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JordansBulls
07-21-2008, 05:54 PM
Voting for #6 has concluded and PSD's Official #6 Player of all time is....

Larry Bird

http://www.nba.com/media/history/bird_drive_200.jpg


24.3 PPG | 10.3 RPG | 6.3 AST | .496% FG | 23.50 PER


Achievements:

12 time All-Star
3 NBA Championships
3 Time MVP
2 Time Finals MVP
9 Time All-NBA First Teamer
Rookie of the Year
Led in PER 1x



Larry Bird = 42 votes
Oscar Robertson = 22 votes
Shaquille O'Neal = 14 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 12 votes
Julius Erving = 4 vote
Tim Duncan = 3 votes
Jerry West = 2 votes
Moses Malone = 1 vote
Other = 5 votes



The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242529)
2. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243543)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244377)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245662)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246661)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247634)

Voting will now begin for the seventh greatest player of all time....

astrosmaniac
07-21-2008, 06:02 PM
Hakeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeem The Dream Olajuwon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ragun
07-21-2008, 06:05 PM
kobe should of been a top 5 IMO.

astrosmaniac
07-21-2008, 06:07 PM
kobe should of been a top 5 IMO.

:pity:

rhino17
07-21-2008, 06:10 PM
Of the available players, I will say

1) Big O
2) Hakeem
3) Kobe

GregOden#1
07-21-2008, 06:19 PM
The only way Kobe wont be voted here is if everybody votes for the same guy, I'd vote for Hakeem because he has the most right now but he doesn't deserve to be #7 so I wont.

kobe2008mvp
07-21-2008, 06:19 PM
kobe

kobe2008mvp
07-21-2008, 06:19 PM
then its big o, hakeem, then shaq

PhillyLuver
07-21-2008, 06:20 PM
O-Rob.

G2BOAT
07-21-2008, 07:10 PM
Hakeem Olajuwon right here. :pity: @ Kobe. Kobe isn't one of the top 10 greatest players of all-time, right now.

JordansBulls
07-21-2008, 07:13 PM
Since 1977, how is a player who never won as the best player on his own team going to be better than guys who have done so multiple times and that have more accolades, better numbers, etc? Also how is this same player who has been in 5 finals but yet doesn't even have a top 50 finals performance and had a top 10 worst finals performance going to voted greater than guys who have performed well in the finals on multiple occasions?

SHONIE
07-21-2008, 07:19 PM
Please people. Stop voting for Kobe.

travesy3
07-21-2008, 07:39 PM
Big O rather easily. How he isn't involved in the NBA right now is beyond me, he should be coaching somewhere, a great NBA mind, one of the best the league has ever seen. He was able to do things very few players ever will/could.

dre1990
07-21-2008, 07:39 PM
Fin ally kobe's in the polls. if he won the championship would of been in top 5. but they obviously lost so on my list he would be 7 or 8 but this PSD official id different so i voted fo the big O fo the 5th time

pebloemer
07-21-2008, 07:39 PM
Since 1977, how is a player who never won as the best player on his own team going to be better than guys who have done so multiple times and that have more accolades, better numbers, etc? Also how is this same player who has been in 5 finals but yet doesn't even have a top 50 finals performance and had a top 10 worst finals performance going to voted greater than guys who have performed well in the finals on multiple occasions?

Opinion x2

dre1990
07-21-2008, 07:47 PM
how can people be voting fo shaq over moses?

phillyphan4ever
07-21-2008, 10:21 PM
Oscar

JIDsanity
07-21-2008, 10:27 PM
then its big o, hakeem, then shaq

Ur a Kobe fan? I got mad respect for you, for not being a homer.

Raptors27
07-21-2008, 10:28 PM
Th Big O for the 4th straight time.

JIDsanity
07-21-2008, 10:28 PM
Big O

JordansBulls
07-21-2008, 10:31 PM
Ur a Kobe fan? I got mad respect for you, for not being a homer.

He has voted for Kobe in each poll. He hasn't voted for anyone else. He has only voted for Kobe or Other.

JIDsanity
07-21-2008, 10:35 PM
He has voted for Kobe in each poll. He hasn't voted for anyone else. He has only voted for Kobe or Other.

O. lol then never mind

sanfranfan1210
07-21-2008, 10:38 PM
I went with Hakeem

LAKERMANIA
07-21-2008, 11:06 PM
ok i didnt know who to vote in this poll... i had my eyes set on big O but then again he just like kobe was behind a dominant center to win a championship..so if oscar wins kobe should win the next time since oscar has 1 title and kobe has 3..

so i would vote for big o but beware kobe is next for me

JordansBulls
07-21-2008, 11:09 PM
ok i didnt know who to vote in this poll... i had my eyes set on big O but then again he just like kobe was behind a dominant center to win a championship..so if oscar wins kobe should win the next time since oscar has 1 title and kobe has 3..

so i would vote for big o but beware kobe is next for me

What about Shaq or Hakeem or Duncan? Each of them has 2-3 Finals MVP's and top 50 performances. I think they deserve it more than Kobe at this point.

PhillyLuver
07-21-2008, 11:12 PM
I got Hakeem or Shaq next time

Ramon Nivar
07-21-2008, 11:14 PM
Shaq... again..

LAKERMANIA
07-21-2008, 11:19 PM
What about Shaq or Hakeem or Duncan? Each of them has 2-3 Finals MVP's and top 50 performances. I think they deserve it more than Kobe at this point.

look i get your point but if someone like oscar is going to be voted in as 7th greatest OF ALL TIME because of his performance in the regular season and not because he was second banana to alcindor like kobe was to shaq why shouldnt he be voted in before those guys?

oh and kobe as a second banana won more thanbig o as a second banana as well

JordansBulls
07-21-2008, 11:23 PM
look i get your point but if someone like oscar is going to be voted in as 7th greatest OF ALL TIME because of his performance in the regular season and not because he was second banana to alcindor like kobe was to shaq why shouldnt he be voted in before those guys?

oh and kobe as a second banana won more thanbig o as a second banana as well


Seems fair. That is why I dont feel Oscar should be ahead of Hakeem, Shaq or Duncan because he never won as the teams best player.

I actually feel that Oscar, West, Dr J, Kobe and Havlicek are all in the next mix of guys at least for me.

marvILLous
07-21-2008, 11:40 PM
Shaq

Chronz
07-21-2008, 11:56 PM
Shaq

Chronz
07-21-2008, 11:57 PM
how can people be voting fo shaq over moses?

What?

BigEric
07-22-2008, 12:14 AM
I went with Duncan, because he is winning muliple championships in today's era. I'm not saying it was easier back in the day, but there is no way the level of competition was the same.

MoJay
07-22-2008, 01:54 AM
Big O

getyopopcornrdy
07-22-2008, 02:33 AM
kobe should of been a top 5 IMO.

"yeah you kno how i be, last week kobe cudnt do widd out me"

:clap:


shaq diesel

dawgsfan_45
07-22-2008, 03:14 AM
Kobe shouldnt be mentioned in the same sentence (besides this one) as the Big O, Hakeem The Dream, Tim Duncan, Dr. J, or Shaq

stawka
07-22-2008, 03:17 AM
Ridiculous. Just ridiculous! WTF is Kobe in the thread for? He shouldn't be in the list until we get to #10. Guys like Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan are way ahead of Kobe... not to mention Kobe has 10 votes while Jerry West has none. That goes to show that this place is overflooded with KOBE fans, not Laker fans!

kobe2008mvp
07-22-2008, 10:14 AM
shut up your just a shaq fan yo think we can't tell.

rhino17
07-22-2008, 10:25 AM
georgge mikan on the list? really?

i mean he was great for his time but in the nba today i doubt he could even be a backup

mfb_lt1birdman
07-22-2008, 10:41 AM
This is coming from a huge Kobe fan- all you kobe homers need to get a reality check. The key word here is "GREATEST". This entails legendary performances on the biggest stages. Memories and highlights and numbers that will withstand the test of time. It means completely outmatching your opponents and showing them the agony of defeat. Kobe has not yet done this to the level of so many of the NBA greats that are listed. In fact he has most recently faltered in the finals. It kinda sucks because he did have a marvelous playoffs going until he met Boston.

If this was most talented, best player sure. Kobe should be in the top 5. But until he can at least win one ring as the centerpiece in dominating fashion he is not there yet. The legends and champions need to come first. Then the other brilliant players who have had solid success such as Kobe. That said I think he should be coming up close around the #10-13 on the list with room to move up for sure.

Vidball
07-22-2008, 10:50 AM
For all of you crying about those voting for Kobe....he's the best offensive player left on the list and the best wing defender on the list as well. Stop complaining about others opinions. If this was more about RINGS and POSTSEASON play or LEGENDARY performances, people would be voting for Mikan above everybody else. The guy has 4 rings and changed basketball...literally. The NBA doubled the size of the lane because of him, brought in the shot clock because of him, and the ABA brought in the 3 pt. line because of him. He is also the reason why the NBA came up with a defensive goal tending rule.

Having said that, Kobe is NOT my next pick. I still have a couple of guys ahead of him for sure. My pick for #7 is Shaq.

lalakobe24
07-22-2008, 11:51 AM
kobe bryant but i love big o i think big o should have been number 1

KNICKSFAN
07-22-2008, 12:18 PM
kobe bryant but i love big o i think big o should have been number 1

then why dont you vote for the Big O? Anyways, its close between Oscar and Hakeem for me.

JordansBulls
07-22-2008, 12:22 PM
kobe bryant but i love big o i think big o should have been number 1

Then why aren't you voting for Big O on any of them then?

phlp_bj
07-22-2008, 01:43 PM
hey iodine did u send the trade in? check your messages. i sent u one

KNICKSFAN
07-22-2008, 02:18 PM
Then why aren't you voting for Big O on any of them then?

Cuz hes still on Kobe's nuts like the rest of the Faker, or better yet Kobe fans.


Dam I can't wait to see the day Kobe leaves LA and down goes their fanbase.

lalakobe24
07-22-2008, 02:54 PM
Cuz hes still on Kobe's nuts like the rest of the Faker, or better yet Kobe fans.


Dam I can't wait to see the day Kobe leaves LA and down goes their fanbase.

no theyll just be like the knicks

and i voted for kobe because hes isnt gonna win this one anyways so makes no dif homie:p

GregOden#1
07-22-2008, 03:09 PM
For all of you crying about those voting for Kobe....he's the best offensive player left on the list and the best wing defender on the list as well. Stop complaining about others opinions.

Oscar, Shaq, West, Baylor and Moses Malone are all better offensive players than Kobe was, peak and career taken into account. Frazier, West and Havlicek are all better perimeter defenders than he is or was at any point in his career.


If this was more about RINGS and POSTSEASON play or LEGENDARY performances, people would be voting for Mikan above everybody else. The guy has 4 rings and changed basketball...literally. The NBA doubled the size of the lane because of him, brought in the shot clock because of him, and the ABA brought in the 3 pt. line because of him. He is also the reason why the NBA came up with a defensive goal tending rule.

Check your facts most of that is wrong. First of all Mikan has 5 rings, Mikan never played in the ABA and there was no 3 point line then. The defensive goal tending rule was put in to stop Chamberlain, not Mikan.

Mikan is also not known for his playoff performances and such, he's known for overall dominant basketball and being the leagues best player for many years. The only reason he is not #1 is because of the era he played in and how difficult it is to judge it, he is the only player that is to be considered in the top 20 with that distinction, everybody else played in the modern era and dominated, so yes it all comes down to rings, playoff play and legendary performances.

Vidball
07-22-2008, 04:04 PM
Check your facts most of that is wrong. First of all Mikan has 5 rings, Mikan never played in the ABA and there was no 3 point line then. The defensive goal tending rule was put in to stop Chamberlain, not Mikan.

Mikan is also not known for his playoff performances and such, he's known for overall dominant basketball and being the leagues best player for many years. The only reason he is not #1 is because of the era he played in and how difficult it is to judge it, he is the only player that is to be considered in the top 20 with that distinction, everybody else played in the modern era and dominated, so yes it all comes down to rings, playoff play and legendary performances.

Don't mean to burst your bubble...but you have no idea what you are talking about. First off, Mikan was the commissioner of the ABA (he actually came out with the idea of the red, white & blue ball). He has 4 NBA titles (50, 52, 53, 54) and 2 NBL titles (47 and 48). He was also a BAA champ in 49. You are probably counting his BAA title, but if you are, his NBL titles should definitely count as well...they were just as legit. In one of his title games (in '49) he scored 22 points with a cast on his wrist after breaking it the game before. He actually had a couple of post-seasons where he averaged over 30 a game. I don't know why you would say he isn't known for his playoff performances.
BTW, the goaltending rule changed in the NCAA first because of Mikan...the NBA later followed.
Get your facts straight history-boy :D

Basically, I think your whole post is wrong, but since the Kobe stuff is subjective, I'll just prove you wrong on these facts that I "checked" for you :)

GregOden#1
07-22-2008, 04:34 PM
Don't mean to burst your bubble...but you have no idea what you are talking about. First off, Mikan was the commissioner of the ABA (he actually came out with the idea of the red, white & blue ball). He has 4 NBA titles (50, 52, 53, 54) and 2 NBL titles (47 and 48). He was also a BAA champ in 49. You are probably counting his BAA title, but if you are, his NBL titles should definitely count as well...they were just as legit. In one of his title games (in '49) he scored 22 points with a cast on his wrist after breaking it the game before. He actually had a couple of post-seasons where he averaged over 30 a game. I don't know why you would say he isn't known for his playoff performances.
BTW, the goaltending rule changed in the NCAA first because of Mikan...the NBA later followed.
Get your facts straight history-boy :D

Again, Mikan never played in the ABA, being commish of a league is really irrelevent, especially considering the ABA was not the first professional basketball league to put in a 3 point shot. Mikan has 5 titles, the NBA and BAA are the only ones that count, I've never heard anyone say Mikan has 4 nor 6 nor 7 titles, always 5. He was not known for his playoff performances but for his overall play, that does not mean he wasn't a good playoff performer. As for goaltending, I was 100% sure you meant NBA, as the NCAA is quite irrelevent to bring up.


Basically, I think your whole post is wrong, but since the Kobe stuff is subjective, I'll just prove you wrong on these facts that I "checked" for you :)

You should double check your facts, nothing I said was wrong ;)

LAKERMANIA
07-22-2008, 04:40 PM
Cuz hes still on Kobe's nuts like the rest of the Faker, or better yet Kobe fans.


Dam I can't wait to see the day Kobe leaves LA and down goes their fanbase.

you will have to wait a while my friend

Vidball
07-22-2008, 04:55 PM
Again, Mikan never played in the ABA, being commish of a league is really irrelevent, especially considering the ABA was not the first professional basketball league to put in a 3 point shot. Mikan has 5 titles, the NBA and BAA are the only ones that count, I've never heard anyone say Mikan has 4 nor 6 nor 7 titles, always 5. He was not known for his playoff performances but for his overall play, that does not mean he wasn't a good playoff performer. As for goaltending, I was 100% sure you meant NBA, as the NCAA is quite irrelevent to bring up.

Mikan was the first person that ever made anyone even think about a goaltending rule. NCAA created the rule directly because of Mikan. NBA just followed suit. Let me break it down for you even more--Mikan pretty much invented goaltending. Mikan was the reason the ABA adopted the 3 pt line...thats all I said...and thats correct.

BTW, do you even know what the NBL was??? Mikan was playing for the Lakers in the NBL...it was the NBA precursor. The NBL and BAA made up the NBA. He was on the same team. He was playing with the same players.

Also, how do you qualify someone as a great playoff performer? How could anyone NOT know Mikan as a great playoff performer??? He has the rings to back it up...he created the first dynasty BECAUSE he was a great playoff performer. End of story.

fresh prince
07-22-2008, 05:18 PM
Since 1977, how is a player who never won as the best player on his own team going to be better than guys who have done so multiple times and that have more accolades, better numbers, etc? Also how is this same player who has been in 5 finals but yet doesn't even have a top 50 finals performance and had a top 10 worst finals performance going to voted greater than guys who have performed well in the finals on multiple occasions?

Because you titled the thread " player" of all time not:

"who has the best finals performance of all time as the best player on his own team"

or

"Who has the best numbers of all time"

or

"Who has the most accolades of all time"

You cant judge Kobe on all of these factors because the book isn't closed on him yet. SO if you don't want Kobe to get votes...either restrict the voting to retired players or take him off the list..

My vote goes to Hakeem

BlondeBomber41
07-22-2008, 05:21 PM
Its a travesty Kobe Bryant has more votes than Tim Duncan, much less 13. Tim Duncan is the definition of everything good a franchise player should be and everything any GM in the league would want to build around. Anyone that thinks Kobe is a better player and would be picked to lead a team over a guy like Timmy D should just stop watching basketball. Its ridiculous.

fresh prince
07-22-2008, 05:24 PM
Its a travesty Kobe Bryant has more votes than Tim Duncan, much less 13. Tim Duncan is the definition of everything good a franchise player should be and everything any GM in the league would want to build around. Anyone that thinks Kobe is a better player and would be picked to lead a team over a guy like Timmy D should just stop watching basketball. Its ridiculous.

Ok Hitler... People cant have different opinions? If so they should not be allowed to watch basketball? haha man I tell ya...

Goon.Weezy
07-22-2008, 05:37 PM
kobe should of been a top 5 IMO.

Agreed.......but when Kobes career is gone he will go down as the best player of all time

BlondeBomber41
07-22-2008, 05:41 PM
Ok Hitler... People cant have different opinions? If so they should not be allowed to watch basketball? haha man I tell ya...

If your opinion is that you would rather have a SG who has never won anything as his teams best player, who has at many times been a pain in the *** to deal with, who has run off the most dominant center of our era, who has played like poo in his last two NBA Finals, and who has alot of times put his own personal agenda over his team over...

A 4 time NBA Champion, 3 Time Finals MVP, dominant post scorer, rebounder, defender and shot blocker who has never been a distraction, always been the model of consistency and professionalism, ALWAYS has his team in contention for a NBA title no matter who he has around him, always shows up in the playoffs, always puts the team first at the expense of his own numbers and always showed respect to everyone, including his coaches...

Then you are nuts my friend. I guarantee you if you asked the GM's and Owners of every NBA team who they would build around if they could get a rookie Kobe or a rookie TD, they would all say Tim Duncan.

You cant say a negative thing about Tim Duncan if you try. He is absolutely everything you could ask for from a franchise player. You dont even have to listen to those ridiculous trade rumors and rumors of him leaving San Antonio because the market isnt big enough like you do with other NBA Stars.

There is a reason why he is in his very early 30's and people already widely consider him the best PF ever over guys like Karl Malone, Kevin McHale, and Charles Barkley.

There is a reason why Kobe has been rumored in trade talks both his first couple years and in the recent years after the dynasty while its blasphemy to even post a trade rumor involving Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is on a whole another level as far as value in the NBA that Kobe can never reach unless he becomes MJ or grows 7 inches while simultaneously becoming the ultimate team player.

JordansBulls
07-22-2008, 05:46 PM
Because you titled the thread " player" of all time not:

"who has the best finals performance of all time as the best player on his own team"

or

"Who has the best numbers of all time"

or

"Who has the most accolades of all time"

You cant judge Kobe on all of these factors because the book isn't closed on him yet. SO if you don't want Kobe to get votes...either restrict the voting to retired players or take him off the list..

My vote goes to Hakeem


That's the point. How can you be the best remaining player on the list if you have never won as the teams best player when in fact other guys on that list have done so multiple times with better numbers?

Liney3506
07-22-2008, 06:01 PM
You have to go with Mr. Triple-Double himself.

Kobe? Can we stop Laker fans from voting?

fresh prince
07-22-2008, 06:14 PM
If your opinion is that you would rather have a SG who has never won anything as his teams best player, who has at many times been a pain in the *** to deal with, who has run off the most dominant center of our era, who has played like poo in his last two NBA Finals, and who has alot of times put his own personal agenda over his team over...

A 4 time NBA Champion, 3 Time Finals MVP, dominant post scorer, rebounder, defender and shot blocker who has never been a distraction, always been the model of consistency and professionalism, ALWAYS has his team in contention for a NBA title no matter who he has around him, always shows up in the playoffs, always puts the team first at the expense of his own numbers and always showed respect to everyone, including his coaches...

Then you are nuts my friend. I guarantee you if you asked the GM's and Owners of every NBA team who they would build around if they could get a rookie Kobe or a rookie TD, they would all say Tim Duncan.

You cant say a negative thing about Tim Duncan if you try. He is absolutely everything you could ask for from a franchise player. You dont even have to listen to those ridiculous trade rumors and rumors of him leaving San Antonio because the market isnt big enough like you do with other NBA Stars.

There is a reason why he is in his very early 30's and people already widely consider him the best PF ever over guys like Karl Malone, Kevin McHale, and Charles Barkley.

There is a reason why Kobe has been rumored in trade talks both his first couple years and in the recent years after the dynasty while its blasphemy to even post a trade rumor involving Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is on a whole another level as far as value in the NBA that Kobe can never reach unless he becomes MJ or grows 7 inches while simultaneously becoming the ultimate team player.

All of these are Good points! (Duncan played very poorly in the Playoffs against the Lakers and in stretches against the Hornets too) You can make a legit argument for either man as the better player. You said anyone who thinks Kobe is better should not watch basketball as if they were saying Smush Parker is better than Duncan or something!

There are a few Gm's who would take Kobe over TD..Its just a matter of preference.. But 9 times out of 10 you have to take the big man over a SG any day..Its just easier to build a team that way..

Calling anyone who doesn't think like you nuts is over the top.and really an archaic way of thinking. Obviously you have personal beef with Kobe and thats cool. You are a product of media sensationalism.

" Kobe ran Shaq out of town" ...that is what anyone without a pulse on the situation has been led to believe. But after Shaq cussed out his boss (DR. Buss) in a pre season game he was already out of the door. and thankfully so.

None of that matters anyway.. on the floor Kobe will go down as one of the all time greats. Whether you like it or not. But yes TD IS THE BEST PF of all time and I would rather start a franchise with Tim Duncan over Kobe..but thats not what were talking about here.

fresh prince
07-22-2008, 06:19 PM
That's the point. How can you be the best remaining player on the list if you have never won as the teams best player when in fact other guys on that list have done so multiple times with better numbers?


The majority of the other guys on the list are either done playing or are past their prime. Kobe is 29 years old

and

I never said he was the best remaining player on the list. I voted for Hakeem and would probably take Oscar Robertson next. But you make it sound like its absurd to vote for Kobe... he's on the same level

yaowowrocket11
07-22-2008, 06:25 PM
Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon

GregOden#1
07-22-2008, 06:36 PM
Mikan was the first person that ever made anyone even think about a goaltending rule. NCAA created the rule directly because of Mikan. NBA just followed suit. Let me break it down for you even more--Mikan pretty much invented goaltending.

You said, and I quote "He is also the reason why the NBA came up with a defensive goal tending rule.", which is false.


Mikan was the reason the ABA adopted the 3 pt line...thats all I said...and thats correct.

It seemed like a logical fallacy to even bring it up.


BTW, do you even know what the NBL was??? Mikan was playing for the Lakers in the NBL...it was the NBA precursor. The NBL and BAA made up the NBA. He was on the same team. He was playing with the same players.
The NBL was absorbed by the BAA, not the other way around. That is why only 6 teams survived the merger, Mikans Lakers leaving the NBL earlier and joining the more competitive BAA. It isn't like when the ABA and NBA merged, and you dont usually count championships won during the NBL, that's why I've never heard anyone say that Mikan has 7 titles.


Also, how do you qualify someone as a great playoff performer? How could anyone NOT know Mikan as a great playoff performer??? He has the rings to back it up...he created the first dynasty BECAUSE he was a great playoff performer. End of story.

Reread what I said.

Vidball
07-22-2008, 07:14 PM
^^^All nitpicking...everything I said was correct. Now you are just trying to twist words so you don't look as foolish. Is that the best you can do?
Anyways, the best 2 teams in the NBA came from the NBL. Mikan also put up better numbers in the "more competitive" NBA than he did in the NBL.
Also, concerning what you said about Mikan's postseason career:

Mikan is also not known for his playoff performances

He was not known for his playoff performances
From his titles to his Finals game he played with a cast on, to the series he played with a fractured leg, he was known for his playoff performances to people with a knowledge of the game. Has any player ever won so many titles and not been known for their playoff performances? In the playoffs he averaged 30ppg on his way to a title in '49, 31ppg on his way to a title in '50, he averaged 24 and 16 in the playoffs, averaged 20 and 15 on his way to a title the following year, etc, etc etc. In 1951 he didn't win a title because he had a broken leg...he played in the playoffs with the broken leg and averaged 24ppg--he couldn't even run...he hopped down the court. How can you say he wasn't known for his playoff performances??????? You have NO CLUE what you are talking about! Basketball didn't start in the 60's...just because you don't know about Mikan's game doesn't mean he wasn't known as a playoff performer. GregOden#1...this is either where you admit you are wrong, or you make up some lame excuse. Can you imagine somebody trying to play a series with a broken leg??? Can you imagine someone averaging 24 with his busted leg? How can Mikan not be know by that performance by ANYONE who knows the history of the NBA's almost 6 decades of history?
I'm sure you'll mastermind some half-witted response or twist my words so you can continue to think of yourself as the resident history-buff. Fact is, you're just wrong.

BlondeBomber41
07-22-2008, 07:40 PM
All of these are Good points! (Duncan played very poorly in the Playoffs against the Lakers and in stretches against the Hornets too) You can make a legit argument for either man as the better player. You said anyone who thinks Kobe is better should not watch basketball as if they were saying Smush Parker is better than Duncan or something!

There are a few Gm's who would take Kobe over TD..Its just a matter of preference.. But 9 times out of 10 you have to take the big man over a SG any day..Its just easier to build a team that way..

Calling anyone who doesn't think like you nuts is over the top.and really an archaic way of thinking. Obviously you have personal beef with Kobe and thats cool. You are a product of media sensationalism.

" Kobe ran Shaq out of town" ...that is what anyone without a pulse on the situation has been led to believe. But after Shaq cussed out his boss (DR. Buss) in a pre season game he was already out of the door. and thankfully so.

None of that matters anyway.. on the floor Kobe will go down as one of the all time greats. Whether you like it or not. But yes TD IS THE BEST PF of all time and I would rather start a franchise with Tim Duncan over Kobe..but thats not what were talking about here.

Product of the media? He PUBLICLY feuded with Shaq, which ultimately led to Shaq asking out of LA. Dont you find it funny that Shaq has had a pretty good sidekick or two on every team he has played with (Penny,Kobe,Wade,Amare/Nash) and only Kobe seemed to not be able to get along with Shaq?

I would literally bet my life that if you polled all NBA GM's, at least 90%, if not more, would say they would take Tim Duncan over Kobe Bryant if building a team. The GM's that say they would rather have Kobe would be the GM's more worried about ticket sales than winning titles.

I never said Kobe wasnt one of the all time greats, I just say anyone using real basketball knowledge on what it takes to win NBA Championships would take Tim Duncan over Kobe Bryant anyday. Not only Duncan, but also Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal and to a lesser extent David Robinson.

You said anyone could make a legitimate arguement that Kobe Bryant is a better all time player than Tim Duncan. I would love to hear it. Dont give me weak stats like Points Per Game either, scorers come and go in this league. Maybe not on the level of Kobe, but for every dominant 2 way big man like Duncan there are 100 25+ PPG scorers.

fresh prince
07-22-2008, 08:18 PM
No need to re- hash the whole who drove who out of town argument its old news..Your mind is made up. No need to change it. But alot of people (Shaq included (http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/Tom7/2007/05/30/Shaq_agrees_Kobe_didnt_run_me_out_of_LA_Jerry_Buss _did) ) are well aware that Buss was not going to give Shaq the money he was demanding and is making now.

News Flash: Shaq beefed with Penny, and Wade recently.. Nash and Amare wont be competitive enough with Shaq to be relevant and shouldn't have anything to argue over so that's a non issue.

2You cant really compare stats when comparing big men to wing players since they specialize in different things. So my only comparison will be this:

Tim Duncan is a top 3 (#1 in my opinion) Power forward of all time

and Kobe Bryant is a top 3 (#2 in my opinion) Shooting guard of all time

Also in 2001 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2001/playoffs/news/2001/05/19/lakers_spurs_ap/), 2002 (http://www.lakersuniverse.com/playoffs/playoffs02lakersspurs.htm#lakersspurs4),2004 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=240511013), and 2008 Kobe was the best player on the Lakers head to head against Duncan's Spurs. He played better than Shaq in those series in the early millennium and his performances in those series led Shaq to say:""I told Kobe he was my Idol...I think he's the best player in the league. By far." In 2001

and then in 2004 to say: "I don't see how he does it," O'Neal said. "He's a fabulous player, probably the best player that ever played the game, especially with all the stuff he's been going through. And it was a fabulous night for him, a memorable night."

and obviously he was sick head to head vs. Duncan in this past years playoffs. So head to head Kobe has been better than Duncan in the Playoffs as he's led his team to more series wins 4- 2

BlondeBomber41
07-22-2008, 08:42 PM
How can you make a head to head comparison of Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan from when their teams played? Its not like they guarded each other...

Shaq never beefed with Penny, nothing serious at least. Shaq never beefed with Dwyane Wade, never once did I hear a unkind word between either of them. To say Nash/Amare wont be competitive enough is silly, with a couple tweaks they will be right there again next year winning 55+ games and at the very least going into a long series with another contender.

Yes Duncan is the best PF of all time, and Kobe is the one of the best SG's of all time. That doesnt mean they are on the same level. John Stockton is one of the best PG's of all time, but I dont see you ranking Stockton with Kobe and Duncan.

Duncan is on a whole another level of dominance and and importance that only Michael Jordan has seen as a shooting guard. Unless the second coming of MJ comes around, another SG will never be on the level of a dominant big man like Tim Duncan.

fresh prince
07-22-2008, 08:49 PM
How can you make a head to head comparison of Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan from when their teams played? Its not like they guarded each other...

Shaq never beefed with Penny, nothing serious at least. Shaq never beefed with Dwyane Wade, never once did I hear a unkind word between either of them. To say Nash/Amare wont be competitive enough is silly, with a couple tweaks they will be right there again next year winning 55+ games and at the very least going into a long series with another contender.

Yes Duncan is the best PF of all time, and Kobe is the one of the best SG's of all time. That doesnt mean they are on the same level. John Stockton is one of the best PG's of all time, but I dont see you ranking Stockton with Kobe and Duncan.

Duncan is on a whole another level of dominance and and importance that only Michael Jordan has seen as a shooting guard. Unless the second coming of MJ comes around, another SG will never be on the level of a dominant big man like Tim Duncan.

Kobe and Duncan have met 6 times in the post season. 4 of the 6 times they met. Kobe has been the best player in the series. and led his team to victory.

Thats a large enough sample size that someone could make an argument for Kobe being better than Duncan.. I'm not even making that argument. Im just saying the way you dismissed it as crazy and whoever thinks that shouldn't watch basketball is ridiculous.

Stockton has 0 rings otherwise he would be on their level as well

GregOden#1
07-22-2008, 08:59 PM
.

I dont usually do this because it is a huge waste of time arguing with someone who a) doesn't know jack about basketball and b) doesn't know jack about debating, but I'l do this anyway because you are just that big of an annoyance.

1. You claimed The "NBA....brought in the shot clock because of him". False and Misleading. The shot clock was brought in 4 years after the game you claimed was the reason the rule was put in, AND it happened the year after Mikan retired. Arguing that a player was responsible for the biggest rule change in NBA history because of a single game he had a very small part in makes no sense whatsoever. Attributing that to Mikan is a fallacy, incorrect, and misleading.

2. You claim that "and the ABA brought in the 3 pt. line because of him". Misleading. George Mikan never played in ABA. He was commish when the ABA decided to use the 3 point line, which mind you was not even the first professional league to use it. YOU make it sound as if it is some accomplishment he did during his playing career. This is a thread about the greatest players ever, what a player did after his career was over should and has no bearing on how the voting should be, making it irrelevent.

3. You claim that "The guy has 4 rings" and then later "He has 4 NBA titles (50, 52, 53, 54) and 2 NBL titles (47 and 48). He was also a BAA champ in 49" making 6 or 7 total. Misleading. If Mikan had 7 titles then the Lakers would have 16 titles total, but they only have 14. 3 from 00-03, 5 in the 80s, 1 in 72, and 5 in the BAA/NBA. 14 total, not 15, not 16. 14. NBL doesn't count, and its misleading to claim they do, its also misleading to claim he has 4 titles when he won a fifth in the BAA.

4. You claim that I said Mikan was not a good playoff performer. False. I said that Mikan was known as an overall dominant player, never did I say he wasn't a good playoff performer, he just wasn't known for it. Reggie Miller is known as a good playoff performer, as he performed better in the playoffs than in the regular season. Mikan played equally well in the regular season as he did in the playoffs, and that is why he is known as an overall dominant player. That's all I said, and no amount of rewriting what I posted will change that, so its a fallacy (read: Strawman argument) for you to keep going on about this.

5. You claim that "Basketball didn't start in the 60's". I dont know what to call that exactly, doesn't really make sense that YOU'd say that. For one, the only reason you brought up Mikan was because YOU think that Mikan has a resume that would put him at #1, and to some extent, he does, but if that were the case why didn't you vote for him at #1? Is it because you also think the time that he played in was weaker overall than in the 60s+ era? I dont follow the logic. Nor do I see how what I said was false. Mikan played in the dead-ball era where he was easily the tallest player in the league (at only 6-10 barefoot!!) and played in a segregated league, judging what he accomplished is incredibly difficult because of those factors.

There was one thing I was wrong about, and that was the defensive goaltending rule. I was wrong to attribute it to Chamberlain in 58, as it was the offensive goaltending rule then. However, calling the rule a result of Mikan's defensive play is a bit farfetched, as there were players that could jump high enough to goaltend (include his teammate, the Kangaroo Kid).

Manny Paplfavre
07-22-2008, 09:08 PM
Big O, definitely

BosoxPapi61
07-22-2008, 09:09 PM
Where's Lebron????

Iodine
07-22-2008, 09:15 PM
Where's Lebron????

Please tell me your kidding

Vidball
07-22-2008, 09:18 PM
GregOden...just as I thought...twisting words, making up crap, and not truly responding to one thing I said...and again, to quote YOUR EXACT WORDS: "He was not known for his playoff performances"...if you truly think that, you know NOTHING about his history or the history of the game before 1960.

Let me repeat: From his titles to his Finals game he played with a cast on, to the series he played with a fractured leg, he was known for his playoff performances to people with a knowledge of the game. Has any player ever won so many titles and not been known for their playoff performances? In the playoffs he averaged 30ppg on his way to a title in '49, 31ppg on his way to a title in '50, he averaged 24 and 16 in the playoffs, averaged 20 and 15 on his way to a title the following year, etc, etc etc. In 1951 he didn't win a title because he had a broken leg...he played in the playoffs with the broken leg and averaged 24ppg--he couldn't even run...he hopped down the court. How can you say he wasn't known for his playoff performances??????? You have NO CLUE what you are talking about!

The main thing he was know for were his playoff performances. You know nothing about him.

GregOden#1
07-22-2008, 09:27 PM
GregOden...just as I thought...twisting words, making up crap, and not truly responding to one thing I said...and again, to quote YOUR EXACT WORDS: "He was not known for his playoff performances"...if you truly think that, you know NOTHING about his history or the history of the game before 1960.

Let me repeat: From his titles to his Finals game he played with a cast on, to the series he played with a fractured leg, he was known for his playoff performances to people with a knowledge of the game. Has any player ever won so many titles and not been known for their playoff performances? In the playoffs he averaged 30ppg on his way to a title in '49, 31ppg on his way to a title in '50, he averaged 24 and 16 in the playoffs, averaged 20 and 15 on his way to a title the following year, etc, etc etc. In 1951 he didn't win a title because he had a broken leg...he played in the playoffs with the broken leg and averaged 24ppg--he couldn't even run...he hopped down the court. How can you say he wasn't known for his playoff performances??????? You have NO CLUE what you are talking about!

The main thing he was know for were his playoff performances. You know nothing about him.

If you say so bud ;), not much left I can say other than what I have already said, if you want you can reread my last post, specifically #4.

OaklandsFinest
07-22-2008, 09:29 PM
Shaq!! The only big man who should be before Shaq is Bill Russell and thats because of 11 rings in 13 years. Shaq was the ONLY player in NBA history who no one person could guard. 4 rings in 6 nba finals apperences. he is the #7. I think Big O should be higher on the list.

BlondeBomber41
07-22-2008, 09:32 PM
Kobe and Duncan have met 6 times in the post season. 4 of the 6 times they met. Kobe has been the best player in the series. and led his team to victory.

Thats a large enough sample size that someone could make an argument for Kobe being better than Duncan.. I'm not even making that argument. Im just saying the way you dismissed it as crazy and whoever thinks that shouldn't watch basketball is ridiculous.

Stockton has 0 rings otherwise he would be on their level as well

Kobe Bryant was not the best player in those series. He may of scored the most points, which I dont even know because I havent looked it up, but he was never the best player.

Tim Duncan's worth isnt about stats, even though he puts up great ones. Its about presence, and intangibles. You will never hear about Tim Duncan taking questionable shots, or being selfish in a game, or forcing the issue. If Tim Duncan wanted to he could easily put up comparable offensive numbers to Tim Duncan, He puts up 20 a game and doesnt force a thing. His only criticism is that he is too unselfish.

So comparing stats in games the Lakers played the Spurs proves nothing. Tim Duncan is so much more than stats...

Vidball
07-22-2008, 09:42 PM
I dont usually do this because it is a huge waste of time arguing with someone who a) doesn't know jack about basketball and b) doesn't know jack about debating, but I'l do this anyway because you are just that big of an annoyance.

Well, so far I've proved to everyone on this board that you are just talking out of your butt. I'll continue to make you look foolish now.


1. You claimed The "NBA....brought in the shot clock because of him". False and Misleading. The shot clock was brought in 4 years after the game you claimed was the reason the rule was put in, AND it happened the year after Mikan retired. Arguing that a player was responsible for the biggest rule change in NBA history because of a single game he had a very small part in makes no sense whatsoever. Attributing that to Mikan is a fallacy, incorrect, and misleading.

First of all, you are saying that I think the 24-second clock had to do with a single game. I didn't. That single game which you said Mikan "had a very small part in"--probably the 2nd dumbest thing you've said--changed the way defenses played against the Lakers. When teams faced the Lakers or got leads, they began to hold the ball. That one game was the start of a new defensive tactic...a defense created to stop Mikan. It slowed down the game, and the NBA changed the rule because of it. Changing a rule for one player doesn't usually happen (an exception was the lane changing from 6' to 12'...thats known as the Mikan Rule), but Mikan had a bigger role than anybody else in the stall defense and in the subsequent shot clock.


2. You claim that "and the ABA brought in the 3 pt. line because of him". Misleading. George Mikan never played in ABA. He was commish when the ABA decided to use the 3 point line, which mind you was not even the first professional league to use it. YOU make it sound as if it is some accomplishment he did during his playing career. This is a thread about the greatest players ever, what a player did after his career was over should and has no bearing on how the voting should be, making it irrelevent.

Mikan was Commissioner of the ABA and made the decision to introduce the 3-pt line. How can you not get that? It's simple. There was a different league (I would hardly call it a professional league though...they only survived for a year and a half) that experimented with the 3 pt line in the early 60's..thats where Mikan got the idea from.


3. You claim that "The guy has 4 rings" and then later "He has 4 NBA titles (50, 52, 53, 54) and 2 NBL titles (47 and 48). He was also a BAA champ in 49" making 6 or 7 total. Misleading. If Mikan had 7 titles then the Lakers would have 16 titles total, but they only have 14. 3 from 00-03, 5 in the 80s, 1 in 72, and 5 in the BAA/NBA. 14 total, not 15, not 16. 14. NBL doesn't count, and its misleading to claim they do, its also misleading to claim he has 4 titles when he won a fifth in the BAA.

Like I said, he has 4 titles in the NBA, 1 in the BAA, and 1 in the NBL. It's that simple. Mikan was ALWAYS insulted when he wasn't given credit for the 7 titles, but I used the #4 just so pricks wouldn't complain that he only got 4 from the NBA. His biggest competition came from Syracuse in the NBL and in the first years of the NBA.


4. You claim that I said Mikan was not a good playoff performer. False. I said that Mikan was known as an overall dominant player, never did I say he wasn't a good playoff performer, he just wasn't known for it. Reggie Miller is known as a good playoff performer, as he performed better in the playoffs than in the regular season. Mikan played equally well in the regular season as he did in the playoffs, and that is why he is known as an overall dominant player. That's all I said, and no amount of rewriting what I posted will change that, so its a fallacy (read: Strawman argument) for you to keep going on about this.

No, see my previous post...i quoted exactly what you said. I didn't claim anything. If you don't think Mikan was known for his playoff performances you have NO CLUE about the mans game.


5. You claim that "Basketball didn't start in the 60's". I dont know what to call that exactly, doesn't really make sense that YOU'd say that. For one, the only reason you brought up Mikan was because YOU think that Mikan has a resume that would put him at #1, and to some extent, he does, but if that were the case why didn't you vote for him at #1? Is it because you also think the time that he played in was weaker overall than in the 60s+ era? I dont follow the logic. Nor do I see how what I said was false. Mikan played in the dead-ball era where he was easily the tallest player in the league (at only 6-10 barefoot!!) and played in a segregated league, judging what he accomplished is incredibly difficult because of those factors.

When did I say Mikan is #1 in my book? Thats just another flat out lie by you. I voted for MJ as #1 and I have a few others ahead of him as well...I haven't even voted for him yet in this poll. Mikan played in the dead-ball era specifically because it was the only way to win against Mikan...it was a defense created to combat Mikan.


There was one thing I was wrong about, and that was the defensive goaltending rule. I was wrong to attribute it to Chamberlain in 58, as it was the offensive goaltending rule then. However, calling the rule a result of Mikan's defensive play is a bit farfetched, as there were players that could jump high enough to goaltend (include his teammate, the Kangaroo Kid).

The first step is always the hardest...at least you admitted you were wrong about something.

GregOden#1
07-22-2008, 09:54 PM
.

Wow reread my post, everything was already responded to, you're just repeating yourself like an 8 year old trying to get out of an argument.

The only thing I'm even going to bother responding to is your new claim that the slowed down offense was created to stop Mikan. That's false. Pretty clear why. The second a team took the lead it could and usually did stall the ball for the entire game. The shot clock raised the average PPG by around 15 in its first year, teams did it all the time. Case in point it wasn't because of one game that one player had a small part in that the rule was added, its asinine to claim it was.

BaRRySandAmaN
07-22-2008, 10:24 PM
I would take Oscar Robertson over Hakeem. But #8 Should be Hakeem.

Also Kobe isnt a top 10 ALL TIME Player yet.... Could get there but has a mountain still to climb IMO.

Chronz
07-22-2008, 11:03 PM
So many injustices playing out in this thread, Kobe better than Shaq or Duncan, HELL NO. Kobe was never the best player when Shaq was around, Mikan did change the game in many ways but any dominant bigman wouldve in basketballs infant stages.

Why does what Mikan accomplish as a commish have anything to do with this, and he shouldnt be in the top 20. He was the greatest player in the first half of the century that will forever be his calling card. But the game wasnt ready to be judged back then, not in comparison with the current competitors.

fresh prince
07-23-2008, 02:39 AM
So many injustices playing out in this thread, Kobe better than Shaq or Duncan, HELL NO. Kobe was never the best player when Shaq was around, Mikan did change the game in many ways but any dominant bigman wouldve in basketballs infant stages.
.

Against the Spurs Kobe was the best player on the floor..The MVP of those series every year..Kobe Byant was The main reason we beat them.. Check your facts..

2001
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2001/playoffs/news/2001/05/19/lakers_spurs_ap/


2002
http://www.lakersuniverse.com/playoffs/playoffs02lakersspurs.htm#lakersspurs4

2004
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=240511013

GregOden#1
07-23-2008, 02:47 AM
Mikan did change the game in many ways but any dominant bigman wouldve in basketballs infant stages.

Why does what Mikan accomplish as a commish have anything to do with this, and he shouldnt be in the top 20. He was the greatest player in the first half of the century that will forever be his calling card. But the game wasnt ready to be judged back then, not in comparison with the current competitors.

I agree with you to some extent, just dont go putting the same lock on late 50s basketball, because in everyway it was different and in many ways superior to todays game (regardless of what you think, the difference was small at worst no matter which side you argue on).

Another thing I will say that will most likely fall onto deaf ears is that Hakeem is once again being massively overrated. People get infatuated with his two successful playoff runs, as if his entire career was like that. Same goes for Oscar Robertson, people are obsessed with his inflated stats. Yes, Oscar played on a terrible team that hated him for most of his career, but Oscar was a jerk of a teammate. He bullied everyone because he could not live with the fact that not everyone was as commited to winning as he was. In alot of ways he's like Michael Jordan, same personality, same skill-level, but unlike Jordan, Oscar played in a segregated city where he was the constant target of racism. He coudn't bully people like Jordan could, because nobody in that time was going to let a black man bully them. Would Oscar have done better today? Probably. But you dont compare him to others based on what he would have done in modern times, you base them on what he did in his era, and he was not as successful as his stats show.

Two players are being underrated vastly, Jerry West, and Julius Erving. I said I'd make a post explaining how underrated they are but I havent the time and really I dont feel like I have the effort. I've always said public polls comprised of people who nothing of the subject is a bad way of figuring out the right answer. Asking people who the best basketball players ever is alot like asking people what the answer to Zeno's paradox' are. Neither really have an answer, but the general public wont be able to have any meaningful discussion on what the possible answers are. I guess you could say I think the best political system is an oligarchy, but I guess that's for another topic. As far as this one goes, I will always maintain that it is a waste of time, and so far my opinion has not changed.

Vidball
07-23-2008, 02:52 AM
it wasn't because of one game that one player had a small part in that the rule was added, its asinine to claim it was.

You accuse me of repeating the same argument...lol. I shoot down 90% of what you say and you just cling to that last 10%.

Anyways, again it wasn't because of 1 game. That one game is just the most drastic example and it was the reverse-catalyst that slowed down the league. and to say Mikan had a small part in that game (for a second time) is just plain stupid. Polish up on your history GO...Mikan presence is the reason that game went the way it did.

Also, to say he wasn't known as a playoff performer just because he numbers in the regular season and playoffs were about the same--I guess logic could be used for Bird and Magic because their #'s were the same too. Are they not playoff performers?

Idiotic argument...the titles and the legendary games (already stated) were the reason he was known as a great playoff performer.

GregOden#1
07-23-2008, 03:12 AM
You accuse me of repeating the same argument...lol. I shoot down 90% of what you say and you just cling to that last 10%.
You have the situations reversed. I started by shooting down what you said, then you half-assed a rebuttal throwing in just enough insults to get me to write a long post that tore all your arguments to shreds, now it is you who repeats the same things hoping that you'll end up with the last word, thinking it will win you the argument. Well have the last word if you want it, but you lost the argument.

The GEEEEE Men
07-23-2008, 03:20 AM
how is Bob Cousy not on this list.. guy led league in assists 8 years in a row, 13 time all-star, 6 rings and an MVP award.. he also revolutionized the way people played with his dribbling and ball handling skills.. I voted other for "The Cooz"

Chronz
07-23-2008, 03:37 AM
Against the Spurs Kobe was the best player on the floor..The MVP of those series every year..Kobe Byant was The main reason we beat them.. Check your facts..

2001
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2001/playoffs/news/2001/05/19/lakers_spurs_ap/


2002
http://www.lakersuniverse.com/playoffs/playoffs02lakersspurs.htm#lakersspurs4

2004
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=240511013

The main reason they won was because of Shaq I dont know what your links were suppose to prove, everything was built on Shaqs utter domination against the best bigman tandem in the league.

I dont know what your links are suppose to prove but if your trying to make a point at least have the intelligence to make it yourself.

Chronz
07-23-2008, 03:42 AM
I agree with you to some extent, just dont go putting the same lock on late 50s basketball, because in everyway it was different and in many ways superior to todays game (regardless of what you think, the difference was small at worst no matter which side you argue on).
Depends on how early your talking, Ill take a the words straight from Tex's mouth, could you imagine Shaq with that lane, GAME OVER. It was much easier for bigmen to dominate in the early stages of the game. Over time its become more of a spread out game.


Another thing I will say that will most likely fall onto deaf ears is that Hakeem is once again being massively overrated. People get infatuated with his two successful playoff runs, as if his entire career was like that. Same goes for Oscar Robertson, people are obsessed with his inflated stats. Yes, Oscar played on a terrible team that hated him for most of his career, but Oscar was a jerk of a teammate. He bullied everyone because he could not live with the fact that not everyone was as commited to winning as he was. In alot of ways he's like Michael Jordan, same personality, same skill-level, but unlike Jordan, Oscar played in a segregated city where he was the constant target of racism. He coudn't bully people like Jordan could, because nobody in that time was going to let a black man bully them. Would Oscar have done better today? Probably. But you dont compare him to others based on what he would have done in modern times, you base them on what he did in his era, and he was not as successful as his stats show.

I agree whole heartidly, as great as those guys were these people are overrating them.


Two players are being underrated vastly, Jerry West, and Julius Erving. I said I'd make a post explaining how underrated they are but I havent the time and really I dont feel like I have the effort. I've always said public polls comprised of people who nothing of the subject is a bad way of figuring out the right answer. Asking people who the best basketball players ever is alot like asking people what the answer to Zeno's paradox' are. Neither really have an answer, but the general public wont be able to have any meaningful discussion on what the possible answers are. I guess you could say I think the best political system is an oligarchy, but I guess that's for another topic. As far as this one goes, I will always maintain that it is a waste of time, and so far my opinion has not changed.
There should be a set criteria of who gets to vote, I dont like the idea of homers voting on a subject they pay little attention to. I know Ima come off as a pompous *** but its true, you know who the quality posters are, its those people I respect. Im not naming names, most of the people Ive debated with here are people I respect, especially the really opinionated ones, Im just saying we should eliminate the children's votes.

GregOden#1
07-23-2008, 04:13 AM
Depends on how early your talking, Ill take a the words straight from Tex's mouth, could you imagine Shaq with that lane, GAME OVER. It was much easier for bigmen to dominate in the early stages of the game. Over time its become more of a spread out game.

The lane widening's effectiveness is overrated. If it werent then Chamberlain would've gotten worse after the league widened it (64-65 IIRC), instead he got better and more effective as time went on, including having what many consider to be the greatest NBA season ever in 66-67.

Also, for Shaq to play in the 60s he'd have to trim down ALOT, else he'd miss 60-70 games every year due to injury. He'd also have to work on diversifying his offensive game to something outside of a baby hook and a dunk, as physical as it was back then dunking on people was seen as disrespectful, and it'd get your *** kicked if you did it repeatedly.

Then again all this might help him in the end. Him playing against much better centers than he did during his career would probably force him to work harder on his game and extend his career. Most people say Shaq was lazy, and he had alot of unfulfilled potential, maybe playing in a league where he'd be forced to work that much harder would be good for him, and make him an even better player.

nbafan244
07-23-2008, 05:13 AM
where the **** is clyd drexler?

Chronz
07-23-2008, 06:00 AM
The lane widening's effectiveness is overrated. If it werent then Chamberlain would've gotten worse after the league widened it (64-65 IIRC), instead he got better and more effective as time went on, including having what many consider to be the greatest NBA season ever in 66-67.
Overrated by whom? It was enough of a factor to be changed that cannot be refuted and if your saying Shaq wouldnt have it far easier with the lane Mikan played with then Id have to take Tex's side. Couple that with the fact that they could just wait for Shaq to come down the court to his leisure and set up shop its seriously ridiculous at this point.


Also, for Shaq to play in the 60s he'd have to trim down ALOT, else he'd miss 60-70 games every year due to injury. He'd also have to work on diversifying his offensive game to something outside of a baby hook and a dunk, as physical as it was back then dunking on people was seen as disrespectful, and it'd get your *** kicked if you did it repeatedly.

I didnt say 60's I said Mikans era.
Edit) Actually I didnt specify but I was referring to the 50's, I thought we both knew that.



Then again all this might help him in the end. Him playing against much better centers than he did during his career would probably force him to work harder on his game and extend his career. Most people say Shaq was lazy, and he had alot of unfulfilled potential, maybe playing in a league where he'd be forced to work that much harder would be good for him, and make him an even better player.

Depends on the players around him, Shaq had the potential to be the greatest of all time, instead he'll have to settle for a top 5-7 ranking. But if these monkeys have their way Shaq wont even be in the same discussion.

fresh prince
07-23-2008, 01:09 PM
The main reason they won was because of Shaq I dont know what your links were suppose to prove, everything was built on Shaqs utter domination against the best bigman tandem in the league.

I dont know what your links are suppose to prove but if your trying to make a point at least have the intelligence to make it yourself.

Have the intelligence to know what you're talking about. I'm sure you didn't watch any of those Spurs series... so do your research and read the links son..

Theres plenty of stats, facts and qoutes from Shaq, Pop, Duncan,and David Robinson, to support my argument.. Kobe was the best player on the floor in these Spurs series.

Read the links..be enlightened...A life without knowledge is death in disguise

2001
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010520&slug=lakers200


2002
http://www.lakersuniverse.com/playof...m#lakersspurs4

2004
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=240511013

Chronz
07-24-2008, 03:59 AM
Have the intelligence to know what you're talking about. I'm sure you didn't watch any of those Spurs series...
Nevermind I thought you would have the integrity to formulate an actual argument instead you rely on these pathetic assumptions, I have just about every Lakers playoff game from their 3-peet days and a few big games from the 99-2005 season. Believe me when I say Ive played them more than youve seen them.

NEXT



so do your research and read the links son..

Theres plenty of stats, facts and qoutes from Shaq, Pop, Duncan,and David Robinson, to support my argument.. Kobe was the best player on the floor in these Spurs series.

Read the links..be enlightened...A life without knowledge is death in disguise

2001
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010520&slug=lakers200


2002
http://www.lakersuniverse.com/playof...m#lakersspurs4

2004
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=240511013


Go ahead enlighten me, tell me your point of view, what were these cherry picked game summaries/articles suppose to prove?

fresh prince
07-24-2008, 12:58 PM
Its plenty self explanatory bro.. They're not just games.. there's recaps of the whole series in there for you... Kobe dominated these particular series..It's really apparent and obvious here. He was better than both Shaq and Duncan in these match ups

If you truly do have the footage. I suggest you grab a cold one, pop those bad boys in and brush up on your knowledge.

Chronz
07-24-2008, 05:23 PM
In other words, you have nothing.

Shaq was always the superior player. Let me guess your one of those kids who thinks because TP won the Finals MVP he was the best player on the floor right, Duncan opened up everything for him, Shaq did the same for Kobe. I could care less if Kobe scored 40 on a buttload of shots, Shaq was the driving force behind those championships. Shaqs impact gos beyond the measureables and even if we judge them Shaq comes out on top.

Again try forming your own opinion, or you can keep stalling by regurgitating your useless stance, if its such an easy argument you could do it yourself. Cmon man, step up

fresh prince
07-24-2008, 06:06 PM
Theres no need..Your reading comprehension clearly is not up to par. Why should I waste time crafting a well though out argument that you wont comprehend? when there are stats, and quotes form the involved players to corroborate my point.

I never argued that Shaq wasn't the dominating force on the team. My argument (its really not even debatable) is that against the Spurs in 2001,2002 and 2004 Kobe was the best player on the floor. Did Shaq draw attention away from him yes..but it still doesn't take away the fact that Kobe put on epic performances in each one of those series.Re - watch the footage you have and you'll see what i mean.. But one thing to look for:

In each series 2001, 2002, 2004 Kobe had the highest 4th qtr scoring avg of anyone not named Michael Jordan ever in an NBA series. His 2002 performance in 4 games:

33.25 ppg 7.2 rpg 7.1 apg 49% fg and almost 2.4 steals per game still rank as one of the best ever..

And overall in these series Kobe combined avg is:

30.6 ppg 5.4 rpg anf 6.4 apg on 48% fg

Shaq: 26.7 ppg 12.3 rpg and 2.1 bpg 45%ft (Only for SHaq): 52%fg

How quickly we forget... You don't even have to watch the entire series..JUST watch the 4th qtr of every Laker Victory and you'll see what I mean ...

In the 12 Laker victories in these 3 series Shaq scored double digits in the 4th Qtr? 3 times

In those same victories Kobe posted 8 double digit 4th qtr scoring games!!

THE QUOTES all from 2001, 2002, 2004

Shaquille O'Neal (LAL): "I told Kobe that he was my idol... I'm serious, I think he's the best player in the league, by far"

Horace Grant (LAL): "He played like number 23"

Gregg Popovich (SAS): "We are facing a 2 headed monster and in the 4th Qtr Kobe gets really ugly"

Derek Fisher (LAL): "Fortunately for us, our monster has two heads."

Tim Duncan (SAS): "I thought we really had a chance at this series, Kobe proved to be more than we could handle."

David Robinson (SAS): "At the end (of the game) they have Kobe Bryant, that's kind of a nice luxury."


Read Slowly maybe you'll get the drift

Chronz
07-24-2008, 07:44 PM
Theres no need..Your reading comprehension clearly is not up to par.
OOOOOOOHH, I love it when they insult my intelligence


Why should I waste time crafting a well though out argument that you wont comprehend? when there are stats, and quotes form the involved players to corroborate my point.

Sounds like BS excuses to me, you can think Im a ****** but my posting history suggests otherwise. Ive never been one not to debate so your whole I cant read argument isnt holding any water, Im simply asking you to have the stones to make one yourself.


I never argued that Shaq wasn't the dominating force on the team.
I never said you did, seems like you have got some comprehension classes you need to get to...


My argument (its really not even debatable) is that against the Spurs in 2001,2002 and 2004 Kobe was the best player on the floor.
He was never the best player because he wasnt the main guy on the squad, he was never the MAIN focus of the opposing teams defenses and he never controlled the defensive side of the court the way Shaq did in his defensive prime.


Did Shaq draw attention away from him yes..but it still doesn't take away the fact that Kobe put on epic performances in each one of those series.Re - watch the footage you have and you'll see what i mean.. But one thing to look for:

Kobe was fantastic, show me where I said he wasnt (MORE READING COMPREHENSION PROBLEMS?) but Shaq is always priority number 1, its really not even debatable ;), find a way to get the footage I have and you'll see what I mean but one thing to look for is how they swarmed Shaq and how he opened everything up for Kobe. Like D-Wade told an OLD SHAQ in the Finals: "If they keep playing you this way, Im going to keep looking to take over." Granted by then Shaq wasnt able to dominate but he was still opening the game up for his teammates, combine that trait with a dominant performance and you have yourself the greater player.


In each series 2001, 2002, 2004 Kobe had the highest 4th qtr scoring avg of anyone not named Michael Jordan ever in an NBA series.
Yes Kobe was spectacular, Shaq was better. Look at his stats, opposing teams defensive attention, and intangible effect on his teammates...



His 2002 performance in 4 games:

33.25 ppg 7.2 rpg 7.1 apg 49% fg and almost 2.4 steals per game still rank as one of the best ever..
Dont you mean 2001? But dude they completely obliterated the Spurs that year, much of the series was in garbage time, Shaq made quick work of them early and Kobe just went with the flow of the game the rest of the time. Kobe was clearly better in game 2, Shaq didnt really give it his all, but throughout the course of the series Shaq was the driving force/most important player. His defensive contributions and how he controlled paint give him the edge. Lets focus on the other series;

2002-
G1: Shaq was infinitely better
G2: The game Kobe traveled and cost the team the game but he was still the better player. Shaq played half *** defense and couldnt control the boards.
G3: The Lakers dominated the paint holding like a 20PT edge inside, and it was because of Shaq. He dominated the game defensively and made it hard for Duncan on the inside.
G4: Kobes heroics in the 4th were the most pivotal aspect in this game but his play in the 3 quarters before was the reason the game was so close in the first place. Shaq once again did the job on both ends, but hard to say one was clearly better than the other statistically, I'd give Shaq the edge just because we both know he was the main focus of the teams defense and he opened up the game for the rest of the Lakers.
G5: Kobe, no contest

2004- Kobe played erratically but had a huge game, Shaq dominated the boards, Malone checked Duncan. I have 3 MVP's for this series


Look man I get your point that against the Spurs Kobe brought his best, those series were the closest he ever measured up to the superior player but hes still the 2nd banana. No amount of revisionist history will change this FACT. Shaq was always the better player during the title runs, even against the Spurs and their HOF frontline.


And overall in these series Kobe combined avg is:

30.6 ppg 5.4 rpg anf 6.4 apg on 48% fg

Shaq: 26.7 ppg 12.3 rpg and 2.1 bpg 45%ft (Only for SHaq): 52%fg

Your stats are incomplete....


How quickly we forget... You don't even have to watch the entire series..JUST watch the 4th qtr of every Laker Victory and you'll see what I mean ...
Watch ENTIRE games you'll see what I mean


In the 12 Laker victories in these 3 series Shaq scored double digits in the 4th Qtr? 3 times

In those same victories Kobe posted 8 double digit 4th qtr scoring games!!

Kobe was the closer, that has always has been his role, doesnt change the fact that Shaq had the greatest impact on the outcome of the game.


THE QUOTES all from 2001, 2002, 2004

Shaquille O'Neal (LAL): "I told Kobe that he was my idol... I'm serious, I think he's the best player in the league, by far"

LMAO, your actually taking Shaq at face value? Now I know your ridiculous, you need to change your motto quickly, Bucher would never be this dumb.


Horace Grant (LAL): "He played like number 23"
MJ never had the worlds greatest decoy for his offensive drives


Gregg Popovich (SAS): "We are facing a 2 headed monster and in the 4th Qtr Kobe gets really ugly"

The Lakers have always been a 2-headed monster, that didnt prevent anyone from KNOWING Shaq was the MAIN HEAD.


Derek Fisher (LAL): "Fortunately for us, our monster has two heads."

This is getting repetitive


Tim Duncan (SAS): "I thought we really had a chance at this series, Kobe proved to be more than we could handle."

What else would you expect him to say on the night Kobe went off for 40?


David Robinson (SAS): "At the end (of the game) they have Kobe Bryant, that's kind of a nice luxury."

Yes it is, meanwhile the Spurs had who Duncan? Yea hes not a luxury at all


Read Slowly maybe you'll get the drift

Think harder, maybe youll make an actual argument



OK I'll play your stupid game;


Bryant didn't think he was in any particular zone, but was only trying to take what the Spurs were giving him.

They were giving him plenty, its the luxury perimeter players have when they have the most dominant finisher of all time.

Vidball
07-24-2008, 07:50 PM
Theres no need..Your reading comprehension clearly is not up to par. Why should I waste time crafting a well though out argument that you wont comprehend? when there are stats, and quotes form the involved players to corroborate my point.

I never argued that Shaq wasn't the dominating force on the team. My argument (its really not even debatable) is that against the Spurs in 2001,2002 and 2004 Kobe was the best player on the floor. Did Shaq draw attention away from him yes..but it still doesn't take away the fact that Kobe put on epic performances in each one of those series.Re - watch the footage you have and you'll see what i mean.. But one thing to look for:

In each series 2001, 2002, 2004 Kobe had the highest 4th qtr scoring avg of anyone not named Michael Jordan ever in an NBA series. His 2002 performance in 4 games:

33.25 ppg 7.2 rpg 7.1 apg 49% fg and almost 2.4 steals per game still rank as one of the best ever..

And overall in these series Kobe combined avg is:

30.6 ppg 5.4 rpg anf 6.4 apg on 48% fg

Shaq: 26.7 ppg 12.3 rpg and 2.1 bpg 45%ft (Only for SHaq): 52%fg

How quickly we forget... You don't even have to watch the entire series..JUST watch the 4th qtr of every Laker Victory and you'll see what I mean ...

In the 12 Laker victories in these 3 series Shaq scored double digits in the 4th Qtr? 3 times

In those same victories Kobe posted 8 double digit 4th qtr scoring games!!

THE QUOTES all from 2001, 2002, 2004

Shaquille O'Neal (LAL): "I told Kobe that he was my idol... I'm serious, I think he's the best player in the league, by far"

Horace Grant (LAL): "He played like number 23"

Gregg Popovich (SAS): "We are facing a 2 headed monster and in the 4th Qtr Kobe gets really ugly"

Derek Fisher (LAL): "Fortunately for us, our monster has two heads."

Tim Duncan (SAS): "I thought we really had a chance at this series, Kobe proved to be more than we could handle."

David Robinson (SAS): "At the end (of the game) they have Kobe Bryant, that's kind of a nice luxury."


Read Slowly maybe you'll get the drift

Great post...I don't think Kobe deserves a spot in the top 7, but to argue against this is just to try and save face. Shaq was more dominant for sure, but Kobe had A LOT more to do with the rings than he's given credit for. They wouldn't have made it out of the WCF in 3 of their 4 Finals appearances if the Lakers didn't have 2 Batmans instead of a Batman and a Robin.

Chronz
07-24-2008, 07:56 PM
Great post...I don't think Kobe deserves a spot in the top 7, but to argue against this is just to try and save face. Shaq was more dominant for sure, but Kobe had A LOT more to do with the rings than he's given credit for. They wouldn't have made it out of the WCF in 3 of their 4 Finals appearances if the Lakers didn't have 2 Batmans instead of a Batman and a Robin.
No doubt, Ive never been one to discredit Kobe, have always respected his contributions, but he was no Shaq. He just never could be, Shaq was too big and too unique. In terms of intangible worth there will never be another Shaq. He simply did too much for the players around him, he made the game easier for everyone. Kobe can do this when he plays in the mid-post but not to the extent Shaq did.

So heres my logic, if they have comparable numbers, but one player was obviously the focus of the opposing teams defense and he facilitated the offense accordingly how is it even a debate?

fresh prince
07-24-2008, 07:57 PM
Chronz we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one man. I cant spell it out anymore clearly than:

In these series from 2001 - 2004

Kobe averaged:

30.6 ppg 5.4 rpg and 6.4 apg on 48% fg

Shaq: 26.7 ppg 12.3 rpg and 2.1 bpg 45%ft (Only for SHaq): 52%fg


Good points overall by you though..and I respect your opinion we just disagree. So its cool..Obama or Mccain?

Chronz
07-24-2008, 07:59 PM
Ill let it go just because its dumb thread to argue this point on, but there will be a time when we clash and next time Ill actually do some research on the subject, your stats are incomplete. I dont like comparing numbers unless I have everything available.

Vidball
07-24-2008, 10:35 PM
No doubt, Ive never been one to discredit Kobe, have always respected his contributions, but he was no Shaq. He just never could be, Shaq was too big and too unique. In terms of intangible worth there will never be another Shaq. He simply did too much for the players around him, he made the game easier for everyone. Kobe can do this when he plays in the mid-post but not to the extent Shaq did.

So heres my logic, if they have comparable numbers, but one player was obviously the focus of the opposing teams defense and he facilitated the offense accordingly how is it even a debate?

Agree 100%