he had way too many dissapearing acts in the playoffs. Havliceck was great, but he's no Kobe, not in terms of carrying a team. Havliceck was a great 2nd option, but he's not what I would consider a franchise player. Franchise guys are: Magic, MJ, Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Shaq, Duncan, etc..

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 03:37 AM
One way to really evaluate a GREAT player is to ask yourself can you build around that player and legitimately compete for a title with that player every year. I think Kobe answered that question this year. I think that puts him behind the 11 other greats, I have him right behind M. Malone for 12th all time. Kobe has always had the talent now he is putting it all together.

Crunchy12489
07-31-2008, 03:44 AM
I voted John Stockton clearly because he's a good scorer, he's an excellent playmaker, and he's a great stealer.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:03 AM
A breakdown of each player's career, a minimum of 10 years in the league



Havlicek's career avg. 20.8ppg, 6rpg, and 4apg on .436 fg pct

Kobe's career avg. 25ppg, 5rpg, 5apg on .453 fg pct

Dr. J's career avg. 22ppg, 7rpg, 4apg on .507 fg pct

D. Rob career avg 21.6ppg, 10.6rpg, on .518 fg pct

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 04:13 AM
That really isn't a very accurate assessment. Havlicek played alot of his career as a 6th man for the incredibly deep Celtics teams. All the players but Kobe played until their late 30s and since Kobe hasn't declined yet its unfair to look at career numbers. Also, you're not counting Dr. J's ABA career, which is silly because you'd count Kareem's pre-76 years despite the ABA being just as strong as the NBA then.

ARMIN12NBA
07-31-2008, 04:19 AM
That really isn't a very accurate assessment. Havlicek played alot of his career as a 6th man for the incredibly deep Celtics teams. All the players but Kobe played until their late 30s and since Kobe hasn't declined yet its unfair to look at career numbers. Also, you're not counting Dr. J's ABA career, which is silly because you'd count Kareem's pre-76 years despite the ABA being just as strong as the NBA then.

There are always two sides GregOden#1, which you fail to realize. Kobe may not have the declining factor, but remember that Dr. J came into the league when he already played in the ABA for several years and was very seasoned as well as David Robinson who didn't come in the NBA until age 24. Kobe came in at age 17 out of high school and was not as seasoned as the others so then, by your understanding, we should also take out his first two-three years as well as take out the others declining years...

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:20 AM
[QUOTE=GregOden#1;6083886]That really isn't a very accurate assessment. Havlicek played alot of his career as a 6th man for the incredibly deep Celtics teams. All the players but Kobe played until their late 30s and since Kobe hasn't declined yet its unfair to look at career numbers. Also, you're not counting Dr. J's ABA career, which is silly because you'd count Kareem's pre-76 years despite the ABA being just as strong as the NBA then.[/QUOTE

The average I took was of Dr. J's ABA and NBA days. When you compare numbers between Kobe and Dr. J and if you stop at age 30 for both, very similar with Kobe having the edge in scoring, and Dr. J having the edge in rebounding.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:21 AM
There are always two sides GregOden#1, which you fail to realize. Kobe may not have the declining factor, but remember that Dr. J came into the league when he already played in the ABA for several years and was very seasoned as well as David Robinson who didn't come in the NBA until age 24. Kobe came in at age 17 out of high school and was not as seasoned as the others so then, by your understanding, we should also take out his first two-three years as well as take out the others declining years...

Great point.

BrizzleBear
07-31-2008, 04:21 AM
Dr J.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:22 AM
That really isn't a very accurate assessment. Havlicek played alot of his career as a 6th man for the incredibly deep Celtics teams. All the players but Kobe played until their late 30s and since Kobe hasn't declined yet its unfair to look at career numbers. Also, you're not counting Dr. J's ABA career, which is silly because you'd count Kareem's pre-76 years despite the ABA being just as strong as the NBA then.

The fact that Havlicek was a 6th man (which I knew already) ends your argument for him being ahead of Kobe Bryant. Hondo was a great player and is top 50 all time, but he's not ahead of Kobe.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:29 AM
That really isn't a very accurate assessment. Havlicek played alot of his career as a 6th man for the incredibly deep Celtics teams. All the players but Kobe played until their late 30s and since Kobe hasn't declined yet its unfair to look at career numbers. Also, you're not counting Dr. J's ABA career, which is silly because you'd count Kareem's pre-76 years despite the ABA being just as strong as the NBA then.

We can just throw out the declining yrs. for Dr. J and Havlicek, but we would also have to throw out Kobe's years of adolescence, lol, if we were to use this logic. Take out Kobe's first 2 or 3 yrs and his averages would by far move ahead of both guys.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:31 AM
Could you imagine MJ, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, etc.. playing the role of the 6th man most of their career because they had deep rosters, just doesn't add up. I am not downplaying Havlicek, but at the same time let's be realistic here, none of those guys mentioned would be a 6th man for most of their career.

Chronz
07-31-2008, 04:35 AM
Tracy McGrady 02-03 Season:

32.1 PPG, 5.5 Assists, 6.5 Rebounds, 1.7 Steals, .457 FG%, .793 FT%

Kobe Bryants 05-06 Season:

35.4 PPG, 4.5 Assists, 5.3 Rebounds, 1.8 Steals, .450 FG%, .850 FT%

A case could be made for either player, but you sound like you lack basketball knowledge and sound very ignorant when you say the words "far and away" because clearly it was very close. Kobe attributed 3.3 more points while T-Mac attributed exactly 1 more assist and 1.2 more rebounds. They both shot the same Field Goal Percentage so their efficiency was basically the same. I don't get how it is far and away.

Whats ignorant is you thinking thats how you breakdown stats, account for pace and possessions and you'll find your answer. Efficiency is more than just FG%. Far and away, no player has created as many shots as Tmac did for his team and himself with such a microscopic turnover rate, and efficiency from the field (eFG%).

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 04:37 AM
The average I took was of Dr. J's ABA and NBA days. When you compare numbers between Kobe and Dr. J and if you stop at age 30 for both, very similar with Kobe having the edge in scoring, and Dr. J having the edge in rebounding.

You took the average from his NBA days, not ABA. Dr. J had an average of 26ppg by the time he was 30. I'm not going to check his rebounding/assist averages because I know they are higher than Kobe's. But you're not looking at the right numbers. Erving is among the all-time greats in leadership, up there with the Magic's and the Russell's. He sacrificed shots for the team and lowered his scoring to the 24-26 area once he got to the NBA because his teams always had an incredible amount of offensive talent, he could've easily averaged 30 points for his career if he wanted to. He's also a ridiculously underrated defender, and was only left off the all-defensive teams because he was playing in the time period when the best defensive SF's played, guys like Sydney Moncrief and Bobby Jones. The guy was a superstar and carried an entire league on his back, if you honestly think that this guy isn't better than Kobe Bryant than you're crazy.


The fact that Havlicek was a 6th man (which I knew already) ends your argument for him being ahead of Kobe Bryant. Hondo was a great player and is top 50 all time, but he's not ahead of Kobe.

It doesn't end anything, the Celtics always used a 6th man to come off the bench when the other team was tired. Havlicek was a 6th man the same way Manu is a 6th man.

You cant just judge a player on just being a franchise player or not, there are more factors that go into it than that.

Chronz
07-31-2008, 04:39 AM
The definition of ignorance. See Kobe 02-03, CP3 this year, Lebron this year, kobe 05-06, I could go on and take it back to some older players who had great individual years. Shaq in 00 had a dominant year, maybe the best year from a center since Hakeem in 92-93. T-Mac's year was good, but let's not overdue it.

Oh my bad I meant perimeter player, if you add bigmen to that list then its alot more crowded.

ARMIN12NBA
07-31-2008, 04:43 AM
Whats ignorant is you thinking thats how you breakdown stats, account for pace and possessions and you'll find your answer. Efficiency is more than just FG%. Far and away, no player has created as many shots as Tmac did for his team and himself with such a microscopic turnover rate, and efficiency from the field (eFG%).

The Orlando Magic's of 02-03 pace was 93.1, which was fifth in the league.

The Los Angeles Lakers of 05-06 pace was 90.9, which was fifteenth in the league.

That would mean that Kobe had less possessions to work with than T-Mac and still scored more points! Thanks for helping me prove more that it is closer than you think!

Also, Tracy averaged 2.6 turnovers, which is hardly microscopic.

Chronz
07-31-2008, 04:48 AM
The Orlando Magic's of 02-03 pace was 93.1, which was fifth in the league.

The Los Angeles Lakers of 05-06 pace was 90.9, which was fifteenth in the league.

That would mean that Kobe had less possessions to work with than T-Mac and still scored more points! Thanks for helping me prove more that it is closer than you think!

Also, Tracy averaged 2.6 turnovers, which is hardly microscopic.
Was that your entire argument?

ARMIN12NBA
07-31-2008, 04:51 AM
Was that your entire argument?

I had presented my argument and you said I was ignorant because all that matters is pace...and the pace favors Kobe. What else do you want me to prove?

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:57 AM
You took the average from his NBA days, not ABA. Dr. J had an average of 26ppg by the time he was 30. I'm not going to check his rebounding/assist averages because I know they are higher than Kobe's. But you're not looking at the right numbers. Erving is among the all-time greats in leadership, up there with the Magic's and the Russell's. He sacrificed shots for the team and lowered his scoring to the 24-26 area once he got to the NBA because his teams always had an incredible amount of offensive talent, he could've easily averaged 30 points for his career if he wanted to. He's also a ridiculously underrated defender, and was only left off the all-defensive teams because he was playing in the time period when the best defensive SF's played, guys like Sydney Moncrief and Bobby Jones. The guy was a superstar and carried an entire league on his back, if you honestly think that this guy isn't better than Kobe Bryant than you're crazy.


It doesn't end anything, the Celtics always used a 6th man to come off the bench when the other team was tired. Havlicek was a 6th man the same way Manu is a 6th man.

You cant just judge a player on just being a franchise player or not, there are more factors that go into it than that.

Havlicek is not a franchise player so that ends the argument. Can you build a team around the man and ask him to lead you as the main guy throughout the regular season, playoffs, and to the finals? Can he carry a team is the measure of the truly legendary players and the really good players.

Franchise players: MJ, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Bird, etc..Kobe, Malone, Dr. J, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, West

Non-Franchise players who were still great: Pippen, Dumars, Stockton, Dominique Wilkins, Worthy, Mchale, Havlicek

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 05:05 AM
You took the average from his NBA days, not ABA. Dr. J had an average of 26ppg by the time he was 30. I'm not going to check his rebounding/assist averages because I know they are higher than Kobe's. But you're not looking at the right numbers. Erving is among the all-time greats in leadership, up there with the Magic's and the Russell's. He sacrificed shots for the team and lowered his scoring to the 24-26 area once he got to the NBA because his teams always had an incredible amount of offensive talent, he could've easily averaged 30 points for his career if he wanted to. He's also a ridiculously underrated defender, and was only left off the all-defensive teams because he was playing in the time period when the best defensive SF's played, guys like Sydney Moncrief and Bobby Jones. The guy was a superstar and carried an entire league on his back, if you honestly think that this guy isn't better than Kobe Bryant than you're crazy.




It doesn't end anything, the Celtics always used a 6th man to come off the bench when the other team was tired. Havlicek was a 6th man the same way Manu is a 6th man.

You cant just judge a player on just being a franchise player or not, there are more factors that go into it than that.


Sounds like excuses for Erving on defense, if your a great defender you will more than likely be recognized for that. MJ played in an era with great defenders during the 80's and still he won the Defensive Player of the Year and was on the 1st team all defense. I will admit Kobe's defense has slipped over the yrs, but he still has been voted as the top defender at his position several times, which is a fact, where are Erving's defensive 1st teams?

Erving was more important to the game of basketball than Kobe, he was an ambassador for the game and his name is legendary, but just comparing skills, etc.. and who is the better overall player, Kobe gets the edge. If the question were who was more important, obviously Dr. J gets the nod.

Er1c
07-31-2008, 05:15 AM
kobe :D

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 05:16 AM
Dr. J is definitely a top 15 player all time.

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 05:18 AM
Havlicek is not a franchise player so that ends the argument. Can you build a team around the man and ask him to lead you as the man throughout the regular season, playoffs, and to the finals? Can he carry a team is the measure of the truly legendary players and the really good players.

No, it doesn't end the argument. Kobe never lead a team to the championship, and Havlicek never had the opportunity (that's debatable though since he won the finals MVP in 74). How can you hold it against Havlicek. He had far more team success (8 rings), were his teams better? Yeah, but its not like he wasn't a huge contributor. You're arguing that Kobe's 3 rings are important yet he was the second option, even though Havlicek had a bigger role on his 2 championships with Cowen's than Kobe did with Shaq.


Sounds like excuses for Erving on defense, if your a great defender you will more than likely be recognized for that. MJ played in an era with great defenders during the 80's and still he won the Defensive Player of the Year and was on the 1st team all defense. I will admit Kobe's defense has slipped over the yrs, but he still has been voted as the top defender at his position several times, which is a fact, where are Erving's defensive 1st teams.

The first teams are a joke in the first place. Jordan also played a different position where defensively there was no comparison. The defensive forwards in Erving's time were many times greater than the defensive guards Jordan played against.


Erving was more important to the game of basketball than Kobe, he was an ambassador for the game and his name is legendary, but just comparing skills, etc.. and who is the better overall player, Kobe gets the edge. If the question were who was more important, obviously Dr. J gets the nod.

You havent shown me any reason to believe Kobe is the superior player.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 05:43 AM
Havlicek is a great player but not a franchise player, there is a difference.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 05:51 AM
[QUOTE=GregOden#1;6084054]No, it doesn't end the argument. Kobe never lead a team to the championship, and Havlicek never had the opportunity (that's debatable though since he won the finals MVP in 74). How can you hold it against Havlicek. He had far more team success (8 rings), were his teams better? Yeah, but its not like he wasn't a huge contributor. You're arguing that Kobe's 3 rings are important yet he was the second option, even though Havlicek had a bigger role on his 2 championships with Cowen's than Kobe did with Shaq.


A terrible argument in terms of who was the more critical 2nd option.

In Kobe's first title run he avg. 21ppg, 5apg, and 5rpg throughout the entire playoffs

During his second title run he avg. 29ppg, 6rpg, 5apg throughout the entire playoffs

During his 3rd title run he avg. 27ppg, 6apg, 6rpg throughout the entire playoffs.

Sounds like more than just a regular 2nd option, Kobe was crucial to the team winning titles and beating teams like San Antonio and Portland, teams that were able to somewhat neutralize Shaquille. Also, he hit game winners, made critical plays down the stretch and helped LA win those 3 titles.

Those were just his averages, I can remember him taking over in overtime to beat Indiana in a pivotal game 4. He had 48 pts and 17 rebs against Sac. in a close out game in 01. He dropped 45 points on a great San Antonio team defense in 01, the man wasn't even 25 yrs old and was dominating games...... Those were just a few games that I can remember off the top of my head, he had a pleuthra of Great Games and hit game winners and made critical offensive and defensive plays during our title runs.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 05:55 AM
In terms of comparing titles, Havlicek has the edge, but other than Shaq, name some hall of famers Kobe is currently playing with and has played with? Havlicek had some of the greatest players (players being the key word) of all time on his teams.

Karl Malone and Gary Payton don't count for Kobe, they were on his team for one season.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 05:58 AM
Take Kobe off of this current laker team and place Havlicek on the team, will they make the finals? This question sums it up for me.

Fisher
Havlicek
Radmonvic
Odom
Gasol

Bynum was injured this year.

The answer would be a resounding no, Kobe had to put up MJ like perfomances just to beat San Antonio, LA was down by 20, Kobe takes over. Game 5, Kobe scores 39 and erupts in the 4th to beat San Antonio. It took great perfomances by Kobe just to beat a tough Utah team.

Kobe's playoff avg. 30ppg, 6apg, 6rpg, on .490 shooting, these type of numbers have not been seen since Michael Jordan.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 06:15 AM
No, it doesn't end the argument. Kobe never lead a team to the championship, and Havlicek never had the opportunity (that's debatable though since he won the finals MVP in 74). How can you hold it against Havlicek. He had far more team success (8 rings), were his teams better? Yeah, but its not like he wasn't a huge contributor. You're arguing that Kobe's 3 rings are important yet he was the second option, even though Havlicek had a bigger role on his 2 championships with Cowen's than Kobe did with Shaq.



The first teams are a joke in the first place. Jordan also played a different position where defensively there was no comparison. The defensive forwards in Erving's time were many times greater than the defensive guards Jordan played against.



You havent shown me any reason to believe Kobe is the superior player.

You still have not proved your case for why Erving was a better player, Erving was more critcal to the success of the league, but you have not shown me why Dr. J is the better player.

innovator
07-31-2008, 06:24 AM
ofcousre erving was critical to the success of the league CUZ HE PLAYED FIRST but if they switch places kobe plays before and erving plays now then kobe would have been critical also to the success and erving will be the one who is being criticized.. others just dont wanna let kobe win just because they hate kobe

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 06:29 AM
ofcousre erving was critical to the success of the league CUZ HE PLAYED FIRST but if they switch places kobe plays before and erving plays now then kobe would have been critical also to the success and erving will be the one who is being criticized.. others just dont wanna let kobe win just because they hate kobe

I agree, Kobe has to be the most hated and loved player in recent yrs. People just fail to realize how good he truly is, it's not about overrating him, I am just giving an unbiased assesment. People have to give credit where credit is due.

bagwell368
07-31-2008, 07:32 AM
This list needs to be fixed. Where is Isiah Thomas and Nate Archibald.

Anyway, i'm voting for Julius Erving.

Nate? He isn't even in the top 30. Isiah? Ugh.

Where is Cowens? McHale? Dumars?

innovator
07-31-2008, 07:36 AM
in the "other" option

Z-ray21
07-31-2008, 02:12 PM
i dunno why people are voting for kobe when DR J is on the list

fresh prince
07-31-2008, 02:31 PM
[QUOTE=GregOden#1;6084054]No, it doesn't end the argument. Kobe never lead a team to the championship, and Havlicek never had the opportunity (that's debatable though since he won the finals MVP in 74). How can you hold it against Havlicek. He had far more team success (8 rings), were his teams better? Yeah, but its not like he wasn't a huge contributor. You're arguing that Kobe's 3 rings are important yet he was the second option, even though Havlicek had a bigger role on his 2 championships with Cowen's than Kobe did with Shaq.


A terrible argument in terms of who was the more critical 2nd option.

In Kobe's first title run he avg. 21ppg, 5apg, and 5rpg throughout the entire playoffs

During his second title run he avg. 29ppg, 6rpg, 5apg throughout the entire playoffs

During his 3rd title run he avg. 27ppg, 6apg, 6rpg throughout the entire playoffs.

Sounds like more than just a regular 2nd option, Kobe was crucial to the team winning titles and beating teams like San Antonio and Portland, teams that were able to somewhat neutralize Shaquille. Also, he hit game winners, made critical plays down the stretch and helped LA win those 3 titles.

Those were just his averages, I can remember him taking over in overtime to beat Indiana in a pivotal game 4. He had 48 pts and 17 rebs against Sac. in a close out game in 01. He dropped 45 points on a great San Antonio team defense in 01, the man wasn't even 25 yrs old and was dominating games...... Those were just a few games that I can remember off the top of my head, he had a pleuthra of Great Games and hit game winners and made critical offensive and defensive plays during our title runs.

I argued these same points back in the #9 player thread..


Theres no convincing these guys. They feel Kobe "rode" Shaq when in reality Kobe carried our team through the Western conference playoffs each year only for Shaq to dominate the inferior Eastern conference opponent..

It is what it is..Perception is reality

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 03:28 PM
A terrible argument in terms of who was the more critical 2nd option.

In Kobe's first title run he avg. 21ppg, 5apg, and 5rpg throughout the entire playoffs

During his second title run he avg. 29ppg, 6rpg, 5apg throughout the entire playoffs

During his 3rd title run he avg. 27ppg, 6apg, 6rpg throughout the entire playoffs.

Sounds like more than just a regular 2nd option, Kobe was crucial to the team winning titles and beating teams like San Antonio and Portland, teams that were able to somewhat neutralize Shaquille. Also, he hit game winners, made critical plays down the stretch and helped LA win those 3 titles.

Those were just his averages, I can remember him taking over in overtime to beat Indiana in a pivotal game 4. He had 48 pts and 17 rebs against Sac. in a close out game in 01. He dropped 45 points on a great San Antonio team defense in 01, the man wasn't even 25 yrs old and was dominating games...... Those were just a few games that I can remember off the top of my head, he had a pleuthra of Great Games and hit game winners and made critical offensive and defensive plays during our title runs.

Uh...Havlicek during some important title runs:

65-66: 24/9/4
66-67: 27/8/3 (they lost to the 76ers this year)
67-68: 26/9/8
68-69: 25/10/5
72-73: 24/5/5 (played injured for most of the playoffers, missed game 7 of the ECF when they lost)
73-74: 27/5/5 (at 32 years old)

I dont know why you're trying to argue this. If Havlicek isn't a franchise player than neither is Kobe.


Take Kobe off of this current laker team and place Havlicek on the team, will they make the finals? This question sums it up for me.

Fisher
Havlicek
Radmonvic
Odom
Gasol

Bynum was injured this year.

The answer would be a resounding no, Kobe had to put up MJ like perfomances just to beat San Antonio, LA was down by 20, Kobe takes over. Game 5, Kobe scores 39 and erupts in the 4th to beat San Antonio. It took great perfomances by Kobe just to beat a tough Utah team.

Kobe's playoff avg. 30ppg, 6apg, 6rpg, on .490 shooting, these type of numbers have not been seen since Michael Jordan.

I could use the same argument against Kobe by putting him on one of the Celtics teams and just saying they woudn't make it past the second round because Kobe cant do what Havlicek can.


You still have not proved your case for why Erving was a better player, Erving was more critcal to the success of the league, but you have not shown me why Dr. J is the better player.

I'm not even going to bother. It'd be more sensible of me to argue Havlicek than Dr. J, I think arguing for Erving would just be insulting him.


I agree, Kobe has to be the most hated and loved player in recent yrs. People just fail to realize how good he truly is, it's not about overrating him, I am just giving an unbiased assesment. People have to give credit where credit is due.

Its not about being biased, its about your ignorance of these other players.

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 03:57 PM
I argued these same points back in the #9 player thread..


Theres no convincing these guys. They feel Kobe "rode" Shaq when in reality Kobe carried our team through the Western conference playoffs each year only for Shaq to dominate the inferior Eastern conference opponent..

It is what it is..Perception is reality

Are you kidding me?

Here are the stats to prove I am not hating, only telling the truth.

1999-2000 Finals


Shaq scored 43/40/33/36/35/41. He shot 96-157. He averaged 38 PPG and shot 61 % from the field.


Kobe scored 14/2/28/8/26. He shot 33-90. He averaged 15.6 PPG and shot 37% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. He didn't score below 33 in any of the games and Kobe scored below 10 twice. He also didn't have a 30 point game and shot poorly from the field.


2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.



Overall advantage- Shaq. The numbers don't lie in these 3 championship series. Shaq averaged a total of 35.7 PPG during the Three-peat. He only scored under 30 two times in 15 games, that's phenominal.

Kobe averaged only 22.3 PPG. That's 13.4 PPG less than Shaq averaged. He scored over 30 only 3 times in 14 games. While being held to under 20 in 5 of those games.


Shaq carried Kobe and the Lakers. The stats prove it.


And let's not forget that overall for the playoffs Shaq averaged 30 and 15 in 2000 and 2001 and 29 and 13 in 2002.

It's funny that a guy who averaged basically 16 ppg on 37% in the 2000 is going to get credit for carrying the team.

I mean it's obvious that Kobe did his part for the team but to say he carried them to the finals is absurb.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 03:59 PM
Uh...Havlicek during some important title runs:

65-66: 24/9/4
66-67: 27/8/3 (they lost to the 76ers this year)
67-68: 26/9/8
68-69: 25/10/5
72-73: 24/5/5 (played injured for most of the playoffers, missed game 7 of the ECF when they lost)
73-74: 27/5/5 (at 32 years old)

I dont know why you're trying to argue this. If Havlicek isn't a franchise player than neither is Kobe.



I could use the same argument against Kobe by putting him on one of the Celtics teams and just saying they woudn't make it past the second round because Kobe cant do what Havlicek can.



I'm not even going to bother. It'd be more sensible of me to argue Havlicek than Dr. J, I think arguing for Erving would just be insulting him.



Its not about being biased, its about your ignorance of these other players.

As the featured player, did Havlicek ever lead his team to the finals? You are making a good case for Havlicek being a great player, but not a franchise player, there's a difference as stated earlier.

As far as Dr. J, I understand the significance of Dr. J and how great he was, he just was not better than Kobe, more important, yes, better, no.

When Kobe actually had a decent roster, guess what, he went to the finals. I don't think you make a distinction between great players and franchise players. Havlicek is a great player, but I don't think most people would build a team around him.

Once again we have our franchise players: Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, MJ, West, Hakeem, Duncan, Dr. J, Bird, M. Malone, Russell, and yes Kobe belongs on the list as a franchise player. Kobe is further down the list as is Dr. J. I would NOT put Kobe ahead of Magic, Shaq, Russell, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, M. Malone, Bird, Oscar, MJ.

Non-franchise players, i.e. players who were great but not expected to carry a team: Mchale, Pippen, Dumars, Stockton, Havlicek, Worthy, D. Johnson

madiaz3
07-31-2008, 04:00 PM
I'm not even going to bother. It'd be more sensible of me to argue Havlicek than Dr. J, I think arguing for Erving would just be insulting him.



That's called a cop-out.

SC1211
07-31-2008, 04:00 PM
This is an embarrassment. Please, let's discontinue this, so we just have the top ten and this list isn't plagued with stupidity like we're seeing now.

madiaz3
07-31-2008, 04:05 PM
Are you kidding me?

Here are the stats to prove I am not hating, only telling the truth.

1999-2000 Finals


Shaq scored 43/40/33/36/35/41. He shot 96-157. He averaged 38 PPG and shot 61 % from the field.


Kobe scored 14/2/28/8/26. He shot 33-90. He averaged 15.6 PPG and shot 37% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. He didn't score below 33 in any of the games and Kobe scored below 10 twice. He also didn't have a 30 point game and shot poorly from the field.


2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.



Overall advantage- Shaq. The numbers don't lie in these 3 championship series. Shaq averaged a total of 35.7 PPG during the Three-peat. He only scored under 30 two times in 15 games, that's phenominal.

Kobe averaged only 22.3 PPG. That's 13.4 PPG less than Shaq averaged. He scored over 30 only 3 times in 14 games. While being held to under 20 in 5 of those games.


Shaq carried Kobe and the Lakers. The stats prove it.


And let's not forget that overall for the playoffs Shaq averaged 30 and 15 in 2000 and 2001 and 29 and 13 in 2002.

It's funny that a guy who averaged basically 16 ppg on 37% in the 2000 is going to get credit for carrying the team.

I mean it's obvious that Kobe did his part for the team but to say he carried them to the finals is absurb.

Why are you trying to refute his arguments that Kobe carried them through the WESTERN CONFERENCE PLAYOFFS with FINALS STATS that he already admitted Shaq dominated. :confused::confused::confused::confused:

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:05 PM
Are you kidding me?

Here are the stats to prove I am not hating, only telling the truth.

1999-2000 Finals


Shaq scored 43/40/33/36/35/41. He shot 96-157. He averaged 38 PPG and shot 61 % from the field.


Kobe scored 14/2/28/8/26. He shot 33-90. He averaged 15.6 PPG and shot 37% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. He didn't score below 33 in any of the games and Kobe scored below 10 twice. He also didn't have a 30 point game and shot poorly from the field.


2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.



Overall advantage- Shaq. The numbers don't lie in these 3 championship series. Shaq averaged a total of 35.7 PPG during the Three-peat. He only scored under 30 two times in 15 games, that's phenominal.

Kobe averaged only 22.3 PPG. That's 13.4 PPG less than Shaq averaged. He scored over 30 only 3 times in 14 games. While being held to under 20 in 5 of those games.


Shaq carried Kobe and the Lakers. The stats prove it.


And let's not forget that overall for the playoffs Shaq averaged 30 and 15 in 2000 and 2001 and 29 and 13 in 2002.

It's funny that a guy who averaged basically 16 ppg on 37% in the 2000 is going to get credit for carrying the team.

I mean it's obvious that Kobe did his part for the team but to say he carried them to the finals is absurb.

You are mentioning the finals, but what were Kobe's numbers prior to the finals? To say that O'neal was the only major force is ridiculous. Obviously, the offense was going to run through Shaq. He was the best player during that time and he was the main man on our team, but people act as if he just carried the Lakers to titles, prior to the finals, they weren't beating San Antonio, Portland, Sac., etc.. without some great games by Kobe.

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 04:06 PM
As the featured player, did Havlicek ever lead his team to the finals? You are making a good case for Havlicek being a great player, but not a franchise player, there's a difference as stated earlier.

Did Kobe ever win a championship as the featured player?


When Kobe actually had a decent roster, guess what, he went to the finals. I don't think you make a distinction between great players and franchise players. Havlicek is a great player, but I don't think most people would build a team around him.

Why not....its a pretty ridiculous assertion just because Havlicek was on good teams, I mean how can you penalize someone for being on a good team.


That's called a cop-out.

I think you need to do a better job of following the argument.

madiaz3
07-31-2008, 04:07 PM
Did Kobe ever win a championship as the featured player?


He just said lead his team to the Finals, which Kobe did, not win a championship.

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 04:08 PM
He just said lead his team to the Finals, which Kobe did, not win a championship.

Then that's something that seperates Havlicek and Kobe. Havlicek lead a team to the championship, Kobe didn't.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:15 PM
Are you kidding me?

Here are the stats to prove I am not hating, only telling the truth.

1999-2000 Finals


Shaq scored 43/40/33/36/35/41. He shot 96-157. He averaged 38 PPG and shot 61 % from the field.


Kobe scored 14/2/28/8/26. He shot 33-90. He averaged 15.6 PPG and shot 37% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. He didn't score below 33 in any of the games and Kobe scored below 10 twice. He also didn't have a 30 point game and shot poorly from the field.


2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.



Overall advantage- Shaq. The numbers don't lie in these 3 championship series. Shaq averaged a total of 35.7 PPG during the Three-peat. He only scored under 30 two times in 15 games, that's phenominal.

Kobe averaged only 22.3 PPG. That's 13.4 PPG less than Shaq averaged. He scored over 30 only 3 times in 14 games. While being held to under 20 in 5 of those games.


Shaq carried Kobe and the Lakers. The stats prove it.


And let's not forget that overall for the playoffs Shaq averaged 30 and 15 in 2000 and 2001 and 29 and 13 in 2002.

It's funny that a guy who averaged basically 16 ppg on 37% in the 2000 is going to get credit for carrying the team.

I mean it's obvious that Kobe did his part for the team but to say he carried them to the finals is absurb.

Why wouldn't Shaq have great number in the Finals, he was playing against an old Rik Smits, Dike Mutombo, and Todd Mccullogh, does anyone know a center who has faced worse competition in the finals? It would have been dumb for LA not to give the ball to Shaq.

Let's revisit Shaq's opponents in the finals: He was guarded primarily by Dale Davis and Rik Smits, mainly was single covered by either player.

In 2001, Larry Brown refused to double O'neal more and Shaq played against an overmatched Mutombo (not exactly and offensive weapon down low).

In 2002, Shaq faced Todd Mcculogh in the finals, is he still in the NBA?

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:17 PM
Then that's something that seperates Havlicek and Kobe. Havlicek lead a team to the championship, Kobe didn't.

Havlicek is not a franchise player. Havlicek was great, but not a franchise guy.

madiaz3
07-31-2008, 04:17 PM
Then that's something that seperates Havlicek and Kobe. Havlicek lead a team to the championship, Kobe didn't.

As the featured player? Why do you attempt to twist certain words to shape your argument while I'm only using the words from the original arguments you're trying to debunk.

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 04:21 PM
You are mentioning the finals, but what were Kobe's numbers prior to the finals? To say that O'neal was the only major force is ridiculous. Obviously, the offense was going to run through Shaq. He was the best player during that time and he was the main man on our team, but people act as if he just carried the Lakers to titles, prior to the finals, they weren't beating San Antonio, Portland, Sac., etc.. without some great games by Kobe.


Here are all of the numbers.

Without Kobe 2000-2002 25-6
31.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.9 bpg, 59.5 FG%

Shaq

1999-2000
Regular Season- 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 59.4 FG%
Playoffs- 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56.6 FG%
Finals- 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57.2 FG%
Playoffs- 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.5 bpg 55.5 FG%
Finals- 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 27.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 57.9 FG%
Playoffs- 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 52.9 FG%
Finals- 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

3 seasons combined
Regular Season- 28.6 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.6 bpg, 57.5 FG%
Playoffs- 29.9 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55.2 FG%
Finals- 35.9 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3.2 bpg, 59.5 FG%


Kobe

1999-2000
Regular Season- 22.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.6 spg 46.8 FG%
Playoffs- 21.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.5 spg, 44.2 FG%
Finals- 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.0 spg, 36.7 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.7 spg, 46.4 FG%
Playoffs- 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 46.9 FG%
Finals- 24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 41.5 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 25.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.5 spg, 46.9 FG%
Playoffs- 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 43.2 FG%
Finals- 26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg, 1.5 spg, 52.9 FG%

3 seasons combined
Regular Season- 25.4 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 46.7 FG%
Playoffs- 25.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.5 spg, 44.7 FG%
Finals- 24.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.3 spg, 42.5 FG%

Shaq outscored Kobe in the regular season, entire playoffs and Finals every year aswell as putting up better numbers and more wins during the games Kobe missed.

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 04:23 PM
It's annoying to read people say, "Well, __________ didn't do it alone. He had teammates." No duh. A guy doesn't play 1-on-5. However, it's also true that on any given championship team there's a guy who's the main reason they are where they are, and everyone else contributes in their own way. But everyone's contributions are not equal. Some players make more of a contribution to the team's success than others, and there's usually one guy without whom the whole thing wouldn't be possible (there have been a couple exceptions in NBA history). It's common freaking sense. It's not devaluing the contribution of the rest of the team, but even the rest of the team themselves would tell you that ____________ was the main reason. It ridiculous that it should even need explaining.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:27 PM
Then that's something that seperates Havlicek and Kobe. Havlicek lead a team to the championship, Kobe didn't.

Kobe led a team to the finals that featured the softest frontcourt in Finals history.

Radmonvic (Was he in the finals? lol)
Odom (Very inconsistent)
Gasol (Good player but a finesse guy)

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:30 PM
Here are all of the numbers.

Without Kobe 2000-2002 25-6
31.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.9 bpg, 59.5 FG%

Shaq

1999-2000
Regular Season- 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 59.4 FG%
Playoffs- 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56.6 FG%
Finals- 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57.2 FG%
Playoffs- 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.5 bpg 55.5 FG%
Finals- 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 27.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 57.9 FG%
Playoffs- 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 52.9 FG%
Finals- 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

3 seasons combined
Regular Season- 28.6 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.6 bpg, 57.5 FG%
Playoffs- 29.9 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55.2 FG%
Finals- 35.9 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3.2 bpg, 59.5 FG%


Kobe

1999-2000
Regular Season- 22.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.6 spg 46.8 FG%
Playoffs- 21.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.5 spg, 44.2 FG%
Finals- 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.0 spg, 36.7 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.7 spg, 46.4 FG%
Playoffs- 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 46.9 FG%
Finals- 24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 41.5 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 25.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.5 spg, 46.9 FG%
Playoffs- 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 43.2 FG%
Finals- 26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg, 1.5 spg, 52.9 FG%

3 seasons combined
Regular Season- 25.4 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 46.7 FG%
Playoffs- 25.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.5 spg, 44.7 FG%
Finals- 24.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.3 spg, 42.5 FG%

Shaq outscored Kobe in the regular season, entire playoffs and Finals every year aswell as putting up better numbers and more wins during the games Kobe missed.

You missed the point, it's irritating to hear that Shaq carried us to 3 titles, no he did not, he was the Main guy, but carry, that's absurd.

YankeeFan89
07-31-2008, 04:30 PM
K-o-b-e

phillyphan4ever
07-31-2008, 04:31 PM
Dr.J

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 04:33 PM
Kobe led a team to the finals that featured the softest frontcourt in Finals history.

Radmonvic (Was he in the finals? lol)
Odom (Very inconsistent)
Gasol (Good player but a finesse guy)

Soft!!!

People only say that after they lost, but that was the same frontcourt that went thru the Nuggets, Jazz and Spurs all physical teams. And that frontcourt pretty much held each of those other frontcourts to worse numbers than those guys had in the season or earlier rounds. The term "soft" in this instance is used as a cop out to say that was the reason the team lost when in fact everyone didn't step up.
Realistically no one on either team really played that good.

madiaz3
07-31-2008, 04:34 PM
Here are all of the numbers.

Shaq outscored Kobe in the regular season, entire playoffs and Finals every year aswell as putting up better numbers and more wins during the games Kobe missed.

Ok, that makes sense if he was trying to say Kobe was the main man on the Lakers, which he or no one else said. Ex. Player A scored 30ppg and Player B scored 25ppg. Those stats alone prove what he was actually trying to argue, Shaq wasn't the only force in the western conference playoffs. Kobe had a large impact as well, there was no real single handedness in either of the playoff runs.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:34 PM
Here are all of the numbers.

Without Kobe 2000-2002 25-6
31.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.9 bpg, 59.5 FG%

Shaq

1999-2000
Regular Season- 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 59.4 FG%
Playoffs- 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56.6 FG%
Finals- 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57.2 FG%
Playoffs- 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.5 bpg 55.5 FG%
Finals- 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 27.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 57.9 FG%
Playoffs- 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 52.9 FG%
Finals- 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

3 seasons combined
Regular Season- 28.6 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.6 bpg, 57.5 FG%
Playoffs- 29.9 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55.2 FG%
Finals- 35.9 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3.2 bpg, 59.5 FG%


Kobe

1999-2000
Regular Season- 22.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.6 spg 46.8 FG%
Playoffs- 21.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.5 spg, 44.2 FG%
Finals- 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.0 spg, 36.7 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.7 spg, 46.4 FG%
Playoffs- 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 46.9 FG%
Finals- 24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 41.5 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 25.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.5 spg, 46.9 FG%
Playoffs- 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 43.2 FG%
Finals- 26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg, 1.5 spg, 52.9 FG%

3 seasons combined
Regular Season- 25.4 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 46.7 FG%
Playoffs- 25.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.5 spg, 44.7 FG%
Finals- 24.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.3 spg, 42.5 FG%

Shaq outscored Kobe in the regular season, entire playoffs and Finals every year aswell as putting up better numbers and more wins during the games Kobe missed.


It's funny how everyone casually overlooks who Shaq was playing i.e. Rik Smits, Mutombo, and Todd Mccullogh.

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 04:37 PM
Ok, that makes sense if he was trying to say Kobe was the main man on the Lakers, which he or no one else said. Ex. Player A scored 30ppg and Player B scored 25ppg. Those stats alone prove what he was actually trying to argue, Shaq wasn't the only force in the western conference playoffs. Kobe had a large impact as well, there was no real single handedness in either of the playoff runs.

He said Kobe took them to the finals.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:39 PM
Soft!!!

People only say that after they lost, but that was the same frontcourt that went thru the Nuggets, Jazz and Spurs all physical teams. And that frontcourt pretty much held each of those other frontcourts to worse numbers than those guys had in the season or earlier rounds. The term "soft" in this instance is used as a cop out to say that was the reason the team lost when in fact everyone didn't step up.
Realistically no one on either team really played that good.

No, it's not used as a cop out.

Gasol's numbers in the finals: 14ppg 9rpg, low impact on both offense and defense

Odom's numbers in the finals: 12ppg, 9rpg, very little impact defensively, his own coach said he was lost out there.

Rad: No need to even mention his numbers.

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 04:41 PM
It's funny how everyone casually overlooks who Shaq was playing i.e. Rik Smits, Mutombo, and Todd Mccullogh.

Mutumbo was DPOY in 2001. So I don't know what you are talking about. Ben Wallace was DPOY in 2004 and Shaq still put up 27 and 11 on 65%.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:42 PM
He said Kobe took them to the finals.

I have repeatedly said Kobe was a major factor, but it would be ridiculous for me to say that he carried us to the finals, Shaq was the main player on the team. I just wanted to point out that Kobe was more valuable than people think, if you examine the numbers, considering he was the 2nd option, those were great numbers for a 1st option player.

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 04:42 PM
No, it's not used as a cop out.

Gasol's numbers in the finals: 14ppg 9rpg, low impact on both offense and defense

Odom's numbers in the finals: 12ppg, 9rpg, very little impact defensively, his own coach said he was lost out there.

Rad: No need to even mention his numbers.

The 2nd and 3rd options on the team still shot over 50% which means they were still effective. Even KG on the opposite team shot in the low 40% range.

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 04:43 PM
I have repeatedly said Kobe was a major factor, but it would be ridiculous for me to say that he carried us to the finals, Shaq was the main player on the team. I just wanted to point out that Kobe was more valuable than people think, if you examine the numbers, considering he was the 2nd option, those were great numbers for a 1st option player.

Of course and I agree, but the "fresh price" replied that Kobe led the Lakers in the western playoffs and then Shaq took over in the finals which is what I was proving was false.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 04:48 PM
Mutumbo was DPOY in 2001. So I don't know what you are talking about. Ben Wallace was DPOY in 2004 and Shaq still put up 27 and 11 on 65%.

You casually did not mention Mccullogh and an old Smits. Mutombo is a good one dimensional center, he is not going to attack on the offensive end of the floor. The Lakers lost in 2004, which I did not bring up. Ben Wallace is 6'9 and 240 lbs, Shaq is 7'1 330 lbs, not even a good example. Wallace is out of position trying to guard the likes of O'neal. Shaq had 4 inches over the man and almost outweighed him by 100 lbs or so. lol

Chronz
07-31-2008, 04:54 PM
I had presented my argument and you said I was ignorant because all that matters is pace...and the pace favors Kobe. What else do you want me to prove?
No I said you were ignorant for comparing stats that way, I said account for pace and possessions then compare. Then you said Tmac turnover rate was hardly microscopic but posted turnovers per game. Again your not accounting for possessions.

Pace and possessions is more than teams pace. But your off to the right start

fresh prince
07-31-2008, 05:57 PM
Are you kidding me?

Here are the stats to prove I am not hating, only telling the truth.

1999-2000 Finals


Shaq scored 43/40/33/36/35/41. He shot 96-157. He averaged 38 PPG and shot 61 % from the field.


Kobe scored 14/2/28/8/26. He shot 33-90. He averaged 15.6 PPG and shot 37% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. He didn't score below 33 in any of the games and Kobe scored below 10 twice. He also didn't have a 30 point game and shot poorly from the field.


2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.



Overall advantage- Shaq. The numbers don't lie in these 3 championship series. Shaq averaged a total of 35.7 PPG during the Three-peat. He only scored under 30 two times in 15 games, that's phenominal.

Kobe averaged only 22.3 PPG. That's 13.4 PPG less than Shaq averaged. He scored over 30 only 3 times in 14 games. While being held to under 20 in 5 of those games.


Shaq carried Kobe and the Lakers. The stats prove it.


And let's not forget that overall for the playoffs Shaq averaged 30 and 15 in 2000 and 2001 and 29 and 13 in 2002.

It's funny that a guy who averaged basically 16 ppg on 37% in the 2000 is going to get credit for carrying the team.

I mean it's obvious that Kobe did his part for the team but to say he carried them to the finals is absurb.

I said Kobe CARRIED THE TEAM through the western conference Playoffs


Not the Finals

SHAQ Dominated IN THE FINALS WHICH IS WHAT YOUR STATS SHOW...

What happened to reading comprehension? I agree Shaq was more dominant in the finals but Kobe was more essential in 2001, AND 2002 to allow the team to get there. He was bannanas against the Spurs and Kings which were our most difficult series.

Averaging 32.5 ppg 6 rpg and 6.4 apg on 49% in those series and setting records for the most 4th qtr pts. ever
Shaq dominated the weaker east teams no doubt:

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 06:21 PM
As the featured player? Why do you attempt to twist certain words to shape your argument while I'm only using the words from the original arguments you're trying to debunk.

He won finals MVP and carried the team to the finals, so yes he was the "featured player".

I'm not twisting any words, Lakersfan is going off on how Havlicek is not a franchise player, putting him on the level of Joe Dumars and Scottie Pippen, and that Kobe is, despite Kobe never having success as the franchise player. And when Kobe did have success he had a smaller role on his team than Havlicek had to his championship teams.

Mr. 3 Stacks
07-31-2008, 06:52 PM
kobe over dr. j, ohhh weeee dunno bout that one

THE MTL
07-31-2008, 07:04 PM
I cant believe Kobe is going to go before Dr. J, Jerry West, Pistol Pete, Karl Malone.

Lakers fans shouldnt be allowed to vote. Just all prepared to get on their hands and knees and suck his dick. Kobe is not Top 15 player to ever play the game. He is NOT! You trying to tell me in an All-Time NBA Team he would be on the second team after Jordan??? Are you serious? Lakers fans stop being so blind.

JordansBulls
07-31-2008, 07:21 PM
I said Kobe CARRIED THE TEAM through the western conference Playoffs


Not the Finals

SHAQ Dominated IN THE FINALS WHICH IS WHAT YOUR STATS SHOW...

What happened to reading comprehension? I agree Shaq was more dominant in the finals but Kobe was more essential in 2001, AND 2002 to allow the team to get there. He was bannanas against the Spurs and Kings which were our most difficult series.

Averaging 32.5 ppg 6 rpg and 6.4 apg on 49% in those series and setting records for the most 4th qtr pts. ever
Shaq dominated the weaker east teams no doubt:


And I showed this post, you must have ducked it.

Shaq

1999-2000
Regular Season- 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 59.4 FG%
Playoffs- 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56.6 FG%
Finals- 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57.2 FG%
Playoffs- 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.5 bpg 55.5 FG%
Finals- 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 27.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 57.9 FG%
Playoffs- 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 52.9 FG%
Finals- 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

3 seasons combined
Regular Season- 28.6 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.6 bpg, 57.5 FG%
Playoffs- 29.9 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55.2 FG%
Finals- 35.9 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3.2 bpg, 59.5 FG%


Kobe

1999-2000
Regular Season- 22.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.6 spg 46.8 FG%
Playoffs- 21.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.5 spg, 44.2 FG%
Finals- 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.0 spg, 36.7 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.7 spg, 46.4 FG%
Playoffs- 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 46.9 FG%
Finals- 24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 41.5 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 25.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.5 spg, 46.9 FG%
Playoffs- 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 43.2 FG%
Finals- 26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg, 1.5 spg, 52.9 FG%

3 seasons combined
Regular Season- 25.4 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 46.7 FG%
Playoffs- 25.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.5 spg, 44.7 FG%
Finals- 24.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.3 spg, 42.5 FG%

Shaq outscored Kobe in the regular season, entire playoffs and Finals every year as well as putting up better numbers and more wins during the games Kobe missed.

Westbrook36
07-31-2008, 08:00 PM
I said Kobe CARRIED THE TEAM through the western conference Playoffs


Not the Finals

SHAQ Dominated IN THE FINALS WHICH IS WHAT YOUR STATS SHOW...

What happened to reading comprehension? I agree Shaq was more dominant in the finals but Kobe was more essential in 2001, AND 2002 to allow the team to get there. He was bannanas against the Spurs and Kings which were our most difficult series.

Averaging 32.5 ppg 6 rpg and 6.4 apg on 49% in those series and setting records for the most 4th qtr pts. ever
Shaq dominated the weaker east teams no doubt:

Shaq Carried the older Laker Teams..No doubt about it..

Crunchy12489
07-31-2008, 08:01 PM
I cant believe Kobe is going to go before Dr. J, Jerry West, Pistol Pete, Karl Malone.

Lakers fans shouldnt be allowed to vote. Just all prepared to get on their hands and knees and suck his dick. Kobe is not Top 15 player to ever play the game. He is NOT! You trying to tell me in an All-Time NBA Team he would be on the second team after Jordan??? Are you serious? Lakers fans stop being so blind.

That's what I'm saying :rolleyes:

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 08:11 PM
I cant believe Kobe is going to go before Dr. J, Jerry West, Pistol Pete, Karl Malone.

Lakers fans shouldnt be allowed to vote. Just all prepared to get on their hands and knees and suck his dick. Kobe is not Top 15 player to ever play the game. He is NOT! You trying to tell me in an All-Time NBA Team he would be on the second team after Jordan??? Are you serious? Lakers fans stop being so blind.

The definition of ignorance, you have no real argument as to why he shouldn't be, we don't need ******** comments like this.

Chronz
07-31-2008, 08:15 PM
Whats with the lame definition of ignorance posts? Is that like the sentence of the day or something?

The Blue Baller
07-31-2008, 08:17 PM
It really depends on what criteria you're using

I guess I feel like a significant portion of a player's legacy is constructed by his or her popularity, which is constucted in a large part by the media. I'm not trying to take anything away from players in cities like LA, Chi, Bos, etc..., but I do believe (in a hypothetical situation) that player A from L.A. who may have the same stats as player B from, say, Atlanta, would generally be viewed as a better player, whether or not he actually is.

Also, I'm not going to knock a player if he can't win a championship. It's a team game. If you base it on rings alone, Robert Horry would be one of the best the league has ever seen. Does that sound right to anyone?

I honestly think this is John Stockton's spot. I understand theres no stats or awards for things like leadership, heart, loyalty, toughness, etc..., but I do think there's something to be said about them, and he had as much, or more, than anyone else. I understand he didn't win any championships-- I also understand that the competition he was playing against (Magic's Lakers, Larry's Celtics, Jordan's Bulls) are legendary dynasties. He wasn't exactly playing against some of the more recent "championship contenders" like the Sixers, Nets, or Cavs when he was in his prime.

We're talking about a guy who not only has more assists than anyone the league as ever seen, but roughly one and a half times as many as second place. That's how unselfish he was and how much better he wanted to make his teammates. It wasn't that he couldn't shoot-- he shot better than .500 (very rare for a backcourt player) over his career, and is 33rd all time in points-- he was just more interested in finding the best shot. There's no other statistical category with that much discrepency between 1st and 2nd place. The next closest would probably be steals, which Stockton is also 1st in, and where the next best, Michael Jordan, only had about 80% of what he did. Points, Rebounds... there's always someone pretty close behind. With Stockton, no one comes close.
I understand Utah isn't the sexiest basketball city ever, and no one's favorite player is going to come from there, but at some point, you have to look at how good Stockton was at what he did, and give him a little credit for it.

Chronz
07-31-2008, 08:25 PM
That was refreshing to read, but Stockton isnt in Kobes league much less the Dr

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 08:29 PM
I cant believe Kobe is going to go before Dr. J, Jerry West, Pistol Pete, Karl Malone.

Lakers fans shouldnt be allowed to vote. Just all prepared to get on their hands and knees and suck his dick. Kobe is not Top 15 player to ever play the game. He is NOT! You trying to tell me in an All-Time NBA Team he would be on the second team after Jordan??? Are you serious? Lakers fans stop being so blind.

If you would like to debate, bring some facts to your claims and not just ignorant comments. Kobe Bryant just finished his 12th season, has 3 titles, an MVP, 2 all star mvps, several all nba 1st teams, several all nba defensive 1st teams, ranks right by Larry Bird for 24th all time in scoring at 21, 619 pts, with the exception of Malone, his career avg. of 25ppg, 5apg, 5rpg is higher than the players you mentioned earlier. At his current pace, he will be ranked in the top ten all time in scoring and he has not even reached his 30th birthday. He has set several season records for the lakers, ranks in the top 5 all time in laker playoff scoring, and ranks no. 12 all time in ppg avg, ranks in the top all time in spg, apg, and is in the top ten all time in career playoff points

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 08:30 PM
I cant believe Kobe is going to go before Dr. J, Jerry West, Pistol Pete, Karl Malone.

Lakers fans shouldnt be allowed to vote. Just all prepared to get on their hands and knees and suck his dick. Kobe is not Top 15 player to ever play the game. He is NOT! You trying to tell me in an All-Time NBA Team he would be on the second team after Jordan??? Are you serious? Lakers fans stop being so blind.

Bring some facts

obrpunk
07-31-2008, 08:31 PM
very hard man...i went stockton, but it was hard...Dr.J was my other choice...

MiamiHeat
07-31-2008, 08:33 PM
kobe the 11th best player? :confused:
his winning right now

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 08:34 PM
Whats with the lame definition of ignorance posts? Is that like the sentence of the day or something?

No facts to support his ridiculous comments hince the use of the word "Ignorant".

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 08:37 PM
It really depends on what criteria you're using

I guess I feel like a significant portion of a player's legacy is constructed by his or her popularity, which is constucted in a large part by the media. I'm not trying to take anything away from players in cities like LA, Chi, Bos, etc..., but I do believe (in a hypothetical situation) that player A from L.A. who may have the same stats as player B from, say, Atlanta, would generally be viewed as a better player, whether or not he actually is.

Also, I'm not going to knock a player if he can't win a championship. It's a team game. If you base it on rings alone, Robert Horry would be one of the best the league has ever seen. Does that sound right to anyone?

I honestly think this is John Stockton's spot. I understand theres no stats or awards for things like leadership, heart, loyalty, toughness, etc..., but I do think there's something to be said about them, and he had as much, or more, than anyone else. I understand he didn't win any championships-- I also understand that the competition he was playing against (Magic's Lakers, Larry's Celtics, Jordan's Bulls) are legendary dynasties. He wasn't exactly playing against some of the more recent "championship contenders" like the Sixers, Nets, or Cavs when he was in his prime.

We're talking about a guy who not only has more assists than anyone the league as ever seen, but roughly one and a half times as many as second place. That's how unselfish he was and how much better he wanted to make his teammates. It wasn't that he couldn't shoot-- he shot better than .500 (very rare for a backcourt player) over his career, and is 33rd all time in points-- he was just more interested in finding the best shot. There's no other statistical category with that much discrepency between 1st and 2nd place. The next closest would probably be steals, which Stockton is also 1st in, and where the next best, Michael Jordan, only had about 80% of what he did. Points, Rebounds... there's always someone pretty close behind. With Stockton, no one comes close.
I understand Utah isn't the sexiest basketball city ever, and no one's favorite player is going to come from there, but at some point, you have to look at how good Stockton was at what he did, and give him a little credit for it.

Great post, if I had to give an example of the prototypical point guard, it would be John Stockton. I have him ranked behind Magic, Oscar, and Isaiah for 4th best point guard all time.

Chronz
07-31-2008, 08:47 PM
No facts to support his ridiculous comments hince the use of the word "Ignorant".
Yea but havent you used that line like 5 times in this thread?

Besides hes just voicing his opinion, if he wants to engage in a debate he would have quoted one of the hundreds or so posts in here. Its plenty obvious your a die hard Kobe pleaser, why else would you quote the same guy 4 times?

nrvana
07-31-2008, 08:57 PM
It really depends on what criteria you're using

I guess I feel like a significant portion of a player's legacy is constructed by his or her popularity, which is constucted in a large part by the media. I'm not trying to take anything away from players in cities like LA, Chi, Bos, etc..., but I do believe (in a hypothetical situation) that player A from L.A. who may have the same stats as player B from, say, Atlanta, would generally be viewed as a better player, whether or not he actually is.

Also, I'm not going to knock a player if he can't win a championship. It's a team game. If you base it on rings alone, Robert Horry would be one of the best the league has ever seen. Does that sound right to anyone?

I honestly think this is John Stockton's spot. I understand theres no stats or awards for things like leadership, heart, loyalty, toughness, etc..., but I do think there's something to be said about them, and he had as much, or more, than anyone else. I understand he didn't win any championships-- I also understand that the competition he was playing against (Magic's Lakers, Larry's Celtics, Jordan's Bulls) are legendary dynasties. He wasn't exactly playing against some of the more recent "championship contenders" like the Sixers, Nets, or Cavs when he was in his prime.

We're talking about a guy who not only has more assists than anyone the league as ever seen, but roughly one and a half times as many as second place. That's how unselfish he was and how much better he wanted to make his teammates. It wasn't that he couldn't shoot-- he shot better than .500 (very rare for a backcourt player) over his career, and is 33rd all time in points-- he was just more interested in finding the best shot. There's no other statistical category with that much discrepency between 1st and 2nd place. The next closest would probably be steals, which Stockton is also 1st in, and where the next best, Michael Jordan, only had about 80% of what he did. Points, Rebounds... there's always someone pretty close behind. With Stockton, no one comes close.
I understand Utah isn't the sexiest basketball city ever, and no one's favorite player is going to come from there, but at some point, you have to look at how good Stockton was at what he did, and give him a little credit for it.

yep good post. i was the first to vote for stockton because he doesn't get a lot of credit and his teams always ran into jordan's buzzsaw bulls in the finals. i appreciated and respected the way he played the game.

Lakersfan2483
07-31-2008, 09:02 PM
Yea but havent you used that line like 5 times in this thread?

Besides hes just voicing his opinion, if he wants to engage in a debate he would have quoted one of the hundreds or so posts in here. Its plenty obvious your a die hard Kobe pleaser, why else would you quote the same guy 4 times?

No, first and foremost, I am a Laker fan and a basketball fan and give credit where credit should be given. I have seen all the greats and have studied the game, if people make ludicrous comments, I will call them out just like the others that post on here. I base my arguments on facts not opinion.

From a pure basketball perspective, I was simply pointing out why Kobe is ranked so high, the man is a remarkable talent. He has done some things (during the regular season) that only Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain have done, just giving the man his just due. 10 straight 40 plus point games, 62 pts in 3 quarters, 81 pts in a game, three point record, not to mention going to the finals 5 times, 3 titles and countless other accolades and things of that nature that he has and the fact that if you account for those things, that would put him in the top 15 all time. He also ranks in the top ten all time in total playoff scoring, which is huge, and his career playoff ppg is one of the ten highest as well. He's always tops in the league scoring, steals, and assists, and rebs. in terms of guards. I just wanted to point out facts not opinon.

Chronz
07-31-2008, 09:12 PM
No, first and foremost, I am a Laker fan and a basketball fan and give credit to whom credit is due. I have seen all the greats and have studied the game, if people make ludicrous comments, I will call them out just like the others that post on here. I base my arguments on facts not opinion.
What comes first, being a Laker fan or a basketball fan is my only question. If the guy feels Kobe isnt a top 15 player thats his opinion, and Ill tell you this much its not more ludicrous than you calling him ignorant for expressing it. You want to debate with him so be it, but thinking Kobe shouldnt be rated this high is far from ignorance.


From a pure basketball perspective, I was simply pointing out why Kobe is ranked so high, the man is a remarkable talent.
This isnt my debate so Im not going to dig too much into what your saying but this part really stood out to me. What else would we be judging Kobe by? I thought the whole premise of ranking these guys was what they did as ball players.


He has done some things (during the regular season) that only Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain have done, just giving the man his just due. 10 straight 40 plus point games, 62 pts in 3 quarters, 81 pts in a game, three point record, not to mention going to the finals 5 times, 3 titles and countless other accolades and things of that nature that he has and the fact that if you account for those things, that would put him in the top 15 all time. He also ranks in the top ten all time in total playoff scoring, which is huge, and his career playoff ppg is one of the ten highest as well. He's always tops in the league scoring, steals, and assists, and rebs. in terms of guards. I just wanted to point out facts not opinon.

Every player on this list has their claim to fame, and every fan of those players can use the give him his due explanation.

THE MTL
07-31-2008, 09:17 PM
Bring some facts

Ok, you want facts why Erving is better than Kobe.

Julius Erving puts up better stats than Kobe. I dont feel like embedding the website in my post but you welcome to check it on google. BUt Erving would give you 25pts, 8 rebs, 4.5 assists, 2 blocks, 2 steals. Kobe cant fill it up like that.

Dr. J clearly has more achievements than Kobe at the current time. But I know you are going to say that Kobe aint play as much. However I would bring up the same issue on Lebron James cause once its all said and done Lebron James will crush everyone whose name is not Jordan/Chamberlain.

But one fact is that Dr. J is one of five players in the 30,000 career point club. This is including his ABA career however his ABA stats arent necessarily better than his NBA stats which shows an even amount of competition in both leagues.

Dr. J pioneered the flashy moves. The dunks he INVENTED. Without Dr. J, there would be no Kobe.

THE MTL
07-31-2008, 09:20 PM
The definition of ignorance, you have no real argument as to why he shouldn't be, we don't need ******** comments like this.

NO its called the definition of being on someone's nuts! Not too long ago when this "Top PSD players of All-time Thread" was at #4. You know Kobe Bryant almost beat Magic! It was ashame and that made me realize how much you guys are on Kobe's dick. Kobe had the second most votes behind Magic for 4th spot. Are you serious???? And then alot of us "Smart fans" told the leader of the thread to take KObe name off the poll (prpbi the only reason Kobe aint go Top 7).

THE MTL
07-31-2008, 09:27 PM
Dr. J is an all-time great, and I have all the respect for him, but I think the players mentioned above are ahead of him.

Like Kobe lol. But you're a Lakers fan, I bet you were one of the guys that had Kobe finish second place behind Magic Johnson as the 4th best player of all-time. lol. Get off his nuts.

Crunchy12489
07-31-2008, 09:28 PM
It really depends on what criteria you're using

I guess I feel like a significant portion of a player's legacy is constructed by his or her popularity, which is constucted in a large part by the media. I'm not trying to take anything away from players in cities like LA, Chi, Bos, etc..., but I do believe (in a hypothetical situation) that player A from L.A. who may have the same stats as player B from, say, Atlanta, would generally be viewed as a better player, whether or not he actually is.

Also, I'm not going to knock a player if he can't win a championship. It's a team game. If you base it on rings alone, Robert Horry would be one of the best the league has ever seen. Does that sound right to anyone?

I honestly think this is John Stockton's spot. I understand theres no stats or awards for things like leadership, heart, loyalty, toughness, etc..., but I do think there's something to be said about them, and he had as much, or more, than anyone else. I understand he didn't win any championships-- I also understand that the competition he was playing against (Magic's Lakers, Larry's Celtics, Jordan's Bulls) are legendary dynasties. He wasn't exactly playing against some of the more recent "championship contenders" like the Sixers, Nets, or Cavs when he was in his prime.

We're talking about a guy who not only has more assists than anyone the league as ever seen, but roughly one and a half times as many as second place. That's how unselfish he was and how much better he wanted to make his teammates. It wasn't that he couldn't shoot-- he shot better than .500 (very rare for a backcourt player) over his career, and is 33rd all time in points-- he was just more interested in finding the best shot. There's no other statistical category with that much discrepency between 1st and 2nd place. The next closest would probably be steals, which Stockton is also 1st in, and where the next best, Michael Jordan, only had about 80% of what he did. Points, Rebounds... there's always someone pretty close behind. With Stockton, no one comes close.
I understand Utah isn't the sexiest basketball city ever, and no one's favorite player is going to come from there, but at some point, you have to look at how good Stockton was at what he did, and give him a little credit for it.

That's who I voted for. Top 10 all time stealer, top 10 all time passer, and his scoring game was up to par as well.

Definitely an unforgettable legend.

I was curious to see who voted for Kobe at #11 spot.

Check the people who voted for him... Clearly it's biased... Most of the guys who voted for him are Kobe homers and/or Laker homers... Check their sigs/avatars/etc...

I'm glad we have the option to see who votes for what.... We can see the truth

lalakobe24
07-31-2008, 09:38 PM
look at dr j go with the comeback hahaha

Crunchy12489
07-31-2008, 09:39 PM
John Stockton is getting robbed :(

If John Stockton is considered #11 of all time (he should be), then there is no way Kobe is top 15 of all time.

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 09:41 PM
No, first and foremost, I am a Laker fan and a basketball fan and give credit where credit should be given. I have seen all the greats and have studied the game, if people make ludicrous comments, I will call them out just like the others that post on here. I base my arguments on facts not opinion.

From a pure basketball perspective, I was simply pointing out why Kobe is ranked so high, the man is a remarkable talent. He has done some things (during the regular season) that only Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain have done, just giving the man his just due. 10 straight 40 plus point games, 62 pts in 3 quarters, 81 pts in a game, three point record, not to mention going to the finals 5 times, 3 titles and countless other accolades and things of that nature that he has and the fact that if you account for those things, that would put him in the top 15 all time. He also ranks in the top ten all time in total playoff scoring, which is huge, and his career playoff ppg is one of the ten highest as well. He's always tops in the league scoring, steals, and assists, and rebs. in terms of guards. I just wanted to point out facts not opinon.

Yeah. We know Kobe is a great player. Now show us why he should be ahead of Havlicek.

ARMIN12NBA
07-31-2008, 09:47 PM
Ok, you want facts why Erving is better than Kobe.

Julius Erving puts up better stats than Kobe. I dont feel like embedding the website in my post but you welcome to check it on google. BUt Erving would give you 25pts, 8 rebs, 4.5 assists, 2 blocks, 2 steals. Kobe cant fill it up like that.

Dr. J clearly has more achievements than Kobe at the current time. But I know you are going to say that Kobe aint play as much. However I would bring up the same issue on Lebron James cause once its all said and done Lebron James will crush everyone whose name is not Jordan/Chamberlain.

But one fact is that Dr. J is one of five players in the 30,000 career point club. This is including his ABA career however his ABA stats arent necessarily better than his NBA stats which shows an even amount of competition in both leagues.

Dr. J pioneered the flashy moves. The dunks he INVENTED. Without Dr. J, there would be no Kobe.

Dr. J averaged 22 PPG, 3.9 APG, and 6.7 RPG
Kobe averaged 25 PPG, 4.6 APG, and 5.3 RPG

That seems pretty even to me. I guess Kobe could fill it up like Julius.

Achievements:

Julius Erving: 1 time MVP, 2 time All-Star MVP, 1 time NBA Champion, 11 All-Star Games, 7 All-NBA teams, 22.0 PER (you guys love this stat), Win Shares- Career NBA 125.0 (21).

Kobe Bryant: 1 time MVP, 2 time All-Star MVP, 3 time NBA Champion, 10 All-Star Games, 10 All-NBA teams, 8 All-NBA Defensive team (Dr. J doesn't have this), 23.6 PER, Win Shares- Career NBA 128.5 (19)

They have the same number of MVPs.
They have the same number of All-Star MVPs
Kobe has two more championships (don't say he rode Shaq because you can say Dr. J rode Moses Malone who won the Finals MVPs)
Julius has one more All-Star Game, but Kobe will surely surpass this.
Kobe has more All-NBA teams...already
Kobe has 8 more All-NBA Defensive teams
Kobe has a HIGHER PER, which you guys love this stat
Kobe has a higher win share

I think they are both very close to each other, but give the edge to Kobe. BUT for anyone to say that Kobe "isn't even close" or that this is "ridiculous" has no knowledge for the game of basketball and simply does not want to see Kobe on this list.

BTW in the NBA where Julius played 12 years and Kobe played 12 years. Julius has a career 18, 364 points and Kobe has a career 21,619 points.

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 09:49 PM
I love how you have to take out Julius Erving's years in the ABA just to make him even close with Kobe Bryant.

ARMIN12NBA
07-31-2008, 09:52 PM
I love how you have to take out Julius Erving's years in the ABA just to make him even close with Kobe Bryant.

This is the NBA's eleventh greatest player and not the ABA's. I am not going to include the ABA because that was a secondary league to the NBA and should not count into somebodys NBA career...

GregOden#1
07-31-2008, 09:56 PM
The ABA was as strong as the NBA in its final years, if we count Kareem's 73-76 years then we should count Erving's 73-76 years as well.