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Epic89
07-11-2008, 12:23 AM
Put together the best team you can of guys under or around 25...

C- Russell Martin
1B- Miguel Cabrera
2B- Ian Kinsler
SS- Hanley Ramirez
3B- David Wright
LF- Ryan Braun
CF- Grady Sizemore
RF- Nick Markakis

SP- Cole Hamels
SP- Tim Lincecum
SP- Justin Verlander
SP- Scott Kazmir
SP- Felix Hernandez

SU- Carlos Marmol
CL- Francisco Rodriguez

FC_4_life
07-11-2008, 12:29 AM
Lincecum should be the Ace IMO, but otherwise its a good lineup. You should do one of prospects under 20 (that would be a challenge lol)!!!

Epic89
07-11-2008, 12:36 AM
Of the top 5 (Hamels, Lincecum, Verlander, Kazmir, and Hernandez ARE the top 5, no argument), I'm still convinced Verlander is best overall but I dropped him some 'cause he's having a down year.

ShinobiNYC
07-11-2008, 01:01 AM
K-Rod and Kinsler are 26.

here is my team:

C- Mauer
1B- Fielder
2B- Cano
3B- Wright
SS- Hanley
RF- Markakis
CF- Sizemore
LF- Kemp
DH- Cabrera

SP- Lincecum
SP- Hamels
SP- Volquez
SP- Kazmir
SP- Felix Hernandez

SU- Morrow
CL- Soria

jmtapia
07-11-2008, 01:12 AM
C- Brian McCann...
dont feel like typing the rest but i noticed neither of you had him. IMO he is the best young catcher in MLB. And would also be the only to make this list again next year as he is younger.

iam brett favre
07-11-2008, 01:17 AM
man what an amazing team that would be :drool:

CY24
07-11-2008, 01:34 AM
K-Rod and Kinsler are 26.

here is my team:

C- Mauer
1B- Fielder
2B- Cano
3B- Wright
SS- Hanley
RF- Markakis
CF- Sizemore
LF- Kemp
DH- Cabrera

SP- Lincecum
SP- Hamels
SP- Volquez
SP- Kazmir
SP- Felix Hernandez

SU- Morrow
CL- Soria

Kemp and Markakis over both Uptons? Thats a joke! Kemp has no business being on this list

Manny Paplfavre
07-11-2008, 01:49 AM
Lineup:
SS- Hanley
C- Mauer
DH- Cabrera
1B- Fielder
OF- Braun
OF- Sizemore
3B- Wright
2B- Pedroia
OF- Ellsbury


SP- Lincecum
SP- Hamels
SP- Verlander
SP- Kazmir
SP- Felix Hernandez

SU- Zumaya
CL- Street

nme
07-11-2008, 02:06 AM
Kemp and Markakis over both Uptons? Thats a joke! Kemp has no business being on this list

Hell yes he does.

chicubs377
07-11-2008, 02:09 AM
were is the geovany soto love?

jmtapia
07-11-2008, 02:32 AM
were is the geovany soto love?

who?

Buckwheat
07-11-2008, 03:08 AM
who?

The All Star Game starter for the NL at catcher..

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6428

Buckwheat
07-11-2008, 03:12 AM
C: Geo Soto
1B: Prince Fielder
2B: Ian Kinsler
3B: Evan Longoria
SS: Hanley Ramirez
OF: Jay Bruce
OF: Grady Sizemore
OF: Ryan Braun

SP: Lincecum
SP: Volquez
SP: Kazmir
SP: Hamels
SP: Hernandez

SU: Marmol
CL: Soria

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 03:20 AM
Geovany Soto over Mauer is laughable.

Mauer is the best catcher under 25. Better than McCann, better than Martin, better than Soto.

DamnGoat
07-11-2008, 03:24 AM
Lineup

CF-Sizemore
SS-Ramirez
3B-Wright
1B-Fielder
LF-Quentin
RF-Markakis
C-Soto
2B-Pedroia

Rotation
Lincecum
Hernandez
Hamels
Volquez
Kazmir

SU-Marmol
CL-K-Rod

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 03:24 AM
I'd love to hear a compelling argument for Soto, a vet of 381 career at bats entering today, over Mauer, who has over 1800.

Can't be youth; Mauer is younger than Soto.

Humongo
07-11-2008, 05:15 AM
Um...Soto's eyebrows?

CAIN=FUTURE
07-11-2008, 12:37 PM
C- Russell Martin
1B- Miguel Cabrera
2B- Robison Cano
SS- Hanley Ramirez
3B- David Wright
LF- Ryan Braun
CF- Grady Sizemore
RF- Nick Markakis

(No paritcular order)
SP- Matt Cain
SP- Tim Lincecum
SP- Justin Verlander
SP- Scott Kazmir
SP- Felix Hernandez

CL- Brian Wilson

FriarFanatic
07-11-2008, 01:31 PM
C-Mauer
1B-Fielder
2B-Kinsler
SS-Hanley
3B-Wright
LF-Braun
CF-Ellsbury
RF-Bruce

Starting Pitchers
1)Felix Hernandez
2)Cole Hamels
3)Tiny Tim
4)Justin Verlander
5)Joba Chamberlain

SU-Marmol
CL-Papelbon

CardzRule
07-11-2008, 01:48 PM
C-Joe Mauer
1B-Prince Fielder (only because I couldn't choose Pujols, who will retire after this guy)
2B-Dustin Pedroia
3B-David Wright
SS-Hanley Ramirez
OF-Nick Markakis
OF-Colby Rasmus
OF-Ryan Braun

SP's
Tim Lincecum
Adam Wainwright
Scott Kazmir
Felix Hernandez

CL
Husten Street

nme
07-11-2008, 01:57 PM
Seriously, Soto is in his rookie season and some of you want to anoint him the best catcher 25 or under over Mauer, McCann, and Martin??? I know all you Cubbie fans have a woody for the guy and got him to start the ASG, but this is a bit premature.

CY24
07-11-2008, 02:15 PM
c. McCann (24)
1b. fielder (24)
2b. Cano (25)
ss. hanram (24)
3b. wright (25)
of. braun (24)
of. bj upton (23)
of. j up (20)

sp. King Felix (22)
sp. Lincecum (24)
sp. Kazmir (24)
sp. Cole Hamels (24)

cp. Street (24)

CY24
07-11-2008, 02:18 PM
Hell yes he does.

Why? He is almost 25 and he still cant hit a slider.

m26555
07-11-2008, 03:36 PM
I honestly cannot believe that the good majority of you chose Fielder over Cabrera for 1B.

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 03:36 PM
Meh, I suppose it's kind of a bad idea.

DamnGoat
07-11-2008, 03:40 PM
I'd love to hear a compelling argument for Soto, a vet of 381 career at bats entering today, over Mauer, who has over 1800.

Can't be youth; Mauer is younger than Soto.
I'll be honest and say he is my one homer pick here. It's been a while since the Cubs had a rookie to get excited about.

Other than that my list is pretty good.

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 03:41 PM
Fair enough:)

hgtiger32
07-11-2008, 04:03 PM
what about Yovani Gallardo and Evan Longoria

plastikelastik
07-11-2008, 04:10 PM
C - Russel Martin (25)
1B - Miguel Cabrera (25)
2B - Ian Kinsler (26); Dustin Pedroia if you want 25 and under (24)
3B - David Wright (25)
SS - Hanley Ramirez (24)
OF - BJ Upton (23)
OF - Ryan Braun (24)
OF - Grady Sizemore (25)

SP - Tim Linecum (24)
SP - Felix Hernandez (22)
SP - Cole Hamels (24)
SP - Chad Billingsley (25)
SP - Scott Kazmir (24)

RP - Carlos Marmol (25)
CL - Francisco Rodriguez (26); Brandon Morrow otherwise (23)

nme
07-11-2008, 04:14 PM
Why? He is almost 25 and he still cant hit a slider.

He's 23, will be 24 a few weeks before season's end.

Yes, he still needs to work on hitting the breaking pitch away. This is no secret. However, watching him play day in and day out, it is very clear that once he cuts down on the strikeouts, we will be an offensive force. Furthermore, he's only been playing since the end of high school, giving him about 6 years of baseball experience. Sure, he may not pan out, but his potential is through the roof and what else do you base a futures list on?

scrumptiousduck
07-11-2008, 04:14 PM
future means future not now

C- martin
1B- fielder
2B- padroia
3B- wright
SS- hanley
OF- jay bruce
OF- Ellisbury
OF- Braun
DH- loney

P- hamels
P- volquez
P- kazmir
P- hernandez
P- kershaw (next pedro martinez except the dodgers keep him)
CL- K rod

REGular
07-11-2008, 04:18 PM
Split 'em up between NL vs. AL?

Buckwheat
07-11-2008, 04:18 PM
I'll be honest and say he is my one homer pick here. It's been a while since the Cubs had a rookie to get excited about.

Other than that my list is pretty good.

:laugh2:

He was my homer pick, as well..

We don't a ton of young guys to brag about except him..

CB30
07-11-2008, 04:24 PM
Geovany Soto over Mauer is laughable.

Mauer is the best catcher under 25. Better than McCann, better than Martin, better than Soto.

says the Twins fan

Buckwheat
07-11-2008, 04:26 PM
says the Twins fan

Too bad the Twins fan is right..

Mr.C
07-11-2008, 04:30 PM
Cabby is not a great 1st baseman I'd take "the prince" over him. but I can understand where one might make he argument about Cabby.

C-Russell Martin
1B-Prince Fielder
2B-Dustin Pedroia (Ian Kinsler just turned 26)
3B-Evan Longoria
SS-Hanley Ramirez
OF-Jacoby Ellsbury
OF- Grady Sizemore
OF-Ryan Braun

SP's
Tim Lincecum
Jon Lester
Scott Kazmir
Felix Hernandez (we should be talking about Andrew Miller next year)

CL
Joakim Soria

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 04:33 PM
says the Twins fan

....that's the best defense?

Buckwheat
07-11-2008, 04:35 PM
....that's the best defense?

... and your face is ugly!

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 04:37 PM
Truth never hurt anyone.

PhillyUD26
07-11-2008, 04:37 PM
Cabby is not a great 1st baseman I'd take "the prince" over him. but I can understand where one might make he argument about Cabby.

C-Russell Martin
1B-Prince Fielder
2B-Dustin Pedroia (Ian Kinsler just turned 26)
3B-Evan Longoria
SS-Hanley Ramirez
OF-Jacoby Ellsbury
OF- Grady Sizemore
OF-Ryan Braun

SP's
Tim Lincecum
Jon Lester
Scott Kazmir
Felix Hernandez (we should be talking about Andrew Miller next year)

CL
Joakim Soria

haha Jon Lester? Cmon now I don't even think a Red Sox homer would say him, I would even put Buchholz over Lester.

And just so all of you know, the original poster said "under or around 25", so therefore Ian Kinsler should be the 2b on every single one of these.

plastikelastik
07-11-2008, 04:38 PM
Too bad the Twins fan is right..

Why is a guy who doesn't hit for power and doesn't steal any bases so valuable? Yes, he's a patient hitter who draws walks and can hit for average, but that makes him a Placido Polanco and I don't see everyone clamoring he's the best 2B in the bigs. He badly lacks speed and power from his arsenal, something Russ Martin has more of both.

Mauer is going to be great, but I have a hard time believing he will be the best.

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 04:38 PM
I'm curious why you'd pick Clay?

Jimi032890
07-11-2008, 04:40 PM
Johnny Danks anyone?

Buckwheat
07-11-2008, 04:40 PM
Why is a guy who doesn't hit for power and doesn't steal any bases so valuable? Yes, he's a patient hitter who draws walks and can hit for average, but that makes him a Placido Polanco and I don't see everyone clamoring he's the best 2B in the bigs. He badly lacks speed and power from his arsenal, something Russ Martin has more of both.

Mauer is going to be great, but I have a hard time believing he will be the best.

Mauer is also the best defensive catcher in baseball.

torontosports10
07-11-2008, 04:41 PM
C-Martin
1B-Miggy
2B-Kinsler
3B-Longoria
SS-HanRam
OF-Grady
OF-Bruce
OF-Barun
DH-Wright

SP-Timmy Linecum
SP-Scott Kazmir
SP-Cole Hamels
SP-Edinson Volquez
SP-JOBAAA

CL-K-rod

;)

PhillyUD26
07-11-2008, 04:47 PM
I'm curious why you'd pick Clay?

Well I would pick him way before Lester, I think he's got a much higher ceiling than him. His curveball is just straight nasty, and he's got a pretty dominating fastball. If he can continue to develop his control and his windup/throwing motion correctly, he will be a "future" ace IMO.

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 04:47 PM
Why is a guy who doesn't hit for power and doesn't steal any bases so valuable? Yes, he's a patient hitter who draws walks and can hit for average, but that makes him a Placido Polanco and I don't see everyone clamoring he's the best 2B in the bigs. He badly lacks speed and power from his arsenal, something Russ Martin has more of both.

Mauer is going to be great, but I have a hard time believing he will be the best.

Mauer has the best career OPS+ of any of them. Must come from the sideburns, I guess.

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 04:48 PM
Well I would pick him way before Lester, I think he's got a much higher ceiling than him. His curveball is just straight nasty, and he's got a pretty dominating fastball. If he can continue to develop his control and his windup/throwing motion correctly, he will be a "future" ace IMO.

Lester's been better as a pro, though.

Buckwheat
07-11-2008, 04:50 PM
Mauer has the best career OPS+ of any of them. Must come from the sideburns, I guess.

His sideburns have nothing on Geo's eyebrows.

brandonwarne52
07-11-2008, 04:51 PM
Until they have a Geo eyebrow giveaway at Wrigley, then I disagree.

PhillyUD26
07-11-2008, 04:52 PM
Lester's been better as a pro, though.

I guess? He's got a lot more service time than Clay, but since we are talking about future teams, I'm taking Clay over Lester 9 times out of 10.

Buckwheat
07-11-2008, 07:42 PM
Until they have a Geo eyebrow giveaway at Wrigley, then I disagree.

The man is just beautiful..

You can't give away his looks, it would ruin the man's beauty.



http://www.mlb.com/images/2008/03/10/TwoKkZjZ.jpg

Mauer's choppers are just lame..

CY24
07-11-2008, 11:43 PM
future means future not now

C- martin
1B- fielder
2B- padroia
3B- wright
SS- hanley
OF- jay bruce
OF- Ellisbury
OF- Braun
DH- loney

P- hamels
P- volquez
P- kazmir
P- hernandez
P- kershaw (next pedro martinez except the dodgers keep him)
CL- K rod

I hope for your sake that this is a joke.... james loney????? he has no power, he will hit 20 hr a year, in his prime. Out of curiosity, why did you put him up there?

INeedACain
07-12-2008, 12:29 AM
C- Martin
1b- Fielder
2b- Kinsler
3b- Longoria
SS- Ramirez
LF- Braun
CF- Bruce (LF?)
RF- J. Upton (CF?)

1- Lincecum
2- Verlander
3- F. Hernandez
4- Kazmir
5- Cain (sorry)

SU- Marmol
CL- Morrow

To bad we don't know of any other planets that play baseball!

CAIN=FUTURE
07-12-2008, 12:37 AM
C- Martin
1b- Fielder
2b- Kinsler
3b- Longoria
SS- Ramirez
LF- Braun
CF- Bruce (LF?)
RF- J. Upton (CF?)

1- Lincecum
2- Verlander
3- F. Hernandez
4- Kazmir
5- Cain (sorry)

SU- Marmol
CL- Morrow

To bad we don't know of any other planets that play baseball!

I think you and me will get along quit well.

brandonwarne52
07-12-2008, 03:12 AM
So I'm curious.....Martin over Mauer?

How?

FriarFanatic
07-12-2008, 10:49 AM
i wish this was my fantasy baseball team

North Yorker
07-12-2008, 11:21 AM
How old is Shaun Marcum? If he is young enough he should definitely be considered.

Joba Rules!!
07-12-2008, 11:35 AM
Lineup:
SS- Hanley
C- Mauer
DH- Cabrera
1B- Fielder
OF- Braun
OF- Sizemore
3B- Wright
2B- Pedroia
OF- Ellsbury


SP- Lincecum
SP- Hamels
SP- Verlander
SP- Kazmir
SP- Felix Hernandez

SU- Zumaya
CL- Street

:laugh: Homer much?

Street as closer over K-Rod and Soria?

rriders9
07-13-2008, 12:35 AM
How old is Shaun Marcum? If he is young enough he should definitely be considered.

Marcums 26, but i think there are better young arms out there

CarniifeX
07-13-2008, 12:44 AM
Geovany Soto over Mauer is laughable.

Mauer is the best catcher under 25. Better than McCann, better than Martin, better than Soto.

OMG what a homer. I don't want to get in an argument with you because you will just bring up OPS+. But, Martin is better, overall, than Mauer.

HighVelocity
07-13-2008, 02:32 AM
C- Joe Mauer
1B- Prince Fielder
2B- Dustin Pedroia
SS- Jose Reyes
3B- David Wright
LF- Ryan Braun
CF- Grady Sizemore
RF- B.J. Upton

SP- Felix Hernandez
SP- Tim Lincecum
SP- Edinson Volquez
SP- Scott Kazmir
SP- Joba Chamberlain

SU- J.P. Howell
CL- Francisco Rodriguez

brandonwarne52
07-13-2008, 02:43 AM
OMG what a homer. I don't want to get in an argument with you because you will just bring up OPS+. But, Martin is better, overall, than Mauer.

Translated: You won't argue with someone who will beat you.

Fair enough. But, because I can:

Career Numbers

RC/G:
Martin 5.9
Mauer 6.8

OPS:
Mauer .855
Martin .826

OPS+:
Mauer 127
Martin 111

And for the record, you aren't a homer when you're right.:o

GHGHCP
07-13-2008, 09:56 AM
Why? He is almost 25 and he still cant hit a slider.

You want to bring up the fact that Kemp Ks too much but have Justin Upton on your team? Upton was striking out so much it almost got to the point with him getting sent down to the minors. Its even worse when you consider the high elevation on his home park and the fact curve balls and other off speed pitchers don't break nearly as much.

Knicks845
07-13-2008, 10:18 AM
C- Martin
1B-Fielder
2B-Cano
3B-Braun
SS-Hanley
CF-Sizemore
LF-Carlos Q.
RF- Nick M


Sp- Tim L.

Cls- K-Rod

CarniifeX
07-13-2008, 01:28 PM
Translated: You won't argue with someone who will beat you.

Fair enough. But, because I can:

Career Numbers

RC/G:
Martin 5.9
Mauer 6.8

OPS:
Mauer .855
Martin .826

OPS+:
Mauer 127
Martin 111

And for the record, you aren't a homer when you're right.:o

Ok, I dont care about OPS and OPS+ and all that crap. Martin plays on a much worse offensive club. I guess I can go here with you then....

HR:
Mauer: 5
Martin: 10

RBI:
Mauer: 41
Martin: 45

Stolen Bases
Mauer: 0
Martin: 10

Gold Gloves
Mauer: 0
Martin: 1

Martin has 1 less career HR in 2 less seasons.

And I still don't want to argue with you. Please, dont reply.

brandonwarne52
07-13-2008, 02:18 PM
Then stop embarrassing yourself, or I'll continue to do it for you.

letsgofish
07-13-2008, 02:36 PM
dude mauer isnt better than martin. any side of the ball

brandonwarne52
07-13-2008, 02:45 PM
dude mauer isnt better than martin. any side of the ball

Why don't you stick to something you know?

Like nothing.

brandonwarne52
07-13-2008, 02:45 PM
dude mauer isnt better than martin. any side of the ball

Why don't you stick to something you know.

Like:

Nothing.

letsgofish
07-13-2008, 02:47 PM
good one. martin is a better hitter and a better all around player and if you would take mauer over him you are nuts.

CarniifeX
07-13-2008, 03:01 PM
Then stop embarrassing yourself, or I'll continue to do it for you.

Yes, I am getting red-faced over the internet. It's just a fact and I think a lot of people will agree with me. He is better, and WILL be better.

And quit double posting. There is a button on the bottom right of each post, says "edit" on it. Use it.

I smell my bat
07-13-2008, 04:13 PM
OMG what a homer. I don't want to get in an argument with you because you will just bring up OPS+. But, Martin is better, overall, than Mauer.
You are an idiot then, Mauer is probably the best catcher in the league right now think about in 5 years!

I smell my bat
07-13-2008, 04:17 PM
good one. martin is a better hitter and a better all around player and if you would take mauer over him you are nuts.
How is he a better hitter, who has the batting title? Who has a better average right now? MAUER.

CY24
07-13-2008, 04:31 PM
You want to bring up the fact that Kemp Ks too much but have Justin Upton on your team? Upton was striking out so much it almost got to the point with him getting sent down to the minors. Its even worse when you consider the high elevation on his home park and the fact curve balls and other off speed pitchers don't break nearly as much.

haha, thank you for that random factoid..... J Up is 20 years old, when Kemp was 20 years old he was in A ball. Also, Uptons problem is not hitting the slider. Earlier in the year he struglled with his feel for the strike zone and his k's were goin down looking. He now has a better feel for it and was back to his april form, (hitting above .300 in late June and early July) before his injury. Im not saying Upton doesn't strike out a lot, but he is 20 years old... and has a much higher cieling than kemp.

CY24
07-13-2008, 04:32 PM
also Upton is hitting over .300 at home this year but has struggled on the road. That has nothing to do with your little "elevation" stat.

quiksilver2491
07-13-2008, 04:57 PM
Wow, homers show their true colors in this thread. Anyone who picks Russell Martin over Joe Mauer clearly doesn't know a thing about baseball. I shouldn't see Robinson Cano anywhere near this list, he has regressed each year since he entered the league and his OPS+ of 73 is absolutley terrible, even Julio Lugo hasn't been that bad. Felix Hernandez has turned into one of the most overated players in baseball, he is having his best year this year but he still is more hype than anything. K-Rod is perhaps the most overated in all of baseball, his WHIP is pretty average to below average for a closer, yet he is still regarded as one of the best closers because of a low ERA and a lot of saves. Also Jose Reyes should never be placed ahead of Hanley Ramirez, nor should any short stop for that matter. Then again I can't say I was surprised when I hear Giants fans have Brian Wilson for their closer :rolleyes:

Kenny
07-13-2008, 05:04 PM
Wow, homers show their true colors in this thread. Anyone who picks Russell Martin over Joe Mauer clearly doesn't know a thing about baseball. I shouldn't see Robinson Cano anywhere near this list, he has regressed each year since he entered the league and his OPS+ of 73 is absolutley terrible, even Julio Lugo hasn't been that bad. Felix Hernandez has turned into one of the most overated players in baseball, he is having his best year this year but he still is more hype than anything. K-Rod is perhaps the most overated in all of baseball, his WHIP is pretty average to below average for a closer, yet he is still regarded as one of the best closers because of a low ERA and a lot of saves. Also Jose Reyes should never be placed ahead of Hanley Ramirez, nor should any short stop for that matter. Then again I can't say I was surprised when I hear Giants fans have Brian Wilson for their closer :rolleyes:


Felix has a 2.95 ERA and he is overrated? Please, and i'm sorry if people like there shortstop to be able to catch a baseball which Hanley clearly doesnt know how to do.

quiksilver2491
07-13-2008, 06:08 PM
Felix has a 2.95 ERA and he is overrated? Please, and i'm sorry if people like there shortstop to be able to catch a baseball which Hanley clearly doesnt know how to do.

Your right, his 2.95 ERA is beyond greatness, why don't we just place him in the HOF already :rolleyes:. When the guy sits at the top of some people's lists as the best ace under 25 and is putting up average stats when guys like Volquez and Lincecum are DOMINTATING their respective leagues then you know the guy is more hype than anything.

As for taking Jose Reyes over Hanley, thats a joke. You would have to be a pretty damn big homer to think Reyes is better. Sure Hanley isn't a great defensive SS but Reyes isn't in at that elite level either. Hanley is one of the premier hitters in all of baseball, few can rival his ability at the plate.

quiksilver2491
07-13-2008, 06:16 PM
No, you're the idiot my friend. Another homer from Minnesota. Martin has all the tools, Mauer doesnt. Martin can hit for power, avg, rbi, great defense, and speed.

Im not from Minnesota, and im no Twins fan. Mauer is clearly better and if you have to use characteristics to prove your point it just shows how weak your arguement really is. Why don't you post actual stats to back your arguement, then we can actually hold a real debate, until then you have no legitimate points.

YankeeFan28
07-13-2008, 06:18 PM
Wow, homers show their true colors in this thread. Anyone who picks Russell Martin over Joe Mauer clearly doesn't know a thing about baseball. I shouldn't see Robinson Cano anywhere near this list, he has regressed each year since he entered the league and his OPS+ of 73 is absolutley terrible, even Julio Lugo hasn't been that bad. Felix Hernandez has turned into one of the most overated players in baseball, he is having his best year this year but he still is more hype than anything. K-Rod is perhaps the most overated in all of baseball, his WHIP is pretty average to below average for a closer, yet he is still regarded as one of the best closers because of a low ERA and a lot of saves. Also Jose Reyes should never be placed ahead of Hanley Ramirez, nor should any short stop for that matter. Then again I can't say I was surprised when I hear Giants fans have Brian Wilson for their closer :rolleyes:

How has Cano regressed every year since he entered the league? And yes, he's struggled this year. Does that mean he's regressed? I didn't think you would take half a season and use it to make a claim...

quiksilver2491
07-13-2008, 06:39 PM
How has Cano regressed every year since he entered the league? And yes, he's struggled this year. Does that mean he's regressed? I didn't think you would take half a season and use it to make a claim...

My mistake, from his rookie year to his sophomore year he got better but ever since then he has slipped. BA, SLG, OBP, and OPS+ will all tell you that. I would say that is a regression and how can I base it off the entire year when they have ony played till the All-Star break, based off that he has regressed this year, the verdict is still out on how he will do in the 2nd half but I don't think you can say he has gotten better.

CarniifeX
07-13-2008, 06:40 PM
Im not from Minnesota, and im no Twins fan. Mauer is clearly better and if you have to use characteristics to prove your point it just shows how weak your arguement really is. Why don't you post actual stats to back your arguement, then we can actually hold a real debate, until then you have no legitimate points.

Again? I am not saying that Martin has a better AVG than Mauer, but he still does hit for AVG.

AVG:
Martin: .295
Mauer: .322

HR:
Martin: 10
Mauer: 5

RBI:
Martin: 45
Mauer: 41

Stolen Bases:
Martin: 10
Mauer: 0

GHGHCP
07-13-2008, 07:31 PM
also Upton is hitting over .300 at home this year but has struggled on the road. That has nothing to do with your little "elevation" stat.


Umm elevation has EVERYTHING to do with how well he is hitting. When you play at ballparks that high up (like Coors and Chase) the ball travels a lot farther when hit and doesn't break nearly as well when trying to throw a curve ball or other breaking pitches. Are you really surprised the D-backs some how hit better at home?

Look I know he is young and very talented. I just found it funny that you would cite Kemp's K rate and not factor in Upton's as he was playing so poorly at the plate and in the field that he was a bad week away from going down to the minors (said from Melvin and your D-Backs announcers).

brandonwarne52
07-13-2008, 09:27 PM
Martin can hit for power, avg, rbi, great defense, and speed.

If Martin hit for better power, he'd have a better SLG.
If he hit for a better average, I haven't seen it.
RBI? Seriously man, stop clowning.
Great defense? Maybe you haven't watched Joe Mauer, then.
Speed? Mauer doesn't steal bags because he hits in front of an MVP. But, if you want to bring speed into the equation, find a stat on bunt hits for catchers and I'd bet you 20 bucks that Mauer leads the list.

PhillyUD26
07-13-2008, 09:35 PM
Again? I am not saying that Martin has a better AVG than Mauer, but he still does hit for AVG.

AVG:
Martin: .295
Mauer: .322

HR:
Martin: 10
Mauer: 5

RBI:
Martin: 45
Mauer: 41

Stolen Bases:
Martin: 10
Mauer: 0

RBI's have very little to do with who's a better player, but what offense they are in. Also bringing up SB stats is just pointless, everyone knows that Mauer can't steal bases and that Martin can...and if that is purely the basis on your argument then you loose once again. Besides stolen bases are a very overrated statistic, they are great in Fantasy baseball, and getting them from the Catcher position is awesome, but in a baseball game SB are just a plus not a necessity. Hittin for avg, getting on base and slugging percentages are a necessity, and Mauer is better in all of them except slugging. Plus his OPS+ blows Martin out of the water, and that means a LOT considering it takes into account the park factors...Mauer playing in such a huge pitchers park takes a lot away from his slugging percentage, and his HR totals.

brandonwarne52
07-13-2008, 09:37 PM
Mauer doesn't steals bases; doesn't mean that he can't.

He's actually an incredible baserunner who doesn't make outs on the bases, bunts for way more hits than you'd expect, and just overall has a well rounded game.

PhillyUD26
07-13-2008, 09:43 PM
Mauer doesn't steals bases; doesn't mean that he can't.

He's actually an incredible baserunner who doesn't make outs on the bases, bunts for way more hits than you'd expect, and just overall has a well rounded game.

Fair enough, I was just trying to make the point that SB are not a necessity at all from the catchers position...whether or not he can doesn't really matter all that much. The fact that Martin does steal them is great for my fantasy team, but by no means am I going to say that Martin is a better player than Mauer simply because he steals bases, and can hit a few more knocks each year.

CarniifeX
07-13-2008, 09:47 PM
Okay, HR, RBI, and SB can win you games. If you hit a HR, your up by 1. Will SLG win you games? Ya I got a SLG that put us up by 3. HR, RBI, and SB factor into each win. And nobody cares what catcher has more bunt hits, nobody keeps those stats except for you. And why would Mauer want to bunt for a hit if he is "the best catcher"?

PhillyUD26
07-13-2008, 09:55 PM
If SB win games then SLG wins games as well. Do you even know what SLG% means?? It means that your in better position to score, whether its a double or a triple, your in scoring position by either hitting your way there or stealing a base. I would much rather have a player hit their way there, than steal the base because its better potential for somebody to score if they are on base when they hit. A single doesn't do as much damage as a double or triple.

GHGHCP
07-13-2008, 09:56 PM
I'm more concerned everyone is making a big stink about Martin and Mauer when McCann is having a better year then both of them. All an all who cares as most fans would love to have any 3 of them and I'm sure Cub fans have fallen for Soto.

My pick would be Martin of course as he out of the 4 "elite" catchers is the best athlete of the bunch. I mean come on, what if Hanley or Longoria go down in my future's team? Martin can fill in nicely!! :D

In short.. stop the madness.

CarniifeX
07-13-2008, 10:04 PM
Ok, I will stop the madness.






Martin > Mauer

chinese_man_77
07-13-2008, 10:12 PM
no love for jose reyes?
when hanley gets kicked out of the ss position and is moved to 3rd or 1st i think youd have to go with reyes

GHGHCP
07-13-2008, 10:15 PM
no love for jose reyes?
when hanley gets kicked out of the ss position and is moved to 3rd or 1st i think youd have to go with reyes

His days will be spent patrolling the outfield in the future.

brandonwarne52
07-13-2008, 10:21 PM
And why would Mauer want to bunt for a hit if he is "the best catcher"?

That doesn't even make sense.

Why would Martin need to steal bases if he was the best hitter/had so much power?:rolleyes:

CY24
07-13-2008, 10:55 PM
Look I know he is young and very talented. I just found it funny that you would cite Kemp's K rate

I never cited Kemps K rate. I just said he couldn't hit a slider.

CarniifeX
07-14-2008, 12:22 AM
That doesn't even make sense.

Why would Martin need to steal bases if he was the best hitter/had so much power?:rolleyes:

Because he gets on base..........


But, if you want to bring speed into the equation, find a stat on bunt hits for catchers and I'd bet you 20 bucks that Mauer leads the list.

I guess you don't make sense.

brandonwarne52
07-14-2008, 12:33 AM
Just quit. Seriously. Go check your poll.

CarniifeX
07-14-2008, 12:50 AM
Just quit. Seriously. Go check your poll.

Ok, nobody is going to convince me that Mauer is better than Martin.


Should you be lifting weights or something?

CAIN=FUTURE
07-14-2008, 02:56 AM
I'm more concerned everyone is making a big stink about Martin and Mauer when McCann is having a better year then both of them. All an all who cares as most fans would love to have any 3 of them and I'm sure Cub fans have fallen for Soto.

My pick would be Martin of course as he out of the 4 "elite" catchers is the best athlete of the bunch. I mean come on, what if Hanley or Longoria go down in my future's team? Martin can fill in nicely!! :D

In short.. stop the madness.

Cant argue that. Last week against the Giants when he played 3rd, and Randy Winn layed down a fantastic bunt and Martin threw a bullet over to first on the run, :pity:.

lakerfan2293
07-17-2008, 06:01 PM
even though he's having a rough 1st half i'd have to put cano as the best young 2b and i'd put joba in my rotation too

c-joe mauer
1b-prince fielder
2b-robinson cano
3b-david wright
ss-hanley ramirez
of-grady sizemore
of-ryan braun
of-nick markakis

I Am Awesome-O
07-17-2008, 06:10 PM
You have to put Giovanni Soto at catcher. Look at the numbers he is putting up as an all-star rookie. He is definately gonna be a really great one.

Joba Rules!!
07-17-2008, 06:25 PM
You have to put Giovanni Soto at catcher. Look at the numbers he is putting up as an all-star rookie. He is definately gonna be a really great one.

Mauer and Martin actually have more than one half season under their belts though.

cwilson21
07-17-2008, 06:30 PM
I'm more concerned everyone is making a big stink about Martin and Mauer when McCann is having a better year then both of them. All an all who cares as most fans would love to have any 3 of them and I'm sure Cub fans have fallen for Soto.

My pick would be Martin of course as he out of the 4 "elite" catchers is the best athlete of the bunch. I mean come on, what if Hanley or Longoria go down in my future's team? Martin can fill in nicely!! :D

In short.. stop the madness.

If we are talking athleticism, can we take into account other sports? Mauer would win that fairly easy.

brandonwarne52
07-17-2008, 06:34 PM
No way is Martin a better athlete than Mauer. Mauer had a full ride to play quarterback at Florida State.

:rolleyes:

brandonwarne52
07-17-2008, 06:34 PM
You have to put Giovanni Soto at catcher.

Mauer is younger than Soto.

The Intimidator
07-17-2008, 06:36 PM
i agree completely with soto.

C- Geovany Soto
1B- Prince Fielder
2B- Dustin Pedroia ('07 rookie of the year, world series winner, all-star game starting 2B, potential gold glove winner, all at age 24. need i say more?)
3B- David Wright
SS- Hanley Ramirez (although he won't be at short for long)
OF- Ryan Braun
OF- Nick Markakis
OF- Grady Sizemore
DH- Jarrod Saltalamacchia (i just like typing his name)

my picks are virtually the same as lakerfan2293's, except pedroia is better than cano, imo. he has always been superior defensively, been a better on-base percentage guy, and hits for a higher average. cano is supposed to produce more in terms of homers and rbis, but dustin has him beat there, at least this season. (.246 average, 6 hr, 38 rbi, .285 obp, .358 slugging percentage, .643 ops for cano, as opposed to a .314 average, 9 hr, 47 rbi, .357 obp, .458 slugging percentage, .815 ops for pedroia.)

brandonwarne52
07-17-2008, 06:38 PM
What do you not understand about Soto being older than Mauer?

ugafan
07-17-2008, 06:45 PM
i agree completely with soto.

C- Geovany Soto
1B- Prince Fielder
2B- Dustin Pedroia ('07 rookie of the year, world series winner, all-star game starting 2B, potential gold glove winner, all at age 24. need i say more?)
3B- David Wright
SS- Hanley Ramirez (although he won't be at short for long)
OF- Ryan Braun
OF- Nick Markakis
OF- Grady Sizemore
DH- Jarrod Saltalamacchia (i just like typing his name)

my picks are virtually the same as lakerfan2293's, except pedroia is better than cano, imo. he has always been superior defensively, been a better on-base percentage guy, and hits for a higher average. cano is supposed to produce more in terms of homers and rbis, but dustin has him beat there, at least this season. (.246 average, 6 hr, 38 rbi, .285 obp, .358 slugging percentage, .643 ops for cano, as opposed to a .314 average, 9 hr, 47 rbi, .357 obp, .458 slugging percentage, .815 ops for pedroia.)

WO(homer)W!

The Intimidator
07-17-2008, 06:48 PM
WO(homer)W!

i may be a homer, but i backed my pick up with legitimate statistical evidence. give me someone else under the age of 25 who has accomplished as much as pedroia has at second base...

brandonwarne52
07-17-2008, 06:51 PM
Actually pretty sure Pedroia is the only pick. Weeks sucks right now, and Kinsler has been 26 for almost a month.

The Intimidator
07-17-2008, 06:52 PM
Actually pretty sure Pedroia is the only pick. Weeks sucks right now, and Kinsler has been 26 for almost a month.

thank you.

GHGHCP
07-17-2008, 08:17 PM
If we are talking athleticism, can we take into account other sports? Mauer would win that fairly easy.

Just because he can throw, has above avg speed and is tall?


No way is Martin a better athlete than Mauer. Mauer had a full ride to play quarterback at Florida State.

:rolleyes:

Most QBs aren't athletic, I doubt Mauer can play the infield like Martin can.

I would love to see Mauer try to play 3B (a great defensive 3B like Martin can). I'm sure Mauer is a great athlete, but Martin is better because he can handle the infield.

Johann
07-17-2008, 08:18 PM
1b ryan howard

nevermind, didnt know he was 29.
ill go with the flow, prince fielder.

The Intimidator
07-17-2008, 08:25 PM
yeah, fielder stands alone in this class, at least right now.

cwilson21
07-17-2008, 08:31 PM
Just because he can throw, has above avg speed and is tall?



Most QBs aren't athletic, I doubt Mauer can play the infield like Martin can.

I would love to see Mauer try to play 3B (a great defensive 3B like Martin can). I'm sure Mauer is a great athlete, but Martin is better because he can handle the infield.

I should've put an * or a :D to indicate I was joking but I wouldn't doubt Mauer's athleticism. He also had the potential to be a basketball player at the college level if he would've chosen that route and b-ball takes some athleticism. Until he gets a chance to play the hot corner, I don't know how you can say that Martin is a better athlete based on him playing multiple positions.

lavell12
07-17-2008, 08:46 PM
C McCann (By far the best hitting catcher)
1B Fielder
2B Uggla
SS Ramirez
3B Wright
OF Braun
OF Sizemore
OF Bruce

GHGHCP
07-17-2008, 09:00 PM
I should've put an * or a :D to indicate I was joking but I wouldn't doubt Mauer's athleticism. He also had the potential to be a basketball player at the college level if he would've chosen that route and b-ball takes some athleticism. Until he gets a chance to play the hot corner, I don't know how you can say that Martin is a better athlete based on him playing multiple positions.

Oh no question he is a good athlete, but pointing out he can play QB or Basketball when being tall in both of those positions is a huge advantage and in today's QB game almost a requirement when the linemen are so huge doesn't tell the whole story, is Tom Brady considered a great athlete or a great QB, there is a difference. Playing the infield like Martin can defensively is a good way to tell how athletic someone is.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-17-2008, 10:19 PM
i may be a homer, but i backed my pick up with legitimate statistical evidence. give me someone else under the age of 25 who has accomplished as much as pedroia has at second base...

Your not a homer at all for picking Pedroia. Ugfan likes to insult people, thats his thing. I agree with Pedroia.

Sportscenterman
07-17-2008, 10:28 PM
C McCann (By far the best hitting catcher)
1B Fielder
2B Uggla
SS Ramirez
3B Wright
OF Braun
OF Sizemore
OF Bruce

Didn't you see uggla in the asg? I know it was only one game but I strongly beliebe in Cano. Hard to back him up with this off year. But we have seen what he can do.

IamTurboman
07-17-2008, 10:30 PM
all of the good catchers are under 25! The pos. kills the knees!

WillRain
07-18-2008, 03:10 AM
25 and under, best player by OPS at each position on the team:
(at least 250 PA)

C - Brian McCann (other candidtaes: Soto, Mauer)
1B - Prince Fielder (Cabrera)
2B - Howie Kendrick
3B - David Wright (Longoria)
SS - Hanley Ramirez (Reyes)
LF - Carlos Quintin
CF - Grady Sizemore (BJ Upton (last year)
RF - Nick Markakis
DH - Ryan Braun

Pitchers by ERA (my choices bolded):

Volquez
Lincecum
Danks
Hernandez
Jurriens
Hamels
Billingsley
E. Santana
Lester

Last Year-
Carmona
Hamels
Kazmir
Cain
Verlander
Hernandez

Relievers-
Soria
Morrow
Chamberlain
Hinshaw
Wade
Howell

brandonwarne52
07-18-2008, 03:19 AM
Uggla is closer to 30 than 25.

PhillyUD26
07-18-2008, 03:34 AM
Just because he can throw, has above avg speed and is tall?



Most QBs aren't athletic, I doubt Mauer can play the infield like Martin can.

I would love to see Mauer try to play 3B (a great defensive 3B like Martin can). I'm sure Mauer is a great athlete, but Martin is better because he can handle the infield.

Brandon Inge can play 3b and C...not THAT big of a deal....and it doesn't make Inge a better player in people's eyes. I'll take a catcher with a batting title over one who has a better all around game.

PhillyUD26
07-18-2008, 03:36 AM
Actually pretty sure Pedroia is the only pick. Weeks sucks right now, and Kinsler has been 26 for almost a month.

Like I said earlier, the person who made the thread said "under or around 25 years old". Therefore I'd take Kinsler over Pedroia on my "All-Future Team"

brandonwarne52
07-18-2008, 03:39 AM
Then I would, too.

boeknows
07-18-2008, 04:10 AM
Just because he can throw, has above avg speed and is tall?



Most QBs aren't athletic, I doubt Mauer can play the infield like Martin can.

I would love to see Mauer try to play 3B (a great defensive 3B like Martin can). I'm sure Mauer is a great athlete, but Martin is better because he can handle the infield.

How can most people make the argument that Martin is a great defensive catcher? If he is then they wouldn't put him at 3rd or anywhere else in the infield. Mauer hasnt been put anywhere else in the infield because it would be stupid for the Twins to take him out of that position.

GHGHCP
07-18-2008, 09:46 AM
Brandon Inge can play 3b and C...not THAT big of a deal....and it doesn't make Inge a better player in people's eyes. I'll take a catcher with a batting title over one who has a better all around game.

Inge is a defensive replacement for an aging team where 3-4 of its players should be DHing. This also is a debate about the 4 "elite" catchers 25 and under.


How can most people make the argument that Martin is a great defensive catcher? If he is then they wouldn't put him at 3rd or anywhere else in the infield. Mauer hasnt been put anywhere else in the infield because it would be stupid for the Twins to take him out of that position.

Lately Martin has been getting his "rest" days playing 3B, it isn't a normal thing. Hasn't Mauer gotten some of his rest days DHing?

Humongo
07-18-2008, 10:07 AM
Mauer is a better defensive catcher than Martin. While 'boeknows' argument holds no water, nor does it make sense, he's right.

DaSox_05
07-18-2008, 12:26 PM
AL
C-Joe Mauer
1B-Miguel Cabrera
2B-Howie Kendrick
SS-Erik Aybar
3B-Evan Longoria
OF-Grady Sizemore
OF-BJ Upton
OF-Nick Markakis
DH-Carlos Quentin

(In no particular order)
SP-Felix Hernandez
SP-Scott Kazmir
SP-Johnny Danks
SP-Joba Chamberlin
SP-Justin Verlander

SU-Joakim Soria
CL-Huston Street

NL
C-Russell Martin
1B-Prince Fielder
2B-Rickie Weeks (There is no good young 2B in the NL)
SS-Hanley Ramirez
3B-David Wright
OF-Ryan Braun
OF-Jay Bruce
OF-Matt Kemp

(In no paticular order)
SP-Cole Hamels
SP-Jair Jurrjens
SP-Edinson Volquez
SP-Tim Lincecum
SP-Mike Pelfrey

SU-Jonathan Broxton
CL-Matt Capps

Ok fellas on my team I didnt take any guys who where on the DL so all the players on the list are active let me know what you think.

Edit: Matt Capps is on the DL. The National League does not have any young closers and Giant fans Brian Wilson is 26!

goldglove212
07-18-2008, 12:52 PM
Kemp and Markakis over both Uptons? Thats a joke! Kemp has no business being on this list

:pity: wow

C - Martin
1b - Fielder
2b - Kendrick (i believe hes 25)
SS - Hanley
3b - Wright
OF - Kemp
OF - Braun
OF - Ellsbury

SP - Lincecum
SP - Felix Hernandez
SP - Volquez
SP - Kazmir
SP - Verlander

SU - Zumaya
CL - Soria

BTW Marmol is 26

Air Adam
07-18-2008, 12:58 PM
Put together the best team you can of guys under or around 25...

C- Russell Martin
1B- Miguel Cabrera
2B- Ian Kinsler
SS- Hanley Ramirez
3B- David Wright
LF- Ryan Braun
CF- Grady Sizemore
RF- Nick Markakis

SP- Cole Hamels
SP- Tim Lincecum
SP- Justin Verlander
SP- Scott Kazmir
SP- Felix Hernandez

SU- Carlos Marmol
CL- Francisco Rodriguez

Pretty good. The only thing I'd change is Corey Hart in right field (even though he's 26). Also Broxton should be the SU. Finally, Volquez over Verlander.

boeknows
07-18-2008, 06:02 PM
Mauer is a better defensive catcher than Martin. While 'boeknows' argument holds no water, nor does it make sense, he's right.

What do u mean it doesnt make sense. If they are going to play him why not play him at his best position. If everyone keeps saying he is the best defensive catcher then why would u play him at a different position while he is in the lineup.

nascar10294
07-19-2008, 08:49 AM
C Joe Mauer (people must have forgot that he won a battle title already)
1B Miguel Cabera
2B Ian Kinsler (he's 26 but if you're that picky Kendrick)
3B Evan Longoria
SS Hanley Ramierez
OF Jay Bruce
OF Nick MarKakis
OF Ryan Bruan

SP Feliex Hernandez
SP Joba Chamberlin
SP Jon Lester
SP Cole Hamels
SP Edison Volquez

RP Joakin Soria
RP Joel Zumaya

GHGHCP
07-19-2008, 09:17 AM
What do u mean it doesnt make sense. If they are going to play him why not play him at his best position. If everyone keeps saying he is the best defensive catcher then why would u play him at a different position while he is in the lineup.

He plays 3B on his "rest" day, did you not read my reply? The fact that he can play a great defensive 3B (and SS) is a testament to how athletic he is.

Dodgers_310
07-19-2008, 12:39 PM
C- Russell Martin
1B- Miguel Cabrera
2B- Dustin Pedroia
SS- Hanley Ramirez
3B- David Wright
LF- Ryan Braun
CF- Grady Sizemore
RF- Hunter Pence

SP- Cole Hamels
SP- Tim Lincecum
SP- Justin Verlander
SP- Clayton Kershaw
SP- Felix Hernandez

SU- Jonathan Broxton
CL- Francisco Rodriguez

IndiansFan337
07-19-2008, 02:21 PM
Geovany Soto over Mauer is laughable.

Mauer is the best catcher under 25. Better than McCann, better than Martin, better than Soto.

Only if he can stay healthy. That's been his only problem at the ML level.

CY24
07-19-2008, 02:48 PM
Just because he can throw, has above avg speed and is tall?



Most QBs aren't athletic, I doubt Mauer can play the infield like Martin can.

I would love to see Mauer try to play 3B (a great defensive 3B like Martin can). I'm sure Mauer is a great athlete, but Martin is better because he can handle the infield.

Martin is not a better athlete than Maeur. He is short AND fat.

CY24
07-19-2008, 02:53 PM
Ill admit I was wrong... Kemp is sick and will, eventually be a star. J Up has more talent and is much younger (4 years younger). But, right now, Kemp belongs on the list over J Baby.

GHGHCP
07-19-2008, 03:09 PM
Martin is not a better athlete than Maeur. He is short AND fat.


Ill admit I was wrong... Kemp is sick and will, eventually be a star. J Up has more talent and is much younger (4 years younger). But, right now, Kemp belongs on the list over J Baby.

You're wrong about Martin also. Upton is closer to 3 years then 4 years younger btw.

brandonwarne52
07-19-2008, 05:18 PM
You're wrong about Martin also.

That's like saying Nick Punto is a better athlete than Martin because he can play OF and all IF positions.

GHGHCP
07-19-2008, 05:43 PM
That's like saying Nick Punto is a better athlete than Martin because he can play OF and all IF positions.

No, it isn't. Brandon I've respected your post over these months so I'll just say you gotta trust me on this. After watching him play 3B (and SS if you come early during BP when he shags balls) there is no question he has greater agility and athleticism. The best of the 4 elite catchers in the league atm.

Even CAIN=FUTURE gave him a compliment and getting a Dodger compliment from him is like squeezing blood from a turnip.

Is Mauer the better hitter with the better arm? yes of course. However Martin has the edge with speed, agility and athleticism. In my theoretical futures team I'd rather have some utility with Martin who can play a great defensive 3B and SS if Evan or Hanley go down. :D

brandonwarne52
07-19-2008, 05:48 PM
However Martin has the edge with speed, agility and athleticism.

Quantify this, please.

GHGHCP
07-19-2008, 05:58 PM
Quantify this, please.

Do you want video of his great defensive plays this year, or boring stats like zone rating and stolen bases?

It would take some time getting the videos of course, ZR is higher suggesting higher agility and I can argue that having more stolen base attempts (knowing he has a good chance of swiping a bag) vs your guy's higher success rate (picking his moments to take a bag) is a better way to judge speed short of getting their 90 foot dash times.

Seamhead
07-19-2008, 06:01 PM
Zone rating for catchers? Whaaaaat?

CY24
07-19-2008, 06:01 PM
Im not sure about Martins athleticism because I dont watch him play much..... But I will say that you cannot deny that he is fat. He may be a fat athlete, I dont know. But the word fat will always go before his name. So, to me, he is just Fat Russ.

brandonwarne52
07-19-2008, 06:02 PM
Mauer doesn't steal because he hits in front of Morneau. Not because he can't.

Either way, a stolen base here and there or playing a little 3B doesn't make up for the 15 point gap in career OPS+. Not even close.

Mauer's taken groundballs in the IF before; he just happens to be an elite catcher who is going to stay there as long as he can.

boeknows
07-19-2008, 06:05 PM
He plays 3B on his "rest" day, did you not read my reply? The fact that he can play a great defensive 3B (and SS) is a testament to how athletic he is.

I guess i didnt realize what u were talking about for his rest day at first. I see what ur saying now though.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-19-2008, 06:08 PM
No, it isn't. Brandon I've respected your post over these months so I'll just say you gotta trust me on this. After watching him play 3B (and SS if you come early during BP when he shags balls) there is no question he has greater agility and athleticism. The best of the 4 elite catchers in the league atm.

Even CAIN=FUTURE gave him a compliment and getting a Dodger compliment from him is like squeezing blood from a turnip.

Is Mauer the better hitter with the better arm? yes of course. However Martin has the edge with speed, agility and athleticism. In my theoretical futures team I'd rather have some utility with Martin who can play a great defensive 3B and SS if Evan or Hanley go down. :D

Its true. You are talking about Martin right? I will NOT compliment a dodger unless its 100% deserved, and his performance in the ASG earned him my compliment.

What about Matt Cain on the futures team? I see Verlander geting a lot of mentions, Iv seen Kershaw a couple times. Cain is pitching a lot better than Verlander this year, and hes 3 years younger...Verlander is 26, right? Well Cain has pitched very well of late. Hes has like a 3 ERA in his last 8 or so starts. Hes also been among the leauge leaders in K's the whole season.

I just don't see why everyone leaves him off. Why?

SportsFan1988
07-19-2008, 06:17 PM
My future's team. Players 28 and younger.

C - Russell Martin
1b - Miguel Cabrera
2b - Ian Kinsler
3b - Evan Longoria
Ss - Hanley Ramirez
Lf - Ryan Braun
Cf - Grady Sizemore/Curtis Granderson
Rf - Jay Bruce

1.Tim Lincecum
2.Edinson Volquez
3.Felix Hernandez
4.Ervin Santana
5.Scott Kazmir

SU - Jonathon Papelbon
CL - K-Rod

CAIN=FUTURE
07-19-2008, 06:25 PM
My future's team. Players 28 and younger.

C - Russell Martin
1b - Miguel Cabrera
2b - Ian Kinsler
3b - Evan Longoria
Ss - Hanley Ramirez
Lf - Ryan Braun
Cf - Grady Sizemore/Curtis Granderson
Rf - Jay Bruce

1.Tim Lincecum
2.Edinson Volquez
3.Felix Hernandez
4.Ervin Santana
5.Scott Kazmir

SU - Jonathon Papelbon
CL - K-Rod

Those are both head scratchers. Papelbon isnt a setup man! And Erivin Santan should not be mention with those pitchers, id be reluctant to put Volquez up there also. Heres a short list of pitchers more deserving than Santana.

Matt Cain, Justin Verlander, Cole Hamels, Rich Harden, Dan Haren, Jared Weaver, Chad Billingsley, Fausto Carmona, Ubaldo Jimenez, John Danks, Clay Buckholtz, John Lester just to name a few.

Halladay
07-19-2008, 06:33 PM
Those are both head scratchers. Papelbon isnt a setup man! And Erivin Santan should not be mention with those pitchers, id be reluctant to put Volquez up there also. Heres a short list of pitchers more deserving than Santana.

Matt Cain, Justin Verlander, Cole Hamels, Rich Harden, Dan Haren, Jared Weaver, Chad Billingsley, Fausto Carmona, Ubaldo Jimenez, John Danks, Clay Buckholtz, John Lester just to name a few.

Add Dustin McGowan and Shaun Marcum to that list too.

SportsFan1988
07-19-2008, 06:38 PM
Those are both head scratchers. Papelbon isnt a setup man! And Erivin Santan should not be mention with those pitchers, id be reluctant to put Volquez up there also. Heres a short list of pitchers more deserving than Santana.

Matt Cain, Justin Verlander, Cole Hamels, Rich Harden, Dan Haren, Jared Weaver, Chad Billingsley, Fausto Carmona, Ubaldo Jimenez, John Danks, Clay Buckholtz, John Lester just to name a few.

No kidding. He's the second best option behind K-Rod, so I put him as the set-up man. If I were to chose a set-up man it would probably be Carlos Marmol.

Ervin Santana is having a fantastic year, he's 11-3 with a 3.34era 129.1innings 111hits with 122k's. :drool:

And how can you be reluctant to not put Volquez on your futures list, when he's shown no signs of slowing down or getting hurt? there has only been speculation, nothing else, no signs, nothing. :confused:

Humongo
07-19-2008, 06:40 PM
Do you want video of his great defensive plays this year, or boring stats like zone rating and stolen bases?

It would take some time getting the videos of course, ZR is higher suggesting higher agility and I can argue that having more stolen base attempts (knowing he has a good chance of swiping a bag) vs your guy's higher success rate (picking his moments to take a bag) is a better way to judge speed short of getting their 90 foot dash times.

I don't really see how Martin's ability to play 3B has anything to do with him being a better defensive catcher. His primary position is catcher, and while he could be Rolen v 2.0 over at third, that doesn't have any bearing on what he does behind the plate. Pretty much all of the defensive metrics show Martin and Mauer to be at the very least about the same, if anything, Mauer being better. Mauer's got a better arm as well. But like I said, I don't really understand what impact his versatility has on this comparison. If you're comparing them as two isolated ball players, and you ignore what positions, they play, league factors, and every other variable, then versatility couldn't hurt your argument, but I just don't see how it helps when comparing two catcher's (and more specifically their defense).

brandonwarne52
07-19-2008, 06:46 PM
Another good Humongo post, brought to you by ProOverreactionDaily, where we overreact to Pro Sports rumors on an hourly basis.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled homer-ing.

Humongo
07-19-2008, 06:50 PM
Add Dustin McGowan and Shaun Marcum to that list too.

Why? I don't even really question Santana's placement on his team. Dustin McGowan is about a full year older than Santana, and yet Santana has nearly twice the ML innings, and has better numbers all around both career, and this season (ERA, WHIP, K/BB, K/9). And it's not like Santana just came out of nowhere. He was a top prospect who had shown signs of brilliance, but came off the tracks in 2007. I'd probably still take Santana over Marcum just because Marcum's only thrown 310 IP as a starter scattered over three seasons, and I'd want to see what he does in a full season as a starter first. But at least with Marcum you could make an argument in his favor (based on his numbers the last two seasons).

GHGHCP
07-19-2008, 06:56 PM
I don't really see how Martin's ability to play 3B has anything to do with him being a better defensive catcher. His primary position is catcher, and while he could be Rolen v 2.0 over at third, that doesn't have any bearing on what he does behind the plate. Pretty much all of the defensive metrics show Martin and Mauer to be at the very least about the same, if anything, Mauer being better. Mauer's got a better arm as well. But like I said, I don't really understand what impact his versatility has on this comparison. If you're comparing them as two isolated ball players, and you ignore what positions, they play, league factors, and every other variable, then versatility couldn't hurt your argument, but I just don't see how it helps when comparing two catcher's (and more specifically their defense).

What can I say? I like utility. :D

CAIN=FUTURE
07-19-2008, 07:24 PM
No kidding. He's the second best option behind K-Rod, so I put him as the set-up man. If I were to chose a set-up man it would probably be Carlos Marmol.

Ervin Santana is having a fantastic year, he's 11-3 with a 3.34era 129.1innings 111hits with 122k's. :drool:

And how can you be reluctant to not put Volquez on your futures list, when he's shown no signs of slowing down or getting hurt? there has only been speculation, nothing else, no signs, nothing. :confused:

I dont think Volquez will keep this up in the future. Im not saying he wont be a front end pitcher, but he wont be top 5. One good year dosnt get Santana on this list. Dont forget how fantastic he was last year. The name of the thread is All Futures team.

No one ansewerd my quetion about Matt Cain.

PhillyUD26
07-19-2008, 07:33 PM
I dont think Volquez will keep this up in the future. Im not saying he wont be a front end pitcher, but he wont be top 5. One good year dosnt get Santana on this list. Dont forget how fantastic he was last year. The name of the thread is All Futures team.

No one ansewerd my quetion about Matt Cain.

Cain http://www.racemath.info/graphics/signs_symbols/Sign_notEqual.GIF Future