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stanpapi
07-08-2008, 10:04 PM
With the coming All Star break, I think we should take stock, because you know they are. Overall, I've got to say things are a bit of a mess (even though the team has improved).

For starters, the Willis-Cabrera deal boils down to this: For all those players, including Maybin and Miller, we've got a guy learning to play 1B and an expensive pitcher who's career is in doubt. And that's for what, $180 million. Then you've got the Renteria deal stinking up the place, along with the Sheff trade, the Guillen signing, the Pudge signing, and the Inge signing.

I mean, I was in favour of some of the trades, not so much the signings. But whatever, it looks like we gave up a ton of good bargains for a bunch of overpriced dookie. The state of things is grim.

babygranderson
07-08-2008, 11:20 PM
let's sprinkle some sunshine on this situation, if for no other reason than "homer" agenda building: Before I post - please know 2 things: 1. My spelling sucks when I am sober. 2. I am not sober.

1. I am probably wrong, but wasn't Sheff a FA signing? If so, too much money was wasted, indeed, but at least we didn't give up prospects. Again, I could be wrong.

2. Renteria deal SUCKS. Bad. I'd love to have Jair in the rotation about now. To boot, Hernandez is damn good prospect, right???? OUCH. Silver Lining? Not much...but even if it is more luck than skill/planning, who would've EVER guessed Galaraga would have shaped into a "virtual" replacement for Jurrgens?

3. The Cabrera/Willis deal. Granted...right about now, I'd love to have (Todd Bridges) Willis Jackson in our rotation vs. Dontrell, but let's focus on the aquisition of Cabrera entirely. What did we give up: Miller & Maybin. He's only 23, but 5-7 pitchers with a 5.00 ERA and a 1.50 + WHIP are a dime a dozen. (and I think he's a wuss mentally - Jimmy Leyland evidently thought so, too). Maybin...is he the next Griffey or a very skinny, gangly, injury prone kid who won't ever really materialize?

Let's pretend for one minute I am not drunk on Miller Lite; instead I am drunk on Tiger's Kool-Aid.

I honestly do think Cabrera, given his age and adjustment to AL and the spotlight of a huge contract, is like acquiring a Pujols caliber player...it would be great if he played 3b, but a bat like that at 1B is more than OK. Miller and Maybin have light years to go before this trade is a bad one for us. The truth is that none of us will know how to evaluate this deal until 3 or 4 years down the road...but it is hard to criticize DD for getting a pujols-esque talent (who is "24") for two extremely unproven players and a bag of chips.

Silver lining about the money paid to D-Train?? (crickets chirping in the background)

Silver lining surprise...What about dolsi?

Guillen is a solid player in his prime - you gotta pay for those kinda cats...

(Inge is a waste of cash and Pudge is way overpaid at this point...I can't spin those facts)

Maybe a good question is this: Given the A's just traded Harden to the Cubs (is the minor league player the centerpiece of the deal for the A's???) it looks like the Cubs got Harden and Gaudin (solid arm) for a bag of chips...Wonder what we could've offered????

Did I mention I have been drinking? Did I mention I am a out-of-the-closet homer?

Bondomania
07-09-2008, 08:50 AM
i like what you said babygrandy... considering the abismal start this team got off to, you gotta give them props for getting their act together and actually getting back to .500.. Look the twins and chisox are hot right now, and so are we, but all it takes is one losing streak by the white sox and we are right back in it... i will comment more after i get back from class...

Bondomania
07-09-2008, 12:35 PM
The pudge signing was the turn around of this organization, so i don't see how you can say that was a poor idea. Not to mention he is still hitting fairly well, considering he is hitting .280+ with some power. Carlos is playing 3rd pretty well, granite it took a few weeks, but he looks good down there. The sheff signing was working well until that injury last year, he might need to be released. Then renteria needs to be traded or released as well... Hollimon or Santiago could hit .250 and they offer more range

As far as Maybin and Miller, they haven't really prooven much at the Major league level. They are just that, prospects, we can't judge the trade until both players contribute or don't contribute in the majors. Miller has been unimpressive so far this season, and Maybin is in the minors. Rabelo got sent down because he sucked, Trahern has an ERA over 6 at AAA, Badenhop isn't doing much in the majors, and De La Cruz was alright in AAA but once again struggled at the major league level, and then got sent back down... so yes they got those prospects, but as high of a ceiling as some of them have, they still do have a bust potential as well, that some people forget

smarkow
07-09-2008, 12:53 PM
Here's my take on the situation. To start, Stan has been incredibly negative this year and like he did, I could probably find a negative to everything the tigers have done the past few years.

Lets start with the major trades this past offseason:
Renteria - obviously a bad move. Jair has been nothing but outstanding and someone we'd love to have on our team right now. Holliman and Santiago are both capable of playing short, would be performing just as well as renteria at the plate, and would have MUCH more range. Just a bad move overall.
Cabrera/Willis - Obviously, Willis has been a bust thus far. Will he ever make it back to the majors? Time will tell, but it won't happen this year. He needs to get in shape and work on EVERYTHING. Cabrera, thus far, has been ok. A complete success? not yet. But he's showing signs of why we traded for him. He's got is average up to almost .290 now and is really hitting for power. Two home runs last night, one of which was to right field. And complain all you want, but how many errors has cabrera made a 1B? I can guarantee you can count them on one hand and pretty sure it won't even be the full hand. For a guy who has never played the position, he's looked pretty good. THis is his first year in the american league. I would not be surprised if he finishes the year at .315/35/105. This guy could get hot and stay hot for a while. The weather is really warming up and so is he. Now lets talk about who we gave up for him. Miller/Maybin. Neither have been outstanding this year. Maybin is still in the minors. Miller is 5-7 with a .500 era. The tigers wanted to win the WS this year. Maybin would not be playing in the majors, and Miller would be our 5th starter, at that. with the way we started, his record would be much more like Verlander's, potentially worse than that.

Sheffield - we traded guys to the Yankees for him. As said above, until the injury last season, sheff was pretty good. overall, sucks, but what can you do.

Guillen - i don't know how you can continue to ***** about this guy. He's the most consistent hitter on our team!!!! and he has played every position we've asked him. WHile he looked pitiful at 3B for a few weeks, he is looking pretty damn good these days. snagging grounders like its his job....which it is. The guy made the all star team!

Sheffies Chef
07-09-2008, 01:46 PM
here here! Guillen is the tigers best PURE hitter. He doesn't have the highest average, the most dingers, or the most rbi's. but he is consistently second to fourth on our team in those categories. And his defense IS improving. if he were to play third next year, i'd just like him to work on his arm strength and power with the bat. he has decent power, but 25-30 homers is usually expected from the third baseman. i could settle with about 20 from him though knowing he isn't a big power hitter. An ideal line for Carlos as a hitter for me would be .320/20/80-100. he has the potential for those numbers (especially the average), but i'm not sure if he could hit that. more realistically you're looking at .310/15/85. i would be happy with that as long as cabby stays hot and contributes the big power from first. idk, JMHO.

stanpapi
07-09-2008, 08:51 PM
The point about Cabrera isn't that he's a bad 1B, just that we didn't/don't need him there. Having him there creates a logjam. It also forces us to play Guillen at 3rd, and he's no good there either.That's the point. This trade no longer fills a need or solves a problem. It creates new ones. As for Guillen making the AS team, sure, he still has a good bat, but he's no 3B and you guys know it.

scottie
07-10-2008, 12:40 AM
let's sprinkle some sunshine on this situation, if for no other reason than "homer" agenda building: Before I post - please know 2 things: 1. My spelling sucks when I am sober. 2. I am not sober.

1. I am probably wrong, but wasn't Sheff a FA signing? If so, too much money was wasted, indeed, but at least we didn't give up prospects. Again, I could be wrong.

2. Renteria deal SUCKS. Bad. I'd love to have Jair in the rotation about now. To boot, Hernandez is damn good prospect, right???? OUCH. Silver Lining? Not much...but even if it is more luck than skill/planning, who would've EVER guessed Galaraga would have shaped into a "virtual" replacement for Jurrgens?

3. The Cabrera/Willis deal. Granted...right about now, I'd love to have (Todd Bridges) Willis Jackson in our rotation vs. Dontrell, but let's focus on the aquisition of Cabrera entirely. What did we give up: Miller & Maybin. He's only 23, but 5-7 pitchers with a 5.00 ERA and a 1.50 + WHIP are a dime a dozen. (and I think he's a wuss mentally - Jimmy Leyland evidently thought so, too). Maybin...is he the next Griffey or a very skinny, gangly, injury prone kid who won't ever really materialize?

Let's pretend for one minute I am not drunk on Miller Lite; instead I am drunk on Tiger's Kool-Aid.

I honestly do think Cabrera, given his age and adjustment to AL and the spotlight of a huge contract, is like acquiring a Pujols caliber player...it would be great if he played 3b, but a bat like that at 1B is more than OK. Miller and Maybin have light years to go before this trade is a bad one for us. The truth is that none of us will know how to evaluate this deal until 3 or 4 years down the road...but it is hard to criticize DD for getting a pujols-esque talent (who is "24") for two extremely unproven players and a bag of chips.

Silver lining about the money paid to D-Train?? (crickets chirping in the background)

Silver lining surprise...What about dolsi?

Guillen is a solid player in his prime - you gotta pay for those kinda cats...

(Inge is a waste of cash and Pudge is way overpaid at this point...I can't spin those facts)

Maybe a good question is this: Given the A's just traded Harden to the Cubs (is the minor league player the centerpiece of the deal for the A's???) it looks like the Cubs got Harden and Gaudin (solid arm) for a bag of chips...Wonder what we could've offered????

Did I mention I have been drinking? Did I mention I am a out-of-the-closet homer?

Great post, that was funny

scottie
07-10-2008, 12:42 AM
here here! Guillen is the tigers best PURE hitter. He doesn't have the highest average, the most dingers, or the most rbi's. but he is consistently second to fourth on our team in those categories. And his defense IS improving. if he were to play third next year, i'd just like him to work on his arm strength and power with the bat. he has decent power, but 25-30 homers is usually expected from the third baseman. i could settle with about 20 from him though knowing he isn't a big power hitter. An ideal line for Carlos as a hitter for me would be .320/20/80-100. he has the potential for those numbers (especially the average), but i'm not sure if he could hit that. more realistically you're looking at .310/15/85. i would be happy with that as long as cabby stays hot and contributes the big power from first. idk, JMHO.

I think Mags is the best pure hitter on the team

Bondomania
07-10-2008, 08:41 AM
are you kidding me stan??? did you not see Guillen last night?? he has looked real good at 3rd the last couple of weeks... i don't get why you are being so negative about the situation, sure it creates a log jam, Larish will now have to DH when he officially makes it... but guillen, outside of those first two weeks, has looked pretty solid there

stanpapi
07-10-2008, 10:21 AM
Being so negative? I'm just not a homer, bondo. Guillen's glove isn't the answer at third. Sure, he's going to make some plays, he's a major leaguer. But the plan was never to put him at third. He was supposed to play first, along with some other guys. And trading all those guys for Cabrera to play first is a problem now, as it will be in the future.

mrsmiggy
07-10-2008, 10:49 AM
First of all miguel is a perfect fit for the tigers.now that he is heating up.he has one a ton of games for the tigers.
sheffield i agree is a waste of money but they didnt give away much for himhumberto sanchez to the yankees. hes always hurt and wouldve never helped the tigers anyway.carlos guillen is a perfect tiger ,along with polly.Brandon inge is not a waste of money. he can play anywhere and might be the possible catcher for next year.clete thomas is awesome.the tigers need to play marcus thames more and put thomas in about the 7th inning for defense.the renteria deal was horrible,he needs to be released or traded hes killing us.jack wilson would be good or mike holliman/santiago,they cant hit any worse than renteria.they shouldve kept guillen at ss and put brandon back at 3rd.as far as pitching jones needs to be gone after this year,hes not a closer hes too scary.are bullpen is starting to look great.chicago and minnesota need to start being concerned.oh yeah grandy is the best cf around i think

Bondomania
07-10-2008, 12:53 PM
we didn't trade anyone away that was supposed the play first... we traded some pitchers, a backup catcher at best, and CF... so what guillen has to play third and miggy first... its not really blocking anyone other than Larish, and he didn't look major leagur ready... DD drafts well and his staff will have the minors restocked in a year or two... we already have a lot of good, high ceiling guys there, just a matter of time until they will be ready... not as gloom and doom as you make it seem

smarkow
07-10-2008, 01:32 PM
Being so negative? I'm just not a homer, bondo. Guillen's glove isn't the answer at third. Sure, he's going to make some plays, he's a major leaguer. But the plan was never to put him at third. He was supposed to play first, along with some other guys. And trading all those guys for Cabrera to play first is a problem now, as it will be in the future.

You're right, the plan was to play cabrera at 3rd and Guillen at 1st. That didnt work and we switched the two guys. However many days Guillen was going to have off while at 1B is going to be the same that cabrera will have at 1b. however many days Cabrera would have had off at 3B will be the same for Guillen at 3b. No, we didnt draft him to play 1st base, but thats where he's at and he's playing pretty damn well there. And after the first few games, Guillen is playing pretty damn well there too.

I think you're absolutely wrong about playing cabrera at 1st going to cause a problem for the future.

smarkow
07-10-2008, 02:52 PM
First off, let me saw that I do understand where Stan is coming from. We made some trades for guys that were supposed to fill in holes: Renteria at SS, Willis at SP, Cabrera at 3B, Sheffield at DH; and honestly, it hasnt worked out as DD thought it would. However, as poorly as we started, Leyland has pushed the right buttons and has gotten these guys to turn it around. Sure, Cabrera is playing 1B, but he's doing that quite well. Sure, Guillen isn't playing 1B or SS, rather he's playing 3B. and has been playing there quite well after a few rough weeks to start. not sure if anyone is watching the game right now, but Guillen has made at least 4 good to very good plays at 3B today.
So no, things havent gone exactly as DD planned when making these trades. however, i'm pretty happy with how its going right now.
Again I say, Guillen is the most consistent Tiger we have, and has been since he became a Tiger.

stanpapi
07-10-2008, 04:52 PM
Oh guys, jeez, the problem is we could have worked more than a few good-bat-weak-glove guys in at 1B, Thames for instance, Guillen, and there are others. Suddenly, you've got a ton of guys you can't really use because Cabrera's over there. And then you can't really DH Guillen, which is where he's headed, because you need him to play 3B. And despite some good plays as of late, his D is fading, has been for a while, and I doubt he'll be playing 3B next year.

Together, that doesn't gel with getting rid of all those guys for a 1B-er, because we were already rich in 1Bers (who, for the most part, would have worked just fine with a combination of Guillen, Thames, etc.). I have no doubt Cabrera will learn the position just fine, that he will hit .300-plus, crank 30-35 dingers a year. It's just that he's redundant at 1B, and he creates more redundancies. This didn't add to our depth, it subtracted. A guy like Larish doesn't have a future here. And now you have to hope for the best with Thames and Guillen in the field, because that is just not their strong suits. Combined, that's what makes it a failure, and it doesn't matter whether Cabrera matches his FLA numbers or not. He's a great hitter, but adding him creates holes, redundancies, and then forces you to compromise your line-up elsewhere. We little need for him as a 1Ber. Again, great bat, but we've got way, way too many great-bat-no-glove guys as it is.

smarkow
07-10-2008, 04:59 PM
well. either way, i'm over this discussion. I'm more pissed that we're about to blow this game to the Twins.

Epic89
07-10-2008, 05:21 PM
I will never forgive Todd Jones for what he just did. I'm surprised I'm ever going to forgive the Tigers for what they just did. I feel nauseous right now

One Nut Kruk
07-10-2008, 05:40 PM
Todd Jones is the biggest piece of crap I've ever witnessed play the game. He is the poster boy for why saves are the most overrated stat in sports and the few games that he does blow, are always huge games. I wouldn't even want the fucher as a 6th inning guy.

As for the lineup, it's fine. Cabrera will be a stud for many years and Guillen is fine over at 3rd because he doesn't have to have as much range as he did at short. As for what we gave up, Rabelo, Badenhop, Trahern and De La Cruz are all poo and Miller and Maybin look like they could challenge for the next Todd Van Poppel act....all hype. What Cabrera has done for his first 4 years in the bigs, let alone what he will do over the next decade, could amount to more than what those 2 will ever do. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Maybin is the next Mike Cameron.

Epic89
07-10-2008, 05:45 PM
Todd Jones is the biggest piece of crap I've ever witnessed play the game. He is the poster boy for why saves are the most overrated stat in sports and the few games that he does blow, are always huge games. I wouldn't even want the fucher as a 6th inning guy.


Truer words have never been spoken.

Bondomania
07-11-2008, 12:50 AM
that is true, like last year, in cleveland when jones blew that 4 run lead in a pretty big game... I think jones is a choke artist and when the game is truly on the line he doesn't have the pitches to get out of a jam... plain and simple... demote him, promote zumaya move dolsi into the 8th inning role, keep rodney as your 7th, and mop up time goes to Jones..

~Troy
07-11-2008, 01:58 AM
It also forces us to play Guillen at 3rd, and he's no good there either..

Did he or did he not make the all star team at 3B?:eyebrow:

Epic89
07-11-2008, 02:35 AM
I think the Renteria deal should've never happened, though I love the guy. Ramon Santiago had not been known as a hitter before this season but he's done damn well this season, knows how to bunt, is very fast, and plays superb defense. Fine for a #9 hitter. They should've had him as starting SS from the start. We could certainly use Jair Jurjjens right now (maybe we could've included him in the Florida deal and kept Andrew Miller).

The Dodgers and Blue Jays are both looking for an SS, and AJ Burnett or Derek Lowe sounds REALLY good right now.

Bondomania
07-11-2008, 09:25 AM
all things considering, i don't want eddie bonine back as our fifth starter... he is pretty much pitching BP, and if we are going to make a serious run at the playoffs then we gotta strike quick... if you notice, both the brewcrew and the cubbies made moves now to bolster their rotation... instead we are going to sit around and wait... i say screw that, get aggressive, get a SP like Burnett and let's make a serious run at the playoffs... it will never happen with a guy like Bonine pitching every fifth day, and currently the tigers website is saying that Bonine is the most likely candidate for the 5th spot.. which seriously just makes me sick.. i would rather have porcello up here if we are going to do that

stanpapi
07-11-2008, 09:34 AM
We traded away all the 6th starter people.

theoldgoalie
07-11-2008, 06:07 PM
i like what you said babygrandy... considering the abismal start this team got off to, you gotta give them props for getting their act together and actually getting back to .500.. Look the twins and chisox are hot right now, and so are we, but all it takes is one losing streak by the white sox and we are right back in it... i will comment more after i get back from class...

But the bottom line is this.....Our bullpen needs work, we have all been saying this since spring training you know that Bondo, you too Papi and Smarkow and Kruk, Shef, etc...The Whitesox are showing that as well. they are able to help their starters out and the bullpen is able to keep the lead. Same with the Twins. ***** all you want about the trade. Maybin is NOT going to be the five-tool player we had hoped for and it looks like Florida has resigned to that fact. Miller is decent, but far from good and he has had plenty of big-league opportunities, the trade for Renteria came at a price, but fans were signing accolades to DD for pulling off that deal and Willis is still young, he could come around. I will be patient on that front.

Cabrera is a HUGE talent and will only get better here in the American League as he gets adjusted. Moving him to first was a smart move, it will keep him healthy because we got him for his bat, not his fielding abilites. The guys we have in our lineup are going to be around for awhile longer, and it's nice to know that guys like Thomas, Joyce, Raeburn and Hollimon are waiting in the wings as guys like Ordonez, Polanco and Guillen get older.

The Sheffield trade was great for the first year, but age has caught up with him and soon he will be gone. Get some experienced bullpen help and I guarantee, the turn around that the Tigers are making right now will stay for the rest of the season. The players are out there, we just need to make one or two more moves to get those pieces in place. Ousting Grilli and Miner were good starts.

One Nut Kruk
07-11-2008, 06:24 PM
Oh guys, jeez, the problem is we could have worked more than a few good-bat-weak-glove guys in at 1B, Thames for instance, Guillen, and there are others. Suddenly, you've got a ton of guys you can't really use because Cabrera's over there. And then you can't really DH Guillen, which is where he's headed, because you need him to play 3B. And despite some good plays as of late, his D is fading, has been for a while, and I doubt he'll be playing 3B next year.

Together, that doesn't gel with getting rid of all those guys for a 1B-er, because we were already rich in 1Bers (who, for the most part, would have worked just fine with a combination of Guillen, Thames, etc.). I have no doubt Cabrera will learn the position just fine, that he will hit .300-plus, crank 30-35 dingers a year. It's just that he's redundant at 1B, and he creates more redundancies. This didn't add to our depth, it subtracted. A guy like Larish doesn't have a future here. And now you have to hope for the best with Thames and Guillen in the field, because that is just not their strong suits. Combined, that's what makes it a failure, and it doesn't matter whether Cabrera matches his FLA numbers or not. He's a great hitter, but adding him creates holes, redundancies, and then forces you to compromise your line-up elsewhere. We little need for him as a 1Ber. Again, great bat, but we've got way, way too many great-bat-no-glove guys as it is.

Papi, I hear what you are saying but it's almost as if you're comparing Miguel Cabrera to Aubrey Huff or something. He is a one in a million talent at the plate. His first four years in the bigs are comparable to some of the best to ever play the game and he's now showing signs of that in a Tiger uniform. Larish is a good prospect but you build around guys like Cabrera.....that's what you do with superstars, you compromise your lineup around them.....with that being said, you use guys like Larish as trade bait for needs. I'm pretty sure most teams would take Cabrera as their first basemen and if they didn't, it wouldn't be because he would be blocking a 26 year old AAA All Star from playing.

scottie
07-11-2008, 11:07 PM
I will never forgive Todd Jones for what he just did. I'm surprised I'm ever going to forgive the Tigers for what they just did. I feel nauseous right now

Get a life:D