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JordansBulls
07-25-2008, 12:57 AM
Voting for #8 has concluded and PSD's Official #8 Player of all time is....


Hakeem Olajuwon

http://www.nba.com/media/history/olajuwon_254_970101.jpg


21.8 PPG | 11.1 RPG | 2.5 AST | .513 FG | 3.1 BPG | 23.59 PER


Achievements:

12 time All-Star
2 NBA Championships
1 Time MVP
2 Time Finals MVP
2 DPOY Awards
6 Time All-NBA First Teamer
5 Time All-NBA Defensive First Teamer
Led in Rebounding 2x
Led in Blocks 3x
Most Blocks Recorded in NBA History for the Season
Most Career Blocks Recorded in Playoff History and Highest Blocks Average




Hakeem Olajuwon = 53 votes
Shaquille O'Neal = 29 votes
Kobe Bryant = 24 votes
Tim Duncan = 6 votes
Julius Erving = 6 votes
Jerry West = 4 votes
Elgin Baylor = 2 votes
John Havlicek = 1 vote
Karl Malone = 1 vote
George Mikan = 1 vote
Other = 1 vote



The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242529)
2. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243543)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244377)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245662)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246661)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247634)
7. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248716)
8. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249523)


Voting will now begin for the Ninth greatest player of all time....

lalakobe24
07-25-2008, 01:00 AM
gotta a be KOBE

Vidball
07-25-2008, 01:04 AM
Shaq-Fu again.

LakerFan4L1fe24
07-25-2008, 01:08 AM
Had to vote for the Diesel

homestarunner93
07-25-2008, 01:08 AM
Shaq, for the third time in a row. If Kobe beats him out here, its BS.

Ramon Nivar
07-25-2008, 01:08 AM
Shaq...Again....

ee
07-25-2008, 01:09 AM
i go with shaq

PhillyLuver
07-25-2008, 01:09 AM
Shaq.

Cubsfan162512
07-25-2008, 01:29 AM
gotta be Shaq

jtlive2006
07-25-2008, 01:36 AM
Gotta be Shaq.

JIDsanity
07-25-2008, 01:53 AM
Shaq

RocketsRule
07-25-2008, 02:00 AM
Shaq, without a doubt.

Chronz
07-25-2008, 02:33 AM
Shaq has slid too far it should end now

stawka
07-25-2008, 04:59 AM
Why don't be all just vote for "other" and try to get Shaq and Duncan to an even lower spot? Oh wait, the "other" is Kobe and he's on the list now.

Anyway, my vote goes to Shaq. Duncan's next. Anyone that says otherwise is blinded by love for a certain player or unjustified hatred for another

GregOden#1
07-25-2008, 05:10 AM
Um...no.

It should go:

7. Jerry West
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Shaquille
10. Duncan
11. Erving
12. Hakeem

AllTheWay
07-25-2008, 06:07 AM
Um...no.

It should go:

7. Jerry West
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Shaquille
10. Duncan
11. Erving
12. Hakeem

Of course, we should all bend to your supreme knowledge Greg

JordansBulls
07-25-2008, 07:30 AM
Um...no.

It should go:

7. Jerry West
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Shaquille
10. Duncan
11. Erving
12. Hakeem

I think 7-15 are pretty close in comparison at this point. I would rank Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan over those other guys mainly because they won each times as the best player on their teams and did so multiple times. While Oscar and West were great neither ever won as the best player.

BALLER71
07-25-2008, 10:40 AM
I don't see how Shaq slid down here.
And Bill Rusell ahead of him :laugh:

We're talking about a Center who has averaged 29.7 and 29.2 Points in a season.

Dirty Dirk41
07-25-2008, 10:47 AM
i hate this thread.....KOBE on the list fo 9 best player of all time???sHAQ IS BETTER THAN HAVILCHEK OR DR.J or Bayler?? you people are insane

Dirty Dirk41
07-25-2008, 10:48 AM
I don't see how Shaq slid down here.
And Bill Rusell ahead of him :laugh:

We're talking about a Center who has averaged 29.7 and 29.2 Points in a season.

are u saying shaq is better than bill russell??? DIE!!!!!!!!


shaq wishes he could be bill russell

11 championships in 13 seasons.

8 straight.. get out of here..

JIDsanity
07-25-2008, 10:53 AM
Um...no.

It should go:

7. Jerry West
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Shaquille
10. Duncan
11. Erving
12. Hakeem

West is so underrated here.

dawgsfan_45
07-25-2008, 11:13 AM
i think it should go

shaq
timmy
west
kobe/dr.j
dr.j/kobe

fresh prince
07-25-2008, 01:07 PM
Shaq then Kobe.

kvrnm
07-25-2008, 03:35 PM
hondo, leading scorer in c's history

alexander_37
07-25-2008, 03:45 PM
timy D > shaq

but i voted dr j

Chronz
07-25-2008, 03:47 PM
I think 7-15 are pretty close in comparison at this point. I would rank Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan over those other guys mainly because they won each times as the best player on their teams and did so multiple times. While Oscar and West were great neither ever won as the best player.
So your saying its impossible for a player without a ring to be better than a player with one, even if he won it as the best player on the team?

What qualifies the player on the team as the best player? Finals MVP?

kobe2008mvp
07-25-2008, 04:06 PM
kobe then west than shaq then malone but kobe will be top five all-time if he wins 2-3 more rings which he probably will and one or 2 more mvp's.

JordansBulls
07-25-2008, 04:43 PM
So your saying its impossible for a player without a ring to be better than a player with one, even if he won it as the best player on the team?

What qualifies the player on the team as the best player? Finals MVP?

Dominant in the season, playoffs and finals

astrosmaniac
07-25-2008, 05:13 PM
Um...no.

It should go:

7. Jerry West
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Shaquille
10. Duncan
11. Erving
12. Hakeem

ahahahahahaha. no its hakeem, shaq, duncan

astrosmaniac
07-25-2008, 05:16 PM
i think it should go

shaq
timmy
west
kobe/dr.j
dr.j/kobe

totally agree

GregOden#1
07-25-2008, 05:28 PM
ahahahahahaha. no its hakeem, shaq, duncan

Show me why I should put Hakeem, Shaq or Duncan ahead of West and Oscar.

chicagowhitesox
07-25-2008, 06:35 PM
No love for the logo? Shaq doesn't deserve this spot.

LAKERMANIA
07-25-2008, 07:33 PM
Um...no.

It should go:

7. Jerry West
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Shaquille
10. Duncan
11. Erving
12. Hakeem

ugh

Chronz
07-25-2008, 07:33 PM
Dominant in the season, playoffs and finals

West accomplished all 3, his team just didnt win in the Finals, he was always a big game player subsequently leading to his Finals MVP. Its telling that Jerry West was so great in the Finals but the year he finally won that championship he played, lets say less than spectacular. So if the team can win with Jerry not bringing his A Game, doesnt that give you an idea of how much it wouldve taken Jerry to beat those Dynasty Celtics? Simply put, if Jerry wouldve won any of those titles then he wouldve probably shot up from top 10 to GOAT by your standards, thats too big of a leap for my liking to be based on 1 single game or series.

West shouldnt be behind Dream, Dream had 3 truly spectacular seasons sadly they came in the era alot of us vividly remember or grew up watching. Nobody remembers what West accomplished, few give him the credit as a ball player even less give him credit as an athlete.

JordansBulls
07-25-2008, 07:37 PM
West accomplished all 3, his team just didnt win in the Finals, he was always a big game player subsequently leading to his Finals MVP. Its telling that Jerry West was so great in the Finals but the year he finally won that championship he played, lets say less than spectacular. So if the team can win with Jerry not bringing his A Game, doesnt give you an idea of how much it wouldve taken Jerry to beat those dynasty Celtics? Simply put, if Jerry wouldve won any of those titles then he wouldve probably shot up form top 10 to GOAT, thats too big of a leap for my liking to be based on 1 single game or series.

West shouldnt be behind Dream, Dream had 3 truly spectacular seasons sadly they came in the era alot of us vividly remember or grew up watching. Nobody remembers what West accomplished, few give him the credit as a ball player even less give him credit as an athlete.

West was probably the 2nd greatest playoff performer of all time behind MJ, but in the recognition of sports you are based on if you are dominant and if you win.

Chronz
07-25-2008, 07:44 PM
West was probably the 2nd greatest playoff performer of all time behind MJ, but in the recognition of sports you are based on if you are dominant and if you win.
Expecting Jerry West to win a title against those Celtics is asking too much of 1 man, its irresponsible to ask more from one player to prove his greatness than it is from a lesser player. Why should I respect Hakeems accomplishments more than Jerry's is what Im really asking you.

If the 2nd greatest playoff performer couldnt get it done, then why were you expecting him to?

GregOden#1
07-25-2008, 08:48 PM
West was probably the 2nd greatest playoff performer of all time behind MJ, but in the recognition of sports you are based on if you are dominant and if you win.

Exactly. Bill Russell:

Dominant? Check

Won? lol?

Bill Russell #1 GOAT

John Havlicek:

Dominant? Check

Won? 8 Titles

John Havlicek #2 all-time

All-stars like Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn come next. They were all dominant and won multiple championships (10 & 8 respectively).

If you set a criteria, you follow through on it

JordansBulls
07-26-2008, 12:09 AM
Exactly. Bill Russell:

Dominant? Check

Won? lol?

Bill Russell #1 GOAT

John Havlicek:

Dominant? Check

Won? 8 Titles

John Havlicek #2 all-time

All-stars like Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn come next. They were all dominant and won multiple championships (10 & 8 respectively).

If you set a criteria, you follow through on it

I don't call a center averaging 15 ppg and shooting 44% dominant. Sure he was dominant on defense but not offense. Dominant is a guy who is dominant on both ends and puts up the numbers.

Havlicek was great, but his numbers are not that great to back him up.

GregOden#1
07-26-2008, 12:39 AM
I don't call a center averaging 15 ppg and shooting 44% dominant. Sure he was dominant on defense but not offense. Dominant is a guy who is dominant on both ends and puts up the numbers.

Havlicek was great, but his numbers are not that great to back him up.

Jordan wasn't dominant defensively. He was a good defender, but not an anchor like Duncan or Russell. Therefore, you dont need to be both a dominant offensive player and a dominant defensive player, just one. So:

Bill Russell:

Dominant? Check

Won? lol?

Bill Russell #1 GOAT

John Havlicek:

Dominant? Check

Won? 8 Titles

John Havlicek #2 all-time

All-stars like Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn come next. They were all dominant and won multiple championships (10 & 8 respectively).

If you set a criteria, you follow through on it

SwaggaIke
07-26-2008, 12:46 AM
This **** is a travesty. Shaq gets my vote...yet again.

phillyphan4ever
07-26-2008, 12:50 AM
Kobe

JordansBulls
07-26-2008, 01:05 AM
Jordan wasn't dominant defensively. He was a good defender, but not an anchor like Duncan or Russell. Therefore, you dont need to be both a dominant offensive player and a dominant defensive player, just one. So:

Bill Russell:

Dominant? Check

Won? lol?

Bill Russell #1 GOAT

John Havlicek:

Dominant? Check

Won? 8 Titles

John Havlicek #2 all-time

All-stars like Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn come next. They were all dominant and won multiple championships (10 & 8 respectively).

If you set a criteria, you follow through on it


Jordan was dominant defensively. He not only has the most 1st teams defensively but was top 5 generally every year and won DPOY. In fact he was the only player for awhile to get 200 steals and 100 blocks the same season.

For Russell, he averaged 15 ppg on 44% shooting that is not dominant especially for a center. And he nor Hondo ever led in efficiency or were even top 3 in it.

GregOden#1
07-26-2008, 01:35 AM
Jordan was dominant defensively. He not only has the most 1st teams defensively but was top 5 generally every year and won DPOY. In fact he was the only player for awhile to get 200 steals and 100 blocks the same season.

For Russell, he averaged 15 ppg on 44% shooting that is not dominant especially for a center. And he nor Hondo ever led in efficiency or were even top 3 in it.

No he wasn't. Jordan never anchored a D like Russell or any other center. So he wasn't dominant defensively.

lakers4sho
07-26-2008, 01:54 AM
I am going to say the Logo because of his great skill. Even though he didn't win more than 1 championship because of the "curse", his great skill would make up for that lack of accomplishment.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
07-26-2008, 02:11 AM
DR. J for # 9

JordansBulls
07-26-2008, 07:44 AM
No he wasn't. Jordan never anchored a D like Russell or any other center. So he wasn't dominant defensively.

Sure he was, he won DPOY and that shows it and he has more First Teams than Russell. And Russell never won DPOY nor has as many First Teams.

Chronz
07-26-2008, 01:15 PM
Sure he was, he won DPOY and that shows it and he has more First Teams than Russell. And Russell never won DPOY nor has as many First Teams.

Please tell me your joking man

Afridi786
07-26-2008, 01:17 PM
Kobe bryant shudnt be the 10th best player ever....but he will, that is just lame...too many homers here.

Rylz
07-26-2008, 01:22 PM
Mailman. #2 scorer of all time. Enough said.

Cavs_Fan24
07-26-2008, 01:25 PM
where's LeBron on this thing??
lmao jk
maybe in a few years :)
anyways, i went with KB24
for one reason, 81!

yaowowrocket11
07-26-2008, 02:38 PM
I was having a hard time deciding between Shaq and Jerry West, but I voted for O'Neal, due to just being a purely dominate player.

ARMIN12NBA
07-27-2008, 03:32 AM
Sure he was, he won DPOY and that shows it and he has more First Teams than Russell. And Russell never won DPOY nor has as many First Teams.

You are so ignorant...The Defensive Player of the Year award started being handed out in 1983 so Russel never got a chance to win the award. If the award had been around then he would have won it almost every year. Same with Mikan, he should have won MVP every year, but the award didn't come until his last year in the league. BTW, Jordan was not dominant defensively just because he won a DPOY. There are players who are not dominant defensively and still win the award. Like Marcus Camby. He is not dominant in all areas of defense. He is a good shot blocker and rebounder, but is a little weak on man to man defense and help defense. MJ was a good defender, but not dominant and in the 90s, he wasn't even the best defender on his own team...

LAKERMANIA
07-27-2008, 03:44 AM
You are so ignorant...The Defensive Player of the Year award started being handed out in 1983 so Russel never got a chance to win the award. If the award had been around then he would have won it almost every year. Same with Mikan, he should have won MVP every year, but the award didn't come until his last year in the league. BTW, Jordan was not dominant defensively just because he won a DPOY. There are players who are not dominant defensively and still win the award. Like Marcus Camby. He is not dominant in all areas of defense. He is a good shot blocker and rebounder, but is a little weak on man to man defense and help defense. MJ was a good defender, but not dominant and in the 90s, he wasn't even the best defender on his own team...
true that

JordansBulls
07-27-2008, 09:50 AM
You are so ignorant...The Defensive Player of the Year award started being handed out in 1983 so Russel never got a chance to win the award. If the award had been around then he would have won it almost every year. Same with Mikan, he should have won MVP every year, but the award didn't come until his last year in the league. BTW, Jordan was not dominant defensively just because he won a DPOY. There are players who are not dominant defensively and still win the award. Like Marcus Camby. He is not dominant in all areas of defense. He is a good shot blocker and rebounder, but is a little weak on man to man defense and help defense. MJ was a good defender, but not dominant and in the 90s, he wasn't even the best defender on his own team...

I know exactly when the award started and I know when the defensive teams began. In fact really Camby is the only defensive player of the year guy who won that was not a dominant defensive player.
And to use guys nowadays as DPOY is a joke. There was a player that made the 1st team who finished 24th in voting which is absolutely ridiculous. Now what I mentioned was true, Russell didn't have a dPOY nor had as many first teams, however it doesn't mean that he wouldn't had had any or had more first teams. I was stating that he didn't.

Ex:
It like saying Rome is the most powerfull nation ever and then someone saying that they aren't because they didn't have Nuclear Bombs.

My point is you can't go back and give awards or weapontry to players or nations if they didn't exist at the time.


As for your other point for who was the best defender on his team.

I think that he was a better defender than Pippen when he wanted to be (where do you think Pippen learned to be a great defender from?), Pippen probably has the slight edge in "results" as you say. Some things to keep in mind when making this comparison, however:


-- Their defensive primes were at different times, and only coincided for a year or so. Jordan's defensive prime was from '88-'93, while Pippen's defensive prime was from '93-'97 imo. Therefore, anyone who mostly saw the second three-peat Bulls will almost invariably take Pippen, since he was in his defensive prime, while Jordan was past his (though still excellent on that end of the floor).

-- They had different defensive strengths. My personal opinion is that Jordan was better on the ball in an isolation situation while Pippen was slightly better in terms of team defense (i.e., plugging holes, rotating etc.); Jordan was a better post and fastbreak defender (by a good margin), while Pippen's length made him more of a shotblocking threat on the ball (e.g., to surprise the ball out of a shooter's hands; Pippen was also a better "quick jumper" for blocks on the interior than Jordan was; Jordan had better shotblocking instincts than Pippen overall in terms of off-the-ball blocks, however). They both had great hands for strips, with Jordan having the slight edge. Pippen generally had a wider defensive stance (or at least maintained a wider stance more frequently), which prevented players from getting past him, while Jordan was better at moving his feet. Both had phemonenal defensive instincts (for steals/deflections etc.), though I'd give Jordan the slight edge. Pippen was longer (obviously), but Jordan was quicker, so the space each could cover on the court was similar. They were the #1 and #2 best post helpers in the league for nearly a decade, and Jordan in particular was very adept at reading post situations from the weak side (e.g., he could tell if a post player was going to wheel into the middle or spin baseline, and when they would do so). Both were great at reading plays and snuffing them out (e.g., if a team was trying to run a curl for their SG, or a dive to the basket for their big man, MJ and Pippen would get there first to interfere with the play).


Keep in mind that these advantages for each player are all very slight. For example, Pippen was fantastic against SG/SF's in isolation situations, and Jordan was a great team defender. What puts Pippen over the top by a hair imo is the consistency of his effort on the defensive end. Jordan was incredibly consistent from '88-'93, but pulled it back a bit during that second three-peat due to age and the burden of being his team's primary offensive weapon. Even from '92-'93 Pippen was very consistent, as much so as Jordan. Therefore, overall, Pippen gets the nod.


Anyone saying it's "no contest" (as many on forums are wont to do for some reason) is foolish, though, and likely never saw '88-'93 Jordan (or, at the very least, '95-'98 Pippen is fresher in their minds). I've seen each of them do things defensively that they other didn't (and likely couldn't).

Chronz
07-27-2008, 03:18 PM
I know exactly when the award started and I know when the defensive teams began. In fact really Camby is the only defensive player of the year guy who won that was not a dominant defensive player.
And to use guys nowadays as DPOY is a joke. There was a player that made the 1st team who finished 24th in voting which is absolutely ridiculous.
Now what I mentioned was true, Russell didn't have a dPOY nor had as many first teams, however it doesn't mean that he wouldn't had had any or had more first teams. I was stating that he didn't.

Ex:
It like saying Rome is the most powerfull nation ever and then someone saying that they aren't because they didn't have Nuclear Bombs.

My point is you can't go back and give awards or weapontry to players or nations if they didn't exist at the time.


As for your other point for who was the best defender on his team.

I think that he was a better defender than Pippen when he wanted to be (where do you think Pippen learned to be a great defender from?), Pippen probably has the slight edge in "results" as you say. Some things to keep in mind when making this comparison, however:


-- Their defensive primes were at different times, and only coincided for a year or so. Jordan's defensive prime was from '88-'93, while Pippen's defensive prime was from '93-'97 imo. Therefore, anyone who mostly saw the second three-peat Bulls will almost invariably take Pippen, since he was in his defensive prime, while Jordan was past his (though still excellent on that end of the floor).

-- They had different defensive strengths. My personal opinion is that Jordan was better on the ball in an isolation situation while Pippen was slightly better in terms of team defense (i.e., plugging holes, rotating etc.); Jordan was a better post and fastbreak defender (by a good margin), while Pippen's length made him more of a shotblocking threat on the ball (e.g., to surprise the ball out of a shooter's hands; Pippen was also a better "quick jumper" for blocks on the interior than Jordan was; Jordan had better shotblocking instincts than Pippen overall in terms of off-the-ball blocks, however). They both had great hands for strips, with Jordan having the slight edge. Pippen generally had a wider defensive stance (or at least maintained a wider stance more frequently), which prevented players from getting past him, while Jordan was better at moving his feet. Both had phemonenal defensive instincts (for steals/deflections etc.), though I'd give Jordan the slight edge. Pippen was longer (obviously), but Jordan was quicker, so the space each could cover on the court was similar. They were the #1 and #2 best post helpers in the league for nearly a decade, and Jordan in particular was very adept at reading post situations from the weak side (e.g., he could tell if a post player was going to wheel into the middle or spin baseline, and when they would do so). Both were great at reading plays and snuffing them out (e.g., if a team was trying to run a curl for their SG, or a dive to the basket for their big man, MJ and Pippen would get there first to interfere with the play).


Keep in mind that these advantages for each player are all very slight. For example, Pippen was fantastic against SG/SF's in isolation situations, and Jordan was a great team defender. What puts Pippen over the top by a hair imo is the consistency of his effort on the defensive end. Jordan was incredibly consistent from '88-'93, but pulled it back a bit during that second three-peat due to age and the burden of being his team's primary offensive weapon. Even from '92-'93 Pippen was very consistent, as much so as Jordan. Therefore, overall, Pippen gets the nod.


Anyone saying it's "no contest" (as many on forums are wont to do for some reason) is foolish, though, and likely never saw '88-'93 Jordan (or, at the very least, '95-'98 Pippen is fresher in their minds). I've seen each of them do things defensively that they other didn't (and likely couldn't).

He is considered by many as the greatest defender of all-time, you cant use his lack of DPOY's or All-Defensive Teams as any sort of foundation for an argument. Your point is flawed because no one is giving Russell any new weaponry, he already possessed the tools he needed and was the best defender in the game, his lack of awards (BECUZ THEY DIDNT EXIST) do not diminish that status one bit. Im really questioning the integrity of your posts of late JB, I mean seriously whats the point of saying Russell doesnt have any All-Defensive teams or DPOYs? If they didnt exist then you cant hold Russell accountable.

Your too in love with awards that it often blinds you from the truth.

JordansBulls
07-27-2008, 03:20 PM
He is considered by many as the greatest defender of all-time, you cant use his lack of DPOY's or All-Defensive Teams as any sort of foundation for an argument. Your point is flawed because no one is giving Russell any new weaponry, he already possessed the tools he needed and was the best defender in the game, his lack of awards (BECUZ THEY DIDNT EXIST) do not diminish that status one bit. Im really questioning the integrity of your posts of late JB, I mean seriously whats the point of saying Russell doesnt have any All-Defensive teams or DPOYs? If they didnt exist then you cant hold Russell accountable.

Your too in love with awards that it often blinds you from the truth.

Did you see how the other poster responded to me with the information? That is why I mentioned what I did. He mentioned that Jordan wasn't a good defender so I mentioned that information that MJ had the most 1st teams defense. Everyone knows or should at least know that Russell was considered by many to be the best defensive player ever, but I was pointing out the facts as well.

ink
07-27-2008, 04:25 PM
Shaq.