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View Full Version : Colangelo is all HYPE and really not so special



star
07-12-2008, 11:56 PM
Hey guys,
Im starting to get pissed when everyone talks about BC as some kind of a god send. As the BEST GM. As the saviour of the raptors.

Really what has this guy done.

WHAT HE DIDNT DO:
Draft BOSH
Draft CALDERON

(regardless what anyone says these 2 players are to be credited with most of the success of the raptors - the rest are basically interchangable parts at this point but these 2 are the franchise guys) ...and NO BC did bring them here.


The good:
Found Jamrio Moon
Aquired Delfino
Aquired Parker
Traded away some ugly contracts

The Bad:

Drafted Andrea as #1 - for a "creative genious" with the first pick would it have been possible to trade down and still get Andrea + another asset?

Let MO Pete walk - who was our best perimeter defender ever, showed his playoff value in the NJ series, and his absence was definately felt against Orlando. You dont think MO PETE would have stayed here for cheap?

Re-Signed Sam Mitchel - It was a tough spot b/c Sam just won coach of the year (which was completely bogus). BUT it was clear in the last 2 playoff years that Sam cannot COACH - yes he is a good friend to players and a good motivator but DOES NOT know the basic fundatamentals of player rotations, offensive schemes, or defensive sets. Lets not even bring up his ATO plays (b/c he doesnt have a single one)

Over-paid for kapono - self explanatory

Signed Garbo - who ditched us

He did not get a 1st round pick in the past "DEEP" draft.

He totally missed the boat on buying NO's Pick, SA's pick.

He had a mediocre offseason( b/c he combined our 2 two best assets to get just 1 piece)


QUESTIONABLE:
Traded TJ for CV3 - i know this is arguable - but i look at it like this TJ slowed calderons development. Plus if we had CV3 we would not have drafted Bargs and may have had ROY or GAY



With these above points i really do not see why everyone loves and is so confident in BC. He has not made ANY ground breaking moves or and major additions.

Babcock - got BOSH and CALDERON and they are our major pieces. Yes he screwed the VC thing. But i think he likely would have drafted ROY or GAY too.

CV3/(this years pick)
Bosh
MO pete
ROY or GAY
Calderone/Ukic (would have been over 2 years ago)

I am almost tempted to say i would be very interested to see the babcock team play.

ink
07-13-2008, 12:03 AM
I think you make some good points because BC definitely has some flaws. But he does seem responsive to the fan base and he works pretty quickly to fix his mistakes. In fact, by targeting a big man this off-season I think he showed that he is paying attention to his previous failures. Everyone screws up ... he's no god ... and the thing we're fortunate about is that he is more resourceful than most GM's in the league. Babcock made some good moves because he was nowhere near as bad as people said he was, but he doesn't have the creative and flexible mind that Colangelo does. To his credit, he knew that Calderon was the player to hold on to. There might be some debate about that, but I'm convinced that BC had little difficulty deciding which PG to hang onto, based completely on play. I think he's really working it as a GM. He didn't have much in the way of assets this off-season: he had to send, what, three players and a first rounder just to get a big man who has an injury history ... and yet, if JO remains healthy, he might have just pulled off the deal of the off-season. That's impressive really. I know he has flaws, but he's better than average, and he learns. I don't see him having a stubborn side, which is fatal for a franchise. If you want to compare, just look at JP Ricciardi, who takes a good 5-7 years to admit how totally wrong he has been. By comparison, BC is lightning quick in his responsiveness. We're lucky in that regard.

star
07-13-2008, 12:15 AM
I think you make some good points because BC definitely has some flaws. But he does seem responsive to the fan base and he works pretty quickly to fix his mistakes. In fact, by targeting a big man this off-season I think he showed that he is paying attention to his previous failures. Everyone screws up ... he's no god ... and the thing we're fortunate about is that he is more resourceful than most GM's in the league. Babcock made some good moves because he was nowhere near as bad as people said he was, but he doesn't have the creative and flexible mind that Colangelo does. To his credit, he knew that Calderon was the player to hold on to. There might be some debate about that, but I'm convinced that BC had little difficulty deciding which PG to hang onto, based completely on play. I think he's really working it as a GM. He didn't have much in the way of assets this off-season: he had to send, what, three players and a first rounder just to get a big man who has an injury history ... and yet, if JO remains healthy, he could have pulled off the deal of the off-season. That's impressive really.

do you really think JO will have more of and impact than BRAND? ... i dont. and with philly being an up and coming team plus they added a huge piece i think are behind still.

I see The following teams as being better than us...

BOS
CLE (b/c we have NOONE that can even slow james down- he will score like kobe did on us)
DET
ORL
PHILLY (we are about even)
ATL (about even)

that puts us in a dogfight for 4-7 .... i dont see how JO alone will be the move of the summer.

ALSO in getting JO we lost TJ plus RASHO who both gave us BIG minutes. what if JOSE cannot pysically play 82 games effectively ...

Ramon Nivar
07-13-2008, 12:19 AM
In BC we trust. :flag: (There is no Canadian Flag. :shrug: )

Anyway; as far as Bargs, you're prematurely giving up on him. If I do remember correctly Bargs was considered a top pick anyway so more than likely we would not have been able to trade down and still get him unless we only got a little extra.

Sam only had one year in the playoffs before the extension, you can NOT judge a coaches' ability to coach in the playoffs after one year and more specifically one series. Not to mention BC is very loyal to crappy playoff coaches. Mike D'Antoni anyone?

I think we all thought he overpaid for Kapono, he overpaid for a need which a lot of GM's do. Certainly is a flaw in the business.

T.J. for CV was a good move because we had no need at all for CV and even when we did start him he didn't always give 100% out there.

star
07-13-2008, 12:22 AM
acutally another point.

All of our past GMs drafted ALL STARS at some point and they did it with later picks (i think bosh was highest at 5)

STOUDAMIRE
CAMBY
McGrady
CARTER
BOSH

BC had an advantage NONEof them had a 1st OVERALL ... and he STILL couldnt get one?

In his only 2 draft years he has andera (who i like) but should NEVER have been a 1st overall. and jawai .... thats bad

ink
07-13-2008, 12:27 AM
do you really think JO will have more of and impact than BRAND? ... i dont. and with philly being an up and coming team plus they added a huge piece i think are behind still.

I see The following teams as being better than us...

BOS
CLE (b/c we have NOONE that can even slow james down- he will score like kobe did on us)
DET
ORL
PHILLY (we are about even)
ATL (about even)

that puts us in a dogfight for 4-7 .... i dont see how JO alone will be the move of the summer.

ALSO in getting JO we lost TJ plus RASHO who both gave us BIG minutes. what if JOSE cannot pysically play 82 games effectively ...

For starters, Brand was a FA and secondly, it looks like PHI got him because they lucked into an impasse during Brand's agent's negotiations with the Clippers. If Colangelo had waited that long to swing a deal, and he was able to afford a FA like Brand, all of us would have been down on him for taking so long. O'Neal is a very shrewd risky move - maybe that's an oxymoron, but it's both shrewd and risky. If it works out, he will have essentially flipped CV and Matt Bonner for JO.

ink
07-13-2008, 12:29 AM
acutally another point.

All of our past GMs drafted ALL STARS at some point and they did it with later picks (i think bosh was highest at 5)

STOUDAMIRE
CAMBY
McGrady
CARTER
BOSH

BC had an advantage NONEof them had a 1st OVERALL ... and he STILL couldnt get one?

In his only 2 draft years he has andera (who i like) but should NEVER have been a 1st overall. and jawai .... thats bad

No doubt about it, BC has been gambling with, and even squandering, draft picks lately. In the two years he's been here he hasn't come up with an amazing gem yet. But in PHX he came up with Marion, Stat and Nash (with Donnie Nelson's advice because he knew the Santa Clara roster well that year). So he can draft.

The Wise 1
07-13-2008, 12:32 AM
I started realizing this early last season that this team is going to be stuck in lower half seeding till 2010. What really hurt him and this team is that Andrea didnt pan out. Theoretically, if Andrea turned out like a Top 3 pick is supposed to turn out, we have a nice core. But since he didnt, this team had/has a lot of holes. I give him credit for filling the roster with really good role players (Parker, Garbo and Rasho) and finding players that can fit with the system. However, when you lack the talent those role players are less effective.

ink
07-13-2008, 12:34 AM
I started realizing this early last season that this team is going to be stuck in lower half seeding till 2010. What really hurt him and this team is that Andrea didnt pan out. Theoretically, if Andrea turned out like a Top 3 pick is supposed to turn out, we have a nice core. But since he didnt, this team had/has a lot of holes. I give him credit for filling the roster with really good role players (Parker, Garbo and Rasho) and finding players that can fit with the system. However, when you lack the talent those role players are less effective.

Agreed. A lot hinges on the success/failure of Bargnani. If the plan works, the rest falls into place. If it doesn't, he has to scramble. IMO signing JO shows he was capable of responding to a problem quickly and effectively. Now we have to see how JO plays. Hey, the press conference sounded good. :D

The Wise 1
07-13-2008, 12:39 AM
No doubt about it, BC has been gambling with, and even squandering, draft picks lately. In the two years he's been here he hasn't come up with an amazing gem yet. But in PHX he came up with Marion, Stat and Nash (with Donnie Nelson's advice because he knew the Santa Clara roster well that year). So he can draft.

When did he take over from his dad? I know he drafted Amare for sure but not Nash or Marion. Also, Barbosa was a nice find in the late late late 20's. I've never really looked at him as a great drafter. I've always looked at him as a guy who can find players to fit into the system and complement the talent that was already there. I thought marion was already there when he took over?

ink
07-13-2008, 12:41 AM
When did he take over from his dad? I know he drafted Amare for sure but not Nash or Marion. Also, Barbosa was a nice find in the late late late 20's. I've never really looked at him as a great drafter. I've always looked at him as a guy who can find players to fit into the system and complement the talent that was already there. I thought marion was already there when he took over?

He drafted Nash in 1996 on Donnie Nelson's advice ... #15 from Santa Clara. He drafted Marion #9 in 1999. BC started as GM in 94-95 I believe.

Bramaca
07-13-2008, 12:47 AM
I think BC gets a little too much credit on here sometimes but some of your points are off.


Let MO Pete walk - who was our best perimeter defender ever, showed his playoff value in the NJ series, and his absence was definately felt against Orlando. You dont think MO PETE would have stayed here for cheap?

I liked MoPete and thought they should have resigned him but he was not the Raps best perimeter defender of all time, he was a solid defender and thats about it. He just looked really good on some bad defensive teams.


QUESTIONABLE:
Traded TJ for CV3 - i know this is arguable - but i look at it like this TJ slowed calderons development. Plus if we had CV3 we would not have drafted Bargs and may have had ROY or GAY

The Raps still did have CV3 when they drafted Bargs, the trade didn't take place until after the draft. And it was still a good trade, at the time the Raps were in serious need of a pg and nobody really knew how good Calderon was going to be.


Babcock - got BOSH and CALDERON and they are our major pieces. Yes he screwed the VC thing. But i think he likely would have drafted ROY or GAY too.

Babcock signed Calderon but Bosh was drafted by Grunwald a year before Babcock got hired.

Master P
07-13-2008, 12:49 AM
I have many problems with this thread. Bottom line, he is an excellent general manager.

Despite the concerns listed above that basically summarize him as a risk taker, his continually aggressive nature in improving the team mediates failures and can quickly turn around into success. but these vague points aside, allow me both give examples of why he is good as well as attack some of the points made above.

first off: two-time associate of the year as evaluated by his peers. we are just fans, we dont understand the depth and effort it takes to managing basketball operations, players, and personalities in order to take a loser and make it a winner. bryan was able to do this twice in the past five years.

speaking of the past five years. sure bc did not draft bosh, or sign calderon (or even draft calderon in the second round while with the suns). i will get back to bosh specifically below, but for now lets note that while the raptors were making these moves bc was bussy signing steve nash who then won two straight mvp trophies and turned pheonix into a championship level team (they were very close, and save some questionable calls / suspension they might have had it). as a gm if you can put a championship level team out there you have done your job well, it is then up to the players, coaches, and luck. bc has been involved in two teams like this in pheonix going way back to barkley's days where if a guy named jordon didn't exist they would have won the title...ask anyone whether all the teams that lost to mj did so because the gm's weren't doing a good job.

back to bosh. stop praising babcock for that pick. if anybody pays attention to the raps they know the choice to pick bosh was largely due to kevin oneill. at the time babcock was leaning towards kirk hinrick...enough said. think this sounds too stupid to believe, well then think about the hoffa pick the next season.

above: [bc] "signed garbo - who ditched us"...are you really that much of a plug...bc is a bad gm because he didn't know garbo would break his ankle in a thousand places? anyway...

bc is also proving very responsive and flexible. what i mean by this is last year the super depth experiment failed. sam wasn't happy having to play that many guys without a clear rotation. i think this summer bc recognizes sam's desire to coach a more conventional team and is providing him that opportunity by having a clear 8 man rotation (oneal, bosh, bargs, moon, kapono, parker, calderon, ukik or other backup pg). during the regular season they will expand out and give other guys more minutes, but that's the main lineup they are going to compete with this year. very clear rotation, guys will understand their rolls better, sam will coach better, and the team will win more games. when they do remember that just three years ago the team won 27 games, which was coming off of 5 years of horrible contracts and bad basketball in toronto.

speaking of horrible basketball. im not going to say JO will have more impact than brand...im just saying brand is not the god of basketball. only one season has a team led by him not sucked. compound that with philly's overachievement last season and i take the raptors ahead of sixers come april.

lastly, i think a lot of people are not realizing what happened in boston is extremely rare. it's not the way champions have ever been built. it was amazingly risky and will ultimately leave boston back in rebuilding mode in a few years. there is nothing wrong with this because they won, but it is a rare path to success that cannot be emulated.

Bob_at_york
07-13-2008, 01:13 AM
The Bad:

Drafted Andrea as #1 - for a "creative genious" with the first pick would it have been possible to trade down and still get Andrea + another asset?
He said he tried to trade down but nobody bit. I don't see any point in BC making that up since other GMs could call him a liar.


Let MO Pete walk - who was our best perimeter defender ever, showed his playoff value in the NJ series, and his absence was definately felt against Orlando. You dont think MO PETE would have stayed here for cheap?
I did not notice his absence in the Orlando series. MoPete can't shoot in the USA. Orlando had home court. He wouldn't have been that useful. Also I think Delfino and Moon are better rebounders.


Re-Signed Sam Mitchel - It was a tough spot b/c Sam just won coach of the year (which was completely bogus). BUT it was clear in the last 2 playoff years that Sam cannot COACH - yes he is a good friend to players and a good motivator but DOES NOT know the basic fundatamentals of player rotations, offensive schemes, or defensive sets. Lets not even bring up his ATO plays (b/c he doesnt have a single one)
I still think that Sam winning COY should have helped make it easier for BC to lose him. Too bad we didn't let him go.


Over-paid for kapono - self explanatory
Please explain this one. I was convinced that if we didn't pay Jason this amount, somebody else would have.


Signed Garbo - who ditched us
So BC needs to have a crystal ball now? he needs to know about freak injuries from the future? I think that is unfair. Although if he plays for another NBA team than I will be disappointed with how BC has dealt with the situation.


He did not get a 1st round pick in the past "DEEP" draft.

He totally missed the boat on buying NO's Pick, SA's pick.
I am surprised he didn't get one of those either but I am not going to say he missed the boat. For all we know he made the call but they picked a different team.


He had a mediocre offseason( b/c he combined our 2 two best assets to get just 1 piece)
I am also disappointed that our two best assets were combined but shouldn't we wait for the season to start before we call the offseason mediocre?



QUESTIONABLE:
Traded TJ for CV3 - i know this is arguable - but i look at it like this TJ slowed calderons development. Plus if we had CV3 we would not have drafted Bargs and may have had ROY or GAY
We drafted Bargs before we made the trade... technically. Speaking about TJ slowing down Jose' development, from what I have heard on here, there are very few people who saw this kind of potiential in Jose. I did but very few others did.


CV3/(this years pick)
Bosh
MO pete
ROY or GAY
Calderone/Ukic (would have been over 2 years ago)

I am almost tempted to say i would be very interested to see the babcock team play.
I wouldn't be interested in them. CV can't play C, he can barely cover PFs. MoPete can't shoot in the USA (I know I am repeating myself) and half the games are played there. ROY or Gay would have been great, I am not disagreeing there. And Jose would fit in very well beside Roy but in the end, that defensive lineup would not impress me the least bit.

Bob_at_york
07-13-2008, 01:20 AM
No doubt about it, BC has been gambling with, and even squandering, draft picks lately. In the two years he's been here he hasn't come up with an amazing gem yet.
He has only had what 4 picks? Andrea hasn't worked out, PJ is gone. The other guy is overseas (can't fault that move yet) and Jawai might end up being a steal. He wasn't the one who traded our 2007 1st rounder away. Now once again, we can question how aggressive he was in trying to buy picks but I don't think he has done a horrible drafting job.


If it works out, he will have essentially flipped CV and Matt Bonner for JO.
Damn... when you look at it that way, the deal looks better!

ink
07-13-2008, 01:49 AM
He has only had what 4 picks? Andrea hasn't worked out, PJ is gone. The other guy is overseas (can't fault that move yet) and Jawai might end up being a steal. He wasn't the one who traded our 2007 1st rounder away. Now once again, we can question how aggressive he was in trying to buy picks but I don't think he has done a horrible drafting job.

I was the one in the thread who said "he can draft". Circumstances haven't been great for drafting in the two years he's been here. With hindsight, he probably wouldn't have drafted Bargs but like I said, he recovered quickly from his mistake. And who knows, maybe it won't be the mistake we think it is now.

Anyway, for the last half of the season I was upset with his inattention to quality big men. He came through this off-season in that dept. (albeit with a big with an injury history) so I can't really complain at all. I'm happy he prioritizes a big man to play alongside Bosh. That's what I thought he meant when he said he was looking for someone to play beside CB4 ... and it came true. :D

Legitimate
07-13-2008, 05:37 AM
BC is a mastermind at drafting and putting teams together. Barganni was considered a number 1-3 overall pick by practically every team in the nba. I feel Barganni wasn't used properly and he isn't effectively mentored enough to be "awesome". BC should have fired mitchell, but i know if there is a crappy season this year for the raptors, BC will fire him. Lets hope Mitchell knows what he is doing...Trading away CV for tj ford was an awesome move, we quickly filled CV roles and got a legit point guard anywho....How would we know that Garbo was going to go down like that? That was rare what happenned...I would rather give BC the keys to the team than any other GM in the league. Yeah he isn't perfect, so just respect the moves that he has made, because everyone isn't "perfect". BC is excellent at scouting.

IN BRIAN COLANGELO WE TRUST!

hades
07-13-2008, 05:50 AM
... sigh another "star" typa post. always hating on posters, the always frustated guy who makes a lot of sense and good posts but alwyas gotta hate somebody. where is the love star?

B2B
07-13-2008, 08:18 AM
Everything brought up is easily viewed in hindsight, at the time these moves were made they didn't appear to be as bad as they turned out. You draw attention to these flaws, things that have gone wrong & why BC might not be so good. Now I'll tell you why that's false.

The ability to get better, smarter & to grow comes with the ability to admit you're mistakes and improve upon them. Mistakes can and will happen as you pointed out but what I'm now pointing out to you is what makes BC a good GM

This year after Bargs failed to produce at centre what did BC do?.

He went out and got an allstar C in O'Neal.

That's admitting Bargs is incapable of starting right now and he addressed it, he didn't cover it to hide a potential mistake. He's doing whatever possible to improve on flaws even if you think he created them.

Denverb2b
07-13-2008, 09:40 AM
Hey guys,
Im starting to get pissed when everyone talks about BC as some kind of a god send. As the BEST GM. As the saviour of the raptors.

Really what has this guy done.

WHAT HE DIDNT DO:
Draft BOSH
Draft CALDERON

(regardless what anyone says these 2 players are to be credited with most of the success of the raptors - the rest are basically interchangable parts at this point but these 2 are the franchise guys) ...and NO BC did bring them here.

No he did not draft them but he did resign them, and Bosh was not going to resign with babcock



The good:
Found Jamrio Moon
Aquired Delfino
Aquired Parker
Traded away some ugly contracts

Also rasho was good for us, Garbo was a big part of our first winning season in years and Humphries for hoffa was a decent trade as well. I also was a big fan of TJ Ford and he to was a hgue reason for our first season of success in a long time, flipping cv for him was a win for us.


The Bad:

Drafted Andrea as #1 - for a "creative genious" with the first pick would it have been possible to trade down and still get Andrea + another asset?

Let MO Pete walk - who was our best perimeter defender ever, showed his playoff value in the NJ series, and his absence was definately felt against Orlando. You dont think MO PETE would have stayed here for cheap?

Re-Signed Sam Mitchel - It was a tough spot b/c Sam just won coach of the year (which was completely bogus). BUT it was clear in the last 2 playoff years that Sam cannot COACH - yes he is a good friend to players and a good motivator but DOES NOT know the basic fundatamentals of player rotations, offensive schemes, or defensive sets. Lets not even bring up his ATO plays (b/c he doesnt have a single one)

Bargnani was runner up rookie of the year, maybe our best player against the nets in 07 playoffs and while he did have no progression in year two he is far from a bust at his age and at this stage in his career, im giving him this season to show his true worth. Chicago Bulls were lookin and were said to want Bargnani at the #2 pick in that draft, he couldnt of traded down far and still got Bargnani. Its was a weak draft with no true star player when the selection was made. Roy is for sure the best player of that draft but really no other player stands out to me as a better selection at that point in time.

Mo pete hardly played in the 07 season, he was not a part of that 46 win season and turn around, he did play well in the playoffs but thats about it. It was time for a new direction in Toronto and we needed some funds to upgrade on the 07 season.

Mitchell, reigning coach of the year, our two best players bosh and calderon love him, no brainer for time being.


Over-paid for kapono - self explanatory

Signed Garbo - who ditched us

He did not get a 1st round pick in the past "DEEP" draft.

He totally missed the boat on buying NO's Pick, SA's pick.

He had a mediocre offseason( b/c he combined our 2 two best assets to get just 1 piece)

Kapono is not overpaid, he is the best shooter in the NBA, he still is an asset most top teams would love to have to put them over the top. He used the 08 regular season to try and improve on his weaknesses and in the playoffs he lit it up for us, I personally love the guy and think he is going to be huge for us this season

We just got done trading for JO, we had to make some more moves to fill out our roster, taking on another first rounder would of put us right against the cap and stuck with a 10 player roster.



QUESTIONABLE:
Traded TJ for CV3 - i know this is arguable - but i look at it like this TJ slowed calderons development. Plus if we had CV3 we would not have drafted Bargs and may have had ROY or GAY

TJ for CV trade propelled us into the playoffs for two straight years, in that regard we won the trade, TJ and Jose were great for us both seasons and I would wager Jose learned alot from tj in practise and it made him a better player.

Roy would of been nice but im not sold on Gay the stat stuffer, he had a bad rookie season and in year two he couldnt win with a pretty decent cast in Gasol, Miller, Darko and decent young guards. The result was the grizzlies had to tank again and trade gasol.




With these above points i really do not see why everyone loves and is so confident in BC. He has not made ANY ground breaking moves or and major additions.

Babcock - got BOSH and CALDERON and they are our major pieces. Yes he screwed the VC thing. But i think he likely would have drafted ROY or GAY too.

CV3/(this years pick)
Bosh
MO pete
ROY or GAY
Calderone/Ukic (would have been over 2 years ago)

I am almost tempted to say i would be very interested to see the babcock team play.


BC took us from the joke of the league to two straight playoff seasons, not many gms can do that and with JO-Bosh frontcourt this season I expect a record raptor 50 win regular season.

Babcock did not draft Bosh, Glen Grunwald did

If we still had Babcock Bosh would already be gone, we would of missed the last two playoffs and drafted a couple more hoffa's, Jose would prolly be gone back to europe, and we would be on our weay to the wrost raptor season in history.

RaPToR_FeVeR
07-13-2008, 09:53 AM
Brian Colangelo Is God!!!!

reevanson
07-13-2008, 10:08 AM
I think the #1 thing that BC has done is made the Raptors legit again. 2 years ago the Raps were a joke in the NBA, now it is a place where the majority of analyst talk about as being a contender in the East. And a place where an allstar (or former allstar) is excited to come to this year. I feel that he has done more good in the 2 years he has been here than has been done in the past 7 years.

Numbers
07-13-2008, 10:09 AM
Here is the main point.

Regardless of his draft history/trade history success or failure, which this thread has proven to be debatable, Colangelo has brought the Raptors one thing that they have never had and that is credibility.

Players stay, sign as free agents and accept trades based on that and in the past two years and the upcoming two years that is the most valuable commodity this team will have to trade on, not the city, not the fans, but the fact we have one of the most respected GM's in the NBA.

By the way if the majority of players, agents and other GMs respect and see Colangelo (2 time executive of the year) as one of the best who are we as fan forum posters to question their judgement. I apologize to any NBA players or General Managers posting in this thread if I have devalued your opinion.

Tom Stone
07-13-2008, 10:29 AM
do you really think JO will have more of and impact than BRAND? ... i dont. and with philly being an up and coming team plus they added a huge piece i think are behind still.

I see The following teams as being better than us...

BOS
CLE (b/c we have NOONE that can even slow james down- he will score like kobe did on us)
DET
ORL
PHILLY (we are about even)
ATL (about even)

that puts us in a dogfight for 4-7 .... i dont see how JO alone will be the move of the summer.

ALSO in getting JO we lost TJ plus RASHO who both gave us BIG minutes. what if JOSE cannot pysically play 82 games effectively ...

I think you're under estimateing O'neals value....I think with the moves we made... were number 2 in the east....you could argue detroit if they stay together.....Now that calderon is our main guy...our point gaurd spot improved big time now that T.j out of the way...and roko uric is amazeing...I would agree that Bc isn't perfect and made mistakes....But i think with the moves we made..... this could be our year.....If you listened to O'neal talk about his knee it instills confindence that he's going to be good this year.....When he was good a few years ago he avraged 26 and 10 more than bosh and a better shot blocker than bosh too....so if we get the jermaine of old...it's our year...and calderon we'll lead us to the promise land....Raptor ball baby!

ramz.n
07-13-2008, 10:51 AM
acutally another point.

All of our past GMs drafted ALL STARS at some point and they did it with later picks (i think bosh was highest at 5)

STOUDAMIRE
CAMBY
McGrady
CARTER
BOSH

BC had an advantage NONEof them had a 1st OVERALL ... and he STILL couldnt get one?

In his only 2 draft years he has andera (who i like) but should NEVER have been a 1st overall. and jawai .... thats bad]

I don't think thats fair for BC the players above came from good drafts where those players were known to be stars in the League, in the Bargnani draft you can look at the top 5 with Bargnani,Aldridge,Thomas,Morrison,Roy..remember Roy had a serious injuryto his back or knee and required surgery which could have pushed him back..and if you look at that draft Bargnani was the big man who was seen as having the most potential..it was not like there was a Stoudamire who can run the team, Camby who is a defensive monster, Mcgrady, Carter and Bosh avalible in that draft.

RAPS424
07-13-2008, 11:41 AM
Lets Not Forget His First Summer He Complelty Flipped The Team From 27 Wins To Atlantic Division Champs.. Then Andrea (playing Out Of Position And Lacking The Physical Strength To Compete With The Other Centres..) Had 1 Bad Season.. And U Can Attack His Outside Shooting ..but U Dont Think His Up And Down Minutes..and The Frustration Of Playing Centre And Getting Beat Up Didnt Effect His Confidence?.. Bc Is Making Big Moves Every Off Season..trying To Improve...how Can Anyone Hate On This Guy..we Jsut Got A 6 Time Allstar With A (reportedly 100% Healthy New Knee) Does He Need To Put Together A Eastern Conference Allstar Team To Get Respect?

ink
07-13-2008, 11:46 AM
Lets Not Forget His First Summer He Complelty Flipped The Team From 27 Wins To Atlantic Division Champs.. Then Andrea (playing Out Of Position And Lacking The Physical Strength To Compete With The Other Centres..) Had 1 Bad Season.. And U Can Attack His Outside Shooting ..but U Dont Think His Up And Down Minutes..and The Frustration Of Playing Centre And Getting Beat Up Didnt Effect His Confidence?.. Bc Is Making Big Moves Every Off Season..trying To Improve...how Can Anyone Hate On This Guy..we Jsut Got A 6 Time Allstar With A (reportedly 100% Healthy New Knee) Does He Need To Put Together A Eastern Conference Allstar Team To Get Respect?

I don't think he's hurting for respect. In fact he gets a lot of hype. But no one can say he isn't trying different things to improve the franchise. He's a dynamic GM. (btw, it looks like you have your caps lock on). Welcome to PSD.

blujaysrock
07-13-2008, 11:47 AM
ANdrea is the only bad pick IMO. and calderon is undrafted,

ink
07-13-2008, 12:01 PM
... sigh another "star" typa post. always hating on posters, the always frustated guy who makes a lot of sense and good posts but alwyas gotta hate somebody. where is the love star?

star makes some very good posts in this forum. If you disagree with him, please don't make it personal. I don't really agree with what you're saying here. I don't see anything wrong with starting a thread like this. Seems to me this forum is the perfect place for a discussion about the pros and cons of a GM. And there are people who don't like the JO trade at all. Since it's the one big move he made this season, I can see why people might be upset. Really, JO needs to come through with a big season to justify the move. (Same with Steve Kerr and the Shaq trade btw - Shaq really needs to come through big time for that move to look good).

mariotubes
07-13-2008, 12:17 PM
I see The following teams as being better than us...

BOS
CLE (b/c we have NOONE that can even slow james down- he will score like kobe did on us)
DET
ORL
PHILLY (we are about even)
ATL (about even)

No way in hell is Atlanta anywhere near as good as Toronto, lets be serious here

blujaysrock
07-13-2008, 12:22 PM
No way in hell is Atlanta anywhere near as good as Toronto, lets be serious here

ya Atlanta is below us on about every level , only teams i am concerned with are cavs and celts/

RAPS424
07-13-2008, 12:23 PM
I don't think he's hurting for respect. In fact he gets a lot of hype. But no one can say he isn't trying different things to improve the franchise. He's a dynamic GM. (btw, it looks like you have your caps lock on). Welcome to PSD.

THE THREAD IS CALLED...Collangelo is all HYPE and really is not so special ..Id say thats not really getting respect..i was directing the ques to the guy that started the thread!!!! adn caps were on..and i have no idea what psd is

conway429
07-13-2008, 12:25 PM
acutally another point.

All of our past GMs drafted ALL STARS at some point and they did it with later picks (i think bosh was highest at 5)

STOUDAMIRE
CAMBY
McGrady
CARTER
BOSH


Stoudamire - 7th
Camby - 2nd
McGrady - 9th
Carter - 5th
Bosh - 4th

None of these players were selected with "later picks."
And all of these drafts were absolutely stacked with talent.
Bargnani was seen as the #1 pick in that draft, and most if not all GMs in the league would have taken him. It's just unfortunate that we got the #1 in such a weak draft.
So you can't totally blame him for Bargs, and trading this years pick was a good move... Hibbert wouldn't be the answer, JO could be.

ink
07-13-2008, 12:51 PM
THE THREAD IS CALLED...Collangelo is all HYPE and really is not so special ..Id say thats not really getting respect..i was directing the ques to the guy that started the thread!!!! adn caps were on..and i have no idea what psd is

PSD is the name of the site you're posting on. And BC gets more than his share of respect, so a thread or two that questions his moves isn't going to hurt him. Especially if there are lots of reasonable posts in the thread ... which there are.

RAPS424
07-13-2008, 12:55 PM
PSD is the name of the site you're posting on. And BC gets more than his share of respect, so a thread or two that questions his moves isn't going to hurt him. Especially if there are lots of reasonable posts in the thread ... which there are.

PRO SPORTS DAILY...GOT IT!!!! AND ONCE AGAIN..IM AWARE THAT HE GETS A LOT OF RESPECT..I WAS DIRECTING THE QUES TO........THE GUY...THAT STARTED THE THREAD....THATS ALL ......NOT BC'S STATUS AMONGST THE NBA PLAYERS AND SUITS...JUST THE GUY THAT STARTED THE THREAD..THATS IT!!!!!

ink
07-13-2008, 01:01 PM
PRO SPORTS DAILY...GOT IT!!!! AND ONCE AGAIN..IM AWARE THAT HE GETS A LOT OF RESPECT..I WAS DIRECTING THE QUES TO........THE GUY...THAT STARTED THE THREAD....THATS ALL ......NOT BC'S STATUS AMONGST THE NBA PLAYERS AND SUITS...JUST THE GUY THAT STARTED THE THREAD..THATS IT!!!!!

Good. Now can you take the cap lock off? Please don't post in caps. :) Thanks.

ramz.n
07-13-2008, 01:21 PM
ANdrea is the only bad pick IMO. and calderon is undrafted,

how is Andrea a bad pick?...the raptors worked out Aldridge, Morrison, Thomas and a few other other players..if BC selected Thomas or Morrison i would have considered the draft a bust, the only players from that draft who have completely proved there potential is Aldrigde and Roy who was like the 6th pick in the draft..so with the players avalible i wouldn't consider Bargnani a bad pick because at the time selecting Roy would have been to high of a pick..the only other option was Aldridge but Bargnani has a better offensive game

reevanson
07-13-2008, 01:33 PM
how is Andrea a bad pick?...the raptors worked out Aldridge, Morrison, Thomas and a few other other players..if BC selected Thomas or Morrison i would have considered the draft a bust, the only players from that draft who have completely proved there potential is Aldrigde and Roy who was like the 6th pick in the draft..so with the players avalible i wouldn't consider Bargnani a bad pick because at the time selecting Roy would have been to high of a pick..the only other option was Aldridge but Bargnani has a better offensive game

Great post, it was a very weak draft, although some of you out there have already given up on Bargs, I personaly think the jury is still out on him, while I dont expext him to be a superstar I do hope that he will eventually be a solid, 17 and 8 guy. His skill set is off the charts (i know i am going get ripped on for saying that) he just has that raw talent and I think a banger with a chip on his shoulder like JO will help him start putting all together.

clehmun
07-13-2008, 01:48 PM
i pretty much agreed with everything star said in his first post, including his prediction in rankings next year.
what i did not agree with was mopete and garbo.
i like garbo as a player, even though he struggled on his shooting, he's one of those guys that brings other things to the table.
as for mopete, he's one of the most overrated defender in the league. he could draw charges, but i don't remember him shutting down any all-star 2s or 3s. he's a below average player in the league. i know a lot of raptor fans like him, but i feel like i need to tell it as it is. he shouldn't be a starter in this league. how can you play with chris paul and have that kind of year? he doesn't have the defense to back up his horrible "rest of the game". BC did the right thing not to sign him.

now back to BC. remember, BC had A LOT to work with when he got here. unlike a lot of GMs who were unfairly rated, BC had the most ideal situation to work with. lots of cap space (from jalen rose), the #1 pick, prospects and trading pieces, all-star bigman in bosh, and the green light to do anything he wanted (pretty much).

BC is still a great GM in my books, definitely above average. but anyone's whos calling him god, or best GM in the league or anything like that is over hyping him. those titles belong to the spurs GM. probably the least talked about GM in the nba. but cmon, that guy is good. and up and coming portland GM. that guy not only gets something out of nothing. he gets something GREAT out of nothing. maybe i'm overpraising him, but i feel like he's one amazing GM.

the thing i like about the most about BC is willlingness to admit mistakes. not too many GMs do that.

he signed fred jones, didn't work, so immediately traded him for dixon, who also didn't work, so tried to trade him again. a lot of GMs would have kept jones, just for the fact that trading him a few months after signing him would have been admiting a mistake.

he traded CV for ford, and after a season, traded ford. again, ford was his guy. he could have just as easily (or even easier) to trade calderon away since he did not bring in calderon.
fans like calderon alot, but he could have said calderon just brought better players back.
but instead, he put his ego to the side, and did what's best for the team.

now drafting bargnani is not yet a mistake, but pretty close to it. i'd like to see what BC does with bargnani in the next year or two, because that will make or break BC as a GM. bargnani is his biggest move and project for the raptors. if bargnani turns out a mistake and he's even willing to admit and make up for that... you can't have a braver GM.

what i don't like is that for the past 3 years now. we've had the worst perimeter players in the league - THE WORST. and BC have yet to address that. every single team in the league right now has a BY FAR better SG/SF perimeter player than us. i know we've had the best PG combo, and now one of the best bigman combo. but sometimes we need a best TEAM combo, not the best combo on parts of the lineup. we need balance. let's see what BC will do.

gbus
07-13-2008, 01:49 PM
It is true, alot of hype surrounds BC, and it is true, he indeed is not a god. If he was, we would've won the NBA title the last two years. The reason we all say "In BC we trust" is because without looking too far into the situation, you would see that once BC took over as GM, our team's fortunes turned around almost immediately. Did BC acquire Jose? No he did not. Did he draft Bosh? Nope. But did Jose's level of play increase dramatically in Colangelo's first year with us? (Does that have anything to do with BC? No, but that's besides the point) Did BC resign Bosh? Yes he did. The fact that of the matter is good things started to happen when Colangelo became our GM, and because of that, so many of us can give him the preverbial "free pass" when he makes a mistake, or sound so optimistic when he makes a move. The guy is at worst, an average GM, and in most of our opinions, he's in the top half of the league as far as general managers go and we are all very grateful that we have a guy like him in Toronto. No he is not that special, but he's good and he knows what he's doing, end of story.

Oh, and one other thing. I've said it before and i'll say it again here, I simply cannot believe how people still make posts questioning BC's Ford/Charlie V trade. We got more quality out of TJ in his first season here than Milwaukee has gotten out of Charlie in his two years there, and that alone makes us the winners of that trade. And to say that the TJ trade held back Calderon's development is bizarre in my mind. We at the time needed a point guard and not many thought Jose would amount to what he is today, because he struggled in his first season here. That trade filled a need that we had no idea Calderon was capable of filling, and even if our general manager was very high on Jose, there's no way he could go into the coming season with a guy who hadn't had success in the league and wasn't sure thing to succeed.

blujaysrock
07-13-2008, 01:53 PM
how is Andrea a bad pick?...the raptors worked out Aldridge, Morrison, Thomas and a few other other players..if BC selected Thomas or Morrison i would have considered the draft a bust, the only players from that draft who have completely proved there potential is Aldrigde and Roy who was like the 6th pick in the draft..so with the players avalible i wouldn't consider Bargnani a bad pick because at the time selecting Roy would have been to high of a pick..the only other option was Aldridge but Bargnani has a better offensive game

like gay , roy? he could have traded down to number 3-6 and probably stil gotten bargs plus maybe a late first or 2nd rounder.

clehmun
07-13-2008, 02:00 PM
like gay , roy? he could have traded down to number 3-6 and probably stil gotten bargs plus maybe a late first or 2nd rounder.

agreed. if anything, that year was the year without any obvious first pick. every other year, the first pick or second have been decided a few months before the draft.

LBJ, dwight, oden, durant, rose, beasley, okafor, even andrew bogut. they were all consensus first picks (or 2nd).

but we did not have that in bargnani's year. i might be stretching it a little bit, but if anything, that was the year where you can say, anyone can be a first pick.
bargnani, tyrus, morrison, aldridge, gay, were all ranked first at some points of the draft.

ramz.n
07-13-2008, 04:46 PM
like gay , roy? he could have traded down to number 3-6 and probably stil gotten bargs plus maybe a late first or 2nd rounder.

he did try to trade down...noone bit, Bargnani was ranked the #1 pick and either Portland or Chicago would have selected him if he was avalible at the time..Roy was not expected to be the top pick, he was kind of under the radar and was not expected to be an impact player that he is right now, he was traded by the T'wolves for Foye, and look at Foye..i bet the T'wolves are kicking themselves..and as for Gay, he dropped all the way to 9th..and then was tradedby Houston for Battier..trading a player likehim with so much upside for a defender?..they probably didn't expect much from him...makes you think how scary it would have been to trade the #1 for the #6 and #9 pick..the raptors would have been crazy!

pg. Calderon
sg. Roy
sf. Gay
Pf. Bosh
c. Villaneuva?

scotttube
07-13-2008, 10:08 PM
That star guy got real quiet after everyone pointed out that Colangelo drafted Nash, Amare, and Marion.

Cortez
07-13-2008, 10:45 PM
hold on hold on
ur *****ing about BC drafting Bargs

babcok drafted RAFO

did u forget about that
hes not even playing in the nba anymore

The Wise 1
07-13-2008, 11:37 PM
hold on hold on
ur *****ing about BC drafting Bargs

babcok drafted RAFO

did u forget about that
hes not even playing in the nba anymore

Babcock isnt praised as god and no one here likes him. Plus, Hoffa was drafted 8th overall, not 1st.

argo
07-14-2008, 12:09 AM
it takes time to build a championship team.

BC pretty much dismantled a terrible team when he took over and turned it into a playoff team in his first year, and they won their division the next.

my one knock against BC is drafting Bargnani with the no.1 pick... but it wasn't a great talent pool by comparisons that year (the first year the nba put a stop to teams drafting high school players - we could have had Oden or Durant), but i haven't completely given up on Bargs yet.

as far as recent draft picks goes, we haven't had much to work with the past two years. Printezis could be a surprise though. having young guys developing over in europe, not on our time or payroll seems to be a smart move.

time will tell if the o'neal deal was a good one. i like it. i like the fact that BC's not affraid to take chances. with o'neal, he addressed the major concerns on the team - interior defence, toughness, and rebounding - all by trading ford, who we don't need with calderon, and rasho's $8m contract.

all things considered, i'm glad BC's our gm. he's helped to change the environment here in a positive way and brought respect back to the organization.

Fion
07-14-2008, 12:34 AM
year 1. Bc overhauled roster, we made playoffs for first time in years.
Year 2. took a step backwards, but no one forsaw caulderon getting so good and it being an issue with tj.
year 3: gave us Jermaine oneal.

postives makes moves, isnt afraid to shake things up.

Is he a god send? NOt really, of course bargs has issues etc. BUT did he improve the team? yes, do i believe he will continue to improve it? yes. do i believe he is the right gm for us? yes.

clehmun
07-14-2008, 04:08 AM
I don't wana start a new thread for this, so who thinks BC made the right choice for TJ?
if the Gerald Wallace rumours are trade, and i believe it is.

Who would you rather have with all things considered? Gerald Wallace or Jermaine O'neal?

its a tough one.

hades
07-14-2008, 09:09 AM
star makes some very good posts in this forum. If you disagree with him, please don't make it personal. I don't really agree with what you're saying here. I don't see anything wrong with starting a thread like this. Seems to me this forum is the perfect place for a discussion about the pros and cons of a GM. And there are people who don't like the JO trade at all. Since it's the one big move he made this season, I can see why people might be upset. Really, JO needs to come through with a big season to justify the move. (Same with Steve Kerr and the Shaq trade btw - Shaq really needs to come through big time for that move to look good).

your right, my bad. I appologize. rookie mistake. :D

pebloemer
07-14-2008, 09:28 AM
I have many problems with this thread. Bottom line, he is an excellent general manager.

back to bosh. stop praising babcock for that pick. if anybody pays attention to the raps they know the choice to pick bosh was largely due to kevin oneill. at the time babcock was leaning towards kirk hinrick...enough said. think this sounds too stupid to believe, well then think about the hoffa pick the next season.


I wouldn't be so harsh with your words here when your own information is off. Fun story though about Oneill pushing Babcock to draft Bosh, but Babcock was not even in the Raptors organization when Bosh was drafted. That was Grunwald's move.

miorae
07-14-2008, 09:48 AM
Hey guys,
Im starting to get pissed when everyone talks about BC as some kind of a god send. As the BEST GM. As the saviour of the raptors.

Really what has this guy done.

WHAT HE DIDNT DO:
Draft BOSH
Draft CALDERON

(regardless what anyone says these 2 players are to be credited with most of the success of the raptors - the rest are basically interchangable parts at this point but these 2 are the franchise guys) ...and NO BC did bring them here.


The good:
Found Jamrio Moon
Aquired Delfino
Aquired Parker
Traded away some ugly contracts

The Bad:

Drafted Andrea as #1 - for a "creative genious" with the first pick would it have been possible to trade down and still get Andrea + another asset?

Let MO Pete walk - who was our best perimeter defender ever, showed his playoff value in the NJ series, and his absence was definately felt against Orlando. You dont think MO PETE would have stayed here for cheap?

Re-Signed Sam Mitchel - It was a tough spot b/c Sam just won coach of the year (which was completely bogus). BUT it was clear in the last 2 playoff years that Sam cannot COACH - yes he is a good friend to players and a good motivator but DOES NOT know the basic fundatamentals of player rotations, offensive schemes, or defensive sets. Lets not even bring up his ATO plays (b/c he doesnt have a single one)

Over-paid for kapono - self explanatory

Signed Garbo - who ditched us

He did not get a 1st round pick in the past "DEEP" draft.

He totally missed the boat on buying NO's Pick, SA's pick.

He had a mediocre offseason( b/c he combined our 2 two best assets to get just 1 piece)


QUESTIONABLE:
Traded TJ for CV3 - i know this is arguable - but i look at it like this TJ slowed calderons development. Plus if we had CV3 we would not have drafted Bargs and may have had ROY or GAY



With these above points i really do not see why everyone loves and is so confident in BC. He has not made ANY ground breaking moves or and major additions.

Babcock - got BOSH and CALDERON and they are our major pieces. Yes he screwed the VC thing. But i think he likely would have drafted ROY or GAY too.

CV3/(this years pick)
Bosh
MO pete
ROY or GAY
Calderone/Ukic (would have been over 2 years ago)

I am almost tempted to say i would be very interested to see the babcock team play.


FYI Babcock didnt draft Bosh. Glen Grunwald drafted the PF and Chris Kaman was behind him.

miorae
07-14-2008, 09:49 AM
Garbo didnt walk - he was bought out. Because of his injury.

miorae
07-14-2008, 09:50 AM
Bosh was drafted by Glen Grunwald not Babcock.

miorae
07-14-2008, 09:56 AM
Babcock isnt praised as god and no one here likes him. Plus, Hoffa was drafted 8th overall, not 1st.


We actually passed on Igoudala...he came in at 9.

TERMANATER
07-14-2008, 10:46 AM
I like that MASTER P - plug.I just love how some wanna be GM's figure players just fall on their laps at will.First off when BC came to TO we had no point guard (love Jose but even b4 the season last year he wasn't a starter).CV hasn't been close to his rookie form and i believe both he and Barg's were runners up for ROY.So what if under BC we doubled the number of wins of the previous year.He's brought stability and with that comes players that will want to play in TO.Now the Raps have a true inside presence maybe Sam can use Kapono properly.The guy is the best 3 shooter in the NBA.Not Bc's fault Sam didn't watch the last 2 all-star games(probably golfing).BC gave Sam what he wanted in JO so it will be put up W's or get the ****** out you plug.

kenzo400
07-14-2008, 11:35 AM
Roy would of been nice but im not sold on Gay the stat stuffer, he had a bad rookie season and in year two he couldnt win with a pretty decent cast in Gasol, Miller, Darko and decent young guards. The result was the grizzlies had to tank again and trade gasol.


Umm, he had almost the same rookie year that Bargani did. The difference is that he didn't regress his second year, and now he is a 20 point scorer with 6.2 rebounds a game. He couldn't win with a decent cast? Oh come on, that is not a good cast for a team in the west. Just take a look at the other rosters.

Either way i woulnd't blame their losing on him. I mean he is a second year player. It is a bit much to expect him to be a young Dwayne Wade now.

Numbers
07-14-2008, 12:08 PM
It is great to criticize but almost every GM has a skeleton.

Danny Ainge is heralded for his deals this year but he had to hit a home run due to his horrible trades in prior years.

Traded Antoine Walker and Tony Delk for Jiri Welsh, Chris Mills, Raef Lafrentz and a future first round draft choice

Traded Ricky Davis, Marcus Banks, Justin Reed, Mark Blount and 2 second round picks for Wally Szcerbiak, Olowokandi and Dwayne Jones.

Joe Dumars - Detroit - Darko Milicic- before Bosh/Carmelo/Wade almost everyone else in the first round.

Buford - San Antonio - traded Leandro Barbosa rights to Phoenix for a future first round choice ( Colangelo fleeced him)


Hype may be justified in comparison.

argo
07-14-2008, 12:13 PM
how is Andrea a bad pick?...the raptors worked out Aldridge, Morrison, Thomas and a few other other players..if BC selected Thomas or Morrison i would have considered the draft a bust, the only players from that draft who have completely proved there potential is Aldrigde and Roy who was like the 6th pick in the draft..so with the players avalible i wouldn't consider Bargnani a bad pick because at the time selecting Roy would have been to high of a pick..the only other option was Aldridge but Bargnani has a better offensive game

don't forget Rudy Gay, he'd be exactly what we need.

khanraymond
07-14-2008, 02:05 PM
"NBA Comparison: Dirk Nowitzki>>>Bragnani
Good foot work, soft hands even if he's not particularly strong ... A fast player with very quick feet and first step for such a big guy, runs well in the fast break ... Shoots it quickly, with solid release and is also a great catch and shoot player ... Good one on one player who prefers to face the basket ... Bouncy, and will get up multiple times off two feet ... Good shot blocker ... Played an average of 12 minutes per game this season (2004-05) ... Generally impacts game tempo in a positive way when he's on the floor ... Makes plays. "
"NBA Comparison: Jalen Rose>>>Roy
Strengths: Roy is a no nonsense 2-guard with excellent all around skills ... Very cerebral player, makes excellent decisions. Understands the game ... Very polished, great experience with four years at Washington under his belt ... An excellent shooter who steps up in big situations. Hit a number of huge shots at the end of games this year ... Has worked hard on his outside shot which has improved each year ... Great competitor ... Excellent ball handler with the ability to create shots for himself and others ... His midrange game is relatively impressive and his range has really improved this year ... Really stepped up in his senior year assuming a leadership role and taking over as the go to player for the Huskies ... Has spent time at the point guard position this year, and played admirably ... Not afraid to take the ball inside. Utilizes the spin move in the paint well ... Good free throw shooter at 81% ... Has great composure and confidence. Never gets rattled ... Good one on one skills with the ability to shoot off the dribble and get by his man to the basket ... An underrated athlete ..."


Just curious - if Jalen Rose and Dirk Nowitzki were in the same draft - who SHOULD be the higher draft pick?
It's easy to say Roy was a better player now, but GM's rarely have their crystal working on draft night - all those cell phones in use must disrupt the frequency or something.

Second:
Dirk's first year in the league:- two allstar calibre players-Nash and Finley
8.2pts, 3.4rbs, 1ast, 0.6 stl, 0.6 blks, 1.55 TO in 20 minutes
Andres first year in the league:- one allstar calibre player-Bosh
11.6pts, 3.9rbs, 0.8ast, 0.5stl, 0.8 blks, 1.65 in 25 minutes

Dirks second year in the league:- two allstar calibre players-Nash and Finley
17.5 pts, 6.5 rbs, 2.5 ast, 0.8 stl, 0.8 blks, 1.72 TO in 36 minutes
Andres second year in the league:- one allstar calibre player-Bosh.
10.2 pts, 3.7 rbs, 1.1 ast, 0.3 stl, 0.5 blks, 1.13 TO in 24 minutes

one thing to note - Bosh and Bragnani play the same position - forcing Bragnani to learn a new position (C) - something Dirk didn't face.
second, if Bragnani averaged the same amount of minutes as Dirk his second year:
15.3 pts, 5.5 rbs, 1.6 ast, 0.5 stls, 0.7 blks, 1.7 TO (in 36 minutes)

so the former MVP had 2 more pts, 1 more rbs and 1 more ast in his second year compared to Bragnani in his second year (in the same amount of minutes) + Bragnani is playing out of position + playing along side a similiar player (whos the teams allstar - bosh) rather than playing along side two all-star guards (making him the primary foward) = Bragnani being called a bust?

Not that I'm saying Bragnani will become the next Dirk - but comparable.

Legitimate
07-14-2008, 02:51 PM
"NBA Comparison: Dirk Nowitzki>>>Bragnani
Good foot work, soft hands even if he's not particularly strong ... A fast player with very quick feet and first step for such a big guy, runs well in the fast break ... Shoots it quickly, with solid release and is also a great catch and shoot player ... Good one on one player who prefers to face the basket ... Bouncy, and will get up multiple times off two feet ... Good shot blocker ... Played an average of 12 minutes per game this season (2004-05) ... Generally impacts game tempo in a positive way when he's on the floor ... Makes plays. "
"NBA Comparison: Jalen Rose>>>Roy
Strengths: Roy is a no nonsense 2-guard with excellent all around skills ... Very cerebral player, makes excellent decisions. Understands the game ... Very polished, great experience with four years at Washington under his belt ... An excellent shooter who steps up in big situations. Hit a number of huge shots at the end of games this year ... Has worked hard on his outside shot which has improved each year ... Great competitor ... Excellent ball handler with the ability to create shots for himself and others ... His midrange game is relatively impressive and his range has really improved this year ... Really stepped up in his senior year assuming a leadership role and taking over as the go to player for the Huskies ... Has spent time at the point guard position this year, and played admirably ... Not afraid to take the ball inside. Utilizes the spin move in the paint well ... Good free throw shooter at 81% ... Has great composure and confidence. Never gets rattled ... Good one on one skills with the ability to shoot off the dribble and get by his man to the basket ... An underrated athlete ..."


Just curious - if Jalen Rose and Dirk Nowitzki were in the same draft - who SHOULD be the higher draft pick?
It's easy to say Roy was a better player now, but GM's rarely have their crystal working on draft night - all those cell phones in use must disrupt the frequency or something.

Second:
Dirk's first year in the league:- two allstar calibre players-Nash and Finley
8.2pts, 3.4rbs, 1ast, 0.6 stl, 0.6 blks, 1.55 TO in 20 minutes
Andres first year in the league:- one allstar calibre player-Bosh
11.6pts, 3.9rbs, 0.8ast, 0.5stl, 0.8 blks, 1.65 in 25 minutes

Dirks second year in the league:- two allstar calibre players-Nash and Finley
17.5 pts, 6.5 rbs, 2.5 ast, 0.8 stl, 0.8 blks, 1.72 TO in 36 minutes
Andres second year in the league:- one allstar calibre player-Bosh.
10.2 pts, 3.7 rbs, 1.1 ast, 0.3 stl, 0.5 blks, 1.13 TO in 24 minutes

one thing to note - Bosh and Bragnani play the same position - forcing Bragnani to learn a new position (C) - something Dirk didn't face.
second, if Bragnani averaged the same amount of minutes as Dirk his second year:
15.3 pts, 5.5 rbs, 1.6 ast, 0.5 stls, 0.7 blks, 1.7 TO (in 36 minutes)

so the former MVP had 2 more pts, 1 more rbs and 1 more ast in his second year compared to Bragnani in his second year (in the same amount of minutes) + Bragnani is playing out of position + playing along side a similiar player (whos the teams allstar - bosh) rather than playing along side two all-star guards (making him the primary foward) = Bragnani being called a bust?

Not that I'm saying Bragnani will become the next Dirk - but comparable.




You had made some extremely good points there. I always knew that Bargnani wasn't doing so well because he was learning a new position, and I though he wasn't being used properly. His 3 point % was sort of awful and he could have avg a lil more boards a game, then the critics would get off his tail last year. I have a feeling Bargnani will come out of training camp semi-polished, while he comes off the bench for Pf and baby shak comes first off the bench for C. I would love to see this happen. What if Bargnani excels? What if JO excells? You know BC could really be onto something here....He could even resign JO for like 16-17 to make a run for a championship, or even trade away Bargnani. BC always puts himself into a position where he can address weaknesses. If baby shak excells..there is all these scenerios...or we can trade away JO in his final year to get 22 mill worth of contracts to upgrade our roster. BC is a mastermind. This year will be the year, when next year we can really build possible 2-3 nba best team. Only BC put us in the position to do so..

I BRYAN COLANGELO WE TRUST.

Bob_at_york
07-14-2008, 03:24 PM
BRYAN Colangelo

clehmun
07-14-2008, 04:14 PM
BRYAN Colangelo

And to add to that:

Andrea BARGNANI
Jermaine O'NEAL

The Wise 1
07-14-2008, 08:25 PM
Second:
Dirk's first year in the league:- two allstar calibre players-Nash and Finley
8.2pts, 3.4rbs, 1ast, 0.6 stl, 0.6 blks, 1.55 TO in 20 minutes
Andres first year in the league:- one allstar calibre player-Bosh
11.6pts, 3.9rbs, 0.8ast, 0.5stl, 0.8 blks, 1.65 in 25 minutes

Dirks second year in the league:- two allstar calibre players-Nash and Finley
17.5 pts, 6.5 rbs, 2.5 ast, 0.8 stl, 0.8 blks, 1.72 TO in 36 minutes
Andres second year in the league:- one allstar calibre player-Bosh.
10.2 pts, 3.7 rbs, 1.1 ast, 0.3 stl, 0.5 blks, 1.13 TO in 24 minutes

one thing to note - Bosh and Bragnani play the same position - forcing Bragnani to learn a new position (C) - something Dirk didn't face.
second, if Bragnani averaged the same amount of minutes as Dirk his second year:
15.3 pts, 5.5 rbs, 1.6 ast, 0.5 stls, 0.7 blks, 1.7 TO (in 36 minutes)

so the former MVP had 2 more pts, 1 more rbs and 1 more ast in his second year compared to Bragnani in his second year (in the same amount of minutes) + Bragnani is playing out of position + playing along side a similiar player (whos the teams allstar - bosh) rather than playing along side two all-star guards (making him the primary foward) = Bragnani being called a bust?

Not that I'm saying Bragnani will become the next Dirk - but comparable.

Whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose.

lukeem21
07-14-2008, 08:35 PM
for everyone that thinks Andrea Bargnani's career is a bust.... i'm not going to say what i really think cause i'd just get blocked

he's going into his third year and has yet to be given an oppurtunity to get solid minutes at one poisition, which is obviously going to make the transition from europe to the nba more difficult.... this year he will probably be given minutes between 3 positions, but with the addition of O'neal, he might be given a little more freedom to play his own game and learn from him to become tougher.... i wouldnt be surprised if he starts breaking out half way through this year.... then really starts comming into his own the next two years.... to pass judgement on him and assume his career is going to be one way this early is poposterous

clehmun
07-14-2008, 09:28 PM
Whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose.

i agree. i honestly don't like it when people compare numbers by their year.
if you do that... almost every decent rookie in the league is and will be better than kobe bryant.

and you simply can't add the minutes and multiply the stats to get a better number for the comparison.
dirk had 17 in his 2nd year, bargnani had 10. end of story.

if someone averaged 2 points in 3 minutes, you can't go on and say he'll average 24 points if he's given dirk's 36 minutes a game.
theres a reason why bargnani only got 24 minutes last year. he often got lost, struggled, played bad defense, didn't rebound, forced shots, turned the ball over, was in the wrong position, and/or hurt the team more than helped, therefore got pulled out.

being able to play 36 minutes doesn't only mean the coach was nice and gave dirk more minutes, it meant he earned it. playing 36 minutes a game in this league is not a easy thing to do. thats something a lot of people don't realize.

by saying all that, i'm not giving my opinion of bargnani's game, or whether or not i think he is a bust or a good player.
i'm merely stating my opinion that comparing players using that way just doesn't work.

khanraymond
07-14-2008, 10:29 PM
i agree. i honestly don't like it when people compare numbers by their year.
if you do that... almost every decent rookie in the league is and will be better than kobe bryant.

and you simply can't add the minutes and multiply the stats to get a better number for the comparison.
dirk had 17 in his 2nd year, bargnani had 10. end of story.

if someone averaged 2 points in 3 minutes, you can't go on and say he'll average 24 points if he's given dirk's 36 minutes a game.
theres a reason why bargnani only got 24 minutes last year. he often got lost, struggled, played bad defense, didn't rebound, forced shots, turned the ball over, was in the wrong position, and/or hurt the team more than helped, therefore got pulled out.

being able to play 36 minutes doesn't only mean the coach was nice and gave dirk more minutes, it meant he earned it. playing 36 minutes a game in this league is not a easy thing to do. thats something a lot of people don't realize.

by saying all that, i'm not giving my opinion of bargnani's game, or whether or not i think he is a bust or a good player.
i'm merely stating my opinion that comparing players using that way just doesn't work.

agreed.
but the numbers were not to illustrate that Bargnani is better than Dirk or even on pace with Dirk - but to show that his season wasn't as disappointing as most think it was.
He performed on par as his rookie season - out of position - therefore his potential has not truely been displayed.

also, the numbers were used to illustrate that European players take longer get to that elite level. If Bargnani gets there is another question - but it is mistake to judge him in his first two seasons.

alot of people thought Caron Butler was a Bust - highly scouted before his arrival into the NBA, and was supposed to be the man in Miami. Didn't live up to it. The arrival of Wade made him dispensable - trade to LA - where he didn't live up to potential - traded for KWAME BROWN - and got a situation in Washington where he's an all-star.

I've said it a number of times - Bargnani will never reach his potential in Toronto because hes a PF at most - Toronto has to choose between him or Bosh. The most they will ever get is a solid bench contributor - not a strong enough defender and rebounder to pair with Bosh.

I think the perfect fit for him to grow is in Houston - along side Ming and TMac, where he can play PF beside a dominant C and a G that demands constant double teams. Another team where he could excel is the Spurs - with TD down low, Parker driving to the basket, Ginobili scoring and Bowen's defense - Bragnani could just sit back and let the game come to him rather than having to create his own shot.

I hope JO presence downlow will have a similiar effect on Bargnani's game.

But there is actually a rumour going around GS - it was on a radio station in which they were asked if they are in a rebuilding process and they said they are tring to recover from losing Davis, and missing their shot at signing Brand. They also said they would like a young PF who can stretch the defense beyond the 3pt line to fit Nelson's offense and to pair with their young core - i'm not sure of too many PF that can do that besides Bargnani - maybe Okur, Wallace - I know they have Harrington. It was just interesting when they said it - the first thing I thought was Bargnani along side Andris Biedrins + Marco Belinelli (fellow countryman) - imagine reuniting Harrington with ONeal.

zantabak
07-14-2008, 10:59 PM
IMO the Raps have the best GM out of all T.O. teams. Lets be honest, without Colangelo Bosh probably would'nt have re-signed. He's made very good trades, and signing the best 3 pt shooter in the league to 6 mil a yr isn't so bad. I think Kapono needs more run, especially during the regular season, but I have no doubts once that happens he'll prove his worth. Like some of you peeps have said, the Bargs draft was a soft draft, but consensus at that time was that Bargs was the #1 player in the draft, so lets not get it twisted, most GMs would have done the same. I don't know exactly what you mean as being a "special" GM, but I, for one, think Colangelo's doing the best he can, considering what he's been given. It's always easier said than done, and easier to be more critical in hindsight. Now, that being said, there's always room for improvement.

clehmun
07-14-2008, 11:10 PM
agreed.
but the numbers were not to illustrate that Bargnani is better than Dirk or even on pace with Dirk - but to show that his season wasn't as disappointing as most think it was.
He performed on par as his rookie season - out of position - therefore his potential has not truely been displayed.

also, the numbers were used to illustrate that European players take longer get to that elite level. If Bargnani gets there is another question - but it is mistake to judge him in his first two seasons.

alot of people thought Caron Butler was a Bust - highly scouted before his arrival into the NBA, and was supposed to be the man in Miami. Didn't live up to it. The arrival of Wade made him dispensable - trade to LA - where he didn't live up to potential - traded for KWAME BROWN - and got a situation in Washington where he's an all-star.

I've said it a number of times - Bargnani will never reach his potential in Toronto because hes a PF at most - Toronto has to choose between him or Bosh. The most they will ever get is a solid bench contributor - not a strong enough defender and rebounder to pair with Bosh.

I think the perfect fit for him to grow is in Houston - along side Ming and TMac, where he can play PF beside a dominant C and a G that demands constant double teams. Another team where he could excel is the Spurs - with TD down low, Parker driving to the basket, Ginobili scoring and Bowen's defense - Bragnani could just sit back and let the game come to him rather than having to create his own shot.

I hope JO presence downlow will have a similiar effect on Bargnani's game.

But there is actually a rumour going around GS - it was on a radio station in which they were asked if they are in a rebuilding process and they said they are tring to recover from losing Davis, and missing their shot at signing Brand. They also said they would like a young PF who can stretch the defense beyond the 3pt line to fit Nelson's offense and to pair with their young core - i'm not sure of too many PF that can do that besides Bargnani - maybe Okur, Wallace - I know they have Harrington. It was just interesting when they said it - the first thing I thought was Bargnani along side Andris Biedrins + Marco Belinelli (fellow countryman) - imagine reuniting Harrington with ONeal.

definitely agree.
i have to be honest and admit that i'm very disappointed with bargnani's development, and that i'm losing patience for him. but i agree it would be too early to call him a bust.

i also agree with your opinion that bargnani will never be his best in toronto. which is another reason i'm not liking the pick anymore. i liked it at first when i was convinced to believe bargnani can play C or SF. but the last two years, bargnani have proved he cannot do that.

while other young teams are waiting for their players to mature into their roles. it seems like we're a step behind because we're not even sure if our youngs can fit those roles. we're either waiting to see if bargnani can grow into a position he's not built for, or we're waiting for him grow into a little more valuable trading asset. some might not agree, but thats how i see it.
i just don't like the idea of a #1 pick being a career backup. and unless we're 100% sure bargnani can grow into the player we hoped for at PF, i will not trade bosh.
raptors made some moves to help shape the roster. but to me, it's still in a small mess. as the raptor fans, most of us still don't know what we're going to do with bargnani. we're all hoping he becomes something he's not.
while other teams with the #1 all have clearcut ideas.
oden at the very least will be a starting C for portland for the next decade, bogut, dhoward, yao ming same thing. derrick rose, key corner stone, and will be built around with other players. LBJ enough said. all those players, i see them having successful careers with their current teams. one of the reasons for that is they fit in well.

as for bargnani? how do i see his career as a raptor? umm he might be a C, might be a SF... although both unlikely. might be a bench player 6th man. might be traded. might be promoted to PF if we trade bosh. NO ONE KNOWS.
i know we're all supposed to be patient and give it a few more years. i will. but doesn't it sound discouraging sometimes when it's past the 2nd year, and you still don't know whats going on with your #1 pick?
even if bargnani becomes a good player, he still might not work well with bosh. not to mention, he's not even a good player yet. :smoking:

sorry for all the renting. kinda bored.
don't want to sound like a pessimistic raptor fan, so please don't get annoyed with all the negative talk.

also, if i were to trade bargnani to the warriors, i would want biedrins and belinelli back. IMO, getting harrington will not put us to the top, while it will cost us a big part of our future.

raptors wiseguy
07-15-2008, 12:03 AM
while other teams with the #1 all have clearcut ideas.
oden at the very least will be a starting C for portland for the next decade, bogut, dhoward, yao ming same thing. derrick rose, key corner stone, and will be built around with other players. LBJ enough said. all those players, i see them having successful careers with their current teams. one of the reasons for that is they fit in well.

as for bargnani? how do i see his career as a raptor? umm he might be a C, might be a SF... although both unlikely. might be a bench player 6th man. might be traded. might be promoted to PF if we trade bosh. NO ONE KNOWS.
i know we're all supposed to be patient and give it a few more years. i will. but doesn't it sound discouraging sometimes when it's past the 2nd year, and you still don't know whats going on with your #1 pick?
even if bargnani becomes a good player, he still might not work well with bosh. not to mention, he's not even a good player yet. :smoking:

sorry for all the renting. kinda bored.
don't want to sound like a pessimistic raptor fan, so please don't get annoyed with all the negative talk.

the difference between bargs and the other #1s you mentioned is that most of those players were consensus number 1 picks...anybody wouldve taken them and they would have been given a position to grow into

in bargs' year there was no consensus #1 but toronto liked bargs potential and took him...had any of those other players mentioned had been in bargs' draft year toronto wouldve taken them instead and given them a position to grow into

star
07-15-2008, 08:59 AM
Ok, there have been alot of points (some good some bad) that have been brought up here.

Lets just set some things straight:

I am not a HATER - just a huge raps fan that loves the team.

Second, i never said BC was a BAD GM ... my point was that he gets way too much hype and really hasnt brought much to the RAPTORS.

People have mentioned what he did in PHX, well i agree - however, i am a raps fan and dont really care how good he made PHX.

My main point was - as the RAPS GM he really has not outshinned ANY of our previous GMs in a huge way.

Someone said he resigned BOSH, well ya i guess, but thats not to say any other GM couldnt have. Also, our past GMs did resign another superstar - VC (yes i know he left on bad terms) but we DID keep him. So i dont think that BC signing BOSH is something that elevates BC to a new level. Plus the team was young and improving why WOULDNT bosh want to stay?

The GARBO thing, let me adress that - i think i didnt not convey my point well. My knock on BC was how he HANDLED it. For example there was a thread in here that LA made an offer to GARBO. Well if GARBO plays for LA or any other team then BC got hosed. Cause we didnt even get to use the contract for trade purposes. PLUS his buyout counts aginst our cap doesnt it?

ANDREA - i love the kid. I think he will be a great player. BUT i think he could have been had at 3 - 5 in the draft. I think a "creative GM" as BC is said to be could have maybe done alot with the pick. EVEN if he traded the pick for a future 1st if the draft was so weak. #1's are valuable and when there is no concensus pick then really why not take a chance on dropping to even 5 .... we would have had either Andrea,Aldridge, gay, roy etc... we would be not worse off.

The CV/Ford thing, yes i can see the point that it was a good trade. However, i think CV is WAY under-rated. I think a front court of BARGS, CB, CV would be dangerous. (none of them are centers but a team rebounding approach could get it done). They are all fast(for their positions) and can shoot and would cause major matchup probs. CV WAS lazy and unmotivated at times. but i think alot of young athletes are when in a crappy non-playoff team (MIL) plus he was clogged up there with guys and hardly got a decent shot at playing. I think CV in toronto on a playoff team would have been huge. Remember how many offensive tips and boards he could get when he WAS motivated. And nothing is a better motivator than a talented young team in a playoff series.

People bring up the record. Well the year before BC didnt we lose something like 20 games (nba record anyways) by 3 pts or less. Anyone that watched knew that we were right there in those games. Suppose just 1/2 or 3/4 of them went the other way (which they did the next year) then we would have been a 38-42 win team. That was more a function of Bosh being a year older and a year better.


Yes, BC has done good (see my first post). My point is that the raps are the RAPS because of JOSE and BOSH. I think BC has made some LATERAL moves and not really made any MAJOR steps forward.

blujaysrock
07-15-2008, 09:01 AM
BC has made this team a playoff contender ? what do you mean hasn't brought much to the team?

star
07-15-2008, 09:03 AM
For a GM that gets his hype - going into his 3rd season our roster does not look THAT much better than it probably would have if we stayed on the BABCOCK course.

I am by no means saying that i want babcock back or i want to fire BC - all i am saying is that i am not overly impressed by or blown away by BC as i had hoped to be.

star
07-15-2008, 09:05 AM
BC has made this team a playoff contender ? what do you mean hasn't brought much to the team?

OMG!
you are missing the point.

I dont think BC made this team a playoff team. i think REGARDLESS of BC or whoever being GM, we would have been a playoff team just because BOSH and JOSE + ANY semidecent players would have made the playoffs the last 2 years in the Atlantic/east

star
07-15-2008, 09:11 AM
The year we won the ATLANTIC it was a joke.
BOS/NYK were writeoffs they didnt even care to play
PHI had lost iverson and were rebuilding.

Thats 2 teams rebulinding (BOS, PHI), 1 team just a mess (NYK) leaving just jersey (who i believe had a bad year injury wise)

OFCOURSE we were going to win the atlantic that year.

Now as for improvement. Since that year, we have dropped in number of wins.
We again lost in the 1st round
We lost in the first round - and got beat down to boot.
We lost to ORLANDO (a team with less talent than the NETS)

So NO we havent been improving since BC got here. We are the same. OTHER teams are now improving in big ways (BOS, PHI)

So NOW i think we are in trouble.

pebloemer
07-15-2008, 09:34 AM
The year we won the ATLANTIC it was a joke.
BOS/NYK were writeoffs they didnt even care to play
PHI had lost iverson and were rebuilding.

Thats 2 teams rebulinding (BOS, PHI), 1 team just a mess (NYK) leaving just jersey (who i believe had a bad year injury wise)

OFCOURSE we were going to win the atlantic that year.

Now as for improvement. Since that year, we have dropped in number of wins.
We again lost in the 1st round
We lost in the first round - and got beat down to boot.
We lost to ORLANDO (a team with less talent than the NETS)

So NO we havent been improving since BC got here. We are the same. OTHER teams are now improving in big ways (BOS, PHI)

So NOW i think we are in trouble.

That's arguable.

But as for as your points, I do agree with you, he has not had as big of an impact as everyone says. But I love having BC because he makes so many moves, evaluates the situation openly and honestly and will do what it takes to win. The JO trade may illuminate your point more, or it could be the big step forward, we'll see.

Bob_at_york
07-15-2008, 09:55 AM
ANDREA - i love the kid. I think he will be a great player. BUT i think he could have been had at 3 - 5 in the draft. I think a "creative GM" as BC is said to be could have maybe done alot with the pick. EVEN if he traded the pick for a future 1st if the draft was so weak. #1's are valuable and when there is no concensus pick then really why not take a chance on dropping to even 5 .... we would have had either Andrea,Aldridge, gay, roy etc... we would be not worse off.
Once again, BC says he tried to trade down but couldn't get anything done.

The year we won the ATLANTIC it was a joke.
BOS/NYK were writeoffs they didnt even care to play
PHI had lost iverson and were rebuilding.

Thats 2 teams rebulinding (BOS, PHI), 1 team just a mess (NYK) leaving just jersey (who i believe had a bad year injury wise)

OFCOURSE we were going to win the atlantic that year.
Just because the Atlantic division wasn't strong that year doesn't take anything away from our win total.

B2B
07-15-2008, 11:16 AM
OMG!
you are missing the point.

I dont think BC made this team a playoff team. i think REGARDLESS of BC or whoever being GM, we would have been a playoff team just because BOSH and JOSE + ANY semidecent players would have made the playoffs the last 2 years in the Atlantic/east

No, I think you're missing the point.

Bosh & Jose were apart of a Raptor team that missed the playoffs a year prior. What BC did, that you think was Lateral movements in signing Garbo,TJ & Parker was bring players in who knew how to win who had a history of winning. He brought players who knew what it took to play team ball which created a formula of chemistry with character & a winning enviornment. You may think the moves were insignificant because there was no big names, stars but the moves he made were critical to the mental makeup of the team (He created a winning enviornment). Now he's looking to upgrade the talent but much like when you build a house you must first lay down a strong foundation & BC has accomplished that with the enviorment he created. The regression in our second year has left you wanting & questioning but don't doubt we are headed in the right direction.

Their is no such thing as perfection but their is progression and we r doing that.

P.S you'll note that I mentioned character,chemistry & team play in my point above. This past year TJ looked to not display that, what did BC do?.

He traded his ***, that's progression. He is continually doing what he feels he needs to do to improve this team. Mistakes will be made but it's how he deals with them that makes him good.

clehmun
07-15-2008, 04:11 PM
Once again, BC says he tried to trade down but couldn't get anything done.

that is what everyone have been saying. i agree and i disagree.

if he were that creative, why couldn't he get anything done? if anything, people saying BC "tried" but no one bit, is an argument against BC. i don't get how people are using that point to help BC.

i'm not blaming him for other GMs not biting... but it certainly isn't to his favour.

another reason why i thought no one bit was because weeks and months before the draft, it was pretty obvious that he was going to pick bargnani.
think of it this way. if a normal raptor fan was pretty sure we were gona pick bargnani, other GMs would know for sure.

if portland wanted aldridge, and they knew toronto wanted bargnani, why would they trade down? theres no risk in losing the player they want.

RAPS424
07-15-2008, 04:18 PM
Ok, there have been alot of points (some good some bad) that have been brought up here.

Lets just set some things straight:


JOUDREYMy main point was - as the RAPS GM he really has not outshinned ANY of our previous GMs in a huge way.

JOUDREYANDREA - i love the kid. I think he will be a great player. BUT i think he could have been had at 3 - 5 in the draft. I think a "creative GM" as BC is said to be could have maybe done alot with the pick. EVEN if he traded the pick for a future 1st if the draft was so weak. #1's are valuable and when there is no concensus pick then really why not take a chance on dropping to even 5 .... we would have had either Andrea,Aldridge, gay, roy etc... we would be not worse off.

People bring up the record. Well the year before BC didnt we lose something like 20 games (nba record anyways) by 3 pts or less. Anyone that watched knew that we were right there in those games. Suppose just 1/2 or 3/4 of them went the other way (which they did the next year) then we would have been a 38-42 win team. That was more a function of Bosh being a year older and a year better.
Yes, BC has done good (see my first post). My point is that the raps are the RAPS because of JOSE and BOSH. I think BC has made some LATERAL moves and not really made any MAJOR steps forward.

WOW.. A LOT OF IFS IN THERE...U SAID TRADE THE #1 PICK FOR A FUTURE #1 PICK, HOW DOES ONE PREDICT WHO IS GONA GET A #1PICK?? AND THINK WE COULD HAVE AD HIM AT 3-5... U DONT KNOW THAT..ITS A RANDOM GUESS...I HEARD CHICAGO WAS EYEING HIM..WE WON 27GAMES...... DOES IT MATTER WHAT WE LOST BY......ARE U TELLING ME WE DIDNT LOSE ANY GAMES THE NEXT YEAR BY SMALL MARGINS??? SO BY UR LOGIC WE COULDA BEEN A 56 WIN TEAM IF U COUNT LOSSES BYE 2-3 POINTS... BOSH AND CALDERON?? THATS IT?? TJ DIDNT HELP??
HOW BOUT PARKER?? HE WAS THE 2ND LEADING SCORER... AND IM PRETTY SURE GARBO HAD A HUGE PART OF THAT FIRST WINNING SEASON....MAN ..AT LEAST MAKE SENSE.. MANY MORE POINTS TO DISPUTE...BUT THIS IS TOO LONG ALREADY!!!..WOW UR HATER!!!

Bob_at_york
07-15-2008, 04:39 PM
that is what everyone have been saying. i agree and i disagree.

if he were that creative, why couldn't he get anything done? if anything, people saying BC "tried" but no one bit, is an argument against BC. i don't get how people are using that point to help BC.
I use it as an argument FOR BC because people claim he didn't try and that to me denotes laziness and BC is not lazy. So that is why I argue that point, BC did try.


another reason why i thought no one bit was because weeks and months before the draft, it was pretty obvious that he was going to pick bargnani.
think of it this way. if a normal raptor fan was pretty sure we were gona pick bargnani, other GMs would know for sure.

if portland wanted aldridge, and they knew toronto wanted bargnani, why would they trade down? theres no risk in losing the player they want.
I totally agree, that is exactly what happened. BC screwed that one up. He needed to be more coy but in the end Bargnani didn't help the situation by claiming he only wanted to play for the Raptors. Any bargining position that BC had went out the window with that claim.

The Wise 1
07-15-2008, 04:42 PM
[/B]

WOW.. A LOT OF IFS IN THERE...U SAID TRADE THE #1 PICK FOR A FUTURE #1 PICK, HOW DOES ONE PREDICT WHO IS GONA GET A #1PICK?? AND THINK WE COULD HAVE AD HIM AT 3-5... U DONT KNOW THAT..ITS A RANDOM GUESS...I HEARD CHICAGO WAS EYEING HIM..WE WON 27GAMES...... DOES IT MATTER WHAT WE LOST BY......ARE U TELLING ME WE DIDNT LOSE ANY GAMES THE NEXT YEAR BY SMALL MARGINS??? SO BY UR LOGIC WE COULDA BEEN A 56 WIN TEAM IF U COUNT LOSSES BYE 2-3 POINTS... BOSH AND CALDERON?? THATS IT?? TJ DIDNT HELP??
HOW BOUT PARKER?? HE WAS THE 2ND LEADING SCORER... AND IM PRETTY SURE GARBO HAD A HUGE PART OF THAT FIRST WINNING SEASON....MAN ..AT LEAST MAKE SENSE.. MANY MORE POINTS TO DISPUTE...BUT THIS IS TOO LONG ALREADY!!!..WOW UR HATER!!!

Seriously, going from the bottom left hand corner, go up 3 keys and hit that key.

star
07-15-2008, 04:55 PM
[/B]

WOW.. A LOT OF IFS IN THERE...U SAID TRADE THE #1 PICK FOR A FUTURE #1 PICK, HOW DOES ONE PREDICT WHO IS GONA GET A #1PICK?? AND THINK WE COULD HAVE AD HIM AT 3-5... U DONT KNOW THAT..ITS A RANDOM GUESS...I HEARD CHICAGO WAS EYEING HIM..WE WON 27GAMES...... DOES IT MATTER WHAT WE LOST BY......ARE U TELLING ME WE DIDNT LOSE ANY GAMES THE NEXT YEAR BY SMALL MARGINS??? SO BY UR LOGIC WE COULDA BEEN A 56 WIN TEAM IF U COUNT LOSSES BYE 2-3 POINTS... BOSH AND CALDERON?? THATS IT?? TJ DIDNT HELP??
HOW BOUT PARKER?? HE WAS THE 2ND LEADING SCORER... AND IM PRETTY SURE GARBO HAD A HUGE PART OF THAT FIRST WINNING SEASON....MAN ..AT LEAST MAKE SENSE.. MANY MORE POINTS TO DISPUTE...BUT THIS IS TOO LONG ALREADY!!!..WOW UR HATER!!!

Dude,relax.

I didnt say we would trade a #1 for a #1 .... i didnt really think i needed to break it down, but i guess i over-estimated you. soo... you trade the 1st overall for a talented player (in the NBA with a team looking to rebuild) + a future 1st rounder (yes it maynot be the 1st overall)

Whn you set an NBA record for losses by 3 pts or less.. you can assume that chances are it WONT happen again (esp with a young and improving group of players) so by defualt you can assume you would get an extra 10 or so wins. In other words ... our 27 wins was an annomoly. It would different if we lost most of those games by 10+ points. The argument is that if we lost most by 1-3 pts it came down to the last shots/plays. It is SAFE to assume that we would not come on the short end of this AGAIN 20 times..... get it? got it? good.

And i feel my post did make sense ... dont blame me if you have comprehension problems

star
07-15-2008, 05:06 PM
[/B]

WOW.. A LOT OF IFS IN THERE...U SAID TRADE THE #1 PICK FOR A FUTURE #1 PICK, HOW DOES ONE PREDICT WHO IS GONA GET A #1PICK?? AND THINK WE COULD HAVE AD HIM AT 3-5... U DONT KNOW THAT..ITS A RANDOM GUESS...I HEARD CHICAGO WAS EYEING HIM..WE WON 27GAMES...... DOES IT MATTER WHAT WE LOST BY......ARE U TELLING ME WE DIDNT LOSE ANY GAMES THE NEXT YEAR BY SMALL MARGINS??? SO BY UR LOGIC WE COULDA BEEN A 56 WIN TEAM IF U COUNT LOSSES BYE 2-3 POINTS... BOSH AND CALDERON?? THATS IT?? TJ DIDNT HELP??
HOW BOUT PARKER?? HE WAS THE 2ND LEADING SCORER... AND IM PRETTY SURE GARBO HAD A HUGE PART OF THAT FIRST WINNING SEASON....MAN ..AT LEAST MAKE SENSE.. MANY MORE POINTS TO DISPUTE...BUT THIS IS TOO LONG ALREADY!!!..WOW UR HATER!!!


oh ya ... Garbo, Parker, they were big. BUT they were role players. A dime a dozen. We had a guy by the name of Mike James, who if you look at a single season was the raps second leading scorer.

The core was BOSH/TJ then BOSH/CALDERON ... thats it. Regardless of who else stepped in (Mo Pete, Mike James, Jalen Rose, Jamrio Moon, Bargs etc) The main thing was the PG and BOSH ...

star
07-15-2008, 05:28 PM
[/B]

WOW.. A LOT OF IFS IN THERE...U SAID TRADE THE #1 PICK FOR A FUTURE #1 PICK, HOW DOES ONE PREDICT WHO IS GONA GET A #1PICK?? AND THINK WE COULD HAVE AD HIM AT 3-5... U DONT KNOW THAT..ITS A RANDOM GUESS...I HEARD CHICAGO WAS EYEING HIM..WE WON 27GAMES...... DOES IT MATTER WHAT WE LOST BY......ARE U TELLING ME WE DIDNT LOSE ANY GAMES THE NEXT YEAR BY SMALL MARGINS??? SO BY UR LOGIC WE COULDA BEEN A 56 WIN TEAM IF U COUNT LOSSES BYE 2-3 POINTS... BOSH AND CALDERON?? THATS IT?? TJ DIDNT HELP??
HOW BOUT PARKER?? HE WAS THE 2ND LEADING SCORER... AND IM PRETTY SURE GARBO HAD A HUGE PART OF THAT FIRST WINNING SEASON....MAN ..AT LEAST MAKE SENSE.. MANY MORE POINTS TO DISPUTE...BUT THIS IS TOO LONG ALREADY!!!..WOW UR HATER!!!

hahah again, i didnt ASSUME we could have Andrea at 3 - 5 .... i SAID we wouldt have had ONE OF Aldridge, Roy, Gay or BARGS .... and that it really wouldnt have made a difference which one we got cause they are all about the same callibre (except roy ... but who would have knew that)

some advice.... read a sentence ... the WHOLE sentence ... take a second .... digest it ... read it again ... then formulate an argument

B2B
07-15-2008, 05:55 PM
oh ya ... Garbo, Parker, they were big. BUT they were role players. A dime a dozen. We had a guy by the name of Mike James, who if you look at a single season was the raps second leading scorer.

The core was BOSH/TJ then BOSH/CALDERON ... thats it. Regardless of who else stepped in (Mo Pete, Mike James, Jalen Rose, Jamrio Moon, Bargs etc) The main thing was the PG and BOSH ...

What I highlighted helps further illustrate my point. You're under estimating the importance of players knowing & playing their role. Mike James was our second leading scorer, on a team that failed to make the playoffs. BC moved him in favor of our role players in Garbo & Parker but funny enough those dime a dozen players took us from a team that missed the playoffs to a team that made the playoffs & a division title in one year. Why couldn't James our second leading scorer accomplish that over role players?. Garbo getting injured is something that cannot be faulted on BC's behalf. TJ & Calderon not being able to accept their roles, cannot be faulted on his behalf. Picking Andrea was a risk that hasn't panned out. Can he be faulted for this judgement yes he can but from my point of view I love the fact that he was swinging for the fences. Sure he missed with Andrea so it would seem but I'm happy knowing that he was atleast looking for the fence. I like the fact that he thinks big and outside the box.

BC created a credible & stable franchise in one year. That can't & shouldn't be overlooked. Much like you we all want more but to deny what BC has done is off. BC changed the culture of this team no matter how negatively you view his picks and transactions. Like I said before mistakes will be made but it's how he deals with those mistakes that matters most, he's not complacent.

star
07-15-2008, 06:05 PM
What I highlighted helps further illustrate my point. You're under estimating the importance of players knowing & playing their role. Mike James was our second leading scorer, on a team that failed to make the playoffs. BC moved him in favor of our role players in Garbo & Parker but funny enough those dime a dozen players took us from a team that missed the playoffs to a team that made the playoffs & a division title in one year. Why couldn't James our second leading scorer accomplish that over role players?. Garbo getting injured is something that cannot be faulted on BC's behalf. TJ & Calderon not being able to accept their roles, cannot be faulted on his behalf. Picking Andrea was a risk that hasn't panned out. Can he be faulted for this judgement yes he can but from my point of view I love the fact that he was swinging for the fences. Sure he missed with Andrea so it would seem but I'm happy knowing that he was atleast looking for the fence. I like the fact that he thinks big and outside the box.

BC created a credible & stable franchise in one year. That can't & shouldn't be overlooked. Much like you we all want more but to deny what BC has done is off. BC changed the culture of this team no matter how negatively you view his picks and transactions. Like I said before mistakes will be made but it's how he deals with those mistakes that matters most, he's not complacent.

It is my contention that EVEN if the roster was unchanged from the 27 win team to the next season we STILL would have improved. (just because bosh would have been better) and we lost all those games by 3 pts or else. So this is a marginal justification as to BC being a great GM.

When you take a 27 win team (which not matter what would have improved) you really cant go wrong ... i mean they were at the bottom so even if he made dumb deals the team would have probably done better anyways (lets face it you cant go much worse than 27 wins).

Your argument is for role players and a "culture"

Well we had that before ...

Carter-williams--Mcgrade-williams-AD they all loved to play together they had a good culture and role players. That was grunwald was it not?

and again with Mo pete, jalen, CV, Bosh - they were friendly and got along and had chemistry That was babcock right?

Actually most raptor teams have been rather freindly with little drama and internal squabbaling (as compared to other teams) so i would say that chemisrty has rarely been an issue

So BC collected another group of people who like to play together and know where to pass the ball .... that is not something NEW to Toronto.

star
07-15-2008, 06:09 PM
What I highlighted helps further illustrate my point. You're under estimating the importance of players knowing & playing their role. Mike James was our second leading scorer, on a team that failed to make the playoffs. BC moved him in favor of our role players in Garbo & Parker but funny enough those dime a dozen players took us from a team that missed the playoffs to a team that made the playoffs & a division title in one year. Why couldn't James our second leading scorer accomplish that over role players?. Garbo getting injured is something that cannot be faulted on BC's behalf. TJ & Calderon not being able to accept their roles, cannot be faulted on his behalf. Picking Andrea was a risk that hasn't panned out. Can he be faulted for this judgement yes he can but from my point of view I love the fact that he was swinging for the fences. Sure he missed with Andrea so it would seem but I'm happy knowing that he was atleast looking for the fence. I like the fact that he thinks big and outside the box.

BC created a credible & stable franchise in one year. That can't & shouldn't be overlooked. Much like you we all want more but to deny what BC has done is off. BC changed the culture of this team no matter how negatively you view his picks and transactions. Like I said before mistakes will be made but it's how he deals with those mistakes that matters most, he's not complacent.


I think we were a credible and stable franchise through the Vince years ... we made the playoffs and were credible. And by your logic T-Mac leaving isnt the fault of the GM at that time. Nor is carter deciding to handcuff the team by crying and demanding a trade.

I think the franchise was well on an upswing before BC.

After the Carter fiasco (yes poorly handled) but we were coming out of it. We had some good talent Bosh-CV-Calderon-MoPete-Jalen etc .... with another high pick (ROY or someone) we would have been fine.

BC DID help us .... just not in a remarkable or huge way

star
07-15-2008, 06:11 PM
Its like the situation with the knicks ....

you could give ANYONE even Babcock the keys to that organization and they will be called a genious (just because there is nowhere to go but up) ... so how can you really screw it up?

star
07-15-2008, 06:15 PM
If people on this forum are trying to tell me that BC is the best because or Moon, Garbo and Parker then that is weak ... there are very few good teams where these guys would even get 6th man roles

There are way more knocks against BC than pros ....

yes he does TRY and does "swing for the fences" but show me results ... moreover show me results that are because of moves you make ... not tweaks to the bench, finding the best D-leauge player ... or drafting a project

RAPS424
07-15-2008, 06:32 PM
oh ya ... Garbo, Parker, they were big. BUT they were role players. A dime a dozen. We had a guy by the name of Mike James, who if you look at a single season was the raps second leading scorer.

The core was BOSH/TJ then BOSH/CALDERON ... thats it. Regardless of who else stepped in (Mo Pete, Mike James, Jalen Rose, Jamrio Moon, Bargs etc) The main thing was the PG and BOSH ...

LOL..MIKE JAMES..YEA...HE DID GREAT FOR US...DIFF IS... WE LOST WITH HIM.WON WITH PARKER... HEARD OF BASKETBALL INTELLEGENCE. JAMES WAS A BALL HOG..AND HE FORCED UP SHOT AFTER SHOT..BC COMPRISED A TEAM OF "TEAM PLAYERS..." WINNERS.. GREAT COMPARISON THO...GOOD JOB!!!!

star
07-15-2008, 06:37 PM
winners? what have we won? 2 playoff games?

star
07-15-2008, 06:38 PM
and for god sake take off CAPS its almost more annoying than YOUR basketball IQ

RAPS424
07-15-2008, 06:38 PM
BC is said to be could have maybe done alot with the pick. BC is said to be could have maybe done alot with the pick. EVEN if he traded the pick for a future 1st if the draft was so weak. #1's are valuable and when there is no concensus pick then really why not take a chance on dropping to even #1's are valuable and when there is no concensus pick then really why not take a chance on dropping to even ..
UM..YEA...THAT IS WHAT U SAID...READ UR OWN POST....SHOW ME WHERE IT MENTIONS USING THE PICK TO GET A TALENTED PLAYER... DONT CHANGE WHAT U MEAN LATER ..AND TRY TO USE IT AGAINST ME..LOL... IUR RIGHT I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN U MEANT SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFF THEN WHAT U SAID...LOL...

RAPS424
07-15-2008, 06:40 PM
And Yes..i Now Realize I Doubled Up On The Copy Andpost

star
07-15-2008, 06:42 PM
Ok, there have been alot of points (some good some bad) that have been brought up here.

Lets just set some things straight:

I am not a HATER - just a huge raps fan that loves the team.

Second, i never said BC was a BAD GM ... my point was that he gets way too much hype and really hasnt brought much to the RAPTORS.

People have mentioned what he did in PHX, well i agree - however, i am a raps fan and dont really care how good he made PHX.

My main point was - as the RAPS GM he really has not outshinned ANY of our previous GMs in a huge way.

Someone said he resigned BOSH, well ya i guess, but thats not to say any other GM couldnt have. Also, our past GMs did resign another superstar - VC (yes i know he left on bad terms) but we DID keep him. So i dont think that BC signing BOSH is something that elevates BC to a new level. Plus the team was young and improving why WOULDNT bosh want to stay?

The GARBO thing, let me adress that - i think i didnt not convey my point well. My knock on BC was how he HANDLED it. For example there was a thread in here that LA made an offer to GARBO. Well if GARBO plays for LA or any other team then BC got hosed. Cause we didnt even get to use the contract for trade purposes. PLUS his buyout counts aginst our cap doesnt it?

ANDREA - i love the kid. I think he will be a great player. BUT i think he could have been had at 3 - 5 in the draft. I think a "creative GM" as BC is said to be could have maybe done alot with the pick. EVEN if he traded the pick for a future 1st if the draft was so weak. #1's are valuable and when there is no concensus pick then really why not take a chance on dropping to even 5 .... we would have had either Andrea,Aldridge, gay, roy etc... we would be not worse off.

The CV/Ford thing, yes i can see the point that it was a good trade. However, i think CV is WAY under-rated. I think a front court of BARGS, CB, CV would be dangerous. (none of them are centers but a team rebounding approach could get it done). They are all fast(for their positions) and can shoot and would cause major matchup probs. CV WAS lazy and unmotivated at times. but i think alot of young athletes are when in a crappy non-playoff team (MIL) plus he was clogged up there with guys and hardly got a decent shot at playing. I think CV in toronto on a playoff team would have been huge. Remember how many offensive tips and boards he could get when he WAS motivated. And nothing is a better motivator than a talented young team in a playoff series.

People bring up the record. Well the year before BC didnt we lose something like 20 games (nba record anyways) by 3 pts or less. Anyone that watched knew that we were right there in those games. Suppose just 1/2 or 3/4 of them went the other way (which they did the next year) then we would have been a 38-42 win team. That was more a function of Bosh being a year older and a year better.


Yes, BC has done good (see my first post). My point is that the raps are the RAPS because of JOSE and BOSH. I think BC has made some LATERAL moves and not really made any MAJOR steps forward.


like i said before ... read .... re-read .... digest .... take a second ... read again ... ask a friend ... get a dictionary.... put on glasses ... whatever it take

star
07-15-2008, 06:45 PM
and why would we trade down WITHOUT getting something coming back? are you new buddy?

USUALLY ... trade #1 for lower pick + player

dont you get it?

star
07-15-2008, 06:45 PM
someone get this guy a video game at least

B2B
07-15-2008, 06:49 PM
It is my assumption that EVEN if the roster was unchanged from the 27 win team to the next season we STILL would have improved. (just because bosh would have been better) and we lost all those games by 3 pts or else. So this is a marginal justification as to BC being a great GM.

When you take a 27 win team (which not matter what would have improved) you really cant go wrong ... i mean they were at the bottom so even if he made dumb deals the team would have probably done better anyways (lets face it you cant go much worse than 27 wins).

Your argument is for role players and a "culture"

Well we had that before ...

Carter-williams--Mcgrade-williams-AD they all loved to play together they had a good culture and role players. That was grunwald was it not?

and again with Mo pete, jalen, CV, Bosh - they were friendly and got along and had chemistry That was babcock right?

Actually most raptor teams have been rather freindly with little drama and internal squabbaling (as compared to other teams) so i would say that chemisrty has rarely been an issue

So BC collected another group of people who like to play together and know where to pass the ball .... that is not something NEW to Toronto.

In order to base an argument you must have a grounds. Assumptions & opinions don't count as grounds for an argument facts do because you cannot say with an assurity that this team would've won despite BC because the only place they could've gone was up from 27 wins. You don't know, James could still be on the roster and we could've been back in the lottery for all you know. It's alot of if's as another poster pointed out. Without an actual scenario you have no proof other than personal opinion which is not fair judgement.

For argument sake before BC became the GM how many consecutive losing seasons did we have?.

If I'm not mistaken it was 3 correct me if I'm wrong because I was out of the loop being in Trinidad without coverage. If we had 3 consecutive losing seasons how can you say season 4 would've been any different?. If you ask me season 4 would've been much like the previous three and without BC possibly the only reason Bosh stayed even worst, as it can be argued that a Boshless Raptor team would've been even worst than 27 wins.

The team BC put together matched the best season ever in Raptors history & that was accomplished in one year. Where the other Raptor teams took several years to accomplish that.

Year 2 had set backs. We had no 1st round pick due to a previous trade, Garbo got injured, TJ & Jose had problems splitting mins etc....

This year BC addressed those temporary setbacks while improving some of the teams weaknesses. I'm sure this season coming we'll be amongst the division leaders once again if O'Neal stays healthy.

To me this is BC's defining season as our general manager.

star
07-15-2008, 07:15 PM
My argument is based in the FACT that we had an NBA record 20 something losses by 3 pts or less.

Based on the FACT that our star was still a star and was just becominga SUPERSTAR.

The LAWs of averages would stand to reason that this would likely not occur again.

Ie. That is 20 last minute shots/plays ... for some reason we got unlucky and lost 20 times ... chances are we would not be that unlucky again.

talk.sick
07-15-2008, 08:07 PM
I actually like the hype that BC brings to the table... because it somehow keeps the stock value of the raptors' players at a tradeable level... he never makes a move that would make or break the team... he leaves room for fixability in case the unexpected happens... in the case of the JO trade... if it doesn't work, it leaves us with $20 M to spend in the next 2 years... or give us a very attractive expiring contract that can get us an expiring (for less) back and a role player if JO plays well...

That's why I think players like to play for a GM like that... A GM that keeps the fans happy and is aware of the satisfaction of his players... He may not be perfect, but he's doing a bunch of things right the way I see it...

star
07-15-2008, 08:32 PM
I agree he is a good GM... good just not GREAT

I just feel that he is NOT as good as people seem to thing he is.

star
07-15-2008, 08:34 PM
Like i said i DO NOT want to fire him or wish that he left.

I just think people should hold him MORE accountable.

If BABCOCK picked andrea - and andrea had the same year as last year he or ANY OTHER GM likely would have been run out of town.

ink
07-15-2008, 11:10 PM
Like i said i DO NOT want to fire him or wish that he left.

I just think people should hold him MORE accountable.

If BABCOCK picked andrea - and andrea had the same year as last year he or ANY OTHER GM likely would have been run out of town.

I really think he's being held accountable now. Feschuk (the Star's designated hate journalist) is officially on his case. And several others in the Toronto media have even written articles about how the honeymoon is over. So don't assume that the hype prevails.

That said, IMO he deserves respect. That's different than hype.

B2B
07-15-2008, 11:35 PM
My argument is based in the FACT that we had an NBA record 20 something losses by 3 pts or less.

Based on the FACT that our star was still a star and was just becominga SUPERSTAR.

The LAWs of averages would stand to reason that this would likely not occur again.

Ie. That is 20 last minute shots/plays ... for some reason we got unlucky and lost 20 times ... chances are we would not be that unlucky again.

My argument is based in the FACT that we had an NBA record 20 something losses by 3 pts or less.

A loss is a loss whether it be by 1 point or 20

Based on the FACT that our star was still a star and was just becominga SUPERSTAR.

None is denying Bosh's talent but if BC wasn't brought in he could've walked. Wasn't it BC presence that helped Bosh in his decision to stay?.

The LAWs of averages would stand to reason that this would likely not occur again.

Just because it stands to reason does it mean it won't occur again?.

Ie. That is 20 last minute shots/plays ... for some reason we got unlucky and lost 20 times ... chances are we would not be that unlucky again

Ever heard the saying you have to be good to be lucky & lucky to be good.

Your basing part of your argument on law of averages, wouldn't it stand to reason that you can't be unlucky for 20 games?. Is it possible that we lost close games due to other variables & not luck?.

Bob_at_york
07-16-2008, 09:28 AM
A loss is a loss whether it be by 1 point or 20
I disagree with that assessment.

Raptors27
07-16-2008, 10:13 AM
I disagree with that assessment.

Agreed. A 1 point loss could have went wither way compared to a 20 point blowout.

B2B
07-16-2008, 03:31 PM
I disagree with that assessment.

Care to explain?. because as far as I know when an apposing team scores one more point than you, it's a loss. It doesn't matter if you think it was lucky or you thought you deserved to win. If a game is that close to begin with, the other team is just as deserving of the win so as long as you're on the wrong side of the score board it's a loss.

Bob_at_york
07-16-2008, 03:45 PM
Care to explain?. because as far as I know when an apposing team scores one more point than you, it's a loss. It doesn't matter if you think it was lucky or you thought you deserved to win. If a game is that close to begin with, the other team is just as deserving of the win so as long as you're on the wrong side of the score board it's a loss.
If you get blown out 20 times then your team has many problems to address. If you are lose 20 games in the final minute and lose 20 games by 3 points or less then you are a lot closer to success than the team in the first example. The second team might be one clutch piece away. While I disagree with star's assessment that it was all "bad luck", I do see a difference in losing by 3 points and losing by 20 points.

ink
07-16-2008, 03:49 PM
If you get blown out 20 times then your team has many problems to address. If you are lose 20 games in the final minute and lose 20 games by 3 points or less then you are a lot closer to success than the team in the first example. The second team might be one clutch piece away. While I disagree with star's assessment that it was all "bad luck", I do see a difference in losing by 3 points and losing by 20 points.

I didn't read the whole thread for context, but you make a very strong point here Bob. The fact that the Raptors were that close only signifies good things about the team. And they've improved their roster dramatically (crossed fingers for healthy players) this off-season.

Bob_at_york
07-16-2008, 04:11 PM
I didn't read the whole thread for context, but you make a very strong point here Bob. The fact that the Raptors were that close only signifies good things about the team. And they've improved their roster dramatically (crossed fingers for healthy players) this off-season.

We were comparing the Mike James season to the first TJ Ford season.

B2B
07-16-2008, 04:20 PM
If you get blown out 20 times then your team has many problems to address. If you are lose 20 games in the final minute and lose 20 games by 3 points or less then you are a lot closer to success than the team in the first example. The second team might be one clutch piece away. While I disagree with star's assessment that it was all "bad luck", I do see a difference in losing by 3 points and losing by 20 points.

I agree they're is a difference in terms of competiveness but although you were competitive it's still a loss.

R you telling me a loss is not a loss if you're competitive?.

Bad teams can be competitive on any given night for many reasons & Good teams can have bad games for many reasons. There's always more variables in account but in the end when you're on the wrong side of the board it's a loss.

Variables

- Good teams don't respect bad teams, play down to them
- Bad teams find incentive in beating teams that r better
- Good teams overlook bad teams
- Bad teams play scared because they don't want to get embaressed
etc.....

carruthers32
07-16-2008, 05:00 PM
do you really think JO will have more of and impact than BRAND? ... i dont. and with philly being an up and coming team plus they added a huge piece i think are behind still.

I see The following teams as being better than us...

BOS
CLE (b/c we have NOONE that can even slow james down- he will score like kobe did on us)
DET
ORL
PHILLY (we are about even)
ATL (about even)

that puts us in a dogfight for 4-7 .... i dont see how JO alone will be the move of the summer.

ALSO in getting JO we lost TJ plus RASHO who both gave us BIG minutes. what if JOSE cannot pysically play 82 games effectively ...

as of now i dont think orlando is better than us. atl is not even with us.

Master P
07-16-2008, 05:24 PM
i agree that i loss is a loss, regardless of final score. it is true in any sport and especially basketball. for several reasons:

-good teams will play their stars less minutes against known poor teams.

-layers from good teams will take the game less seriously, which impacts mental and physical preperation for games (example, what they have for dinner the night before, how late they go out, etc).

- good teams will not seek to embarass an opposing team in their own building.

- good teams have confidence that they will make the key plays to win the game, thus stategically utilizing a minimal effort to get the win, saving the real effort for the big games.

their are obviously exceptions to this. sometimes teams just suck it up for a game and get beat by a lesser team. sometimes a lesser team gets hot. and sometimes a lesser team makes critical plays to pull out a close game. however, the main point for the good teams is that while they may give up a game or two against bad teams due to the reasons above, but more often than not they will win.

raptors wiseguy
07-16-2008, 05:36 PM
My argument is based in the FACT that we had an NBA record 20 something losses by 3 pts or less.

Based on the FACT that our star was still a star and was just becominga SUPERSTAR.

The LAWs of averages would stand to reason that this would likely not occur again.

Ie. That is 20 last minute shots/plays ... for some reason we got unlucky and lost 20 times ... chances are we would not be that unlucky again.

you dont lose the game in the last minutes...you lose the game in the entire 48 mins...good teams dont count on always winning the game in the last few mins...they win the game by outplaying the opponents throughout the entire game...it wasnt that the raps were unlucky that they lost those games...it had to do with the fact that they were just not very good at the time

star
07-16-2008, 06:02 PM
I am not debating such a thing as a good loss or bad loss.
Nor am i saying that it was ALL bad luck

I am saying that 20 losses by 3pts or less is very unusual. for ANYTEAM (hence why it was an NBA record)

From that i think it stands to reason that a team with 20 losses by 3pts or less SHOULD (if all things are kept the same) improve on that regardless.

PLUS your star was what 21-22 years old ... so his points/stats would go up thus giving you that edge to win SOME of the close ones you lost.

I dont understand why people are debating this... i think it is self explanatory and easy to comprehend.

intrepid1983
07-16-2008, 06:47 PM
Hey guys,
Im starting to get pissed when everyone talks about BC as some kind of a god send. As the BEST GM. As the saviour of the raptors.

Really what has this guy done.

WHAT HE DIDNT DO:
Draft BOSH
Draft CALDERON

(regardless what anyone says these 2 players are to be credited with most of the success of the raptors - the rest are basically interchangable parts at this point but these 2 are the franchise guys) ...and NO BC did bring them here.


The good:
Found Jamrio Moon
Aquired Delfino
Aquired Parker
Traded away some ugly contracts

The Bad:

Drafted Andrea as #1 - for a "creative genious" with the first pick would it have been possible to trade down and still get Andrea + another asset?

Let MO Pete walk - who was our best perimeter defender ever, showed his playoff value in the NJ series, and his absence was definately felt against Orlando. You dont think MO PETE would have stayed here for cheap?

Re-Signed Sam Mitchel - It was a tough spot b/c Sam just won coach of the year (which was completely bogus). BUT it was clear in the last 2 playoff years that Sam cannot COACH - yes he is a good friend to players and a good motivator but DOES NOT know the basic fundatamentals of player rotations, offensive schemes, or defensive sets. Lets not even bring up his ATO plays (b/c he doesnt have a single one)

Over-paid for kapono - self explanatory

Signed Garbo - who ditched us

He did not get a 1st round pick in the past "DEEP" draft.

He totally missed the boat on buying NO's Pick, SA's pick.

He had a mediocre offseason( b/c he combined our 2 two best assets to get just 1 piece)


QUESTIONABLE:
Traded TJ for CV3 - i know this is arguable - but i look at it like this TJ slowed calderons development. Plus if we had CV3 we would not have drafted Bargs and may have had ROY or GAY



With these above points i really do not see why everyone loves and is so confident in BC. He has not made ANY ground breaking moves or and major additions.

Babcock - got BOSH and CALDERON and they are our major pieces. Yes he screwed the VC thing. But i think he likely would have drafted ROY or GAY too.

CV3/(this years pick)
Bosh
MO pete
ROY or GAY
Calderone/Ukic (would have been over 2 years ago)

I am almost tempted to say i would be very interested to see the babcock team play.

I dunno man, i love BC, he's changed the culture of this team already. Do you seriously think Rob Babcock could have gotten JO? He's changed the culture so much that we almost expect to be good every time. Chances are, if we were losing and had as bad as a record we had before BC, then you would not even be in here posting your complaints about him due to the sadness of losing. Ie.. 60%'s students never complain about their marks, while 80%'s students always complain and want more. What more can you ask of him? You're very much sounding like a Boston fan. No complaints when they were losing, but this season, fire Doc rivers! get rid of this and that player when u start winning. I feel positive change in the culture of the raptors... like they expect great things now, i never ever felt that with babcock. All in all i would say the 2 best gm's we've ever had are Glen Grunwald, and Colangelo (so far), c'mon GM's make mistakes, ie. with bargnani. Plus they are both italian, heck if i was italian i'd probably make that mistake too with Il Mago.

star
07-16-2008, 09:26 PM
I dunno man, i love BC, he's changed the culture of this team already. Do you seriously think Rob Babcock could have gotten JO? He's changed the culture so much that we almost expect to be good every time. Chances are, if we were losing and had as bad as a record we had before BC, then you would not even be in here posting your complaints about him due to the sadness of losing. Ie.. 60%'s students never complain about their marks, while 80%'s students always complain and want more. What more can you ask of him? You're very much sounding like a Boston fan. No complaints when they were losing, but this season, fire Doc rivers! get rid of this and that player when u start winning. I feel positive change in the culture of the raptors... like they expect great things now, i never ever felt that with babcock. All in all i would say the 2 best gm's we've ever had are Glen Grunwald, and Colangelo (so far), c'mon GM's make mistakes, ie. with bargnani. Plus they are both italian, heck if i was italian i'd probably make that mistake too with Il Mago.



I was excited when we had VC and t-mac and had the playoff run against the 76ers too ...

But i AGREE that Collangelo is good, and has been good ...

MY POINT is that he isnt the BEST nor is he doing something SO OUTSTANDING ... and this was only brought forth because everyone seems to be always saying "collangelo is the man", and "all because of BC" ... and well thats not entirely true.

JO was a good move i think ... but so would have been gerald wallace + keeping some assets (ie. 1st round pick) or getting wallace + a serviceable big. (which i think another GM likely would have done)

The thing is that he took a HUGE gamble with Andrea - and now again with JO (because hes older and injury prone) - so who knows if things do not go well im sure MORE people will be calling for his head.

Pnoyballer88
07-17-2008, 05:56 AM
So let me get this straight. You guys would prefer to go back to the time the Raptors were so crappy they couldn't even make the Playoffs in the East. Maybe you guys would like Isiah Thomas to be the GM. He's done wonders for the Knicks. Honestly you guys need to relax and realize that it takes time. Rome wasn't built in a day people.

star
07-17-2008, 08:41 AM
So let me get this straight. You guys would prefer to go back to the time the Raptors were so crappy they couldn't even make the Playoffs in the East. Maybe you guys would like Isiah Thomas to be the GM. He's done wonders for the Knicks. Honestly you guys need to relax and realize that it takes time. Rome wasn't built in a day people.

i dont know WHO on this thread said we want to go back to being crappy?

Care to explain?

LittleBosh
07-17-2008, 01:17 PM
So let me get this straight. You guys would prefer to go back to the time the Raptors were so crappy they couldn't even make the Playoffs in the East. Maybe you guys would like Isiah Thomas to be the GM. He's done wonders for the Knicks. Honestly you guys need to relax and realize that it takes time. Rome wasn't built in a day people.

It's funny, but I take the early incarnation of the post-Embry's Raptors team (June 2006) over anything that's since transpired any day of the week. Rephrasing Doug Smith's classic, two years younger, two years healthier, two years shorter together and, quite possibly, two years closer to becoming a contender personnel decisions permitting. He-he.

da1nonly
07-17-2008, 01:38 PM
But i AGREE that Collangelo is good, and has been good ...

MY POINT is that he isnt the BEST nor is he doing something SO OUTSTANDING ... and this was only brought forth because everyone seems to be always saying "collangelo is the man", and "all because of BC" ... and well thats not entirely true.

JO was a good move i think ... but so would have been gerald wallace + keeping some assets (ie. 1st round pick) or getting wallace + a serviceable big. (which i think another GM likely would have done)

The thing is that he took a HUGE gamble with Andrea - and now again with JO (because hes older and injury prone) - so who knows if things do not go well im sure MORE people will be calling for his head.


i think people think he's the man becuz of his past reputation and what he's been able to do in the short time he was here... he turned a laughing stock of a franchise into a respectable destination... he changed the culture...

you say he isn't the best but then where would you rank him amongst the 30 gms? if any team in the league was forced to change their current gm to a new gm I say he makes everyone's top 3, or at least top 5 list.

Hypothetically, if you had a new team in the league... where would he rank in a list of potential candidates?
does he make your top 3 or 5 list?

JO vs Wallace... is debatable... with wallace you dont get the cap flexibility in 2010... the raptors have always been criticized for their lack of size, rebounding, blocking and inside presence since antonio davis left... the raptors have been trying to address this for a long time via trades, draft or signings (bosh, marshall, arujo, humphries, charlie v, slokar, davis again, alonzo, aaron williams, garbajosa, rasho, bargs etc)... gms coming into the raptors situation will still be stuck with the same problem and they too would try to address the raptors glaring need... BC may have struck out with bargs, but maybe JO is the answer... moon is a very poor man's gerald wallace with a smaller price tag... i'd rather deal with a knee injury (JO) than a reoccurring concussion issue (wallace)

if it doesnt go well i dont think people will be calling for his head... he'll have a great expiring contract to trade or he'll have cap room in 2010... sam mitchell will be blamed... not BC... and mitchell will get the boot...

style-206
07-17-2008, 02:08 PM
Mitchell is the problem. I may be in the minority on that one.

Kapono gets burried on the bench on a whim and Bargs looks lost at times. That is a coaching issue - he is not using players properly. He messes up the rotation, and then, when all 7 men in the rotation are exhausted, he brings in a guy who has played 5 minutes in the last month and wonders why he screws up.

Fire Mitchell, give BC his props and enjoy life without Ford.

da1nonly
07-17-2008, 02:48 PM
Mitchell is the problem. I may be in the minority on that one.

Kapono gets burried on the bench on a whim and Bargs looks lost at times. That is a coaching issue - he is not using players properly. He messes up the rotation, and then, when all 7 men in the rotation are exhausted, he brings in a guy who has played 5 minutes in the last month and wonders why he screws up.

Fire Mitchell, give BC his props and enjoy life without Ford.

i must be in the minority too cuz i agree with you... BC got handcuffed becuz smitch won coach of the year...

i don't like the way he uses his players (especially kapono didn't he have like a stretch of 2 months without a single 3pt attempt?) ... i'm not a fan of his rotation... he says that the players dictate their minutes ... yet i'll see a player like humphries go on a nice stretch of games only to get buried back on the bench... whenever a player has got the mojo going in a game smitch seems to sit them down at the worst possible time (to give them a rest)...

the only thing i like was his handling of moon... moon turned out to be a serviceable piece... and developed well under sam's system... but by no means is he a starter...

but that's just me... i'm probably in the minority...

ink
07-17-2008, 03:16 PM
i must be in the minority too cuz i agree with you... BC got handcuffed becuz smitch won coach of the year...

i don't like the way he uses his players (especially kapono didn't he have like a stretch of 2 months without a single 3pt attempt?) ... i'm not a fan of his rotation... he says that the players dictate their minutes ... yet i'll see a player like humphries go on a nice stretch of games only to get buried back on the bench... whenever a player has got the mojo going in a game smitch seems to sit them down at the worst possible time (to give them a rest)...

the only thing i like was his handling of moon... moon turned out to be a serviceable piece... and developed well under sam's system... but by no means is he a starter...

but that's just me... i'm probably in the minority...

I don't really think that's a minority opinion. Dig through the old threads on Mitchell. That's what a lot of us feel.

Bob_at_york
07-17-2008, 03:40 PM
i must be in the minority too cuz i agree with you... BC got handcuffed becuz smitch won coach of the year...
I still don't understand that thinking. I think Sam winning COY did the opposite, it gave BC an excuse for letting Sam go. He could have told everyone that "because Sam won COY, the other team (probably Charlotte) offered a lot more money than we were prepared to offer. We wish Sam the best at his new position." It would have been that easy.

LittleBosh
07-17-2008, 04:30 PM
I still don't understand that thinking. I think Sam winning COY did the opposite, it gave BC an excuse for letting Sam go. He could have told everyone that "because Sam won COY, the other team (probably Charlotte) offered a lot more money than we were prepared to offer. We wish Sam the best at his new position." It would have been that easy.

I agree, he should've been shown the door then. Contrary to a popular belief that Mitchell's been long finger-painting on Colangelo's Mona Lisa, he's now BC's boy every bit as much as Bargnani is his first pick overall and Kapono's the premium FA signing. The argument that Mitchell's handcuffing BC preventing him from doing amazing stuff simply doesn't hold water when you think about it.

Pnoyballer88
07-17-2008, 04:40 PM
i dont know WHO on this thread said we want to go back to being crappy?

Care to explain?

Just reminding you that the Raptors were a mess before Colangelo came in. I think your just being impatient.

clehmun
07-17-2008, 05:02 PM
I still don't understand that thinking. I think Sam winning COY did the opposite, it gave BC an excuse for letting Sam go. He could have told everyone that "because Sam won COY, the other team (probably Charlotte) offered a lot more money than we were prepared to offer. We wish Sam the best at his new position." It would have been that easy.

i remember when people were criticizing BC for not trading down to draft bargnani, you said, BC said he tried but couldn't, no teams bit. and you said believe him because if he lied, other GMs will come out and call him a liar.
(i'm pretty sure that was you who said it, if not, sorry).

but in a different situation, you're telling us, if BC wants to let sam go, he could have "told" (lie) people that sam got a better offer?

i don't think anyone offered sam a big contract.

and i still think because Sam won COY, we were forced to resign him.
it's like teams never trade their MVPs the very next year.

clehmun
07-17-2008, 05:13 PM
He said he tried to trade down but nobody bit. I don't see any point in BC making that up since other GMs could call him a liar.

hey bob... i found the quote.

care to explain? because i found it contradicting.

in one argument, you're telling us you believe what he said, and that BC wouldn't lie because other GMs will call him a liar.

in another argument, you're telling us if he wanted to, he can lie about other GMs making bigger offers.

so, do you want him to lie or not? :D

Raz
07-17-2008, 05:48 PM
Yes bob a hundred percent agree with everything
also so the other gms had more time i think if we wait a few more years you will see some good drafts like ukic and what BC did in pheonix

da1nonly
07-17-2008, 06:24 PM
I still don't understand that thinking. I think Sam winning COY did the opposite, it gave BC an excuse for letting Sam go. He could have told everyone that "because Sam won COY, the other team (probably Charlotte) offered a lot more money than we were prepared to offer. We wish Sam the best at his new position." It would have been that easy.

I don't understand that reasoning... I don't think anyone offered Sam that much money... if he lied and said charlotte offered more GMs, fans etc. would eventually find out what he really signed for... they don't hide the coaches salary...

another thing is that the the coaches salary doesnt count against the cap... mlse is loaded... they've overpaid on coaches before... and how can colangelo who just signed a wealthy contract himself (to be gm of the raps) then say we don't have enough money to pay the best coach in the league (COY)...

i don't think he could get away with an excuse like the other team (probably Charlotte) offered a lot more money than we were prepared to offer...

he was handcuffed becuz fans and media would have been all over him if he let the coach of the year walk away when he could have easily signed him for 3mill a year for 4 years...

Bricklayer
07-17-2008, 07:16 PM
Yes bob a hundred percent agree with everything
also so the other gms had more time i think if we wait a few more years you will see some good drafts like ukic and what BC did in pheonix

Roko was drafted by Babcock.

Bob_at_york
07-18-2008, 07:24 AM
i remember when people were criticizing BC for not trading down to draft bargnani, you said, BC said he tried but couldn't, no teams bit. and you said believe him because if he lied, other GMs will come out and call him a liar.
(i'm pretty sure that was you who said it, if not, sorry).

but in a different situation, you're telling us, if BC wants to let sam go, he could have "told" (lie) people that sam got a better offer?

i don't think anyone offered sam a big contract.
I thought Charlotte (the example I used) was offering him a big contract. I remember rumours of that. So no, I didn't want BC to lie about the coaching thing. I wanted him to set a price for Sam (for example 2 mil per) and when Charlotte offers him more than BC says he offered him a fair contract but another team overpaid for Sam because of the COY award. None of that is lying unless BC actually thinks Sam is worth a 4 mil per contract (I wasn't convinced that BC thought that).

Bob_at_york
07-18-2008, 07:31 AM
I don't understand that reasoning... I don't think anyone offered Sam that much money... if he lied and said charlotte offered more GMs, fans etc. would eventually find out what he really signed for... they don't hide the coaches salary......
as I just said, I remember hearing that Charlotte was offering a huge contract but I could be wrong.

another thing is that the the coaches salary doesnt count against the cap... mlse is loaded... they've overpaid on coaches before... and how can colangelo who just signed a wealthy contract himself (to be gm of the raps) then say we don't have enough money to pay the best coach in the league (COY)...
I know that the coaches salary doesn't count against the cap but BC has shown a habit of being very thrifty (which annoys me to no end).


he was handcuffed becuz fans and media would have been all over him if he let the coach of the year walk away when he could have easily signed him for 3mill a year for 4 years...
Sure they would have been all over him up until the new coach actually started coaching and they liked the results.

da1nonly
07-18-2008, 08:50 AM
Sure they would have been all over him up until the new coach actually started coaching and they liked the results.

too many variables... who knows what a new coach would've done? it could have been amazing and the raps could've been challenging boston in conference finals... or it could've been even worse and the raptors might have just missed the playoffs...

I was just stating that BC's hands were handcuffed.... and you said...

I still don't understand that thinking. I think Sam winning COY did the opposite, it gave BC an excuse for letting Sam go. He could have told everyone that "because Sam won COY, the other team (probably Charlotte) offered a lot more money than we were prepared to offer. We wish Sam the best at his new position." It would have been that easy.

How many GMs would be willing to go under the media and public scrutiny of letting an up and coming coach, that just won COY... walk away at a measly $3million a year? None.

I was just showing you the thinking behind why it wasn't that easy to let him go since you didn't understand it. but I still don't understand the view point of how it would've been so easy to let Smitch go...

I wish they did let him go then ... maybe BC's plan was to keep sam all along.... that way if any of the moves he made didn't pan out he'd have a perfect scapegoat in a coach that wasn't his guy but he was obligated to hire... then he can bring aboard his guy...

Bob_at_york
07-18-2008, 10:34 AM
too many variables... who knows what a new coach would've done? it could have been amazing and the raps could've been challenging boston in conference finals... or it could've been even worse and the raptors might have just missed the playoffs...
Sam's in game stuff the last two years... I am not sure if he has shown any improvement at all. So I honestly think that if BC had another coach in mind, that coach would have been better.


How many GMs would be willing to go under the media and public scrutiny of letting an up and coming coach, that just won COY... walk away at a measly $3million a year? None.
The good GMs wouldn't care.

da1nonly
07-18-2008, 05:11 PM
The good GMs wouldn't care.

hmmmm.... interesting... are you saying BC is not a good GM then?

I believe that good GMs would think that it's a no brainer ... a young coach that just won COY... getting someone of that calibre for only $3million a year is a steal...

Bob_at_york
07-18-2008, 08:39 PM
hmmmm.... interesting... are you saying BC is not a good GM then?

I actually didn't get to finish that thought because I had to give up the computer. But yes, I believe that good GMs wouldn't worry about the criticism they are going to get from the fans and the media. They just plain make the moves they think are right.


I believe that good GMs would think that it's a no brainer ... a young coach that just won COY... getting someone of that calibre for only $3million a year is a steal
But Mitchell didn't deserve COY of the year and BC knows that (if I can see that then BC must be able to see it). So no, it wasn't a no-brainer. I really am not sure why things went down the way they did. But I am sure BC had his reasons.

da1nonly
07-18-2008, 09:44 PM
I actually didn't get to finish that thought because I had to give up the computer. But yes, I believe that good GMs wouldn't worry about the criticism they are going to get from the fans and the media. They just plain make the moves they think are right.


But Mitchell didn't deserve COY of the year and BC knows that (if I can see that then BC must be able to see it). So no, it wasn't a no-brainer. I really am not sure why things went down the way they did. But I am sure BC had his reasons.

some times the most obvious answers are staring at you in the face... i think you're digging way to deeply into this...

you say he's a good gm... you say good gms wouldn't succumb to pressure and scrutiny... you say good gms just make the right moves.... yet you say he knew sam didnt deserve COY.... you even say winning COY should've made it even easier for him to let it go... but you don't know why it went down the way it did...

maybe it's just as simple as one of those situations that BC had to do what was dictated by a coach that had just won the COY...

the only other thing that i could think of is that maybe higher management played a part in this decision... maybe he owed something to wayne embry (seeing that wayne and sam are somewhat close)??? maybe he respects wayne's opinions and wayne had weighed in on this

Bob_at_york
07-18-2008, 11:05 PM
some times the most obvious answers are staring at you in the face... i think you're digging way to deeply into this...

you say he's a good gm... you say good gms wouldn't succumb to pressure and scrutiny... you say good gms just make the right moves.... yet you say he knew sam didnt deserve COY.... you even say winning COY should've made it even easier for him to let it go... but you don't know why it went down the way it did...

maybe it's just as simple as one of those situations that BC had to do what was dictated by a coach that had just won the COY...

the only other thing that i could think of is that maybe higher management played a part in this decision... maybe he owed something to wayne embry (seeing that wayne and sam are somewhat close)??? maybe he respects wayne's opinions and wayne had weighed in on this

Maybe I am. But this is the way I see it. I believe that BC is a smart man and he can see that Mitchell didn't deserve COY. Maybe he saw upside that I didn't, maybe he was pressured by higher-ups, maybe he couldn't get any of his other coaching options maybe it was a combination of all of that. But if media pressure was a reason then BC has really failed me and I think all the fans. But I don't think he is the type to give in to that kind of pressure because if he was then he would be going over the luxury tax right now or at least filling his roster all the way to 15.

ink
07-18-2008, 11:14 PM
One other angle about Colangelo is that he's got a flexible mind. He tries to work with what he has, and I see him working hard to collaborate with Smitch even though he wasn't his choice. That's part of the reason why I respect him.

Raz
07-19-2008, 10:09 AM
Roko was drafted by Babcock.

I kno that im saying that you'll see some quality pick ups in the later rounds like ukic also does anyone kno how well he did in the canada croatia game yesterday i couldn't watch it

clehmun
07-19-2008, 12:39 PM
One other angle about Colangelo is that he's got a flexible mind. He tries to work with what he has, and I see him working hard to collaborate with Smitch even though he wasn't his choice. That's part of the reason why I respect him.

i think the best reason why colangelo signed sam was because there weren't any choice out there at the time that could put us over the top.

there might have been some improvements, but not ones that he is comfortable with for long term where he believes the coach is good enough to bring us to championship level.

the last thing players want would be to have different coaches every 2 years.

so instead of firing sam, then hiring a new coach, then firing the new coach again when we find the "perfect" coach... he saved a step.

colangelo killed like 5 birds with that one stone.

argo
07-19-2008, 02:22 PM
rick carlisle would have been really nice :)

ink
07-19-2008, 02:39 PM
i think the best reason why colangelo signed sam was because there weren't any choice out there at the time that could put us over the top.

there might have been some improvements, but not ones that he is comfortable with for long term where he believes the coach is good enough to bring us to championship level.

the last thing players want would be to have different coaches every 2 years.

so instead of firing sam, then hiring a new coach, then firing the new coach again when we find the "perfect" coach... he saved a step.

colangelo killed like 5 birds with that one stone.

I think you nailed it.

_Sn1P3r_
07-19-2008, 04:43 PM
i think the best reason why colangelo signed sam was because there weren't any choice out there at the time that could put us over the top.

there might have been some improvements, but not ones that he is comfortable with for long term where he believes the coach is good enough to bring us to championship level.

the last thing players want would be to have different coaches every 2 years.

so instead of firing sam, then hiring a new coach, then firing the new coach again when we find the "perfect" coach... he saved a step.

colangelo killed like 5 birds with that one stone.

Well said. I agree with you completely.

AFlagRules
07-20-2008, 10:33 PM
Hes the best one Toronto's ever had. So who cares?

ink
07-21-2008, 12:11 AM
Hes the best one Toronto's ever had. So who cares?

I think it's a legit thread idea. Yes, he's the best, but he's not perfect, so it's a good thing for posters to discuss the pros and cons of his tenure as GM here.

pebloemer
07-21-2008, 09:20 AM
At the time of the Mitchell signing there were a few things said and these were my thoughts on the situation.

After the playoffs, when asked if the first round exit to Jersey changed his opinion of Mitchell, Colangelo said something to the extent of "I think the same thing of him as I have throughout the season."

So this begs the question for me, what could BC think of Sam throughout the season.

Sam's accomplishments that season: Took a roster with nine new names and helped them gel. Got his star player to continue to challenge himself and embrace a more leadership roles. Stressed hustle, defense, rebounding and never quitting. Motivated players to play as hard as possible.

Some of his deficits: Calling plays out of his timeouts. Substitutions. Young, still makes many mistakes. (to name a few)

BC spoke about a 5 year plan for the Raptors (which since has probably been changed slightly). If he has a coach who is helping his players improve, making people accountable, helping players gel, why would he sign a more proven coach at the beginning of his five year plan? Why not wait, see how Sam does, let him continue to develop as a coach, and develop his players and if he doesn't work out, get the coach you want closer to the end of the five-year plan? This gives a large window where the coach he wants could become available.

Those were my thoughts at the time.

LittleBosh
07-21-2008, 12:31 PM
I think it's a legit thread idea. Yes, he's the best, but he's not perfect, so it's a good thing for posters to discuss the pros and cons of his tenure as GM here.

If I were to rank the Raps GMs, Glen Grunwald (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Grunwald) would be right on top of my list thanks to assembling the one and only Raptors team that won a playoff series. A superior talent evaluator, he acquired Vince Carter and drafted Chris Bosh if my memory serves me well.
Wayne Embry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Embry) would be a close second simply because he managed to move Rose out of town within such a short tenure as an interim GM.
Bryan Colangelo for now hangs with the rest of the pack, albeit he can still become a brilliant Raptors GM, just like Bargnani can still develop into a star player in this league.

ink
07-21-2008, 01:50 PM
If I were to rank the Raps GMs, Glen Grunwald (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Grunwald) would be right on top of my list thanks to assembling the one and only Raptors team that won a playoff series. A superior talent evaluator, he acquired Vince Carter and drafted Chris Bosh if my memory serves me well.
Wayne Embry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Embry) would be a close second simply because he managed to move Rose out of town within such a short tenure as an interim GM.
Bryan Colangelo for now hangs with the rest of the pack, albeit he can still become a brilliant Raptors GM, just like Bargnani can still develop into a star player in this league.

That's a pretty extreme position to take. Yes, Grunwald swung the deal with GSW for Carter in his first draft but he didn't do much again until 2003 when he picked high in an incredibly deep draft for Bosh. I know he picked up MoPete, but I don't see him as a really great player. Grunwald also swung the deal for Davis, and took the team to the playoffs, but seriously, I don't think the team ever had the potential to go any farther than they did. They were OK. Take a look at his draft history:


2003
Chris Bosh - Georgia Tech --- (1st round, 4th overall)
Remon Van de Hare - Netherlands --- (2nd round, 52nd overall)

2002
Kareem Rush* - Missouri --- (1st round, 20th overall)

*Rush was traded on draft night along with Tracy Murray to the L.A. Lakers for the draft rights to Chris Jefferies (27th pick) and G Lindsey Hunter.

2001
Michael Bradley - Villanova --- (1st round, 17th overall)

2000
Morris Peterson - Michigan State --- (1st round, 21st overall)
DeeAndre Hulett - Las Vegas, IBL --- (2nd round, 46th overall)

1999
Jonathan Bender - Picayune HS --- (1st round, 5th overall)*
Aleksandar Radojevic - Barton County CC --- (1st round, 12th overall)

* Bender was traded to the Indiana Pacers for F/C Antonio Davis.

1998
Antawn Jamison - North Carolina --- (1st round, 4th overall)*
Tyson Wheeler - Rhode Island --- (2nd round, 47th overall)

*Jamison was traded on draft night to Golden State for the draft rights to Vince Carter (5th pick) and cash.

Source: nba.com (http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/draft_history.html)

By comparison, I think Colangelo has higher aspirations and will go much farther with this team. I'm basing a lot of that on his past success and the fact that I have more faith in BC's potential and the current roster's potential. I think he is very responsive to the developing needs of the team, and even if another GM did draft his best players, he has shown he is smart enough to know that they are his best players. He has made Calderon his PG and he has provided Bosh with a big that will relieve CB4 of all the pounding he's had to endure in his career. His biggest "mistake" to date has been Bargnani, and the jury is still out on him. That's been well-discussed. As many have said here, if AB had developed quickly into a front-line player, there would be no doubt that we'd be having different conversations about BC. Finally, the fact that Colangelo was smart enough to get an elite big man in here to take pressure off Andrea shows he really knows how to be proactive about problems. I was very critical of him during the season, but the two things I was most critical of he has addressed - trading away Ford and getting a legitimate low post player. And he did it in the same move. Not bad. :clap: He has done a lot with the franchise, even if the results aren't in yet. He's taken the team to the playoffs two years running, and things are looking hopeful for a third and better trip to the post-season this year.

travesy3
07-21-2008, 06:46 PM
Not gonna bother reading through the pages of squabbling, so here is my 2 cents.

Brian is a big name, he garners respect around the league unlike our previous GM's. Brian has full confidence from not only the organization, but almost the entire fan base of the Raptors. It took him 8 years or so to make Phoenix dominant to expect anything better than that is unfair.

And it is still far too early to consider Bargs a bust, sure he has a LONG way to go to become a better player, and he will likely never be the best player in this class. But if he can become the player many see his potential making him, paired with Bosh in the future can be deadly. Many players have a tendancy to break out in year 3 so this is make or break for Bargs(at least in my books)

The year we had cap, he got Parker/Garbo at bargain prices. Garbo when healthy was a key for us. If you seriously think the Raptors could attract a big name via FA you are sadly mistaken. IMO he has done as good a job as most GM's would have. And look at any mock, tons of them had Andrea going #1 as the draft lotto approached, even before the Raps got #1.

Brian is not the best GM in the league, but the respect he has around the league is enough to have hope and faith that he will one day make this team a contender as he did in Phoenix.(Then leave us like he did Phoenix :P )

ink
07-21-2008, 06:52 PM
Not gonna bother reading through the pages of squabbling, so here is my 2 cents.

Brian is a big name, he garners respect around the league unlike our previous GM's. Brian has full confidence from not only the organization, but almost the entire fan base of the Raptors. It took him 8 years or so to make Phoenix dominant to expect anything better than that is unfair.

And it is still far too early to consider Bargs a bust, sure he has a LONG way to go to become a better player, and he will likely never be the best player in this class. But if he can become the player many see his potential making him, paired with Bosh in the future can be deadly. Many players have a tendancy to break out in year 3 so this is make or break for Bargs(at least in my books)

The year we had cap, he got Parker/Garbo at bargain prices. Garbo when healthy was a key for us. If you seriously think the Raptors could attract a big name via FA you are sadly mistaken. IMO he has done as good a job as most GM's would have. And look at any mock, tons of them had Andrea going #1 as the draft lotto approached, even before the Raps got #1.

Brian is not the best GM in the league, but the respect he has around the league is enough to have hope and faith that he will one day make this team a contender as he did in Phoenix.(Then leave us like he did Phoenix :P )

Welcome to PSD. And btw, I wouldn't call this thread squabbling. It's a forum and for the most part, the thread is completely respectful. There are some good opinions in here.