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RedSoxtober
07-24-2008, 09:51 AM
I find it more than a little curious that Manny is suddenly finding himself too sore to play as the Yankees roll into town. Maybe looney Lobel was not that far off with his assertion that Manny was showing up the FO with that miserable pinch hitting episode in NY. It sounds a little fishy when the Manniacal one begs out and the manager and training staff don't have a clue while Manny claims to be hurting for a week.



Terry Francona said Manny Ramírez showed up yesterday morning and reported his right knee was sore, an overnight development the Red Sox manager said caught him by surprise. The trainers had not communicated any issue to Francona, he said, after Tuesday night's game.

"He showed up this morning; I wasn't ready for that," Francona said. "He said his right knee hurts."

Francona then joked, "The jaywalking, if you do it right, you won't hurt your knee."

Before the game, Ramírez told reporters his knee has been bothering him for about a week, but Francona said he had not been receiving treatment, not even for his hamstrings, in the last few days.

"I've just been trying to play it out," Ramírez said while jokingly singing for tips at his locker in the clubhouse, with his iPod docked to a speaker and a cup put out for donations from teammates. "I decided it was time to give it a rest."

Asked if he would be ready for the Yankees series, which begins tomorrow, Ramírez said, "I don't know. I'm day to day at this point."


Source: Boston Globe

Tragedy
07-24-2008, 09:54 AM
My reaction to all things Ramirez these days: :eyebrow:

Seriously, I'm pretty much done with the guy. He can fake it for all I care, he's so annoying.

X12Celtics3
07-24-2008, 10:01 AM
My reaction to all things Ramirez these days: :eyebrow:

Seriously, I'm pretty much done with the guy. He can fake it for all I care, he's so annoying.

Hey, he wins us championships, and that's enough to want me to keep him. His antics don't bother me as long as he performs, which he does. Really, do you think our team would be better if we got rid of him? Any player that is available at left field would be a huge downgrade, unless there are some available players that i do not know about?

Tragedy
07-24-2008, 10:08 AM
Hey, he wins us championships, and that's enough to want me to keep him. His antics don't bother me as long as he performs, which he does. Really, do you think our team would be better if we got rid of him? Any player that is available at left field would be a huge downgrade, unless there are some available players that i do not know about?
Before 2008, I never really had an issue with him.

2008? I'm sick of him. The thing with Youkilis, the thing with the traveling secretary, the possibility of him "sending a message" to the FO by K'ing on three pitches, and the fact that he continues to laugh when he makes a ridiculous play in the field are all reasons for me to say "I'm ready for Manny to be gone after this season". I've loved Manny's production for nearly 8 years on this team, but all good things must end. It seems like 2009 would be a solid transition year from Manny to whatever they bring in (Holliday, or whatever).

BRADY4MVP
07-24-2008, 10:22 AM
pick up his option after the year, then TRADE HIM AWAY! get some high 'ceiling spects for him. Some team will give away two top prospects for him.

I'm done with his crap too.......yea he's a good hitter, but you can find them. You can sign an OF who will hit .285 with 25-30 hr and 90ish RBI at fenway in the off season.

His crap is too much for the clubhouse, the team and especially ownership. For 20 Mil a year, im sure the ownership wants a real ball player, not some lazy slob.

I think his rolling over in Seattle was my final straw. what a srub. love having him in the lineup b/c of his bat-good hitter, but not a teammate at all.....and cut your hair

lil'papi
07-24-2008, 10:44 AM
Hey, he wins us championships, and that's enough to want me to keep him. His antics don't bother me as long as he performs, which he does. Really, do you think our team would be better if we got rid of him? Any player that is available at left field would be a huge downgrade, unless there are some available players that i do not know about?

We had a load of guys that won us championship! Some are gone and we won another.

I really believe if we get Holliday we are better longterm. ;)

He is becoming a giant distraction. The JAYwalking incident how was he in the crowd leaving? LEFT EARLY? Didn't take the team bus?
Why is it ok for him to leave the game before the game is over. The only way he showered and left with the crowd? He should be there....period.

Let the season play out see what he does this year, then decide. If we can't replace his bat then give him an option yr. (one) His value is declining especially for NL teams, the window in closing. Wasn't he basically released once already no team touched him. So now older and less production does he think teams will pay him the same coin as his prime? doubts......

Not because he won us a championship ...that takes a team effort.

sboyajian
07-24-2008, 12:46 PM
I liked him more when he didn't parade around for the media.

RSF1977
07-24-2008, 01:19 PM
Looks like it is time for Manny's little vacation that he seems to take every year now. With Ortiz comming back he probably figures " Hey is no problem"
with that Manny shrug.
I have stood behind him every year it feels like and it finally feels very old.
I would have really loved to see him play for 3 more years and see him retire a member of the Sox and have his number retired.

It just is not going to happen now. Take his option and trade him in the off season. This really saddens me. One of the greatest right handed hitters of all time and he acts like a 2 year old.

Gimme a team full of Pedroias any day.

Raidaz4Life
07-24-2008, 02:16 PM
Before 2008, I never really had an issue with him.

2008? I'm sick of him. The thing with Youkilis, the thing with the traveling secretary, the possibility of him "sending a message" to the FO by K'ing on three pitches, and the fact that he continues to laugh when he makes a ridiculous play in the field are all reasons for me to say "I'm ready for Manny to be gone after this season". I've loved Manny's production for nearly 8 years on this team, but all good things must end. It seems like 2009 would be a solid transition year from Manny to whatever they bring in (Holliday, or whatever).

I agree 100% I have always stuck up for Manny and admired his Amazing hitting ability but enough is enough he is an overgrown $20 million dollar baby and I don't think him leaving hurts our chances of winning whatsoever

americaspasttim
07-24-2008, 03:01 PM
Like Tragedy said all good things have to come to an end. I've always liked Manny even back when he was with Cleveland. However, I really don't think it is in his or the team's best interest for him to stay after this year...

Davey24
07-24-2008, 04:02 PM
Where do you guys think he will end up? Do you think most teams would be willing to overlook his silly antics and only focus on his batting power?

RedSoxtober
07-24-2008, 04:46 PM
Mets. He's only an incremental cost over Delgado's retiring contract and Minaya loves Boras clients. Manny would waive his 10/5 rights to play in NY, too. Not sure what we'd get back though.

NYY would have a hard debate over him, with Steinbrenner boys trying to talk Cashman and Girardi into it. They'll lose, though.

I could almost see LAA doing it if they were to renegotiate his deal and reduce the outlay. Anderson has only an option left and Vlad could use a bat behind him.

Wake's Fastball
07-24-2008, 05:39 PM
Mets. He's only an incremental cost over Delgado's retiring contract and Minaya loves Boras clients. Manny would waive his 10/5 rights to play in NY, too. Not sure what we'd get back though.

NYY would have a hard debate over him, with Steinbrenner boys trying to talk Cashman and Girardi into it. They'll lose, though.

I could almost see LAA doing it if they were to renegotiate his deal and reduce the outlay. Anderson has only an option left and Vlad could use a bat behind him.

I'm not sure about that though. I mean, yeah, knocking Manny's contract down a bit will help, but they've got nearly 50 million committed to three outfielders next season already, and while I realize they've got free-spending ways as much as any other big market team, it seems like there's got to be a breaking point as well, especially when none of the three outfielders they've got at this point are earning their money.

yaowowrocket11
07-24-2008, 08:24 PM
My reaction to all things Ramirez these days: :eyebrow:

Seriously, I'm pretty much done with the guy. He can fake it for all I care, he's so annoying.

Exactly. Me and you seem to be the main anti-Manny people here.

RedSoxtober
07-25-2008, 08:11 AM
I'm not sure about that though. I mean, yeah, knocking Manny's contract down a bit will help, but they've got nearly 50 million committed to three outfielders next season already, and while I realize they've got free-spending ways as much as any other big market team, it seems like there's got to be a breaking point as well, especially when none of the three outfielders they've got at this point are earning their money.

:confused:

Vlad is hitting .283/.342/.786 with 17HR and 53RBI
Hunter is right behind at .272/.334/.792 with 13HR and 44RBI

Neither is putting up huge numbers but they're not far off typical seasons either. The other in the mix is Matthews Jr. I never understood that signing (or the Hunter signing with him already on board). Those three are due $42.5M. I could see them dealing Matthews Jr to an NL club to get Manny in the lineup.

lil'papi
07-25-2008, 09:20 AM
Mets yeah... NYY no freakin way. Giardi would kill him before ST ended. We only see certain stupid things he does imagine the things we don't know about.
Tito has used his media savy to hide them.

Plus Matsui ain't going anywhere. Their production is basically the same at this point (healthy) and he isn't a distraction.

Abreu I see coming back too. I know I've heard them say as much. Damon?? Probably not long for NYC. Where does Manny fit? Stienburger will for sure want him , heck he wants Bonds, but smarter more level headed guys prevail.

I heard yesterday(EEI) Manny wants what I've been saying all along a 3/45-50 or 4/60 deal...just because its more money.
The arguement makes perfect sense.

Say the Sox take the option and Manny flops then his value drops like a rock for the final option year. RedSox then part ways and no team will offer him more than say 7-10mil?
If he declines like he has the last couple years or gets hurt his value goes bye-bye.

His ONLY real option is to get a long term deal NOW. Hence Borass....

Petertherock
07-25-2008, 08:01 PM
We are going to get swept by the Yankees as Manny takes his annual summer vacation. I say get him out of here and get someone who wants to play the whole season. I think it's funny a week or so ago people had the Yankees dead and burried and a few years away from being contenders but by the end of this series they could very easily be in first place with the Sox in 3rd place. Meanwhile, ******* Ramirez is taking his vacation and probably going out having a beer with Jeter and A-Rod. Edit: Make that more than one beer...how about a couple kegs.

gcoll
07-25-2008, 10:53 PM
I don't know....I hope he's in the lineup tomorrow against Pettitte though.

gunshow0323
07-25-2008, 11:22 PM
Hello,

I never usually do these stupid blogs because I know what alot of people talk about is stupid bullsh*t...but this topic is just getting out of hand. I am sick of hearing people bash on Manny Ramirez. I hear it on sporting news radio everyday, I read it on these stupid blogs, and it just gets ridiculous. Manny has had his times where he has done some pretty stupid things, i will admit to that...BUUUUUT..........you have to realize some very important things about Manny. EVERY year he keeps putting up the same consistent numbers, year in and year out. He is an RBI machine, he is still considered one of the greatest hitters in the game today, one of the most feared hitters of today and quite frankly of all time! I mean you COULD bring in a guy like Matt Holiday and im sure he MIGHT do a decent job, but how many players has Boston brought in who were considered one of the better players in the league and have fell straight to the bottom, some players cant handle playing in Boston, they cant handle the pressure. Manny on the other hand has handled playing in Boston maybe better than any other player. He the 3rd longest active player on the Roster behind Wakefield and Varitek. He has proven year after year that he can do it in Boston and he can do it magnificently. Not only are we talking about his offense, but god damn it...he is one of the best to ever play left field at fenway park!! he can play that wall better than ANYONE in the whole league. He has his stupid moments, but he is easily one of the most UNDERRATED left fielders in the game. This is just a joke that people want to just get rid of Manny. YEEEAAAAHHHH your right we probably should get rid of him, after all he has been on the All-Star team how many times since being with the Sox. YEEEEAAAAHHHH your right, we should get rid of Manny, i would love to see him play for another team, and do what alot of players that we have gotten rid of in the past do, nothing but good for other teams, YEEEEEAAAHHH your right, we should trade Manny, i would love to see him play for another team and produce 30+ homers, and 120+ RBI's per season, oh and YEEEEAHHHH your right, we should get rid of Manny, afterall what would be better than breaking up what is easily considered the best 1-2 punch of him and Ortiz!!!


THIS IS REDICULOUS!!! lol I would take Manny on my team anyday, especially when he is still producing the numbers that he is producing!!!

AS for his knee injury, how about you guys lay the hell off of him, and lets see what the doctors say tomorrow after he gets an MRI on his knee. For all of you people who think he is faking it, how about you pay attention to Red Sox baseball and realize that they wouldnt just send him to get an MRI if he was just faking it!!! Get a friggin clue!!! :)

ThreeIfBaerga
07-26-2008, 12:31 AM
I'm going to ignore the first half of that because it made my head explode, but I will address the last part, where you said "why would the send him to get an MRI if he's faking it" could very easily be them saying "Okay Manny, you keep telling us your knee is hurt, well, let's go verify that. If it's fine, you're playing and you can't ask out. If you've got an injury we'll let you sit or go on the DL, but we're sick of Manny deciding if he wants to play or not."

gunshow0323
07-26-2008, 01:08 AM
Making ur head explode? why because u know everything i said in that is completely true? lol yeah ur right...why would we still want manny? there are so many free agents out their this upcoming season who could produce the numbers that he does...lol

ThreeIfBaerga
07-26-2008, 01:23 AM
Making ur head explode? why because u know everything i said in that is completely true? lol yeah ur right...why would we still want manny? there are so many free agents out their this upcoming season who could produce the numbers that he does...lol

Mark Texiera and Matt Holliday are both going to be available this winter, and both could give the Sox the .400/.530 Manny has given us. . . But wait, he only gives that when he decides he wants to play. Not to mention both are less injury prone and play better defense.

Do I want Manny's bat in the lineup? Yeah, he's all they've got. Is Manny acting like a selfish child by holding himself out or watching three pitches from Mo in a big game? What about shoving team officials and getting pissy when he gets fined?

ccspence8
07-26-2008, 02:48 AM
Hello,

I never usually do these stupid blogs because I know what alot of people talk about is stupid bullsh*t...but this topic is just getting out of hand. I am sick of hearing people bash on Manny Ramirez. I hear it on sporting news radio everyday, I read it on these stupid blogs, and it just gets ridiculous. Manny has had his times where he has done some pretty stupid things, i will admit to that...BUUUUUT..........you have to realize some very important things about Manny. EVERY year he keeps putting up the same consistent numbers, year in and year out. He is an RBI machine, he is still considered one of the greatest hitters in the game today, one of the most feared hitters of today and quite frankly of all time! I mean you COULD bring in a guy like Matt Holiday and im sure he MIGHT do a decent job, but how many players has Boston brought in who were considered one of the better players in the league and have fell straight to the bottom, some players cant handle playing in Boston, they cant handle the pressure. Manny on the other hand has handled playing in Boston maybe better than any other player. He the 3rd longest active player on the Roster behind Wakefield and Varitek. He has proven year after year that he can do it in Boston and he can do it magnificently. Not only are we talking about his offense, but god damn it...he is one of the best to ever play left field at fenway park!! he can play that wall better than ANYONE in the whole league. He has his stupid moments, but he is easily one of the most UNDERRATED left fielders in the game. This is just a joke that people want to just get rid of Manny. YEEEAAAAHHHH your right we probably should get rid of him, after all he has been on the All-Star team how many times since being with the Sox. YEEEEAAAAHHHH your right, we should get rid of Manny, i would love to see him play for another team, and do what alot of players that we have gotten rid of in the past do, nothing but good for other teams, YEEEEEAAAHHH your right, we should trade Manny, i would love to see him play for another team and produce 30+ homers, and 120+ RBI's per season, oh and YEEEEAHHHH your right, we should get rid of Manny, afterall what would be better than breaking up what is easily considered the best 1-2 punch of him and Ortiz!!!


THIS IS REDICULOUS!!! lol I would take Manny on my team anyday, especially when he is still producing the numbers that he is producing!!!

AS for his knee injury, how about you guys lay the hell off of him, and lets see what the doctors say tomorrow after he gets an MRI on his knee. For all of you people who think he is faking it, how about you pay attention to Red Sox baseball and realize that they wouldnt just send him to get an MRI if he was just faking it!!! Get a friggin clue!!! :)

The first part I would say is exactly how I feel. Our best hitter in the lineup and people wanna leave him on the side of the highway. He hits .300 30+ 100+ every season. The only year he didn't do that was last year and that was because he was INJURED. Manny is known for a bad hammy and knee.

Do I think we should get Holliday? Yes
Do I think we should get rid of Manny? No

How many 36 year old players can put up numbers that Manny is putting up?


I really wouldn't doubt if Manny is faking just to get back at the ownership. Is it right? Not really but like they say you take the good with the bad. Don't even say "Well he makes 20 million a year so he should be hitting 45 hrs a year and be the perfect team player" It just gets old.

What the Sox SHOULD Do?
They should pick up Ramirez option for next season. Then at the end of the season, if he DOESN'T PREFORM or if Holliday is a FA you try to take a shot at signing him or any other big impact player.

ccspence8
07-26-2008, 02:50 AM
Mark Texiera and Matt Holliday are both going to be available this winter, and both could give the Sox the .400/.530 Manny has given us. . . But wait, he only gives that when he decides he wants to play. Not to mention both are less injury prone and play better defense.

Do I want Manny's bat in the lineup? Yeah, he's all they've got. Is Manny acting like a selfish child by holding himself out or watching three pitches from Mo in a big game? What about shoving team officials and getting pissy when he gets fined?

Holliday has this season and next season left on his contract.

CyYoungPapelbon
07-26-2008, 03:26 AM
For those who want Matt Holliday over Manny Ramirez: remember that it's more like Matt Holliday over Manny Ramirez as well as something like several cost controlled years of Clay Buchholz+another quality prospect. Matt Holliday is going to cost a lot in both prospects and then a long-term contract eventually. Manny costs neither.

I would much rather either bring Manny back for another year (my choice--then I'd go after Holliday when/if he becomes a free agent after '09) or go after a hitter like Dunn or Burrell that's probably not quite as good as Holliday but a free agent and won't cost top level prospects.

I'd also point out that there's really nothing to suggest Manny tanked that AB vs. Rivera. It was a bad at bat against a legend who was spotting perfectly and gets all the calls even on pitches that are clearly just off the plate. JD Drew had a similar at bat tonight, only Rivera missed on one pitch so it was a 4 pitch K. It happens from time to time against a guy with such sick command who also has a bigger strike zone than pretty much every pitcher in major league baseball.

The guy who "reported" he tanked it had nothing but the feelings of himself and the person who he talked to in the Red Sox organization to base this off. Let's keep in mind that the people he talks to told him Manny was fined over 100K when it was actually 10-15K instead. Bob Lobel is not exactly a reliable source these days.

ccspence8
07-26-2008, 03:32 AM
Since when is Bob Lobell a source? :p


All I know is we gotta make a move for either a SS or OF




Anyone think its possible we sign Furcal in the offseason?

CyYoungPapelbon
07-26-2008, 03:54 AM
Jed Lowrie will post a higher OPS than Rafael Furcal next year while making 550K or so. We are fine at short if either:
A. Theo has the balls to admit his mistake in signing Lugo and trades him while eating a lot of salary or releases him or...
B. Francona goes with Lowrie over Lugo and doesn't worry about hurt feelings.

As for an outfielder, we only need one if Manny's option is not picked up or if it's picked up but he's dealt. Otherwise, our offense is great. We are 2nd in the league in runs despite only getting 1 month of production from Ortiz so far (he's played 2, but was absolutely atrocious in April).

Ellsbury has been overrated by many Red Sox fans in my opinion, but he's still a much better player than he's shown the last 2 months. He may not be the star some thought he was, but he'll be a solid player for sure and doesn't need to be replaced this off-season.

We need a catcher if Varitek finishes out the season the way he's playing now. Words cannot explain what an awful player he is at the moment and unlike Ellsbury, he may not be a whole lot more likely to improve as he's a 36 year old catcher--it's possible he's done.

moneyball
07-26-2008, 06:39 AM
That's all I can stand and I can't stands no more........Manny to wimpy for a hamburger!

sboyajian
07-26-2008, 07:10 AM
Hello,

I never usually do these stupid blogs because I know what alot of people talk about is stupid bullsh*t...but this topic is just getting out of hand. I am sick of hearing people bash on Manny Ramirez. I hear it on sporting news radio everyday, I read it on these stupid blogs, and it just gets ridiculous. Manny has had his times where he has done some pretty stupid things, i will admit to that...BUUUUUT..........you have to realize some very important things about Manny. EVERY year he keeps putting up the same consistent numbers, year in and year out. He is an RBI machine, he is still considered one of the greatest hitters in the game today, one of the most feared hitters of today and quite frankly of all time! I mean you COULD bring in a guy like Matt Holiday and im sure he MIGHT do a decent job, but how many players has Boston brought in who were considered one of the better players in the league and have fell straight to the bottom, some players cant handle playing in Boston, they cant handle the pressure. Manny on the other hand has handled playing in Boston maybe better than any other player. He the 3rd longest active player on the Roster behind Wakefield and Varitek. He has proven year after year that he can do it in Boston and he can do it magnificently. Not only are we talking about his offense, but god damn it...he is one of the best to ever play left field at fenway park!! he can play that wall better than ANYONE in the whole league. He has his stupid moments, but he is easily one of the most UNDERRATED left fielders in the game. This is just a joke that people want to just get rid of Manny. YEEEAAAAHHHH your right we probably should get rid of him, after all he has been on the All-Star team how many times since being with the Sox. YEEEEAAAAHHHH your right, we should get rid of Manny, i would love to see him play for another team, and do what alot of players that we have gotten rid of in the past do, nothing but good for other teams, YEEEEEAAAHHH your right, we should trade Manny, i would love to see him play for another team and produce 30+ homers, and 120+ RBI's per season, oh and YEEEEAHHHH your right, we should get rid of Manny, afterall what would be better than breaking up what is easily considered the best 1-2 punch of him and Ortiz!!!


THIS IS REDICULOUS!!! lol I would take Manny on my team anyday, especially when he is still producing the numbers that he is producing!!!

AS for his knee injury, how about you guys lay the hell off of him, and lets see what the doctors say tomorrow after he gets an MRI on his knee. For all of you people who think he is faking it, how about you pay attention to Red Sox baseball and realize that they wouldnt just send him to get an MRI if he was just faking it!!! Get a friggin clue!!! :)
You are absolutely .... right. Manny is an amazing hitter, who puts up fantastic numbers year in and year out.

Imagine how much better those numbers would be if he didn't take vacations are certain points. This is one of the most important series of the season and all of a sudden he's been playing hurt for a week and not a single person knew it? Manny takes his body extremely seriously. If he was hurt he would have told the trainers immediately. He is not going to risk it.

He's been trying to prove something since he got fined. Now I think it's time for the front office to prove something to him. You do that by bringing in a big bat out fielder and when Manny is ready to play, you leave him on the bench. When he doesn't feel like we are depending on him as much he'll play better because he'll actually have something to prove the other way. Right now he's showing them they need him by either not swinging, missing the ball, not playing.

If you bring in a ringer, he'll want to prove you need him by playing the way he should be anyway. Manny is a genius at the plate with the mentality of a Jr. High kid.

lil'papi
07-26-2008, 08:13 AM
Hello,

I never usually do these stupid blogs because I know what alot of people talk about is stupid bullsh*t...but this topic is just getting out of hand. I am sick of hearing people bash on Manny Ramirez. I hear it on sporting news radio everyday, I read it on these stupid blogs, and it just gets ridiculous. Manny has had his times where he has done some pretty stupid things, i will admit to that...BUUUUUT..........you have to realize some very important things about Manny. EVERY year he keeps putting up the same consistent numbers, year in and year out. He is an RBI machine, he is still considered one of the greatest hitters in the game today, one of the most feared hitters of today and quite frankly of all time! I mean you COULD bring in a guy like Matt Holiday and im sure he MIGHT do a decent job, but how many players has Boston brought in who were considered one of the better players in the league and have fell straight to the bottom, some players cant handle playing in Boston, they cant handle the pressure. Manny on the other hand has handled playing in Boston maybe better than any other player. He the 3rd longest active player on the Roster behind Wakefield and Varitek. He has proven year after year that he can do it in Boston and he can do it magnificently. Not only are we talking about his offense, but god damn it...he is one of the best to ever play left field at fenway park!! he can play that wall better than ANYONE in the whole league. He has his stupid moments, but he is easily one of the most UNDERRATED left fielders in the game. This is just a joke that people want to just get rid of Manny. YEEEAAAAHHHH your right we probably should get rid of him, after all he has been on the All-Star team how many times since being with the Sox. YEEEEAAAAHHHH your right, we should get rid of Manny, i would love to see him play for another team, and do what alot of players that we have gotten rid of in the past do, nothing but good for other teams, YEEEEEAAAHHH your right, we should trade Manny, i would love to see him play for another team and produce 30+ homers, and 120+ RBI's per season, oh and YEEEEAHHHH your right, we should get rid of Manny, afterall what would be better than breaking up what is easily considered the best 1-2 punch of him and Ortiz!!!


THIS IS REDICULOUS!!! lol I would take Manny on my team anyday, especially when he is still producing the numbers that he is producing!!!

AS for his knee injury, how about you guys lay the hell off of him, and lets see what the doctors say tomorrow after he gets an MRI on his knee. For all of you people who think he is faking it, how about you pay attention to Red Sox baseball and realize that they wouldnt just send him to get an MRI if he was just faking it!!! Get a friggin clue!!! :)

I took an aspirin then read the post. :D


Simply not true his last two years have shown precipitous drop-offs so your lost already. He has been a great hitter , but that was a couple years back now. He is still a excellent hitter but older and it shows by his fading.

The first answer , name one? Name one of the best players in the league brought in that sucked it up. I honestly can't think of one? I know some decent players that came here and were well decent , but no flops. Ocab was ok , Bill Mueller was ok, Mike Lowell is ok. I can go on and on in fact Lowell was considered done!


Manny asked to be traded because he hated Boston. Where have you been. So if thats handling Boston he sucks at it. Sure he has hit, but he has gotten paid too.:rolleyes: Doing one stupid thing after another attimes is comical , but now its to get out of town and get his contract. Can't be anything BUT that. Boras as his agent pretty much spells it out for you.


Manny isn't anywhere near as good a LF 'er as say YAZ in fact he could not hold his jockstrap. Never mind Rice in his later years absolutely absurd to think Manny is a best LF'er.
He awful actually. No range......he is clever throwing the ball though. He plays the wall smart , no doubts. But to even mention him in the same breath as Yaz is well asinine. I'd take Greenwell over him to boot.

The last rant, let me tell this so you can understand it : HE IS THE ONE RUINING HIS CHANCES OF RETURNING , NOT THE FANS. HE IS DISRESPECTING THE OWNERS, THE GAME, THE PLAYERS, the staff.

Phew...

Ask Manny, write to his email addy ......we only see him trying to get out of Boston. He has to remember, to get a new deal. Blame him.......smell the coffee.

chomaru
07-26-2008, 12:22 PM
Jed Lowrie will post a higher OPS than Rafael Furcal next year while making 550K or so. We are fine at short if either:
A. Theo has the balls to admit his mistake in signing Lugo and trades him while eating a lot of salary or releases him or...
B. Francona goes with Lowrie over Lugo and doesn't worry about hurt feelings.




Lowrie is cheaper but you cant compare him to Furcal....unless your saying he wont be healthy next year then Id have to agree with you.

as for Manny, I was one of his biggest apologists for years and while I still love the guy its obvious a change needs to be made, hes not happy here and will only be a distraction unless he gets a fat new deal, does anyone want to be paying a 40 year old manny 15 mil a year?

I hate to say it but as Manny's numbers shrink so do my excuses for the him.

ThreeIfBaerga
07-26-2008, 12:47 PM
Holliday has this season and next season left on his contract.

And he will be on the trade market. I never said he'd be a FA.

RedSoxtober
07-26-2008, 06:03 PM
you have to realize some very important things about Manny. EVERY year he keeps putting up the same consistent numbers, year in and year out. He is an RBI machine, he is still considered one of the greatest hitters in the game today, one of the most feared hitters of today and quite frankly of all time!

Unfortunately he has not been that consistent recently. If you look at his numbers they are declining. If you project his numbers for the rest of the year, they fit right into the model of a declining hitter.

Did you ever stop to think that when so many other people notice something and you simply deny it they may not be the ones who are wrong?


he is one of the best to ever play left field at fenway park!! he can play that wall better than ANYONE in the whole league. He has his stupid moments, but he is easily one of the most UNDERRATED left fielders in the game. This is just a joke that people want to just get rid of Manny.

If you understand what things like FRAA and Rate2 mean then go look them up for Manny. He plays one of the easiest positions in the game and is below average by every objective measure.


THIS IS REDICULOUS!!! lol I would take Manny on my team anyday, especially when he is still producing the numbers that he is producing!!!

AS for his knee injury, how about you guys lay the hell off of him, and lets see what the doctors say tomorrow after he gets an MRI on his knee. For all of you people who think he is faking it, how about you pay attention to Red Sox baseball and realize that they wouldnt just send him to get an MRI if he was just faking it!!! Get a friggin clue!!! :)

As for your team, please call Epstein and work it out. I'm not sure Manny will waive his NTC to play little league though.

As for his knee injury, why is it that he shows up out of the blue and complains that it's been hurting for a week but no one knew? Why is it that the medical staff cannot find any reason for the pain in his knee?

The simple explanation as ThreeIfBaerga suggests is that they basically say, "Okay, then lets find the evidence." They have to treat it as if it exists even when they doubt that it exists.



How many 36 year old players can put up numbers that Manny is putting up?


I'm tired of demonstrating that Manny isn't the .300/30/120 guy you rant about. You obviously don't listen. For the rest who might, can any of you explain why Manny's age matters? Should we get Franco since not many 50 yr olds can hit like him?

CyYoungPapelbon
07-27-2008, 07:51 AM
I'm tired of demonstrating that Manny isn't the .300/30/120 guy you rant about. You obviously don't listen. For the rest who might, can any of you explain why Manny's age matters? Should we get Franco since not many 50 yr olds can hit like him?Manny is on pace for roughly .300/30/100 with a .400 OBP, so he's pretty damn close to the hitter he rants about.

The RBI's aren't on the same pace as usual, but I think that has to do as much with the fact that the Red Sox have had some of the worst leadoff hitting performance in baseball this year as it does with Manny. I'd imagine we'll see Manny's RBI totals get a bit better as the year goes on, if he is to remain in a Red Sox uniform, because Francona has finally moved Youk back to the top of the order over Ellsbury and his .320's OBP.

I'll agree that the age doesn't matter, but he doesn't even need to include the 36 year olds part. Not many hitters can put up the numbers Manny does, period. He's tied for 8th in the AL in HR's, 7th in OPS, 5th in OBP and has had a bunch of clutch hits for the Red Sox this year (2 huge hits in back to back games vs. MIN recently, game winning 2-run double in Japan, big hit off Mussina--in the "Girardi should've walked him" game-- to give us a lead that we held onto earlier this year. That's 4 right off the top of my head so I'd imagine there would be more if I looked hard enough).

Manny is not quite the generational hitter that he once was, but he is still great and ccspence is not really overrating him. He also proved he's a guy who can turn it up a notch once playoff time comes when he posted a .348/.508/.652/1.160 line with 4 HR's and 16 RBI's in a little over 60 plate appearances last post-season.

chomaru
07-27-2008, 09:07 AM
Im sure everyone has read this already but just in case some missed it

Take away the first 19 games of this season (after that feel-good, deeply philosophical spring) and MARz entered yesterday batting .290 with 13 home runs and 42 RBI in his past 76 games, the equivalent of about a half-season. During that same period of time, he had been outproduced by such luminaries as Adam LaRoche, Hunter Pence, James Loney, Cody Ross, David DeJesus, Bengie Molina, Jorge Cantu and even David Murphy.

lil'papi
07-27-2008, 09:19 AM
I heard Bozo say yesterday you MUST pay a player for past performances. Well thats ABSURD, not when they are 36 yrs old. (MCCarver)
Why would you pay a guy that hit .325 as a 30 yr old or 32 yr old? Stupid you pay him going forward once past prime. It's simply a FACT.

I'd pay Holliday or a Teixera because they are prime , not Manny. :rolleyes:
He is declining these guys aren't , they could be getting even better. (Holliday)

MCCarver and Morgan should both go into retirement their collective brain matter already has.....:smoking:




chomaru : Im sure everyone has read this already but just in case some missed it

Take away the first 19 games of this season (after that feel-good, deeply philosophical spring) and MARz entered yesterday batting .290 with 13 home runs and 42 RBI in his past 76 games, the equivalent of about a half-season. During that same period of time, he had been outproduced by such luminaries as Adam LaRoche, Hunter Pence, James Loney, Cody Ross, David DeJesus, Bengie Molina, Jorge Cantu and even David Murphy.

We have two guys like that ask JD. Take away his two-three week explosion and we have last year all over again.

CyYoungPapelbon
07-27-2008, 10:01 AM
Im sure everyone has read this already but just in case some missed it

Take away the first 19 games of this season (after that feel-good, deeply philosophical spring) and MARz entered yesterday batting .290 with 13 home runs and 42 RBI in his past 76 games, the equivalent of about a half-season. During that same period of time, he had been outproduced by such luminaries as Adam LaRoche, Hunter Pence, James Loney, Cody Ross, David DeJesus, Bengie Molina, Jorge Cantu and even David Murphy.If you take out a 19 game stretch where a guy rakes to the tune of an OPS over 1.100 then you can make a lot of very good hitters look mediocre. Those 19 games happened and Manny's numbers are .300/19/63 with an OBP of .400.

I could cherry pick a similar sample size for Manny, take the slumping stats out and make Manny look like he's been the best hitter in baseball. It's a dumb argument both ways.

Just found an example: Manny hit .228 with a .714 OPS in 26 games in May. He hit .333 with a 1.222 OPS in the 2 opening games in Japan to end March, .344 with a 1.010 OPS in 26 April games, .286 with a .930 OPS in 24 June games and .356 with a 1.070 OPS in 18 July games so far.

Take out those 26 games in May (where Manny was chasing 500 and one could argue it slowed his production drastically but when it's been off his mind he's been in contention for the best hitter in baseball title) and Manny has been arguably the best hitter in baseball.

chomaru
07-27-2008, 11:42 AM
If you take out a 19 game stretch where a guy rakes to the tune of an OPS over 1.100 then you can make a lot of very good hitters look mediocre. Those 19 games happened and Manny's numbers are .300/19/63 with an OBP of .400.

I could cherry pick a similar sample size for Manny, take the slumping stats out and make Manny look like he's been the best hitter in baseball. It's a dumb argument both ways.

Just found an example: Manny hit .228 with a .714 OPS in 26 games in May. He hit .333 with a 1.222 OPS in the 2 opening games in Japan to end March, .344 with a 1.010 OPS in 26 April games, .286 with a .930 OPS in 24 June games and .356 with a 1.070 OPS in 18 July games so far.

Take out those 26 games in May (where Manny was chasing 500 and one could argue it slowed his production drastically but when it's been off his mind he's been in contention for the best hitter in baseball title) and Manny has been arguably the best hitter in baseball.

but your taking numbers out of the middle of the stretch, that paragraph I pulled from this mornings herald shows a full streak of games.....a damn long streak of games.

CyYoungPapelbon
07-27-2008, 12:02 PM
but your taking numbers out of the middle of the stretch, that paragraph I pulled from this mornings herald shows a full streak of games.....a damn long streak of games.It's still the same exact amount of games (well, his slump was 7 games more), whether the stretch occured in the middle or not.

Plus, you (or the Herald, apparently) gave stats like average, RBI's and HR's and compared him to a bunch of free swingers and ignored the fact that Manny is putting up a .400 OBP while a guy like Murphy is down near .310 or something and Manny's OPS is about 150 points higher.

chomaru
07-27-2008, 12:23 PM
It's still the same exact amount of games (well, his slump was 7 games more), whether the stretch occured in the middle or not.

Plus, you (or the Herald, apparently) gave stats like average, RBI's and HR's and compared him to a bunch of free swingers and ignored the fact that Manny is putting up a .400 OBP while a guy like Murphy is down near .310 or something and Manny's OPS is about 150 points higher.



How can you say streaks arnt relevant? If you like I could edit the part about taking away games and just say in the last 76 games this is what he has done.

CyYoungPapelbon
07-28-2008, 07:18 AM
How can you say streaks arnt relevant? If you like I could edit the part about taking away games and just say in the last 76 games this is what he has done.Well, for starters, you are taking out nearly 20% of the season to this point. That's a pretty big chunk of his season so far. When you add in the fact that Manny went into a big slump until June after that near 20% of the year, everyone else you mentioned basically has had a 2 month head start on Manny in the stats department when playing this "take out this stretch" game.

Next, stats like RBI's are significantly dependent on other factors outside of a hitters control. A guy like David Murphy is hitting behind 3 MVP candidates like Ian Kinsler, Josh Hamilton and Milton Bradley and getting an absurd amount of RBI opportunities.

Manny has been in a lineup with some of the worst leadoff performance in MLB. Pedroia had an OBP around .400 those 1st 19 games as well and is down near .360 now, so he hasn't exactly done a very good job of getting on base overall either (until this recent month stretch where he is hitting like .430) in the stretch that you are talking about...so that is limiting Manny's RBI chances.

I've already showed the stats he can control like OBP and OPS and they suggest he's been absolutely amazing yet again aside from his slump in May when #500 was undoubtedly on his mind a bit.

The bottom line is that trying to imply Manny hasn't done all that much since a great first 19 games is false, and that's ignoring the fact that I don't agree with taking out stats from a certain stretch. He's been great every month but May and his overall season stats are great.

It's one thing to get on him for the off the field stuff, not going all out on the field, being a distraction, etc.---but let's not act like this guy isn't that great of a hitter: he is.

Adam LaRoche, Hunter Pence, James Loney, Cody Ross, David DeJesus, Bengie Molina, Jorge Cantu and David Murphy don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Manny Ramirez as hitters...this year or any other year.

lil'papi
07-28-2008, 09:35 AM
I hate cherry pickers too, but in BB the MOST important stat for a hitter is consistency. You become dependant on it you know what you are getting.
Take Youk he is very consistent you can't cherry pick his numbers and make him look great or horrible. When you can it shows inconsistency.
If a guy in April racked up stupid numbers then declined the rest of the season he hurts the team, but he can boast come contract time.
Stats have uses.......Manny is still a excellent hitter but not worth anywhere near 20mil. Why? his defense is terrible, he is 36 yrs old, he has to many female moments.

He has always been streaky. Back then though his streaks were much more productive and longer.

Lowell , Youk, Casey are guys that are consistent. Of course they have hot streaks and cool off but no giant extremes.

YES, Manny can rake he is a hitting savant.


I can take two weeks out of JD stats and he looks well exactly like last year. I'm sure he will rev it up again at some point.
For me I'd rather have a consistent guy.

Tankjeep
07-28-2008, 09:36 AM
Exactly. Me and you seem to be the main anti-Manny people here.


count me in too.

CyYoungPapelbon
07-28-2008, 11:40 AM
Lowell , Youk, Casey are guys that are consistent. Of course they have hot streaks and cool off but no giant extremes.Are you serious? Youkilis has a widely known couple year history of fading hugely as the season goes on and is nowhere near as consistent as Manny is. So far, Youk's been extremely consistent this year (most consistent player we have) but he needs to keep it up--something he's never been able to do.

Lowell has been far from consistent this year, too. He sucked the first 11 games, got injured, came back and hit very well for 2 months and now he's been abysmal in July. Last year was really the only recent year he was consistent from month to month.

I think you are letting perception get in the way of reality. Lowell, Casey and Youk are considered solid players who you'll rarely see controversy surrounding so it's natural to assume they are usually not great, but almost always very good and very consistent when they are no more consistent than most others. Pedroia is another real solid player who isn't surrounded by much controversy and you'll see broadcasters talk about just how solid and consistent he is when he's actually one of our most streaky hitters. He goes into his fair share of slumps, but when he gets hot, you just can't get him out.

I've already showed the stats from month to month and Manny has been an absolute beast every month but May, where he was chasing #500. He's very consistent. You don't put up the numbers Manny (or Ortiz, or any other elite hitter) does without being consistent and avoiding numerous, long slumps.

chomaru
07-29-2008, 01:58 AM
Well, for starters, you are taking out nearly 20% of the season to this point. That's a pretty big chunk of his season so far. When you add in the fact that Manny went into a big slump until June after that near 20% of the year, everyone else you mentioned basically has had a 2 month head start on Manny in the stats department when playing this "take out this stretch" game.

Next, stats like RBI's are significantly dependent on other factors outside of a hitters control. A guy like David Murphy is hitting behind 3 MVP candidates like Ian Kinsler, Josh Hamilton and Milton Bradley and getting an absurd amount of RBI opportunities.

Manny has been in a lineup with some of the worst leadoff performance in MLB. Pedroia had an OBP around .400 those 1st 19 games as well and is down near .360 now, so he hasn't exactly done a very good job of getting on base overall either (until this recent month stretch where he is hitting like .430) in the stretch that you are talking about...so that is limiting Manny's RBI chances.

I've already showed the stats he can control like OBP and OPS and they suggest he's been absolutely amazing yet again aside from his slump in May when #500 was undoubtedly on his mind a bit.

The bottom line is that trying to imply Manny hasn't done all that much since a great first 19 games is false, and that's ignoring the fact that I don't agree with taking out stats from a certain stretch. He's been great every month but May and his overall season stats are great.

It's one thing to get on him for the off the field stuff, not going all out on the field, being a distraction, etc.---but let's not act like this guy isn't that great of a hitter: he is.

Adam LaRoche, Hunter Pence, James Loney, Cody Ross, David DeJesus, Bengie Molina, Jorge Cantu and David Murphy don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Manny Ramirez as hitters...this year or any other year.

forget taking out games......in the last 76 games this is what he has done in these particular categories. I am aware of the importance of stats like obp and ops and understand he is a far superior hitter than Benji Molina. Nobody said these guys are better than Manny its just pointing out they have been more productive than him in these particular categories over a 76 game stretch.

Make no mistake about it, we would all love for Manny to be on our team and do what he does, but he wants a fat new contract and wont be happy unless he gets it.

lil'papi
07-29-2008, 09:38 AM
Are you serious? Youkilis has a widely known couple year history of fading hugely as the season goes on and is nowhere near as consistent as Manny is. So far, Youk's been extremely consistent this year (most consistent player we have) but he needs to keep it up--something he's never been able to do.
Lowell has been far from consistent this year, too. He sucked the first 11 games, got injured, came back and hit very well for 2 months and now he's been abysmal in July. Last year was really the only recent year he was consistent from month to month.

You are making a month to month as a consistency basis point. I'm talking about stretches of games. No perception problems. Consistency also means showing up to play.


I think you are letting perception get in the way of reality. Lowell, Casey and Youk are considered solid players who you'll rarely see controversy surrounding so it's natural to assume they are usually not great, but almost always very good and very consistent when they are no more consistent than most others.

HUH?

Pedroia is another real solid player who isn't surrounded by much controversy and you'll see broadcasters talk about just how solid and consistent he is when he's actually one of our most streaky hitters. He goes into his fair share of slumps, but when he gets hot, you just can't get him out.

EVERY player has ups and downs , please!

Manny took five weeks off one year because we as a team were struggling! He simply can hit when he feels like. Being consistent is alot more than month to month.

I've already showed the stats from month to month and Manny has been an absolute beast every month but May, where he was chasing #500. He's very consistent. You don't put up the numbers Manny (or Ortiz, or any other elite hitter) does without being consistent and avoiding numerous, long slumps.
Mar april .344

May he hit what? .228?

June .286 isn't exactly a BEAST.

July now way back up.

"Lowell , Youk, Casey are guys that are consistent. Of course they have hot streaks and cool off but no giant extremes. "

Referring to JD more than Manny.

I said Manny was a SAVANT did you just miss that for arguements sake?
Manny takes off against every tough starter so he is consistent... (Volquez, Chamberlain, Hernandez,Verlander).........no show.

bagwell368
07-29-2008, 10:29 AM
It's the Boras effect. The Sox cannot excercise the option because Manny will whine all the way. I don't care to have Manny at $100 for 4 years either as quoted.

That leaves trade him, and trade him today. I would package him and a better pen arm (this year, not overall) in the pen for the best AA/AAA catcher that a contender has that will make the deal.

I do not believe the Sox have enough to win this year, particularly w/ Manny being a tool, random regulars not hitting, and the bullpen looking like crap much of the time.

It's clear they will not empty out the farm for over priced junk. It's clear that between FA and the farm they will be strong for years to come. It is also clear that after two titles, nobody is really going be put out if they dump Manny. The front office can clearly scapegoat Manny and the Ortiz's injury as the reason they didn't win. Do it.

Get that kid catcher we need
sign the best corner OF we can get in the off season
wave goodbye to Wakefield (don't need .500 pitchers anymore)
and start working on a deal to get rid of Lugo.

This is how the Pats do business, and its fine w/ me.

RedSoxtober
07-29-2008, 12:19 PM
Are you serious? Youkilis has a widely known couple year history of fading hugely as the season goes on and is nowhere near as consistent as Manny is. So far, Youk's been extremely consistent this year (most consistent player we have) but he needs to keep it up--something he's never been able to do.

The case against Youk is a bit overstated. His pre-ASG/post-ASG stats do favor the first half. The gap is closing, though, and if you look at last year he actually bottomed out in July (historically his worst month every year) and then improved every month after that. The fact that he maintained his play during July should get us excited.


Lowell has been far from consistent this year, too. He sucked the first 11 games, got injured, came back and hit very well for 2 months and now he's been abysmal in July. Last year was really the only recent year he was consistent from month to month.

Talking about 11 games at the start of the season is a bit like the argument that you're trying to destroy, isn't it? If we have to go month-to-month it's a little unfair to put the screws to Lowell for April since he barely got to play it. Anyway, his .224 in July (so far) is pretty similar to Manny's .228. More importantly, since he's played regularly there's been a lower deviation in his numbers from month to month. Also, it's reasonable to argue that he's been more valuable/consistent than Manny given that he's only 5RBI behing in 10 fewer games.


I think you are letting perception get in the way of reality. Lowell, Casey and Youk are considered solid players who you'll rarely see controversy surrounding so it's natural to assume they are usually not great, but almost always very good and very consistent when they are no more consistent than most others. Pedroia is another real solid player who isn't surrounded by much controversy and you'll see broadcasters talk about just how solid and consistent he is when he's actually one of our most streaky hitters. He goes into his fair share of slumps, but when he gets hot, you just can't get him out.

That's the most bizarre argument I've heard in a long time. Out of thin air you've conjured up this group-think that has to do with a lack of controversy when it's never once been mentioned. You go to time out for that :p

Anyway, take a look at the splits before you go inventing conspiracy theories like that. Pedroia slumped in May to the tune of .260/.295/.669 but he's been over .300 every other month and his .358 in July is remarkably consistent with .356 in June. The story is almost exactly the same in 2007; except for his first full month in MLB he was a .300+ avg, .800+ ops every month. Where is the inconsistency?

Casey has been .340+ avg, ~.850+ ops every month. That's pretty damn consistent for a guy getting playing time and AB as erratically as he has. He had a pretty steady 2007, too, except for a mid-season slump.


It's the Boras effect. The Sox cannot excercise the option because Manny will whine all the way. I don't care to have Manny at $100 for 4 years either as quoted.

That leaves trade him, and trade him today. I would package him and a better pen arm (this year, not overall) in the pen for the best AA/AAA catcher that a contender has that will make the deal.

I do not believe the Sox have enough to win this year, particularly w/ Manny being a tool, random regulars not hitting, and the bullpen looking like crap much of the time.

It's clear they will not empty out the farm for over priced junk. It's clear that between FA and the farm they will be strong for years to come. It is also clear that after two titles, nobody is really going be put out if they dump Manny. The front office can clearly scapegoat Manny and the Ortiz's injury as the reason they didn't win. Do it.

Get that kid catcher we need
sign the best corner OF we can get in the off season
wave goodbye to Wakefield (don't need .500 pitchers anymore)
and start working on a deal to get rid of Lugo.

This is how the Pats do business, and its fine w/ me.

I agree with most everything but you're being totally unfair to Wakefield. He reeled off 9 quality starts in a row and got screwed with a 3-5 record. Seven of those starts were 7+ IP, 2ER or less and he took 2 losses and 2 NDs. Overall he's got 14 quality starts that 'earned' him a 4-5 record with 5 NDs. He's also been saving the BP, throwing the second most innings (in one less start) on the team and averaging the second most IP/GS.

It may well be time for Wake to move on but it has absolutely nothing to do with a .500 record (BTW, .547 over the past 5 yrs). That record is the team's record of failure on his behalf.

RedSoxtober
07-29-2008, 12:39 PM
On another front...

According to Rosenthal (:puke:), ""Once Ramirez was out, he told some teammates that he might not play 'until Kansas City' -- a series that begins a week from Monday, after the Red Sox's current nine-game homestand."

That's a good chunk of time to heal that tendinitis in his knee. Does this sound familiar to any one? Manny unable to play due to knee (patella) tendinitis (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060925&content_id=1681981&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos)?

Interesting that once Manny was threatened his knee quit bothering him, isn't it? I mean seriously, it was at one time sore enough to merit missing your prime rival (NYY), the team with the best record in MLB (LAA), and a team within earshot of the WC (OAK) and then all of a sudden he can play, make pretty good catches in the OF, and leg out doubles without any signs of pain.

The more I think about this the more it pisses me off. I want him gone.

CyYoungPapelbon
07-29-2008, 01:34 PM
The case against Youk is a bit overstated. His pre-ASG/post-ASG stats do favor the first half. The gap is closing, though, and if you look at last year he actually bottomed out in July (historically his worst month every year) and then improved every month after that. The fact that he maintained his play during July should get us excited.



Talking about 11 games at the start of the season is a bit like the argument that you're trying to destroy, isn't it? If we have to go month-to-month it's a little unfair to put the screws to Lowell for April since he barely got to play it. Anyway, his .224 in July (so far) is pretty similar to Manny's .228. More importantly, since he's played regularly there's been a lower deviation in his numbers from month to month. Also, it's reasonable to argue that he's been more valuable/consistent than Manny given that he's only 5RBI behing in 10 fewer games.



That's the most bizarre argument I've heard in a long time. Out of thin air you've conjured up this group-think that has to do with a lack of controversy when it's never once been mentioned. You go to time out for that :p

Anyway, take a look at the splits before you go inventing conspiracy theories like that. Pedroia slumped in May to the tune of .260/.295/.669 but he's been over .300 every other month and his .358 in July is remarkably consistent with .356 in June. The story is almost exactly the same in 2007; except for his first full month in MLB he was a .300+ avg, .800+ ops every month. Where is the inconsistency?

Casey has been .340+ avg, ~.850+ ops every month. That's pretty damn consistent for a guy getting playing time and AB as erratically as he has. He had a pretty steady 2007, too, except for a mid-season slump.Really long post (much longer than I wanted to make) so if you don't feel like reading it all, the bolded part is the most important...

The case against Youk really is not overstated. I think he may very well break that trend this year, but he is a .308/.400/.495 hitter in 1123 pre All-Star and .247/.352/.387 in 628 post All-Star at bats in his career. His drop off is very real and very drastic; no one is making it up or exaggerating it. He basically goes from All-Star level production (900ish OPS) to some of the worst 1B production in MLB (sub .750 OPS).

With that said, there is definitely more reason to believe it's real this year. He's been consistently a .900 OPS stud from month to month this year (low being an .886 OPS in April) where as he basically just had 1 huge month of May last year and was either a little above average or complete crap in the rest. I just don't see how anyone can argue that Youkilis is very consistent, aside from this season. He's actually usually one of the least consistent hitters we have with his massive fades as the season goes on.

I don't see how talking about 11 games at the start of the year is like the argument I'm trying to destroy at all. I'm the one who is saying it's ridiculous to take out a certain stretch of games because they all count. I only used the "taking out the slump" argument to show that if you take games, you can either make a guy look phenominal or terrible.

Chomaru took out Manny's best stretch of 19 games and said guys like Molina, Murphy, Dejesus, etc. were outproducing Manny since the 1st 19 games (in terms of RBI's and stats like that, not OBP or OPS). I took out his 27 game May worst slump and turned him back into a 1.000 OPS guy to counter his (well, the Herald's argument that he agrees with) argument and show that taking out games is pointless because you can really manipulate stats whatever way you want to make a (flawed) argument. Manny's 1st 19 games counted, as did his 27 game slump in May and as did Lowell's first 11 games of the season. I'll also disagree that Lowell has been more valuable based on having 5 more RBI's in 10 less games. That doesn't make up for the OPS difference of over 100 points in Manny's favor.

The argument to make Lowell better than Manny would be to argue Manny is terrible defensively and Lowell is great so it makes up the 100 points in OPS. I have no idea whether that's actually true since I'm not a big believer in defensive stats and I don't think the difference in D is worth 100 points in OPS, but it's certainly more valid than something like RBI's.

RBI's are dependent your teammates getting on and getting into as much as they are dependent on an individual hitter. Lowell has spent much of the year with 2 .400 OBP guys on in front of him as well as a .360 guy in Pedroia. Manny has had the same 2/3 hitters in Pedroia and Drew, but he has had a .320's OBP guy in Ellsbury instead of the .400 OBP guy in himself that Lowell gets to hit behind.

Regarding Lowell's consistency, well he's had 2 great months and 1 1/2 that have been positively brutal. Not exactly the model of consistency and definitely not as consistent as Manny--which is all that I was objecting to. 'lilpapi said "

Youk appears to be this year's version of what Lowell was last year: a hitter typically not consistent that is having a very consistent year, leading team in RBI's and a guy who usually has 2nd half drop offs (although, Lowell's aren't quite as big as Youk's) but (hopefully--still 2 months of regular season baseball to go) doesn't.

I was dead wrong on Pedroia. I didn't bother checking his splits and just went by what it seemed like to me. He usually has a 1 month stretch (April last year, May 19th to June 13th this year) where he completely sucks then makes up for it by getting basically 2 every game for a month or so.

Casey has been very consistent for the Red Sox and was not one I meant to dispute (though I haven't checked his consistency prior to becoming a Red Sox). He really needs to be getting the at bats for Varitek with the game on the line at this point.

My point was not to go up and down the Red Sox roster and talk about who is consistent and who is not. I was mainly just responding to this quote (regarding Manny and Drew) from 'lilpapi who was responding to chomaru:

We have two guys like that ask JD. Take away his two-three week explosion and we have last year all over again.If you are going to include Manny as an inconsistent hitter, you basically need to include our whole team because Manny is one of our most consistent hitters. You can't put up the numbers Manny has by having a 19 stretch game and doing little the rest of the year. He's definitely more consistent than perceived consistent/very solid players like Lowell and Youkilis and that's why at the end of the season his OPS is always near 1.000 while they are more like .800 OPS guys.

CyYoungPapelbon
07-29-2008, 01:57 PM
June .286 isn't exactly a BEAST.

I said Manny was a SAVANT did you just miss that for arguements sake?
Manny takes off against every tough starter so he is consistent... (Volquez, Chamberlain, Hernandez,Verlander).........no show.You can't look at strictly average for Manny. He's not Pedroia; his success is not reliant on hitting for average. He walks a ton, he hits for power and he drives in run. He hit .286 but he had a .394 OBP, .930 OPS and 6 homers with 17 RBI's. That is beastly production.

Just because Red Sox management worshipper Peter Gammons puts up a major anti-Manny article stating he ducks tough pitchers does not make it true. Against Volquez, he was clearly bothered badly by the hamstring. We had seen him in pain after 2 swings prior to that series. He also was pulled by Francona in the 6th inning or so of the 1st game and missed the game against Homer Bailey, who is absolutely terrible and got bombed. Anyone claiming that he was ducking Volquez is senile (Gammons qualifies) and/or has something against Manny.

Regarding Joba's 1st start, Francona was actually the one who had him sit out that game because he was slumping and having a tough time against fastballs 94 MPH or better and he thought Manny needed a day off. It turns out that Francona was right because Manny has absolutely raked since then and he has his bat speed back.

Verlander was way earlier this year and was pitching like trash at the time. His velocity was down at the time too. I don't remember why Manny was out that game (my guess is rest by Francona), but I highly doubt Manny was ducking him.

I guess possible he was ducking Felix and Joba the 2nd time, but I kinda doubt that since Manny is not lacking confidence and believes he can (and does) hit anyone. Just see his last interview to see how much confidence he has; he said something like: "the Red Sox aren't stupid, they won't deal me. They know what they got."

Here are the pitchers Manny has sat against:

Game # Not Started & Opposing Starter
21 - TEX Kason Gabbard
37 - DET Justin Verlander
40 - MIN Nick Blackburn
45 - MIL David Bush
52 - OAK Justin Duchscherer
64 - SEA Felix Hernandez
71 - CIN Edinson Volquez
72 - CIN Homer Bailey
75 - PHI Kyle Kendrick
91 - NYY Joba Chamberlain
103 - SEA Felix Hernandez
104 - NYY Joba ChamberlainI think he was ducking Kyle Kendrick, personally.

CyYoungPapelbon
07-29-2008, 02:20 PM
On another front...

According to Rosenthal (:puke:), ""Once Ramirez was out, he told some teammates that he might not play 'until Kansas City' -- a series that begins a week from Monday, after the Red Sox's current nine-game homestand."

That's a good chunk of time to heal that tendinitis in his knee. Does this sound familiar to any one? Manny unable to play due to knee (patella) tendinitis (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060925&content_id=1681981&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos)?

Interesting that once Manny was threatened his knee quit bothering him, isn't it? I mean seriously, it was at one time sore enough to merit missing your prime rival (NYY), the team with the best record in MLB (LAA), and a team within earshot of the WC (OAK) and then all of a sudden he can play, make pretty good catches in the OF, and leg out doubles without any signs of pain.

The more I think about this the more it pisses me off. I want him gone.A few things: That quote is "might not". Hardly a done deal that he wouldn't have played until KC and it's a little bit of a contradiction by Rosenthal to go on about how unstable Manny currently is and then actually lend credence to his possible, but not certain timetable for when he told teammates he may return.

Another teammate, Julio Lugo, says Manny has told him he's been hurt for a while:

"He says he's hurting, he's hurting. Nobody knows. Sometimes you've got tendinitis in your knee and it doesn't show anything. But if you're hurting, you're hurting. I can't say anything. I know Manny, he plays every day. He's been hurt for a while. They ask me the same thing, 'Is he hurt?' I'm like, 'He tells me that he's hurting. I can't tell you that he's not hurting.' I shouldn't even be saying that. I know. I know he's been hurt for a while. If you ask me, that's what I'm going to tell you. He tells me that he's hurt and I believe him."
Could be a friend covering for Manny or it could be true and maybe he was playing hurt and waiting until Ortiz got back before taking a few days off.

I think it's obvious Manny could play through this injury, but unless he's completely making it up, I think the Red Sox would be foolish for running him out of town based on him not sucking it up and playing through pain in July.

Now if he completely made it up and he's quitting on his team because he wants to become a free agent, I can understand why they wouldn't want him on the team.

I also don't think the Jack McCormick incident should play a role in whether Manny is or isn't brought back. It was definitely more of Manny being an *** hole than Manny being Manny, but whether he pushed the guy down or not--it had no impact on the Red Sox winning or losing games. They need to make decisions in order to make them the best team in Major League Baseball...not to make themselves the nicest team in Major League Baseball.

Obviously, there needs to be exceptions like no rapists, murderers or kidnappers on the team...but shovers with mood swings is not one of those exceptions.

RedSoxtober
07-29-2008, 04:10 PM
A few things: That quote is "might not". Hardly a done deal that he wouldn't have played until KC and it's a little bit of a contradiction by Rosenthal to go on about how unstable Manny currently is and then actually lend credence to his possible, but not certain timetable for when he told teammates he may return.
Huh? Where's the contradiction? If the idea is that he had a true injury and knew the medical timetable, that's BS. The club has denied knowing anything about his injury from day 1.


Another teammate, Julio Lugo, says Manny has told him he's been hurt for a while:

Could be a friend covering for Manny or it could be true and maybe he was playing hurt and waiting until Ortiz got back before taking a few days off.
It's a friend covering for a friend. Ramirez knows full well how much Francona takes heat for guys and gives them plenty of days off if they need it. If he needed the rest for an injury he would have gotten it. He's gotten it before. The reality, though, was that Francona was shocked by Manny's "I can't play" routine and not one person on the staff knew anything about it.

Sorry, this is the same injury that he claimed in 2006 and this time they're (rightly) not standing for it.


I think it's obvious Manny could play through this injury, but unless he's completely making it up, I think the Red Sox would be foolish for running him out of town based on him not sucking it up and playing through pain in July.
Hence the MRI's that would have helped detect any soft-tissue injury. Results: FO 2, Manny 0


Now if he completely made it up and he's quitting on his team because he wants to become a free agent, I can understand why they wouldn't want him on the team.

I also don't think the Jack McCormick incident should play a role in whether Manny is or isn't brought back. It was definitely more of Manny being an *** hole than Manny being Manny, but whether he pushed the guy down or not--it had no impact on the Red Sox winning or losing games. They need to make decisions in order to make them the best team in Major League Baseball...not to make themselves the nicest team in Major League Baseball.

Obviously, there needs to be exceptions like no rapists, murderers or kidnappers on the team...but shovers with mood swings is not one of those exceptions.

The McCormick incident is very relevant. Do you really think that it didn't effect the clubhouse at all? All the seams started to burst with that single incident. From Francona on down, all the guys who've covered for him have had it and it all started to show right there. You may be naive enough to think that it "had no impact on the Red Sox winning or losing games" because it didn't happen on the field but you're wrong. It effected the team and how they work together.

BTW, they're sub-.500 since it happened. Purely coincidence, though.