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daleja424
07-19-2008, 08:00 PM
This off season I have heard, more then ever, many people questioning a teams ability to compete next year based on that fact that they are weak at one position or another...and it doesn't make sense to me. I mean come on. Look at most of the good teams. They are made up of a big 2 or 3 players...and then a bunch of role players and specialist:

KG/The Truth/RayRay -----> Posey, Perkins, House, Rondo, Brown...
Kobe/Gasol/Odom ------> Vujacic, Turiaf, Vlad Rad, Fisher, Farmar...
Paul/West ------> Chadler, Peja, Mo Pete, Pargo
Duncan/Ginobili/Parker ------> Oberto, Bowen, Finley, Horry, Thomas

etc, etc, etc

...The only exception I can think of where a team has more then 3 great players is Detroit...who have a very balanced lineup (yet with no elite players).

My point in saying this is why do I keep hearing that teams like Washington, Miami, Toronto, and Charlotte can't compete in the east because they have "holes".

-Sure Washington lacks a true PG and have a below average center but so what? They have a big three to carry them (ala The Celtics last year)

-For Miami...see Washington. This is a team with one of the best players in the league (when Healthy), an all star SF, and a very very talented PF...yet all I hear is that they don't have a good Pg or C... who cares!?! You trying tell me you need all-stars at 5 positions to win...well thats just false

-Toronto and Charlotte- See Miami and Washington above

The point is this: An argument of "They don't have a good PG, or they have a hole here or there..." doesn't prove a team will be bad... just look at the elite teams...they all have positions of weakness. In a salary cap era...it is nearly impossible to get a "perfect" team...

RaptorsFanCB4
07-19-2008, 08:09 PM
ovbiously the celtics have a better lineup and bench..

SHONIE
07-19-2008, 08:17 PM
miami- beasley may be "very very talented" but he is unproven and he is not leading the heat deep into the playoffs. They have almost nothing beyond wade/marion.

washington- will get recognition if they stay healthy

toronto - will get recognition if JO isn't a bum

Charlotte - Not really contenders

daleja424
07-19-2008, 08:20 PM
ovbiously the celtics have a better lineup and bench..

going into last year... how was Perkins and Rondo in the starting lineup better then say having Haywood/Daniels? or Blount/Chalmers? or Moon/Bargnani? or Mohammed/Felton?

and what was special about there bench? They had a couple journeymen (Posey and House) and a bunch of rookies/youngsters like Big baby and Leon Poe

daleja424
07-19-2008, 08:24 PM
miami- beasley may be "very very talented" but he is unproven and he is not leading the heat deep into the playoffs. They have almost nothing beyond wade/marion.

washington- will get recognition if they stay healthy

toronto - will get recognition if JO isn't a bum

Charlotte - Not really contenders

He doesn't have too. Thats what Wade is for. If Lebron can get his scrubs to the finals then why can't wade (with Marion and Beasley) lead his team into being contenders? wade when healthy 2 years ago was battling Kobe for league supremacy...

and with Charlotte... they have a very very talented team... while they probably still wont make the playoffs...it cant be denied that they have the pieces to be good if they ever got their heads right...

alexander_37
07-19-2008, 08:42 PM
people like to nit pick thats why detroit is never critisised beyond no exptional stars because u cant really say anything but they are in the upper echelon

the media needs something to pick at or they dont talk about a team or make something up and most people are incapable of forming their own opinion

daleja424
07-19-2008, 09:51 PM
Ya... people do nit pick. But I look at it like this. If the Heat had been a playoff team last year and then had this same team as they do now this year...no one would be looking at the holes... People only nit-pick on teams that lost...

_Sn1P3r_
07-19-2008, 09:52 PM
Raptors don't have an all-star SF.

daleja424
07-19-2008, 09:55 PM
Raptors don't have an all-star SF.

I never said they did. They piont is that they have their own version of a big three (Calderon, Bosh, JO)...with two holes in their lineup...so people doubt them. Which is dumb

pebloemer
07-19-2008, 10:12 PM
going into last year... how was Perkins and Rondo in the starting lineup better then say having Haywood/Daniels? or Blount/Chalmers? or Moon/Bargnani? or Mohammed/Felton?

and what was special about there bench? They had a couple journeymen (Posey and House) and a bunch of rookies/youngsters like Big baby and Leon Poe

"going into last year," absolutely, I would agree with you, but you can't assume that players are going to be good even though going into the year they are not projected to do good. If Rondo and Perkins (and Boston's bench which was also heavily criticised) didn't perform as well as they did, there is no way they would have close to the season they had based solely on the big 3.

You can't say that criticizing teams based on holes is wrong by arguing that Boston had holes going into the year. During the year those holes were filled from within the existing lineup. You are assuming that the critiques of other teams' "holes" will be filled by their existing players because Boston's existing players were able to fill those holes? All you have to base your prediction on is potential, progress and the past. Boston did well because last season, Rondo/Perkins were much better than Moon/bargnani, blount/chalmers, mohammed/felton. If the other pairings show that they can fill the holes of their team and become impact players, than sure, they can compete, but they are competing without the holes they were predicted to have.

I am not saying that teams with holes can't win, but they need to have adequate ways to hide, or fill those holes, or methods to overpower those holes by taking advantage of other teas holes with the strong spots.

daleja424
07-19-2008, 10:23 PM
"going into last year," absolutely, I would agree with you, but you can't assume that players are going to be good even though going into the year they are not projected to do good. If Rondo and Perkins (and Boston's bench which was also heavily criticised) didn't perform as well as they did, there is no way they would have close to the season they had based solely on the big 3.

You can't say that criticizing teams based on holes is wrong by arguing that Boston had holes going into the year. During the year those holes were filled from within the existing lineup. You are assuming that the critiques of other teams' "holes" will be filled by their existing players because Boston's existing players were able to fill those holes? All you have to base your prediction on is potential, progress and the past. Boston did well because last season, Rondo/Perkins were much better than Moon/bargnani, blount/chalmers, mohammed/felton. If the other pairings show that they can fill the holes of their team and become impact players, than sure, they can compete, but they are competing without the holes they were predicted to have.

I am not saying that teams with holes can't win, but they need to have adequate ways to hide, or fill those holes, or methods to overpower those holes by taking advantage of other teas holes with the strong spots.

The point with Miami and Toronto is that they just got their big 3 together and poeple are questioning their holes. We don't know how moon/bargnani or blount/chalmers will fill out a lineup b/c we havent seen it yet. But all the good teams have holes. They also have superstars to cover those holes. The Heat have wade to cover up the PG hole and marion/bealsey to help cover up the center hole. So why is it such a big deal that the Heat have no proven starter at center or PG?

...did that make any sense?

JordansBulls
07-20-2008, 09:30 AM
going into last year... how was Perkins and Rondo in the starting lineup better then say having Haywood/Daniels? or Blount/Chalmers? or Moon/Bargnani? or Mohammed/Felton?

and what was special about there bench? They had a couple journeymen (Posey and House) and a bunch of rookies/youngsters like Big baby and Leon Poe

Exactly!! Everyone did nothing but antagonize the Celtics all year saying they wouldn't win anything with those guys starting and how they had a terrible bench. Now when they win it all, people say look how great the team was.

Chronz
07-20-2008, 02:09 PM
Im not seeing the double standard here, your saying its wrong to criticize a teams weaknesses? Teams have weaknesses but they can compensate with bigger strengths. You can evaluate positional production at 82games.com, the Celtics had the greatest PER differential in the league;
PG +0.7
SG +4.4
SF +7.1
PF +7.0
C: +0.5

No player or team is without weaknesses but the best teams usually have less of them. However great those strengths are go a long way in determining how good of a team you can be.

Wilson
07-20-2008, 02:12 PM
People get into the habit of only looking at stats, and forget about the value of role players and sometimes defense.

The best example I can think of is some Laker fans thought the Lakers should have been going after Baron Davis and Gilbert Arenas because they get 20 PPG or whatever, despite the fact nearly every championship team plays defense.

People under-rate chemistry too.

daleja424
07-20-2008, 02:18 PM
Im not seeing the double standard here, your saying its wrong to criticize a teams weaknesses? Teams have weaknesses but they can compensate with bigger strengths. You can evaluate positional production at 82games.com, the Celtics had the greatest PER differential in the league;
PG +0.7
SG +4.4
SF +7.1
PF +7.0
C: +0.5

No player or team is without weaknesses but the best teams usually have less of them. However great those strengths are go a long way in determining how good of a team you can be.

The point is this...Its ******** to say that the Celtics are bad b/c they have Perkins at C...b/c they have 3 all-stars. The same way it is ******** to saythe Heat will suck b/c they have Blount at C b/c they have 3 great players... or to say that the Raps cant compete b/c they dont have a great Sg or SF...b/c they have a very strong 3 as well...

Instead of looking at the firepower a team has at its first 3 positions...too many people look for the weakspot on the team and claim they will suck based on that. Well no one looks at the celtics or laker....or the old bulls and said they cant compete b/c of a hole or two... so why do people do that to team slike Washingotn, Miami, and TOR

Pran Raznor
07-20-2008, 02:50 PM
The point is this...Its ******** to say that the Celtics are bad b/c they have Perkins at C...b/c they have 3 all-stars. The same way it is ******** to saythe Heat will suck b/c they have Blount at C b/c they have 3 great players... or to say that the Raps cant compete b/c they dont have a great Sg or SF...b/c they have a very strong 3 as well...

Instead of looking at the firepower a team has at its first 3 positions...too many people look for the weakspot on the team and claim they will suck based on that. Well no one looks at the celtics or laker....or the old bulls and said they cant compete b/c of a hole or two... so why do people do that to team slike Washingotn, Miami, and TOR

Great players on the Heat

1. Wade
2. Marion?
3. Ummm...hmmm

daleja424
07-20-2008, 02:53 PM
Great players on the Heat

1. Wade
2. Marion?
3. Ummm...hmmm

how about Mike Beasley...

Chronz
07-20-2008, 02:59 PM
The point is this...Its ******** to say that the Celtics are bad b/c they have Perkins at C...b/c they have 3 all-stars. The same way it is ******** to saythe Heat will suck b/c they have Blount at C b/c they have 3 great players... or to say that the Raps cant compete b/c they dont have a great Sg or SF...b/c they have a very strong 3 as well...

Instead of looking at the firepower a team has at its first 3 positions...too many people look for the weakspot on the team and claim they will suck based on that. Well no one looks at the celtics or laker....or the old bulls and said they cant compete b/c of a hole or two... so why do people do that to team slike Washingotn, Miami, and TOR

I guess your double standard lies in the roster, simply their strengths outweighs the weaknesses and people probably feel that vulnerable position would be more costly on that specific team because they cant compensate for it. Lets simplify things by pretending basketball was a 3-man sport, you wouldnt say having Anthony Carter would cost you the playoffs if the other player on that team was Tim Duncan. However if his teammate was Shareef then he may not be a good enough PG to get them to the playoffs. Nobody said that about the old bulls because they were some of the more complete and talented teams of the 90's.

Pran Raznor
07-20-2008, 06:24 PM
how about Mike Beasley...

What about him? You said great player...

daleja424
07-20-2008, 06:42 PM
What about him? You said great player...

Ya? Was Durant not good last year, were bron and melo not great their rookie years. It may be premature, but Beasley will have a really good rookie year along side Wade and marion... I guess the word great was a stretch...

primetimekings
07-20-2008, 07:11 PM
Ya? Was Durant not good last year, were bron and melo not great their rookie years. It may be premature, but Beasley will have a really good rookie year along side Wade and marion... I guess the word great was a stretch...

yea but they were all on teams that they were the best player or the best scorer.he could still be a marvin williams and not pan out

daleja424
07-20-2008, 07:20 PM
yea but they were all on teams that they were the best player or the best scorer.he could still be a marvin williams and not pan out

ya...but how likely is that? I mean really. Beasly is one of the surest picks in this draft.

primetimekings
07-20-2008, 07:22 PM
ya...but how likely is that? I mean really. Beasly is one of the surest picks in this draft.

injuries could happen he hasnt proved anything yet so u cant compare wade marion and beasley 2 allen KG pierce

Master Mind
07-20-2008, 07:25 PM
yea but they were all on teams that they were the best player or the best scorer.he could still be a marvin williams and not pan out

And how can he not thrive on a team with one of the best players in the league (D-Wade):eyebrow:...They'll greatly benefit from each other so im with my boy Daleja, he's gonna be great....

daleja424
07-20-2008, 07:55 PM
injuries could happen he hasnt proved anything yet so u cant compare wade marion and beasley 2 allen KG pierce

Oh I know...I dont mean to compare them to the champs yet. I only mean that even the champs have their holes...