PDA

View Full Version : PSD's Official #3 Player of All Time



"WhatIf"
07-11-2008, 06:35 PM
Voting for #2 has concluded and PSD's Official #2 Player of all time is....

Wilt Chamberlain

http://www.nba.com/media/wilt_300_070125.jpg

30.1 PPG | 22.9 RPG | 4.4 AST | .540% FG |

Achievements
4 Time MVP
13 Time All-Star
1 Time Finals MVP
'60 Rookie Of The Year
'60 All Star Game MVP
8 time All-NBA First Teamer
2 time All-NBA Second Teamer
2 time All-Devensive First Teamer
Led the league in scoring 7 times
Led the league in rebounding 11 times
All Time rebound leader
Led the league in assists once
Led the league in PER 8 times

Wilt Chamberlain = 48 votes
Magic Johnson = 23 votes
Kobe Bryant = 16 votes
Bill Russell = 14 votes
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar = 12 votes
Shaquille O'Neal = 6 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 4 votes
Larry Bird = 3 votes
Oscar Robertson = 3 votes
Tim Duncan = 2 votes

link (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243543)

The list:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain

Voting will now begin for the third best player of all time....

JordansBulls
07-11-2008, 06:51 PM
The first two went as expected and the next guy who gets in the GOAT argument just as much is Kareem.

Kareem = 6 MVP's, 2 League MVP's, all time leader in points, 2nd all time in playoff points and most NBA Teams.

A player that played both ends of the court well as well.

AllTheWay
07-11-2008, 06:53 PM
I'll Have to say Kareem as well

Nice Job taking Kobe off, he belongs on there around the 8-12 spot, not top 5(yet)

SpeeMN
07-11-2008, 06:59 PM
Magic because he is magic

Iodine
07-11-2008, 07:01 PM
Kareem

JIDsanity
07-11-2008, 07:09 PM
this one is hard. You got Kareem, Magic, and the Big O. I went with Magic, simply because he is the guy I would chose out of the three if I started a team.

GregOden#1
07-11-2008, 07:12 PM
Kobe does not belong in the 8-12 argument.

Edit: I really dont care how this poll goes but Jerry West should've been on the first poll if Shaq, Hakeem and Oscar were there. Most people put him over Oscar, who most put over Shaq and Hakeem, so its pretty dumb having West not there.

JIDsanity
07-11-2008, 07:40 PM
Kobe does not belong in the 8-12 argument.

Edit: I really dont care how this poll goes but Jerry West should've been on the first poll if Shaq, Hakeem and Oscar were there. Most people put him over Oscar, who most put over Shaq and Hakeem, so its pretty dumb having West not there.
True

JIDsanity
07-11-2008, 07:40 PM
Jerry can't go any lower than top 5.

"WhatIf"
07-11-2008, 07:43 PM
Jerry West has been edited in, I'd put JW at around #12 though.

JordansBulls
07-11-2008, 07:47 PM
Jerry can't go any lower than top 5.

MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic is 5 there. We does he beat out?

Lakersfan2483
07-11-2008, 08:16 PM
Kareem is no. 3, All-time leading scorer, 6 mvps, 6 titles, Clutch

Lakersfan2483
07-11-2008, 08:19 PM
Jerry can't go any lower than top 5.

J. West is not a top 5 player.

MJ
Magic
Kareem
Shaq
Russell

Lakersfan2483
07-11-2008, 08:20 PM
Kobe does not belong in the 8-12 argument.

Edit: I really dont care how this poll goes but Jerry West should've been on the first poll if Shaq, Hakeem and Oscar were there. Most people put him over Oscar, who most put over Shaq and Hakeem, so its pretty dumb having West not there.


Kobe is no. 12 on the list.

LA_cabals
07-11-2008, 08:55 PM
I voted for Magic Johnson

...but what kinda polling is this if you're going to edit when to include/exclude players on the list. You're basically pre-determining their ranking which isn't fair. I know that there are a lot of homers out there, but this shouldn't be called "PSD's Official" players rankings without a consistent list of players.

PhillyLuver
07-11-2008, 08:55 PM
Toughie between Magic, Russell and KAJ..

but have to go with Kareem

GregOden#1
07-11-2008, 09:01 PM
Kobe is no. 12 on the list.

Take the 10 players we already have, and add Jerry West and Julius Erving. The guys who usually take up the 10-12 spots are Hakeem, Duncan and Erving with guys like DRob and the Malone's. Kobe isn't ahead of those guys, he's in the 17-20 range with the Garnett's and the Barkley's. If you disagree, just look at the resume's of some of these guys, Erving has 8 MVP's (finals, all-star and regular season), Moses has 3 and both were a part of arguably the greatest team of all time. Hakeem lead two teams to the title, one of which he had to go through a 60 win team every round. Duncan has 4 championships and lead an incredibly weak 2003 Spurs team to the title.

Ramon Nivar
07-11-2008, 09:04 PM
I thought Kareem was #2, so obviously I'm going to pick him now.. If Kareem went #2 like I thought Wilt would go here on my list.

"WhatIf"
07-11-2008, 09:20 PM
...but what kinda polling is this if you're going to edit when to include/exclude players on the list. You're basically pre-determining their ranking which isn't fair. I know that there are a lot of homers out there, but this shouldn't be called "PSD's Official" players rankings without a consistent list of players.
You can vote for whoever you want. Hence the "Other (Explain Your Vote)" choice. The poll is just a list of players to consider.

JIDsanity
07-11-2008, 09:26 PM
J. West is not a top 5 player.

MJ
Magic
Kareem
Shaq
Russell

Shaq?

Lincoln Logs
07-11-2008, 09:32 PM
Why am I the only one voting for Russell?!

But Kareem deserves it as well.

ee
07-11-2008, 10:18 PM
Magic

Lakersfan2483
07-11-2008, 10:56 PM
[QUOTE=GregOden#1;5827231]Take the 10 players we already have, and add Jerry West and Julius Erving. The guys who usually take up the 10-12 spots are Hakeem, Duncan and Erving with guys like DRob and the Malone's. Kobe isn't ahead of those guys, he's in the 17-20 range with the Garnett's and the Barkley's. If you disagree, just look at the resume's of some of these guys, Erving has 8 MVP's (finals, all-star and regular season), Moses has 3 and both were a part of arguably the greatest team of all time. Hakeem lead two teams to the title, one of which he had to go through a 60 win team every round. Duncan has 4 championships and lead an incredibly weak 2003 Spurs team to the title.[/QUOTE

No, Kobe is not in the 17-20 range in terms of talent and resume, look it up. I have Kobe at no. 12 all time. Dr. J was not better than Kobe, Kobe was a far better defender, and scorer, look that up. Dr. J didn't win 8 MVPs, what are you talking about? As far as Kobe is concerned, he is not in my top ten yet but if he wins 2 more titles he will be.

My top 20 players

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Russell
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. Oscar
11. M. Malone
12. Kobe
13. J. West
14. K. malone
15. Charles Barkley
16. Dr. J
17. Elgin Baylor
18. Isaiah
19. David Robinson
20. Patrick Ewing

Basketball Reference.com will give you all the info. you need to know in terms of career stats, achievements, etc...

Lakersfan2483
07-11-2008, 11:00 PM
Shaq?

Shaq is top 5, Check his numbers in the playoffs and the finals, only MJ had those type of numbers ever. Shaq has 3 Finals MVPS, 4 titles, avg. 30 plus in the Finals and double digit rebounds in the playoffs and finals. His dominance during the playoffs is indicative of him being in the top 5 scoring all time in playoff history!!!

Lakersfan2483
07-11-2008, 11:09 PM
Historically, teams don't win with the Shooting Guard being the best player, MJ, West, and Kobe are the 3 main shooting guards to lead their teams to the finals. MJ, Kobe, and Iverson are the only 3 shooting guards to win an MVP. What Kobe has done has been impressive ditto for Iverson. The league is dominated by big men and point guards historically

AllTheWay
07-11-2008, 11:18 PM
Take the 10 players we already have, and add Jerry West and Julius Erving. The guys who usually take up the 10-12 spots are Hakeem, Duncan and Erving with guys like DRob and the Malone's. Kobe isn't ahead of those guys, he's in the 17-20 range with the Garnett's and the Barkley's. If you disagree, just look at the resume's of some of these guys, Erving has 8 MVP's (finals, all-star and regular season), Moses has 3 and both were a part of arguably the greatest team of all time. Hakeem lead two teams to the title, one of which he had to go through a 60 win team every round. Duncan has 4 championships and lead an incredibly weak 2003 Spurs team to the title.

Erving is not better than Kobe Bryant, I have Kobe at 13, but Julius Erving is not ahead of him.

avsman05
07-11-2008, 11:25 PM
I chose Bill Russell lead his team to a lot of championships.

JordansBulls
07-11-2008, 11:26 PM
Erving is not better than Kobe Bryant, I have Kobe at 13, but Julius Erving is not ahead of him.

It really depends on how much you factor in the ABA into Julius Erving's career.

BADizzleBoY
07-11-2008, 11:27 PM
kareem is legendary, he NEEDS to be number 3.

AllTheWay
07-11-2008, 11:29 PM
Take the 10 players we already have, and add Jerry West and Julius Erving. The guys who usually take up the 10-12 spots are Hakeem, Duncan and Erving with guys like DRob and the Malone's. Kobe isn't ahead of those guys, he's in the 17-20 range with the Garnett's and the Barkley's. If you disagree, just look at the resume's of some of these guys, Erving has 8 MVP's (finals, all-star and regular season), Moses has 3 and both were a part of arguably the greatest team of all time. Hakeem lead two teams to the title, one of which he had to go through a 60 win team every round. Duncan has 4 championships and lead an incredibly weak 2003 Spurs team to the title.

I will give you my list, top 20

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Oscar
10. The Dream
11. Moses
12. Karl
13. Bryant
14. West
15. Erving
16. The Admiral
17. Bob P.
18. KG(he got the championship)
19. Charles
20. Mikan(gotta give him the nod)

AllTheWay
07-11-2008, 11:30 PM
It really depends on how much you factor in the ABA into Julius Erving's career.

True, but skillwise, I don't think Erving is there. The ABA was no joke, great players like Erving, Barry, Gilmore, etc. played there. But I still don't think Erving is a better player than Bryant

Lakersfan2483
07-11-2008, 11:32 PM
I will give you my list, top 20

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Oscar
10. The Dream
11. Moses
12. Karl
13. Bryant
14. West
15. Erving
16. The Admiral
17. Bob P.
18. KG(he got the championship)
19. Charles
20. Mikan(gotta give him the nod)

I agree, Dr. J is not better than Kobe, people get blinded by Dr. J's athleticism, his shooting was not that great, his defense was not that solid as well, from a pure basketball skill perspective Kobe is top 5 all time, but Kobe lacks the intangibles that the top ten greats had.

Lakersfan2483
07-11-2008, 11:35 PM
Kobe will be in the top ten in a few more years.

lakers4sho
07-11-2008, 11:51 PM
Magic. His versatility, his creativeness is like no other. I'm surprised he didn't win 2nd.

BTownTeamsRKing
07-12-2008, 12:04 AM
Bill Russell

11 Championships. began a dynasty.

no other pro is near him in terms of making sure his team is the champs no matter wat stands in the way.

imo hes #1.

GregOden#1
07-12-2008, 12:51 AM
No, Kobe is not in the 17-20 range in terms of talent and resume, look it up. I have Kobe at no. 12 all time. Dr. J was not better than Kobe, Kobe was a far better defender, and scorer, look that up. Dr. J didn't win 8 MVPs, what are you talking about? As far as Kobe is concerned, he is not in my top ten yet but if he wins 2 more titles he will be.

I suggest you look it up, seriously. Dr. J has 8 MVPs, look that up too.


My top 20 players

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Russell
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. Oscar
11. M. Malone
12. Kobe
13. J. West
14. K. malone
15. Charles Barkley
16. Dr. J
17. Elgin Baylor
18. Isaiah
19. David Robinson
20. Patrick Ewing

Shaq at 4? Wilt at 6? Bird at 7? West at 13? Your list is questionable at best, I suggest you actually do the research before you call me out.


I agree, Dr. J is not better than Kobe, people get blinded by Dr. J's athleticism, his shooting was not that great, his defense was not that solid as well, from a pure basketball skill perspective Kobe is top 5 all time, but Kobe lacks the intangibles that the top ten greats had.

...

Yes, basketball-reference is a good tool, but when you've never actually watched the players play it puts into question your analysis, and I can tell you've never watched J play because I've NEVER heard of anyone call Erving's shooting "not that great" and his defense "not that solid".

Mane
07-12-2008, 12:53 AM
Well, assuming Mike James is 1, and Rondo is 2. 3 would have to be Deshawn Stevenson.

THE MTL
07-12-2008, 03:02 AM
Julius Erving is better than Kobe. period. end.

And I vote for Oscar Robertson. Big O would dominate the league today. His combination and verastility would be un-rivaled in todays age.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 03:17 AM
I suggest you look it up, seriously. Dr. J has 8 MVPs, look that up too.



Shaq at 4? Wilt at 6? Bird at 7? West at 13? Your list is questionable at best, I suggest you actually do the research before you call me out.



...

Yes, basketball-reference is a good tool, but when you've never actually watched the players play it puts into question your analysis, and I can tell you've never watched J play because I've NEVER heard of anyone call Erving's shooting "not that great" and his defense "not that solid".

I called you out, because you don't back up any of your statements, I am given you reasons why my list is the way it is. I have watched the players play, I was suggesting you use basketball reference as a tool to look up your so-called list and get the facts straight. You said Dr. J has 8 MVPs, well your listing some of the all-star games in which he won an mvp as a part of your argument. Erving was not none for his defense, how many all defensive teams was he on? Also, most of his shots were taken free throw line and below and No he was not a great shooter, he was a prolific scorer, there's a difference, so before you get on here challenging my list, do your homework. You can call me on any player I put at my spot and I have valid reasons for putting each guy where I put him.

OaklandsFinest
07-12-2008, 03:29 AM
I think its gotta be Bill Russell if he's not number 2. Come one 11 Championships!!!!! 11 in 13 years?!?!?! I put it like this Mike is the best PLAYER ever, Bill Russell is the best CHAMPION ever.

J-Relo
07-12-2008, 03:33 AM
Bill Russell should be third if not higher...

AllTheWay
07-12-2008, 03:38 AM
Julius Erving is better than Kobe. period. end.

And I vote for Oscar Robertson. Big O would dominate the league today. His combination and verastility would be un-rivaled in todays age.

No, hes not. Period

OaklandsFinest
07-12-2008, 03:46 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Shaquille O'neal
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlin
6. Oscar Robinson
7. Larry Bird
8. Kareem Abdul Jabar
9. Dr. Julius Erving
10. Pistol Pete Maravich
11. Hakeem Olajuwaon
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. George Girvan
15. Isiah Thomas

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 03:52 AM
I think its gotta be Bill Russell if he's not number 2. Come one 11 Championships!!!!! 11 in 13 years?!?!?! I put it like this Mike is the best PLAYER ever, Bill Russell is the best CHAMPION ever.

I respect Bill Russell but he's not winning 11 titles in this era, the game has evolved, the talent is better, etc... If I am not mistaken their were only 8 teams back then, come on now, let's be realistic.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 03:55 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Shaquille O'neal
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlin
6. Oscar Robinson
7. Larry Bird
8. Kareem Abdul Jabar
9. Dr. Julius Erving
10. Pistol Pete Maravich
11. Hakeem Olajuwaon
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. George Girvan
15. Isiah Thomas

Kareem is no. 8? Where is duncan and Kobe? Where is Karl Malone, Barkley? That list is terrible. I have never heard of anyone ranking George Gervin and Pistol Pete so high, give me a break, what did they do in terms of carrying a team and winning rings?

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 03:58 AM
Julius Erving is better than Kobe. period. end.

And I vote for Oscar Robertson. Big O would dominate the league today. His combination and verastility would be un-rivaled in todays age.

No he is not, period. end.

GregOden#1
07-12-2008, 04:01 AM
I called you out, because you don't back up any of your statements, I am given you reasons why my list is the way it is. I have watched the players play, I was suggesting you use basketball reference as a tool to look up your so-called list and get the facts straight. You said Dr. J has 8 MVPs, well your listing some of the all-star games in which he won an mvp as a part of your argument.

I clearly said all-star MVP's were included, sorry you cant read.


Erving was not none for his defense, how many all defensive teams was he on?

He was all-NBA first one year. Considering he was going up against guys like Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson and Sydney Moncrief, easily the greatest defensive forward line of all-time, even if you discount Dennis, and its very easy to see why J would be left off the D teams for all but one year.


Also, most of his shots were taken free throw line and below and No he was not a great shooter, he was a prolific scorer, there's a difference,

Wrong. Dr. J had one of the nicest mid-range games in the entire league, it was his bread and butter. Yeah maybe if you only watch highlight reels and not his actual game you might have assumed he was just a flashy dunker, but he wasn't. You talk about me doing my homework well then I highly suggest you do yours, because my list is the result of thousands of hours of arguing back and forth between many different fanbases, including Laker fans. My list isn't perfect, no list is by definition, but you must follow a parameter in order to be taken seriously as an unbiased participant in a discussion. The parameters never change, the exception when an active player enters into a new parameter. You can place a player anyway you want in a parameter, but not outside of it. For instance, there are 6 players that are clearly above everyone else, bar none, they are without question the top 6 players of all-time. They are Wilt, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell. How you place them depends on your criteria. If you believe statistics are the most important Wilt goes #1, if you want championships Russell goes #1, etc. There are further parameters, under no circumstance and criteria changing can Magic go above Kareem or Jordan. Actually, I think thats the only inner parameter I can think of...Bird actually can go ahead of Jordan/Kareem if you REALLY REALLY like peak value for some reason. It may seem rigid, but my estimation is 95% of all those thousands of man hours arguing I was talking about earlier were spent arguing about these 6 players and those are the conclusions I and most others have reached.

I'l make a post either tomorrow or the next day telling everyone here how much they're underrating Jerry West because that's really beginning to bug me.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:09 AM
Jerry West went to the finals 9 times and brought home 1 title, case closed about him being in the top 5 or ten. If you look at the talent he played with he should have had more than 1 title, no excuses for that, period. I have studied the game and I know what I am talking about and just because I am a laker fan, does not make me biased, I give credit where credit is do. Dr. J had a nice midrange game bro, but Kobe, and Michael could take you inside and outside, don't tell me Dr. J was a better shooter or scorer than Kobe Bryant. Dr. J didn't have the range of a Kobe Bryant or MJ.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:20 AM
My standard for judging rankings is based on the how well a player perfomed during their era, how many titles did they win as the main guy, and the level of competition they faced during their years in the NBA, also stats and awards factor in as well. Also, it's based on whether or not the particular player had the ability to get the most out of his teammates and take over games down the stretch, i.e. Michael Jordan's reasoning for being the greatest all time. MJ was outstanding during the 80's and when he finally got a good team around him he won his 6 titles. In my opinion, the 80's was the toughest level of competition in NBA history.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:26 AM
I clearly said all-star MVP's were included, sorry you cant read.



He was all-NBA first one year. Considering he was going up against guys like Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson and Sydney Moncrief, easily the greatest defensive forward line of all-time, even if you discount Dennis, and its very easy to see why J would be left off the D teams for all but one year.



Wrong. Dr. J had one of the nicest mid-range games in the entire league, it was his bread and butter. Yeah maybe if you only watch highlight reels and not his actual game you might have assumed he was just a flashy dunker, but he wasn't. You talk about me doing my homework well then I highly suggest you do yours, because my list is the result of thousands of hours of arguing back and forth between many different fanbases, including Laker fans. My list isn't perfect, no list is by definition, but you must follow a parameter in order to be taken seriously as an unbiased participant in a discussion. The parameters never change, the exception when an active player enters into a new parameter. You can place a player anyway you want in a parameter, but not outside of it. For instance, there are 6 players that are clearly above everyone else, bar none, they are without question the top 6 players of all-time. They are Wilt, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell. How you place them depends on your criteria. If you believe statistics are the most important Wilt goes #1, if you want championships Russell goes #1, etc. There are further parameters, under no circumstance and criteria changing can Magic go above Kareem or Jordan. Actually, I think thats the only inner parameter I can think of...Bird actually can go ahead of Jordan/Kareem if you REALLY REALLY like peak value for some reason. It may seem rigid, but my estimation is 95% of all those thousands of man hours arguing I was talking about earlier were spent arguing about these 6 players and those are the conclusions I and most others have reached.

I'l make a post either tomorrow or the next day telling everyone here how much they're underrating Jerry West because that's really beginning to bug me.

Magic can't ever go over Kareem, what? Ask Larry Bird that question. Magic was the 2nd greatest player in NBA history. The man could play any position on the court and excel. He led the lakers to 5 titles in the hardest era of basketball ever, he won 3 mvps and led the league in assists and triple doubles several years in a row. Magic was the man that changed the Laker franchise around. Kareem was huge for La, but Earvin "Magic" Johnson was the MAN on that team, ask Larry Bird who was the best.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:41 AM
If we based the argument on titles we would have to go with:
Russell, MJ, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Kobe, Isaiah, Hakeem, M. Malone, Dr. J, because all of those guys were great and have the most titles.

Stats: Wilt, Kareem, MJ, Karl Malone, Hakeem, Shaq, Oscar

The arguments can back and forth about who was the greatest but at some point you have to take in consideration the teams that each player played against and how each player perfomed in terms of winning championships, etc..

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:44 AM
Also, you have to account for the era in which each player played in.

GregOden#1
07-12-2008, 04:46 AM
Well I'm not arguing someone's opinion, no matter how stupid and misinformed it is, there is a wealth of information out there that isn't too hard to come by to help people like you from being so ignorant.

I will address one of your arguments though, that we should ask Larry Bird who the best player ever is. Asking NBA players about any other NBA player is usually a dumb thing to do. NBA players dont know what they're talking about, and its a terrible argument for people to use, 99% of the time its just flattery and the other 1% is just people being dumb.


Also, you have to account for the era in which each player played in.

I'd love to see a compelling argument as to why certain era's are stronger than others, I really enjoy shooting these stupid arguments down.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 05:04 AM
No sense in arguing with someone who clearly knows absolutely nothing about basketball.

Iodine
07-12-2008, 05:05 AM
No sense in arguing with someone who clearly knows absolutely nothing about basketball.
I am pretty sure most people agree greg is easily one of the smartest people on PSD

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 05:07 AM
[QUOTE=GregOden#1;5831755]Well I'm not arguing someone's opinion, no matter how stupid and misinformed it is, there is a wealth of information out there that isn't too hard to come by to help people like you from being so ignorant.

I will address one of your arguments though, that we should ask Larry Bird who the best player ever is. Asking NBA players about any other NBA player is usually a dumb thing to do. NBA players dont know what they're talking about, and its a terrible argument for people to use, 99% of the time its just flattery and the other 1% is just people being dumb.



I'd love to see a compelling argument as to why certain era's are stronger than others, I really enjoy shooting these stupid arguments down.[/QUOTe

You can name all of the stats you want, but your arguments are out-dated and lack facts.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 05:08 AM
I am pretty sure most people agree greg is easily one of the smartest people on PSD


Are you his older brother?

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 05:10 AM
I am pretty sure most people agree greg is easily one of the smartest people on PSD

I think Greg is old enough to take care of himself.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 05:18 AM
Well I'm not arguing someone's opinion, no matter how stupid and misinformed it is, there is a wealth of information out there that isn't too hard to come by to help people like you from being so ignorant.

I will address one of your arguments though, that we should ask Larry Bird who the best player ever is. Asking NBA players about any other NBA player is usually a dumb thing to do. NBA players dont know what they're talking about, and its a terrible argument for people to use, 99% of the time its just flattery and the other 1% is just people being dumb.



I'd love to see a compelling argument as to why certain era's are stronger than others, I really enjoy shooting these stupid arguments down.

Take your own advice and look up the information before you give me advice buddy, clearly your lacking in that department.

michaellui11
07-12-2008, 05:18 AM
put pistol pete on that list please

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 05:21 AM
Well I'm not arguing someone's opinion, no matter how stupid and misinformed it is, there is a wealth of information out there that isn't too hard to come by to help people like you from being so ignorant.

I will address one of your arguments though, that we should ask Larry Bird who the best player ever is. Asking NBA players about any other NBA player is usually a dumb thing to do. NBA players dont know what they're talking about, and its a terrible argument for people to use, 99% of the time its just flattery and the other 1% is just people being dumb.



I'd love to see a compelling argument as to why certain era's are stronger than others, I really enjoy shooting these stupid arguments down.

You are probably one of those people that never even played the game of basketball or a sport for that matter, just a computer geek.

LAKERMANIA
07-12-2008, 05:54 AM
magic

Manny Paplfavre
07-12-2008, 07:34 AM
My standard for judging rankings is based on the how well a player perfomed during their era, how many titles did they win as the main guy, and the level of competition they faced during their years in the NBA, also stats and awards factor in as well. Also, it's based on whether or not the particular player had the ability to get the most out of his teammates and take over games down the stretch, i.e. Michael Jordan's reasoning for being the greatest all time. MJ was outstanding during the 80's and when he finally got a good team around him he won his 6 titles. In my opinion, the 80's was the toughest level of competition in NBA history.

He didn't win a title in the 80's

Knicks845
07-12-2008, 07:50 AM
It has to be Bill Russel, even though he should of been "2nd Best Player" of all time.

JordansBulls
07-12-2008, 08:16 AM
If we based the argument on titles we would have to go with:
Russell, MJ, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Kobe, Isaiah, Hakeem, M. Malone, Dr. J, because all of those guys were great and have the most titles.

Stats: Wilt, Kareem, MJ, Karl Malone, Hakeem, Shaq, Oscar

The arguments can back and forth about who was the greatest but at some point you have to take in consideration the teams that each player played against and how each player perfomed in terms of winning championships, etc..

Actually if we based on titles for superstars then Havlicek would be 2nd.

Knicks845
07-12-2008, 08:18 AM
It has to be Bill Russel, even though he should of been "2nd Best Player" of all time.

JordansBulls
07-12-2008, 08:48 AM
If you believe statistics are the most important Wilt goes #1, if you want championships Russell goes #1, etc. There are further parameters, under no circumstance and criteria changing can Magic go above Kareem or Jordan. Actually, I think thats the only inner parameter I can think of...Bird actually can go ahead of Jordan/Kareem if you REALLY REALLY like peak value for some reason. It may seem rigid, but my estimation is 95% of all those thousands of man hours arguing I was talking about earlier were spent arguing about these 6 players and those are the conclusions I and most others have reached.

I'l make a post either tomorrow or the next day telling everyone here how much they're underrating Jerry West because that's really beginning to bug me.

How could Bird go ahead of Kareem or MJ for peak play?

- Statistical dominance. Though Bird put up otherworldly numbers, Jordan's production-- and not just in terms of scoring-- was stratospheric for a non-center. Jordan's average EFF (a cumulative stat that takes into account all the statistical categories and measures overall statistical impact) upon his retirement in 1993 was an astonishing 32.9. And that's an 8 season average. By comparison, Magic only topped 32.9 on one occasion, and even then just barely (33.3 EFF in '88-'89). Bird topped 32.9 on a few occasions (with EFF's of 34.3, 34.4, and 34.0), but his average EFF from 1980-1990 (not counting his last two seasons due to injuries) was "only" 30.4. Jordan's single season high in EFF was 37.0, and he topped 34 two other times as well (34.6 and 35.1). And Jordan led in PER 7x, while Bird did so only once and MJ has the highest PER ever recorded at 27.91 with Shaq being 2nd. Kareem led in PER 8x.

For your other argument about Wilt, I agree that if we are talking about the season you can say he was perhaps tops but then again Jordan overtook him in PER and scoring something no one could have imagined and in the playoffs the records that Wilt had in the season pretty much go to Jordan in the postseason.

fins08
07-12-2008, 09:00 AM
Magic, best PG ever.

yaowowrocket11
07-12-2008, 09:57 AM
Larry Bird is my favorite player of all time, and I believe that he is the 3rd best player of all time.

raptors_516
07-12-2008, 10:09 AM
bill russel
and thanks for taking kobe off
im not a hater but he got way to many votes at #2

cambovenzi
07-12-2008, 10:14 AM
in his prime, kobe is def. top 5 or so. depending on how you look at it.(hard to compare eras and guards to centers)
i don't see how playing out another 6 years is going to make him much better.

kobe2008mvp
07-12-2008, 10:24 AM
why do people put timmy over kobe thats ridicoulous by next year you people are going to say kobe belongs in the top 5

_Supreme_
07-12-2008, 10:38 AM
IMO

Anyone who thinks Kobe Bryant is top 5 all time (or even top 10, 15 or 20)has no clue whatsoever and has no business calling him/herself a basketball fan.




It's very dangerous comparing players who played in different times in the first place. Some players who play today would only be average in the golden age of basketball (the Jordan/Bird/Magic/Pistons bad boys era (s)). Personally I think it can never be done accurately.

JordansBulls
07-12-2008, 11:34 AM
why do people put timmy over kobe thats ridicoulous by next year you people are going to say kobe belongs in the top 5

Maybe because Duncan has 3 finals mvp's and has won 4 times as the teams best player and has finished top 3 in MVP voting more than Kobe. Also because Kobe has never won as the teams best player.

_Supreme_
07-12-2008, 12:50 PM
So if this keeps up Kareem Abdul-Jabbar will be voted #3 best player of all time :drunk: :bs:

JordansBulls
07-12-2008, 12:54 PM
So if this keeps up Kareem Abdul-Jabbar will be voted #3 best player of all time :drunk: :bs:

How is he not? Who can you make a better case for?

BlondeBomber41
07-12-2008, 01:11 PM
why do people put timmy over kobe thats ridicoulous by next year you people are going to say kobe belongs in the top 5

Because he is better and more valuable... its a pretty easy decision.

BlondeBomber41
07-12-2008, 01:20 PM
I am pretty sure most people agree greg is easily one of the smartest people on PSD

:laugh:

You gotta be joking. He just likes to start arguements, doesnt make him right. Most of the time he isnt.

_Sn1P3r_
07-12-2008, 02:11 PM
I voted for Magic.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:05 PM
He didn't win a title in the 80's

Mj didn't win a title in the 80's because he didn't have a legit team. Name his starting five for me back in the 80's, maybe the worst roster assembled around one great player ever.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:12 PM
How could Bird go ahead of Kareem or MJ for peak play?

- Statistical dominance. Though Bird put up otherworldly numbers, Jordan's production-- and not just in terms of scoring-- was stratospheric for a non-center. Jordan's average EFF (a cumulative stat that takes into account all the statistical categories and measures overall statistical impact) upon his retirement in 1993 was an astonishing 32.9. And that's an 8 season average. By comparison, Magic only topped 32.9 on one occasion, and even then just barely (33.3 EFF in '88-'89). Bird topped 32.9 on a few occasions (with EFF's of 34.3, 34.4, and 34.0), but his average EFF from 1980-1990 (not counting his last two seasons due to injuries) was "only" 30.4. Jordan's single season high in EFF was 37.0, and he topped 34 two other times as well (34.6 and 35.1). And Jordan led in PER 7x, while Bird did so only once and MJ has the highest PER ever recorded at 27.91 with Shaq being 2nd. Kareem led in PER 8x.

For your other argument about Wilt, I agree that if we are talking about the season you can say he was perhaps tops but then again Jordan overtook him in PER and scoring something no one could have imagined and in the playoffs the records that Wilt had in the season pretty much go to Jordan in the postseason.

Great post.

GregOden#1
07-12-2008, 04:14 PM
:laugh:

You gotta be joking. He just likes to start arguements, doesnt make him right. Most of the time he isnt.

And you're basing this on what? The one argument we got into that everyone agreed I easily beat you at?

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:20 PM
IMO

Anyone who thinks Kobe Bryant is top 5 all time (or even top 10, 15 or 20)has no clue whatsoever and has no business calling him/herself a basketball fan.




It's very dangerous comparing players who played in different times in the first place. Some players who play today would only be average in the golden age of basketball (the Jordan/Bird/Magic/Pistons bad boys era (s)). Personally I think it can never be done accurately.

Exactly the type of post that can be trashed, Kobe has not reached his 30 th birthday and has an MVP, 3 titles, all-star mvps, all nba 1st team several times, all def. 1st team 6 times, 2 scoring titles, reached the finals 5 times, had 40 points in ten straight games (Only MJ and Wilt have done this), 81 point game (2nd highest ever), for his career has avg. 25ppg, 6apg, 6rpg, had 3 straight 50 point games(Only Wilt has done this), avg. 35.4ppg, 5apg, 5rpg (highest avg. since MJ), oh but he's not a top 15 player, please, next argument, case closed!!

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:22 PM
Not to mention, Kobe is one of the greatest clutch players in NBA history.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:31 PM
Kobe's also ranked number no. 24 all time in scoring (21,619 points), right behind Larry Bird, is no. 12 all time in scoring ppg (24ppg), and is no. 10 all time in scoring during the playoffs (3686 pts)!!!! He's ranked in the top ten all time in playoff scoring averages.

Lakersfan2483
07-12-2008, 04:34 PM
And you're basing this on what? The one argument we got into that everyone agreed I easily beat you at?

I value your opinion although it is flawed at times, I was joking yesterday, some of your posts are insightful.

GregOden#1
07-12-2008, 04:49 PM
How could Bird go ahead of Kareem or MJ for peak play?

- Statistical dominance. Though Bird put up otherworldly numbers, Jordan's production-- and not just in terms of scoring-- was stratospheric for a non-center. Jordan's average EFF (a cumulative stat that takes into account all the statistical categories and measures overall statistical impact) upon his retirement in 1993 was an astonishing 32.9. And that's an 8 season average. By comparison, Magic only topped 32.9 on one occasion, and even then just barely (33.3 EFF in '88-'89). Bird topped 32.9 on a few occasions (with EFF's of 34.3, 34.4, and 34.0), but his average EFF from 1980-1990 (not counting his last two seasons due to injuries) was "only" 30.4. Jordan's single season high in EFF was 37.0, and he topped 34 two other times as well (34.6 and 35.1). And Jordan led in PER 7x, while Bird did so only once and MJ has the highest PER ever recorded at 27.91 with Shaq being 2nd. Kareem led in PER 8x.

I dont really feel like arguing this either, but EFF is a terrible stat and is weighted poorly. As far as PER, Jordan and Kareem were on teams that allowed them to inflate their stats, Bird played on an incredibly stacked team so if we make certain adjustments to the stats it should be easier to see. Taking their highest PER seasons (both 87-88) you can already see by just giving Bird the 2.4 more shot attempts that Jordan took increases Bird's average to 33.2. The average rebound percentage that the 4 bulls starters had, other than Jordan was 11.1% and the Celtics minus Bird 9.9%. Replace the rebounders Bird had with what Jordan had and he'd have a rebound rate of 15.2, giving him 10.1 rebounds per game. That's about as far as I feel like going because already I've broughten the PER as close as .5 away from Jordan's best PER. The other thing that would increase would be the passing, since Bird was not the dominant ball handler and Jordan for the most part was, which would bring Bird's highest PER above Jordan's.

JordansBulls
07-12-2008, 06:11 PM
I dont really feel like arguing this either, but EFF is a terrible stat and is weighted poorly. As far as PER, Jordan and Kareem were on teams that allowed them to inflate their stats, Bird played on an incredibly stacked team so if we make certain adjustments to the stats it should be easier to see. Taking their highest PER seasons (both 87-88) you can already see by just giving Bird the 2.4 more shot attempts that Jordan took increases Bird's average to 33.2. The average rebound percentage that the 4 bulls starters had, other than Jordan was 11.1% and the Celtics minus Bird 9.9%. Replace the rebounders Bird had with what Jordan had and he'd have a rebound rate of 15.2, giving him 10.1 rebounds per game. That's about as far as I feel like going because already I've broughten the PER as close as .5 away from Jordan's best PER. The other thing that would increase would be the passing, since Bird was not the dominant ball handler and Jordan for the most part was, which would bring Bird's highest PER above Jordan's.

:laugh:

Bird's best PER was 27.8 and that was still lower than MJ's career average PER of 27.9.

DreamShaker
07-12-2008, 07:02 PM
Larry Bird is my favorite player of all time, and I believe that he is the 3rd best player of all time.

I thik Bird is underrated on this....if he finishes outside the top 6 it will be a pure travesty.

I'm gonna go with Magic though....the guy had 5 titles....and was a 3-time Finals MVP....he gave Kareem the perfect side kick coming out of college and eventually turned into the leader of that team and the most dominant player in the 1980's in NBA basketball....Russell, Bird, and Kareem all are very close....but i'll give the edge to Magic because he was the best player in the 80's....it's really, really, really close between him and those other 3 IMO though.....

chicagowhitesox
07-12-2008, 10:50 PM
Somebody said Tim Duncan is the 3rd best player of all time! Haha!

MrBloop
07-12-2008, 10:51 PM
How does Kobe Bryant get more votes than Shaq????????

and Kareem & Russ???

Too many lil kids on this mtfr i swear.

AllTheWay
07-12-2008, 11:01 PM
IMO

Anyone who thinks Kobe Bryant is top 5 all time (or even top 10, 15 or 20)has no clue whatsoever and has no business calling him/herself a basketball fan.




It's very dangerous comparing players who played in different times in the first place. Some players who play today would only be average in the golden age of basketball (the Jordan/Bird/Magic/Pistons bad boys era (s)). Personally I think it can never be done accurately.

I agree that Kobe is not a top ten player ever, but to say he doesnt belong in the top 20 is ignorance at it's finest(or worst, whichever you 'prefer')

I am a Laker fan, but not the biggest Kobe fan (I was just fine with a trade if he didn't want to play for the Lakers, you don't want us, we don't want you). Still, you cannot deny the man's achievments and skills put him into the top 20 all-time

In fact, I would smack Kobe right there at #13, which is where I will be voting for him(if he ends up being there, too many kobephiles here).

Supreme, it is a known fact that you dislike Kobe Bryant and/or the Lakers. Every time they are brought up you have to say something, anything, to discredit what they[Bryant, or the Lakers] have done. It's getting old, frankly, and rather annoying and very childish.

ManRam
07-12-2008, 11:26 PM
I agree that Kobe is not a top ten player ever, but to say he doesnt belong in the top 20 is ignorance at it's finest(or worst, whichever you 'prefer')

I am a Laker fan, but not the biggest Kobe fan (I was just fine with a trade if he didn't want to play for the Lakers, you don't want us, we don't want you). Still, you cannot deny the man's achievments and skills put him into the top 20 all-time

In fact, I would smack Kobe right there at #13, which is where I will be voting for him(if he ends up being there, too many kobephiles here).

Supreme, it is a known fact that you dislike Kobe Bryant and/or the Lakers. Every time they are brought up you have to say something, anything, to discredit what they[Bryant, or the Lakers] have done. It's getting old, frankly, and rather annoying and very childish

I'm with you. I don't hide my dislike of the Lakers much...but Kobe is the best player in the league now, and arguably has been for a while, which alone puts him in the top 20 all time. He's done everything: won MVPs, rings, all-star games, all defense teams etc. He's flat out dominant. The competition today is also a lot better than it was 20-30 years ago and more. No matter how much you hate him, and it's not hard to do, he's great. You can't deny that.

Calling telling people that they aren't basketball fans because they think Kobe is a top 20 player all time, like Supreme did, is crazy. What more does Kobe need to do (actually, I know...win without Shaq). But still, everyone is entitled to their opinion...and calling Kobe a top 10, or even 20 player of all time is not crazy...certainly not as much as him telling people they aren't real fans because they think so.

And AllTheWay, there are just as many kobe lovers as there are kobephiles on this site...which is clearly evident in the fact that he received 16 votes last round! He'll finish top ten here...no doubt. Probably will win the second he's on the ballot again.

AllTheWay
07-13-2008, 12:17 AM
I'm with you. I don't hide my dislike of the Lakers much...but Kobe is the best player in the league now, and arguably has been for a while, which alone puts him in the top 20 all time. He's done everything: won MVPs, rings, all-star games, all defense teams etc. He's flat out dominant. The competition today is also a lot better than it was 20-30 years ago and more. No matter how much you hate him, and it's not hard to do, he's great. You can't deny that.

Calling telling people that they aren't basketball fans because they think Kobe is a top 20 player all time, like Supreme did, is crazy. What more does Kobe need to do (actually, I know...win without Shaq). But still, everyone is entitled to their opinion...and calling Kobe a top 10, or even 20 player of all time is not crazy...certainly not as much as him telling people they aren't real fans because they think so.

And AllTheWay, there are just as many kobe lovers as there are kobephiles on this site...which is clearly evident in the fact that he received 16 votes last round! He'll finish top ten here...no doubt. Probably will win the second he's on the ballot again.


Thanks for backing me, but isnt the bolded above the exact same thing? Phile mean you like something, no? Hence, Pedophile?

marvILLous
07-13-2008, 12:21 AM
Magic

innovator
07-13-2008, 12:37 AM
kobe cuz his the 2nd best player in the history of the nba.. and if kobe played in chamberlains timew and if wilt is playing right now then people would respect kobe more and would have voted him 2nd... nba fans before are nicer than nba fans now

JIDsanity
07-13-2008, 12:46 AM
Jerry West went to the finals 9 times and brought home 1 title, case closed about him being in the top 5 or ten. If you look at the talent he played with he should have had more than 1 title, no excuses for that, period. I have studied the game and I know what I am talking about and just because I am a laker fan, does not make me biased, I give credit where credit is do. Dr. J had a nice midrange game bro, but Kobe, and Michael could take you inside and outside, don't tell me Dr. J was a better shooter or scorer than Kobe Bryant. Dr. J didn't have the range of a Kobe Bryant or MJ.
Kobe nor MJ are great outside shooters themselves.

Lakersfan2483
07-13-2008, 01:56 AM
Kobe nor MJ are great outside shooters themselves.

That's funny because Kobe has the record for the most 3 pointers made in a game, and MJ has the record for most 3 pointers made in 1 half of the finals, and seeing that MJ shot around 50 pct. for his career and Kobe about .46pct, I would say they are good shooters. MJ was a high fly act his first 9 years and began to shoot more jumpers towards the end of his career. Kobe was a slasher in the beginning of his career and most of his shots nowadays are jumpers, both are good outside shooters, who become great outside shooters when the game is on the line esp. Michael Jordan.

GregOden#1
07-13-2008, 03:49 AM
That's funny because Kobe has the record for the most 3 pointers made in a game, and MJ has the record for most 3 pointers made in 1 half of the finals, and seeing that MJ shot around 50 pct. for his career and Kobe about .46pct, I would say they are good shooters. MJ was a high fly act his first 9 years and began to shoot more jumpers towards the end of his career. Kobe was a slasher in the beginning of his career and most of his shots nowadays are jumpers, both are good outside shooters, who become great outside shooters when the game is on the line esp. Michael Jordan.

Anybody can get hot and make alot of threes, doesn't make them good 3 point shooters. BTW Erving shot a better percentage than either Jordan or Kobe, even if you take out Jordan's Wizards years. He had a better mid-range jumpshot than Kobe does, probably not Jordan but as close as you can get to him.

Lizard King
07-13-2008, 03:53 AM
Russell gets my vote.

ARMIN12NBA
07-13-2008, 03:59 AM
Mj didn't win a title in the 80's because he didn't have a legit team. Name his starting five for me back in the 80's, maybe the worst roster assembled around one great player ever.

I'm pretty sure a roster of Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, and Laron Profit is the worst roster assembled around one great player and that team went 7 games against the Suns!!!

Jordan had this guy named Orlando Woolridge who averaged 23 points and he had a guy like Dailey who averaged 16 points. Also, Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen came later in the 80's. Plus they brought in George Gervin and they even had Charles Oakley. Wasn't too bad, eh?

Lakersfan2483
07-13-2008, 05:38 AM
I'm pretty sure a roster of Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, and Laron Profit is the worst roster assembled around one great player and that team went 7 games against the Suns!!!

Jordan had this guy named Orlando Woolridge who averaged 23 points and he had a guy like Dailey who averaged 16 points. Also, Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen came later in the 80's. Plus they brought in George Gervin and they even had Charles Oakley. Wasn't too bad, eh?

Horace Grant and Pippen were far from their primes at that time, and they came in during the late 80's. Oakely was a solid rebounder, but not someone you could give the ball to down low and say go to work. Woolridge was a decent player, but that team wasn't competing with a team like the Celtics who had arguably the greatest frontcourt in NBA history. The Bulls starting center was Dave Corzine, come on, now.

Kobe's teams after Shaq were terrible as well, but do your homework on how terrible that 80's Bulls team was, MJ had zero help back then. Horace and Pippen didn't hit their stride until 89-90.

Lakersfan2483
07-13-2008, 05:41 AM
MJ was one of the few players to ever lead a team to multiple championships without a legit big man, who could give you 20 plus points and 10 plus rebs. Isaiah Thomas was also able to win 2 titles without a dominant big man, but Detroit had a great defensive team and a nice defensive frontcourt, ditto for the 90's Bulls teams i.e. Horace Grant, Cartwright, Longley, and Rodman.

Lakersfan2483
07-13-2008, 05:43 AM
I'm pretty sure a roster of Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, and Laron Profit is the worst roster assembled around one great player and that team went 7 games against the Suns!!!

Jordan had this guy named Orlando Woolridge who averaged 23 points and he had a guy like Dailey who averaged 16 points. Also, Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen came later in the 80's. Plus they brought in George Gervin and they even had Charles Oakley. Wasn't too bad, eh?


George Gervin was past his prime when they brought him in, its like when the Lakers brought in Mitch Richmond or Gary Payton, those guys were past their prime yrs.

Lakersfan2483
07-13-2008, 05:46 AM
Anybody can get hot and make alot of threes, doesn't make them good 3 point shooters. BTW Erving shot a better percentage than either Jordan or Kobe, even if you take out Jordan's Wizards years. He had a better mid-range jumpshot than Kobe does, probably not Jordan but as close as you can get to him.


If anybody could do it, why are those records so hard to come by and why are they still standing? MJ and Kobe are not great three point shooters, but they are great players who can shoot from distance contrary to what folks believe. Kobe has had more than one game in which he has had a number of three pointers made, but that is beside the point, MJ and Kobe's numbers speak for themselves.

MoJay
07-13-2008, 09:41 AM
Close race but Kareem should prevail

JordansBulls
07-13-2008, 09:44 AM
I'm pretty sure a roster of Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, and Laron Profit is the worst roster assembled around one great player and that team went 7 games against the Suns!!!

Jordan had this guy named Orlando Woolridge who averaged 23 points and he had a guy like Dailey who averaged 16 points. Also, Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen came later in the 80's. Plus they brought in George Gervin and they even had Charles Oakley. Wasn't too bad, eh?

Those guys were doing that the year before MJ was drafted as well but they still only won 27 games. The year MJ got drafted he led the team in points, rebounds, steals and assists and was the only player ever to do that.
And let's not forget that in the year that Jordan broke his leg and had missed 64 games. Also it was Gervin's last year and he played like 3 mpg in the playoffs.

Also I find it convenient you mentioned those guys for Kobe, but don't mention Odom or even Caron Butler and how he either had Rudy T as coach or a hall of famer and one of the top coaches of all time in Phil Jackson.
Also while Phoenix was a decent team that year in 2006 they really weren't that good, they didn't even have a center. They had a 6'8" guy named Boris Diaw playing Center for them.
The talent level on that Lakers vs that Suns team was not much different especially considering Odom played better than Marion.




Horace Grant and Pippen were far from their primes at that time, and they came in during the late 80's. Oakely was a solid rebounder, but not someone you could give the ball to down low and say go to work. Woolridge was a decent player, but that team wasn't competing with a team like the Celtics who had arguably the greatest frontcourt in NBA history. The Bulls starting center was Dave Corzine, come on, now.

Kobe's teams after Shaq were terrible as well, but do your homework on how terrible that 80's Bulls team was, MJ had zero help back then. Horace and Pippen didn't hit their stride until 89-90.

Exactly!! People have this myth that Pippen and Grant came into the league great. They weren't, it took them a few years to be good players. Pippen turned into one of the greatest players ever and that was due to winning titles. Once you win titles perception changes of a player.

Knicks845
07-13-2008, 10:12 AM
bill.

AirJordanXVIII
07-13-2008, 10:16 AM
I voted for Kareem, but it's really a tossup betwenn Kareem and Magic.

JIDsanity
07-13-2008, 10:41 AM
That's funny because Kobe has the record for the most 3 pointers made in a game, and MJ has the record for most 3 pointers made in 1 half of the finals, and seeing that MJ shot around 50 pct. for his career and Kobe about .46pct, I would say they are good shooters. MJ was a high fly act his first 9 years and began to shoot more jumpers towards the end of his career. Kobe was a slasher in the beginning of his career and most of his shots nowadays are jumpers, both are good outside shooters, who become great outside shooters when the game is on the line esp. Michael Jordan.

Lol look at the percentages. That's hot shooting that doesn't make them great shooters.

JIDsanity
07-13-2008, 10:47 AM
That's funny because Kobe has the record for the most 3 pointers made in a game, and MJ has the record for most 3 pointers made in 1 half of the finals, and seeing that MJ shot around 50 pct. for his career and Kobe about .46pct, I would say they are good shooters. MJ was a high fly act his first 9 years and began to shoot more jumpers towards the end of his career. Kobe was a slasher in the beginning of his career and most of his shots nowadays are jumpers, both are good outside shooters, who become great outside shooters when the game is on the line esp. Michael Jordan.

:eyebrow:
Since when did Jordan shoot 50% from 3 for his career?
Since when did Kobe shoot 46% from 3 for his career?
Jordan shot 32% from 3 for his career, and Kobe is at 34%.
Those a sub-par numbers.
As far as FG% you are correct but, FG % is not all jumpers. FG% includes dunks and lay ups.

Lakersfan2483
07-13-2008, 02:33 PM
Both Kobe and MJ are not pure shooters, that wasn't my point but to say they can't shoot from the outside is absurd, that was my whole argument and I never said they shot 50 pct and 46 pct from the 3 point line, that was their career field goal pct.

alexander_37
07-13-2008, 02:47 PM
Dream

NBAkYD
07-13-2008, 02:59 PM
How/Why is Duncan up there?

GregOden#1
07-13-2008, 03:55 PM
If anybody could do it, why are those records so hard to come by and why are they still standing? MJ and Kobe are not great three point shooters, but they are great players who can shoot from distance contrary to what folks believe. Kobe has had more than one game in which he has had a number of three pointers made, but that is beside the point, MJ and Kobe's numbers speak for themselves.

Yes they do. They both shoot below average from 3, Jordan at 34% and Kobe at 36%. Neither are good 3 point shooters.

Also, Donyell Marshall tied Kobe's record for most 3's in a game, a roleplayer who saw scarce minutes on that Toronto team. Like I said, anybody can get hot if you shoot enough.

cambovenzi
07-13-2008, 03:57 PM
Yes they do. They both shoot below average from 3, Jordan at 34% and Kobe at 36%. Neither are good 3 point shooters.

Also, Donyell Marshall tied Kobe's record for most 3's in a game, a roleplayer who saw scarce minutes on that Toronto team. Like I said, anybody can get hot if you shoot enough.

they are both very good 3pt shooters.
kobe especially.

he oftens shoots them with guys in his face, and still makes many of them.

Ramon Nivar
07-13-2008, 04:00 PM
How/Why is Duncan up there?

NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
NBA MVP (2002, 2003)
NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)
1997-98 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1997-98 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1997-98 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
1998-99 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1998-99 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1999-00 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

You tell me why he shouldn't be.

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-13-2008, 05:03 PM
I go with Kareem. He was unstoppable on offense. He has the stats, accolades and championships only matched by Jordan

BaRRySandAmaN
07-13-2008, 06:07 PM
I gave it to Kareem the guy with the Sweet Hook Shot.

AllTheWay
07-13-2008, 08:25 PM
:eyebrow:
Since when did Jordan shoot 50% from 3 for his career?
Since when did Kobe shoot 46% from 3 for his career?
Jordan shot 32% from 3 for his career, and Kobe is at 34%.
Those a sub-par numbers.
As far as FG% you are correct but, FG % is not all jumpers. FG% includes dunks and lay ups.

He was talking about their overall FG%, not 3PFG%

Lakersfan2483
07-13-2008, 10:48 PM
they are both very good 3pt shooters.
kobe especially.

he oftens shoots them with guys in his face, and still makes many of them.

Exactly my point.

fredv
07-14-2008, 06:57 AM
I just can't understand how Shaq has more votes than a guy like Hakeem Olajuwon. Are you guys ********?

JordansBulls
07-14-2008, 10:04 AM
I just can't understand how Shaq has more votes than a guy like Hakeem Olajuwon. Are you guys ********?

Maybe because he has more finals mvp's and the same MVP's while at the same time was more statistically dominant?

:shrug:

MoJay
07-14-2008, 01:15 PM
I knew Kareem would get #3 he deserves it

midwestmadman
07-14-2008, 01:42 PM
Where is Will Perdue in all this mess? I mean come on 3 titles with the Bulls! kidding of course, I would go with Magic or the Oscar Robertson giving a slight edge to the Big O simply due to the fact that I can't see anyone in recent history or the near future even getting close to his all time triple doubles record. I feel like he doesn't get as much exposure in highlight reels on ESPN Classic etc because the 80's were really the hayday of the NBA's popularity on the media platform. Which is why I am sure many people are inclinded to pick Magic Johnson, don't get me wrong, Magic is definately up there and I can see why people would pick him 3rd all time, but for my money the Big O was a moe valualbe player based on statistics.