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TheLogical
07-11-2008, 02:52 AM
Please add more :),

Catcher: Johnny Bench
1st Base: Lou Gehrig**
2nd Base: Rogers Hornsby**
Shortstop: Cal Ripken Jr.
3rd Baseman: Brooks Robinson
Pitcher: Nolan Ryan
Leftfield: Hank Aaron
Centerfield: Joe DiMaggio**
Rightfield: Babe Ruth**

DH: David Ortiz*
DH: Frank Thomas*

Pitcher Rotation:

Bob Gibson
Cy Young**
Pedro Martinez*
Sandy Koufax
Roger Clemens
Walter Johnson**

Relievers:

Eric Gagne*
Mariano Rivera*
Dennis Eckersley
Goose Gossage
Rolley Fingers
Trevor Hoffman*

Bench:

Jimmy Foxx
Al Kaline
Barry Bonds*
Ty Cobb**
Mickey Mantle**
Willy Mays
Jackie Robinson**
Derek Jeter*
Josh Gibson***
Mike Lowell*
Alex Rodriguez*

*Active
**Deceased
***Never was in MLB

abe_froman
07-11-2008, 02:56 AM
i like the guy but how does ortiz make the historic team,and why isn't mays in the outfield??

btw you have a couple people out of position(like banks)...unless you just trying to cram people on there

kevin98189
07-11-2008, 02:57 AM
i like the guy but how does ortiz make the historic team??

red sox fan.... lol what about barry bonds?

jmtapia
07-11-2008, 03:00 AM
id start barry bonds over DiMaggio....Barry has to be in there.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-11-2008, 03:31 AM
How is Willie Mays not starting? Greatest player of all time.

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 03:32 AM
Jeter as the best SS of all time?

HA.

freedas
07-11-2008, 03:50 AM
Please add more :),

Catcher: Johnny Bench
1st Base: Lou Gehrig**
2nd Base: Ernie Banks
Shortstop: Derek Jeter*
3rd Baseman: Alex Rodriguez*
Pitcher: Nolan Ryan
Leftfield: Hank Aaron
Centerfield: Joe DiMaggio**
Rightfield: Babe Ruth**
DH: David Ortiz*

Pitcher Rotation:

Bob Gibson
Cy Young**
Pedro Martinez*
Sandy Koufax
Roger Clemens

Relievers:

Eric Gagne*
Mariano Rivera*
Dennis Eckersley
Goose Gossage
Rolley Fingers
Trevor Hoffman*

Bench:

Jimmy Foxx
Al Kaline
Barry Bonds*
Ty Cobb**
Mickey Mantle**
Willy Mays
Kirby Puckett**
Jackie Robinson**

*Active
**Deceased

you gotta have willie mays in at center ruth at dh jackie at second i would put bonds in at left hank in right, good pitching thoug except for pedro.
josh gibson real homerun champ

viktor06
07-11-2008, 04:04 AM
I'd put Arod at SS and Mike Schmidt at 3B

sacgiants1213
07-11-2008, 04:06 AM
they just did this on bdssp last nite.....

ShinobiNYC
07-11-2008, 04:06 AM
good pitching thoug except for pedro.


:speechless::mad::horse::crazy::down::bang::no::gu ns::injury::puke:

viktor06
07-11-2008, 04:11 AM
you gotta have willie mays in at center ruth at dh jackie at second i would put bonds in at left hank in right, good pitching thoug except for pedro.
josh gibson real homerun champ

You mean the guy that has 3 Cy Youngs in the age of steroids, a career 2.81ERA and who has done it all on mangu and eggs?

bagwell368
07-11-2008, 08:01 AM
Doing a list like this will never make everyone happy.

#1 Banks is not a 2B, try Joe Morgan
#2 Jeter is not the best SS, try AROD, Ripken, Banks, etc.
#3 Schmidt is still better at 3rd then AROD
#4 DiMaggio is no match for Mays, Mantle, or Cobb, he's not even good enough for the bench - and he was plenty good.
#5 About 115 of CY Young's wins were when pitching from 50' from the plate and should be disallowed. Walter Johnson was far greater. Young is similar to Ryan or Pete Rose in terms of sheer longevity, and also similar in terms of a LOT of players being a lot better.
#6 If your team had 75 guys on it there might be room for Kirby Puckett, get him off.
#7 Petey is fine IMO, the greatest ERA+ pitcher of all time, no problem. Still Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux might be considered for your list. Lefty Grove as well.
#8 Ortiz fails to meet any decent minimum amount of time played. How about Frank Thomas?
#9 No room for Ted Williams, a greater hitter then Aaron?
#10 No room for Bonds? a greater player then almost anyone, even before the HGH and juice?

76YazwSideburns
07-11-2008, 09:18 AM
You left that skinny kid from the PCL off your team - Williams is it? Don't know but I've heard tell he's the greatest hitter of all time. (Put him on your bench).

Nolan Ryan as your pitcher - why bother with a lifetime .500 pitcher when guys like Lefty Grove (the greatest lefty ever) and Big Train Johnson (greatest righty ever) are not on the team?

I might be inclined to take Rogers Hornsby as my second baseman - perhaps the best right handed hitter ever.

eyememine
07-11-2008, 09:51 AM
Walter Johnson, Stan Musial, Honus Wagner, Roger Hornsby, Tony Gwynn (who was considered the best hitter since Ted Williams), Rickey Henderson, Sandy Koufax. So many dudes that didnt even get a mention that could be the greatest at their position (except Gwynn, noone can beat Ruth)

Knicks845
07-11-2008, 10:40 AM
red sox fan.... lol what about barry bonds?

He's coming off the bench, like he should.

bagwell368
07-11-2008, 11:05 AM
Tony Gwynn (who was considered the best hitter since Ted Williams)

Very very few consider Gwynn the best hitter since Ted unless you are just talking BA, and nobody is ill-informed enough to talk BA anymore with SLG, OBP, OPS+, etc. available. Gwynn doesn't crack the top 3 RF'ers: Ruth, Aaron, and FRob. I think you could easily argue Ott, Jackson, Clemente, Kaline, Winfield, Waner and Rose are as good or better, but the fact is, with even a three deep bench, there is no room for Gwynn.

bagwell368
07-11-2008, 11:08 AM
I might be inclined to take Rogers Hornsby as my second baseman - perhaps the best right handed hitter ever.

I have Hornsby as the 3rd best 2nd baseman after Morgan and Collins. Hornsby is probably one of the 5 biggest jerks in baseball history. No thanks.

Agree 100% on Ryan, he might make the 6th best 5 man rotation in baseball history - maybe.

JakeDelbreezy
07-11-2008, 12:24 PM
Tried to compose a 25 man team that would resemble a real Major League team as far as so many guys at each postion and roles like a speed guy off the bench, a left handed bat, a backup catch etc.. (26 guys really I fudged due to the inclusion of a DH)

Catcher Johnny Bench (.267 avg, 389 HR's, 1,376 rbi's, 2,048 hits)
1st Lou Gehrig (.340 avg, 493 HR's, 1,995 rbis, 2,721 hits)
2nd Ernie Banks (.274 avg, 512 HR's, 1,636 rbi's, 2,583 hits)
Short Cal Ripken Jr (.276 avg, 431 HR's, 1,695 rbi's, 3,184 hits)
3rd Alex Rodriguez (.306 avg, 536 HR's, 1,553 rbi's, 2,333 hits) ** stats as of 07/11/08
LF Henry Aaron (.305 avg, 755 HR's, 2,297 rbi's, 3,771 hits)
CF Willie Mays (.302 avg, 660 HR's, 1,903 rbi's, 3,283 hits)
RF Ted Williams (.344 avg, 521 HR's, 1,839 rbi's, 2,654 hits)
DH Babe Ruth (.342 avg, 714 HR's, 2,213 rbi's, 2,873 hits)

Starters
Bob Gibson (251 W, 174 L, 2.91 ERA, 3,117 K's)
Sandy Koufax (165 W, 87 L, 2.76 ERA, 2,396 K's)
Roger Clemens (354 W, 184 L, 3.12 ERA, 4,672 K's)
Walter Johnson (417 W, 279 L, 2.17 ERA, 3,508 K's)
Nolan Ryan (324 W, 292 L, 3.19 ERA, 5,714 K's)

Bullpen
Closer Mariano Rivera (66 W, 47 L, 2.30 ERA, 907 K's, 466 saves) ** stats as of 07/11/08
Set up man Dennis Eckersley (197 W, 171 L, 3.50 ERA, 2,401 K's, 390 saves)
Middle Reliever Bruce Sutter (68 W, 71 L, 2.83 ERA, 861 K's, 300 saves)
Middle Reliever Rollie Fingers (114 W, 118 L, 2.90 ERA, 1,299 K's, 341 Saves)
Middle Reliever Trevor Hoffman (54 W, 65 L, 2.80 ERA, 1,041 K's, 540 saves) ** stats as of 07/11/08
Lefty specialist Billy Wagner (39 W, 37 L, 2.41 ERA, 1,056 K's, 378 saves) ** stats as of 07/11/08
Spot starter/long reliever John Smoltz (210 W, 147 L, 3.26 ERA, 3,011 K's, 154 saves) ** stats as of 07/11/08

Bench
Catcher Ivan Rodriguez (.302 avg, 292 HR's, 1,211 rbi's, 2,572 hits) ** stats as of 07/11/08
Corner infielder Mike Schmidt (.267 avg, 548 HR's, 1,595 rbi's, 2,234 hits)
middle infielder Joe Morgan (.271 avg, 268 HR's, 1,133 rbi's, 2,517 hits)
OF Barry Bonds (.298 avg, 762 HR's, 1,996 rbi's, 2,935 hits)
OF Mickey Mantle (.298 avg, 536 HR's, 1,509 rbi's, 2,415 hits)

SHONIE
07-11-2008, 12:51 PM
why is mays on the bench?

CAIN=FUTURE
07-11-2008, 12:54 PM
C: Johny Bench
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Jackie Robinson
3B: Eddie Matthews
SS: Honus Wagner
LF: Barry Bonds
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Hank Aaron
DH: Babe Ruth

Lineup:

1. Honus Wagner
2. Jackie Robinson
3. Baba Ruth
4. Barry Bonds
5. Willie Mays
6. Hank Aaron
7. Lou Gehrig
8. Eddie Mathews
9. Johnny Bench

chicagofan71
07-11-2008, 12:57 PM
Please add more :),

Catcher: Johnny Bench
1st Base: Lou Gehrig**
2nd Base: Ernie Banks
Shortstop: Derek Jeter*
3rd Baseman: Alex Rodriguez*
Pitcher: Nolan Ryan
Leftfield: Hank Aaron
Centerfield: Joe DiMaggio**
Rightfield: Babe Ruth**
DH: David Ortiz*

Pitcher Rotation:

Bob Gibson
Cy Young**
Pedro Martinez*
Sandy Koufax
Roger Clemens

Relievers:

Eric Gagne*
Mariano Rivera*
Dennis Eckersley
Goose Gossage
Rolley Fingers
Trevor Hoffman*

Bench:

Jimmy Foxx
Al Kaline
Barry Bonds*
Ty Cobb**
Mickey Mantle**
Willy Mays
Kirby Puckett**
Jackie Robinson**

*Active
**Deceased

Josh Gibson>Johnny Bench

76YazwSideburns
07-11-2008, 02:16 PM
I have Hornsby as the 3rd best 2nd baseman after Morgan and Collins. Hornsby is probably one of the 5 biggest jerks in baseball history. No thanks.

Agree 100% on Ryan, he might make the 6th best 5 man rotation in baseball history - maybe.


Hornsby would be my #1 jerk (especially as a manager) he beats Cobb who actually did like the odd person - he helped DiMaggio negotiate his 1st contract with the Yankees and offered to teach Williams how to beat the shift. Hornsby just hated everyone.

His 358 career average makes him my 2nd baseman though. Also, check out his 1922 & 1925 seasons - they're a couple of the greatest seasons ever. And 2 of the best a second baseman will ever have, ever.

76YazwSideburns
07-11-2008, 02:21 PM
I'm really surprised all of you taking Nolan Ryan - I could probably name 20 pitchers I'd take ahead of him.

JakeDelbreezy
07-11-2008, 02:46 PM
Was Nolan Ryan an Average Pitcher?
Many Fans, Players and Writers Say He Was Overrated. Are They Right?
James Lincoln Ray

Ryan threw seven no-hitters, struck out more batters than anyone else in history and won 324 games. So why is he rarely acknowledged as one of the game's great pitchers?

Nolan Ryan doesn't get enough love. Or respect. For 27 seasons, Ryan plied his trade like few others in the history of baseball. He won 324 games, struck out more batters than any other pitcher in the game's history, and hurled a Major League record seven no-hitters, his last two coming at ages 43 and 44, respectively.

Ryan also had a career ERA of 3.19, which is better than Bob Lemon, Bob Feller, Steve Carlton, Don Sutton, Lefty Gomez, Tom Glavine, Randy Johnson and many, many more.

Yet his former General Manager Buzzie Bavasi called Ryan "nothing more than flashy .500 pitcher." His ex-teammate Tom Seaver said Ryan was just "a good thrower who couldn't control his pitches." Why didn't these guys, who definitely know baseball and pitching, have a better opinion of the Ryan Express?

Well, the two major criticisms of Nolan Ryan are that he had a career winning of just .526 and that he walked too many batters. And those critcisms have been repeated so often, in articles and on internet discussion boards, that it seems people are starting to ignore all of the other incredible statistics that Ryan put up.

The two criticisms, however, shouldn't detract from Ryan's remarkable accomplishments. As explained herein, his "average" yearly record was mostly the result of lousy teams who gave him almost no run support, and the many walks he surrendered are offset by the fact that Ryan gave up fewer hits per nine innings and struck out more hitters than any other pitcher in baseball history.

Nolan Ryan Often Got Almost No Run Support

If Ryan had played on, oh, say the Philadelphia Phillies during the 1970s and '80s, he would have won more than 350 games. Easily. That's because the teams he worked for gave him very little run support, and as a result, he lost a lot of games that he simply should have won.

A fine example of this was the 1987 season. While pitching for the Houston Astros, Nolan Ryan led the National League in ERA (2.76) and strikeouts (270). He also had the most strikeouts per nine innings (11.68), the least hits per nine innings (6.55), the best strikeout-to walk ratio (3.10 to 1) and the top adjusted ERA (142) in the Senior Circuit.

He must have won the Cy Young Award, right? Nope. He didn't even make the top five. Wanna know why? Because his record was 8-16.

Yes, that is correct. Ryan led the N.L. in all major pitching categories and still got only eight wins because his team so often failed to score in games when Nolan had a Quality Start (which is defined by baseball statisticians as pitching at least six innings and surrendering three or fewer earned runs).

Specifically, Ryan had seven quality starts that resulted in losses and nine more in which he received no decision. That's sixteen more wins and seven less losses that he could have gotten in that one season alone.

But it wasn't just the '87 Astros that messed up Ryan's win-loss record. Look at some of the seasons he suffered through with the California Angels.

1972 - 329 Ks, 2.28 ERA (19-16)
1973 - 363 Ks, 2.87 ERA (20-16)
1975 - 327 Ks, 3.16 ERA (17-18)
1976 - 341 Ks, 2.77 ERA (19-16)
In just those five seasons, Ryan had 49 quality starts that resulted in a loss or a no decision. If Ryan had just gotten wins in 60% of those games, he would have registered another 30 career victories (and many, many fewer losses). In other words, if Ryan had played for a decent offensive team during those five seasons, he'd have won 354 games.

And probably even more. A similar analysis of his years with the Mets, Astros and Rangers shows that Ryan, had the most-ever quality starts that did not result in a win.

The Walks

Ryan walked a lot of batters. But that did not detract from his effectivensss as a pitcher. Here's why. Firsta and foremost, Ryan gave up just 6.55 hits per nine innings, which is the best such ratio in the history of baseball. The best ever. Accordingly, his WHIP, which combines hits and walks surrendered every nine innings, was better than many current and future Hall of Famers. Lefty Gomez, Lefty Grove, Bob Feller, Tom Glavine and Steve Carlton, all of whom are usually regarded as better pitchers than Ryan, had higher WHIPs than Nolan.

Furthermore, because Ryan struck out so many batters, walks were less harmful to his game than they might have been to another pitcher. When you strike out the side, it doesn't matter if you walk two guys, so long as you don't let them score. Ryan's excellent career ERA shows that more often than not, he didn't let them score. So the problem was not walks.

The problem were the awful teams for whom he played.

Interesting article on Nolan Ryan...it also explains to an extent why I put him on my all time team...

natepro
07-11-2008, 02:56 PM
How is Willie Mays not starting? Greatest player of all time.

Well... no. Just no.


Mays: career OPS+ of 156. 0 seasons of OPS+ over 200.

Ruth: career OPS+ of 207. 10 seasons of OPS+ over 200.

Ruth owns Mays.





How on earth is Ruth's status as the greatest player ever STILL being debated in 2008? :confused:

TheLogical
07-11-2008, 04:40 PM
Switched out Banks
Im not switching Ruth over to DH because the rule wasn't implied yet, Ortiz has been to most dominating DH to date. Frank Thomas also added.

Added Lowell, he has the best 3rd baseman fielding percentage ever.

abe_froman
07-11-2008, 04:44 PM
Im putting in their actual positions and Banks is in position he switched at the last half of his career.
look that up again because i believe your thinking of 1st base that he switched to after short

bagwell368
07-11-2008, 08:13 PM
Hornsby would be my #1 jerk (especially as a manager) he beats Cobb who actually did like the odd person - he helped DiMaggio negotiate his 1st contract with the Yankees and offered to teach Williams how to beat the shift. Hornsby just hated everyone.

His 358 career average makes him my 2nd baseman though. Also, check out his 1922 & 1925 seasons - they're a couple of the greatest seasons ever. And 2 of the best a second baseman will ever have, ever.

Hornsby had 3 of the best 10 seasons by a second baseman, but Joe Morgan's best 5 are better then Hornsby's best 5. Morgan was a much better baserunner and fielder, and took a lot more walks. Eddie Collins's best 5 years were also better. Using James's win shares system. They also had more WS in their career, and neither one peed down shower drains after games, or punched people out for no reason.

bagwell368
07-11-2008, 08:23 PM
The end of the Nolan Ryan debate. I posted this a few weeks ago in "Greatest Righthander of all Time" in "Comparisons".


Quote:
Originally Posted by In_Ned_I_Trust View Post
His problem was being on mediocre teams for the majority of his career.


His problem is giving up a good deal more runs per inning then many pitcher before and after him.

There are 300 pitchers in the history of MLB with 2233 IP or more. Let's call that the floor for longevity. Ryan is 5th at 5386, which is great, but his ERA+ of 111 is very poor for a "great" pitcher. That means he was 11% better then the guys that pitched in his time and in his leagues (also park adjusted).

Walter Johnson pitched about 550 IP more, and had an ERA+ of 147 which is the range an immortal should be at. That's more then 4 times the separation from mortals then Ryan had, and he had more IP to boot. Conversation over since Johnson mastered the dead ball and live ball era.

Cy Young threw almost 2000 inning more then Ryan for a 138 ERA+. Strike two.

Gaylord Perry threw 20 innings less then Ryan for a 117 ERA+. Strike three.

Alexander threw 200 IP less for a 135 ERA+, another guy that mastered dead and live ball eras.

Clemens pitched 450 IP less for a 143 ERA+, pitched in more difficult circumstances then any pitcher named so far.

Maddux has roughly the same IP as Clemens for a 133 ERA+

What's that? strike 7?

You are right, Pedro is about done. He "only" pitched 2704 innings so far good for 184th all time. Koufax (yes a lefty) and Pedro are the opposite of Ryan - they have amazing rate stats, Ryan has SOME counting stats. They did not take the mound as much, but when they did, they were steller in a way Ryan could only attain every now and then.

Ryan is #1 in K's and #1 in BB's.

Pedro has Ryan smashed in Awards and levels of attainments:

CY Awards and Shares (5th all time)
ERA titles (5)
ERA (1st active)
WHIP (#1 all time)
K/9 IP (#3 all time)
W/L % (3rd all time)
BB+H / 9 IP (3rd all time)
K / BB ratio (3rd all time)
ERA+ of 158 (#1 all time)

The only pitcher that's even in the ballpark with Pedro on these stats is Koufax, and he's not really that close. Ryan is hopeless looked at in this way.

I go back to Koufax, and the way I place my RH SP is (I do tend to give more weight to strong rate guys over career hang around guys):

#1 Pedro
#2 Clemens

#3 Gibson
#4 Seaver
#5 Maddux
#6 Palmer

#7 Schilling
#8 Marichal
#9 Ryan
#10 Cone

If I rely on stats and go back to 1900, there are a pile more. Ryan is not that special guys - only as a take the mound flame thrower. That does NOT equal great pitcher, just entertaining theatre.

bagwell368
07-11-2008, 08:30 PM
Tried to compose a 25 man team that would resemble a real Major League team as far as so many guys at each postion and roles like a speed guy off the bench, a left handed bat, a backup catch etc.. (26 guys really I fudged due to the inclusion of a DH)

2nd Ernie Banks (.274 avg, 512 HR's, 1,636 rbi's, 2,583 hits)


He moved to 1B, not 2nd



LF Henry Aaron (.305 avg, 755 HR's, 2,297 rbi's, 3,771 hits)
RF Ted Williams (.344 avg, 521 HR's, 1,839 rbi's, 2,654 hits)


Why not play them in their more normal spots? Aaron had a better arm and better range.



Nolan Ryan (324 W, 292 L, 3.19 ERA, 5,714 K's)


I love Gibbie, he might not be quite strong enough to make the top 5 man rotation of all time, but he's in the top 12 or so, so no quibbling. I just posted a dust Nolan Ryan article, he does not belong here. He does belong in the HOF, but not here.



Corner infielder Mike Schmidt (.267 avg, 548 HR's, 1,595 rbi's, 2,234 hits)
middle infielder Joe Morgan (.271 avg, 268 HR's, 1,133 rbi's, 2,517 hits)


both of these guys start for me. BTW, why quote BA and RBI? what about OPS+



OF Mickey Mantle (.298 avg, 536 HR's, 1,509 rbi's, 2,415 hits)

I assume this is a career team? If a best 3 year or 5 year team, Mantle crushes Mays.

coltsncardsfan
07-11-2008, 09:35 PM
Although few will completely agree on this subject, I'm amazed that Ted Williams didn't make the original list, and that Stan the Man has only been mentioned once, and that no one has yet to inclued Steve Carlton.

76YazwSideburns
07-11-2008, 09:37 PM
If I were choosing a team to win me a playoff series though - Gibby and Koufax would be automatic choices......probably add Ford, Schilling and Beckett too. Rivera to close.

That's not a bad side discussion - all time post season team.

76YazwSideburns
07-11-2008, 09:38 PM
Although few will completely agree on this subject, I'm amazed that Ted Williams didn't make the original list, and that Stan the Man has only been mentioned once, and that no one has yet to inclued Steve Carlton.

I've mentioned the travesty that is William's exclusion. Musial, though, does need to be included - he's one of the best pure hitters ever.

bagwell368
07-11-2008, 11:19 PM
OK, I have criticized some choices, here is my list. Somewhat different rules.

AL 2008 rules and competition level. 25 guys to play as a team. Obnoxious and nasty people generally avoided, as are suspected juicers. I don't pick guys before 1930 (lots of reasons for that), and prefer post 1950 guys.

IF: Mantle (262 games at 1B), Morgan, Schmidt (back-up SS), AROD, Biggio (back up 2B, 3rd C, DH), Chipper (back up 3B/SS/OF/DH)

C: Bench, Campanella

OF: Ted, Aaron, Mays, Musial (back up 1B as well)

DH: Thomas

SP: Pedro, Grove, Randy, Maddux, Gibson

RP: Smoltz, Gossage, Eck, Rivera, Wagner, Hoffman, Franco

Tough omits: Clemens, Henke, Gossage, Wetteland, WJ, Alexander, Wagner, Koufax, and lots of others...

Germa_Rican
07-12-2008, 02:24 AM
One name is missing off everybody's list: ROBERTO CLEMENTE!

enf0e
07-12-2008, 05:40 AM
No Lincecum? lame.

thewupk
07-12-2008, 06:08 AM
Hornsby had 3 of the best 10 seasons by a second baseman, but Joe Morgan's best 5 are better then Hornsby's best 5. Morgan was a much better baserunner and fielder, and took a lot more walks. Eddie Collins's best 5 years were also better. Using James's win shares system. They also had more WS in their career, and neither one peed down shower drains after games, or punched people out for no reason.

Joe Morgan has a career ops+ of 132. Horsnby's is 175 and is the 5th highest all-time. Morgans best year was in 76 he had an ops+ of 187. Hornsby had 6 years better than that including 5 in a row from 1921-1925.

Morgan had 6 years with an ops+ over 140. Hornsby had 12.

bagwell368
07-12-2008, 09:22 AM
Joe Morgan has a career ops+ of 132. Horsnby's is 175 and is the 5th highest all-time. Morgans best year was in 76 he had an ops+ of 187. Hornsby had 6 years better than that including 5 in a row from 1921-1925.

Morgan had 6 years with an ops+ over 140. Hornsby had 12.

Win Shares is not the same thing as OPS+

Morgan was also a much better player in every other phase of the game. And even though he is a lame announcer, he was a great player, teammate, and leader. Hornsby was a great hitter. You like him so much, you take him.

Of course there are other issues about Hornsby. Hornsby along with Cobb, Dick Allen, and Hal Chase are probably the worst guys in the history of baseball to have on a team. He played in the weaker of the two leagues most of his career. The talent pool he played against was much lower then since 1950.

I won't take guys that have the bulk of the career before 1930, and I'm leery of everyone before 1950 - but I have to go with Grove - he won what 8 ERA titles? Gehrig was a very tough omit, but he got me Musial and more flexability on D, not such a big loss.



One name is missing off everybody's list: ROBERTO CLEMENTE!

Clemente is one of my 5 favorites of all time. I have every Topps card that Clemente appears on. He is IMO the best fielding RF of all time, but he simply cannot carry a stick compared to these other guys.



No Lincecum? lame.

All the chatter on the board about him reminds me of Eric Clapton when he was on the Bluesbreakers, and then Cream. "Eric is God" graffiti was seen all over the place. I'm afraid you should enjoy Lincecum now, because at this size with that motion, he's not going to be a big longevity guy.


I thought about Musial at 1B and Mick at RF, that might be better then the other way. Whichever works in practice.

I don't care about statues. I'm trying to build a team that can compete with today's AL rules, with players in their prime, without selfish/jerk/gambler/juicers on it, that will be a "TEAM". Even Ted Williams makes me nervous because he was self centered and immature, I figure with all the leaders and great players around him, it would drive him to be better.

My lineup could be:

Morgan 2B
Mays CF
Williams LF
Thomas DH
Aaron RF
Mantle 1B
Schmidt 3B
AROD SS
Bench C

My bench has a lefty, a switch, and two righties, so I might want to drop a bullpen guy and add another lefty bat.

thewupk
07-12-2008, 10:53 AM
Win Shares is not the same thing as OPS+

Morgan was also a much better player in every other phase of the game. And even though he is a lame announcer, he was a great player, teammate, and leader. Hornsby was a great hitter. You like him so much, you take him.


Your right that ops+ isn't the same as winshares. And according to James Object Function Hornsby is the 11th best non pitcher ever and ahead of Morgan and Collins. Of course those 2 do rank 12th and 13th.

http://members.cox.net/~harlowk22/atgwsobj.html

Havoc Wreaker
07-12-2008, 01:31 PM
Sit Ortiz, actually, take him off the team, Put Barry at DH

And also wheres Edgar Martinez aka The best DH ever

CAIN=FUTURE
07-12-2008, 01:34 PM
Sit Ortiz, actually, take him off the team, Put Barry at DH

And also wheres Edgar Martinez aka The best DH ever

Why would you put Barry at DH? Hes one of the greatest fielding LFers ever.

Havoc Wreaker
07-12-2008, 01:45 PM
Why would you put Barry at DH? Hes one of the greatest fielding LFers ever.

Because you're not gonna sit Mays Aaron or Dimaggio so just, Sit ortiz, Put Bonds at DH and thats that

JakeDelbreezy
07-12-2008, 01:54 PM
He moved to 1B, not 2nd

I just posted a dust Nolan Ryan article, he does not belong here. He does belong in the HOF, but not here.

Jeez, yep you're totally right about Ernie Banks...I seen him on the original posting and just got it caught in my mind he was a second baseman...I would put Morgan to start. I'm not going to put Honus Wagner on the squad (don't bash me, personal prefernce). I would want a speed guy off the bench, but I'm also leaving off Eddie Collins despite his 744 steals (He was only successful on 65% of his stolen base attempts, so he may run you out of a rally). I'm going with Nap Lajoie for utility role purposes.

I still leave Nolan Ryan on the squad as well, admittedly statically he looks down compared to others (maybe the fan in me causing my bias), you make some very good points however ...

JakeDelbreezy
07-12-2008, 02:04 PM
I'm not going to put Honus Wagner on the squad (don't bash me, personal prefernce).

I meant Rogers Hornsby...not Honus Wagner

ThunderRoad75
07-12-2008, 02:18 PM
where is ted williams and banks at 2b hmmmmmm

bagwell368
07-12-2008, 02:19 PM
Sit Ortiz, actually, take him off the team, Put Barry at DH

And also wheres Edgar Martinez aka The best DH ever

Edgar is a great DH, and has the advantage as being a capable backup 3B at his best.

But with the lumbar he's a 147 OPS+, and he only has 2 comps that are HOF (I assume Bernie Williams will be).

Thomas is at 157, and has 8 comps in, or going into the HOF, and he is a terrible fielder and baserunner. It's still got to be Frank with the edge unless you have no backup at 3B - but Chipper gives you a SH, CF, 3B, and SS.

Early on, Bonds was probably the best fielding LF of all time. If you want to dissalow everything after 1999, he's still probably good enough to be on the team, if so. Then Ted has DH duties, and you get Bonds/Mays/Aaron with Mantle/Musial splitting 1B and 4th OF duties. Not too shabby.

ThunderRoad75
07-12-2008, 02:41 PM
C,bench
1b,gehig
2b,morgan
3b,brett
ss,smith
of,bonds
of,mays
of ruth

sp koulfax
sp mathewson
sp johnson
sp carlton
sp spahn

closer fingers
bench, williams,cobb, wagner, hornsby,jeter,campallna

bagwell368
07-12-2008, 02:48 PM
sp koulfax
sp mathewson
sp johnson
sp carlton
sp spahn



Which Johnson?

Mathewson - his raw numbers are great, but his adjusted numbers while still HOF, are not in the upper echelon. And of course he never dealt with the live ball. 8 of his 17 years were elite, the rest not so much.

Carlton - great pitcher, but a lot of average and below average years mixed in. Only 5 really top years in a 24 year career.

ThunderRoad75
07-12-2008, 02:50 PM
walter

natepro
07-12-2008, 03:55 PM
If you're going to stick anyone but Ruth in the OF and/or at 1B, then you can't put anyone but Ruth at DH.

bartoron
07-12-2008, 04:28 PM
Did you seriously put Mike Lowell on your team? Because that's scary.

Ok, here's my team:


C: Johnny Bench
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Rogers Hornsby
3B: George Brett
SS: Alex Rodriguez
LF: Ted Williams
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Hank Aaron
DH: Babe Ruth
SP: Pedro Martinez

Yankees213
07-12-2008, 04:31 PM
Did you seriously put Mike Lowell on your team? Because that's scary.

I thought I was the only one who noticed that.
I'm actually offended as a baseball fan.

bagwell368
07-12-2008, 04:35 PM
If you're going to stick anyone but Ruth in the OF and/or at 1B, then you can't put anyone but Ruth at DH.

Sorry what was the population of the US when he started to play - 60 million? How many blacks and hispanics did he play with? How many countries have put players in the majors the past 25 years? How many million? 750 million? He taught everyone that the long fly could work as a strategy. Within just a few years of his coming others were doing almost the same - Gehrig, Foxx, Greenberg, DiMaggio, Ted, Ott, etc.

Being the first doesn't make you the only. He hit against guys throwing in the 80's. Yesterday I hefted one of his bats (a model not the real thing (in the Boston Museum of Science Baseball Exhibit which I highly recommend)) a 34/39, and I doubt anybody could hit .342 lifetime with that bat with pitchers throwing cut fastballs, splits, and the rest of it. He was known to use bats of up to 54 onces. Nobody gets around on Randy Johnson in his prime with that kind of lumber. Why do you think we have 5 man rotations and pitch counts and nobody over 300 IP? Its because almost every hitter has to be pitched as well as possible. Back in the day guys threw 400 and 500 IP because they were throwing BP speed to most hitters. Ruth changed that for sure. Doesn't mean he could master what he helped create.

BALLER71
07-12-2008, 04:38 PM
He's coming off the bench, like he should.

No he shouldn't he's Barry Bonds, before the roids he was a great hitter.

bagwell368
07-12-2008, 04:39 PM
Mike Lowell? When he is done he *might* crack the top 20 all time at 3B, as such, he wouldn't be a total joke, but with these guys available:

Schmidt
Brett
Matthews
Chipper
Boggs
Santo
Molitor
Brooks
AROD

available I see reason to mess with Lowell

bagwell368
07-12-2008, 04:49 PM
OK, slight changes, better L/R balance in the order. I don't honestly think anyone's named a better "playing" team yet.

IF: Musial, Morgan, Schmidt (back-up SS), AROD, Biggio (back up 2B, 3rd C, DH), Chipper (back up 3B/SS/OF/DH)

C: Bench, Yogi

OF: Bonds, Mays, Mantle, Aaron (back up 1B as well)

DH: Ted Williams

SP: Pedro, Grove, Randy, Maddux, Gibson

RP: Smoltz, Gossage, Eck, Rivera, Wagner, Hoffman, Franco

Morgan
Mays
Ted
Mantle
Bonds
Schmidt
Musial
AROD
Bench


[/QUOTE]

76YazwSideburns
07-12-2008, 05:23 PM
Sorry what was the population of the US when he started to play - 60 million? How many blacks and hispanics did he play with? How many countries have put players in the majors the past 25 years? How many million? 750 million? He taught everyone that the long fly could work as a strategy. Within just a few years of his coming others were doing almost the same - Gehrig, Foxx, Greenberg, DiMaggio, Ted, Ott, etc.

Being the first doesn't make you the only. He hit against guys throwing in the 80's. Yesterday I hefted one of his bats (a model not the real thing (in the Boston Museum of Science Baseball Exhibit which I highly recommend)) a 34/39, and I doubt anybody could hit .342 lifetime with that bat with pitchers throwing cut fastballs, splits, and the rest of it. He was known to use bats of up to 54 onces. Nobody gets around on Randy Johnson in his prime with that kind of lumber. Why do you think we have 5 man rotations and pitch counts and nobody over 300 IP? Its because almost every hitter has to be pitched as well as possible. Back in the day guys threw 400 and 500 IP because they were throwing BP speed to most hitters. Ruth changed that for sure. Doesn't mean he could master what he helped create.

Your argument sounds reasonable but, ultimately, it isn't an accurate way to suggest Ruth wasn't that great.

1) Yes the population was smaller and fewer nations contributed players, however, during Ruth's time any white athlete who was an elite athlete played baseball or boxed - they were the only sports you could make money at. Gehrig chose baseball over football for that very reason. So basball represented the absolute cream of the athletic crop - not like today, not close. So I suppose you could argue that when Ruth played, the league was more athletic than it is today - probably not true but the argument could be made.

2) To suggest that guys threw 80 and Ruth knocked them around is probably true - he also knocked around guys who threw 90 - the Philly A's had 3 guys who threw mid 90's in their starting rotation. He also hit them with a strike zone that makes today's look microscopic.

3) Ruth's power - he hit (I can find the number if you'd like) an astonishing number of opposite field home runs in Yankee stadium (457 right field) not bad for a lefty. This is a park, remember, that righties like DiMaggio complained bitterly about.

4) As for the pitch selection - no there may not have been cutters or sliders but there was good heat, curves, knuckles, and all manner of scuff and junk balls.

PS - Was that the baseball as america exhibit? Saw it in Cleveland last summer, it was awesome.

bagwell368
07-12-2008, 07:29 PM
Your argument sounds reasonable but, ultimately, it isn't an accurate way to suggest Ruth wasn't that great.

1) Yes the population was smaller and fewer nations contributed players, however, during Ruth's time any white athlete who was an elite athlete played baseball or boxed - they were the only sports you could make money at. Gehrig chose baseball over football for that very reason. So basball represented the absolute cream of the athletic crop - not like today, not close. So I suppose you could argue that when Ruth played, the league was more athletic than it is today - probably not true but the argument could be made.


It's true that baseball was number 1, but it was also true through at least 1960, if not 1975. With a larger population, still aiming at baseball, and with large amounts of blacks and latin players, I still have the high ground. Tell me this? In 1970 how many players only played baseball and had year long workout programs that didn't include the suds? 10? 14? How about in 1925? 6 - 8?



2) To suggest that guys threw 80 and Ruth knocked them around is probably true - he also knocked around guys who threw 90 - the Philly A's had 3 guys who threw mid 90's in their starting rotation. He also hit them with a strike zone that makes today's look microscopic.



Yes, he was still a great hitter in the early 30's when the pitchers were better, but the distance between him in 1921 and the rest of the league and in 1931-34 and the rest of the league is HUGE. In 1921 it was him. In 1931-1934 guys like Simmons, Gehringer, Foxx, Cochrane, Gehrig were at or above Ruth's numbers.



4) As for the pitch selection - no there may not have been cutters or sliders but there was good heat, curves, knuckles, and all manner of scuff and junk balls.

PS - Was that the baseball as america exhibit? Saw it in Cleveland last summer, it was awesome.

Yes BiA exhibit - very nice.

I always sound like I'm ripping Ruth. I am ripping the cloud of mystique around him. I have ripped it enough that for me, he is the towering figure in a sport I just love (and so do my boys; sorry - brag time - my 11 year old hit a 250' HR today, and threw a 14k 1 hitter in his previous game - he's playing the in Ripken LL tournament right now; my 16 year old lefty (6' 3" 185) has the most IP and lowest ERA in his spring and summer leagues 4 years running.)

Oops...

Anyhow Ruth is a great myth, a great figure, I just think that to transform these guys to their prime, and play today - that earlier guys are harder to figure out - so its a risk. I know what Aaron is going do, but not Babe. I want to see this team in the field playing!

HighVelocity
07-12-2008, 07:54 PM
Catcher: Yogi Berra
1st Base: Lou Gehrig
2nd Base: Rogers Hornsby
Shortstop: Honus Wagner
3rd Baseman: Mike Schmidt
Leftfield: Hank Aaron
Centerfield: Mickey Mantle
Rightfield: Babe Ruth

DH: Alex Rodriguez

Pitching Rotation:

Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Whitey Ford


Relievers:

Mariano Rivera
Dennis Eckersley
Rollie Fingers
Goose Gossage
Hoyt Wilhelm

Bench:

Jimmy Foxx
Roy Campanella
Ted Williams
Ty Cobb
Joe Dimaggio
Willie Mays
Jackie Robinson
Cal Ripken Jr.
Johnny Bench
Brooks Robinson
Willie Stargell

enf0e
07-12-2008, 11:52 PM
Catcher: Yogi Berra
1st Base: Lou Gehrig
2nd Base: Rogers Hornsby
Shortstop: Honus Wagner
3rd Baseman: Mike Schmidt
Leftfield: Hank Aaron
Centerfield: Mickey Mantle
Rightfield: Babe Ruth

DH: Alex Rodriguez

Pitching Rotation:

Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Whitey Ford


Relievers:

Mariano Rivera
Dennis Eckersley
Rollie Fingers
Goose Gossage
Hoyt Wilhelm

Bench:

Jimmy Foxx
Roy Campanella
Ted Williams
Ty Cobb
Joe Dimaggio
Willie Mays
Jackie Robinson
Cal Ripken Jr.
Johnny Bench
Brooks Robinson
Willie Stargell

Nice homer picks there.

In_Ned_I_Trust
07-13-2008, 12:59 AM
Barry is a douchebag and was a single, double hitter before roids. BTW Ruth is the best player of all time, when someone hits 714 Hr's and wins 94 games let me know.

bartoron
07-13-2008, 08:05 PM
Nice homer picks there.

His starting roster is a bit homerish, but overall I think it's pretty solid.

bagwell368
07-13-2008, 09:41 PM
Barry is a douchebag and was a single, double hitter before roids. BTW Ruth is the best player of all time, when someone hits 714 Hr's and wins 94 games let me know.

Barry is a doucebag. But most observers have him doing the big time HGH/juice cycle after 1999 when he gained 26 lbs and two hat sizes, prior to that he had years of:

HR: 33, 25, 34, 46, 37, 33, 42, 40, 37, 34 (that's a better run then any by Ted)
SLG: .565, .514, .624, .677, .647, .577, .615, .585, .609, .617 - maybe 10 guys have topped that run

3 MVP Awards

8 GG's

5 time leauge lead OPS and OPS+

5 times lead league in BB (inlcluding such insane numbers as 151, 145)

and 11 times 29 -> 52 SB with excellent percentages

an egocentric dip yes - how many guys in the history of baseball were had so much power, BA, BB, SB? He should have gotten to 600-630 HR's without the junk. He got pissed at the Sosa/McGwire HR war - two guys that were not even in the same class, and he tossed it away. I will take Barry from 1993 .336/.458/.677 46 HR 29 SB, 129 R 123 RBI, age 28, normal head size and weight

CAIN=FUTURE
07-14-2008, 02:59 AM
Barry is a doucebag. But most observers have him doing the big time HGH/juice cycle after 1999 when he gained 26 lbs and two hat sizes, prior to that he had years of:

HR: 33, 25, 34, 46, 37, 33, 42, 40, 37, 34 (that's a better run then any by Ted)
SLG: .565, .514, .624, .677, .647, .577, .615, .585, .609, .617 - maybe 10 guys have topped that run

3 MVP Awards

8 GG's

5 time leauge lead OPS and OPS+

5 times lead league in BB (inlcluding such insane numbers as 151, 145)

and 11 times 29 -> 52 SB with excellent percentages

an egocentric dip yes - how many guys in the history of baseball were had so much power, BA, BB, SB? He should have gotten to 600-630 HR's without the junk. He got pissed at the Sosa/McGwire HR war - two guys that were not even in the same class, and he tossed it away. I will take Barry from 1993 .336/.458/.677 46 HR 29 SB, 129 R 123 RBI, age 28, normal head size and weight

Very well said all around. The media suronding Sosa and McGwire made Barry extemely jelous, becuase he was the better player and got no attention.