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CAIN=FUTURE
07-25-2008, 06:16 PM
Who's it gonna be?

My pick is obvious, the Giants.

Cain 23
Lincecum 24
Sanchez 25

brandonwarne52
07-25-2008, 06:21 PM
Guess I'll go that route, too:

Liriano
Baker
Slowey
Mulvey/Robertson/Swarzak/Guerra/Duensing/Perkins/Blackburn

Pretty damn good.

JHG722
07-25-2008, 06:21 PM
THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS THREAD. PLEASE TELL YOUR FELLOW GIANTS BUDDIES TO EXIT THE OTHER THREAD, AND POST HERE INSTEAD. Thanks!

sportwiz628
07-25-2008, 06:23 PM
:cough: homer :cough::cough:

cwilson21
07-25-2008, 06:24 PM
I'll agree with bwarne and go with the underrated Twins bunch as well. Don't forget about Shooter Hunt as well (.47 ERA, 34:6 K/BB).

CAIN=FUTURE
07-25-2008, 06:24 PM
:cough: homer :cough::cough:

Me?

How am I homer. Is it if you post one thing positive about your team your a homer?

CAIN=FUTURE
07-25-2008, 06:26 PM
THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS THREAD. PLEASE TELL YOUR FELLOW GIANTS BUDDIES TO EXIT THE OTHER THREAD, AND POST HERE INSTEAD. Thanks!

Your welcome. You and I have been around long enough to know that all threads can get away from the topic at hamd. Their just noobs, they will learn in time. :D

Ron_Mexico
07-25-2008, 06:27 PM
I think that the Giants will have a great 1-2 punch in Lincecum and Cain, but I'm not sold on Sanchez just yet.

The Rays will have a great rotation for many years. Kazmir and Sheilds will only get better, and David Price will be a stud.

I also like the Brewers rotation if they can keep it intact. CC and Sheets are already aces, and guys like Parra are emerging as solid pitchers. Gallardo will also be back next year and he has just as much potential as guys like Cain and Lincecum.

JHG722
07-25-2008, 06:28 PM
Rays:

Price 22
Kazmir 24
Shields 26
Garza 24
Jackson/Sonnanstine/McGee (22)/Davis (23)/Niemann (25)

Disgusting.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-25-2008, 06:29 PM
I think that the Giants will have a great 1-2 punch in Lincecum and Cain, but I'm not sold on Sanchez just yet.

The Rays will have a great rotation for many years. Kazmir and Sheilds will only get better, and David Price will be a stud.

I also like the Brewers rotation if they can keep it intact. CC and Sheets are already aces, and guys like Parra are emerging as solid pitchers. Gallardo will also be back next year and he has just as much potential as guys like Cain and Lincecum.

I can agree with the Rays. But I dont think Gallardo is at Lincecum or Cain's level. But I dont watch him much, so Im not gonna say he cant be like Cain or Lincecum.

Angels are another team. Also the A's.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-25-2008, 06:30 PM
Rays:

Price 22
Kazmir 24
Shields 26
Garza 24
Jackson/Sonnanstine/McGee (22)/Davis (23)/Niemann (25)

Disgusting.

I think Kaz will be better than Price.

FC_4_life
07-25-2008, 06:32 PM
The Giants and Rays are obvious choices here. The Giants have Cain, Lincecum, Sanchez, Bumgarner, Alderson, Sosa, Pucetas, and Quirarte all coming up. Then again, the Rays have Kazmir, Garza, Shields, Price, McGee, and Sonnanstine, all of whom are pretty much MLB ready...

cwilson21
07-25-2008, 06:37 PM
Other than my homer pick for the Twins, I'd give it to the Rays. They are going to be filthy for years and years. Though it's going to suck facing him, I can't wait to see what David Price does at this level. Only 8-0 right now in the minors.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-25-2008, 06:38 PM
If Kershaw pans out then the dodgers will have Billingsley, Kershaw to match Cain, Lincecum. That will be some fun watching in a couple years.

giventofly
07-25-2008, 06:40 PM
Man, these threads are just pathetic sometimes. Like, I know this is a legitimate discussion, but these are the only kinds of posts I see out of you.

Next time, do us all a favor and spare us the buried pity. Your next thread should be titled:

"Best MLB team to play in San Francisco in 2-3 years"

GHGHCP
07-25-2008, 06:42 PM
Man, these threads are just pathetic sometimes. Like, I know this is a legitimate discussion, but these are the only kinds of posts I see out of you.

Next time, do us all a favor and spare us the buried pity. Your next thread should be titled:

"Best MLB team to play in San Francisco in 2-3 years"

The answer would be the road team playing there that day. :D

rriders9
07-25-2008, 06:44 PM
Probably the Rays

R BU 5
07-25-2008, 07:01 PM
i would go with the rays
i dont know much about the giants other than lincecum and cain

but the mets will have johan, oliver perez, john maine, pelfrey, and maybe niese or another prospect

not saying they are the best, but they have to be top five

ugafan
07-25-2008, 07:06 PM
I give it to the Rays easy, but since this is a homer-fest.

Jurrjens
Campillo
Morton
Hanson
Teheran

All under 30

R BU 5
07-25-2008, 07:09 PM
no way with the braves

jurrjens is good thats about it

northsider
07-25-2008, 07:12 PM
Rays

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-25-2008, 07:24 PM
I can agree with the Rays. But I dont think Gallardo is at Lincecum or Cain's level. But I dont watch him much, so Im not gonna say he cant be like Cain or Lincecum.

Angels are another team. Also the A's.

Gallardo's flat out nasty. He's going to be a legit ace and the cubs dodged a bullet when he went down (no I'm not happy about it) but he's going to fill in that ace spot in milwaukee

GrkGawdofWalkz
07-25-2008, 07:34 PM
Kazmir, Sheilds, Price, Wade Davis, Garza, Jake McGee.

papipapsmanny
07-25-2008, 07:38 PM
i still like the

Beckett
Matsuzaka
Lester
Buchholz
Masterson/Bowden

rotation

hanleymvp
07-25-2008, 07:55 PM
Marlins have to be considered with their deep farm system.

JHG722
07-25-2008, 07:57 PM
Marlins have to be considered with their deep farm system.

...No

hanleymvp
07-25-2008, 08:05 PM
...No

do you know anyone in the marlins farm system?


Johnson
Volstad
Miller
Nolasco
Sanchez/vandenhurk/sinkbeil/thompson/tucker/west


marlins will.

Ron_Mexico
07-25-2008, 08:06 PM
I can agree with the Rays. But I dont think Gallardo is at Lincecum or Cain's level. But I dont watch him much, so Im not gonna say he cant be like Cain or Lincecum.

Angels are another team. Also the A's.

To be honest, I love Lincecum. But Gallardo is at least as good as Cain, if not better (if he returns to pre-injury form).

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-25-2008, 08:14 PM
Well after Mark Cuban buys the cubs and he makes it rain on CC the cubs will have

Zambrano
Harden
CC

thats a good start :p

lincecum=future
07-25-2008, 08:15 PM
The answer would be the road team playing there that day. :D

:laugh:

No doubt it is the Rays

Kazmir
Price
Garza
Shields
Mcgee/Davis/Niemann

H-MYK
07-25-2008, 08:17 PM
the Rays.

Run Gardner Run
07-25-2008, 08:45 PM
Chamberlain
Hughes
Wang
Betances

I would say the Yankees are set up for a good rotation. Not the best, but top 5

Tragedy
07-25-2008, 08:48 PM
Rays:

Price 22
Kazmir 24
Shields 26
Garza 24
Jackson/Sonnanstine/McGee (22)/Davis (23)/Niemann (25)

Disgusting.
:drool:

That's the rotation I'd pick, personally.

PhillyUD26
07-25-2008, 08:49 PM
Rays easily

PhillyUD26
07-25-2008, 08:49 PM
Letsgofish.

I was thinking the exact same thing

hanleymvp
07-25-2008, 08:51 PM
Chamberlain
Hughes
Wang
Betances

I would say the Yankees are set up for a good rotation. Not the best, but top 5

Are you kidding?

Your banking on that rotation without a 5th starter and Betances who isnt even in high A ball?

The Marlins have a much better future rotation than that.

JHG722
07-25-2008, 08:52 PM
I was thinking the exact same thing

It's one of the banned Fish fans.

hanleymvp
07-25-2008, 08:53 PM
Letsgofish.

You don't have to be letsgofish to know something about the marlins future rotation and farm system. You probably dont know anything about our farm system,

We have one of the deepest farm system in terms of pitching.

JHG722
07-25-2008, 08:54 PM
You don't have to be letsgofish to know something about the marlins future rotation and farm system. You probably dont know anything about our farm system,

We have one of the deepest farm system in terms of pitching.

Yeah, definitely a banned user...

JHG722
07-25-2008, 08:56 PM
:laugh: banned right after I posted it...

brandonwarne52
07-25-2008, 08:59 PM
Think Tragedy "CHECKED THE IP!!!????"

Love you Tragedy:love:

mjrballer13
07-25-2008, 09:13 PM
for fun, the yanks

Chamberlain
Hughes
Kennedy
Wang
Sabathia

JHG722
07-25-2008, 09:15 PM
for fun, the yanks

Chamberlain
Hughes
Kennedy
Wang
Sabathia

I wasn't aware Sabathia played for the Yankees...

giantspwn
07-25-2008, 09:34 PM
I would say Rays, Giants, Reds, A's and Angels.

mjrballer13
07-25-2008, 09:46 PM
that was a joke, i kno ppl will become very angry with that.
Wang
Kennedy
Hughes
Chamberlain
Betances

michaelb2254
07-25-2008, 10:07 PM
It's the Rays, but a team everyone is overlooking is the Angels

Saunders
Santana
Weaver

Possibly Adenhart becoming a stud.

BigDaddyKaine
07-25-2008, 10:26 PM
If Kershaw pans out then the dodgers will have Billingsley, Kershaw to match Cain, Lincecum. That will be some fun watching in a couple years.

Those will be great pitching duels

shrek
07-25-2008, 10:30 PM
Who's it gonna be?

My pick is obvious, the Giants.

Cain 23
Lincecum 24
Sanchez 25

:laugh:

The chances are that at least one of them don't stay with the giants. Come on, look at the giants team and that division. Top notch players like Lincecum wants to play for winning teams. He won't sign with the Giants unless they give him 20 to 25 million dollars per year which will mean that the giants wont be able to sign other good players and so the team will still suck.






The best rotation will be between the top spending teams aka Angels, Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, & the Cubs.

MarlinsBaseball
07-25-2008, 10:42 PM
Florida Marlins 08 stats
yrs. old rec. era
Chris Volstad 22 2-1 2.16
Josh Johnson 25 0-0 3.71 (Just came back from Tommy John)
Scott Olsen 25 6-5 4.07
Ricky Nolasco 26 10-6 3.99

Maybe the next young starting pitcher
AA 08 stats
William Glen 6-3 2.26

Jimmy3702
07-25-2008, 10:42 PM
Giants Best Rotation Obviously
Cain
Lincecum
Sanchez
Bumgarner
Alderson

jscotty8
07-25-2008, 10:46 PM
Lincecum doesn't have a choice.. he is only in his 2nd year... besides the fact that he is a west coast guy... and if you look at the young talent that SF is stocking up on... and the money they have to spend... the giants suck right now but 2010 they could be very scary...

vladdy#27
07-25-2008, 10:57 PM
Angels and Rays

Kinsm
07-25-2008, 11:12 PM
I have to go with the Rays.

Reds could throw a wrench in the argument as well.

Volquez 25
Cueto 22
Bailey 22
Thompson 22 and Maloney 24

Harang and Arroyo are under contract for the next two years, each has an option for the third year.

Depending on how these guys continue to progress, they could be formidable.

ruslan898
07-25-2008, 11:14 PM
Detroit

CAIN=FUTURE
07-25-2008, 11:33 PM
Man, these threads are just pathetic sometimes. Like, I know this is a legitimate discussion, but these are the only kinds of posts I see out of you.

Next time, do us all a favor and spare us the buried pity. Your next thread should be titled:

"Best MLB team to play in San Francisco in 2-3 years"

I started this because it started getting discussed in the best rotation thread. I decided if people want to discuss it it should have its own thread.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-25-2008, 11:34 PM
:laugh:

The chances are that at least one of them don't stay with the giants. Come on, look at the giants team and that division. Top notch players like Lincecum wants to play for winning teams. He won't sign with the Giants unless they give him 20 to 25 million dollars per year which will mean that the giants wont be able to sign other good players and so the team will still suck.






The best rotation will be between the top spending teams aka Angels, Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, & the Cubs.

The Giants are big spenders, usually. They all know whats up. They know the Giants are rebuilding. Its not like their 40 and they want to win now.

psurulesyou
07-25-2008, 11:55 PM
Your also basing this off of no injuries,they will resign with the team and they dont get traded

Brewersin08
07-25-2008, 11:56 PM
The Brewers:

1. Sabathia or Sheets
2. Gallardo
3. Parra
4. Jeffress
5. Suppan

ShinobiNYC
07-26-2008, 12:08 AM
The Brewers:

1. Sabathia or Sheets
2. Gallardo
3. Parra
4. Jeffress
5. Suppan

Suppan....in 2-3 years?

Brewersin08
07-26-2008, 12:11 AM
Suppan....in 2-3 years?

I believe he is signed through 2010 or 2011. He could be gone before then though.

sacgiants1213
07-26-2008, 12:17 AM
if zito is in our rotation in 2-3 years, the giants shouldn't even be considered for this unless he's in the pen....or gone

L-MiLLZ44
07-26-2008, 12:36 AM
if zito is in our rotation in 2-3 years, the giants shouldn't even be considered for this unless he's in the pen....or gone

u are awesome:clap:

B-West.Joba
07-26-2008, 01:02 AM
absolutely the rays

JHG722
07-26-2008, 01:11 AM
I believe he is signed through 2010 or 2011. He could be gone before then though.

Suppan doesn't exactly make your choice appealing

ugafan
07-26-2008, 01:24 AM
Well, I'd say everyone cares, because I don't expect the Yankees to go with a two man rotation of Joba and Wang...

They would survive, Joba is teh best pitcher to ever play the game of baseball.

Get on facebook dawg.

SportsFan1988
07-26-2008, 01:51 AM
I'll go with the Giants. Lincecum, Cain and Sanchez are 3 nasty studs to watch out for.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-26-2008, 02:16 AM
:laugh: Because Cain is one of the better young pitchers in the game. You've NEVER justified your dislike for him, and I'm still waiting to see why. I've asked you to, and you won't do it. So let's see it:

Go!

I think its cause hes a D-bag. He hates on the Giants every chance he gets.

Disclaimer: He is not really Brett Favre.

Brendan
07-26-2008, 02:17 AM
In two years its going to be teams like the red sox and cubs who still have Beckett and Zambrano and Harden, they wont be gone in 2 years... In 5..... The Rays

gcoll
07-26-2008, 02:24 AM
:laugh: Because Cain is one of the better young pitchers in the game. You've NEVER justified your dislike for him, and I'm still waiting to see why. I've asked you to, and you won't do it. So let's see it:

Go!

I don't think you are going to get a well articulated argument from the guy who brought you "Joba...end of story"

CAIN=FUTURE
07-26-2008, 02:39 AM
I don't think you are going to get a well articulated argument from the guy who brought you "Joba...end of story"

And he thinks hes Brett Favre. Don't tell him he's not or you might break his heart.

natepro
07-26-2008, 02:45 AM
I'll agree with bwarne and go with the underrated Twins bunch as well. Don't forget about Shooter Hunt as well (.47 ERA, 34:6 K/BB).

There is seriously a player named Shooter Hunt?

And he could potentially play on the same team as Boof Bonser?


I just may become a Twins fan.

brandonwarne52
07-26-2008, 02:46 AM
Bonser better learn how to pitch pretty damn soon, then.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-26-2008, 02:47 AM
Bonser better learn how to pitch pretty damn soon, then.

Boof. :laugh2:

natepro
07-26-2008, 02:49 AM
Seriously. Boof and Shooter. I want those guys to be my best friends.

PhillyUD26
07-26-2008, 02:50 AM
There is seriously a player named Shooter Hunt?

And he could potentially play on the same team as Boof Bonser?


I just may become a Twins fan.

I remember Shooter Hunt from the draft, I really wanted the Phils to pick him up simply because of his name. Ohwell :(

natepro
07-26-2008, 03:03 AM
Utterly off topic, I realize...

There's a guy in my MLB 2005 franchise named Flash Rivera. Minor league relief pitcher I stumbled across randomly one day.

I traded for him instantly, simply because of his name.:laugh2:

PRETTY BIRD
07-26-2008, 05:13 AM
angels

PRETTY BIRD
07-26-2008, 05:14 AM
maybe the a's both of them have always had great pitching!

bartoron
07-26-2008, 07:36 AM
maybe the a's both of them have always had great pitching!

Whatever pitching the A's have, they will trade them all away for a bunch of minimum-salary prospects.

Cabby
07-26-2008, 08:18 AM
I think the A's have a shot at having one of the better rotations. They have Cahill, Anderson, and Gonzalez coming up. Cahill is arguably one of the better pitching prospects in baseball right now. His numbers this year are unbelievable.

http://firstinning.com/players/Trevor-Cahill-a/

Buda24
07-26-2008, 08:22 AM
Wang, Joba, Hughes, Horne, Sanchez

NYY

Dashtary
07-26-2008, 09:43 AM
Whatever pitching the A's have, they will trade them all away for a bunch of minimum-salary prospects.

I totally agree with that, imagine if the A's still had a few if these guys mulder, zito, hudson, harden, haren, and blanton, even though those guys were all starting pitchers

Dashtary
07-26-2008, 09:43 AM
they would have been so dominant

bostncelts34
07-26-2008, 10:24 AM
homer pick: Red sox

Beckett
Lester
Buccholz
masterson

FC_4_life
07-26-2008, 11:25 AM
homer pick: Red sox

Beckett
Lester
Buccholz
masterson

...and Bowden and Matsuzaka!!!

L-MiLLZ44
07-26-2008, 11:47 AM
i'm gonna go with the rays

Kazmir
Price
Shields
Sonnastine
Garza

The Giants have a great front 3

Lincecum
Cain
Sanchez

but fades away with the Zito, who will be a Giant FOREVER

PunkShizzle
07-26-2008, 11:50 AM
I'm not sure who will be the best, but the Giants will definitely be the worst. Without a doubt.

Tragedy
07-26-2008, 11:51 AM
I totally agree with that, imagine if the A's still had a few if these guys mulder, zito, hudson, harden, haren, and blanton, even though those guys were all starting pitchers
Imagine if they still had these guys?

Mulder = Injured for the last two years, or whatever.
Blanton = Awful this year.
Zito = Awful in general.

I mean, the names that have passed through the A's major league system are impressive, but a lot of them are no longer having success.

GHGHCP
07-26-2008, 12:09 PM
Imagine if they still had these guys?

Mulder = Injured for the last two years, or whatever.
Blanton = Awful this year.
Zito = Awful in general.

I mean, the names that have passed through the A's major league system are impressive, but a lot of them are no longer having success.

And are a product of their ballpark. Will anyone be surprised if Blanton gets shelled in his bandbox of a ballpark? A pitcher that pitches to contact and hardly Ks anyone... he's Brad Penny only without the Ks and -10 mph. :D

Teixeira25
07-26-2008, 12:37 PM
Wang, Joba, Hughes, Horne, Sanchez

NYY

I was thinking more like

1. Wang [20 Wins Plausible]
2. Joba [20 Wins Plausible]
3. Hughes [When Healthy]
4. Alfredo Aceves [Looking Sharp, even after promotion to AAA]
5. Ian Kennedy [Pending pressure-pitching in NYY] / Alan Horne [Potentially] / Phil Coke [The kid's got heart! And almost got traded.. Heh]

JHG722
07-26-2008, 02:41 PM
homer pick: Red sox

Beckett
Lester
Buccholz
masterson

It's 'Buchholz'...

SJ5382
07-26-2008, 03:02 PM
Me?

How am I homer. Is it if you post one thing positive about your team your a homer?
If you make a new thread just to talk about your team's strength, your a homer.

cubsbears1225
07-26-2008, 03:14 PM
Zambrano
Harden
Samardzija

kyubi256
07-26-2008, 03:33 PM
I have to agree with the Tampa Bay Rays...

Kazmir
Price
Garza
Shields
Sonnastine

that is dominant

BigDaddyKaine
07-26-2008, 03:36 PM
dodgers

CC Sabathia:D:;)
Kershaw
Billingsley

bartoron
07-26-2008, 03:45 PM
dodgers

CC Sabathia:D:;)
Kershaw
Billingsley

You can't put a player into your future rotation if he isn't actually on your team. :no:

kyubi256
07-26-2008, 03:47 PM
i know right lol

i could just say Mets

Kazmir
Santana
Pelfrey
CC Sabathia
Lincecum

lol

saucy1
07-26-2008, 04:13 PM
i can tell u that oakland will have the deepest staff for years the ace could be one of three or four guys gio,cahill,anderson just check oaklands double and triple a teams and look at opposing avg and ks these guys are dominating now if we can grow a few hitters

saucy1
07-26-2008, 04:14 PM
dont ask about 3yr future if u cant envision the future

Tragedy
07-26-2008, 04:14 PM
i can tell u that oakland will have the deepest staff for years the ace could be one of three or four guys gio,cahill,anderson just check oaklands double and triple a teams and look at opposing avg and ks these guys are dominating now if we can grow a few hitters
Potential is there, and they may be good, but they won't be the "Deepest staff for years" because the A's will continue doing the Billy Beane way and trading them when they start costing some money.

Sox Appeal
07-26-2008, 05:09 PM
If the Rays can keep all of their pitchers locked up long term, there's no question they'll have the best rotation in baseball for years to come.

Kazmir, Garza, Price, Shields, and Sonnastine.

Filthy..

Joba Rules!!
07-26-2008, 05:11 PM
I have to agree with the Tampa Bay Rays...

Kazmir
Price
Garza
Shields
Sonnastine

that is dominant

Wade Davis? Jake McGee? Jeremy Hellickson? Chris Mason? ????? Sonnanstine is on his way out...he doesn't have **** on those guys.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-26-2008, 05:38 PM
I was thinking more like

1. Wang [20 Wins Plausible]
2. Joba [20 Wins Plausible]
3. Hughes [When Healthy]
4. Alfredo Aceves [Looking Sharp, even after promotion to AAA]
5. Ian Kennedy [Pending pressure-pitching in NYY] / Alan Horne [Potentially] / Phil Coke [The kid's got heart! And almost got traded.. Heh]

When will Yankee fans finally figure out that Wang is not that good

Sox Appeal
07-26-2008, 06:12 PM
When will Yankee fans finally figure out that Wang is not that good

They wont.. He's one of the 10 best pitchers in baseball. :eyebrow:

brandonwarne52
07-26-2008, 06:18 PM
Giants:
Cain-Valdez-Foppert-Williams-Aardsma

chisox..YES!
07-26-2008, 06:25 PM
Probably the rays. But i want to see what the A's rotation is gunna look like. They have a TON of good pitching prospects..

agureghian
07-26-2008, 06:32 PM
Rays, A's, Giants, Reds, Dodgers, Red Sox.

dodgerzfan44
07-26-2008, 07:00 PM
Dodgers

LHP)Kershaw: 19
RHP)Billingsley: 23
LHP)Scott Elbert: 22 (If healthy, could Kershaw 2.0; but older)
RHP)James McDonald: 23 (3.04 era in Double A)
LHP)CC Sabathia: 28 (he said LA is top choice)

3 lefties, 2 righties.

torontocubs
07-26-2008, 07:08 PM
The fact that there is a discussion about anyone else other than the Rays kind of proves the point that this discussion is pure homerism. At this point the Giants are only in contention because of ONE young stud and thats Lincecum. Cain has done nothing yet to prove that a)he is worthy of being considered pure ace material, and b)to be listed in these discussions with his name ahead of Lince. The Rays right now have two pitchers that are aces on any team. Shields is better than Cain, and Kazmir has shown more longevity(not health, but the fact that he has proven for longer than a year) to get the nod over Tim.

Add to the fact that the Rays have the number one pitching prospect in the baseball, David Price, and you have to look at the fact this team has assembled a front rotation with three guys that could easily contend for cy young year in and year out.


Another intriguing option that hasn't been mentioned or atleast I didn't read about in the few pages I glanced over was the Reds. A front two of Volquez, and Cueto (even though he has struggled, he has dynamite stuff) could be quite the one two punch. This prediction is so premature, but wouldn't shock me to see these two guys being a nasty threat in the future. That is of course if Cueto can keep the ball in the park.

giantspwn
07-26-2008, 08:13 PM
The fact that there is a discussion about anyone else other than the Rays kind of proves the point that this discussion is pure homerism. At this point the Giants are only in contention because of ONE young stud and thats Lincecum. Cain has done nothing yet to prove that a)he is worthy of being considered pure ace material, and b)to be listed in these discussions with his name ahead of Lince. The Rays right now have two pitchers that are aces on any team. Shields is better than Cain, and Kazmir has shown more longevity(not health, but the fact that he has proven for longer than a year) to get the nod over Tim.

Add to the fact that the Rays have the number one pitching prospect in the baseball, David Price, and you have to look at the fact this team has assembled a front rotation with three guys that could easily contend for cy young year in and year out.

Another intriguing option that hasn't been mentioned or atleast I didn't read about in the few pages I glanced over was the Reds. A front two of Volquez, and Cueto (even though he has struggled, he has dynamite stuff) could be quite the one two punch. This prediction is so premature, but wouldn't shock me to see these two guys being a nasty threat in the future. That is of course if Cueto can keep the ball in the park.

I agree that the Rays rotation has more potential than the Giants but your evaluation of Cain is way off. First off Shield's is 4 years older than Cain. Cain is already putting up number's similar to Shields and he hasn't reached his potential yet.

Lincecum is having a way better sophmore year than Kazmir.

And you obviously know nothing about the Giants other pitching talent in Sanchez, Bumgarner and Alderson. All of these starters project to be front end of the rotation..

torontocubs
07-26-2008, 08:32 PM
I agree that the Rays rotation has more potential than the Giants but your evaluation of Cain is way off. First off Shield's is 4 years older than Cain. Cain is already putting up number's similar to Shields and he hasn't reached his potential yet.

Lincecum is having a way better sophmore year than Kazmir.

And you obviously know nothing about the Giants other pitching talent in Sanchez, Bumgarner and Alderson. All of these starters project to be front end of the rotation..

Man I am not too sure what you know, those guys are decent young pitchers. Sanchez is not the real deal, Sanchez is very Homer Bailey like with a longer leash. Similar overpowering stuff with occasional control.

What has Cain proven in all fairness. He in my opinion is a good two starter. He is not the ace of that rotation, and by years end, I think everyone will come to accept that. Cain is too inconsistent at times to be the number one, just check out his past 10 starts, he has a tendency to get himself into some trouble and have rough outings, he is certainly not the kind of ace who will lead the league in quality starts.

I will give you the credit that he certainly has upside, and he has not reached his possible potential. But I think far too often people are shock and awed by his K total, and don't focus on other aspects of his numbers.

He is good, just not Lincecum good, which isn't a bad thing. IMO Lincecum is having a better second year than Kazmir, I won't argue that. I think it will be interesting to see where timmy finishes, he has looked really shaky his last few starts. Certainly not the lock Cy young contender he looked like about a month ago.

As for the Shields comment about age, frankly it doesn't have much to do with a pitcher. A lot of time the younger the pitcher is, such as Cain facing such a huge workload, increases his susceptibility to injury tenfold. Shields is absolutely dominant when he is on, very similar to Cain.

Price on the other hand is what sets the Rays apart from the Giants. David Price is the most highly touted college pitcher since Verlander/Prior. Don't post stupid comments about Priors health, there is no question he was dominant. As for price, this guys is unbelievable and his truly a front end rotation material. Price could easily be better than Lincecum, so add that to a rotation with Kazmir and Shields, and picture that rotation in the next two years.

giantspwn
07-26-2008, 08:38 PM
I think were on the same page. Rays definitely have the upper hand with Price coming up. Keep your eyes open for Bumgarner and Alderson though. Both of them are tearing it up in Single A in their first season. ETA 2010-2011..

ugafan
07-26-2008, 08:42 PM
Cain isn't consistent enough to say he is as good as Shields is, he pitched a shutout a few nights ago, a couple weeks ago he got hot like crazy, consistency is key in baseball and Cain has not yet mastered it, he does have a lot of potential but Shields isn't in his prime just yet, given they have both shown signs of dominance, but Shields has shown signs of consistency while Cain has not, I would wait 3-4 years before I make my judgement on the two.


Excuse any grammar errors, I'm on my phone

giantspwn
07-26-2008, 08:44 PM
Cain isn't consistent enough to say he is as good as Shields is, he pitched a shutout a few nights ago, a couple weeks ago he got hot like crazy, consistency is key in baseball and Cain has not yet mastered it, he does have a lot of potential but Shields isn't in his prime just yet, given they have both shown signs of dominance, but Shields has shown signs of consistency while Cain has not, I would wait 3-4 years before I make my judgement on the two.


Excuse any grammar errors, I'm on my phone

Well put...

natepro
07-26-2008, 08:49 PM
It's interesting to me that so many Giants fans are ready and willing to tell anyone that doesn't value their rotation as much as they do that they either "don't watch the Giants" or "don't know anything about them."

WhiteSoxLifer
07-26-2008, 09:11 PM
This is pointless since free agency is so prevalent. It could be the Yankees if they have Joba, CC, Hughes, Kennedy.

Who knows? Who gives a ****?

WhiteSoxLifer
07-26-2008, 09:15 PM
Not the Giants though... What is it? 5 more years of ZITO!!!!! Not with the worst GM in baseball forget the Giants. They will never win shyt! Cain will leave for FA.

The A's are the class of the bay. They will win before the Giants do.

King Koopa
07-26-2008, 09:31 PM
I would have to say the Rays and the Marlins

Rays because of
Price 22
Kazmir 24
Shields 26
Garza 24

And Marlins because of

Johnson
Sanchez
Volstad
Olsen
Nolasco

King Koopa
07-26-2008, 09:34 PM
Dodgers

LHP)Kershaw: 19
RHP)Billingsley: 23
LHP)Scott Elbert: 22 (If healthy, could Kershaw 2.0; but older)
RHP)James McDonald: 23 (3.04 era in Double A)
LHP)CC Sabathia: 28 (he said LA is top choice)

3 lefties, 2 righties.

Wow who said CC would even pitch for you guys im pretty sure he rather pitch for the Angels instead of the dodgers..... They suck. And the only young pitcher they have is Billingsley and Kershaw.

natepro
07-26-2008, 09:37 PM
Who on earth cares how old these people are?

homie564
07-26-2008, 09:41 PM
rays maybe even the red sox with masterson buchholz lester bard beckett dice-k all at leeast moderately young

baberuth109
07-26-2008, 09:46 PM
the yankees will have a great rotaion
Chambirlin
wang
hughes
alan horne
aveves
breckman /kennedy
great pitching

Brewersin08
07-26-2008, 10:40 PM
Suppan doesn't exactly make your choice appealing

He'd be a pretty good 5th starter though. He isn't doing that terribly bad this year. He has like a 4.6ish era and is an innings eater usually pitching about 7 innings.

JHG722
07-26-2008, 11:02 PM
He'd be a pretty good 5th starter though. He isn't doing that terribly bad this year. He has like a 4.6ish era and is an innings eater usually pitching about 7 innings.

I'm not saying he's bad, but other teams have much better 5th starters.

brandonwarne52
07-27-2008, 12:08 AM
I can't believe nobody picked up on my Giants joke.

BostonFan 53
07-27-2008, 12:26 AM
rays IF (big if) they can keep all their talent.

Kazmir, Garza, Sheilds, Davis, Jackson Wow!!!

dodgernation
07-27-2008, 01:05 AM
dodgers

CC Sabathia:D:;)
Kershaw
Billingsley

dont forgot Roy Halladay;)

BigPapi04
07-27-2008, 01:11 AM
bucholz, lester, masterson, becketts still young but dont count him and say bard and bowden....wow

BostonFan 53
07-27-2008, 01:25 AM
No matter what there prospect situation are right now, I think the big spending teams should always be a canidate for these things. Yankees, Cubs. Tigers, Red Sox and a few others could just sign 2 great pitchers for 18 mil each and be considered great.

agureghian
07-27-2008, 01:50 AM
the rays and red sox and a's
i like hte A's especially

1. Brett Anderson 19
2. Gio Gonzalez 22
3. Trevor Cahill 20
4. James Simmons 22
5. Greg Smith 24

or maybe thers someone im forgetting.

brodawgs
07-27-2008, 01:55 AM
Please rename this thread "Giants fans obsessing over their line-up."

CAIN=FUTURE
07-27-2008, 01:56 AM
Giants:
Cain-Valdez-Foppert-Williams-Aardsma
I your saying Cain is just another pitcher with potential and wont pan out, then you are dumb.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-27-2008, 01:57 AM
If you make a new thread just to talk about your team's strength, your a homer.

It was made out of some what of request. The best rotation thread was turning into the beswt rotation in the future thread.

brandonwarne52
07-27-2008, 01:59 AM
I your saying Cain is just another pitcher with potential and wont pan out, then you are dumb.

I'm saying all I've heard for the last 5 years is how the Giants rotation will be loaded 'soon'.

Soon still hasn't come.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-27-2008, 02:00 AM
I'm saying all I've heard for the last 5 years is how the Giants rotation will be loaded 'soon'.

Soon still hasn't come.

Those pitchers you listed hail in comparison to Cain and Lincecum, even Sanchez. Valdez could have if not for injury.

brandonwarne52
07-27-2008, 02:01 AM
It's pale, and they were top 10 Giants prospects in 2003.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-27-2008, 02:03 AM
It's pale, and they were top 10 Giants prospects in 2003.

Well I never saw much in any of them. Merkin Valdez was the only one who was bound to be a all star caliber pitcher.

vigilantex69
07-27-2008, 02:11 AM
Texas Rangers

Eric Hurley
Vicente Padilla
Edison Volquez
John Burkett
Nolan Ryan

Wait, what the hell were we talking about again?

brandonwarne52
07-27-2008, 02:46 AM
People put way too much ****ing stock in the future anyway. I want to win today.

Tragedy
07-27-2008, 02:58 AM
People put way too much ****ing stock in the future anyway. I want to win today.
Hank Steinbrenner, that you?!

Run Gardner Run
07-27-2008, 03:04 AM
Yankees:

1. God
2. Jesus Christ
3. CC Sabathia
4. Johan Santana (at age 27 forever)
5. Tim Lincecum
6. Joba Chamberlain
7. Roy Halladay
8. Josh Beckett
9. Rich Harden (Always healthy)
10. Tony Pena Jr.

Man that is a nice 10 man rotation we have in a few years....

METS4LIFE1988
07-27-2008, 03:06 AM
Yankees:

1. God
2. Jesus Christ
3. CC Sabathia
4. Johan Santana (at age 27 forever)
5. Tim Lincecum
6. Joba Chamberlain
7. Roy Halladay
8. Josh Beckett
9. Rich Harden (Always healthy)
10. Tony Pena Jr.

Man that is a nice 10 man rotation we have in a few years....

Did you wake up already?

DmL
07-27-2008, 03:07 AM
Well the Cubs should have fantastic all-around pitching in the future.

Zambrano-27
Harden-26
Samardzija- believe the hype says Buster Olney!

SU-Marmol
SU-Cashner/Ceda
Closer-Cashner/Ceda/Marmol

Ceda and Cashner aren't guaranteed, but they are Top 100 prospects.

METS4LIFE1988
07-27-2008, 03:07 AM
1. Santana
2. Pelfrey
3. Maine
3. Holt
4. Niese

:drool:

Run Gardner Run
07-27-2008, 03:09 AM
Well the Cubs should have fantastic all-around pitching in the future.

Zambrano-27
Harden-26
Samardzija- believe the hype says Buster Olney!

SU-Marmol
SU-Cashner/Ceda
Closer-Cashner/Ceda/Marmol

Ceda and Cashner aren't guaranteed, but they are Top 100 prospects.

Said that about Kennedy too. Dont believe much of what ESPN says

brandonwarne52
07-27-2008, 03:10 AM
Hank Steinbrenner, that you?!

I just mean rebuilding seems to just be an easy answer.....

We'll be good...later. Well then don't talk about yourself in present-day threads.

BostonFan 53
07-27-2008, 03:13 AM
I just mean rebuilding seems to just be an easy answer.....

We'll be good...later. Well then don't talk about yourself in present-day threads.

I agree with you here. Rebuilding is never a sure-thing.

PhillyUD26
07-27-2008, 03:18 AM
I really like the Twins:

Liriano
Slowey
Baker
Blackburn
Perkins/anyone (I'm sure brandonwarne knows of who it will be)

brandonwarne52
07-27-2008, 03:21 AM
They do have a few prospect options that are really nice.

cuttygiantsfan
07-27-2008, 03:26 AM
giants have lincecum,cain,alderson,bumgarner,sanchez

idk much about other teams farms im just saying that is pretty strong.

Run Gardner Run
07-27-2008, 03:29 AM
Theres not alot of people who know much about other teams farm systems besides maybe the Rays. Isnt there no point to this thread due to that? You see the Giants fans saying they will be #1 when everyone else says no, yet they continue to think they will have the best.

PhillyUD26
07-27-2008, 03:40 AM
giants have lincecum,cain,alderson,bumgarner,sanchez

idk much about other teams farms im just saying that is pretty strong.

ok, well half of them are still on the farm, which means they have no ML time yet...so in 2-3 years they will probably still won't be anything to write home about.

Run Gardner Run
07-27-2008, 03:49 AM
Not every pitcher could be like Chamberlain and Lincecum and come up and dominate right away.

spazzmccrory
07-27-2008, 03:56 AM
C.C. (if brewers retain him)
Yo-Yo
Parra
Jefferies
WHOEVER

PhillyUD26
07-27-2008, 04:02 AM
Not every pitcher could be like Chamberlain and Lincecum and come up and dominate right away.

Joba came up as a reliever...there's a big difference between throwing an inning each game and starting a game. Especially when we are talking about rotations in this thread.

Run Gardner Run
07-27-2008, 04:51 AM
Joba came up as a reliever...there's a big difference between throwing an inning each game and starting a game. Especially when we are talking about rotations in this thread.

So..Joba isnt pitching right now in the rotation? Joba isnt dominating right now in the rotation?

vladdy#27
07-27-2008, 04:58 AM
Joba came up as a reliever...there's a big difference between throwing an inning each game and starting a game. Especially when we are talking about rotations in this thread.

he is now a starter and is pitching GREAT and will be a starter in 2-3 years

Run Gardner Run
07-27-2008, 05:06 AM
In 100+ innings, Joba has yet to give up more than 3 runs in an appearance.While Lincecum has given up 5+ ER in an appearance I think 6 times. Has a 127/40 K/BB ratio with a career 1.85 ERA. He has been about equal to Lincecum if you average it out. When Joba pitched out of the Pen it was in pressure situations, its not like it was in 8-0 games.

I have a feeling people just look at his 3-3 record and make their opinion from there

bagwell368
07-27-2008, 07:38 AM
I'll go Red Sox as the best 1-12 because:


1. young player development is in top 5 in game
2. they have more money then anyone but Yanks

Beckett
Lester
Bucholz
Bowden
Masterson
whatever FA ace(s) they need/want
whatever bullpen guys they need

Paps

Halladay
07-27-2008, 12:42 PM
The Rays are good, RedSox, Cubs have potential if they can keep together they're current staff, I like the Jays as well- Dustin McGowan, Doc Halladay, Shaun Marcum, David Purcey(a power pitching lefty who just joined the rotation) and Jesse Litsch. I think that's a very nice rotation which is very balanced out between power pitchers and control type pitchers.

PhillyUD26
07-27-2008, 02:22 PM
So..Joba isnt pitching right now in the rotation? Joba isnt dominating right now in the rotation?

Yea but how long has be been in the league before he's pitched as a starter?? You could find much better examples of pitchers who came in and dominated right away as a starting pitcher, and didn't have to be 'babied in' as a relief pitcher for a year.

Run Gardner Run
07-27-2008, 02:52 PM
It wasnt a year, it was August September April May.

DmL
07-27-2008, 03:18 PM
Said that about Kennedy too. Dont believe much of what ESPN says

I was being sarcastic with the Buster thing. But really, not many people who throw 97 have his kind of movement. I remember back when he signed he was compared to Smoltz. Sure looked like him.

dblockhot21
07-27-2008, 03:49 PM
In 2-3 years check this out.

Sean Gallagher
Gio Gonzalez
Trevor Cahill
Brett Anderson
Henry Rodriguez/Greg Smith/Dana Eveland/Fautino DE Los Santos/James simmons/

MrBloop
07-27-2008, 05:00 PM
Joba came up as a reliever...there's a big difference between throwing an inning each game and starting a game. Especially when we are talking about rotations in this thread.

And Joba came up as a starter by the way...

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one, Joba is the best young pitcher in all of baseball, reliever or otherwise.

Wang
Joba
Hughes
CC
some1 nasty via free agency


I haven't givin up on kennedy (like most) and Horne could be a nice starter as well.

MrBloop
07-27-2008, 05:04 PM
If Kazmir keeps throwing as many pitches as he does now per start, he may not be starting any games in a few seasons down the road.

some1 tell him its ok to pitch to contact please...or don't actually ;)

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 05:10 PM
tim lincecum
matt cain
madison bumbgardner
tim alderson
barry zito lol

by far the best!!

PhillyUD26
07-27-2008, 05:11 PM
And Joba came up as a starter by the way...

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one, Joba is the best young pitcher in all of baseball, reliever or otherwise.

Wang
Joba
Hughes
CC
some1 nasty via free agency


I haven't givin up on kennedy (like most) and Horne could be a nice starter as well.

Haha Yankee Homer

How about Lincecum? Hamels? Kershaw? Billingsley? Felix? Morrow?

brandonwarne52
07-27-2008, 05:21 PM
Liriano?

mnp2597
07-27-2008, 05:25 PM
The Giants by far if they hang on to their young guys and they continue to develop

jscotty8
07-27-2008, 05:27 PM
Joba isn't the best young pitcher in baseball... the only reason he gets even his name in the same sentance as timmy, cain or king felix is that he is in new york...

JHG722
07-27-2008, 05:30 PM
tim lincecum
matt cain
madison bumbgardner
tim alderson
barry zito lol

by far the best!!

By far? It's not even the best...

DmL
07-27-2008, 05:37 PM
The A's rotation is going to be stacked. Joba is not the best young pitcher, because there's this guy named Lincecum, and this other guy named Volquez.

BTW, backing up my Samardzija homerism, looks like he's gonna stay up for the rest of the year and play the "Joba role" and be the bridge to Kerry Wood with Marmol. That's going to be the best back of the bullpen IMO.

If you haven't seen him, watch some BBT and you'll see how he fared today:smoking:

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 05:49 PM
By far? It's not even the best...

then who is the best?

JHG722
07-27-2008, 05:49 PM
then who is the best?

I think it's pretty unanimous that the Rays is...

tallboy12321
07-27-2008, 05:51 PM
Haha Yankee Homer

How about Lincecum? Hamels? Kershaw? Billingsley? Felix? Morrow?

If Lincecum was in NY then by now he'd have already been dubbed the best player in the league and inducted into the HOF. Yankees are overhyped, but thats redundant. Ah well.

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 05:52 PM
I think it's pretty unanimous that the Rays is...

nope. . giants are!!

JHG722
07-27-2008, 05:53 PM
nope. . giants are!!

Really? I dont think the Giants future rotation has 3+ aces in it...

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 05:55 PM
Really? I dont think the Giants future rotation has 3+ aces in it...

cain=ACE
lincecum=ACE
Zito=was an ACE lol
Bumbgardner and alderson=could be ace. . .look at both of their stats now and they are unbelieveable

BostonFan 53
07-27-2008, 06:07 PM
cain=ACE
lincecum=ACE
Zito=was an ACE lol
Bumbgardner and alderson=could be ace. . .look at both of their stats now and they are unbelieveable

Scott Kazmir, Wade Davis, Matt Garza, James Sheilds is much better.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-27-2008, 06:08 PM
In 2-3 years check this out.

Sean Gallagher
Gio Gonzalez
Trevor Cahill
Brett Anderson
Henry Rodriguez/Greg Smith/Dana Eveland/Fautino DE Los Santos/James simmons/

As much as I love Gally hes only projected to be a #2 at best

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 06:14 PM
Scott Kazmir, Wade Davis, Matt Garza, James Sheilds is much better.

well u forgot about david price lol

JHG722
07-27-2008, 06:15 PM
cain=ACE
lincecum=ACE
Zito=was an ACE lol
Bumbgardner and alderson=could be ace. . .look at both of their stats now and they are unbelieveable

Ugh. I'm not going to bother with this, but there's so much wrong with this post...

Seamhead
07-27-2008, 06:17 PM
Barry Zito was never an ace.

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 06:19 PM
Ugh. I'm not going to bother with this, but there's so much wrong with this post...

omg i kno the giants are just going to completely suck in 2-3 years because there pitching staff just sucks badly!!!! hahahaha just wait and u will see!!

YankeeFan28
07-27-2008, 06:19 PM
I don't know how this thread got this far. The Rays rotation is and will be nasty in the near future.

PhillyUD26
07-27-2008, 06:19 PM
As much as I love Gally hes only projected to be a #2 at best

I agree, but Gio WILL be an ace, and Anderson has a very good chance to be as well...so:

Gio Gonzalez
Brett Anderson
Sean Gallagher
Trevor Cahill
Henry Rodriguez/Greg Smith/Dana Eveland/Fautino DE Los Santos/James simmons/


Add the Duke in there too if Beane forks out the cash for him.

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 06:20 PM
Barry Zito was never an ace.

yea he only won a cy young but that means nothing

JHG722
07-27-2008, 06:20 PM
omg i kno the giants are just going to completely suck in 2-3 years because there pitching staff just sucks badly!!!! hahahaha just wait and u will see!!

You can have all the pitching in the world, but with a bunch of scrubs in your lineup, you're not going to win many games...

YankeeFan28
07-27-2008, 06:21 PM
yea he only won a cy young but that means nothing

Derek Jeter is a Gold Glover, does that mean something?

Zito only won because of his win total that year, not because he was the better pitcher.

And most people would've taken Mulder and Hudson over Zito during the stint they were all there.

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 06:23 PM
You can have all the pitching in the world, but with a bunch of scrubs in your lineup, you're not going to win many games...

all that we need is power and world series bound!!!!

Seamhead
07-27-2008, 06:24 PM
yea he only won a cy young but that means nothing

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/944_P_season_full_1_20080726.png

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/944_P_season_full_2_20080726.png

His best FIP-ERA, which is defense independent, is 3.52, and that's not very impressive and not an ACE FIP.

Zito can thank that great Oakland defense and McAfee for keeping his ERAs low. Hell, he should give Billy Beane some of the money he's making for putting together very good defensive teams

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 06:25 PM
Derek Jeter is a Gold Glover, does that mean something?

Zito only won because of his win total that year, not because he was the better pitcher.

And most people would've taken Mulder and Hudson over Zito during the stint they were all there.

then why didnt they win the cy young then?

JHG722
07-27-2008, 06:26 PM
all that we need is power and world series bound!!!!

Wow, another HUGE Giants homer. What a surprise!

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 06:28 PM
ya no kiddin lol :)

JHG722
07-27-2008, 06:28 PM
:pity:

natepro
07-27-2008, 06:29 PM
then why didnt they win the cy young then?

Because people that vote for the Cy Young winner generally look at things like a pitcher's W-L record, which is utterly meaningless?

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 06:29 PM
oh yea i forgot lol

Seamhead
07-27-2008, 06:31 PM
hahaha

That's the kind of laughter you hear [read] when you know that person has nothing to say because he's dead wrong.

It's almost better than getting no response....

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 06:32 PM
easy ther seamhead

JHG722
07-27-2008, 06:33 PM
easy ther seamhead

No, dude, you got told in this thread...

natepro
07-27-2008, 06:33 PM
This is quality stuff right here.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-27-2008, 06:36 PM
Because people that vote for the Cy Young winner generally look at things like a pitcher's W-L record, which is utterly meaningless?

W-L isn't completely useless. Although it is absolutely terrible to determine how good a pitcher is, it shows how much a pitcher has contributed to his team. Winning award isn't just based on who's the best, its also based on who helped their team the most.

natepro
07-27-2008, 06:39 PM
W-L isn't completely useless. Although it is absolutely terrible to determine how good a pitcher is, it shows how much a pitcher has contributed to his team. Winning award isn't just based on who's the best, its also based on who helped their team the most.

In what way does it show what a pitcher has contributed to his team?

CAIN=FUTURE
07-27-2008, 06:39 PM
I think it's pretty unanimous that the Rays is...

Unanimous, no...but probably yes.

Seamhead
07-27-2008, 06:39 PM
W-L isn't completely useless. Although it is absolutely terrible to determine how good a pitcher is, it shows how much a pitcher has contributed to his team. Winning award isn't just based on who's the best, its also based on who helped their team the most.

Win-Loss records don't tell you that, either.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-27-2008, 06:41 PM
Win-Loss records don't tell you that, either.

Yeah. If a pitcher gets a win then his team won, if he gets a loss his team loss.

natepro
07-27-2008, 06:42 PM
Also, I would argue that winning an award isn't based on who's actually best, or who helped their team the most. No one looks at VORP, or OPS+, or ERA+, or Runs Created, or Batting Runs, or anything like that when they're voting on this stuff. It's just who has amassed the highest of the sexy stats. That's pretty much it.

Just ask Bartolo Colon.

brandonwarne52
07-27-2008, 06:43 PM
Yeah. If a pitcher gets a win then his team won, if he gets a loss his team loss.

Why wasn't Jeriome Robertson a hot commodity after 2003, then?

natepro
07-27-2008, 06:44 PM
Yeah. If a pitcher gets a win then his team won, if he gets a loss his team loss.

And a pitcher can give up 10 earned runs over 5 innings and get the win. That doesn't mean he helped his team at all, in fact it means they had to score at least 11 runs to win the game, but he still gets that W.

And win or loss aren't the only outcomes. What does it tell you about how he helped his team if he gets a no decision?

ZHAKIDD532
07-27-2008, 06:45 PM
If everyone is gonna be a friggin homer...

Johan Santana
Mike Pelfrey
Oliver Perez
Brad Holt
Jon Niese

Niese is close, Holt is in rookie ball but flat out dominating kids and he should probably be somewhere around AA by now, Olly is figuring it out, he can be deadly, last 2 months Pelfrey has turned a corner, and Johan is friggin Johan Santana...

That's what I'm talkin about!!!

Seamhead
07-27-2008, 06:47 PM
Yeah. If a pitcher gets a win then his team won, if he gets a loss his team loss.

What if he gets a no decision?:confused:

Win-Loss records don't tell you how a pitcher pitched. A pitcher can pitch like total **** in a season, but he played behind a juggernaut offense, so he would rack up a lot of W's.

On the other hand, you can have an amazingly good pitcher. 2.00 ERA, 2.00 FIP, 4 K/BB, yet he plays for an incredibly weak offense or his team has a bad bullpen, which blows his leads.

Win-loss records don't tell you that much about a pitcher. Personally, I completely ignore them.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-27-2008, 06:51 PM
What if he gets a no decision?:confused:

Win-Loss records don't tell you how a pitcher pitched. A pitcher can pitch like total **** in a season, but he played behind a juggernaut offense, so he would rack up a lot of W's.

On the other hand, you can have an amazingly good pitcher. 2.00 ERA, 2.00 FIP, 4 K/BB, yet he plays for an incredibly weak offense or his team has a bad bullpen, which blows his leads.

Win-loss records don't tell you that much about a pitcher. Personally, I completely ignore them.

I understand that, my favorite player is Matt Cain. He had that the worst of any SP last year.

The bottom line is if you get a win, you did enough to get your team the victory. If you gave up 9 runs and you got the win you did your job, not a good job, but you did your job non the less. I know a pitchers record is a terrible way to determine how effective they are, but it does tell you if they do their job.

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 06:54 PM
true that

Seamhead
07-27-2008, 06:57 PM
I understand that, my favorite player is Matt Cain. He had that the worst of any SP last year.

The bottom line is if you get a win, you did enough to get your team the victory. If you gave up 9 runs and you got the win you did your job, not a good job, but you did your job non the less. I know a pitchers record is a terrible way to determine how effective they are, but it does tell you if they do their job.

Your job is to give your team the best chance to win. If you give up 9 runs, you did not do that. You gave your team a very bad chance to win. Just because your team happened to win doesn't change that.

I can see your point, it's just not right. In my opinion, at least.

ugafan
07-27-2008, 06:57 PM
Unanimous, no...but probably yes.

Outside of Giants homers, yes.

This shouldnt even be a thread, yet its 10+ pages, :pity:

CAIN=FUTURE
07-27-2008, 06:59 PM
Outside of Giants homers, yes.

This shouldnt even be a thread, yet its 10+ pages, :pity:

I hate you.

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 06:59 PM
maybe we should just close this thread and open it up in 2 years!!!! then everything will be settled!! or maybe not??

natepro
07-27-2008, 07:01 PM
Okay, but only if we can still use excessive punctuation in two years.

PhillyUD26
07-27-2008, 07:02 PM
I hate you.

Hahahahahahaha

CAIN=FUTURE
07-27-2008, 07:03 PM
Okay, but only if we can still use excessive punctuation in two years.

Why dont you like these!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! they are awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! people know your serious whe you throw in some!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 07:04 PM
Okay, but only if we can still use excessive punctuation in two years.

well i supose

natepro
07-27-2008, 07:04 PM
:laugh2: :laugh2:

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 07:06 PM
!!!!

CB30
07-27-2008, 07:11 PM
This is a pretty big homerfest

showtym24
07-27-2008, 07:30 PM
kershaw
billingsley
sabathia = BEST
mcdonald
elbert

natepro
07-27-2008, 08:00 PM
You forgot to add Johan Santana and Jake Peavy into your fantasy rotation there.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-27-2008, 08:31 PM
You forgot to add Johan Santana and Jake Peavy into your fantasy rotation there.

Plus we all know cuban is going to buy the cubs and then sign Sheets AND CC.

Z
Harden
Sheets
Sabbathia
Demp
:smoking:

yankeesfan65
07-27-2008, 08:43 PM
i think its going to be the yankees. they will sign sheets or CC and have
sheets/cc
joba
wang
phil hughes
andy pettitte

dblockhot21
07-27-2008, 08:49 PM
Okland a's rotation in two or three years

Sean gallangher (22)
gio gonzalez (22)
Trevor cahill (20) minor league allstar
Brett Anderson (20) Minor league allstar
Henery Rodrigeuz throw 100 mph at futures game three times and only (20) years old.
also starters:James simmons/Dana Eveland/greg smith/Fantos Del Santos(22)power arm/Not including dalles braden and justin duke if he's still there.

ugafan
07-27-2008, 08:49 PM
Nope The Braves easy,
1. John Rocker
2. Smoltz(right arm fell off, will pitch lefty)
3. Glavine(wheelchair)
4. Maddux(still has control)
5. Francouer(can't hit, crazy arm, ZOMG, make him a pitcher!)

Giants2009
07-27-2008, 09:16 PM
man what a homer fest lol

sanfranfan1210
07-27-2008, 10:15 PM
Giants

natepro
07-27-2008, 10:23 PM
Oh. Well now I'm convinced. :laugh2:

JHG722
07-27-2008, 10:32 PM
i think its going to be the yankees. they will sign sheets or CC and have
sheets/cc
joba
wang
phil hughes
andy pettitte

Yankees won't get either. Bank on it.

UNETOWNBAYAREA
07-27-2008, 10:38 PM
Giants

Cain
Lincecum
Sanchez
Madison Bumgarner
Tim Alderson

JHG722
07-27-2008, 10:39 PM
Giants

Cain
Lincecum
Sanchez
Madison Bumgarner
Tim Alderson

Oh, look, another homer Giants fan with exactly the same post...

GHGHCP
07-27-2008, 10:51 PM
Yankees won't get either. Bank on it.



I can see Sheets going to the Yankees. I do however see CC coming home to California, most likely with the Dodgers.

JHG722
07-27-2008, 10:53 PM
I can see Sheets going to the Yankees. I do however see CC coming home to California, most likely with the Dodgers.

I'd say it's more likely he goes somewhere slightly more 'south'

sacgiants1213
07-27-2008, 11:00 PM
Giants

Cain
Lincecum
Sanchez
Madison Bumgarner
Tim Alderson

where's zito gonna be?

u think we'll send him to the pen and have a long relief pitcher making like 18 mil?

ChiCubs4life44
07-27-2008, 11:03 PM
Cubs

Zambrano
Harden (assuming they sign him)
SAMARDZIJA!!!

GHGHCP
07-27-2008, 11:03 PM
I'd say it's more likely he goes somewhere slightly more 'south'

Sheets to the Mets? :D

WSU Tony
07-27-2008, 11:19 PM
man what a homer fest lol

Yeah, especially this one.... (lol)


i think its going to be the yankees. they will sign sheets or CC and have
sheets/cc
joba
wang
phil hughes
andy pettitte

JHG722
07-27-2008, 11:20 PM
Yankees:

Nolan Ryan
CC
Sheets
Wang
Cy Young

SJ5382
07-27-2008, 11:58 PM
If the Yanks do sign CC, and Hughes comes around, they may have it...

Sabathia
Chamberlain
Wang
Hughes
Who cares?

REGular
07-28-2008, 01:25 AM
I don't understand why it would take a Marlins fan to bring in the Fish:

Nolasco: 25
Johnson: 24
Olsen: 24
Sanchez: 24
Volstad: 21

They're entire rotation is under the age of 25 and they are producing right now. With, at most, only 2/3 years of experience at the Major league level.

In 2006 the Marlins became the only team to feature 4 rookies with double-digit victories (Nolasco, Johnson, Olsen, Sanchez). When Lincy & Cain can string that together, and add another two starters as well they can be mentioned in the same discussion . . .

They are relevant now, and there are no signs that they will slow down in the next 2 or 3 years.

(Notable Mention: Andrew Miller: 23)

REGular
07-28-2008, 01:26 AM
giants have lincecum,cain,alderson,bumgarner,sanchez

idk much about other teams farms im just saying that is pretty strong.

If you don't know what to compare it to, then you can't know that it is "pretty strong".

ugafan
07-28-2008, 01:36 AM
Nope The Braves easy,
1. John Rocker
2. Smoltz(right arm fell off, will pitch lefty)
3. Glavine(wheelchair)
4. Maddux(still has control)
5. Francouer(can't hit, crazy arm, ZOMG, make him a pitcher!)

Bump

CAIN=FUTURE
07-28-2008, 02:07 AM
I can see Sheets going to the Yankees. I do however see CC coming home to California, most likely with the Dodgers.

He grew up a Giants/A's fan! He won't go to either SoCal team. Maybe the Angels, but I doubt it.

PhillyUD26
07-28-2008, 02:17 AM
He grew up a Giants/A's fan! He won't go to either SoCal team. Maybe the Angels, but I doubt it.

I highly doubt that him growing up a Giants/A's fan will prevent him from signing with the Dodgers. He goes where the $$ is.