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Tymathee
07-22-2008, 01:45 PM
Here's what I'd do.

Send Jones back down to the minors to work on that new stance of his and work on his confidence at the plate. Let him hammer AAA pitching for a while lol.

My line up

Kemp
Pierre
Martin
Loney
Kent
Ethier
Garciaparra/Berroa
Laroche/Dewitt

yeah, i purposefullly did the RLR thing lol but i also think that loney is good in the #4 spot and putting ethier behind kent but in front of garciaparra gives us extra insurance

nme
07-22-2008, 01:48 PM
I get where you are coming from, but I put Slappy in the 8 spot. Dre's been tearing the cover off the ball as a no. 2, and let's face it, while JP is fast, he's no leadoff hitter.

Kemp
Ethier
Martin
Loney
Kent
Garciaparra
DeWitt/Laroche
JP

c2thab
07-22-2008, 01:54 PM
The only problem with that is Jones probably wouldnt accept a minor league assignment even if the Dodgers FO/coaching staff considered it. Jones is just flat out awful....he cant hit a breaking ball to save his life. Opposing pitchers dont even throw him fastballs cause they know he will swing at junk or watch it go by. Last night he had a couple 2-0, 3-1 counts and sat on a fastball, never got it and struck out. Its pretty sad when medicore pitching is throwing breaking balls behind in the count knowing they can strike him out. He might never get out of this funk! It regards to Juanito I think when he comes back he should hit 8th or 2nd. Ever since he got hurt our record has improved and I dont think its a fluke.

grizz8884
07-22-2008, 01:55 PM
Yep, Pierre in the 8 spot. Kemp is rippin' **** up as the lead-off. The Kemp-Ethier one-two punch has worked better than expected. If it ain't broke, then don't fix it!

GHGHCP
07-22-2008, 01:55 PM
Kemp
Ethier
Martin
Loney
Kent
Glassciapopup
LaRoche
Pierre

If Pierre's return benches Kemp or Ethier I'm pretty much done with the season.

LARock21
07-22-2008, 01:59 PM
yep if pierre plays over ethier/kemp im not watching them again this year and I'll start a fire Torre campaign.

c2thab
07-22-2008, 02:09 PM
Yea.....if Torre plays Juanito over either of those two he needs to have his head examined. We have been winning since we have had the Kemp-Ethier 1-2 punch! He should sit Jones for Juanito if he must play him

In_Ned_I_Trust
07-22-2008, 02:17 PM
Well they could say Jones is hurt or some bs to save face with him, tell him its a rehab assignment. But keep in mind he has only had a week with Donnie Baseball so hopefully he sees something, did you noticed Jones' stance was back to closed?

Ethier and Kemp are too hot to take out of the line up.

gagnefan38
07-22-2008, 02:20 PM
Disclaimer: Ethier is doing a fantastic job and I am in no way endorsing playing Pierre over him but if we get what we want and Andruw no longer starts Pierre should bat 2nd. Based upon the following stats from ESPN.com

AVG OBP SLG OPS

Ethier-2nd .273 .346 .434 .782
Ethier-5th .435 .552 .682 1.234


Pierre-2nd .432 .512 .486 .998
Pierre-8th .263 .364 .368 .732

BlueMouse
07-22-2008, 02:21 PM
My lineup when Pierre comes back would be:

Kemp
Ethier
Martin
Loney
Kent
Garciaparra
Jones
LaRoche/DeWitt

c2thab
07-22-2008, 02:45 PM
Disclaimer: Ethier is doing a fantastic job and I am in no way endorsing playing Pierre over him but if we get what we want and Andruw no longer starts Pierre should bat 2nd. Based upon the following stats from ESPN.com

AVG OBP SLG OPS

Ethier-2nd .273 .346 .434 .782
Ethier-5th .435 .552 .682 1.234


Pierre-2nd .432 .512 .486 .998
Pierre-8th .263 .364 .368 .732

But since the Pierre injury Ethier's stats in the 2 hole have been great:
18 GMS .312 AVG 4 HR 13 RBI 7 2B
Based on those stats I dont think there's any reason to make any changes at the top of the line-up at this point.

nme
07-22-2008, 02:48 PM
Disclaimer: Ethier is doing a fantastic job and I am in no way endorsing playing Pierre over him but if we get what we want and Andruw no longer starts Pierre should bat 2nd. Based upon the following stats from ESPN.com

AVG OBP SLG OPS

Ethier-2nd .273 .346 .434 .782
Ethier-5th .435 .552 .682 1.234


Pierre-2nd .432 .512 .486 .998
Pierre-8th .263 .364 .368 .732

Thanks for the stats. They are very compelling. The only stat that I really have looked at to suggest that Ethier should bat second is our record. However, it'd be worth experimenting with JP batting second for a little bit when he comes back, assuming that benches Jones and not Dre.

My only concern: Kemp has a fairly high SLG for a leadoff guy. If he leads off the game with a double, I feel that we have a better shot at scoring him with Dre batting next...unless Joe asks Slappy to lay down a lot more bunts.

southerndodgerf
07-22-2008, 03:18 PM
Thanks for the stats. They are very compelling. The only stat that I really have looked at to suggest that Ethier should bat second is our record. However, it'd be worth experimenting with JP batting second for a little bit when he comes back, assuming that benches Jones and not Dre.

My only concern: Kemp has a fairly high SLG for a leadoff guy. If he leads off the game with a double, I feel that we have a better shot at scoring him with Dre batting next...unless Joe asks Slappy to lay down a lot more bunts.

Slappy should have the ball on the ground anyway. Asking him to bunt should not be an issue. He has got to learn to make his speed work for him. I did not like him behind Furcal because he seems more concerned about himself than the guy on-base.

Cracka2HI!
07-22-2008, 05:01 PM
I'm one of Pierre's biggest fans, but I agree he needs to hit 8th. It's pretty obvious how much better the team is hitting wihtout him. Now if we could just get Jones out of the lineup Pierre would be a big upgrade over him, but only in the 8th spot. Kemp and Eithier are more than holding down the top of the lineup and Nomar has emerged as a factor in the 5 hole!

N.Z's #1 Dodger
07-22-2008, 05:11 PM
Disclaimer: Ethier is doing a fantastic job and I am in no way endorsing playing Pierre over him but if we get what we want and Andruw no longer starts Pierre should bat 2nd. Based upon the following stats from ESPN.com

AVG OBP SLG OPS

Ethier-2nd .273 .346 .434 .782
Ethier-5th .435 .552 .682 1.234


Pierre-2nd .432 .512 .486 .998
Pierre-8th .263 .364 .368 .732

Is that what? After 10 games played before Raffy went down or something? It would be a very small sample size anyway and in no way an accurate comparison.

N.Z's #1 Dodger
07-22-2008, 05:58 PM
My lineup when Pierre comes back would be:

Kemp
Ethier
Martin
Loney
Kent
Garciaparra
Jones
LaRoche/DeWitt

:clap:

gagnefan38
07-22-2008, 06:04 PM
Is that what? After 10 games played before Raffy went down or something? It would be a very small sample size anyway and in no way an accurate comparison.

It's not any different than the other small sampling of Ethier batting 2nd in this streak or the Dodgers improved hitting during the same period. I just like Ethier in 5th better because those stats in that position are outrageous.

THINKBLUE15
07-22-2008, 06:12 PM
Matt Kemp
Andre Ethier
Russell Martin
Jeff Kent
Nomar Garciaparra
James Loney
Andy Laroche
Juan Pierre

gagnefan38
07-22-2008, 06:15 PM
But since the Pierre injury Ethier's stats in the 2 hole have been great:
18 GMS .312 AVG 4 HR 13 RBI 7 2B
Based on those stats I dont think there's any reason to make any changes at the top of the line-up at this point.

I did some checking and the games in which Ethier got hot as you pointed out they were against the 10th, 13th and 14th ranked pitching staffs not including this series vs the Rocks. While against the Braves and D-Backs (2nd & 4th respectively) Ethier was 4 - 25 with 1 triple, 2 doubles and 1 RBI. I just found that interesting but I am obviously glad this is working.

The only arguement that I acknowledge is hard to fight is the record of the Dodgers with Kemp, Ethier 1 and 2. Otherwise batting Pierre 2nd makes more sense to me IF he comes back and starts. IMO batting 8th with the pitcher next negates his basestealing because if he's thrown out then the pitcher could conceivably lead-off the next inning which in baseball unless your CC or Owings is bad.

N.Z's #1 Dodger
07-22-2008, 06:33 PM
It's not any different than the other small sampling of Ethier batting 2nd in this streak or the Dodgers improved hitting during the same period. I just like Ethier in 5th better because those stats in that position are outrageous.

It is different because you have a larger sample to work with, for example, the entire 2007 season.

.293 avg, .331 OBP, .353 SLG with an arseload of steals. We know for a fact that follows his entire careers trend and 90% of those games we at #2 behind Raffy.

We have a small sample size of Kemp leading off, and his numbers could well be inflated. But to realistically assume Pierre's 2008 great numbers at that position will keep chuggin' along at a brilliant .350 are unrealistic. Seemed irrelevant to me.

Either way, only time will tell. Lets hope JP can positively contribute to this team on his return.

gagnefan38
07-22-2008, 06:47 PM
It is different because you have a larger sample to work with, for example, the entire 2007 season.

.293 avg, .331 OBP, .353 SLG with an arseload of steals. We know for a fact that follows his entire careers trend and 90% of those games we at #2 behind Raffy.

We have a small sample size of Kemp leading off, and his numbers could well be inflated. But to realistically assume Pierre's 2008 great numbers at that position will keep chuggin' along at a brilliant .350 are unrealistic. Seemed irrelevant to me.

Fair enough but realistically we can't expect this trend to continue with Kemp in lead-off or Ethi batting 2nd either. The fact remains Pierre would be better off batting 2nd. Dre doesn't have make-up to be a pure 2nd hitter. He's better suited to drive in runs and hit the gaps not hit behind the runner to advance him or bunt.

I just find it funny that numbers are put up that go against the general feeling of the group then it's a small sampling. Yet when Kemp in the lead-off spot stats in both record and accomplishment is pointed out it becomes a point of accentuation and constant updating. Yet it's a small sampling as well if anyone hasn't noticed. Another example with the Dodgers seemingly hitting after the arrival of Mattingly which could be coincidence or the opponents bad pitching it becomes the sole reason why we are hitting. Again a small sampling.

Sorry to sound like I am feeling persecuted, it may be the lack of sleep. :D

BlueMouse
07-22-2008, 06:58 PM
I will miss the days that we didn't have to question whether or not Pierre should start. More importantly, I will miss winning.

N.Z's #1 Dodger
07-22-2008, 07:29 PM
Fair enough but realistically we can't expect this trend to continue with Kemp in lead-off or Ethi batting 2nd either. The fact remains Pierre would be better off batting 2nd. Dre doesn't have make-up to be a pure 2nd hitter. He's better suited to drive in runs and hit the gaps not hit behind the runner to advance him or bunt.

I just find it funny that numbers are put up that go against the general feeling of the group then it's a small sampling. Yet when Kemp in the lead-off spot stats in both record and accomplishment is pointed out it becomes a point of accentuation and constant updating. Yet it's a small sampling as well if anyone hasn't noticed. Another example with the Dodgers seemingly hitting after the arrival of Mattingly which could be coincidence or the opponents bad pitching it becomes the sole reason why we are hitting. Again a small sampling.

Sorry to sound like I am feeling persecuted, it may be the lack of sleep. :D

Haha I agree. Stats are twisted in favor of some players, and mysteriously disappear with others. Basically in most cases they can be molded or excluded to benefit ones personal preference. We're all pretty much guilty of that though, for example a couple of weeks ago Kemp was branded as crap for his plummeting average, whilst at the same time, Pierre was been praised for his contributions to the team, which, included the exact same average. Kinda amusing really.

c2thab
07-22-2008, 07:34 PM
I did some checking and the games in which Ethier got hot as you pointed out they were against the 10th, 13th and 14th ranked pitching staffs not including this series vs the Rocks. While against the Braves and D-Backs (2nd & 4th respectively) Ethier was 4 - 25 with 1 triple, 2 doubles and 1 RBI. I just found that interesting but I am obviously glad this is working.

The only arguement that I acknowledge is hard to fight is the record of the Dodgers with Kemp, Ethier 1 and 2. Otherwise batting Pierre 2nd makes more sense to me IF he comes back and starts. IMO batting 8th with the pitcher next negates his basestealing because if he's thrown out then the pitcher could conceivably lead-off the next inning which in baseball unless your CC or Owings is bad.

Well against those two pitching staffs we won both series' and Ethier came through with the big hit against the D-Backs to take the lead. I guarantee if Juanito came up in that spot we wouldnt have scored that run and we would have lost that game. I understand your arguement about him hitting in the 8 spot but he would have to strictly be a bunter in the 2 hole cause he pops up way too much and doesnt get on base unless he gets a hit. All in all I think we have figured out there is not room in this line-up for him during his absense. Or better yet lets put him in Jones' 6 or 7 spot atleast he'll make contact.

Shawh
07-22-2008, 07:59 PM
Update from Tony Jackson (http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/2008/07/pierres-impendi.html)


Torre says if Pierre's rehab goes well, he will rejoin the big club either Saturday or Sunday. Joe was very non-committal on how the outfield will shake out at that point. What was interesting was that while Joe did say on the one hand that he isn't ready to sit Andruw Jones --

``It's still (too) early for me. Both Donnie (Mattingly) and (Jeff) Pentland are here working on specific things with him. It's one thing to practice, but it's a second thing to go out there and play games and try to put that into practice. I don't think he has had enough time for that yet.''

-- on the other hand, Torre didn't rule out the possibility that Andruw could find himself sitting if this keeps up much longer.

``I have seen Andre (Ethier) and Matty (Kemp) make great strides, Andre with the consistency of his at-bats and Matt seems to be getting a better feel for it right now. The thing that is great about this game is that you reserve the right to change your mind.''

nme
07-22-2008, 08:12 PM
Ah Shawh, you beat me to it.

I'm not sure I like the sound of that.

N.Z's #1 Dodger
07-22-2008, 08:19 PM
Torre is a ****ing douche.

G2BOAT
07-22-2008, 08:36 PM
When Pierre gets back just put him in the 7 or 8 spot pending on how DeWitt and LaRoche or doing and whoever is on the mound. Don't mess with what's working.
1.Kemp CF
2.Ethier RF
3.Martin C
4.Kent 2B
5.Loney 1B
6.Garciaparra SS
7.DeWitt/LaRoche 3B
8.Pierre LF
9.Pitcher

N.Z's #1 Dodger
07-22-2008, 09:01 PM
Pierre can't even get ****ing injured properly.

BigDaddyKaine
07-22-2008, 09:01 PM
Kemp
Ethier
Martin
Loney
Kent
Glassciapopup
LaRoche
Pierre

If Pierre's return benches Kemp or Ethier I'm pretty much done with the season.

there is no possible way that the dodgers are that stupid... at least i hope not... they better bench jones

or even better send jones to single A baseball so he has a chance of actually hitting a ball

i wonder if it would be possible to trade jones for the guy who got traded for 10 maple bats... probably not that would be asking for too much on our part