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JordansBulls
07-27-2008, 10:31 AM
Voting for #9 has concluded and PSD's Official #9 Player of all time is....


Shaquille O'neal

http://www.nba.com/lakers/0001images/shaq_slam_010904.jpg


25.2 PPG | 11.5 RPG | 2.7 AST | 2.4 BPG | .581 FG | 27.14 PER


Achievements:

11 time All-Star
4 NBA Championships
1 Time MVP
3 Time Finals MVP
8 Time All-NBA First Teamer
2 Time Scoring Champ
Rookie of the Year
Led in PER 5x
2nd all time in Career PER
3rd all time in playoff scoring



Shaquille O'Neal = 45 votes
Kobe Bryant = 18 votes
Tim Duncan = 13 votes
Jerry West = 4 votes
Julius Erving = 4 votes
Karl Malone = 3 votes
Moses Malone = 2 votes
John Havlicek = 2 vote
George Mikan = 1 vote
Other = 1 vote



The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242529)
2. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243543)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244377)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245662)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246661)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247634)
7. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248716)
8. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249523)
9. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250480)


Voting will now begin for the Tenth greatest player of all time....

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-27-2008, 12:09 PM
My mind is telling me Duncan, my heart is telling me Kobe. Momma always said, go with your heart.

Joshtd1
07-27-2008, 12:42 PM
Duncan

PhillyLuver
07-27-2008, 01:21 PM
Td.

SC1211
07-27-2008, 01:31 PM
For the love of God, if Kobe goes before Jerry West, TD, or even Moses Malone it will be a travesty.

BlondeBomber41
07-27-2008, 01:43 PM
Tim Duncan has only acoomplished everything that a NBA player strives to accomplish... multiple times. He has anchored a championship contending team every season of his career, won multiple MVPS, 4 NBA Championships... he is the perfect franchise player in every way.

If it was anybody other than Tim Duncan in San Antonio then we would constantly hear the "Duncan is gonna leave San Antonio to play for a big market team like New York or Chicago" all the time but Duncan is so humble its never even a thought. He never complains or has a bad word to say about anyone. He just goes out and performs every night at a MVP level.

If Tim Duncan doesnt win this one, something is seriously wrong with the voting. Especially if Kobe is the one who beats him.

LakerFan4L1fe24
07-27-2008, 01:44 PM
As much as I want to vote for Kobe, I just had to go with the Big Fundamental

innovator
07-27-2008, 01:49 PM
KOBE BRYANT

25.0 PPG l 5.3 RPG l 4.6 APG l 1.5 SPG

10 Time All-Star(all starting)
3 NBA Championships
1 Time MVP
2 Time All Star Game MVP
2 Time Scoring Champ
6 Time All-NBA First Teamer
2 Time All-NBA Second Teamer
2 Time All-NBA Third Teamer
6 Time All-NBA Defensive First Teamer
2 Time All-NBA Defensive Second Teamer

Youngest Player to
-Score 10,000-16,000 career points
-to be named NBA's All Defensive Team
- to start an all-star game
- to earn all rookie honors

1997 Slam Dunk Champion

Scored 81 points vs. Raptors
Scored 62 points in 3 quarters vs. Mavericks(outscored mavs after 3rd quarter)
Scored 50+ points in 4 straight games
Averaged 35.4 ppg in the 05-06 season
Made NBA Record of most 3 pointers in 1 game with 12
Averaged 40+ ppg in 1 month in the 05-06 season
Have scored 60+ points 4 times

----------------------
If Tim Duncan also played with primed Shaq he would not have won a finals MVP too.

BlondeBomber41
07-27-2008, 02:02 PM
KOBE BRYANT

25.0 PPG l 5.3 RPG l 4.6 APG l 1.5 SPG

10 Time All-Star(all starting)
3 NBA Championships
1 Time MVP
2 Time All Star Game MVP
2 Time Scoring Champ
6 Time All-NBA First Teamer
2 Time All-NBA Second Teamer
2 Time All-NBA Third Teamer
6 Time All-NBA Defensive First Teamer
2 Time All-NBA Defensive Second Teamer

Youngest Player to
-Score 10,000-16,000 career points
-to be named NBA's All Defensive Team
- to start an all-star game
- to earn all rookie honors

1997 Slam Dunk Champion

Scored 81 points vs. Raptors
Scored 62 points in 3 quarters vs. Mavericks(outscored mavs after 3rd quarter)
Scored 50+ points in 4 straight games
Averaged 35.4 ppg in the 05-06 season
Made NBA Record of most 3 pointers in 1 game with 12
Averaged 40+ ppg in 1 month in the 05-06 season
Have scored 60+ points 4 times

----------------------
If Tim Duncan also played with primed Shaq he would not have won a finals MVP too.

You do realize Tim Duncans accomplishments dwarf those right? You arent proving anything, other than the fact Kobe is a better scorer.

dawgsfan_45
07-27-2008, 02:19 PM
Timmy!!!!!!!!

lakerboy
07-27-2008, 02:24 PM
TD should have been there instead of Hakeem.

marvILLous
07-27-2008, 02:33 PM
tim duncan

JordansBulls
07-27-2008, 02:47 PM
If Tim Duncan also played with primed Shaq he would not have won a finals MVP too.




What does that mean?

When discussing the greatest players you can't use if in statements. You have to base things on what actually happened.

It would be like me saying that had I invested in Yahoo for the stockmarket I would be a billionaire.

It doesn't work like that.

And while Kobe's resume is impressive in itself, among current players his total points if based on this criteria is:

This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm


This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) for each category the player leads

Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 85 total points
2nd Place: Tim Duncan, 73 total points
3rd Place: Kobe Bryant, 54 total points

lakerman81
07-27-2008, 02:58 PM
Kb24!

*Superman*
07-27-2008, 03:09 PM
Timothy(isn't that his first full name,lol) Duncan.

Joshtd1
07-27-2008, 03:12 PM
If Tim Duncan also played with primed Shaq he would not have won a finals MVP too.

A prime Duncan with a prime Shaq..wonder how that would have worked.

LAKERMANIA
07-27-2008, 03:21 PM
A prime Duncan with a prime Shaq..wonder how that would have worked.

shaq winning 3 straight MVPs

JordansBulls
07-27-2008, 03:24 PM
shaq winning 3 straight MVPs

Duncan won 3 straight as well.
:D

LAKERMANIA
07-27-2008, 03:25 PM
Duncan won 3 straight as well.
:D

No i meant if Duncan and Shaq were on the same team, Shaq would've still won 3 straight

JordansBulls
07-27-2008, 03:26 PM
No i meant if Duncan and Shaq were on the same team, Shaq would've still won 3 straight

Hard to say because no one in the east would have been able to defend Duncan either.

lakers4sho
07-27-2008, 04:40 PM
My vote goes to Timmy D, because he is arguably the best PF of all time. The only guy close (and I mean real close) is Karl Malone, but T.D.'s accomplishments is what separates him.

phlp_bj
07-27-2008, 05:00 PM
so its between kobe and duncan

Camden Guru
07-27-2008, 05:04 PM
i dont think duncan should be 10 nor do i think kobe.

David Robinson should get some love
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Robinson_(basketball)

NBA Champion (1999, 2003)
NBA MVP (1995)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1992)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1990)
All-NBA First Team (1991, '92, '95, '96)
All-NBA Second Team (1994, '98)
All-NBA Third Team (1990, '93, 2000, '01)
All-Defensive First Team (1991, '92, '95, '96)
All-Defensive Second Team (1990, '93, '94, '98)
10-time NBA All-Star
Only player in NBA history to win the Rebounding, Blocked Shots, and Scoring Titles and Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year and MVP
One of only four players to have recorded a quadruple-double
NBA Sportsmanship Award (2001)
Third player in NBA history to rank among the league's top 10 in five categories (7th in scoring (23.2 ppg), 4th in rebounding (12.2 rpg), 1st in blocks (4.49 per game), 5th in steals (2.32 per game) and 7th in field-goal percentage (.551))
First player in NBA history to rank among the top five in rebounding, blocks and steals (per game) in a single season[6]
Fourth player ever to score 70+ in an NBA game
3-time Olympian (1988, '92, '96)
One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996)
Led NBA in Scoring (199394 season) - 29.8 ppg
Led NBA in Rebounding (199091 season) - 13.0 rpg
Led NBA in Blocked Shots (199192 season) - 4.49 bpg
Holds record for most IBM Awards (1990, '91, '94, '95, '96)
His 10,497 rebounds and 2,954 blocked shots are the most by any player wearing a San Antonio Spurs jersey, and his 20,790 points are second most behind only George Gervin's 23,602. (Had only Gervin's NBA numbers been taken into account, Robinson would be #1 in this category; Gervin scored 4,219 of his points while the franchise was in the American Basketball Association.)
Gold Medal in 1986 FIBA World Championship.[12]
Member of Dream Team #1 during Olympic Games at Barcelona.


i think these accomplishments dwarfs Duncans.

Camden Guru
07-27-2008, 05:12 PM
i hate that "greatest player ever" title. its hard to choose becasue most of us have not seen what Moses Malone has done and he was also one hell of a player and a pioneer. He was the one who helped the likes pf Garnett, Kobe, Dwight and LeBron make the jump from High School to the pros, Julius Erving was the orignal human highlight reel and made the NBA relevant to average fans, Jerry West also is a great player. He was such a good shooter that the Russian national team would watch film of him shooting so they could develop his jump shot. I am also suprised how George Mikan is not getting any love either. The nba had to widen the lane and also implement the shot clock to make the game harder for Mikan.

Manny Paplfavre
07-27-2008, 05:30 PM
The next list should have Barkley, Stockton, I. Thomas, and D. Wilkins.

Joshtd1
07-27-2008, 05:42 PM
shaq winning 3 straight MVPs

I didnt mean in terms of finals MVP's, I just meant in terms of winning all together. Would have a been able to 3peat..or would they have won more..or would they have won less.

BlondeBomber41
07-27-2008, 05:46 PM
i dont think duncan should be 10 nor do i think kobe.

David Robinson should get some love
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Robinson_(basketball)

NBA Champion (1999, 2003) - Duncan has 4 of these, and is the reason why David Robinson didnt retire titleless...

NBA MVP (1995) Duncan has 3 of them. Difference is Duncan has 3 Finals MVP's also.

NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1992) Never won the award but is always towards the top of the voting
NBA Rookie of the Year (1990) Tim Duncan won this also.

All-NBA First Team (1991, '92, '95, '96) Tim Duncan has made the All NBA First Team NINE times, and the Second Team twice. So his ALL NBA Teams are much more impressive than Robinsons.
All-NBA Second Team (1994, '98)
All-NBA Third Team (1990, '93, 2000, '01)

All-Defensive First Team (1991, '92, '95, '96) Tim Duncan has made the First Team All Defense 8 times, second team 3 times. Much better than Robinson.
All-Defensive Second Team (1990, '93, '94, '98)

10-time NBA All-Star - Duncan at the age of 32 already has 10 All Star game appearances, and will easily get at least 5 more.

Only player in NBA history to win the Rebounding, Blocked Shots, and Scoring Titles and Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year and MVP - Only thing Duncan hasnt won is a scoring title, or he would of done this all also.

One of only four players to have recorded a quadruple-double - Another individual game accomplishment. Doesnt prove anything.

NBA Sportsmanship Award (2001) - What does this prove? Its hard to even argue Robinson is a nicer guy than Duncan...

Third player in NBA history to rank among the league's top 10 in five categories (7th in scoring (23.2 ppg), 4th in rebounding (12.2 rpg), 1st in blocks (4.49 per game), 5th in steals (2.32 per game) and 7th in field-goal percentage (.551))
First player in NBA history to rank among the top five in rebounding, blocks and steals (per game) in a single season[6] - Im pretty sure Duncan has finished in the top 10 of 5 categories in his career, he pretty much does everything.

Fourth player ever to score 70+ in an NBA game - Kobe did it also, I guess thats a stat we can use to say he is better than Tim Duncan? Nope..

3-time Olympian (1988, '92, '96) - Just because Duncan chooses to not play Olympic basketball doesnt make Robinson somehow better...

One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996) - Duncan will be on the next list, and will get more votes than Robinson.

Led NBA in Scoring (1993–94 season) - 29.8 ppg - He is a slightly better scorer than Duncan, just slightly though.
Led NBA in Rebounding (1990–91 season) - 13.0 rpg - Duncan has a career average of 11.8 Rebounds a game, Robinson just above 10.

Led NBA in Blocked Shots (1991–92 season) - 4.49 bpg - One of the few things Robinson has over Duncan, he was a slightly better shot blocker.

Holds record for most IBM Awards (1990, '91, '94, '95, '96) - What the hell is the IBM award?

His 10,497 rebounds and 2,954 blocked shots are the most by any player wearing a San Antonio Spurs jersey, and his 20,790 points are second most behind only George Gervin's 23,602. (Had only Gervin's NBA numbers been taken into account, Robinson would be #1 in this category; Gervin scored 4,219 of his points while the franchise was in the American Basketball Association.) - Tim Duncan will have all those numbers beat by the time he retires, so this means nothing.

Gold Medal in 1986 FIBA World Championship.[12]
Member of Dream Team #1 during Olympic Games at Barcelona. - Robinson played with MJ on the Dream Team before International Ball was worth a damn, thats more good luck than any proof he is better than Duncan.

i think these accomplishments dwarfs Duncans.

Actually its very easy to see how Duncans accomplishments already dwarf Robinsons, and he is only 32 years of age!


So yeah... Duncan is clearly ahead of David Robinson.

Camden Guru
07-27-2008, 06:04 PM
So yeah... Duncan is clearly ahead of David Robinson.

Duncan won 2 MVPs and 3 Final MVPs not 3 MVPs, he finished 2nd behind KG in '04. you cannot base a player's stats on what he COULD achieve. Im sure that if healthy LeBron could pass Kareem's scoring record but LeBron has not done this yet so it does not count. A quadruple double is not an easy stat to acclompish either and should not be taken lightly. It takes serious skill to achieve a quadruple double and it says a lot about a player much like wilts 100 pts in a game said a lot about wilts dominace in that era. i dont care if duncan chose not to be in the olympics but winning a gold metal means more than a NBA title. Robinson has a bronze and 2 gold metals while duncan has 1 bronze metal.

BlondeBomber41
07-27-2008, 06:17 PM
Duncan won 2 MVPs and 3 Final MVPs not 3 MVPs, he finished 2nd behind KG in '04. you cannot base a player's stats on what he COULD achieve. Im sure that if healthy LeBron could pass Kareem's scoring record but LeBron has not done this yet so it does not count. A quadruple double is not an easy stat to acclompish either and should not be taken lightly. It takes serious skill to achieve a quadruple double and it says a lot about a player much like wilts 100 pts in a game said a lot about wilts dominace in that era. i dont care if duncan chose not to be in the olympics but winning a gold metal means more than a NBA title. Robinson has a bronze and 2 gold metals while duncan has 1 bronze metal.

Winning a gold medal does not mean more than a NBA Title, especially back then when they basically handed the gold medal to America before ever playing a game.

Duncan does only have a bronze medal, but that was with teammates like Shawn Marion, Michael Finley, Ben Wallace and Nick Collison.

Much different than having Karl Malone, John Stockton, Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Scottie Pippen and Patrick Ewing.

Winning NBA Titles as your teams franchise player is a much more meaningful accomplishment, if you dont see how you are nuts my friend.

Duncan has already surpassed 80% of the stats you threw out there for Robinson, and in a couple years he will surpass the rest.

LAKERMANIA
07-27-2008, 08:15 PM
I didnt mean in terms of finals MVP's, I just meant in terms of winning all together. Would have a been able to 3peat..or would they have won more..or would they have won less.

depends on the lineup i guess.. But my guess was a 3peat

If the Lakers had TD and Shaq starting the 1999-2000 season, my guess is they wouldn't have traded Eddie Jones since he would've been their only SG so:

PG-Ron Harper
SG-Eddie Jones
SF-Rick Fox
PF-TD
C- Shaq

I think this team is 3peat worthy

I picked the LAKERS for the lineup not the Spurs :)

GregOden#1
07-27-2008, 08:35 PM
There's no way Shaq and Duncan win 3 straight, that's ridiculous. Both players are at their best in the low post, and its been proven time and time again that putting two lost post players next to eachother simply doesn't work. HOFers like Chamberlain and Thurmond, Dominique and Moses and Kevin Willis, etc. They never worked because its too crowded in the paint.

Pretty much everybody but the biggest Laker homers agree that Duncan is still farther ahead than Kobe, but dont go opening your mouth if you dont know what you're talking about.

astrosmaniac
07-27-2008, 08:40 PM
it pains me to say a Spur was that great, since i live in houston, but the fact that tim duncan is such a nice guy makes it not so painful

Ramon Nivar
07-27-2008, 08:42 PM
Tim Duncan no doubt. After this it starts to get interesting.

JIDsanity
07-27-2008, 08:53 PM
Tim

sanfranfan1210
07-27-2008, 10:45 PM
I voted for Duncan

innovator
07-27-2008, 10:51 PM
tsk tsk tsk.... after ther careers are done(kobe in 10 years,duncan in 6 years) kobe will be the 4th best of all time behind mj,magic,wilt and duncan will be in the top 15

Aapox
07-27-2008, 11:01 PM
Tim Duncan for SURE, even if Kobe wins voting.

Also, where's Jerry West on the list?

Ramon Nivar
07-27-2008, 11:03 PM
Tim Duncan for SURE, even if Kobe wins voting.

Also, where's Jerry West on the list?

He's #3 on the poll....

BlondeBomber41
07-27-2008, 11:44 PM
tsk tsk tsk.... after ther careers are done(kobe in 10 years,duncan in 6 years) kobe will be the 4th best of all time behind mj,magic,wilt and duncan will be in the top 15

Completely incorrect on both accounts, you are nuts my friend.

BillyHoyle35
07-28-2008, 01:01 AM
TD, not many players come into the league and dominate from the word go,
he has achieved it all and is ever the professional. He also lifts come playoff time.

LAKERMANIA
07-28-2008, 03:24 AM
There's no way Shaq and Duncan win 3 straight, that's ridiculous. Both players are at their best in the low post, and its been proven time and time again that putting two lost post players next to eachother simply doesn't work. HOFers like Chamberlain and Thurmond, Dominique and Moses and Kevin Willis, etc. They never worked because its too crowded in the paint.

Pretty much everybody but the biggest Laker homers agree that Duncan is still farther ahead than Kobe, but dont go opening your mouth if you dont know what you're talking about.

Why so serious?

michaellui11
07-28-2008, 03:32 AM
where is pistol pete?

stawka
07-28-2008, 03:57 AM
The Big Fundamental. You hate him coz you don't have him - that's my reason for not liking Duncan. Other than that reason, he's an unbelievable player and a great leader.

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 01:10 PM
What does that mean?

This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm


This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads


Thats all Subjective though...The points attributed to each stat can be slanted to give certain players an advantage over another..Just like with your beloved PER.

Just like the argument I had with Chronz..Kobe in head to head playoff series against Duncan has been the best player on the floor in 4 out of 6 match ups..Better than Shaq (for 5 series) and better than Duncan..in the 4 Lakers victories

Overall Spurs vs. Lakers Playoff averages:

6 series for Kobe and Duncan 5 series for Shaq:

Kobe: 30.6 ppg 5.4 rpg and 6.4 apg 2.3 spg on 48% fg

Shaq: 26.7 ppg 12.3 rpg and 2.1 bpg 45%ft (Only for SHaq): 52%fg

Duncan: 22.3 ppg 11.5 rbg 1.9 bpg on 50.3 %fg


You can make an argument for either player. So everyone should be civil here...and stop acting like Kobe is Smush Parker or something

GregOden#1
07-28-2008, 04:38 PM
You can make an argument for either player. So everyone should be civil here...and stop acting like Kobe is Smush Parker or something

Nobody is acting like Kobe is a scrub, its YOU and all the Kobe fans who have to stop underrating everybody else.

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 05:02 PM
Nobody is acting like Kobe is a scrub, its YOU and all the Kobe fans who have to stop underrating everybody else.

Who did I underrate?

My vote went to Kobe. But I can respect anyone voting for Duncan..He has accomplished more.

Alot of people are acting like Kobe is a scrub..Just look at How many posts say: "if you vote for Kobe your crazy..and "if you vote for Kobe you're a homer" there are..its ridiculous Like he doesn't even belong in the same sentence with Duncan...

Thats notion is absurd... a reasonable argument can be made for either player

dre1990
07-28-2008, 05:29 PM
Dr.J and kb24 should have been picked sooner but i voted fo Dr.j

OaklandsFinest
07-28-2008, 05:44 PM
The Duncan Kobe discussion is mute. Duncan is the better player. But The Duncan Robinson discussion I think needs to be looked at closer. Sure Duncan might have put up some very good numbers, but how much of that can you contribute to playing beside Robinson. Duncan had little to no pressure early in his career with everyone's focus on Robinson. Not to mention Duncan has play the majority of his career at the PF spot being able to abuse smaller PFs. Robinson played in the era of the Center. If Duncan routinely had to battle Olajawon, Ewing, Shaq, Mutombo, and Alonzo his numbers would be dwarfed by Robinson. The fact is Robinson also had to dedicate 2 years of his young career to the Navy, and then come to a team that had no identity. Duncan was lucky enough to play beside one of the best big men in NBA history. Not that Duncan's feats in the post Robinson era should be ignored, he owes a huge portion of his success to The Admiral.

OaklandsFinest
07-28-2008, 05:54 PM
As for Kobe he should not be a top 20 player, yet. He's accomplished many things, and is an amazing player. However, his 3 titles came along side THE GREATEST big man ever. Every time since Shaq's departure hat Kobe has made the playoffs his team has found a new way to lose in horendous fashion. He quits when he feels the game is slipping. GREAT players like MJ, Dr. J, Dominique, Jerry West they would strap the team to their back and atleast make an effort to shoot their team back into it. For example in Game 6 in this years NBA Finals, Kobe came out on fire. Scored 13 points in the first quarter like it was nothing. Then as Boston made their push, Kobe had the opportunity to do his best Jordan impression. Instead of seizing the moment like great players do, he deferred to his teammates and got routed. Not so disturbing had this not happened in other occasions for Kobe. He's a crybaby who if things do not go his way pouts and stops playing. Hardly a top 20 player. A top 5 talent, with no heart, no balls, and no true passion to seize the moment. I think he's still traumatized from when he blew the series for Malone, Payton, and Shaq against Detroit, the only time he actually tried to carry his team in the clutch, and it wasn't the right time.

BlondeBomber41
07-28-2008, 05:56 PM
Who did I underrate?

My vote went to Kobe. But I can respect anyone voting for Duncan..He has accomplished more.

Alot of people are acting like Kobe is a scrub..Just look at How many posts say: "if you vote for Kobe your crazy..and "if you vote for Kobe you're a homer" there are..its ridiculous Like he doesn't even belong in the same sentence with Duncan...

Thats notion is absurd... a reasonable argument can be made for either player


What is the reasonable arguement for Kobe? That he scores more points? Thats really the only thing Kobe has ever done better than Tim Duncan.

There is really no reasonable arguement that could suggest Kobe Bryant is better or more valuable than Tim Duncan.

AgentViet
07-28-2008, 06:18 PM
Duncan, he dominated this recent era.

BigEric
07-28-2008, 06:28 PM
Looks like Kobe's winning #11.

GregOden#1
07-28-2008, 06:40 PM
Who did I underrate?

My vote went to Kobe. But I can respect anyone voting for Duncan..He has accomplished more.

Alot of people are acting like Kobe is a scrub..Just look at How many posts say: "if you vote for Kobe your crazy..and "if you vote for Kobe you're a homer" there are..its ridiculous Like he doesn't even belong in the same sentence with Duncan...

Thats notion is absurd... a reasonable argument can be made for either player

You're underrating Duncan, Shaq, other guys like Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Havlicek etc, not to mention the most underrated guy here in Jerry West. Julius Erving carried an entire league on his back, won several MVPs, was a ridiculously underrated defender and one of the best leaders the NBA has ever seen. Elgin Baylor, for all his faults, is still the third best offensive perimeter player of all-time, behind only Magic and Oscar Robertson. Kobe might end up with these players at the end of his career, but he's got alot more to accomplish before he can truly enter into the conversation. You may say I'm underrating Kobe, but I'm not. I give a tremendous amount of respect to him, but he's a victim of being overrated because he's "now". Back in 87 when Larry Bird won his 3 championship, everyone in their mother knew he was the GOAT, by 1991 it had gone to Magic. In 1990, Michael Jordan vs. Dominique Wilkins was still a very avid comparison that could go either way to the average fan. Before 1994 everybody KNEW DROB was a better player than Hakeem, all it took was one series to change everybodies mind.

The same thing happens today, just look at my signature, I put that up after the Finals, when everybody started saying the Celtics were favored and the Lakers were lucky to have held on for that long, which is ridiculous because the Lakers were heavy favorites. It takes a long long time before revisionist history and media hype die down, and its only then can we truly judge a players worth. I dont think I'm underrating Kobe, but I do think you are underrating the past greats like all the others voting for Kobe.

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 06:53 PM
What is the reasonable arguement for Kobe? .

And I repeat:

Just like the argument I had with Chronz..Kobe in head to head playoff series against Duncan has been the best player on the floor in 4 out of 6 match ups..Better than Shaq (for 5 series) and better than Duncan..in the 4 Lakers victories


Overall Spurs vs. Lakers Playoff averages:

6 series for Kobe and Duncan 5 series for Shaq:

Kobe: 30.6 ppg 5.4 rpg and 6.4 apg 2.3 spg on 48% fg

Shaq: 26.7 ppg 12.3 rpg and 2.1 bpg 45%ft (Only for SHaq): 52%fg

Duncan: 22.3 ppg 11.5 rbg 1.9 bpg on 50.3 %fg


Wins: Kobe 4: Duncan: 2

You can make an argument for either player. So everyone should be civil here...and stop acting like Kobe is Smush Parker or something...

BlondeBomber41
07-28-2008, 06:56 PM
Exactly, thats all you got is stats in head to head games. Stats dont tell the whole story.

Just the fact that Duncan playing with a worse supporting cast against Kobe Bryand AND Shaquille O'Neal and putting his team in a position to win all those series is evidence he is a better player. Yeah he didnt score as much as Kobe, but his effect on the games was clearly more than Kobes.

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 06:58 PM
You're underrating Duncan, Shaq, other guys like Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Havlicek etc, not to mention the most underrated guy here in Jerry West.

The same thing happens today, just look at my signature, I put that up after the Finals, when everybody started saying the Celtics were favored and the Lakers were lucky to have held on for that long, which is ridiculous because the Lakers were heavy favorites. It takes a long long time before revisionist history and media hype die down, and its only then can we truly judge a players worth. I dont think I'm underrating Kobe, but I do think you are underrating the past greats like all the others voting for Kobe.

No I'm not I voted Shaq ahead of Kobe. The rest are all great players but Kobe is better IMO..Its just an opinion that can be reasonably argued with valid stats to support that argument.. KOBE AT 29 ALREADY HAS THE STATS AND ACCOLADES TO BE MENTIONED AMONG THE GAMES BEST.

As a Laker fan I felt going into the Finals we would have lost to either the Celtics or the Pistons due to the lack of size and toughness on our front line..W/ Bynum out

Yes many of the ESPN experts picked the Lakers but as usual they were wrong

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:03 PM
tsk tsk tsk.... after ther careers are done(kobe in 10 years,duncan in 6 years) kobe will be the 4th best of all time behind mj,magic,wilt and duncan will be in the top 15

so, Kobe will play until he is 38, 20 years of bball?
Duncan will go down as the better player. Kobe walked into Shaq in his prime. Lets see what he can do in the next few years, before his window closes. He showed this year he isn't the leader that is capable of winning it all. shoot, those 3 mean nothing to me, Shaq could have won those with Finley in his prime, or Reggie Miller. I would take KG at 28 ahead of Kobe

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 07:08 PM
Exactly, thats all you got is stats in head to head games. Stats dont tell the whole story.

Just the fact that Duncan playing with a worse supporting cast against Kobe Bryand AND Shaquille O'Neal and putting his team in a position to win all those series is evidence he is a better player. Yeah he didnt score as much as Kobe, but his effect on the games was clearly more than Kobes.

Kobe AVERAGED the 2nd most points ever (behind Jordan) in the 4th QTR in both the series in 2001, and 2002..

But the most important stat is Wins and Kobe as the best player on the floor leads 4 to 2

Peoples argument against Kobe is always to diminish his impact since he played along Shaq..but those same people fail to realize or conveniently forget the times (mostly in the western conference playoffs) when KOBE CARRIED SHaq in the Lakers toughest series which back then were against the Spurs, Kings and Blazers..Kobe was the one who bailed us out and carried the team more times than not..Then Shaq would dominate the lesser East Coast teams in the Finals

I think most non- Laker fans only tuned into the finals which is why you always hear the absurd notion that Kobe road Shaq to his 3 rings or Shaq carried Kobe etc. In reality Kobe was the more dominant force in the majority of our playoff series up until the Finals..Where credit to Shaq he was just unstoppable.

But if it weren't for Kobe playing nearly flawless ball the Lakers wouldn't have even made so many trips to the Finals

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 07:09 PM
so, Kobe will play until he is 38, 20 years of bball?
Duncan will go down as the better player. Kobe walked into Shaq in his prime. Lets see what he can do in the next few years, before his window closes. He showed this year he isn't the leader that is capable of winning it all. shoot, those 3 mean nothing to me, Shaq could have won those with Finley in his prime, or Reggie Miller. I would take KG at 28 ahead of Kobe

hahaha on cue....See what I mean??

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:13 PM
What is the reasonable arguement for Kobe? That he scores more points? Thats really the only thing Kobe has ever done better than Tim Duncan.

There is really no reasonable arguement that could suggest Kobe Bryant is better or more valuable than Tim Duncan.

Carmelo Anthony scores more points. Is he better than Duncan? Kobe is a great talent, no doubt. But he has yet to prove that withouth Shaq in his PRIME, he can do anything except demand trades and call his teammates out in public. I hate the Spurs, but Duncan has proved he is the leader, and is a total pro inside and outside of the locker room. Sorry, but Kobe will have to prove it to the world he belongs on the list of the top 20 players of all time. I voted for Jerry West here. And I will vote for Baylor next. Then Duncan. Kobe isn't even in the discussion.

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:15 PM
hahaha on cue....See what I mean??

I'm not going to waste time arguing about that. The reason Kobe looked so good is because when the ball was dumped into Shaq, the other team crapped their pants, and scrambled to get to Shaq. This leaves someone like Kobe free to roam. My point is, any of the top 5 shooting guards in the league would have done the same thing. You saw what Kobe was all about this year.

GregOden#1
07-28-2008, 07:19 PM
No I'm not I voted Shaq ahead of Kobe. The rest are all great players but Kobe is better IMO..Its just an opinion that can be reasonably argued with valid stats to support that argument.. KOBE AT 29 ALREADY HAS THE STATS AND ACCOLADES TO BE MENTIONED AMONG THE GAMES BEST.

As a Laker fan I felt going into the Finals we would have lost to either the Celtics or the Pistons due to the lack of size and toughness on our front line..W/ Bynum out

Yes many of the ESPN experts picked the Lakers but as usual they were wrong

We're not talking about Kobe when he's retired, were talking about him now, and he doesn't have the stats or accolades to be put up next to Shaq, Duncan and all the others I mentioned. If you want to convince me and all the other doubters out there, put up a clear and concise argument showing why Kobe really deserves to be up there with all the other greats. Dont show me random stats and accolades, that would just show Kobe is a great player, and I know that, show me why he belongs with the others mentioned earlier.

JordansBulls
07-28-2008, 07:19 PM
The Finals is what pushes Duncan ahead of Kobe. Duncan has 2 finals rated in the top 15 while Kobe doesn't have 1 finals in the top 50.

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 07:22 PM
I'm not going to waste time arguing about that. The reason Kobe looked so good is because when the ball was dumped into Shaq, the other team crapped their pants, and scrambled to get to Shaq. This leaves someone like Kobe free to roam. My point is, any of the top 5 shooting guards in the league would have done the same thing. You saw what Kobe was all about this year.

Thats just Not true..

The Spurs, with Duncan and Robinson

The Blazers with Sabonis, and Rasheed

and The Kings with Vlade Divac (flopping i might add)

These teams all played Shaq straight up and did a really good Job on him..

Which is why Kobe took over in these match ups, which during the 3 peat era were essentially the NBA finals.

Phil moved Kobe from his facilitator role in the triangle to the wing which is where he plays now to attack the defense and free up shots for Fox..Fish Rice..Horry etc. The teams out west predominantly single covered Shaq...The famous Lob that Kobe threw to Shaq in the crazy comeback against the Blazers is indicative of how the series were played out west. It was Kobe setting up Shaq with his penetration not the other way around.

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:26 PM
Thats just Not true..

The Spurs, with Duncan and Robinson

The Blazers with Sabonis, and Rasheed

and The Kings with Vlade Divac (flopping i might add)

These teams all played Shaq straight up and did a really good Job on him..

Which is why Kobe took over in these match ups, which during the 3 peat era were essentially the NBA finals.

Phil moved Kobe from his facilitator role in the triangle to the wing which is where he plays now to attack the defense and free up shots for Fox..Fish Rice..Horry etc. The teams out west predominantly single covered Shaq...


Shaq required a total team defensive concept to stop. Kobe was the beneficiary of this, as was Wade in 05'. If MJ had walked into the same scenario, he would have rings on his toes. That is my point. I don't want to debate who played better in those runs. Kobe had his games due to the fact that Shaq garnered so much attention. That is my only point. I think Kobe is a great player. But top 20 EVER?????? No

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 07:26 PM
The Finals is what pushes Duncan ahead of Kobe. Duncan has 2 finals rated in the top 15 while Kobe doesn't have 1 finals in the top 50.

Good point

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:27 PM
We're not talking about Kobe when he's retired, were talking about him now, and he doesn't have the stats or accolades to be put up next to Shaq, Duncan and all the others I mentioned. If you want to convince me and all the other doubters out there, put up a clear and concise argument showing why Kobe really deserves to be up there with all the other greats. Dont show me random stats and accolades, that would just show Kobe is a great player, and I know that, show me why he belongs with the others mentioned earlier.

Tracy McGrady has the highest active ppg in the playoffs. POINTS do not tell the whole story, so keep throwing Kobe's points around. It won't make a difference

astrosmaniac
07-28-2008, 07:29 PM
Carmelo Anthony scores more points. Is he better than Duncan? Kobe is a great talent, no doubt. But he has yet to prove that withouth Shaq in his PRIME, he can do anything except demand trades and call his teammates out in public. I hate the Spurs, but Duncan has proved he is the leader, and is a total pro inside and outside of the locker room. Sorry, but Kobe will have to prove it to the world he belongs on the list of the top 20 players of all time. I voted for Jerry West here. And I will vote for Baylor next. Then Duncan. Kobe isn't even in the discussion.

i cant tell if ur agreeing with BB41 pr arguing with him, but BB41 is saying that duncan is better

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:31 PM
Good point

that being said, Wade had the highest rated finals ever, I wouldn't put him in Kobe's category whatsoever. Kobe has routinely shown he is a great player. My only point is, he won his three rings with Shaq. He has done nothing since. Does he deserve top 20 of ALL TIME??? Not yet in my opinion. Now, if he goes out in the next year or two, and wins a ring, then yes, I think he belongs in that argument. I think Kevin Garnett has just entered the argument for top 20, but that is highly debatable.

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 07:32 PM
Shaq required a total team defensive concept to stop. Kobe was the beneficiary of this, as was Wade in 05'. If MJ had walked into the same scenario, he would have rings on his toes. That is my point. I don't want to debate who played better in those runs. Kobe had his games due to the fact that Shaq garnered so much attention. That is my only point. I think Kobe is a great player. But top 20 EVER?????? No

The teams out west and the Detroit Pistons proved otherwise. When you single cover Shaq he takes it personal and forces shots and gets many charging fouls (off flops). These teams figured out the way to slow the Lakes was to single Shaq and send traps to Kobe.

Kobe was able to dominate in spite of this against the Spurs, Blazers and Kings but Detroit had too many good defenders.and were able to shut both of them down

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:33 PM
i cant tell if ur agreeing with BB41 pr arguing with him, but BB41 is saying that duncan is better

agreeing. PPG is one of many factors. It does not tell the whole story. Duncan is a ridiculous defender. That is the reason he enters the argument for top 10 of all time. Lots of people have averaged 22-10

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:37 PM
The teams out west and the Detroit Pistons proved otherwise. When you single cover Shaq he takes it personal and forces shots and gets many charging fouls (off flops). These teams figured out the way to slow the Lakes was to single Shaq and send traps to Kobe.

Kobe was able to dominate in spite of this against the Spurs, Blazers and Kings but Detroit had too many good defenders.and were able to shut both of them down

well, agree to disagree. I personally think Kobe benefited from Shaq so much, you have to take his three rings with a grain of salt. That being said, without Kobe, Shaq would have only one ring probably. Look, I think he is a great player. But you know that Shaq was the most physically dominating force ever during those years, and the Lakers won BECAUSE of him. Give Kobe any other player in the league at that time, and the Lakers don't win in my opinion. You as a knowledgeable Lakers fan have to admit that Kobe benefited big time from other teams game plans against SHaq. Kobe was allowed to run free compared to the big man, cause 20 footers don't go in as much as dunks.

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:38 PM
The teams out west and the Detroit Pistons proved otherwise. When you single cover Shaq he takes it personal and forces shots and gets many charging fouls (off flops). These teams figured out the way to slow the Lakes was to single Shaq and send traps to Kobe.

Kobe was able to dominate in spite of this against the Spurs, Blazers and Kings but Detroit had too many good defenders.and were able to shut both of them down

In my personal opinion, in 04', if Cassell hadn't been injured, Minnesota would have knocked them off anyways. Detroit was a matchup nightmare for them.

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 07:38 PM
that being said, Wade had the highest rated finals ever, I wouldn't put him in Kobe's category whatsoever. Kobe has routinely shown he is a great player. My only point is, he won his three rings with Shaq. He has done nothing since. Does he deserve top 20 of ALL TIME??? Not yet in my opinion. Now, if he goes out in the next year or two, and wins a ring, then yes, I think he belongs in that argument. I think Kevin Garnett has just entered the argument for top 20, but that is highly debatable.

Thats a fair argument..But I still think right now he belongs in the top 20..

I wouldn't say he has done nothing since..I mean 2 scoring titles, an MVP leading perhaps the worst starting 5 in playoff history (Smush, Luke, Kwame, Lamar) to the brink of an historic upset. Finals Appearance 81, 2nd most points in Lakers single season history..etc..etc. etc..

He won his 3 rings with Shaq so do they no count? Kobe carried the team through the tough West and allowed Shaq to dominate the Finals

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 07:44 PM
In my personal opinion, in 04', if Cassell hadn't been injured, Minnesota would have knocked them off anyways. Detroit was a matchup nightmare for them.

If mayonnaise was mustard... and relish was a batman costume..would superman be allergic to cryptonite?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=anAD4Wp0DgA

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:50 PM
Thats a fair argument..But I still think right now he belongs in the top 20..

I wouldn't say he has done nothing since..I mean 2 scoring titles, an MVP leading perhaps the worst starting 5 in playoff history (Smush, Luke, Kwame, Lamar) to the brink of an historic upset. Finals Appearance 81, 2nd most points in Lakers single season history..etc..etc. etc..

He won his 3 rings with Shaq so do they no count? Kobe carried the team through the tough West and allowed Shaq to dominate the Finals

the near upset against the Suns, who are a bunch of cupcakes? Okay I will give it to you. Look, I may have worded that wrong. It's not like he has done nothing. I think LeBron is a better player, but Kobe is arguably the best player in the planet right now. His MVP was fine, I think Paul and LeBron deserved it more. His rings do count, I just take them with a grain of salt, that is all. If not for Shaq, no dice. And I think Shaq could still have won them if you gave him Miller, Iverson, Finley, Ray Allen, for example. That is all I mean with that. Kobe Bryant is a fantastic player. I just think in the grand scheme of things he is overrated. His defensive accolades are a joke, sorry. He demanded a trade last summer, and calls out his teammates in public, and completely gave in during the finals. Pierce destroyed him. I CANNOT rank him with some of the greats. I just can't.

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 07:53 PM
If mayonnaise was mustard... and relish was a batman costume..would superman be allergic to cryptonite?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=anAD4Wp0DgA

oh, I know. I am a die hard Wolves fan. Feel sorry for me, don't make fun of me. Luckily we have a decent future if McFail doesn't mess it up. As a Lakers fan, you would have no idea what I am talking about. What free agent or talent wouldn't want to live in LA??

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 07:58 PM
the near upset against the Suns, who are a bunch of cupcakes? Okay I will give it to you. Look, I may have worded that wrong. It's not like he has done nothing. I think LeBron is a better player, but Kobe is arguably the best player in the planet right now. His MVP was fine, I think Paul and LeBron deserved it more. His rings do count, I just take them with a grain of salt, that is all. If not for Shaq, no dice. And I think Shaq could still have won them if you gave him Miller, Iverson, Finley, Ray Allen, for example. That is all I mean with that. Kobe Bryant is a fantastic player. I just think in the grand scheme of things he is overrated. His defensive accolades are a joke, sorry. He demanded a trade last summer, and calls out his teammates in public, and completely gave in during the finals. Pierce destroyed him. I CANNOT rank him with some of the greats. I just can't.

Thats cool..all legit reasons..The trade thing was well needed and a year too late for my taste.. and Kobe didn't guard pierce nearly enough. Phil's fault... But Kobe (for his standards) played like trash during the Finals.. Still KOBe is a great defender..its not even debatable in NBA circles

But enough about Kobe

Props to Duncan for taking this. Well deserved.. dude has been a monster since 1st stepping into the leauge.

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 08:00 PM
Thats cool..all legit reasons..The trade thing was well needed and Kobe didn't guard pierce nearly enough. Phil's fault... But he played like trash during the Finals.. Still KOBe is a great defender..its not even debatable in NBA circles

But enough about Kobe

Props to Duncan for taking this. Well deserved.. dude has been a monster since 1st stepping into the leauge.

how scared are you of Portland soon? Ugh

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 08:02 PM
Oh Yea I know I went to school at Oregon State so all my boys are die hard Blazer fans and are giddy about their future..They should be really good starting this year..

The GEEEEE Men
07-28-2008, 08:12 PM
where is Cousy?????

GregOden#1
07-28-2008, 08:29 PM
So I'm to assume that all the Kobe fans voting for Kobe do not have a reasonable argument as to why Kobe should be voted in before most of the guys on the list? Seeying as how nobody has put up a well thought out and coherent argument comparing him to those same players like I asked.

fresh prince
07-28-2008, 08:33 PM
Why should one group have to defend their position on WHy Kobe should make the cut..His resume speaks on its own merit..

Its more obvious than arguing the negative. See my posts from the 7th player of all time thread for a little of what the argument may look like.

But realistically at this point in the list you should craft a post arguing for the players you believe deserve mention ahead of Kobe

MiamiHeat
07-28-2008, 08:43 PM
Timmy!

GregOden#1
07-28-2008, 09:03 PM
Why should one group have to defend their position on WHy Kobe should make the cut..His resume speaks on its own merit..

Its more obvious than arguing the negative. See my posts from the 7th player of all time thread for a little of what the argument may look like.

But realistically at this point in the list you should craft a post arguing for the players you believe deserve mention ahead of Kobe

Dont try to shift the burder of proof onto me. If his resume spoke on its own merit I woudn't be asking you to prove it.

THE MTL
07-28-2008, 10:20 PM
Please stop being on Kobe's dick all you Lakers fans. Gosh, if Kobe goes before Jerry West, Pistol Pete, Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone it would be a disaster.

THE MTL
07-28-2008, 10:23 PM
KOBE BRYANT

25.0 PPG l 5.3 RPG l 4.6 APG l 1.5 SPG

10 Time All-Star(all starting)
3 NBA Championships
1 Time MVP
2 Time All Star Game MVP
2 Time Scoring Champ
6 Time All-NBA First Teamer
2 Time All-NBA Second Teamer
2 Time All-NBA Third Teamer
6 Time All-NBA Defensive First Teamer
2 Time All-NBA Defensive Second Teamer

Youngest Player to
-Score 10,000-16,000 career points
-to be named NBA's All Defensive Team
- to start an all-star game
- to earn all rookie honors
1997 Slam Dunk Champion

Scored 81 points vs. Raptors
Scored 62 points in 3 quarters vs. Mavericks(outscored mavs after 3rd quarter)
Scored 50+ points in 4 straight games
Averaged 35.4 ppg in the 05-06 season
Made NBA Record of most 3 pointers in 1 game with 12
Averaged 40+ ppg in 1 month in the 05-06 season
Have scored 60+ points 4 times

----------------------
If Tim Duncan also played with primed Shaq he would not have won a finals MVP too.

Didnt Lebron James take all those honors????

Hawkeye15
07-28-2008, 10:48 PM
Didnt Lebron James take all those honors????

we are also in the age of 18 year olds playing in the NBA, so of course those records are beatable.