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R to the G
07-07-2008, 02:59 PM
With David Ortiz's health still somewhat in question, the Red Sox could be in the market for a big bat as a short-term fix. According to the Boston Herald's Tony Massarotti, the Sox are monitoring Braves first baseman Mark Teixeira, who could be dealt at the deadline if Atlanta doesn't get in the playoff hunt.

Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/thebuzz/)

redsoxfuture
07-07-2008, 03:03 PM
i wonder who it would it cost to get him. probably some from the group of bowden, lowrie, kalish, others

PapelbonLester
07-07-2008, 03:19 PM
lugo,youk,bowden.... id do it

PapelbonLester
07-07-2008, 03:21 PM
in my opinion the deal would include crisp, probably youk because tiexeria would take over first and id rather have lowell then youk. and probably a prospect or 2. no1 to amazing. maybe a david pauly or bowden

-Lavigne43-
07-07-2008, 03:21 PM
No thanks. He would cost way too much for just a rental.

bosox3431
07-07-2008, 03:23 PM
Hell no, for what they would want for half year rental. The only way I would do it is if Youk is in the deal and Tex is extended. I mean I love Youk, but Tex is better

braves790
07-07-2008, 03:24 PM
Give me a Sox prespective on a possible trade for Tex.^^^ And no we don't need Lugo. Who would you guys give up??

GrkGawdofWalkz
07-07-2008, 04:01 PM
lugo,youk,bowden.... id do it

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!! :mad: You never trade Youkilis for a short term fix.

RedSoxtober
07-07-2008, 04:04 PM
Honestly I could see a deal that would move Youk and Crisp. You get a GG 1B to take Tex's place and make up some production with Crisp. Crisp would be well suited to NL play and would give you some time for Jones to emerge, rotate in with Francoeur and Blanco... just several options. I'm not sure how strongly you feel about the needs but it seems like a decent fit.

As an alternative, you might be able to get a young arm in the deal. I'd doubt very much you'd pry away either Bowden or Masterson but there are a few lesser known arms who might make a splash. Dusty Richardson is a nice LHP with some promise, along with Pauley and Zink. The latter won't set the world on fire but would be decent innings eaters at the back of the pen.

I don't see the Sox getting too extravagant, though. They don't need a fix at either 1B or DH, particularly for a short timer. If they could hammer out an extension, though, things could get more interesting.

I can very much see the Sox in the Tex lottery in July or December (let's face it, he's a Boras boy, is there any question he goes FA?), though. With Ellsbury and Pedroia poised atop the order Youk is no longer needed where he put up his best numbers. As a 5/6 hitter he's a little short on power and Tex would be a substantial upgrade in OPS without yielding a thing in the field.

RSF1977
07-07-2008, 04:10 PM
I kinda understand what you guys are saying about Youk BUT wouldn't that be defeating the purpose of picking up Tex?
I think the only way The Sox are thinking about this is IF Papi is out for the season and so they can have another good bat in the lineup.
If you trade Youk you have essentially Traded one good bat "more expensive retal at that" for another good bat. I think the sox are looking rental here I def could and am prob wrong here.
They Way I see it is if the sox bring in Tex he will be a rental and they will move/rotate Youk/Lowell/Manny/Tex/Ellsbury/Coco/Drew through the Dh Slot.
It gives some guys a day off here and there without losing a bat.
I am not advocating for this move I think it will cost too much in the way of prospects.

Sorry for the scatterbrained post:p

RedSoxtober
07-07-2008, 04:32 PM
^^^ I agree, sorry if I wasn't clear. Even if Ortiz doesn't return I think the Sox have better options unless Tex gets signed to an extension as part of the deal. If that happens then you're trading a guy with a better OBP/OPS and similar defense, which also reinforces the Sox should they decide not to renew Manny. In either case, I think the Sox make an offseason move for Tex.

RSF1977
07-07-2008, 04:37 PM
^^^ I agree, sorry if I wasn't clear. Even if Ortiz doesn't return I think the Sox have better options unless Tex gets signed to an extension as part of the deal. If that happens then you're trading a guy with a better OBP/OPS and similar defense, which also reinforces the Sox should they decide not to renew Manny. In either case, I think the Sox make an offseason move for Tex.

I def see an off season run at Teixeira. If for no other reason to keep him away from the yankees. I say the Yankees get him though.
And I was wirting my post the same time you were RST it wasn't a response to your post.:D

RedSoxRok34
07-07-2008, 04:41 PM
personally i don't see it happening. a with ortiz out and manny DHing, all of a sudden coco isn't quite so disposable. we could part with a solid young pitcher like masterson or bowden without blinking, but keep in mind it would probably be a rental situation. the braves already tried to sign him long term and couldn't.

Tragedy
07-07-2008, 04:54 PM
lugo,youk,bowden.... id do it
LOL! Why would they take Lugo when they have Escobar? That makes very little sense.

Two things about this deal.

1) It depends on the players. He's essentially a rental player until he can sign his contract with the Yankees or Mets, so, I'm not willing to give major pieces of the future puzzle up for him.

2) What happens with David? If he's out for the rest of the year or until September, then yeah, I'm all for adding a bat. Otherwise, adding Tex and having Ortiz immediately return after would cause a logjam that might not be too fun.

KmB728
07-07-2008, 05:19 PM
I would not want to give up Youk, especially for a rental player

and i wouldnt wanna trade lowrie ( should be starting ss)

btw is he on the pawsox, or is he rotting on our bench?

Sc00py
07-07-2008, 05:34 PM
I would not want to give up Youk, especially for a rental player

and i wouldnt wanna trade lowrie ( should be starting ss)

btw is he on the pawsox, or is he rotting on our bench?

Pawsox

papipapsmanny
07-07-2008, 05:38 PM
hello he doesnt have to be a rental, we could extend him, and he is a type A free agent, offer arbitration, if he takes it great, if not we get 2 1st round draft picks

youk, crisp, adam mills for tex

ellsbury
pedrioa
ortiz
manny
tex
drew
lowell
Lowrie- **** lugo
Varitek


that would be sick

homie564
07-07-2008, 06:15 PM
to be honest... i wouldnt give youk for tex right now.... youk is my favorite player on the sox and is an unbeliveale player.... pedroia right up there on my list... and lowrie...i wouldnt trade him either... kid could be a superstar SS one day

ThreeIfBaerga
07-07-2008, 06:46 PM
to be honest... i wouldnt give youk for tex right now.... youk is my favorite player on the sox and is an unbeliveale player.... pedroia right up there on my list... and lowrie...i wouldnt trade him either... kid could be a superstar SS one day


The only reason I'd be against trading Youk off for Texiera (aside from my love of most all farm system products) is that Youk is cost controlled for the next few years. They've got him on the cheap for the next few years, where as Texiera would require a big long-term deal. If it meant the end of Manny and bringing in a LF that could match Youk's production (Pat Burrell?) I'd be all for it.

Getting Burrell on a 3/$14 mil deal would be ideal to me. They'd have a nice mix of left and right handed hitters for a lineup of

Ellsbury (L)
Pedroia (R)
Ortiz (L)
Texiera (S)
Drew (L)
Lowell (R)
Burrell (L)
Tek/replacement catcher
Lugo/replacement SS

Except for the bottom two as it currently looks to remain, that's a damn fine lineup. The LF defense hasn't been very good for the past 8 years, I don't think three more with Burrell there will really kill the team any.

I know this is kind of a mix between trade deadline (Tex) and end of season (Burrell) but it's a good way to replace Manny's production and still come out on top. I'd also be in favor of signing Tex and simply moving Youk to left. Either way I'd want Manny's option picked up and shipped off for whatever they can get for him. I'm sure some contender would want a power hitting LF/DH on a short term deal. Either LA team, the Mets, Dodgers. . . someone will need a right handed power hitter.

WilymoPena
07-07-2008, 07:02 PM
I would do it in a heartbeat. Tex is better than Youk in every possible way. If the Sox did pull the trigger, there would be a new contract in place before he joined the team. The Sox arent stupid they would def negotiate something rather quickly. That said I'm not sure it really addresses a need for the Sox at this point. I mean we already have a GG at 1b and Lowell at 3b and its debatable which 1b Tex or Youk is better defensively, I'd give the nod to Tex. I dunno Im hoping the Sox sign Bonds for the rest of the year. Doesnt cost us propects and if it doesnt work out we aren't stuck with him long term. If anything we should just try and drive the price up so noone in the division can get Tex without giving up a huge package.

tonyd3b54
07-07-2008, 07:25 PM
how much longer is lowells contract? if its short term then i would love to see tex at first and youk at 3rd..mannys getting up there in age and we need a power bat to replace him if were not gonna resign him? but for this year if we dont give up yuk he can take papis spot as a dh and put manny back in the of full time...i think its a good deal to make if all we hav to give up is pitching prospects... we hav alot of young pitchers already with beckett dicek lester bucholtz all being with the team for a long time...

ThreeIfBaerga
07-07-2008, 07:29 PM
how much longer is lowells contract? if its short term then i would love to see tex at first and youk at 3rd..mannys getting up there in age and we need a power bat to replace him if were not gonna resign him? but for this year if we dont give up yuk he can take papis spot as a dh and put manny back in the of full time...i think its a good deal to make if all we hav to give up is pitching prospects... we hav alot of young pitchers already with beckett dicek lester bucholtz all being with the team for a long time...



Lowell just signed a 3 year deal this offseason. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

quiksilver2491
07-07-2008, 09:55 PM
Why would we dish out prospects and/or our current 1st baseman for one who would only last a half a year, especially when Youk has been better at the plate this year then Tex and I would even say he is better than him defesnively by a small margin. I just don't see the point of getting Tex unless you can sign him to an extension or the FO feels we need that power bat to replace Manny.

Tragedy
07-07-2008, 10:37 PM
hello he doesnt have to be a rental, we could extend him, and he is a type A free agent, offer arbitration, if he takes it great, if not we get 2 1st round draft picks
:laugh:

Extend Tex? He's a Boras client. Keep dreaming.


Getting Burrell on a 3/$14 mil deal would be ideal to me. They'd have a nice mix of left and right handed hitters for a lineup of

Ellsbury (L)
Pedroia (R)
Ortiz (L)
Texiera (S)
Drew (L)
Lowell (R)
Burrell (L)
Tek/replacement catcher
Lugo/replacement SS
Burrell is actually a right handed batter.


how much longer is lowells contract?
He's under contract until after the 2010 season. So two more years after this.


if its short term then i would love to see tex at first and youk at 3rd..
I can't say I'm a fan of moving Youk anywhere but 1st. If he's not playing 1B, he really doesn't need to be on this team. That's where he's head over heels most useful.

bosox1899
07-08-2008, 01:51 AM
:laugh:

Extend Tex? He's a Boras client. Keep dreaming.



the red sox have a good relationship with Boras, theres a possibility they could come to a agreement that works for both sides

metsbulls1025
07-08-2008, 03:28 AM
the red sox have a good relationship with Boras, theres a possibility they could come to a agreement that works for both sides

Boras clients don't resing in the middle of the season. They always test FA. Trust me he is a rental player untill he signs that 200 million dollar contract in the offseason with the Yanks or Mets.

lil'papi
07-08-2008, 08:00 AM
The only way this gets done is if they truly believe Manny isn't worth 20mil.
I don't believe Ortiz health influences this as much as Manny does. I'd rather see them do it over the winter. I love our prospects and cost factors.

RedSoxtober
07-08-2008, 09:27 AM
The only reason I'd be against trading Youk off for Texiera (aside from my love of most all farm system products) is that Youk is cost controlled for the next few years. They've got him on the cheap for the next few years, where as Texiera would require a big long-term deal. If it meant the end of Manny and bringing in a LF that could match Youk's production (Pat Burrell?) I'd be all for it.


Youk's not as cost controlled as you suggest. He's had his only year of cheap arbitration. From here on the difference between Youk and a free agent is mainly that he cannot drive the market by talking to other clubs. What he can do is compare his performance to other players, particularly 1B, and use their contracts as a baseline for his own. This gets really out of whack for the Sox and Youk because 1B is home of many overpaid former stars who've still got some stick, or are just plain over paid (Delgado, Helton, Konerko, Sexton).

ThreeIfBaerga
07-08-2008, 11:01 AM
Youk's not as cost controlled as you suggest. He's had his only year of cheap arbitration. From here on the difference between Youk and a free agent is mainly that he cannot drive the market by talking to other clubs. What he can do is compare his performance to other players, particularly 1B, and use their contracts as a baseline for his own. This gets really out of whack for the Sox and Youk because 1B is home of many overpaid former stars who've still got some stick, or are just plain over paid (Delgado, Helton, Konerko, Sexton).



No, he can compare his contract against those of other 1b in their second year of arbitration. That's why two time 19 game winner Chein-Ming Wang is only making $4 million this year. Youk will remain cheap, markedly cheaper than Tex, through his age 32 season. Then he'll likely head off to find the only long term contract he'll get over the life of his career and the Sox will have Lars Anderson waiting in the wings.

If Tex is signed, which right now I still think is rather unlikely, I really hope they start trying Anderson out at LF. Pre-draft scouting reports had him as a rather athletic 1b who could play other positions, but having seen him run the bases, I'm not sure he'd be able to cover enough ground to play a ML caliber LF, especially in Yankee stadium.

ThreeIfBaerga
07-08-2008, 11:03 AM
Double post.

papipapsmanny
07-08-2008, 08:24 PM
yeah he is a boris client, but u know what the sox have a **** load of money lets make my case here

Teixeria is a year and a half Younger than youkilis
Teixera has a better opb with an average lower than youks, thats very good
Career numbers in average and obp are basically the same, and remember tex is younger
Oh Tex has had 30 HRs or more since the 2004 season
Tex has had over 100 RBI since the 2004 season
Remember he is only 28
Youkilis career ops +114 ............ Tex 131
Tex is actually a decent fielding 1st baseman
Again tex is 28

We have the money to extend, he could be ours for like another 6 years if we really wanted to

Again Offer arbitration, we get 2 1st round picks

this is a completely win win situation

Trade youk, Mills and bard for tex

they get a very good player in youk, a decent relief prospect, and another very good relief/SP prospect

we get a great player back

ellsbury
pedrioa
ortiz
manny
tex
drew
lowell
lowrie
tek


now give me an good argument against because i am really set on this

this reminds me of the 06 season where we really needed a bat and we all wanted soriano

loo we have a **** load of prospects, so many that when they are ready we wont be able to use them lowrie, carter, Bowden when he is ready

The cubs and brewers wanted to get better to win, and they got what theyw anted so why cant we just do the same

RedSoxtober
07-09-2008, 08:53 AM
No, he can compare his contract against those of other 1b in their second year of arbitration. That's why two time 19 game winner Chein-Ming Wang is only making $4 million this year. Youk will remain cheap, markedly cheaper than Tex, through his age 32 season. Then he'll likely head off to find the only long term contract he'll get over the life of his career and the Sox will have Lars Anderson waiting in the wings.

Wrong. Wang finished 2007 with 2.1 yrs of service but qualified as a "Super 2" which made him eligible for his first season of arbitration. That effectively matched him up with Youk who had just finished his third season, also qualifying him for his first shot at arbitration. That is why the two have very similar salaries. $4M vs $3M is a relative valuation of 1B vs SP.

Ewagner
07-09-2008, 01:46 PM
We are not getting tex and not trading yuk. if the red sox had any intention of going after tex whether during the season or after, they would not have signed lowell. they may go after tex but will only give up minor parts for him. he will not stay in boston he will be a yankee next year. youk will be a main stay in boston for a long time. think of him as the new nixon, greenwell guy. you can always upgrade but he is all you really need.

BigEric
07-09-2008, 02:31 PM
The only way I would take Tex, is if he can play SS.....but he can't. We are just fine with Youk, he puts so much heart into the game, it would be a shame to get rid of him.

Ewagner
07-09-2008, 02:41 PM
i'll give you one reason. how much is tex going to make after this year per year??? how much is youk going to make after this year per year??? everything you said is great. is it really worth all the extra cost? what you seem to miss is that if we get tex and resign him we lose manny. no big deal but now the money you were spending on youk will go to finding and OF of at least youk's calibur. hmmmmmm. i'll stay with youk and take my shot. the other thing you are missing is how will tex after he gets the contract? we now what kind of player youk will always be. is tex that same guy? numbers are great but put a number on character.

TheLogical
07-09-2008, 03:20 PM
No way, better options I would go for sean casey and a draft pick instead of youk.

asomen
07-09-2008, 03:52 PM
If I am Epstein..the only way i trade Youk is if the Cardinals won't stop annoying me about a trade Pujols for Youk.

Seriously guys...has he done anything except piss excellence in his stint with Boston. I mean for sake...he is starting in this years allstar game. He is starting over Morneau and other great firstbasemen in the AL. This guy deserves to be put in the same elite class as any other first baseball in this league.

Not only does he hit for power...but he has one of the highest i(f not highest? ) batting averages on our team. He is looking for a 100 rbi season along with around 25 homeruns. He is a gold glover and has proven his success and has rings to show it. What more can you ask from a player? He is one of the most underrated players in baseball. He doesn't get the respect he deserves.

Sorry, I just don't think we can put Youk on the trading block because there is a better option out there. Why fix something that is already great? Who is to say Teixeira won't be a bust here in Boston?

papipapsmanny
07-09-2008, 04:28 PM
i'll give you one reason. how much is tex going to make after this year per year??? how much is youk going to make after this year per year??? everything you said is great. is it really worth all the extra cost? what you seem to miss is that if we get tex and resign him we lose manny. no big deal but now the money you were spending on youk will go to finding and OF of at least youk's calibur. hmmmmmm. i'll stay with youk and take my shot. the other thing you are missing is how will tex after he gets the contract? we now what kind of player youk will always be. is tex that same guy? numbers are great but put a number on character.

who cares how much he cost is it your money??? than dont complain

Plus Tex is better than youkilis no doubt about it, dont let your blindness of being a sox fan tell u other wise

Tex is good for at least 30 hr and 100 rbi per season, and a very good obp

youk maybe 20 hrs with like 80 or 90 rbi

if your trying to argue that youk is better than tex than just stop

Tarheelguy1967
07-09-2008, 05:11 PM
who cares how much he cost is it your money??? than dont complain

Plus Tex is better than youkilis no doubt about it, dont let your blindness of being a sox fan tell u other wise

Tex is good for at least 30 hr and 100 rbi per season, and a very good obp

youk maybe 20 hrs with like 80 or 90 rbi

if your trying to argue that youk is better than tex than just stop

Sorry, but the difference in those numbers don't make me want to give up an All-Star, GG first baseman AND prospects for a 1/2 year lease. I must say I don't at all get how anyone who's a Red Sox fan would be willing to pass Youk on to another team for a short term rental, when the upgrade wouldn't be that significant. What happens at the end of the year if Tex signs with another team - and then you don't have Youk at first anymore. Naturally, we'd all love to have the best player at each position, but that's not realistic. We need a bat in case Ortiz doesn't make it back, but these scenarios seem absurd to me. I for one would hate to see Youk go - not because I'm sentimental, but because he has been ROCK solid for us for the past few years, and I think is terribly underrated for some reason unknown to me.

bagwell368
07-09-2008, 05:21 PM
There is always someone coming along...

Remember when we had to have Frank Tanana? Joe Rudi, Gagne...

Remember when we actually got some of these guys?

Mike Torrez (I had his baseball card on the underside of my toilet lid for about 3 years)

Skip Lockwood - oh man, better off not talking about him..

Matt Young...



Look, is Tex better? Sure. Is he worth the young talent and the dough to resign? I doubt it very much. Think of what you cannot get because of what Tex cost.

What about if the Sox develop a kid who is ready to play 1B every day 2 years from today... Ortiz is still the DH. And Lowell is hurt, so Youk just slides right over - or they just do the 4 guys for 3 position musical chair routine. If there is no Youk, you have to get a rent a player to cover for Lowell at 3B....

papipapsmanny
07-09-2008, 05:32 PM
well if we get tex and win the world series, than u couldnt complain at all

if we make the playoffs and lose because of lack of offense ill be complaining we didnt do this

y2shoes
07-09-2008, 05:32 PM
Youk is one of the best players on our team plus he can play third at a gold glove level as well. If we are gonna do anything we need to think about who we are gonna get to replace Manny and sure up our bull pen. I dont think Jed Lowrie is the answer if he was he would be up and playing every day instead of Alex Cora. So if you want to move Youk you are really gonna change the dynamic of the team atleat you know Youk will always play hard and aggressive plus the yankees hate him so it is great to have him on the team!

Sc00py
07-09-2008, 05:54 PM
If I am Epstein..the only way i trade Youk is if the Cardinals won't stop annoying me about a trade Pujols for Youk.

Seriously guys...has he done anything except piss excellence in his stint with Boston. I mean for sake...he is starting in this years allstar game. He is starting over Morneau and other great firstbasemen in the AL. This guy deserves to be put in the same elite class as any other first baseball in this league.

Not only does he hit for power...but he has one of the highest i(f not highest? ) batting averages on our team. He is looking for a 100 rbi season along with around 25 homeruns. He is a gold glover and has proven his success and has rings to show it. What more can you ask from a player? He is one of the most underrated players in baseball. He doesn't get the respect he deserves.

Sorry, I just don't think we can put Youk on the trading block because there is a better option out there. Why fix something that is already great? Who is to say Teixeira won't be a bust here in Boston?


Couldn't agree with you more. Youkilis is just too important to the team. Even if Tex is a good fielder too, it is way more fun watching Youk field at first.

Plus, it gives us some flexibility to move him back to third if anything happens to Lowell again.

Sc00py
07-09-2008, 05:56 PM
Youk is one of the best players on our team plus he can play third at a gold glove level as well. If we are gonna do anything we need to think about who we are gonna get to replace Manny and sure up our bull pen. I dont think Jed Lowrie is the answer if he was he would be up and playing every day instead of Alex Cora. So if you want to move Youk you are really gonna change the dynamic of the team atleat you know Youk will always play hard and aggressive plus the yankees hate him so it is great to have him on the team!

Except Cora isn't playing everyday. Lugo is. And Lugo has an awfully big contract to let him rot away on the bench. Keep Lowrie down at Pawtucket and let him get more consistent.

Sc00py
07-09-2008, 05:56 PM
Wouldn't it be confusing any ways to have Tex and Tek on the team? It hurts my head thinking about it.

bosox3431
07-09-2008, 06:14 PM
Sorry, but the difference in those numbers don't make me want to give up an All-Star, GG first baseman AND prospects for a 1/2 year lease. I must say I don't at all get how anyone who's a Red Sox fan would be willing to pass Youk on to another team for a short term rental, when the upgrade wouldn't be that significant. What happens at the end of the year if Tex signs with another team - and then you don't have Youk at first anymore. Naturally, we'd all love to have the best player at each position, but that's not realistic. We need a bat in case Ortiz doesn't make it back, but these scenarios seem absurd to me. I for one would hate to see Youk go - not because I'm sentimental, but because he has been ROCK solid for us for the past few years, and I think is terribly underrated for some reason unknown to me.

I would guarntee the Sox would not trade Youk for Tex if they couldnt come to an agreement about a contract extension. If they couldnt work one out, they wouldnt do the trade

Sc00py
07-09-2008, 11:16 PM
not going to happen.

RedSoxtober
07-10-2008, 09:19 AM
i'll give you one reason. how much is tex going to make after this year per year??? how much is youk going to make after this year per year??? everything you said is great. is it really worth all the extra cost?
Youk most likely makes somewhere in the $7-9M range in 2009, $10-12M in 2010, FA in 2011. Tex probably lands a deal in the $16-18M/yr range for 5 yrs.

Is he worth that difference? Well, in the first year the difference is not re-signing Schilling not to pitch for us. Yup, he's worth not resigning Schilling not to pitch.

In the second year it's the difference between letting Lowrie replace Cora as the superutility guy. Yup, he's worth that too.


what you seem to miss is that if we get tex and resign him we lose manny. no big deal but now the money you were spending on youk will go to finding and OF of at least youk's calibur. hmmmmmm. i'll stay with youk and take my shot.
Really? You don't think that the Sox' payroll $10M contraction might just be a preparation to expand this year? You really don't think that with more than $200M in revenue and more cashflow they couldn't sign both? Do you think they're worried about the 'luxury tax' that will jump to $155M ($22M over their current commitments) with Schilling coming off the books and cost-controlled rookies taking his place?

And what you miss is that the Sox could sign Tex with the intention of letting Manny go.


the other thing you are missing is how will tex after he gets the contract? we now what kind of player youk will always be. is tex that same guy? numbers are great but put a number on character.

Why are the Sox the only players with character? Tex has been nothing but a stand up guy with no history at all of disruptive behavior. He also shouldered the weight of leading a bad TEX team. He knows how to lead. Not better or worse than Youk, but maybe different.


Youk is one of the best players on our team plus he can play third at a gold glove level as well. If we are gonna do anything we need to think about who we are gonna get to replace Manny and sure up our bull pen. I dont think Jed Lowrie is the answer if he was he would be up and playing every day instead of Alex Cora. So if you want to move Youk you are really gonna change the dynamic of the team atleat you know Youk will always play hard and aggressive plus the yankees hate him so it is great to have him on the team!

1. Youk is a GG 1B, but nowhere near it as a 3B.
2. Tex is also a GG 1B (it took Youk's errorless streak and Tex's trade to the NL for Youk to displace him in the AL).
3. Tex also plays 3B and has more MLB innings in the OF than Youk.

lil'papi
07-10-2008, 09:55 AM
Youk can make 7-9mil next year? Never mind 10-12mil in 010?
I need proof.
I'd guess , without looking , a bump next yr in the range of 2mil. Then in 010 I'd even go 3 more mil tops....up to maybe 7-8mil per.
That doesn't include if he drops off again this year second half. If he drops off again it might be less. I'd also guess the Sox take some sting away by signing him beforehand.

I was under the impression he would get lined with other players in his grouping. Am I missing something ?

If he does we can easily absorb it anyway.

Lars Anderson will look good if that's truly the case.

Tex doesn't have baggage , but I don't see this making sense. Matt Holliday makes more sense....to replace Manny's bat.
I'm not so sure he can't hit HR's over the monster either ala Coors field. He is much bigger than Manny 6'4" 235lbs too.
I'd be much more interested in him, honestly. Not so much contract to eat either , lose Manny's , we can afford him and pay our up and comers. (youk, pedy, ells, paps, mdc)

Youk makes 10-12mil he isn't long for Boston.

lil'papi
07-10-2008, 09:59 AM
http://www.lonestarball.com/story/2007/10/23/2184/7865

RedSoxtober
07-10-2008, 11:05 AM
Youk can make 7-9mil next year? Never mind 10-12mil in 010?
I need proof.


With a year less service time (and less of a pool against which to compare himself) Cabrera won an arbitration case against FLA ($7.4M vs $6.7M). I know I'll get raked for bringing Cabrera up as a comparison but it's more about the willingness of the arbiters to grant deals. Their skill sets are clearly different: Youk is a solid OBP with GG defense while Miggy is a masher with just enough defense. Regardless, with two years of escalating salaries, an extra year of service time (bigger pool of comparison), an all star start, probably 2 GG, ... I think that Youk can make a compelling case to get into the low end of that $7-9M range. At worst take it down to $6-8M. That more or less puts him on par with what the Sox will pay Coco for similar service time (low end of the range).

In his final year of arb eligibility he's comparing to FA's. Let's say that Tex signs in NYY for the $20M he's supposedly looking for (thanks, Boras!). Is Youk half the player that Tex is? That's a layup for an agent in arb.

Aliff
07-10-2008, 12:31 PM
if they trade youk i will be very upset

Superiority
07-10-2008, 01:15 PM
there isn't a chance they trade Youkilis, a gold glover and also has enough pop in his bat to carry the Sox, for a 1/2 year rental.

R to the G
07-10-2008, 05:02 PM
But Scott Boras has already sent signals that the free-agent asking price on Teixeira this winter will start at $23 million a year (theoretically for eight to 10 years).

ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3481264&type=story)

It looks like if they did trade for Tex it could be a short term trade, but they always could sign him long term to "replace" Manny. I do doubt Tex will get 23 million a year....but you never know.

RedSoxRok34
07-10-2008, 05:50 PM
youk's not going anywhere, which means tex doesn't have a place to play, hence he isn't coming. that's what it boils down to

Celts22
07-10-2008, 09:56 PM
ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3481264&type=story)

It looks like if they did trade for Tex it could be a short term trade, but they always could sign him long term to "replace" Manny. I do doubt Tex will get 23 million a year....but you never know.

Wasnt Boras claiming last winter the bidding for A-Rod would begin at $30M?:rolleyes:

ThreeIfBaerga
07-10-2008, 10:15 PM
Wasnt Boras claiming last winter the bidding for A-Rod would begin at $30M?:rolleyes:



A-Rod will make $30 million for one season at least twice over the course of his contract. A-Rod/Boras got exactly what they wanted, and A-Rod came out looking like a hero. Boras is an absolute genius.

Celts22
07-10-2008, 10:20 PM
Except ARod said he never wanted to opt out and didnt speak to Boras during the rest of the offseason plus he only averages $26.5M/year. I dont believe its as sugar coated as your making it out to be.

97'bulls
07-10-2008, 10:43 PM
anybody know if there;s a timetable for papi yet?

cmoneytakemoney
07-10-2008, 11:22 PM
I would never trade Youkilis for Mark Teixteira in a million years. I don't care how many RBI's and homers Tex hits more than Youk. Youkilis is better defender and is younger. Youk barely ever strikes out. That would be a Dan Duquette type of trade because Youk is improving every year and is going to be an all star for the next 10 years probably. DO NOT TRADE YOUK FOR ANYONE PLEASE. IT WOULD BE A DISASTER_

Celts22
07-10-2008, 11:26 PM
I would never trade Youkilis for Mark Teixteira in a million years. I don't care how many RBI's and homers Tex hits more than Youk. Youkilis is better defender and is younger. Youk barely ever strikes out. That would be a Dan Duquette type of trade because Youk is improving every year and is going to be an all star for the next 10 years probably. DO NOT TRADE YOUK FOR ANYONE PLEASE. IT WOULD BE A DISASTER_

You sure about that?:eyebrow:

Teixiera: Age 28
Youkilis: Age 29

Teixiera also has won more gold gloves than Youk as well

celticfan
07-11-2008, 07:30 AM
If Teixiera signs for a 5 year deal. then I would not mind trading youk, maybe Bowden, Lugo, and willie middlebrooks or another infielder.

celticfan
07-11-2008, 08:01 AM
think Dunn could fit in here nicely?

celticfan
07-11-2008, 08:02 AM
or Holliday

lil'papi
07-11-2008, 08:18 AM
With a year less service time (and less of a pool against which to compare himself) Cabrera won an arbitration case against FLA ($7.4M vs $6.7M). I know I'll get raked for bringing Cabrera up as a comparison but it's more about the willingness of the arbiters to grant deals. Their skill sets are clearly different: Youk is a solid OBP with GG defense while Miggy is a masher with just enough defense. Regardless, with two years of escalating salaries, an extra year of service time (bigger pool of comparison), an all star start, probably 2 GG, ... I think that Youk can make a compelling case to get into the low end of that $7-9M range. At worst take it down to $6-8M. That more or less puts him on par with what the Sox will pay Coco for similar service time (low end of the range).

In his final year of arb eligibility he's comparing to FA's. Let's say that Tex signs in NYY for the $20M he's supposedly looking for (thanks, Boras!). Is Youk half the player that Tex is? That's a layup for an agent in arb.

Well you're correct lousy comparison. :D

He is making 3.0mil now. A bump of 3-5 mil seems way too steep. Remember this guy has tailed off every year. He has no where near the power/rbi potential either. Defensively you can't compare them at different positions , but if you stuck Youk in the OF it's really close. If you stick him at third Youk isn't a major upgrade or one we can even make based on limited time there.

So I'm sticking to a 2mil jump. The 010 season he might make some hay if he doesn't tail off dramatically.

Not sold, good try though. ;)

For those who wouldn't trade him for Tex (if its a sign and trade) are nuts. Tex has it all over Youk...I am a Youk fan. Go look at numbers.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/youklke01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/teixema01.shtml

Money not considered. Tex ain't gettin 20mil either....16-18 tops...... he might get a 4-5 yr deal though considering his age. Oh' and Borass got his heiney smoked by ARod and lost credibility. Him saying anything now to gain advantage is much hollower (is that word?)

Tragedy
07-11-2008, 10:59 AM
You sure about that?:eyebrow:

Teixiera: Age 28
Youkilis: Age 29

Teixiera also has won more gold gloves than Youk as well
Gold Gloves has nothing to do with who is a better fielder. And anyways, Tex has had more opportunities to win one, if you wanted to get serious about that discussion.

SHONIE
07-11-2008, 11:22 AM
boston loves youk. They won't trade him.

quiksilver2491
07-11-2008, 11:39 AM
Kevin Youkilis - .319/BA .555/SLG .386/OBP 144/OPS+
Mark Teixeira - .272/BA .488/SLG .378/OBP 131 OPS+

Youk beats Tex in pretty much every major statistical hitting category this year, I just don't understand why we would downgrade from a cheap player we have control of for a few more years to a guy that is playing worse and will have to receive a huge pay check at years end. Defensively I think Youk is better by a hair but they are very close, deffinitely two of the best defensive first basemen in the league.

bballplayer8432
07-11-2008, 11:47 AM
All i hope for is they can somehow include Julio Lugo in this trade. Theyll probably end up giving up a pitching prospect maybe Masterson. A good as he is and as much as i love him, Mike Lowells not going to be around much longer maybe we can include him also. Chippers been injured a lot lately and maybe they can put chipper back in the outfield or they can give chipper frequent days off to rest him. Our infield will consist of Teixeira Pedroia Lowrie and Youkilis. You cant argue that our infields going to be sick!!

asomen
07-11-2008, 12:01 PM
Kevin Youkilis - .319/BA .555/SLG .386/OBP 144/OPS+
Mark Teixeira - .272/BA .488/SLG .378/OBP 131 OPS+

Youk beats Tex in pretty much every major statistical hitting category this year, I just don't understand why we would downgrade from a cheap player we have control of for a few more years to a guy that is playing worse and will have to receive a huge pay check at years end. Defensively I think Youk is better by a hair but they are very close, deffinitely two of the best defensive first basemen in the league.

Not trying to put you down...because I am a huge Youk fan myself...but you did forget to mention 2 huge categories in hitting in Homeruns and RBI's...which teixeira is beating him in...rather a large margain as well.

BoSox2212
07-11-2008, 12:47 PM
Kevin Youkilis - .319/BA .555/SLG .386/OBP 144/OPS+
Mark Teixeira - .272/BA .488/SLG .378/OBP 131 OPS+

Youk beats Tex in pretty much every major statistical hitting category this year, I just don't understand why we would downgrade from a cheap player we have control of for a few more years to a guy that is playing worse and will have to receive a huge pay check at years end. Defensively I think Youk is better by a hair but they are very close, deffinitely two of the best defensive first basemen in the league.

Don't forget the point that Texiera is normally a second half player, while Youk does tend to tail off towards the end of the season. Wait for the end of season stats, along with the HR and RBIs, and see where they compare.

lavell12
07-11-2008, 03:54 PM
Brave fan: Youkilis and Bucholz and we have a deal.

matthewredskin3
07-11-2008, 04:51 PM
If Tex could sign an extension I would trade Youk, but I'd rather not. I would defintly trade 2 prospects, Bowden and Pauley or Moss and Bailey else, but no Bucholz or Ellsbury, or Lowrie. I wish Lugo could be a part of thsi trade but theres no way we trade him because of his salary. I don't see this trade happening but I hope it does.

terriblemente69
07-11-2008, 04:55 PM
Brave fan: Youkilis and Bucholz and we have a deal.

No way, Teixeira is a rental and Buchholz will be in Boston for a long time

RedSoxRok34
07-11-2008, 05:56 PM
Brave fan: Youkilis and Bucholz and we have a deal.

i think its clear by now buchholz isn't going anywhere

scottyc04901
07-11-2008, 05:57 PM
I don't see the Sox giving up prospects for a one year rental

quiksilver2491
07-11-2008, 09:42 PM
Not trying to put you down...because I am a huge Youk fan myself...but you did forget to mention 2 huge categories in hitting in Homeruns and RBI's...which teixeira is beating him in...rather a large margain as well.

Homeruns and RBI's are found in the stats I posted. I wouldn't include those stats by them self though because that isn't doing anything to the arguement, unless they both have the EXACT same number of AB's you can't compare counting stats.


Don't forget the point that Texiera is normally a second half player, while Youk does tend to tail off towards the end of the season. Wait for the end of season stats, along with the HR and RBIs, and see where they compare.

But we aren't trading for Tex at the end of the season, we would be trading for him sometime in the near future. Anyways I don't think Tex has played nearly enough seasons to call him a second half player, you would have to play for like 15+ seasons and have an obvious trend towards the second half to get that title. Again same with Youk, he has played what 3 full seasons? Not nearly a big enough sample size to say he will fizzle out, I think he is going to keep it going strong through out the season.

lil'papi
07-12-2008, 08:40 AM
This trade simply doesn't pass the common sense test. We have to make moves to make a move. Not gonna happen.

Youk isn't hurting us. SS is and catcher , nevermind the BP.

Why go get a position we are strong in.

Unless its to release Manny.

-Lavigne43-
07-14-2008, 12:01 AM
Peter Gammons just said that the Braves offered Teixeira to Boston for Youkilis and Craig Hanson, and the Sox said NO. he thinks the Braves will have a tough time getting a lot but that he is available.

That is from the Braves forum

Tragedy
07-14-2008, 12:13 AM
That is from the Braves forum
:laugh:

So we're going to give up Kevin Youkilis, who is having a GREAT year offensively, for a guy that we'll have for a half of a season before he heads to one of the NY teams?

Yeah, that makes PERFECT sense for us.

asomen
07-14-2008, 03:12 PM
I am going to be the first to admit...I am shocked. I thought the rumblings in this forum about Youk and Teixeira were all just hopefull Sox fans like myself being greety. But after reading this...WHAT???

Braves offered Teixeira for Youk and Hansen but the Sox decline. I am starting to think that if the Braves make it a good deal for the Sox it might make them actually consider it...i am nervous. I don't want Youk to go anywhere.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/07/braves-offered.html

PapelbonLester
07-14-2008, 03:26 PM
if we made that deal then you could put up the 08 world series banner

Raidaz4Life
07-14-2008, 03:31 PM
I don't mind at all to be honest, Youk has a bright future

Raidaz4Life
07-14-2008, 03:35 PM
:laugh:

So we're going to give up Kevin Youkilis, who is having a GREAT year offensively, for a guy that we'll have for a half of a season before he heads to one of the NY teams?

Yeah, that makes PERFECT sense for us.

my thoughts exactly

MinnesotaSoxfan
07-14-2008, 03:56 PM
If this deal were to happen there had better be two things, #1 a long term deal in place with Tex and #2 some other deals for relief help.

asomen
07-14-2008, 04:02 PM
If this deal were to happen there had better be two things, #1 a long term deal in place with Tex and #2 some other deals for relief help.

I agree...if I am Epstein the only way I make this deal is if I talk to Teixeira before landing the deal and saying..."are you willing to sign a long term extension with Boston asap." If he is hesitant to do so or doesn't agree than the deal does not go down.

MinnesotaSoxfan
07-14-2008, 04:10 PM
exactly Youk is under our control for 4 or 5 more years and we don't want to deal a player like him without getting his replacement for at least the same time.

sboyajian
07-14-2008, 05:22 PM
I like youk.. but I am ok with this, again, if we can lock up Tex for at least 4 or 5 years.

gcoll
07-14-2008, 06:25 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Tex.

He's gonna want a huge deal. He's a roider.....pass.

J-DAWGS SOX
07-14-2008, 06:58 PM
i like tex as much as everyone else, but i say no to this trade. right now youk has better numbers than tex. youk has turned out to be an awesome ball player. he can hit, get on base, and play anywhere u want to put him..1b,3b, and of. if we do this i would def. miss youk, but welcome tex reluctantly.

BoSox2212
07-14-2008, 07:13 PM
:laugh:

So we're going to give up Kevin Youkilis, who is having a GREAT year offensively, for a guy that we'll have for a half of a season before he heads to one of the NY teams?

Yeah, that makes PERFECT sense for us.

Obviously we wouldn't make the deal without signing Tex to a long-term deal, which I admit would be difficult. I say take the offered trade in a second if you can sign Tex. Youk will break down at the end of the year as he always does.

cocossox
07-14-2008, 07:14 PM
I'd say YES to this then run like a stole a doz. eggs :D

youkilisallstar
07-14-2008, 07:20 PM
I'd have to say no on this trade I'd like to see Youk with the sox for his whole career. I'm gonna be ticked if they trade him.

jcs88
07-14-2008, 07:53 PM
If I were the Sox I would not deal Youk, he's been successful in Boston and fits in perfectly with the team. The Sox have a good thing going with Youk, why would they screw it up?

Nickday
07-14-2008, 07:55 PM
I wouldn't say no to dealing Youks. Just not for Tex. I'd want someone younger, who puts up similar production. Not the same age with basically the same production at a lot more money...

jcs88
07-14-2008, 08:03 PM
I wouldn't say no to dealing Youks. Just not for Tex. I'd want someone younger, who puts up similar production. Not the same age with basically the same production at a lot more money...

Well actually I'd say Teixeira is an overall more productive player than Youkilis, it's just that, yeah, Teixeira would be more expensive, and also Youk contributes to the great team chemistry that team has. That team plays so well together, I dont think it would help to shake it up like that.

Sportfan
07-14-2008, 08:54 PM
you guys are crazy. even if we lose texeria after this year we have a great power hitter in lars anderson and we would get 2 first round picks in the draft. And if we keep him he would be a great replacement for manny if he leaves and what if papi struggles when he comes back. hansen can't get anyone out and as good as youk can be he will never be as good as texeria

Nickday
07-14-2008, 08:59 PM
thats one of reasons why i want youks here. when he's done, and backup material, anderson's ready... if we get tex, we'd need to sign him long term, hurting anderson's future

Sportfan
07-14-2008, 09:19 PM
thats one of reasons why i want youks here. when he's done, and backup material, anderson's ready... if we get tex, we'd need to sign him long term, hurting anderson's future

i just think that if we want to win it all we need to make a move after what the cubs did(who before the trade were argubaly the best team in baseball) and maybe if we throw in a charlie zink or an extra pitcher maybe we could get a decent reliever maybe will Ohman. (he's a lefty with a 2.77 era)

CityofChamps924
07-14-2008, 10:19 PM
Player A is batting .314 with 15 HR and 63 RBI and an OPS of .933. Player B is batting .271 with 17 HR and 69 RBI and an OPS of .858.

Player A is obviously Youkillis, who is 29, won a gold glove last year, made the all star team, has an OPS of .933, and is a whole lot cheaper. Player B is Teixeira who is 28 and will cost us top prospects as well as a boat load of money to resign him. As sexy as Teix's name is, this deal just doesn't make sense when you actually look at it. (I know Teix has a history of doing well in the second half and Youk doesn't, but I still don't think it is worth it.)

RdSxFn38
07-14-2008, 11:04 PM
Player A is batting .314 with 15 HR and 63 RBI and an OPS of .933. Player B is batting .271 with 17 HR and 69 RBI and an OPS of .858.

Player A is obviously Youkillis, who is 29, won a gold glove last year, made the all star team, has an OPS of .933, and is a whole lot cheaper. Player B is Teixeira who is 28 and will cost us top prospects as well as a boat load of money to resign him. As sexy as Teix's name is, this deal just doesn't make sense when you actually look at it. (I know Teix has a history of doing well in the second half and Youk doesn't, but I still don't think it is worth it.)

I agree with you that it is not worth it. But, if that proposed deal is true, he wouldn't cost us top prospects. Youk is not a prospect anymore, and Hansen has been inconsistent throughout the whole season. If anything we would gain 2 draft picks (eventual prospects), if he did not resign with us. I do want youk to stay tho. I just remembered this... didn't we almost trade youk and delcarmen and maybe tavarez for helton last year? I thought we almost completed that trade, but we didn't want to give up Delcarmen. I think Tex is better than Helton at the stages they are in at their careers. Anyways, I hope we keep Youk.

bballplayer8432
07-14-2008, 11:14 PM
who else do u think theyd take instead of youk?

Tragedy
07-14-2008, 11:25 PM
who else do u think theyd take instead of youk?
Who really cares, though?

Where does Tex play? 1B where Youkilis is? OF where it's clogged up? DH where Ortiz will be?

No thank you. Not worth it. Move on. Let the NY teams have him after the season.

Tragedy
07-14-2008, 11:29 PM
Obviously we wouldn't make the deal without signing Tex to a long-term deal, which I admit would be difficult. I say take the offered trade in a second if you can sign Tex. Youk will break down at the end of the year as he always does.
So.

1) We give up Kevin Youkilis. A fantastic defender, under 30 years old, great teammate as far as we can see, has the fire that Boston loves, and is having a monster season.

2) We give up Hansen. Potential is still there, but he's expendable.

So.....

3) We get Texeira. Not having as good of a year offensively as Kevin Youkilis. He's a year under Youk's belt, but he's going to cost at least $100 million to lock up, which likely wouldn't happen until after the season when you factor in the Scott Boras dilemma.

How does this make us a better team THIS year?

PeteyDoesKarate
07-14-2008, 11:38 PM
The only way that deal happens from a Sox perspective is if Teixiera took a contract extension that wasn't any more than what Lowell got, which is roughly what his current 1-year deal with Atlanta is worth. I think Teix would want more and could get more than that on the open market (Yankees anyone?.) Youk is going to have virtually identical power numbers at the end of the year and cost a lot less, I see no reason to take that kind of chance when you might end up with a hole in a very solid lineup come november.

R to the G
07-14-2008, 11:43 PM
So.

3) We get Texeira. Not having as good of a year offensively as Kevin Youkilis. He's a year under Youk's belt, but he's going to cost at least $100 million to lock up, which likely wouldn't happen until after the season when you factor in the Scott Boras dilemma.



This is the main problem I see with any deal. Like stated many times, he's likely to hit free agency market. And let's just say the Yankees and/or Mets don't make the playoffs. The money they would then throw at Teixeria would go up, so the Red Sox would be without a 1st baseman and would either have to pay high on Teixeria in a bidding war or trade for someone.

JHG722
07-14-2008, 11:45 PM
I'd cry if Youk were dealt...

Tragedy
07-14-2008, 11:51 PM
This is the main problem I see with any deal. Like stated many times, he's likely to hit free agency market. And let's just say the Yankees and/or Mets don't make the playoffs. The money they would then throw at Teixeria would go up, so the Red Sox would be without a 1st baseman and would either have to pay high on Teixeria in a bidding war or trade for someone.
Exactly! And that's why I'm not understanding how any Red Sox fans are WILLING to trade Youkilis for Tex. A guy that will be here for years to come (And cheap) against a guy that's going to cost $15+ million a year for the next 5-8 (And he might not even be re-signed to begin with)?

It's a no brainer. It'd be a little different if, by a large margin, Tex was better.

sboyajian
07-14-2008, 11:53 PM
Well the comment of "We have Lars Anderson" was just ludicrous.. you don't trade youk for a rental player in hopes of bringing up Lars..

If Tex can't be locked up prior to the deal, no way jose.. and the deal better include a fantastic MR or decent C prospect.

Run Gardner Run
07-14-2008, 11:57 PM
Epstein is a smart man, he will work something in your favor, he always does.

Tragedy
07-15-2008, 12:07 AM
Epstein is a smart man, he will work something in your favor, he always does.
So, an Eric Gagne trade is in order this summer as well?!:cry:

JHG722
07-15-2008, 12:11 AM
So, an Eric Gagne trade is in order this summer as well?!:cry:

And the signing of Freddy Garcia.

bosox3431
07-15-2008, 01:51 AM
If Tex is locked up for 4-6 years, Im all for it. But I dont want a half year rental

gcoll
07-15-2008, 01:56 AM
If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Plus. I don't want to spend that much money, on a guy who right now, is having a down year.

Run Gardner Run
07-15-2008, 03:28 AM
So, an Eric Gagne trade is in order this summer as well?!:cry:

1 of few mistakes.

-Lavigne43-
07-15-2008, 04:11 AM
The Gagne trade was fine. No one expected things to turn out how they did.

lil'papi
07-15-2008, 09:24 AM
The Gagne trade wasn't fine!

But we obviously are driving from the backseat now. Theo has his warts lets not go there. His strengths have been the farm system upgrades.

He has good and bad. Next few years we will see just how good he is with Papi -Manny aging and Tek.

I'll reserve judgement until then. We do have a couple flags waving.;)

ZHawk1123
07-15-2008, 09:46 AM
Theo is fine... When the Gagne trade was made... No one was saying:

"OMG NO! What is he doing? Are you kidding me?? GAGNE??"

No... Nobody was... He was good at that point... And we were about to have the most dominant relief ever...

No one could have predicted he'd be as bad as he was...

MinnesotaSoxfan
07-15-2008, 10:04 AM
as mentioned in several posts previously I think the only way this deal were to happen would be if Tex were to agree to a contract extension prior to a deal. With that being said I think this deal has about a 10% chance of actually happening.

Besides that I would prefer to see the Sox and Rox become trading partners for Matt Holliday. Another bat and outfielder which makes Coco expendable or Brandon Moss plus it gives the Sox the opportunity to let Manny walk at the end of the year. The only problem I see is where to play Holliday when Manny and Papi (hoping he comes back healthy) are in the lineup at the same time.

Tragedy
07-15-2008, 10:07 AM
Besides that I would prefer to see the Sox and Rox become trading partners for Matt Holliday. Another bat and outfielder which makes Coco expendable or Brandon Moss plus it gives the Sox the opportunity to let Manny walk at the end of the year. The only problem I see is where to play Holliday when Manny and Papi (hoping he comes back healthy) are in the lineup at the same time.
Depending on what we were to give up for Holliday, I'd probably be for it. I'm a guy that is always crying about his home/road splits, because they're clearly better at home. But his swing is made for a park like Fenway, so I think he would have a blast hitting over 80 games a year here.

But yes, then comes the problem of where he plays the rest of this season. If Ortiz is out for the year (Doubtful), it becomes far easier. If he's healthy, it's going to be very difficult shuffling things up on a daily basis. But getting Holliday creates a perfect bridge from Manny to Holliday (As long as Holliday is extended/re-signed).

Tarheelguy1967
07-15-2008, 10:16 AM
I'd say YES to this then run like a stole a doz. eggs :D

Then thank goodness you're not Epstein, because this would not be a good deal for Boston w/o a guaranteed extension. And then it's just a maybe. As others have mentioned, 1B is a strength for us not a weakness. If this trade happens, then I imagine some bad news has come back about Ortiz. This would be sort of a desperation trade to get a bat to replace Big Papi that the team feels it would need to contend. Otherwise, the Sox should stick to fixing problems such as the bullpen, possibly SS (although w/ Lugo's contract I don't see that happening) and possibly an upgrade at the backup catcher position. My thoughts!

ccspence8
07-16-2008, 12:05 PM
So, an Eric Gagne trade is in order this summer as well?!:cry:

I love how everyone *****es and complains about this trade, we didn't even lose anything. Murphy was sittin in AAA at 26 years old there was no spot for him like Moss. Gabbard wouldn't even be in the Sox rotation, so quit crying about this trade.

Shaiza
07-16-2008, 12:07 PM
I love how everyone *****es and complains about this trade, we didn't even lose anything. Murphy was sittin in AAA at 26 years old there was no spot for him like Moss. Gabbard wouldn't even be in the Sox rotation, so quit crying about this trade.

Thank you.
I mean honestly, many people including myself thought this was a good deal. I even thought that it would bolster our bullpen. It just didn't work out that's all. But people **** on this trade like they knew it'd happen the way it did.

Tragedy
07-16-2008, 02:58 PM
I love how everyone *****es and complains about this trade, we didn't even lose anything. Murphy was sittin in AAA at 26 years old there was no spot for him like Moss. Gabbard wouldn't even be in the Sox rotation, so quit crying about this trade.
You don't notice sarcasm, do you?

ccspence8
07-16-2008, 03:24 PM
This thread is dead IMO. There is no reason to talk about Teixeira in a Sox uniform BEFORE the trading deadline. To be honest there are just some players that the Sox really covet and the names never seem to go away. Maybe in the offseason we take a shot but there is no reason to trade Youk, Coco and a prospect for him.

These 2 players are almost identical in stats. Teixeira has better power but besides that its pretty much identical. Your not going to give up Youk and then sum for a rental. Even if the trade includes a contract extension I still don't think they do this trade. Youk will be making far less money than Tex for at least 2-3 more years.

If you want to talk about trades that will make sense it would have to include Fuentes and/or Holliday.

JPapelbon58
07-16-2008, 05:09 PM
Ortiz is coming back the 25th, so there is no reason to go and get tex. i think we should trade coco and some prospects to Colorado for Holliday and him and ellsbury could switch off in center field or something. Once manny retires we could have Holliday take over his spot, which would be great

Wake's Fastball
07-16-2008, 05:14 PM
Ortiz is coming back the 25th, so there is no reason to go and get tex. i think we should trade coco and some prospects to Colorado for Holliday and him and ellsbury could switch off in center field or something. Once manny retires we could have Holliday take over his spot, which would be great

Besides the fact that Holliday would cost an arm and a leg more than Coco, he's really not worth what the Rockies are asking; his splits away from Coors are terrible, and it's also entirely counterproductive to have him splitting him with Ellsbury.

cocossox
07-16-2008, 08:46 PM
If Tex is locked up for 4-6 years, Im all for it. But I dont want a half year rentalI agree i dont brlieve the FO would makea deal like that unless Tex is locked up first

cocossox
07-16-2008, 08:47 PM
If Tex is locked up for 4-6 years, Im all for it. But I dont want a half year rentalI agree i dont brlieve the FO would makea deal like that unless Tex is locked up first

Lord Byron 34
07-16-2008, 09:16 PM
Ortiz is coming back the 25th, so there is no reason to go and get tex. i think we should trade coco and some prospects to Colorado for Holliday and him and ellsbury could switch off in center field or something. Once manny retires we could have Holliday take over his spot, which would be great

Coco for Holliday? An all-star for a 4th outfielder?

My trade idea:
COL gets: Masterson, Lowrie, Hansen, Moss
BOS gets: Holliday, Fuentes
Colorado gets Masterson (a sinkerballer who would be perfect for Coors), Lowrie to play 2nd base, Hansen who still has a little potential left, and Moss, who could be a solid outfielder. More importantly, all have less than a year of MLB service (not sure about Hansen, but I think he does). Boston gets Holliday (Manny's eventual replacement in LF) and a good lefty set-up man to use instead of Okajima.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be enough to get Holliday. These Sox prospects are certainly better than the draft picks COL would get if Holliday walks as a FA. It might be heavy on the prospects for Theo, but I don't think Lowrie is an MLB SS, and they already have Pedroia, and Hansen and Moss are expendable. The loss of Masterson would hurt, but you have to give up something to get something (see Ramirez, Hanley).

lil'papi
07-17-2008, 09:23 AM
Coco for Holliday? An all-star for a 4th outfielder?

My trade idea:
COL gets: Masterson, Lowrie, Hansen, Moss
BOS gets: Holliday, Fuentes
Colorado gets Masterson (a sinkerballer who would be perfect for Coors), Lowrie to play 2nd base, Hansen who still has a little potential left, and Moss, who could be a solid outfielder. More importantly, all have less than a year of MLB service (not sure about Hansen, but I think he does). Boston gets Holliday (Manny's eventual replacement in LF) and a good lefty set-up man to use instead of Okajima.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be enough to get Holliday. These Sox prospects are certainly better than the draft picks COL would get if Holliday walks as a FA. It might be heavy on the prospects for Theo, but I don't think Lowrie is an MLB SS, and they already have Pedroia, and Hansen and Moss are expendable. The loss of Masterson would hurt, but you have to give up something to get something (see Ramirez, Hanley).

Solid idea. ;)

I'm not sold Holliday can't hit at Fenway. I'm also not sure the Rockies are shopping him at this point. I'd say they probably will next year at this time or maybe over the winter.

We could strike then. I also believe thats the main reason Manny is spouting off. He is worried they don't extend him. He isn't some happy go lucky guy unless he knows he is being paid 20mil per.

What he said is ridiculous why would the FO tell him anything. They have leverage , he signed the deal. Screw him at this point. Lets see him perform. They earned that right , not Manny! Spoiled comes to mind you GOT paid handsomely for the last 8 yrs , no?

relax hit the ball things take care of themselves.



TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
Home Colorado Rockies 41 163 34 60 13 2 9 37 104 20 33 5 0 .441 .638 .368
Away Colorado Rockies 38 146 18 44 8 0 5 14 67 22 26 8 1 .400 .459 .301

Fenway would become his Coors field , imo.

MinnesotaSoxfan
07-17-2008, 11:59 AM
I like the idea of trading for Holliday and have been supporting that idea for a while it not only would give us some help offensively but provide support in case Papi isnt right but also gives us a cheaper better defensive, younger, option for many at the end of the year. I don't think the FO is going to pick up Manny's option he has declined the last two years and I think they view that as a sign.

The problem comes with what to do with him in the outfield I like the idea of moving Drew to CF and letting Holliday play RF.

Pedroia 2B
Drew CF
Ortiz DH
Manny LF
Holliday RF
Lowell 3B
Youk 1B
Varitek C
Lugo SS

Ellsbury can rotate through the outfield to spell players when they need a rest which lets him still play but learn as well.

And as for the splits for Holliday at home and on the road, at Coors the ball flies out of the ball park thus helping his home run total and Fenway has the Moster which should balance things out. Besides I think Holliday hit well at Fenway last year during the regular season, didnt he have a GS off Beckett?

knittingmill
07-17-2008, 12:16 PM
i don't think we know what player youks can develop into. i'm surprised by his 16 HR and his 63 rbi are the most on the team and he ain't battin' cleanup. i think he's driven to perfection. look how he adapted to 1st base. let's see if he tapers off in the 2nd half that's been his only weakness. with casey doing so well maybe we can spell him some more. and as 3b is harder to fill youks can go there when lowell's done.

sboyajian
07-17-2008, 12:35 PM
i don't think we know what player youks can develop into. i'm surprised by his 16 HR and his 63 rbi are the most on the team and he ain't battin' cleanup. i think he's driven to perfection. look how he adapted to 1st base. let's see if he tapers off in the 2nd half that's been his only weakness. with casey doing so well maybe we can spell him some more. and as 3b is harder to fill youks can go there when lowell's done.

I can't tell if you are saying he is leading the team in HR and RBI's or just suprised by the HR's and he's leading in RBI's..

Manny and Drew both have more HR's.

knittingmill
07-17-2008, 06:52 PM
just suprised by the HR's and he's leading in RBI's..

The Intimidator
07-17-2008, 08:02 PM
Teixeira's not coming here, and neither is Holliday. Teixeira is not needed, seeing that Youk is on pace to hit 25 homeruns, drive in 105 runs, hit well above .300, and, oh yeah, play gold glove defense. Holliday would be a nice addition, but there is nowhere to put him, and the price for him will be too high. I really don't think that Holliday is even on the market right now, because he is signed through 2009. The Rox would have to be blown away by an offer to deal him away.

kRispy
07-17-2008, 10:44 PM
You guys actually think you deserve Tex? Muhaha

oh please.

ZHawk1123
07-17-2008, 10:58 PM
You guys actually think you deserve Tex? Muhaha

oh please.

:eyebrow:

Lame.

knittingmill
07-18-2008, 07:51 AM
big papi went long last night. texeira can kiss my ...

bagwell368
07-18-2008, 08:21 AM
You guys actually think you deserve Tex? Muhaha

oh please.

"deserves got nothing to do with it" - William Munny (Clint Eastwood)

lil'papi
07-18-2008, 09:58 AM
"deserves got nothing to do with it" - William Munny (Clint Eastwood)


You went ahead and made my day......:p

Tragedy
07-18-2008, 10:53 AM
You guys actually think you deserve Tex? Muhaha

oh please.
:laugh:

What does this even mean?

IceMan360
07-18-2008, 11:20 AM
You guys actually think you deserve Tex? Muhaha

oh please.

:rolleyes:

Loser.... anyways it was good to hear that Ortiz went deep yesterday. I'm already drooling ova how good this line up is gonna be wen he gets back.

The Intimidator
07-18-2008, 02:18 PM
^^^Agreed. Let's not forget that this lineup has been fully intact for only 13 games this season, due to injuries to Lowell, Papi, and various days off. Now that Lugo's out for a while, the lineup should look like this upon Ortiz's return:

1. Ellsbury-CF
2. Pedroia-2B
3. Ortiz-DH
4. Ramirez-LF
5. Drew-RF
6. Lowell-3B
7. Youkilis-1B
8. Varitek-C
9. Lowrie/Cora-SS

I like the look of that. Lowell and Drew will probably rotate through that 5 hole, and when you have Youkilis hitting close to .320 in the 7 hole, you know that we could be scoring a lot of runs.

lil'papi
07-19-2008, 09:26 AM
^^^Agreed. Let's not forget that this lineup has been fully intact for only 13 games this season, due to injuries to Lowell, Papi, and various days off. Now that Lugo's out for a while, the lineup should look like this upon Ortiz's return:

1. Ellsbury-CF
2. Pedroia-2B
3. Ortiz-DH
4. Ramirez-LF
5. Drew-RF
6. Lowell-3B
7. Youkilis-1B
8. Varitek-C
9. Lowrie/Cora-SS

I like the look of that. Lowell and Drew will probably rotate through that 5 hole, and when you have Youkilis hitting close to .320 in the 7 hole, you know that we could be scoring a lot of runs.


Sean Casey : .370 coming off the bench....:D

Noles3490
07-19-2008, 11:07 AM
I def see an off season run at Teixeira. If for no other reason to keep him away from the yankees. I say the Yankees get him though.
And I was wirting my post the same time you were RST it wasn't a response to your post.:D
Theres no way Tex ends up with the Yankees. They already have plenty of 1B and a couple of potential DH's. Giambi, Betemit, and Big Sexy.

I would never give up Youk for a rental, even if it was for Tex.
We need a SS. Cora and Lugo are both dreadful.
BRING BACK NOMAR!!!!

KB24PG16
07-19-2008, 04:19 PM
do it

metsbulls1025
07-19-2008, 04:34 PM
Braves fans don't seem to realize how hard it will be to trade Tex. You guys don't need him, Yanks just got Sexson. D Backs just brought back Tony Clark and the Angles really don't need to make a trade. It also doesn't help Boras is his agent and he will likely walk.

cocossox
07-19-2008, 06:09 PM
Theres no way Tex ends up with the Yankees. They already have plenty of 1B and a couple of potential DH's. Giambi, Betemit, and Big Sexy.

I would never give up Youk for a rental, even if it was for Tex.
We need a SS. Cora and Lugo are both dreadful.
BRING BACK NOMAR!!!!not nomar, lets bring back OC then I'll be happy!:D

bosox3431
07-19-2008, 08:07 PM
Lets just eat 80 percent of whats left on lugos contract, trade him for some batting practice balls, and play lowrie, he cant do any worst

Manny Paplfavre
07-19-2008, 08:29 PM
I read somewhere that the Sox already rejected a Youk and Hanson for Tex trade.

cocossox
07-19-2008, 11:01 PM
Lets just eat 80 percent of whats left on lugos contract, trade him for some batting practice balls, and play lowrie, he cant do any worstHey here's an idea, how bout we see if we can con the dogers into taking Lugo back & we get Nomar? lol just kidding doger fans hate Lugo just as much as sox fans he only played there a 1/2 of a season but if i recall he sucked it up then too.

GrkGawdofWalkz
07-20-2008, 08:02 AM
Here's an idea, If everyone wants a power hitter so bad, going after someone like Jason Bay for Left field if Manny Ramirez makes more sense. Youkilis, who begrugingly is my favorite player is having his second solid year in a row. He won't cost what 19 or 20M that Teixeira will make this offseason.

Super.
07-20-2008, 09:57 AM
wy on Earth do you people want to trade Kevin Youkilis! HE is so far in his career the BEST DEFENSIVE first basmen IN THE HISTORY of MLB! another thing....yea Youk is leading the team in RBI'S!

RedSoxtober
07-21-2008, 08:10 AM
Teixeira's not coming here, and neither is Holliday. Teixeira is not needed, seeing that Youk is on pace to hit 25 homeruns, drive in 105 runs, hit well above .300, and, oh yeah, play gold glove defense.
Do you have any idea who the (perennial) reigning GG was at 1B when Youk won? The same guy whose lifetime avg is the same as Youk, has a better OPS, is a year younger, and currently plays 1B for the Braves. What's his name again?

It all boils down to which one you can sign for around 4yrs.


Holliday would be a nice addition, but there is nowhere to put him, and the price for him will be too high. I really don't think that Holliday is even on the market right now, because he is signed through 2009. The Rox would have to be blown away by an offer to deal him away.

It would not be unreasonable to see the Sox taking on Holliday as a replacement for Manny. That's where he fits. And, whatever you may think about his availability, the Rox have already made it known that he could be available for two impact players. They don't necessarily want prospects because they're already loaded. The primary stipulation is that they don't take on obligations longer than Holliday for any older vets. Manny could fit that description since his options are not obligations.

lil'papi
07-21-2008, 08:19 AM
Manny for Holliday.......where do we sign? I'd do it in a NY minute.
Manny's lost respect for the game. Anyone hear Eck go off on him, well I could NOT agree more.

Time to cut the umbilical.

cocossox
07-21-2008, 09:23 AM
Manny for Holliday.......where do we sign? I'd do it in a NY minute.
Manny's lost respect for the game. Anyone hear Eck go off on him, well I could NOT agree more.

Time to cut the umbilical.if the Fo pulled that off I'd do a cartwheel :D

Tragedy
07-21-2008, 11:55 AM
Manny for Holliday.......where do we sign? I'd do it in a NY minute.
Manny's lost respect for the game. Anyone hear Eck go off on him, well I could NOT agree more.

Time to cut the umbilical.
Oh, I agree.

Manny's time in Boston should be done as soon as the season ends (He's not getting traded during the season, we all know that).

He had a good year PERSONALLY last year - He was friendly with the media, didn't make too many ignorant blunders on the field, and was all around a good team player. Whatever happened from then to now is a mystery to me. I'm ready to see him out the door. Thank you for 8 good years, but that's more than enough.

RedSoxRok34
07-21-2008, 05:17 PM
keep in mind tho, manny has 10/5 status, and could just block any trade

RedSoxtober
07-21-2008, 11:09 PM
keep in mind tho, manny has 10/5 status, and could just block any trade

If they guaranteed his options he might consider it. Either that, or Boras could tell him it's in his best interests to go b/c the Rox couldn't afford him (FA $$$ for Boras and Manny). He just might do it.

WilymoPena
07-21-2008, 11:22 PM
NO WAY DO I TRADE MANNY!!!! You guys are NUTS!!!!!

RedSoxtober
07-21-2008, 11:35 PM
^^^ That was constructive. Apparently berating in caps trumps stats and all that analytical stuff.

lil'papi
07-22-2008, 08:53 AM
NO WAY DO I TRADE MANNY!!!! You guys are NUTS!!!!!

This coming from a guys nic thats wilymopena? Enough said....

lil'papi
07-22-2008, 09:08 AM
Being analytical Holliday has solid numbers, is younger, isn't a plodding clod on defense either. He would be a little cheaper to boot.
No Holliday being Holliday either!

Buh Bye......nuts as we are.....

Manny must finish really strong and without incidence the rest of the year.

Ortiz won't have to answer Manny questions anymore either.

...a fairly even match production wise. You could even say Holliday in our lineup would produce better and he isn't declining. Manny numbers are .......and will especially if he seeks a 3-4 yr contract. (which he is)


SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
2008 Boston 94 342 62 103 20 1 19 62 182 48 83 1 0 .399 .532 .301



Player TEAM POS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG

M Holliday COL OF 84 328 57 111 23 2 17 58 189 44 60 13 1 .423 .576 .338

ZHawk1123
07-22-2008, 01:32 PM
Being analytical Holliday has solid numbers, is younger, isn't a plodding clod on defense either. He would be a little cheaper to boot.
No Holliday being Holliday either!

Buh Bye......nuts as we are.....

Manny must finish really strong and without incidence the rest of the year.

Ortiz won't have to answer Manny questions anymore either.

...a fairly even match production wise. You could even say Holliday in our lineup would produce better and he isn't declining. Manny numbers are .......and will especially if he seeks a 3-4 yr contract. (which he is)


SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
2008 Boston 94 342 62 103 20 1 19 62 182 48 83 1 0 .399 .532 .301



Player TEAM POS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG

M Holliday COL OF 84 328 57 111 23 2 17 58 189 44 60 13 1 .423 .576 .338


Holliday has played 10 less games than Manny... His stats would be a lot better than Mannys had he not been injured...

I like the 13 steals...

Raidaz4Life
07-22-2008, 02:30 PM
Being analytical Holliday has solid numbers, is younger, isn't a plodding clod on defense either. He would be a little cheaper to boot.
No Holliday being Holliday either!

Buh Bye......nuts as we are.....

Manny must finish really strong and without incidence the rest of the year.

Ortiz won't have to answer Manny questions anymore either.

...a fairly even match production wise. You could even say Holliday in our lineup would produce better and he isn't declining. Manny numbers are .......and will especially if he seeks a 3-4 yr contract. (which he is)


SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
2008 Boston 94 342 62 103 20 1 19 62 182 48 83 1 0 .399 .532 .301



Player TEAM POS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG

M Holliday COL OF 84 328 57 111 23 2 17 58 189 44 60 13 1 .423 .576 .338

That would be hilarious seeing Holliday taking a leak in the green monster

homie564
07-22-2008, 04:19 PM
That would be hilarious seeing Holliday taking a leak in the green monster

lmao :laugh: :laugh2:

ccspence8
07-22-2008, 07:10 PM
I love how everyone is bashing Manny. Oh well that's Manny being Manny. Manny shouldn't act like this. Manny shouldn't act like that. Manny is declining?!
Manny doesn't give money to the poor.

WHO GIVES A ****!!!!!!!!

This guy has been with this team 8 years and will retire in a Red Sox uniform. He has been the best all round hitter the Sox have probably ever had, aside from Ted.

And all those people want to dump him on the side of the road because he doesn't like the media or because in the past he wanted to be traded?

IMO the Sox played worse when Manny was out of the lineup than Ortiz.

Why would the Rockies trade Holliday for Manny?
Holliday is younger and cheaper, Manny is in his last year of his contract.

One last thing, please don't even bring up that Manny is such a terrible fielder , because he really isn't.

ccspence8
07-22-2008, 07:13 PM
I never knew .300 30+ HR 100+ RBI was a down year for a 36 year old. It doesn't sound like a down year for anyone for that matter.

The Intimidator
07-22-2008, 07:33 PM
I'm tired of discussing this, so I'll just say this...WE'RE NOT GETTING TEIXEIRA!!!!! WE ALREADY GET THE SAME PRODUCTION OUT OF MANNY THAT WE WOULD GET FROM TEIXEIRA, AND MANNY WILL END UP BEING CHEAPER THAN TEIXEIRA!!!! Plus Youkilis is no slouch at the plate either, and plays gold glove defense. We shot down the Youk and Hansen for Teixeira already, and that speaks volumes.

Lord Byron 34
07-22-2008, 11:23 PM
There is only one way Teixeira comes to Boston: as a Free Agent. There is no way Theo gives up 2-3 good prospects for Teixeira at the deadline and then shells out big bucks in the offseason to re-sign him (btw, is Teixeira's agent Scott Boras? that's what I thought but I'm not sure). With no pressing need for him other than as a long-term solution, I bet the Sox management would rather wait.

My prediction is that the sox exercise Manny's option for next year before taking a big run at Holliday the following year in free agency.

The Intimidator
07-22-2008, 11:27 PM
There is only one way Teixeira comes to Boston: as a Free Agent. There is no way Theo gives up 2-3 good prospects for Teixeira at the deadline and then shells out big bucks in the offseason to re-sign him (btw, is Teixeira's agent Scott Boras? that's what I thought but I'm not sure). With no pressing need for him other than as a long-term solution, I bet the Sox management would rather wait.

My prediction is that the sox exercise Manny's option for next year before taking a big run at Holliday the following year in free agency.

We're agreeing a lot tonight. :D

lil'papi
07-23-2008, 09:33 AM
I love how everyone is bashing Manny. Oh well that's Manny being Manny. Manny shouldn't act like this. Manny shouldn't act like that. Manny is declining?!
Manny doesn't give money to the poor.

WHO GIVES A ****!!!!!!!!

This guy has been with this team 8 years and will retire in a Red Sox uniform. He has been the best all round hitter the Sox have probably ever had, aside from Ted.

And all those people want to dump him on the side of the road because he doesn't like the media or because in the past he wanted to be traded?

IMO the Sox played worse when Manny was out of the lineup than Ortiz.

Why would the Rockies trade Holliday for Manny?
Holliday is younger and cheaper, Manny is in his last year of his contract.

One last thing, please don't even bring up that Manny is such a terrible fielder , because he really isn't.

So past production gets rewarded in your system? At age 36? After declining two straight years. He is AWFUL on DEFENSE away from Fenway, period!
He is ok at Fenway.

So in your words we just sign him to a 4/80 mil deal and live with his antics?

If we start paying guys on the decline for past production when they were in their prime we start losing loads of games. His 8yr total is 160million dollars. He got paid for his production lest you forget!

We MUST get rid of aging players on the decline with younger players on the upswing. End of story....

Pedroia ,Youkilis, Ellsbury, Papelbon, DiceK, Beckett all replaced guys.

Why is Manny different. I'm OK BTW with keeping him if we can't replace his bat , IF, the price is right. That means a serious pay cut and a extra year w/option. Not 20mil per because he hit over the prime of his life.

Sorry all good things come to an end. His end is close.

I also didn't read anything about Manny for Matt? It was thrown out there more to stir thought. We would have to give up a piece and a prospect. At that point we still HAVE MANNY. We can then sign and trade or keep him for one more year and see how he fares.

He is running himself out of town.

He gets four yrs do you really believe in the third and fourth years he hits .300 - 30-100 the pace he is on this year? No way....

I believe holliday won't decline over a four year deal. He might even get better. Like Manny did here....;)

Tragedy
07-23-2008, 09:53 AM
So in your words we just sign him to a 4/80 mil deal and live with his antics?

If we start paying guys on the decline for past production when they were in their prime we start losing loads of games. His 8yr total is 160million dollars. He got paid for his production lest you forget!
And this is where Theo Epstein is at his best. Derek Lowe? Let him walk. Johnny Damon? Let him walk. He's not going to overpay for someone that he doesn't believe will be very solid for the remainder of their contract.

Ramirez is going downhill, and I think Theo Epstein is smart enough to see that.

ccspence8
07-23-2008, 11:49 AM
So past production gets rewarded in your system? At age 36? After declining two straight years. He is AWFUL on DEFENSE away from Fenway, period!
He is ok at Fenway.

So in your words we just sign him to a 4/80 mil deal and live with his antics?

If we start paying guys on the decline for past production when they were in their prime we start losing loads of games. His 8yr total is 160million dollars. He got paid for his production lest you forget!

We MUST get rid of aging players on the decline with younger players on the upswing. End of story....

Pedroia ,Youkilis, Ellsbury, Papelbon, DiceK, Beckett all replaced guys.

Why is Manny different. I'm OK BTW with keeping him if we can't replace his bat , IF, the price is right. That means a serious pay cut and a extra year w/option. Not 20mil per because he hit over the prime of his life.

Sorry all good things come to an end. His end is close.

I also didn't read anything about Manny for Matt? It was thrown out there more to stir thought. We would have to give up a piece and a prospect. At that point we still HAVE MANNY. We can then sign and trade or keep him for one more year and see how he fares.

He is running himself out of town.

He gets four yrs do you really believe in the third and fourth years he hits .300 - 30-100 the pace he is on this year? No way....

I believe holliday won't decline over a four year deal. He might even get better. Like Manny did here....;)

If you wanted to sign him long term the best offer I'd give is 3/45. To be honest a long term deal makes no sense to me. Just pick up his option because if we don't pay him someone else will.

We're not talking about Johnny ****in Damon here. Manny is the best hitter on this team and if you can't see that you must be blind. Everyone is talking about how he is declining. I really haven't seen a drop in production this year.
He's gonna put up another .300 30 100 season. You can ***** all u want about how he is a loopy player but on anyones team, production means everything.

I don't know who you expect to get to secure this lineup. Don't even tell me Teixiera because he has no spot on this team and to be honest him and Youk have almost identical numbers. Not worth wasting money on him.

The only player that makes sense is Holliday. But you would have to trade for him now or in the offseason.

Tragedy
07-23-2008, 01:25 PM
We're not talking about Johnny ****in Damon here. Manny is the best hitter on this team and if you can't see that you must be blind. Everyone is talking about how he is declining. I really haven't seen a drop in production this year.
He's gonna put up another .300 30 100 season. You can ***** all u want about how he is a loopy player but on anyones team, production means everything.
I think the whole "Ramirez is declining" is coming from the fact that he's just not consistent anymore. April and July he was/has been dominant, while he wasn't anything special the other two months.

Ramirez certainly isn't the same player that he was a few years ago (He's not a treat to reach 120+ RBI's - He's probably going to get around 105 this year), but he still IS a good offensive producer.

ZHawk1123
07-23-2008, 01:53 PM
I think the whole "Ramirez is declining" is coming from the fact that he's just not consistent anymore. April and July he was/has been dominant, while he wasn't anything special the other two months.

Ramirez certainly isn't the same player that he was a few years ago (He's not a treat to reach 120+ RBI's - He's probably going to get around 105 this year), but he still IS a good offensive producer.

Very well said... Manny is more of a .300... 25-30 HR... 105-115 RBI guy now...

Instead of the .320... 30-40 HR... 120-140 RBI guy he used to be...

RedSoxtober
07-23-2008, 03:28 PM
I love how everyone is bashing Manny. Oh well that's Manny being Manny. Manny shouldn't act like this. Manny shouldn't act like that. Manny is declining?!
Manny doesn't give money to the poor.

WHO GIVES A ****!!!!!!!!
His teammates do. They care a lot more than they let on. They stay silent for the same reason you're willing to excuse him -- the hope that he will produce.


This guy has been with this team 8 years and will retire in a Red Sox uniform. He has been the best all round hitter the Sox have probably ever had, aside from Ted.

And all those people want to dump him on the side of the road because he doesn't like the media or because in the past he wanted to be traded?
No, we're ready to let him go because he is no longer producing that well at the plate, his defense is poor, and because of the whole "Manny Being Manny" :bs: BTW, while you're out defending him, he just came in totally out of the blue and complained about a sore right knee that'll get him the day off (conveniently before a travel day...).


IMO the Sox played worse when Manny was out of the lineup than Ortiz.
On what basis? Your subjective opinion or is there some way to measure whether or not this was actually the case?


Why would the Rockies trade Holliday for Manny?
Holliday is younger and cheaper, Manny is in his last year of his contract.

One last thing, please don't even bring up that Manny is such a terrible fielder , because he really isn't.
The Rox probably are not that interested. As lilpapi suggests the Manny-for-Holliday idea is more internet rambling than anything else. But the idea of replacing Manny with Holliday is not. That may well be an indirect deal (FA/sign-and-trade for Manny, separate deal for Holliday).

And, yes, Manny really is that bad a fielder. He has a career Rate2 of 89 in LF. Rate2 is adjusted by position and, since LF is relatively easy compared to other positions, that's pretty damn bad in the field.

He is currently having his best year ever in the field, but I expect that to decline as these distractions begin to mount. The crazy sliding-non-catch-and-roll-over-the-ball routine is a sign of things to come.


I never knew .300 30+ HR 100+ RBI was a down year for a 36 year old. It doesn't sound like a down year for anyone for that matter.

Why does it matter how old he is? Shouldn't it matter how he produces, regardless of age? At $20M, he damn well better produce. And his production has been down, whether you like it or not. Look at the numbers, it's pretty easy to see. He might hit around .300 this year, but he's on pace for 28-29 HR, and only 93RBI. Those are not terrible numbers, but they're not $20M numbers either. Considering this is likely to be his second straight year under 30HR and under 100RBI (with two years ago barely cracking it at 102) it's safe to say that his production is declining.

Super.
07-24-2008, 09:35 AM
I'm tired of discussing this, so I'll just say this...WE'RE NOT GETTING TEIXEIRA!!!!! WE ALREADY GET THE SAME PRODUCTION OUT OF MANNY THAT WE WOULD GET FROM TEIXEIRA, AND MANNY WILL END UP BEING CHEAPER THAN TEIXEIRA!!!! Plus Youkilis is no slouch at the plate either, and plays gold glove defense. We shot down the Youk and Hansen for Teixeira already, and that speaks volumes.
EXACTLY!

WE DO NOT NEED TEXEIRA, Was he an All-Star? Did he win a Gold GLove last season? Is he the greatest Defensive 1B the MLB has ever seen?

No he wasnt, we need a SS, and relievers

RedSoxRok34
07-24-2008, 05:14 PM
EXACTLY!

WE DO NOT NEED TEXEIRA, Was he an All-Star? Did he win a Gold GLove last season? Is he the greatest Defensive 1B the MLB has ever seen?

No he wasnt, we need a SS, and relievers

yes, no but he has 2 to youk's 1, and no but neither is youk (yet).

agreed we don't need him, we need RPs. we don't need a SS, we have one in lowrie. the only question is how to keep lugo out of his way.

tex is not coming, that's youk's spot and i don't see that changing anytime soon. but he's still a great player, ease off a bit.

PapelbonLester
07-24-2008, 11:49 PM
we dont HAVE to make a move. I honestly like our team right now maybe 1 arm in the pen would be nice but this a youk for tiex would nice. youk is doing very nice and i see lars coming up in a couple years so i like our chances with not making a move.

Lord Byron 34
07-27-2008, 11:24 PM
we dont HAVE to make a move. I honestly like our team right now maybe 1 arm in the pen would be nice but this a youk for tiex would nice. youk is doing very nice and i see lars coming up in a couple years so i like our chances with not making a move.

I disagree. I think we need to make a move for a reliever, and risk getting Eric Gagne 2.0. Right now our bullpen (outside of Papelbon) is pathetic, and would be too much of a liability to win a playoff series.

97'bulls
07-27-2008, 11:31 PM
Papi's been lookin good to me

Webslinger
07-28-2008, 03:38 PM
The sox already have youkilis what would be the purpose??? Tex is not going to come cheap in prospects or as a FA.

GrkGawdofWalkz
07-28-2008, 03:41 PM
Why is this thread still opened. There is no need for him. Youkilis continues to have a great year, and Papi is back and looks to be healthy. Tex, will not be going anywhere. If he does it's to Arizona.

RedSoxtober
07-28-2008, 07:30 PM
Tex is an option for three more days.

BostonFan 53
07-29-2008, 06:02 PM
Just traded to LA for kotchman and a "lesser name"

RedSoxtober
07-29-2008, 07:11 PM
Unlike posts elsewhere, I think this could hurt the Sox as much as help. There are not a lot of options on the market but that means it's that much harder for the Sox to fill Manny's slot if he gets dealt.