PDA

View Full Version : Andrea's Potential



Bricklayer
07-17-2008, 06:44 PM
When we first drafted Bargs, he drew comparisons to Nowitzki and Gasol. After a promising rookie season, he regressed in his sophmore year in almost every way. With O'neal and Bosh under contract for at least 2 more years, it looks as if Andrea is going to be a bench player for the foreseeable future.

So my question is, what sholud B.C do with this guy? I may be in the minority, but I say trade him before his stock slips to the point where we can't get anything significant back. Do we really want the first overall pick to be a bench player his first 4 years in the league? Thoughts?

4166466502
07-17-2008, 06:51 PM
first of all...if we trade bargsnani...it will be a mistake ...cuz than if bargnani does turn out to be the player people expected....raptor fans are gona regret it and start calling it bad trade or watever..second of all...we puttin too much pressure on this guy...REMEMBER when he was drafted...people said DOWN THE ROAD....he will be an all star calliber player...it has juss been two seasons and everbody is ripping on him...and now that there is oneal and bosh...bargnani doesnt have to be worried bout rebounding or defense that much...because thats the weak spot of his game...all he will be on the floor for will be scoring...and when he develops into the good scorer...defense will come naturally...with joneal trade i think its gona help BARGS become a better player i think...so no we dont trade him:)

da1nonly
07-17-2008, 07:00 PM
I hated bargnani last year... I was very disappointed with his predictable catch at the 3point line to a quick head fake, then either a jack up 3 or a clumsy drive into the lane for a charge...

but...
I'd like to see if he can bounce back... see if he learned anything from bigman camp... I figure with less pressure and responsibility... JO and bosh setting an example... playing against 2nd unit players... maybe some tattoos... he should flourish and hopefully get some confidence moving into his 4th year...

if he shows further signs of regressing by the deadline... then its time to cut bait and admit the kwame mistake and try to get something...

lukeem21
07-17-2008, 07:03 PM
first of all...if we trade bargsnani...it will be a mistake ...cuz than if bargnani does turn out to be the player people expected....raptor fans are gona regret it and start calling it bad trade or watever..second of all...we puttin too much pressure on this guy...REMEMBER when he was drafted...people said DOWN THE ROAD....he will be an all star calliber player...it has juss been two seasons and everbody is ripping on him...and now that there is oneal and bosh...bargnani doesnt have to be worried bout rebounding or defense that much...because thats the weak spot of his game...all he will be on the floor for will be scoring...and when he develops into the good scorer...defense will come naturally...with joneal trade i think its gona help BARGS become a better player i think...so no we dont trade him:)

totally agree.... with oneal and bosh starting there are still about 30mpg available for bargnani in the post with a lot less pressure, he's got two years to find his own niche and become the player he should be

nstojic
07-17-2008, 07:16 PM
When we first drafted Bargs, he drew comparisons to Nowitzki and Gasol. After a promising rookie season, he regressed in his sophmore year in almost every way. With O'neal and Bosh under contract for at least 2 more years, it looks as if Andrea is going to be a bench player for the foreseeable future.

So my question is, what sholud B.C do with this guy? I may be in the minority, but I say trade him before his stock slips to the point where we can't get anything significant back. Do we really want the first overall pick to be a bench player his first 4 years in the league? Thoughts?

or he improves and LEARNS how to play the 4-5... keeps his 3 range and becomes our 6th man off the bench and after o'neal leaves he shifts into the starting role with bosh and whatever other allstar we can sign that offseason

dirtybird
07-17-2008, 07:21 PM
Bricklayer, I'm of the same opinion as you. I think that by the end of the year, his trade value will be very low (much lower than it is now). There are a few things that concern me: 1) his athleticism (not to be confused with his ability to handle the ball); 2) rebounding (related to effort and athleticism); 3) work ethic. Those 3 flaws will be his undoing. Even if he scores 13-15PPG, it will be an empty 15 and a glaring rebounding deficiency.

If the Raptors could trade Bargnani for a good wing player, I would make that move. However, I doubt that a team would be willing to make that deal.

Bricklayer
07-17-2008, 07:24 PM
or he improves and LEARNS how to play the 4-5... keeps his 3 range and becomes our 6th man off the bench and after o'neal leaves he shifts into the starting role with bosh and whatever other allstar we can sign that offseason

Rose coloured glasses?:o I'm not sure what Bargs showed you last year that made you think he was going to develop into an all-star, but I saw a guy who couldn't stay out of foul trouble, didn't rebound, had poor shot selection, and sulked like a kid on a time-out anytime he went to the bench. Don't get me wrong, I want the guy to be good, I just don't see it happening.

Ramon Nivar
07-17-2008, 07:35 PM
I think the biggest thing he needs is to get into the weight room so he can take the ball in the post and use the jumper while being able to fall back on his ability to out muscle the other guy. As of right now he is basically a SF with no handles at all, a skill set worse than Jason Kapono's basically. That is not what any team will need in the low post and unless he does hit the weight room and changes his mindset.

The sky is the limit for him if he can do that so he isn't just a stand around for the ball type player. That isn't going to work with someone as awkward and weak as him.

clehmun
07-17-2008, 07:38 PM
first of all...if we trade bargsnani...it will be a mistake ...cuz than if bargnani does turn out to be the player people expected....raptor fans are gona regret it and start calling it bad trade or watever..second of all...we puttin too much pressure on this guy...REMEMBER when he was drafted...people said DOWN THE ROAD....he will be an all star calliber player...it has juss been two seasons and everbody is ripping on him...and now that there is oneal and bosh...bargnani doesnt have to be worried bout rebounding or defense that much...because thats the weak spot of his game...all he will be on the floor for will be scoring...and when he develops into the good scorer...defense will come naturally...with joneal trade i think its gona help BARGS become a better player i think...so no we dont trade him:)

dude is that your phone number you're using as your user name? :speechless:

nstojic
07-17-2008, 08:07 PM
Rose coloured glasses?:o I'm not sure what Bargs showed you last year that made you think he was going to develop into an all-star, but I saw a guy who couldn't stay out of foul trouble, didn't rebound, had poor shot selection, and sulked like a kid on a time-out anytime he went to the bench. Don't get me wrong, I want the guy to be good, I just don't see it happening.

nowhere in my reply did i use the words 'all' and 'star' when addressing bargnani but this may be an optimistic viewpoint... however, he is working on all his weaknesses so far this off season and it appears that he will do so right up to training camp... so, we'll see

Master P
07-17-2008, 09:30 PM
am i the only one that liked what bargs was 'trying' to do last year. i will address foul trouble later, but first lets look at his game.

year 1: proved to be a deadly three-point shooter (for his height) from the top of the key. that was his comfort zone coming out of europe and it translated into a successful rookie year. however, how high is the ceiling for him if all he does is shoot three's from the top of the key? he's left himself with limited options of what is supposed to be an impressive offensive game: either shoot, or pass (which he did prove very good at). my problem with this being his game is that he pretty much hit the ceiling of it.

second year, he kept driving. is it a polished part of his game like his rookie technique of shooting the three? NO! will it make him a better player if he does develop it? YES! it would help shape an complete package offensive game from the top of the key (deadly three point, good passing, effective drive skills and lunging big men trying to stop the shot). is it there yet? NO! Is it the idea? Yes. Do I want to see Bargs stick to only knowing how to play like he did his rookie year instead of expanding his game? NO. People are right, this is what all the experts were talking about when he was drafted: certain aspects of his game need time to develop, especially given that he's a big.

next for him will be some low-post moves on the blocks. we saw flashes of it last year, but not enough to see how long it might take him to develop that game. i would doubt we will see much of it this year either with bosh / jo taking that spot of the offense.

now the fouls. he is a young big man. young big men get in foul trouble. everyone of them. until they get more established in the league and earn the respect (or the nba's desire to keep his entertaining game on the floor) the refs are going to call him tight. a lot of the fouls he's getting called for now he will soon be able to a) avoid more often, and b) not even have them called against him.

this all being said i am not sure whethe andrea will develop into this great player, but i can see what bc, the raptors organization, and several experts were thinking in regards to his potential when he was drafted number 1.

The Wise 1
07-17-2008, 09:32 PM
however, he is working on all his weaknesses so far this off season and it appears that he will do so right up to training camp... so, we'll see

"All his weaknesses" aka - his whole game except his average shooting for a shooter.


There are a few things that concern me: 1) his athleticism (not to be confused with his ability to handle the ball); 2) rebounding (related to effort and athleticism); 3) work ethic. Those 3 flaws will be his undoing. Even if he scores 13-15PPG, it will be an empty 15 and a glaring rebounding deficiency.

If the Raptors could trade Bargnani for a good wing player, I would make that move. However, I doubt that a team would be willing to make that deal.

Couldnt agree more. His lack of athleticism, willingness to bang and IQ are what really worry me. He has no bigman skills at all other then being 7 feet tall, so to expect him to even become a average rebounder and defender is asking a lot.

nstojic
07-17-2008, 09:38 PM
"All his weaknesses" aka - his whole game except his average shooting for a shooter.



Couldnt agree more. His lack of athleticism, willingness to bang and IQ are what really worry me. He has no bigman skills at all other then being 7 feet tall, so to expect him to even become a average rebounder and defender is asking a lot.

let him develop for christs sake!!! You all (for the most part) make it seem like since he's not the next dwight howard, he's useless... where the raps got into trouble with him last year is when they tried to completely change his game... "leave andrea alllooone!"

The Wise 1
07-17-2008, 09:46 PM
second year, he kept driving. is it a polished part of his game like his rookie technique of shooting the three? NO! will it make him a better player if he does develop it? YES! it would help shape an complete package offensive game from the top of the key (deadly three point, good passing, effective drive skills and lunging big men trying to stop the shot). is it there yet? NO! Is it the idea? Yes. Do I want to see Bargs stick to only knowing how to play like he did his rookie year instead of expanding his game? NO. People are right, this is what all the experts were talking about when he was drafted: certain aspects of his game need time to develop, especially given that he's a big.

next for him will be some low-post moves on the blocks. we saw flashes of it last year, but not enough to see how long it might take him to develop that game. i would doubt we will see much of it this year either with bosh / jo taking that spot of the offense.

See I just dont see that in him. Just because he can pump fake and dribble it twice does not make him a good dribbler. All those drives were because another player set him up so good that a bigman was running out at him and all he had to do was pump fake and he was going to get by him. Even doing that he failed miserably. IMO he lacks the coordination, strength, athleticism and handles to be able to do what your talking about. Ever see him shoot off the dribble? Man thats ugly. He gets like 3 inches off the floor and its a line drive.

For the low post part, I wish the Raps would just give up on that part of his game. I would like to see him face up 15 feet out more often instead of the 3 point line. But then you run into the problem of that being Bosh's game and he does it better then him so why would you give those shots and looks to Andrea. All this leads to him not being a good fit for this team even if for some miraculous reason he becomes a respectable player.

Bricklayer
07-17-2008, 09:46 PM
nowhere in my reply did i use the words 'all' and 'star' when addressing bargnani but this may be an optimistic viewpoint... however, he is working on all his weaknesses so far this off season and it appears that he will do so right up to training camp... so, we'll see

Oops, I miss read your post, my bad.

The Wise 1
07-17-2008, 09:47 PM
let him develop for christs sake!!! You all (for the most part) make it seem like since he's not the next dwight howard, he's useless... where the raps got into trouble with him last year is when they tried to completely change his game... "leave andrea alllooone!"

If you want to leave him alone then what is he? A 7 foot SF who cant guard a pylon and who is just a average shooter for a shooter? The guy brings nothing else to the floor other then a above average 3 point shot.

If that's what you expect from him then fine. The problem is is that he is a former #1 pick with limited skills.

Bricklayer
07-17-2008, 09:52 PM
The only strong point in his game is shooting 3's, but even that is overated considering most of his attempts are wide open shots yet he only shot 34% from beyond the arc last year. (Jamario Moon type numbers)

The Wise 1
07-17-2008, 10:00 PM
The only part of his game that is average or better is his shooting 3's, but even that is overated considering most of his attempts are wide open shots yet he only shot 34% from beyond the arc last year. (Jamario Moon type numbers)

FIXED.

nstojic
07-17-2008, 10:04 PM
See I just dont see that in him. Just because he can pump fake and dribble it twice does not make him a good dribbler. All those drives were because another player set him up so good that a bigman was running out at him and all he had to do was pump fake and he was going to get by him. Even doing that he failed miserably. IMO he lacks the coordination, strength, athleticism and handles to be able to do what your talking about. Ever see him shoot off the dribble? Man thats ugly. He gets like 3 inches off the floor and its a line drive.

For the low post part, I wish the Raps would just give up on that part of his game. I would like to see him face up 15 feet out more often instead of the 3 point line. But then you run into the problem of that being Bosh's game and he does it better then him so why would you give those shots and looks to Andrea. All this leads to him not being a good fit for this team even if for some miraculous reason he becomes a respectable player.

would you not agree that he showed some 'flashes' with some decent dunks and drives to and under the basket?

nstojic
07-17-2008, 10:10 PM
If you want to leave him alone then what is he? A 7 foot SF who cant guard a pylon and who is just a average shooter for a shooter? The guy brings nothing else to the floor other then a above average 3 point shot.

If that's what you expect from him then fine. The problem is is that he is a former #1 pick with limited skills.

I think eventually, yes... he can be a 5 that will grab 7-8 boards and will shoot a high % from 3 (for his size) and I feel that he will one day develop a real smooth mid range shot that he will use when he's inside the arc and notices that the other teams big is hesitant about leaving the paint... will he block shots? not likely... will he be a double-double? not over the entire season... but what's wrong with a C that could potentially get 20-23 ppg and grab 7-8 rpg, shoot 47-50% fg, 39-45% 3fg.....

The Wise 1
07-17-2008, 10:13 PM
would you not agree that he showed some 'flashes' with some decent dunks and drives to and under the basket?

99% of those dunks were the result of another teammate setting him up nicely where the defender was running out to cover him or the defender was giving him no respect and was flat footed and lazy thinking he was just going to shoot or pass. It was extremely rare when created his own shot and got those dunks. (EDIT) It was extremely rare for him to create his own shot and score. Even so, there are plenty of guys who show "flashes" a lot more often then Andrea and are at the end of the bench.

IMO he doesnt even stand a chance at holding Radmanovich's jock strap.


I think eventually, yes... he can be a 5 that will grab 7-8 boards and will shoot a high % from 3 (for his size) and I feel that he will one day develop a real smooth mid range shot that he will use when he's inside the arc and notices that the other teams big is hesitant about leaving the paint... will he block shots? not likely... will he be a double-double? not over the entire season... but what's wrong with a C that could potentially get 20-23 ppg and grab 7-8 rpg, shoot 47-50% fg, 39-45% 3fg.....

I respect your opinion but IMO he will always be a horrific rebounder and defender and in his prime he will be coming off the bench as a bigman who can stretch the floor with his 3 point shooting.

I also think 47-50% is stretching it a lot. Especially for someone who is out on the perimeter all the time.

nstojic
07-17-2008, 10:30 PM
^^ well, we'll see where year 3 of his development takes him...
also, i just think that he can't 'not' absorb info playing and practicing with CB/JO.. info regarding boards, work ethic, toughness...

Honest Truth
07-17-2008, 10:39 PM
99% of those dunks were the result of another teammate setting him up nicely where the defender was running out to cover him or the defender was giving him no respect and was flat footed and lazy thinking he was just going to shoot or pass. It was extremely rare when created his own shot and got those dunks. (EDIT) It was extremely rare for him to create his own shot and score. Even so, there are plenty of guys who show "flashes" a lot more often then Andrea and are at the end of the bench.

IMO he doesnt even stand a chance at holding Radmanovich's jock strap.



I respect your opinion but IMO he will always be a horrific rebounder and defender and in his prime he will be coming off the bench as a bigman who can stretch the floor with his 3 point shooting.

I also think 47-50% is stretching it a lot. Especially for someone who is out on the perimeter all the time.

You mentioned it twice so in this thread so I had to chime in. Basketball is a team sport. Everyone takes advantage of team play. It is like saying that calderon only successfully drives because of the screens he gets from his teammates. Let's be realistic, I don't see Andrea getting 20-25 ppg anytime soon nor do I see 7-8 rpg. He could eventually develop those numbers but they are a few seasons away at best. I think way too many people are critical of a (soon to be 3rd year player). I think many of the mistakes he made were due to the paranoia caused by the short leash Mitchell had him on. One mistake and he was gone to the bench. Can't play well that way no matter who you are. Foul trouble can be resolved with experience. That Boston game was ridiculous for him and I can see potential in that. I know it was only one game but to say that nothing he did last year can give you hope about his future game is ridiculous. He did a lot of good things and that one game was just one example. He did a lot of bad things too but I still chalk it up to a lack of experience.

nstojic
07-17-2008, 10:41 PM
You mentioned it twice so in this thread so I had to chime in. Basketball is a team sport. Everyone takes advantage of team play. It is like saying that calderon only successfully drives because of the screens he gets from his teammates. Let's be realistic, I don't see Andrea getting 20-25 ppg anytime soon nor do I see 7-8 rpg. He could eventually develop those numbers but they are a few seasons away at best. I think way too many people are critical of a (soon to be 3rd year player). I think many of the mistakes he made were due to the paranoia caused by the short leash Mitchell had him on. One mistake and he was gone to the bench. Can't play well that way no matter who you are. Foul trouble can be resolved with experience. That Boston game was ridiculous for him and I can see potential in that. I know it was only one game but to say that nothing he did last year can give you hope about his future game is ridiculous. He did a lot of good things and that one game was just one example. He did a lot of bad things too but I still chalk it up to a lack of experience.

i project those numbers in 2-3 years, at least... not next year or the year after that...

nads83
07-17-2008, 11:02 PM
this season will be huge for andrea. im not expecting him to average around 20 pts, thats unreasonable. but a solid season would be a step in the right direction for andrea and the franchise. a lot is riding on andrea. a solid season would be...13-15pts 5-6rebs 3-4ast 45%fg. thats very reasonable and if he dosnt produce, well...the franchise wont be advancing to the second rd anytime soon

Master P
07-17-2008, 11:10 PM
i agree that some of his drives were pretty darn ugly. personally id rather see him simplify and use the simple pump fake, one dribble past the close-out big, and a pull up jumper from the foul line area. any quick help defender will either be too short to challenge the shot, or will be leaving bosh or jo, allowing andrea to make a pull-up pass for an easy 2.

his basketball iq is high. reviews were very positive about that heading to the draft. the problem now is his skills need to be polished to catch up to his iq. ie, if he sees the opportunity to drive, his actual skill at driving (footwork, absorbing / forcing contact / finishing) is in development.

breakdown:

offensive:
3 point shooting game - strong
passing - strong
driving - weak (in development)
finishing on the move - weak (in development)
absorbing contact / not charging - weak (in development).

defense
strength - moderate
rebounding - weak (long way to go)
body use - weak (why he gets fouls).
shot blocking - moderate (shown flashes)

Raptors27
07-17-2008, 11:16 PM
I think eventually, yes... he can be a 5 that will grab 7-8 boards and will shoot a high % from 3 (for his size) and I feel that he will one day develop a real smooth mid range shot that he will use when he's inside the arc and notices that the other teams big is hesitant about leaving the paint... will he block shots? not likely... will he be a double-double? not over the entire season... but what's wrong with a C that could potentially get 20-23 ppg and grab 7-8 rpg, shoot 47-50% fg, 39-45% 3fg.....

I see him more as 17-19 ppg 7-8 rpg 2-3 spg shoot 46-48% 39-42% 3fg, and thats his top potential IMO

conway429
07-17-2008, 11:28 PM
I just don't think he's right for the team.
He's probably best suited for PF, which we don't need.
The #1 pick should be a starter, and he's not gonna cut it at C or SF.
Some of you guys are referring to him being the C in a year or 2, but he's softer than Gasol. I want a C who fills the lane, grabs rebounds and blocks shots.

argo
07-17-2008, 11:31 PM
Bargnani had a short leash? i wonder what that leash would be like if he played for Don Nelson?

Smitch came out in the media just after the halfway point of last season and said Bargs would start for the remainder of the season - the assumption being it would help his confidence. he did this while Bargs was in a slump and Rasho was playing solid as usual.

this kind of coddling is what turned me off of Bargs in the first place. yeah, he's young, going into his third year, blah blah blah. he's making millions, time to grow up and be a man.

time to suck it up and start playing some f-ing hard nosed defense, grab some boards, crash the glass. get in the gym, build some strength, work on your post game...

just please Bargs, show us you've put in the time in the off-season to improve and get tougher, and that you're ready to compete.

argo
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
i agree that some of his drives were pretty darn ugly. personally id rather see him simplify and use the simple pump fake, one dribble past the close-out big, and a pull up jumper from the foul line area. any quick help defender will either be too short to challenge the shot, or will be leaving bosh or jo, allowing andrea to make a pull-up pass for an easy 2.

his basketball iq is high. reviews were very positive about that heading to the draft. the problem now is his skills need to be polished to catch up to his iq. ie, if he sees the opportunity to drive, his actual skill at driving (footwork, absorbing / forcing contact / finishing) is in development.

breakdown:

offensive:
3 point shooting game - strong
passing - strong
driving - weak (in development)
finishing on the move - weak (in development)
absorbing contact / not charging - weak (in development).

defense
strength - moderate
rebounding - weak (long way to go)
body use - weak (why he gets fouls).
shot blocking - moderate (shown flashes)
good assessment.
i'd really like to see him improve his footwork, maybe play some SF. we wouldn't get destroyed on the boards while he's sitting outside the 3pt line if there's two other bigs in the game. he, AP, Kapono, and Calderon would stretch the floor nicely for JO/CB4 to operate down low.

Master P
07-18-2008, 01:15 AM
i dont think bargs will see a lot of minutes a sf; however, if he's having a good game i think he'll see critical minutes at the 3. what i mean is if the game is close down the stretch, once the timeouts start i see bargs, bosh, and oneal on offense, with moon coming into the defensive lineup after a timeout.

lorenz00
07-18-2008, 01:54 AM
my comment with this one is try to let his contract expries before deciding trading him or giving him away1

Raptorballa
07-18-2008, 02:05 AM
I don't think some of you realize it his 2nd year going to 3rd... You people are so eager to see someone be best player in the all of NBA just casue he was drafted first? Nash and Dirk for example... both shyt once drafted... home crowds booo'd them for christ sake... and now there both allstars...

People you have to relax... Andrea is human, and he gonna need time to develop... he was in Euro and its hard to switch into different styles of games... Some of you people bring his effort and confidence down... honestly have some hope and respect for the guy...

And honestly... there aint a lot of 7 foot guys who can drive and shoot very well.. so if you people want him to be good you obvs gotta give him time and confidence?

Honest Truth
07-18-2008, 07:55 AM
Bargnani had a short leash? i wonder what that leash would be like if he played for Don Nelson?

Smitch came out in the media just after the halfway point of last season and said Bargs would start for the remainder of the season - the assumption being it would help his confidence. he did this while Bargs was in a slump and Rasho was playing solid as usual.

this kind of coddling is what turned me off of Bargs in the first place. yeah, he's young, going into his third year, blah blah blah. he's making millions, time to grow up and be a man.

time to suck it up and start playing some f-ing hard nosed defense, grab some boards, crash the glass. get in the gym, build some strength, work on your post game...

just please Bargs, show us you've put in the time in the off-season to improve and get tougher, and that you're ready to compete.

I understand your point about Don Nelson. However, while he started, he basicaly was allowed to make one mistake and then to the bench. Mitchell did give him more leaway near the end of the season, but I cannot tell you the number of times I was frustrated watching Mitchell bring some other tool in to replace Bargnani after he just scored 10 points in a few minutes just because he made a defensive error or committed a foul. I beleive players should be accountable for their mistakes, but an understanding is necessary as well for players that are learning the game in only their softmore season.

Rapthug
07-18-2008, 09:44 AM
It would have to be a real attractive deal for BC to trade Bargs. You just can't give up that easy on a number one pick. It will be very interesting to see how he rebounds from last year. I think he has made strides on the defensive end but he's never going to be a defensive "stopper". He just needs to get some confidence back, get stronger, and get just a little bit of a mean streak. You can't teach 7 feet.....especially a 7 footer that can shot it like he can and is a very good passer. Also, let's face it....Bosh and JO are going to miss time this year so they need all the big bodies they can get. Like a lot of you said, maybe the addition of JO will take some pressure of him.

RapsFan4Life
07-18-2008, 09:48 AM
When we first drafted Bargs, he drew comparisons to Nowitzki and Gasol. After a promising rookie season, he regressed in his sophmore year in almost every way. With O'neal and Bosh under contract for at least 2 more years, it looks as if Andrea is going to be a bench player for the foreseeable future.

So my question is, what sholud B.C do with this guy? I may be in the minority, but I say trade him before his stock slips to the point where we can't get anything significant back. Do we really want the first overall pick to be a bench player his first 4 years in the league? Thoughts?

First lets agree that Andrea is a disapointment to Raps fans, however BC has done a good job to fill in with JO and moon for andreas stupidity, I dont think its smart to trade him simply because if he blows up for another team raptors will be pissed, his market value is very low .. and he has the skill set to be a star, 7 footer who can shoot and handle the ball ... he needs confidence practice and toughness... i think with bosh and JO if they keep training him in practice he will eventually be solid, trading him right now is just not a good idea, for what Toronto pays him I dont mind him pouring water for REAL basketball players, but my biggest fear is he goes to another team and averages 18,7 ... ill be sad we didnt keep him, but if we dont trade him then leave that number one pick in the locker room who cares

RapsFan4Life
07-18-2008, 09:50 AM
It would have to be a real attractive deal for BC to trade Bargs. You just can't give up that easy on a number one pick. It will be very interesting to see how he rebounds from last year. I think he has made strides on the defensive end but he's never going to be a defensive "stopper". He just needs to get some confidence back, get stronger, and get just a little bit of a mean streak. You can't teach 7 feet.....especially a 7 footer that can shot it like he can and is a very good passer. Also, let's face it....Bosh and JO are going to miss time this year so they need all the big bodies they can get. Like a lot of you said, maybe the addition of JO will take some pressure of him.

you think andrea is a very good passer, i dont know what channel you are watching the games on, but he can barly keep his palms on the ball, all he does is catch one dribble to the right stop pull up and shoot a brick, then run back and get scored on ... andreas ball handeling lacks!!! but what do you want from a 7 footer

Master P
07-18-2008, 10:38 AM
you are right that andrea can't pass while driving the lane, but the boy can pass. give him time.

kuppz
07-18-2008, 12:01 PM
Andrea's got all the tools to be an all-star. He's basically a 7 foot guard, he can shoot, dribble and pass. He's also quick and can blow by defenders or pull up and drain one in their face. IMO he's got the potential to be better than dirk. The only thing that's keeping him from being great is that hes frekin retarted. He does the stupidest **** I ever seen like that ****ty pump fake, or those retarted travels, charges, etc. I don't know what's going thru that guy's head half the time he just always looks lost. I am not giving up on him because I have seen flashes of what he can do he's just got 2 smarten up and learn from someone like bosh who relies on his quickness to score as well. I think they should try playing him at the three, where I think he is best suited to play. The only thing is that he needs to improve on D and he has length to his advantage and be effective guarding other 3s. Also he won't have to bang inside as much and can score in the ways he's comfertable scoring (shooting, face to the basket etc.) With a frontcourt of Andrea, CB and JO the raps would be really tuff to deal with.

The Wise 1
07-18-2008, 12:37 PM
You mentioned it twice so in this thread so I had to chime in. Basketball is a team sport. Everyone takes advantage of team play. It is like saying that calderon only successfully drives because of the screens he gets from his teammates. Let's be realistic, I don't see Andrea getting 20-25 ppg anytime soon nor do I see 7-8 rpg. He could eventually develop those numbers but they are a few seasons away at best. I think way too many people are critical of a (soon to be 3rd year player). I think many of the mistakes he made were due to the paranoia caused by the short leash Mitchell had him on. One mistake and he was gone to the bench. Can't play well that way no matter who you are. Foul trouble can be resolved with experience. That Boston game was ridiculous for him and I can see potential in that. I know it was only one game but to say that nothing he did last year can give you hope about his future game is ridiculous. He did a lot of good things and that one game was just one example. He did a lot of bad things too but I still chalk it up to a lack of experience.

Sure he did a lot of good things, but so did Kwame Brown and every other bust to play in the league. Difference was that they showed flashes a lot more then Andrea and showed more skills that would be beneficial to his position. Thats another thing I think me and a lot of the Andrea supporters dont see eye to eye on. People assume that just because hes 7 feet tall hes going to be able to get those skills that a normal 7 foot tall person has and add that to his perimeter play. I dont think thats the case.

Again I hear talk about him playing SF, I asked like 5 times in the other thread and got no replies, so I will ask again here. Why do you think Andrea would be a good choice at SF? He cant guard SF's and having a SF guard Andrea would make him look even worse. He can barely get around bigmen and now you want him trying to go around players who are naturally quicker and whose comfort zone is guarding the perimeter which are his so called strong suits. He would be reduced to even more of a 3 point chucker.

argo
07-18-2008, 01:08 PM
Sure he did a lot of good things, but so did Kwame Brown and every other bust to play in the league. Difference was that they showed flashes a lot more then Andrea and showed more skills that would be beneficial to his position. Thats another thing I think me and a lot of the Andrea supporters dont see eye to eye on. People assume that just because hes 7 feet tall hes going to be able to get those skills that a normal 7 foot tall person has and add that to his perimeter play. I dont think thats the case.

Again I hear talk about him playing SF, I asked like 5 times in the other thread and got no replies, so I will ask again here. Why do you think Andrea would be a good choice at SF? He cant guard SF's and having a SF guard Andrea would make him look even worse. He can barely get around bigmen and now you want him trying to go around players who are naturally quicker and whose comfort zone is guarding the perimeter which are his so called strong suits. He would be reduced to even more of a 3 point chucker.

good points on Bargs playing the three. he will give up some quickness and ball-handling no doubt. i'm not saying he needs to be able to blow by other threes all the time. maybe shoot over them and stretch the D for JO and CB once in a while...

like i said before, he would need to work on his footwork and ball-handling. i see him having more success making improvements here than in his post-up/ back to the basket game (just ugly). after all, his strengths are his passing and shooting. i see him more as a 3-4 than a 4-5. and again, rebounding won't be an issue if he's playing with two other bigs.

i think he can guard threes if he does improve in these areas, if he learns to give a little more room and use his length.

just saying i'd like to see him on the floor with CB and JO at times next season.

lukeem21
07-18-2008, 01:28 PM
2-3 zone... calderon and moon/parker... then three 7 footers (ish).... could be good

The Wise 1
07-18-2008, 04:31 PM
good points on Bargs playing the three. he will give up some quickness and ball-handling no doubt. i'm not saying he needs to be able to blow by other threes all the time. maybe shoot over them and stretch the D for JO and CB once in a while...

He hasnt proved he can hit the open 3 consistently, now you want him to start shooting with a hand in his face? The 3's would be smothering him as soon as he got the ball. I just dont see how it would be beneficial to Andrea or the team. You dont think Kapono would be better at stretching the D? There are a million other SF's out there that can stretch the D and bring a lot more to the table then Andrea at the 3.


like i said before, he would need to work on his footwork and ball-handling. i see him having more success making improvements here than in his post-up/ back to the basket game (just ugly). after all, his strengths are his passing and shooting. i see him more as a 3-4 than a 4-5. and again, rebounding won't be an issue if he's playing with two other bigs.

Couldnt agree more, I dont see him ever having a good enough post game to back down a big, yet alone a SF. I think his improvements will come with his face up game. So this leads me to my next question, if you think hes more of a 3/4 and I think hes a 4. Where does this leave him with the organization? IMO, even if he becomes good, he doesnt fit.


i think he can guard threes if he does improve in these areas, if he learns to give a little more room and use his length.

just saying i'd like to see him on the floor with CB and JO at times next season.

I just dont see it. how many 7 footers can guard SF's on a consistent basis and not get into foul trouble? I know Garnett did at the start of his career but I couldnt comment on how well he did guarding those players. Even if he did well, Garnett blows Andrea out of the water when it comes to quickness, speed, agility, length, hops and just overall IQ to get the job done. IMO its just not possible for a bigman to be able to guard those kind of players. Look at what Hedo did to Andrea in the playoffs, now just imagine Lebron, Caron and everyone else. I know people want to see it but it doesnt make us a better team.

argo
07-18-2008, 05:03 PM
He hasnt proved he can hit the open 3 consistently, now you want him to start shooting with a hand in his face? The 3's would be smothering him as soon as he got the ball. I just dont see how it would be beneficial to Andrea or the team. You dont think Kapono would be better at stretching the D? There are a million other SF's out there that can stretch the D and bring a lot more to the table then Andrea at the 3.



Couldnt agree more, I dont see him ever having a good enough post game to back down a big, yet alone a SF. I think his improvements will come with his face up game. So this leads me to my next question, if you think hes more of a 3/4 and I think hes a 4. Where does this leave him with the organization? IMO, even if he becomes good, he doesnt fit.



I just dont see it. how many 7 footers can guard SF's on a consistent basis and not get into foul trouble? I know Garnett did at the start of his career but I couldnt comment on how well he did guarding those players. Even if he did well, Garnett blows Andrea out of the water when it comes to quickness, speed, agility, length, hops and just overall IQ to get the job done. IMO its just not possible for a bigman to be able to guard those kind of players. Look at what Hedo did to Andrea in the playoffs, now just imagine Lebron, Caron and everyone else. I know people want to see it but it doesnt make us a better team.
well i do expect his 3 pt shooting to improve with confidence, and i still don't see him having a problem offensively against other SF's ("shooting with a hand in the face"? how is that different than ever before?). defense will be a challenge i'm sure, but he'll have more help inside this year.

as far as him fitting in with the organization, with the scenario's i've pointed out, i see him being able to back up JO/CB depending on match-ups, and possibly starting at the 3 - again depending on match-ups... no, not against Lebron.

yes, Kapono also stretches the D on O... but i don't see him being any better than Bargs at guarding 3's. too soft - at least AB has a bigger frame/ longer reach. Kapono looks better at SG.

i'm not saying there aren't better players out there... i'm saying that it's too early to give up on him and get nothing in return - i'm sure BC has explored trade possibilities and will continue to look at ways to improve the team.

in the meantime, let's see what AB brings to the table in year three.

_Sn1P3r_
07-18-2008, 07:12 PM
i dont think bargs will see a lot of minutes a sf; however, if he's having a good game i think he'll see critical minutes at the 3. what i mean is if the game is close down the stretch, once the timeouts start i see bargs, bosh, and oneal on offense, with moon coming into the defensive lineup after a timeout.

I agree. I could see that scenario happening. That would be a pretty good gameplan down the stretch IMO.