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Gorgon2k
07-11-2008, 09:51 AM
I think the all-star voting has reached an all time low. For the first time ever the rbi leader and home run leader of a given league will not be in the all star game, and he is both. Its an absolute joke. The fact that he is backing .240 and striking out a lot shouldn't keep him out. What is the take from you non-Philadelphia fans?

johnnylee722
07-11-2008, 10:06 AM
I think the all-star voting has reached an all time low. For the first time ever the rbi leader and home run leader of a given league will not be in the all star game, and he is both. Its an absolute joke. The fact that he is backing .240 and striking out a lot shouldn't keep him out. What is the take from you non-Philadelphia fans?

Wright and Burrell are worse. There is a lot of good 1st baseman out there this year who deserved to make it and didn't.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-11-2008, 10:12 AM
Wright and Burrell are worse. There is a lot of good 1st baseman out there this year who deserved to make it and didn't.

Burell is a lot worse. Howard just flat out doesn't deserve to be in the All Star game theres a lot of 1b that I would take over him.

As far as Wright...I wouldn't call him a snub he and ramirez's numbers are very similar.

hockeyplaya97
07-11-2008, 10:14 AM
I would put Pujols and Berkman ahead of Howard so I don't think that he really got snubbed.

jetsfan28
07-11-2008, 10:23 AM
I think the all-star voting has reached an all time low. For the first time ever the rbi leader and home run leader of a given league will not be in the all star game, and he is both. Its an absolute joke. The fact that he is backing .240 and striking out a lot shouldn't keep him out. What is the take from you non-Philadelphia fans?

Ryan Howard wasn't the best player on his team not to make it, so he was not snubbed at all. 2 players were much, much bigger snubs.

David Wright - .288/.386/.511/139 OPS+
Pat Burrell - .279/.412/.581/155 OPS+ (Note: I have no idea how the **** he didn't make it)
Ryan Howard - .234 (:puke:)/.325 (:puke:)/.510/113 OPS+

Howard has a much worse average, much worse OBP, and, despite playing in a much easier park, worse slugging than Wright, and his park adjusted OPS+ to make up for the park difference is much, much worse. He's significantly worse than Burrell in every category. So please, explain to me how he got snubbed.

Knicks845
07-11-2008, 10:24 AM
I think the all-star voting has reached an all time low. For the first time ever the rbi leader and home run leader of a given league will not be in the all star game, and he is both. Its an absolute joke. The fact that he is backing .240 and striking out a lot shouldn't keep him out. What is the take from you non-Philadelphia fans?

Yeah, I'm'a mets fan, and I believe he was snubbed from tho all-star-game.

AddVance
07-11-2008, 10:29 AM
Burrell is a lot worse. Howard just flat out doesn't deserve to be in the All Star game theres a lot of 1b that I would take over him.

As far as Wright...I wouldn't call him a snub he and ramirez's numbers are very similar.

WTF?? Yeah I'm a Philadelphia fan, and so what... Me and my homie (who's also an avid Phillies fan) had this same discussion yesterday... And while we both agree that Howard has more opposition due to his position, and he does strike out a lot, AND the fact that Burrell may be a LOT worse in terms of snubs(because Fukudome, in NO way, deserves a spot over him. Soriano got in due to name recognition)... Burrell should not only be on the team, he should be STARTING.

Back to Howard. There is NO WAY THAT YOU CAN JUSTIFY LEAVING BOTH THE HR AND RBI LEADER OUT OF THE ALL STAR GAME, ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS THE SAME PERSON. Point BLANK. You can say "Oh, Pujols and Berkman are doing this or that," but I could have SWORN that the All-Star game is based on individual achievement, and while Pujols and Berkman have better OPS, batting averages and less strikeouts, neither puts runs on the board like Ryan Howard, evidenced in his leading the majors in both HR's and RBI's.

I don't care if he strikes out a MILLION times. With his numbers, he should be on the team. Hell, if he had the same batting averages as Pujols or Berkman, there'd be an even BIGGER gap between them in terms of production. The Phillies were screwed in this all-star game. Period.

Knowledge
07-11-2008, 10:37 AM
he started off so slow that it hurt his chances, but in he is showing signs of being a all star/MVP level performer in July. he is hitting .375 in July, with seven home runs and 15 RBIs in 10 games. He also has 13 game hitting streak.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-11-2008, 10:39 AM
WTF?? Yeah I'm a Philadelphia fan, and so what... Me and my homie (who's also an avid Phillies fan) had this same discussion yesterday... And while we both agree that Howard has more opposition due to his position, and he does strike out a lot, AND the fact that Burrell may be a LOT worse in terms of snubs(because Fukudome, in NO way, deserves a spot over him. Soriano got in due to name recognition)... Burrell should not only be on the team, he should be STARTING.

Back to Howard. There is NO WAY THAT YOU CAN JUSTIFY LEAVING BOTH THE HR AND RBI LEADER OUT OF THE ALL STAR GAME, ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS THE SAME PERSON. Point BLANK. You can say "Oh, Pujols and Berkman are doing this or that," but I could have SWORN that the All-Star game is based on individual achievement, and while Pujols and Berkman have better OPS, batting averages and less strikeouts, neither puts runs on the board like Ryan Howard, evidenced in his leading the majors in both HR's and RBI's.

I don't care if he strikes out a MILLION times. With his numbers, he should be on the team. Hell, if he had the same batting averages as Pujols or Berkman, there'd be an even BIGGER gap between them in terms of production. The Phillies were screwed in this all-star game. Period.

I could give two flying ****s about him being the RBI leader. 1B I would take over Howard from the NL in the All Star game
1.Lance Berkman-how can you argue the MVP calibur season he's having the guy rakes
2.Albert Pujols-As a cubs fan if I'm willing to say he is the best player in baseball what does that tell you? Both he and Berkman have OPS above 1.000
3.Derrek Lee-Not only does he have .050 points higher in OBP he's SLG for the same AND plays better defense
4.Mark Teixeira-little less power but still gets on base a **** ton more

Those are 4 for sure that get it before Howard's name should even be mentioned. Then he can be talked about with Adrian Gonz who's very under rated cuz he plays for a ****ty team. Conor Jackson whos fallen off because his team has too. Prince Fielder making a strong push after a ****ty start. Lastly Joey Votto a rookie 1B that has similar offensive numbers.

By the way I can't wait to see Howard shatter his old strike out record.

jetsfan28
07-11-2008, 10:39 AM
WTF?? Yeah I'm a Philadelphia fan, and so what... Me and my homie (who's also an avid Phillies fan) had this same discussion yesterday... And while we both agree that Howard has more opposition due to his position, and he does strike out a lot, AND the fact that Burrell may be a LOT worse in terms of snubs(because Fukudome, in NO way, deserves a spot over him. Soriano got in due to name recognition)... Burrell should not only be on the team, he should be STARTING.

Back to Howard. There is NO WAY THAT YOU CAN JUSTIFY LEAVING BOTH THE HR AND RBI LEADER OUT OF THE ALL STAR GAME, ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS THE SAME PERSON. Point BLANK. You can say "Oh, Pujols and Berkman are doing this or that," but I could have SWORN that the All-Star game is based on individual achievement, and while Pujols and Berkman have better OPS, batting averages and less strikeouts, neither puts runs on the board like Ryan Howard, evidenced in his leading the majors in both HR's and RBI's.

I don't care if he strikes out a MILLION times. With his numbers, he should be on the team. Hell, if he had the same batting averages as Pujols or Berkman, there'd be an even BIGGER gap between them in terms of production. The Phillies were screwed in this all-star game. Period.

He hits for a worse average, gets on base worse, slugs worse, and his park adjusted numbers outside of that little league field are much, much worse. No way he deserves to be in because he leads in two stats, one of which is basically a meaningless stat since he has more RBI chances than other players, another which is inflated by his ballpark.

The A Team
07-11-2008, 10:42 AM
Wright and Burrell are worse. There is a lot of good 1st baseman out there this year who deserved to make it and didn't.

Agreed. I think the biggest snub of all from the Phillies was Cole Hamels. The only way you can defend not naming him is because he's due to start the games before and after the break and so would not be able to participate.


And don't start with the friggin ballpark bull****. Howard's hit maybe one homerun that barely got over the wall...It was in RF where the distance is pretty standard.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-11-2008, 10:42 AM
He hits for a worse average, gets on base worse, slugs worse, and his park adjusted numbers outside of that little league field are much, much worse. No way he deserves to be in because he leads in two stats, one of which is basically a meaningless stat since he has more RBI chances than other players, another which is inflated by his ballpark.

Great point JF28 I didn't even think about their little park
Here's his away splits OBP .284 SLG .486 OPS.770 with an OPS+ of 111 :puke:

the_watcher
07-11-2008, 10:45 AM
Burell is a lot worse. Howard just flat out doesn't deserve to be in the All Star game theres a lot of 1b that I would take over him.

As far as Wright...I wouldn't call him a snub he and ramirez's numbers are very similar.

I wouldnt say Howard doesnt deserve to be in, its just there are other first basemen that are having better seasons than him. And thats fine.

In the case of Wright, I would call him a snub... he's the best 3rd baseman in the National League and he's not on the all-star team because his team hasn't been very good. If the Cubs and Mets switched records Wright would be in without a doubt. For some reason Cubs fans think because their team is in first place then they should have 18 flippin all-stars. The fact that Fukudome is even on the team is an embarrassment, let alone the fact that he's starting.

PhillyLuver
07-11-2008, 10:48 AM
We should be glad he didn't make it... He'd ask for a lot more dough (arbitration)

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-11-2008, 10:58 AM
I wouldnt say Howard doesnt deserve to be in, its just there are other first basemen that are having better seasons than him. And thats fine.

In the case of Wright, I would call him a snub... he's the best 3rd baseman in the National League and he's not on the all-star team because his team hasn't been very good. If the Cubs and Mets switched records Wright would be in without a doubt. For some reason Cubs fans think because their team is in first place then they should have 18 flippin all-stars. The fact that Fukudome is even on the team is an embarrassment, let alone the fact that he's starting.

How does that first statement make any sense? You wouldn't say Howard doesn't deserve to be in it but there are other first basemen having better seasons? Are you in politics? Because there are better 1b out there he doesn't deserve to be in it plain and simple.


I agree that Fook and Sori dont belong but to say that Wright is the best 3rd basemen in the NL right now is a stretch. Its Chipper Jones. And dont act like the mets fans haven't done that kind of thing in the past when they were in first. Fact is the cubs are the best team in the NL does that mean they should have the most all stars no but to say that Wright is better than Aramis, when their numbers are very similar offensively and aramis is better defensively is homerish. To say he is a snub is a large stretch. I'd put it more at he was straddling the fence.

WhyDuquette
07-11-2008, 11:04 AM
pat the bat got snubbed

howard didnt

maybe from the hr derby def not the as game

Tragedy
07-11-2008, 11:06 AM
JF28 is right, people.

Just because you lead in two categories doesn't mean you're having yourself a fantastic year. Looking deeper, he's been nothing special.

And anyways, even if he DID deserve it, it wouldn't be the first time that a good player didn't make the team.

tomno00
07-11-2008, 11:22 AM
he has stuck out 125 times and is batting .234..... and he is a horrible defender...... anything else?

BearSox
07-11-2008, 11:37 AM
The fact that he is on pace to become the first player ever to strikeout 200 or more times in a single season and is on pace to break the single season strikeout record (which he indeed already holds) might have something to do with him not making the team. Not to mention hei's batting .230 with a terrible OBP.

Ph1lly Diehard
07-11-2008, 11:40 AM
He shouldn't have made it, but he should have been in consideration, which he really wasn't even in.

Pat Burrell and Cole Hamels were the 2 biggest snubs of the NL allstar team.

And i'm not even being a homer, they were..

cwilson21
07-11-2008, 12:19 PM
Too many good 1B in the NL this season. Howard strikes out way too much and plus, his numbers are inflated in that ballpark.

C-ross12
07-11-2008, 12:42 PM
He can still play for my team if he wants.. Hes not a bad player its just 1B is always stacked with good bats. Pujols, Berkman, Tex, Lee, Gonzalez, Fielder and Howard for starters.

Interesting. Take a looke at Mike Jacobs and Ryan Howards stats. Pretty close hah.

PhillySportFan
07-11-2008, 12:54 PM
He was snubbed, you can't argue he wasn't!!! Hes the first player since 1948(heard this on local Philly channel I think)that wouldn't get accepted to the all-star team thats leading the league in RBI's and leading all of the MLB in HRs. He could atleast have been invited to the HR derby. There is no argument to say thats not being snubbed, being 2nd in all of the MLB in RBIs and not get in!! That shouldn't happen. Also as bad as his batting average is and his strikeouts he still has a really good percentage with guys in scoring position, something like .350. I mean come on, hes been clutch this year for us. He still can get in though, not much of a chance though.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-11-2008, 01:03 PM
He was snubbed, you can't argue he wasn't!!! Hes the first player since 1948(heard this on local Philly channel I think)that wouldn't get accepted to the all-star team thats leading the league in RBI's and leading all of the MLB in HRs. He could atleast have been invited to the HR derby. There is no argument to say thats not being snubbed, being 2nd in all of the MLB in RBIs and not get in!! That shouldn't happen. Also as bad as his batting average is and his strikeouts he still has a really good percentage with guys in scoring position, something like .350. I mean come on, hes been clutch this year for us. He still can get in though, not much of a chance though.

I dont give a rats *** about RBI's they're a stupid stat to compare different players to. I also could care less about him leading the league in HR's you know why? Because all of the guys I listed in front of him still have a higher SLG%. Damn I guess the Philly "phans" are trying to surpass the giants pitching for biggest PSD homers.

ShinobiNYC
07-11-2008, 01:06 PM
He should only be in the Hr derby over Utley. let everyone participate.

PhillySportFan
07-11-2008, 01:16 PM
I dont give a rats *** about RBI's they're a stupid stat to compare different players to. I also could care less about him leading the league in HR's you know why? Because all of the guys I listed in front of him still have a higher SLG%. Damn I guess the Philly "phans" are trying to surpass the giants pitching for biggest PSD homers.

Let me ask you a question? How do you win games? If you score 0 you think your going to win? No, RBIs is what makes teams win and when your the 2nd best at helping your team score runs and put yourself in position to win then you should be an all-star. SLG%, who cares, that percentage means nothing, the actual hitting of a homerun is what counts. Percentages sometimes are good but when it comes to actually hitting homeruns which is what counts, sometimes fans overanalyze some stats. Scoring is what counts and Ryan Howard does that more then most other players in the league.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-11-2008, 01:20 PM
Let me ask you a question? How do you win games? If you score 0 you think your going to win? No, RBIs is what makes teams win and when your the 2nd best at helping your team score runs and put yourself in position to win then you should be an all-star. SLG%, who cares, that percentage means nothing, the actual hitting of a homerun is what counts. Percentages sometimes are good but when it comes to actually hitting homeruns which is what counts, sometimes fans overanalyze some stats. Scoring is what counts and Ryan Howard does that more then most other players in the league.

Wow you're serious? RBI's depend on the team around you. If you have two ****ty OBP guys in front of you it doesn't matter how great of a hitter you actually are because theres no one on base so you cant compare batters when the stats you use clearly are based upon people around you as well as your hitting.

Second SLG % is very important because it shows a players ability to hit more than just doubles. Great hitters dont go up and swing for the fences everytime. They'll hit HR, Doubles Triples, etc. Grow up and take off the homerism and learn the ACTUAL game of baseball

chicagowhitesox
07-11-2008, 01:24 PM
Leave him out. That'd be rewarding a player for just swinging for the fences every time and not caring about striking out for the all time record two seasons in a row.

SHONIE
07-11-2008, 01:28 PM
Wow you're serious? RBI's depend on the team around you. If you have two ****ty OBP guys in front of you it doesn't matter how great of a hitter you actually are because theres no one on base so you cant compare batters when the stats you use clearly are based upon people around you as well as your hitting.

Second SLG % is very important because it shows a players ability to hit more than just doubles. Great hitters dont go up and swing for the fences everytime. They'll hit HR, Doubles Triples, etc. Grow up and take off the homerism and learn the ACTUAL game of baseball

burn...

PhillySportFan
07-11-2008, 01:31 PM
Wow you're serious? RBI's depend on the team around you. If you have two ****ty OBP guys in front of you it doesn't matter how great of a hitter you actually are because theres no one on base so you cant compare batters when the stats you use clearly are based upon people around you as well as your hitting.

Second SLG % is very important because it shows a players ability to hit more than just doubles. Great hitters dont go up and swing for the fences everytime. They'll hit HR, Doubles Triples, etc. Grow up and take off the homerism and learn the ACTUAL game of baseball

Look I'm not no little kid, Stats that actually tell the story of how you played is RBIs, ERA, Runs, thing like that, those statistics actually win games, the other ones just tell the story of that player throughout the whole season. Other stats that actually mean things is like runners in scoring position percentage. I know the game of baseball, I can tell you there not worried about there SLG % when there leading the league in RBIs. Your the one who acts like those certain stats mean something when they don't.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-11-2008, 01:43 PM
Look I'm not no little kid, Stats that actually tell the story of how you played is RBIs, ERA, Runs, thing like that, those statistics actually win games, the other ones just tell the story of that player throughout the whole season. Other stats that actually mean things is like runners in scoring position percentage. I know the game of baseball, I can tell you there not worried about there SLG % when there leading the league in RBIs. Your the one who acts like those certain stats mean something when they don't.

If you're not a little kid how do you not understand the correct use of "they're". RBI's win games YES we all know that obviously. But the fact of the matter is you can't compare RBI's from player to player because you dont know whos in front of him and who gets on base. And yes I'm worried bout SLG % even if they are leading the league in RBIs you know why? Because what if all of a sudden no one gets on base ahead of him? Then he's still hitting for less power than numerous people who are not only better hitters but better all around baseball players.

awesomeovie8
07-11-2008, 02:11 PM
well you guys can jerk off to money ball stats but you win baseball by scoring more runs and ryan howard make's people score runs. And hes clutch as ****, look at his avrg. with 2 outs and runners out.

dbow2019
07-11-2008, 02:21 PM
ryan howard shouldnt be an allstar....hes awful, and this is comming from a phillies fan that watches every game...if he would have made the allstar game i would have been furious....all he does is strikeout

JHG722
07-11-2008, 02:23 PM
I'm a Phillies fan, and Ryan did NOT deserve to be in the ASG...

Lady's Man
07-11-2008, 02:26 PM
you have to be on crack to think that howard deserves it over berkman or pujos, who by the way are batting 114 points better than him.. Howard is a hit or miss type of player, which explains his low *** average and his high total of hr's.. pujos and berkman are actually good hitters and display plate discipline. I would take berkman, pujos, tex, lee all over his ***. And he also is a ****ty defensive player.

JHG722
07-11-2008, 02:31 PM
Too many good 1B in the NL this season. Howard strikes out way too much and plus, his numbers are inflated in that ballpark.

For HRs? Average Distance higher than Prince Fielder, Adrian Gonzalez, Carlos Pena, Griffey, Sizemore, Giambi, Wright. If you think their numbers are inflated, then LOL...

JHG722
07-11-2008, 02:31 PM
you have to be on crack to think that howard deserves it over berkman or pujos, who by the way are batting 114 points better than him.. Howard is a hit or miss type of player, which explains his low *** average and his high total of hr's.. pujos and berkman are actually good hitters and display plate discipline. I would take berkman, pujos, tex, lee all over his ***. And he also is a ****ty defensive player.

It's 'Pujols'...:pity:

CORY_RITCH
07-11-2008, 02:32 PM
WTF?? Yeah I'm a Philadelphia fan, and so what... Me and my homie (who's also an avid Phillies fan) had this same discussion yesterday... And while we both agree that Howard has more opposition due to his position, and he does strike out a lot, AND the fact that Burrell may be a LOT worse in terms of snubs(because Fukudome, in NO way, deserves a spot over him. Soriano got in due to name recognition)... Burrell should not only be on the team, he should be STARTING.

Back to Howard. There is NO WAY THAT YOU CAN JUSTIFY LEAVING BOTH THE HR AND RBI LEADER OUT OF THE ALL STAR GAME, ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS THE SAME PERSON. Point BLANK. You can say "Oh, Pujols and Berkman are doing this or that," but I could have SWORN that the All-Star game is based on individual achievement, and while Pujols and Berkman have better OPS, batting averages and less strikeouts, neither puts runs on the board like Ryan Howard, evidenced in his leading the majors in both HR's and RBI's.

I don't care if he strikes out a MILLION times. With his numbers, he should be on the team. Hell, if he had the same batting averages as Pujols or Berkman, there'd be an even BIGGER gap between them in terms of production. The Phillies were screwed in this all-star game. Period.

yea sorry but .234 dont get you into an all-star game, perhaps he'll be in the HR derby

Bobby Cox
07-11-2008, 02:34 PM
.234 is all you need to know..... maybe 125 too

JHG722
07-11-2008, 02:45 PM
well you guys can jerk off to money ball stats but you win baseball by scoring more runs and ryan howard make's people score runs. And hes clutch as ****, look at his avrg. with 2 outs and runners out.

Clutch doesn't exist. Ryan's Win Shares were horrible before yesterday, his WSP is horrendous, and his WSAB is horrible even after yesterday.

Shlumpledink
07-11-2008, 02:45 PM
Its funny how blinded people are by home runs and rbis. Pujols would have great numbers this year too, IF TEAMS PITCHED TO HIM. If there are runners on with first open, pujols is getting walked. No one fears howards .234 average so they're still pitching to him. And its just recently that he became the home run leader. Its not like he's been raking all season long.

JHG722
07-11-2008, 02:55 PM
Its funny how blinded people are by home runs and rbis. Pujols would have great numbers this year too, IF TEAMS PITCHED TO HIM. If there are runners on with first open, pujols is getting walked. No one fears howards .234 average so they're still pitching to him. And its just recently that he became the home run leader. Its not like he's been raking all season long.

Ryan walks plenty, just not as frequently as Pujols.

dcannon456
07-11-2008, 03:06 PM
Let me ask you a question? How do you win games? If you score 0 you think your going to win? No, RBIs is what makes teams win and when your the 2nd best at helping your team score runs and put yourself in position to win then you should be an all-star. SLG%, who cares, that percentage means nothing, the actual hitting of a homerun is what counts. Percentages sometimes are good but when it comes to actually hitting homeruns which is what counts, sometimes fans overanalyze some stats. Scoring is what counts and Ryan Howard does that more then most other players in the league.



but that doesnt mean RBIs determine how good someone is... i mean theoretically a player can have 20 great games 5rbis a game! have 100+ rbis and suck for the other 142.


now im not saying howard sucks, and im not saying thats whats happening. but thats my thought on rbis

on to howard. hes a good player. but the first base position is deep. simple as that, carlos delgado has been on a tear for a week and a half too why the **** isnt he an allstar!

the allstar game is very important. it decides the homefield advantage. why would you want a lumbering oaf out there at first when you can get better offensive numbers from a guy 10x more skilled on offense... the truth is there are 4 or 5 first basemen i would rather see at the plate with something as important as that on the line, and about 10 id rather see on the field lol

dcannon456
07-11-2008, 03:08 PM
but that doesnt mean RBIs determine how good someone is... i mean theoretically a player can have 20 great games 5rbis a game! have 100+ rbis and suck for the other 142.


now im not saying howard sucks, and im not saying thats whats happening. but thats my thought on rbis

on to howard. hes a good player. but the first base position is deep. simple as that, carlos delgado has been on a tear for a week and a half too why the **** isnt he an allstar!

the allstar game is very important. it decides the homefield advantage. why would you want a lumbering oaf out there at first when you can get better offensive numbers from a guy 10x more skilled on offense... the truth is there are 4 or 5 first basemen i would rather see at the plate with something as important as that on the line, and about 10 id rather see on the field lol



and by the way, homeruns are even less important than RBIS % stats are what guage a players ability, not bull**** counting stats.



edit:oops quoted myself, ohwell

07MVPPatBurrell
07-11-2008, 03:09 PM
the NL All Star team is garbage this year... thats what happens when an idiot manages the team (COL)

Brosiff
07-11-2008, 03:28 PM
IF alot of people did not vote in Howard, and a part of it is because the phils field is so small, then why didnt Cole Hamels get in?? The small field does the exact opposite to him. Most of his runs are given up on crappy short HR's.

m26555
07-11-2008, 03:29 PM
Clutch doesn't exist. Ryan's Win Shares were horrible before yesterday, his WSP is horrendous, and his WSAB is horrible even after yesterday.
Anyone who doesn't think clutch exists needs to get their head checked. IT EXISTS PEOPLE, and it's FAR more important than stat geek numbers like SLG%, OPS, etc. etc. etc.

Note: I don't think Howard should have gotten in, but when people say things like that it just irks me. See A-Rod in the postseason for proof that clutch (and choking) exists.

m26555
07-11-2008, 03:30 PM
Oh, and the biggest snub in the NL is Carlos Lee. I can't believe no one else sees this.

JHG722
07-11-2008, 03:34 PM
Anyone who doesn't think clutch exists needs to get their head checked. IT EXISTS PEOPLE, and it's FAR more important than stat geek numbers like SLG%, OPS, etc. etc. etc.

Note: I don't think Howard should have gotten in, but when people say things like that it just irks me. See A-Rod in the postseason for proof that clutch (and choking) exists.

http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2005/04/my-take-on-clutch-hitting/

Clutch does NOT exist.

McJoe
07-11-2008, 03:56 PM
everyone can say whatever they want about OPS and average and so on but i am absolutely SHOCKED that the home run and rbi leader from the national league is not in the game...Pujols and Berkman deserve to be there 2 but under the current circumstances there should be three

PSD is in love with batting lines and stuff but no one is gonna argue that the average fan isnt reading homers and rbis and leaving it at that. and for that reason i am absolutely shocked that Howard was snubbed and yes hes a snub because in the mind of the average fan he is putting up a much better season than both Pujols and Berkman and you all know it

ThisIsTheYear
07-11-2008, 04:13 PM
If anyone was a snub in the NL it was Carlos Lee. Howard doesn't deserve it, plain and simple.

L-MiLLZ44
07-11-2008, 04:16 PM
ryan howard should be in the homerun derby, cole hamels was snubbed

zambo4president
07-11-2008, 04:51 PM
pujols berkman and lee are all much more qualified than ryan howard

Liney3506
07-11-2008, 04:54 PM
Hamels AND Burrell were snubbed.

Burrell's OPS is .100 higher than Lee's, and .096 higher than Wright's. More HR's, and he carried this team while Howard's sucking, Utley's had his slump as of late, and Rollins isn't playing like Rollins.

cambovenzi
07-11-2008, 05:41 PM
howard wasnt snubbed.
hes not a top 5 1Bman in the NL this year.

PhillySportFan
07-11-2008, 05:55 PM
I understand why people are saying he doesn't deserve it but like I said before the first player since 1948 that hasn't made the all-star team that lead his league in RBIs and HRs. He could possibly be the MVP again, you can't say thats not possible with his numbers, if he can increase his average somewhat which he'll probably do. He could win the MVP at that rate.

PhillySportFan
07-11-2008, 05:58 PM
howard wasnt snubbed.
hes not a top 5 1Bman in the NL this year.

How is the guy leading the MLB in homeruns and RBIs in the NL, not one of the top firstbase men in that league. What is wrong with you people!!!!! lol..

-Lavigne43-
07-11-2008, 06:04 PM
1B in the NL more deserving then Howard

Lance Berkman
Albert Pujols
Adrian Gonzalez
Derrek Lee
Mark Teixeira
Conor Jackson
Prince Fielder
James Loney
Arguably Joey Votto

McJoe
07-11-2008, 06:04 PM
howard wasnt snubbed.
hes not a top 5 1Bman in the NL this year.

name 3 first basemen with better numbers than Howard let alone 5 or more...name 3...you cant

Howard leads the league in the 2 most important power hitter categories becuase he has been healthy and he should be in the game because of it

jetsfan28
07-11-2008, 06:26 PM
Why are people suddenly on Lee's dick when Wright and Burrell have both done better?

Lady's Man
07-11-2008, 06:34 PM
I understand why people are saying he doesn't deserve it but like I said before the first player since 1948 that hasn't made the all-star team that lead his league in RBIs and HRs. He could possibly be the MVP again, you can't say thats not possible with his numbers, if he can increase his average somewhat which he'll probably do. He could win the MVP at that rate.

ok genius, tell the last time a player with a .234 batting average made the all-star team.....

tomno00
07-11-2008, 06:40 PM
how is this even debatable? the guy is hitting .234 with 125 strikeouts, not to mention his defense is questionable... So he hits a lot of home runs... then put him in the derby. An all-star should be considered an all around good player, not a one-dimensional one.

SeoulBeatz
07-11-2008, 06:44 PM
as a phillies fan,

no he does not deserve to make it, not this year.

burrell and hamels were much more deserving

but i think we can all agree that if Jason Varitek could make it... welllll i guess Howard should be given a chance too lmao

SeoulBeatz
07-11-2008, 06:45 PM
ok genius, tell the last time a player with a .234 batting average made the all-star team.....

jason varitek. oh wait no he's hitting .217

jesus christ redsox nation could u guys be more homerish?

cubs92
07-11-2008, 06:48 PM
its pretty obvious why howards not an all star. hes hitting .230, is on pace to break his own record in strikeouts, he struggles a lot in the clutch this year, and his fielding is a joke. im a cubs fan but live in the philadelphia area and see a lot of the phillies games. his fielding and unclutch hitting has cost the phils a good number of games. not to mention ahead of him are berkman and pujols, not to mention other guys who didnt make it such as derrek lee.

-Lavigne43-
07-11-2008, 06:52 PM
jason varitek. oh wait no he's hitting .217

jesus christ redsox nation could u guys be more homerish?

The players voted him in. At least he is a catcher not a 1b

PhillyUD26
07-11-2008, 06:55 PM
its pretty obvious why howards not an all star. hes hitting .230, is on pace to break his own record in strikeouts, he struggles a lot in the clutch this year, and his fielding is a joke. im a cubs fan but live in the philadelphia area and see a lot of the phillies games. his fielding and unclutch hitting has cost the phils a good number of games. not to mention ahead of him are berkman and pujols, not to mention other guys who didnt make it such as derrek lee.

Stop with this clutch-unclutch hitting talk. Its all a freaking myth. If he's so "unclutch" then why is he leading the league in RBI's??

And his defense isn't as bad as people make it out to be, he's made some very good plays this year, and he moves pretty well for being such a big guy. He won't ever win a gold glove in his career, but he's not that big of a liability.

Lady's Man
07-11-2008, 06:55 PM
jason varitek. oh wait no he's hitting .217

jesus christ redsox nation could u guys be more homerish?


hell nah son i be repin da A..... the dirty dirty........ better watch out for the A train in the second half b/c we be destroyin ******.. The braves son, we gonna be holdin up dat trophey in october.

mattz1212
07-11-2008, 07:12 PM
everyone can say whatever they want about OPS and average and so on but i am absolutely SHOCKED that the home run and rbi leader from the national league is not in the game...Pujols and Berkman deserve to be there 2 but under the current circumstances there should be three

PSD is in love with batting lines and stuff but no one is gonna argue that the average fan isnt reading homers and rbis and leaving it at that. and for that reason i am absolutely shocked that Howard was snubbed and yes hes a snub because in the mind of the average fan he is putting up a much better season than both Pujols and Berkman and you all know it

Goes against the fact that he was voted behind both though.

I kind of agree with the rest of this though, people on here need to realize how much of the baseball fanbase is casual and puts the majority of weight into the triple crown catagories, as idiotic as it may be. On the other side, if you are going to make a thread like this on a board full of more informed fans be prepared to be torn apart by more logical and in depth analysis. Once you cross over into this terrority your world of RBIs, BA, and clutch die and they are replaced by OBP, SLG, and OPS+.

Anyway, the simple fact is there are more deserving 1B (A decent list) that didn't get in along with Howard. I actually think putting him in the top 5 may be rather generous.

cubs92
07-11-2008, 07:17 PM
Stop with this clutch-unclutch hitting talk. Its all a freaking myth. If he's so "unclutch" then why is he leading the league in RBI's??
And his defense isn't as bad as people make it out to be, he's made some very good plays this year, and he moves pretty well for being such a big guy. He won't ever win a gold glove in his career, but he's not that big of a liability.

because of the homeruns. they go hand in hand. almost all of his rbis are from the homerun. and hes a pretty terrible fielder. hes quite a liability, as i have seen him cost the phils more than a few games.

OHMYLORD
07-11-2008, 07:24 PM
WTF?? Yeah I'm a Philadelphia fan, and so what... Me and my homie (who's also an avid Phillies fan) had this same discussion yesterday... And while we both agree that Howard has more opposition due to his position, and he does strike out a lot, AND the fact that Burrell may be a LOT worse in terms of snubs(because Fukudome, in NO way, deserves a spot over him. Soriano got in due to name recognition)... Burrell should not only be on the team, he should be STARTING.

Back to Howard. There is NO WAY THAT YOU CAN JUSTIFY LEAVING BOTH THE HR AND RBI LEADER OUT OF THE ALL STAR GAME, ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS THE SAME PERSON. Point BLANK. You can say "Oh, Pujols and Berkman are doing this or that," but I could have SWORN that the All-Star game is based on individual achievement, and while Pujols and Berkman have better OPS, batting averages and less strikeouts, neither puts runs on the board like Ryan Howard, evidenced in his leading the majors in both HR's and RBI's.

I don't care if he strikes out a MILLION times. With his numbers, he should be on the team. Hell, if he had the same batting averages as Pujols or Berkman, there'd be an even BIGGER gap between them in terms of production. The Phillies were screwed in this all-star game. Period.



RBI's for one is a number based on oppurtunity. If he was on a different team like lets say the padres or something he probably would be lucky to have 40.

Home Runs Not only does he play in a very nice hitters park but just because you can hit homeruns doesn't mean you belong in the all star game, he more deserves to be in the home run derby.

.240 batting average is terrible and OPS is bad.. his obp is probably just just over 300 as well. Theres much better 1b out there like how about Pujols whos batting 360 with power and a lot of rbi's and walks that was even out a few weeks.

Your just a biast fan and you have no idea what you're talking about. Ryan Howard is a good player but all star players shouldn't have a 240 batting average that would be a "disgrace"

PhillySportFan
07-11-2008, 07:49 PM
1B in the NL more deserving then Howard

Lance Berkman
Albert Pujols
Adrian Gonzalez
Derrek Lee
Mark Teixeira
Conor Jackson
Prince Fielder
James Loney
Arguably Joey Votto

LMAO, you must be kidding me. I just signed up on this forum today and wow, bunch of noobs. lol..

the_watcher
07-11-2008, 08:02 PM
How does that first statement make any sense? You wouldn't say Howard doesn't deserve to be in it but there are other first basemen having better seasons? Are you in politics? Because there are better 1b out there he doesn't deserve to be in it plain and simple.


I agree that Fook and Sori dont belong but to say that Wright is the best 3rd basemen in the NL right now is a stretch. Its Chipper Jones. And dont act like the mets fans haven't done that kind of thing in the past when they were in first. Fact is the cubs are the best team in the NL does that mean they should have the most all stars no but to say that Wright is better than Aramis, when their numbers are very similar offensively and aramis is better defensively is homerish. To say he is a snub is a large stretch. I'd put it more at he was straddling the fence.

Wow... the Cubs fan who thinks Aramis is better than Wright calls me homerish. lol when I'm not even a mets fan. Anyway I'm not gonna get into a stupid arguement with you that involves insults. To go the politics route... now thats just low. I didn't even say anything about Aramis being in it. I've got no problem with him being in it. He should be there.

As far as the first statement I made... you clearly just misunderstood my point. You almost took it too personally. IMO Howard is worthy of a spot... but there's no room for him. To just say that he flat out doesnt deserve to be there is a little to the extreme. I'm not even saying he got snubbed.

This is the problem with fans being able to vote for all-stars. If you're going to have this game determine who has home field advantage in the world series then the players and Managers need to be the ones who decide who plays in the game.

Seems like your a little bitter. Or maybe not. I dont know you. I was just voicing my opinion. No need to get all bent out of shape about it.

By the way... Wright got in to replace Soriano, so justice was served.

OHMYLORD
07-11-2008, 08:12 PM
LMAO, you must be kidding me. I just signed up on this forum today and wow, bunch of noobs. lol..

sorry that you don't want to admit it.. but i dont agree with all of the people on his list was 75% of them.. stop being a biast fan.

Ryan Howard isn't qualified ... AT ALL this year

mattz1212
07-11-2008, 08:13 PM
LMAO, you must be kidding me. I just signed up on this forum today and wow, bunch of noobs. lol..

Well I included stat lines for you, since you've already been told how unimportant HRs and especially RBIs are, please justify yourself in a reasonable manner. Otherwise I'll just continue to consider your argument homerish rambling with no basis. And since you might need it let me define SLG% for you, it takes TOTAL bases into account basically meaning HR's mean 4, 3B means 3, 2B means 2, singles mean 1. It does, for the most part, properly take HRs into account. Again if you want to keep living in your mystical world of clutch go right ahead, we'll be waiting for you in the real world. It's funny how you call us a bunch of noobs when we are basing our argument on ALL of a player's stats while you are basing your argument on 2.



1B in the NL more deserving then Howard

Lance Berkman .348/.445/.661 190 OPS+ 70 RBI 14 SB 76 R
Albert Pujols .348/.467/.612 185 OPS+ 49 RBI 45 R
Adrian Gonzalez .279/.348/.510 133 OPS+ 70 RBI 54 R
Derrek Lee .304/.370/.509 127 OPS+ 55 RBI 5 SB 61 R
Mark Teixeira .272/.378/.488 131 OPS+ 67 RBI 51 R
Conor Jackson .302/.390/.462 120 OPS+ 46 RBI 49 R
Prince Fielder .269/.352/.484 118 OPS+ 50 RBI 51 R
James Loney .299/.357/.456 111 OPS+ 48 RBI 42 R
Arguably Joey Votto .284/.354/.475 114 OPS+ 40 RBI 38 R

Ryan Howard .234/.325/.510 113 OPS+ 83 RBI 59 R

Even just for your sake I included the stats not included in OPS, but I forewarn you base an argument off of them and people will not react well because you are pretty much saying Howard deserves to be an All Star because of the lineup around him. Now I am NOT saying all of these players deserve to be All Stars over Howard, but you'd be looking past stats if you said the majority didn't deserve to be. Go ahead convince me, there are the numbers and quite honestly they are stacked up against you.

H-MYK
07-11-2008, 08:17 PM
His batting average and On-Base percentage aren't that great, he had a slow start. Him having over 70 RBIs is pretty good, but there's more to being an all-star than just the RBIs.

Arsenal17
07-11-2008, 09:11 PM
Im a Phillies fan. Howard didnt deserve it this year. His average has hovered around .210 for most of the year and will kill his own record for strikeouts in a year and his defense is not up to par. That being said he has gotten hot and leads the league in HRs and RBIs. All jokes aside I would trade him while hes hot in a blockbuster deal for a future all star pitcher. I dont have any names in mind but they would have to be good. Good as in future all star/ace. Howards salary will continue to grow after this year with the HR and RBI stats and we will look to move him within the next couple of years anyway

PhillySportFan
07-11-2008, 09:15 PM
Eh, w/e, not going to convince you all otherwise, you all just overanalyze stats, HRs and RBIs are major stats whether you think so or not. Also another thing is he's hitting like .350 with guys in scoring position even with that .235 average. You can believe what you want to believe, I'll do the same.

phillyphan4ever
07-11-2008, 09:18 PM
Rape.

07MVPPatBurrell
07-11-2008, 09:42 PM
Rape.

well said...

people who say RBI don't matter.... what wins games? runs or hits? the Dodgers won a game this year without any hits. Angels had 5-6 hits, but no RBIs... thus no runs and no win.

awesomeovie8
07-11-2008, 10:13 PM
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2005/04/my-take-on-clutch-hitting/

Clutch does NOT exist.

Clutch always exists, thats what makes sports, thats why there is a profession in sports psych.

SellThePhillies
07-11-2008, 11:46 PM
If only Howard could hit with men on base during every at bat...

Runners on- .288/.388/.595 (.983 OPS)
Runners in Scoring Position- .330/.444/.635 (1.079 OPS)

He is an absolute superstar with men on base.

However with the bases empty his stats take a ridiculous nosedive

Bases Empty- .180/.259/.427

With the bases empty the Phils would better off having Harry Kalas bat.

Howard is heating up right now and his stats are creeping back closer to his career average. In his three seasons he's had his best months in August and September. His post All Star break OPS is 177 points higher than his pre All Star Break OPS. Maybe he won't make a lot of All Star teams but the man can and will produce, just not as consistently as we'd like him too.

Also jut realized Rollins', Victorino's and Utley's OBP are down from last season yet Howard still has a ton of RBIs. Utley's is way down from .410 last year to .373, still good but down. If those guys improve as the season goes on Howard's unimportant RBI totals will he huge at the end of the year, maybe 150. Maybe he'll hit .255 have 45-50 HRS 140-150 RBIs. If the Phils win the division he's got a shot at another MVP. MVP voters tend to be infatuated with HRs and RBIs.

awesomeovie8
07-12-2008, 02:32 AM
good post, thanks for helping show clutch happens and matters

dmb
07-12-2008, 02:52 AM
Ryan Howard, Prince Fielder, and Adam Dunn all have one thing in common...


1. Fat and belong in the AL as DHs as they play horrible on the field

thewupk
07-12-2008, 05:50 AM
Wow... the Cubs fan who thinks Aramis is better than Wright calls me homerish. lol when I'm not even a mets fan. Anyway I'm not gonna get into a stupid arguement with you that involves insults. To go the politics route... now thats just low. I didn't even say anything about Aramis being in it. I've got no problem with him being in it. He should be there.


while the majority of the all-star voting was going on Aramis was the 2nd best 3B in the NL.

thewupk
07-12-2008, 05:52 AM
good post, thanks for helping show clutch happens and matters

actually numbers with RISP from year to year are a fluke. Indeed the reason he has so many rbi is that he gets a lot of abs with runners on and he's hitting well in those situations. But hitting much better than your actual stat line is not something a player can continually do. Over time a players career numbers with RISP will be very similar to their actual career numbers. Just the way it is.

SticklerOfRules
07-12-2008, 08:37 AM
How is the guy leading the MLB in homeruns and RBIs in the NL, not one of the top firstbase men in that league. What is wrong with you people!!!!! lol..

If only those where the only two stats to judge a player:rolleyes:

Knowledge
07-12-2008, 08:59 AM
He isnt a all star because he stated too slow, but he does a chance to be MVP. He does this almost every year, its just this year he started even slower than normal. The we first called him up he started slow hitting like .188 and the finished .288 i believe.

Great/Elite player, Historic power numbers, not a all star this year.

bartoron
07-12-2008, 09:00 AM
1B in the NL more deserving then Howard

Lance Berkman
Albert Pujols
Adrian Gonzalez
Derrek Lee
Mark Teixeira
Conor Jackson
Prince Fielder
James Loney
Arguably Joey Votto

...

Conor Jackson? James Loney? Joey Votto? Look, I realize that Howard's batting average is pretty bad, but even if his power numbers are inflated, he's still leading the National League in RBI's and leading the Majors in HR's. I'm not saying that he deserves to be on the All-Star team (because Berkman, Pujols, and Gonzalez all deserve it more), but placing that many people above him (especially when some of them are fairly mediocre) is just rediculous.

redbird89
07-12-2008, 12:37 PM
There are a few great NL 1st basemen this year.

Albert Pujols didn't get voted in, though he is there because Clint Hurdle picked him.

rriders9
07-13-2008, 12:28 AM
Pujols, Berkman, and Gonzalez would be ahead of Howard.

Gigantes4Life
07-13-2008, 12:43 AM
He's really on the same field as a few other guys like Fielder and Votto.

If you changed the title to Burrell all would be good :pity:

dcannon456
07-13-2008, 01:03 AM
everyone can say whatever they want about OPS and average and so on but i am absolutely SHOCKED that the home run and rbi leader from the national league is not in the game...Pujols and Berkman deserve to be there 2 but under the current circumstances there should be three

PSD is in love with batting lines and stuff but no one is gonna argue that the average fan isnt reading homers and rbis and leaving it at that. and for that reason i am absolutely shocked that Howard was snubbed and yes hes a snub because in the mind of the average fan he is putting up a much better season than both Pujols and Berkman and you all know it

so now your calling the average fan stupid?!?!




the average fan you are refering too, or not really that big of a fan, also doesnt take his time to go online and vote. and if he doesnt, he doesnt stuff the ballot with hundreds of votes. which by the way is why the fan voting is simply ********.

nickymintz
07-13-2008, 03:09 PM
I find it redicilous that Carlos Lee and Ryan Howard aren't on the all star team.
Ryan Howard 28 HR's (1st in NL), 84 RBI's (1st in NL) and he is tenth in total bases

Carlos Lee batting .300, 21 HR's (11th in NL), 75 RBI's (2nd in NL), .548 slg % (10th in NL), 194 total bases (6th in league) , 10th in NL in hits

Rediculous that neither of them made it

JHG722
07-13-2008, 03:11 PM
Howard didn't deserve to be on the team. Period.

IndiansFan337
07-13-2008, 03:27 PM
everyone can say whatever they want about OPS and average and so on but i am absolutely SHOCKED that the home run and rbi leader from the national league is not in the game...Pujols and Berkman deserve to be there 2 but under the current circumstances there should be three

PSD is in love with batting lines and stuff but no one is gonna argue that the average fan isnt reading homers and rbis and leaving it at that. and for that reason i am absolutely shocked that Howard was snubbed and yes hes a snub because in the mind of the average fan he is putting up a much better season than both Pujols and Berkman and you all know it

I find it redicilous that Carlos Lee and Ryan Howard aren't on the all star team.
Ryan Howard 28 HR's (1st in NL), 84 RBI's (1st in NL) and he is tenth in total bases

Carlos Lee batting .300, 21 HR's (11th in NL), 75 RBI's (2nd in NL), .548 slg % (10th in NL), 194 total bases (6th in league) , 10th in NL in hits

Rediculous that neither of them made it
Howard has been padding his stats bigtime since the team was named. he wasn't the ML HR leader when the rosters were announced, let alone voted on.

Lee & Burrell are much bigger snubs than Howard. Also, there are so many other 1B who should be there over Howard so there's no way to justify him being on the roster over Pujols, Berkman or Gonzalez. Lee & Burrell got hurt by the fact that two lesser Cubs were voted in as two of the starting OF'ers (Soriano & Fukudome), although one is out with an injury. Surely, Burrell & Lee are more deserving of spots in this year's ASG, but the fans voted them in. So there's no way around that.

cambovenzi
07-13-2008, 03:34 PM
I find it redicilous that Carlos Lee and Ryan Howard aren't on the all star team.
Ryan Howard 28 HR's (1st in NL), 84 RBI's (1st in NL) and he is tenth in total bases

Carlos Lee batting .300, 21 HR's (11th in NL), 75 RBI's (2nd in NL), .548 slg % (10th in NL), 194 total bases (6th in league) , 10th in NL in hits

Rediculous that neither of them made it

who should they go in over?

berkman, gonzalez, and Pujols very easily deserved it over howard.

ludwick, mclouth, and holliday had better OPS' than lee.
there are other OF options i would rather have than lee.
pat burrell, jason bay.

-Lavigne43-
07-13-2008, 05:45 PM
...

Conor Jackson? James Loney? Joey Votto? Look, I realize that Howard's batting average is pretty bad, but even if his power numbers are inflated, he's still leading the National League in RBI's and leading the Majors in HR's. I'm not saying that he deserves to be on the All-Star team (because Berkman, Pujols, and Gonzalez all deserve it more), but placing that many people above him (especially when some of them are fairly mediocre) is just rediculous.

They all have better OPS+'s and VORP then him. I could care less about how many RBI's he has. Look at the players hitting around him.

Giants4Tniners
07-13-2008, 07:21 PM
I'm really surprised so many people think he got hosed, Hes putting up Dave Kingman type numbers, He doesnt deserve to be there this year.