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View Full Version : Is Hamilton's production just a case of being in the right place at the right time?



pad1
07-27-2008, 11:57 PM
Josh Hamilton has the guy that leads the league in how many times he scored (Kinsler) along with Young. At a hot ballpark where homers fly. And if JH were on any other team, he wouldn't have nearly as much offensive output as he does now.

Do you guys agree?

SJ5382
07-27-2008, 11:59 PM
There's no doubt that the lineup he has around him beefs up his RBI numbers, but he is still having a spectacular season. It is one thing to be in an offensive powerhouse lineup, but another thing to get the clutch hits with RISP and produce in it.

pad1
07-28-2008, 12:02 AM
So here is the question, if would he have anywhere close to the numbers he has in Texas any where else?

Run Gardner Run
07-28-2008, 12:03 AM
You have to give him credit for what hes done, but Arod has a better AVG and only 3 less homeruns in 15 less games, and on a team that still has playoff hope. So to call him a MVP is a little ridiculous

yojoe792
07-28-2008, 12:26 AM
In a way, but it's not a matter of black or white. I think he has around 85-90 RBI's even on a team like the Padres with the season he's having. There is a chance he would have 115 RBI's on a team like the Yankees, Mets or Sox.

The fact of the matter is that he is a great hitter and will produce on any team. His lineup will either raise or lower his numbers however, but do not offset the fact he is great.

Yendil
07-28-2008, 12:42 AM
You have to give him credit for what hes done, but Arod has a better AVG and only 3 less homeruns in 15 less games, and on a team that still has playoff hope. So to call him a MVP is a little ridiculous

Hamilton is more of a reason why the Rangers have won so many where as AROD is to the Yankees. That ways heavily on MVP voting.

torontocubs
07-28-2008, 12:49 AM
I think you have to look at it that it could easily be the opposite scenario of what you have posted. Does Josh make Young and Kinsler better offensively with him hitting behind them? Those guys benefit from the fact that you would rather throw a fastball to them early and induce a ground ball than to pitch to Hamilton and risk the fact that it winds up five hundred feet away.

Allabouthephils
07-28-2008, 01:23 AM
This kid is a phenom... Bonds never got RBI totals like this and it's because he never had hitters around him... Is Hamilton as good a hitter as Bonds ??? No not even close... But, that doesn't mean the lineup is the reason for the RBI totals... The kid has to drive em in... If you put Willie Harris in his spot in the Rangers lineup, Harris isn't going to have 1/3 of his RBIs...

MiaBeastley
07-28-2008, 02:03 AM
It has a little bit to do with the team but it wouldnt change his numbers drastically if he was on a different team, obviousely he wouldnt have that many rbi's if he was on a team where the hitters in front of him had a horendous obp

natepro
07-28-2008, 03:12 AM
Of course it is. If he was on a team without men on base in front of him, his RBI totals would be much lower. And that wouldn't matter, because RBI's don't matter.

Also, he's not clutch. No one is. He's a guy who's good at hitting a baseball. Sometimes he hits the baseball when there are runners on. Sometimes he hits the baseball when the bases are empty. None of this changes the fact that he's good at hitting a baseball.

McPeak92
07-28-2008, 04:19 AM
There's no doubt that the lineup he has around him beefs up his RBI numbers, but he is still having a spectacular season. It is one thing to be in an offensive powerhouse lineup, but another thing to get the clutch hits with RISP and produce in it.

pretty much sums it up

bartoron
07-28-2008, 08:20 AM
Playing in Arlington does help to some extent, but it's mostly because he's one of the best players in the league. Milton Bradley, on the other hand, is in the right place at the right time.

natepro
07-28-2008, 08:45 AM
Ironic, given that Bradley's OPS+ is higher than Hamilton's.

viktor06
07-28-2008, 08:49 AM
RISP .341 .388 .642 1.030
Men On .325 .368 .626 .994
Bases Empty .284 .357 .478 .835

I'd say he's pretty clutch.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-28-2008, 09:22 AM
RBI's are always dependent on the team around you.

torontocubs
07-28-2008, 09:27 AM
It is not simply a statistical coincidence that both Hamilton and Ryan Howard lead their leagues in RBI as well as both feature huge splits between what the hit with men on and RISP and with no men on base.

There is something as clutch hitting. Get over it.

Ron_Mexico
07-28-2008, 09:30 AM
Even on last place teams Hamilton would still be producing at close to this level. The Mariners, Orioles, and Indians all have great leadoff hitters. He may suffer a little on teams like the Padres and Giants, but even on the Padres he would see good pitches with Gonzalez batting behind him. The ballpark helps, but this guy does more than just hit home runs. If he was on the Padres, I think he would still have 20HR, 90RBI.

Iceman99
07-28-2008, 09:32 AM
Why does it not surprise me that Arod gets brought in.

But if you look at A rods 2nd season. I will not count 1994, He hit 36 HRs and 123 RBIs. And that was on a team that was pretty powerful if I remember right. Granted Arod also almost hit 360 that season.

But if you take 95/96 for ARod. 41 HR in 743 AB with 142 RBIs
And if you say Arods first 2 years were limited
Then even using 96/97 - Arod hit 59 HRs 207 RBIs in 1188 AB.

JH has 43 HRs 150 RBIs in 709 AB

Now granted I know this is about the MVP thing when Arod was brought up. And yes the Yanks have alot of talent to clear the bases in front of Arod. But Arod is not even the MVP of the Yankees so how could he be for the league. That is why my vote would go for JH.

bartoron
07-28-2008, 09:50 AM
Ironic, given that Bradley's OPS+ is higher than Hamilton's.

How is that ironic? I seriously think a large part of Bradley's performance this year is that he has a ton of good hitters in front of him (Kinsler, Young, and Hamilton) who are always getting on base. He also plays in Arlington, which helps a lot. The reason I said that Hamilton's case isn't based as much on being in the right place at the right time as Bradley's is would be because Bradley has never been this good before, and no one would ever have expected to be this good. Hamilton was once one of the best prospects of all time, so seeing him do this isn't that far-fetched.

The Schmooze
07-28-2008, 10:04 AM
no matter what team you play on, the game doesnt change. Would he have a little less RBIs on a worse team? you could argue that....but most of his HRs are bombs and what team you're on doesnt affect your .BA either

JROLL17MVP
07-28-2008, 10:08 AM
There is a slight chance though, that if he was not on as good of a team ex: padres then they could pitch around him. If you are the only player on your team who can produce you won't get as many run-scoring chances. You now get intentionally walked more often. This leads to a worse season on a bad team, how much worse could it get?

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-28-2008, 10:17 AM
There is a slight chance though, that if he was not on as good of a team ex: padres then they could pitch around him. If you are the only player on your team who can produce you won't get as many run-scoring chances. You now get intentionally walked more often. This leads to a worse season on a bad team, how much worse could it get?

Teams constantly pitch around pujols.

WCF23
07-28-2008, 10:20 AM
I think its funny any of you guys are trying to down play what Hamilton has done. I think he has been amazing for the game of baseball and I love how he goes out and plays hard everyday on top of being extremely fun to watch. Who cares what he would be doing in another lineup because he is in the Texas lineup. If the season ended today he would be the AL MVP, but there is still a lot of baseball left to be played.

ShinobiNYC
07-28-2008, 12:21 PM
Hamilton is more of a reason why the Rangers have won so many where as AROD is to the Yankees. That ways heavily on MVP voting.

True but both Bradley and Kinsler are as important to why they are where they are now not just Hamilton while for Alex the team was under .500 when he was injured and now is 12 games over .500 since he came back.

ShinobiNYC
07-28-2008, 12:26 PM
Why does it not surprise me that Arod gets brought in.

But if you look at A rods 2nd season. I will not count 1994, He hit 36 HRs and 123 RBIs. And that was on a team that was pretty powerful if I remember right. Granted Arod also almost hit 360 that season.

But if you take 95/96 for ARod. 41 HR in 743 AB with 142 RBIs
And if you say Arods first 2 years were limited
Then even using 96/97 - Arod hit 59 HRs 207 RBIs in 1188 AB.

JH has 43 HRs 150 RBIs in 709 AB

Now granted I know this is about the MVP thing when Arod was brought up. And yes the Yanks have alot of talent to clear the bases in front of Arod. But Arod is not even the MVP of the Yankees so how could he be for the league. That is why my vote would go for JH.

So you are telling me that having Posada and Matsui all but gone now an both Jeter and Abreu are having their worst season since 1997 and yet A-Rod has a 166 OPS+ with a .597 SLG(Hamilton has a 140 PS+ and a .547 SLG) and yet you say he isn't even the MVP of his team? We were a losing team without him and now we are 12 games over .500....And that's without 2 very important offensive contributors in Matsui and Posada who usually hit behind him. Hamilton has the best hitter in the league hitting behind him and
the best leadoff hitter in the league in front of him(Kinsler leads the league in BA).

vigilantex69
07-28-2008, 12:37 PM
I think it has a little bit to do with it, but the fact that Sammy Sosa was in the exact same lineup last season with Kinsler and Young and he didn't do anything at all. I think when you conjoin good players it makes everyone better. But I definately think Hamilton will win MVP, just for his performance at the Home Run Derby as well as he will lead the league in every category and he has a good story.

Humongo
07-28-2008, 12:41 PM
The lineup around him has everything to do with it. RBIs are of no importance though, so if you want a make a case for him "being in the right place at the right time" you'd want to discuss how the lineup has affected his OPS or something of that nature.

SportsFan1988
07-28-2008, 12:43 PM
Nothing to take away from Hamiltons season, but his high numbers have a lot to do with the other players batting around him, if you put a Carlos Beltran or a Vernon Wells on that team in his spot they would probably be putting up numbers very similar to Hamiltons...still a great player, just not AS good as some might think him to be.

bosox3431
07-28-2008, 12:47 PM
Of course it is. If he was on a team without men on base in front of him, his RBI totals would be much lower. And that wouldn't matter, because RBI's don't matter.

Also, he's not clutch. No one is. He's a guy who's good at hitting a baseball. Sometimes he hits the baseball when there are runners on. Sometimes he hits the baseball when the bases are empty. None of this changes the fact that he's good at hitting a baseball.

I dont agree RBI's dont matter. They may not be as important as some like to say they are, but to say they dont matter is far fetched. Because I guarntee you if a Coco Crisp or someone like him were batting in Hamilton's spot, they wouldnt be sniffing 90 RBI's. RBI numbers do depend on the player somewhat, even if it's because of the team too.

ShinobiNYC
07-28-2008, 12:47 PM
I think it has a little bit to do with it, but the fact that Sammy Sosa was in the exact same lineup last season with Kinsler and Young and he didn't do anything at all. I think when you conjoin good players it makes everyone better. But I definately think Hamilton will win MVP, just for his performance at the Home Run Derby as well as he will lead the league in every category and he has a good story.

He won't win .BA or HRs categories, about the lineup he has Bradley who has a 173 OPS+ hitting behind him so of course he'll see better pitches than if for example he had Sosa who had a 102 OPS+ I believe last year behind him. Huge difference.

bosox3431
07-28-2008, 12:50 PM
Nothing to take away from Hamiltons season, but his high numbers have a lot to do with the other players batting around him, if you put a Carlos Beltran or a Vernon Wells on that team in his spot they would probably be putting up numbers very similar to Hamiltons...still a great player, just not AS good as some might think him to be.

yea and if you put coco crisp there, he dosent have near 90 rbi's

ShinobiNYC
07-28-2008, 12:50 PM
What David Wright is doing is more impressive imo, he has 82 RBIs when you know that he didn't have a good protection(Beltran was hittiing most of the year behind him and he doesn't even have a .500 SLG). Add the fact that Shea Stadium is pretty pitchers friendly.

My MVP votes for the AL would probably be:

1- Quentin
2- A-Rod
3- Kinsler
4- Hamilton

Jhoff
07-28-2008, 01:15 PM
Ive followed Josh since he was drafted by the Rays in 1999. If you told me then that he would be putting up these numbers now i wouldnt be surprised. In fact, I would have wondered why it took him so long to get to this point. Old timers used to compare his ability to that of guys like Mays and Mantle. This is one of if not the most all around talented ballplayer on the planet. Just take a look at what his skills set shows. The coordination and talent to be a .300+ hitter with out of this world power(in my mind, probably the best raw power in the bigs), underrated speed, great defensive OF(great routes, great jumps etc) and possibly the best arm in the league(was looked at coming out of high school as a 6'5 flamethrowing lefty that pumped it as high as 98). In my mind, a true 5 tool talent. One of the most gifted to ever pick up a bat or wear a glove. Wish he could have those 3-4 years back. He could have been doing this at 21

GHOSTSNIPER
07-28-2008, 01:45 PM
Good player

pad1
07-28-2008, 01:53 PM
What David Wright is doing is more impressive imo, he has 82 RBIs when you know that he didn't have a good protection(Beltran was hittiing most of the year behind him and he doesn't even have a .500 SLG). Add the fact that Shea Stadium is pretty pitchers friendly.

My MVP votes for the AL would probably be:

1- Quentin
2- A-Rod
3- Kinsler
4- Hamilton

Ok, I am not saying this because I am a padres fan, but Adrian Gonzalez has just as many RBI's as Wright and he is on one of the worst teams in the league at the hardest park to homer at and the biggest pitchers park ever. Putting Wright as a person that has been impressive this year, though he kinda is, can't be put better than some of these guys that have a ton of RBI's mostly thanks to their own doing, without a teammate's support of hits.

nrvana
07-28-2008, 02:05 PM
the rangers have the most rbi's (285 rbi's) on the road. it's not the just the ballpark in texas. in fact.. we have have 3 road trips left and play a huge amount of home games.. but to answer your question, of course he's in the right place at the right time.

hamilton has gotten to the point where he's mature enough and came to texas where everything came together. the whole texas lineup 1-9 is the best in baseball. everyone contributes.

nrvana
07-28-2008, 02:07 PM
the rangers have the most rbi's (285 rbi's) on the road. it's not the just the ballpark in texas. in fact.. we have have 3 road trips left and play a huge amount of home games.. but to answer your question, of course he's in the right place at the right time.

hamilton has gotten to the point where he's mature enough and came to texas where everything came together. the whole texas lineup 1-9 is the best in baseball.

pad1
07-28-2008, 02:25 PM
The hot weather in Texas helps the balls get out. But yes, they do have a great lineup.

ShinobiNYC
07-28-2008, 02:26 PM
Ok, I am not saying this because I am a padres fan, but Adrian Gonzalez has just as many RBI's as Wright and he is on one of the worst teams in the league at the hardest park to homer at and the biggest pitchers park ever. Putting Wright as a person that has been impressive this year, though he kinda is, can't be put better than some of these guys that have a ton of RBI's mostly thanks to their own doing, without a teammate's support of hits.

Gonzalez hits cleanup, both Wright and Hamilton hits 3rd that's why the comparison.

pad1
07-28-2008, 02:30 PM
Oh, ok. :horse:

m26555
07-28-2008, 02:47 PM
Of course it is. If he was on a team without men on base in front of him, his RBI totals would be much lower. And that wouldn't matter, because RBI's don't matter.

Also, he's not clutch. No one is. He's a guy who's good at hitting a baseball. Sometimes he hits the baseball when there are runners on. Sometimes he hits the baseball when the bases are empty. None of this changes the fact that he's good at hitting a baseball.
Another person in denial..If that's the case, then A-Rod is a TERRIBLE hitter because the guy is batting .067 in late inning pressure w/ runners on.

CLUTCH EXISTS PEOPLE. GOD.

Oh, and RBI don't matter? lol..okay.

Allabouthephils
07-28-2008, 02:48 PM
f%ck all of you ******z....... suck my *** hole you mother ****ing whap spick pricks.... you jew bastards all should die in nazi hell..... go hang yourselves....

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-28-2008, 02:56 PM
f%ck all of you ******z....... suck my *** hole you mother ****ing whap spick pricks.... you jew bastards all should die in nazi hell..... go hang yourselves....

:laugh:

pad1
07-28-2008, 02:56 PM
O.O Where did that come from? :laugh::laugh:

davg31
07-28-2008, 03:14 PM
He has great numbers because 1) He is a fantastic player 2)He is healthy 3) The supporting cast is fantastic and 4) The ballpark they play in is very generous to hitters.

But you have to think that the play of Hamilton has inspired others i.e. Milton Bradley

pad1
07-28-2008, 03:25 PM
I guess, but Milton gained back his allstar status starting last year with San Diego and he has continued it to Texas.

G2BOAT
07-28-2008, 07:02 PM
Of course it is. If he was on a team without men on base in front of him, his RBI totals would be much lower. And that wouldn't matter, because RBI's don't matter.

Also, he's not clutch. No one is. He's a guy who's good at hitting a baseball. Sometimes he hits the baseball when there are runners on. Sometimes he hits the baseball when the bases are empty. None of this changes the fact that he's good at hitting a baseball.

RBI's don't matter? :laugh: Yea all RBI's are is just scoring runs helping your team win, yea RBI's don't matter. :rolleyes: :laugh:

SportsFan1988
07-28-2008, 07:09 PM
yea and if you put coco crisp there, he dosent have near 90 rbi's

Never said he would.

pad1
07-28-2008, 07:31 PM
Coco Crisp isn't even remotely able to get 90 RBIS.

pad1
07-28-2008, 08:40 PM
AND... RBI's are the biggest part of the GAME. :bla:

Seamhead
07-28-2008, 09:02 PM
The fact that we're discussing whether or not his teammates affect his RBI total, which they do, speaks of the validity of the statistic.

pad1
07-28-2008, 09:19 PM
yep