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futureheisman
06-22-2008, 09:15 PM
Needs: Middle Relieve-Biggest need
List of possible names:
Brian Fuentus
Bill Bray
George Sherill
Damso Marte

I just got a fw right there there are some other out there

Nedd#2:A power hitter (If Papi cant come back.)

Raul Ibanez
Griffey
Jason Bay
Milton Bradley
josh willingham
Etc...............

These are just a few names out there. I want to ear all youre suggested players and any rumor you hear....

Tragedy
06-22-2008, 09:20 PM
I don't see any way that we go after a power hitter unless Ortiz is lost for the season.

However, a reliever is probably a must (Though, if Smith pitches well, possibly not). I would DROOL for Bill Bray. He has great stuff.

i am bob
06-22-2008, 09:41 PM
We're Def not getting Bay. Pirates would want too much. But we need a reliever and Fuentes would be a great addition.

Towelie
06-22-2008, 11:13 PM
George Sherill isn't going anywhere near us....

Tragedy
06-22-2008, 11:16 PM
George Sherill isn't going anywhere near us....
Exactly, which is why I didn't even bother saying his name.

He's certainly a trade candidate, but why bother trading within the Division to the better team? Doesn't make sense.

cclipper44
06-22-2008, 11:22 PM
I know that Smith may not be the answer to the relief situation, but I would like to see the Sox try to fix things in house first if at all possible, then explore trade options.

Smith did look pretty damn good yesterday, but I do understand that it could be and more than likely is fool's gold, but hey let's see what he's got for now.

Towelie
06-22-2008, 11:26 PM
I just don't see us really doing much. We have tons of pitching and maybe we could turn it for a power hitting prospect. Like our offense is great, even without Ortiz in the lineup. Our starting pitching is doing it's job. (even though Beckett doesn't seem on to me) and our relief seems to be good, although we could use one good relief pitcher (I vote Gagne :laugh:).

So when all is said and done, I see almost nothing happening.

cocossox
06-23-2008, 12:23 AM
I'd like to see us get D. Marte from Pitt.

quiksilver2491
06-23-2008, 01:53 AM
I don't really see the need to trade for a MRP nevermind any relief pitcher at all. Relief pitchers aren't reliable year to year (exception of elite closers/set up) and trading for them makes it even more risky. I would rather see how Hansen comes along rather then shelling out prospects like we did last year with Gagne for someone like Damaso Marte. Marte is a great pitcher for the Pirates but who is to say he will be the same guy when he puts on a Red Sox uniform. Unless we are talking of someone to a Huston Street caliber im not interested.

As for a power hitter goes I wouldn't be too concerned with that either. Ortiz will be given plenty of time to heal with the way Drew and Youk have been helping carry the load offensively. Even if Ortiz is out for the season I don't think it would be time to push the panic button, we are one of the deepest if not the deepest team in baseball and we will find ways to score runs, our offense without Ortiz is still one of the best in the AL.

RedSoxtober
06-23-2008, 08:04 AM
Exactly, which is why I didn't even bother saying his name.

He's certainly a trade candidate, but why bother trading within the Division to the better team? Doesn't make sense.

I don't even think Sherrill is a trade possibility. Why would they trade a quality LHP reliever (closer or not) who's only entering his first year of arbitration eligibility? Unless they got something huge in return it would be a PR nightmare given that the fans were in revolt over dealing Bedard in the first place.

knittingmill
06-23-2008, 09:12 AM
i hate to say it but i think somebody else is gonna make tek an offer he won't refuse in the offseason. wagner's not tearing up AA so i'd keep an eye open for a majors-ready catching prospect.

Ewagner
06-23-2008, 10:43 AM
I don't think they need a bat to come off the bench. Even with Ortiz out. Drew will continue to strive hitting ahead of manny. he gets more pitches to hit. They also have moss who can come in off the bench and kielty is still in the minors. if he can ever get healthy.

Maybe a veteran RP would be nice. Marte is a good player. he was dominate when he was with the white sox. i just fear the wear on his arm. good mrp only last 3 years. obviously there are always exceptions.

Tragedy
06-23-2008, 11:21 AM
I don't even think Sherrill is a trade possibility. Why would they trade a quality LHP reliever (closer or not) who's only entering his first year of arbitration eligibility? Unless they got something huge in return it would be a PR nightmare given that the fans were in revolt over dealing Bedard in the first place.
I think dealing him IS a possibility given his age. While he is definitely cheap and under team control for a few more seasons, he's already 31 years old.

Relievers are so hit or miss. He could implode next year and never be the same again (It's so difficult to predict the future of relivers). If I'm the O's, while his value is sky high, I trade.

Ewagner
06-23-2008, 12:42 PM
I think dealing him IS a possibility given his age. While he is definitely cheap and under team control for a few more seasons, he's already 31 years old.

Relievers are so hit or miss. He could implode next year and never be the same again (It's so difficult to predict the future of relivers). If I'm the O's, while his value is sky high, I trade.

i agree with this totally. plus i would really be surprised if they would trade him to us unles it was for a good group of prospects. i don't see that happening either.

vince wilfort
06-23-2008, 03:51 PM
i hate to say it but i think somebody else is gonna make tek an offer he won't refuse in the offseason. wagner's not tearing up AA so i'd keep an eye open for a majors-ready catching prospect.

Catching prospects usually aren't available. Teams like to hold onto them because they're so hard to come by. The one that may be available is Jeff Clement from Seattle, who will cost a fortune that is not worth giving as a contending team.

But to answer the question of this thread, a reliever might not be a bad idea, but I think they should wait until the deadline to decide whether or not it's a need. Names to consider are Brian Fuentes and Damaso Marte for the most part.

Ewagner
06-23-2008, 04:15 PM
Catching prospects usually aren't available. Teams like to hold onto them because they're so hard to come by. The one that may be available is Jeff Clement from Seattle, who will cost a fortune that is not worth giving as a contending team.

But to answer the question of this thread, a reliever might not be a bad idea, but I think they should wait until the deadline to decide whether or not it's a need. Names to consider are Brian Fuentes and Damaso Marte for the most part.

clement is getting most of the work in seattle now with new managment. it's not to showcase him either. johjami is DH'ing and working out at first as they plan on either releasing or trading sexson. there really are no good prospect for ctaching that would be available though i agree. that is the biggest need and i think if they have any thought of trading crisp that is what it should be for. i don't see them trading for the future. it just doesn't make a lot of sense. if somehow they can get a top catching prospect and a solid RP from somewhere. the only prospects at catcher we may be able to grab is bryan anderson from st. louis, hank conger with the angels, and taylor teagraden with rangers.

futureheisman
06-23-2008, 06:13 PM
how about salty

americanoutlaw
06-23-2008, 09:55 PM
Who sould the Red Sox Cut or Called up to help the team or ever who sould the sox trade for??

Shaiza
06-23-2008, 10:02 PM
huh

yaowowrocket11
06-23-2008, 10:03 PM
:confused:

americanoutlaw
06-23-2008, 10:34 PM
sorry fix it

americanoutlaw
06-23-2008, 11:26 PM
Call up Jed Lowire

moneyball
06-24-2008, 05:29 AM
A shortstop a shortstop my kingdom for a shortstop.

lil'papi
06-24-2008, 09:29 AM
I don't really see the need to trade for a MRP nevermind any relief pitcher at all. Relief pitchers aren't reliable year to year (exception of elite closers/set up) and trading for them makes it even more risky. I would rather see how Hansen comes along rather then shelling out prospects like we did last year with Gagne for someone like Damaso Marte. Marte is a great pitcher for the Pirates but who is to say he will be the same guy when he puts on a Red Sox uniform. Unless we are talking of someone to a Huston Street caliber im not interested.

As for a power hitter goes I wouldn't be too concerned with that either. Ortiz will be given plenty of time to heal with the way Drew and Youk have been helping carry the load offensively. Even if Ortiz is out for the season I don't think it would be time to push the panic button, we are one of the deepest if not the deepest team in baseball and we will find ways to score runs, our offense without Ortiz is still one of the best in the AL.

I agree ^^ well almost.

Drew in the last week is hitting .250 and has cooled , but that's expected.

Ortiz is the wildcard.

We have several guys that chilled at the same time. Drew, Tek, Ellsbury, Moss .250-.053-.208-.167 .... (last 7 days)

We need Ellsbury to heat up he is the engine.

Coco, Pedy, Lowell did well.

If Ortiz is done then Adam Dunn might fill that role we could rotate him and Manny in the DH. Not sure what the costs are......

Relief as mentioned is hit or miss the guys that project best are power arms. We have that in our system so as of now we might not make any splashes.

sometimes that's best.....

futureheisman
06-24-2008, 09:36 AM
I agree ^^ well almost.

Drew in the last week is hitting .250 and has cooled , but that's expected.

Ortiz is the wildcard.

We have several guys that chilled at the same time. Drew, Tek, Ellsbury, Moss .250-.053-.208-.167 .... (last 7 days)

We need Ellsbury to heat up he is the engine.

Coco, Pedy, Lowell did well.

If Ortiz is done then Adam Dunn might fill that role we could rotate him and Manny in the DH. Not sure what the costs are......

Relief as mentioned is hit or miss the guys that project best are power arms. We have that in our system so as of now we might not make any splashes.

sometimes that's best.....
Adam Dunn would not work here he strikes out too much and his average is way too low. Some of his Homeruns are product of the ballpark in cincy.

Ewagner
06-24-2008, 09:53 AM
I agree ^^ well almost.

Drew in the last week is hitting .250 and has cooled , but that's expected.

Ortiz is the wildcard.

We have several guys that chilled at the same time. Drew, Tek, Ellsbury, Moss .250-.053-.208-.167 .... (last 7 days)

We need Ellsbury to heat up he is the engine.

Coco, Pedy, Lowell did well.

If Ortiz is done then Adam Dunn might fill that role we could rotate him and Manny in the DH. Not sure what the costs are......

Relief as mentioned is hit or miss the guys that project best are power arms. We have that in our system so as of now we might not make any splashes.

sometimes that's best.....

:speechless: adam dunn is the worst option. i would rather have brandon moss hit in the three hole for the rest of the season. my apologizes to brandon moss.

Tragedy
06-24-2008, 09:54 AM
Adam Dunn would not work here he strikes out too much and his average is way too low. Some of his Homeruns are product of the ballpark in cincy.
Give me a break.

While he K's and his BA is low, does anyone honestly bother to check at his OPS+?

If Ortiz is out for the year and we can get Dunn for 75 cents on the dollar, I'm all over this deal.

i am bob
06-24-2008, 09:58 AM
I would love to get Dunn if Ortiz is out........for the right price. which means not giving too much.

GrkGawdofWalkz
06-24-2008, 09:59 AM
Fuentes can easily spell Okajima in certain stretches, provides valuable playoff experience and can spot close for Papelbon should he need a night off. I would prefer him heavily to Marte.

I would be excited to get a talent like Clement into the system if the Mariners have given up on the former USC Trojan. Would be an inexpensive way to test an option post Varitek.

WilymoPena
06-24-2008, 10:15 AM
I don't even think Sherrill is a trade possibility. Why would they trade a quality LHP reliever (closer or not) who's only entering his first year of arbitration eligibility? Unless they got something huge in return it would be a PR nightmare given that the fans were in revolt over dealing Bedard in the first place.

He's 31 and they have Chris Ray and Radhames Liz for next year. They want to trade him while they cans till get value for him. I Imagine Huff will leave the O's and Mora if they can move him.

WilymoPena
06-24-2008, 10:25 AM
Fuentes can easily spell Okajima in certain stretches, provides valuable playoff experience and can spot close for Papelbon should he need a night off. I would prefer him heavily to Marte.

I would be excited to get a talent like Clement into the system if the Mariners have given up on the former USC Trojan. Would be an inexpensive way to test an option post Varitek.

Have you ever seen Fuentes pitch? Remind you of anyone? Javier Lopez maybe. Effective lefty, nothing special .

No way do we get Adam Dunn. I imagine he will end up with a Houston or SD. Somewhere in the NL.

Shaiza
06-24-2008, 11:19 AM
Have you ever seen Fuentes pitch? Remind you of anyone? Javier Lopez maybe. Effective lefty, nothing special .

No way do we get Adam Dunn. I imagine he will end up with a Houston or SD. Somewhere in the NL.

Fuentes is effective against righties as well, which Lopez is not capable of doing.

Ewagner
06-24-2008, 12:55 PM
Give me a break.

While he K's and his BA is low, does anyone honestly bother to check at his OPS+?

If Ortiz is out for the year and we can get Dunn for 75 cents on the dollar, I'm all over this deal.

I checked it and it doesn't help. look at it this way his career obp is .381. casey's is .367, crisp is .327. he would probable be traded for crisp if it were to happen. i personally would rather have crisp and his defense then dunn and his career average of 165 K's a season batting behind griffey and 101 walks. isn't he hitting .216 this year with griffey, bruce, edwin, and votto. i'm thinking dunn would be a bad pick up. this would be like a gagne pickup. on top of all this he plays in the national league so he would need to learn all new pitchers. i'm saying dunn very bad idea.

RedSoxtober
06-24-2008, 01:18 PM
how about salty

That's been extensively discussed around here. The collective wisdom boils down to: No dice.

Ewagner
06-24-2008, 02:34 PM
That's been extensively discussed around here. The collective wisdom boils down to: No dice.

just out of curiousity what kind of defensive catcher salty is? varitek was great because he caught a great game and was very intelligent. i would like to see them get a catching prospect like that. offense should be secondary. it's a nice bonus but i would rather have varitek in his prime then piazza. personal preference

futureheisman
06-24-2008, 03:42 PM
just out of curiousity what kind of defensive catcher salty is? varitek was great because he caught a great game and was very intelligent. i would like to see them get a catching prospect like that. offense should be secondary. it's a nice bonus but i would rather have varitek in his prime then piazza. personal preference

Agreed here. Its more important for catcher to be able too call good games and have the pitcher's trust to throw a certain pitch in a certain situation. Offense with catchers should be secondary.
Salty i think would be a guy i think could do that and gives some pop as a bonus.

RedSoxtober
06-24-2008, 04:25 PM
just out of curiousity what kind of defensive catcher salty is? varitek was great because he caught a great game and was very intelligent. i would like to see them get a catching prospect like that. offense should be secondary. it's a nice bonus but i would rather have varitek in his prime then piazza. personal preference


Agreed here. Its more important for catcher to be able too call good games and have the pitcher's trust to throw a certain pitch in a certain situation. Offense with catchers should be secondary.
Salty i think would be a guy i think could do that and gives some pop as a bonus.

Salty is more Piazza than Tek. He's been coveted because he's a switching hitting catcher with some pop, though his MLB track record does not exactly reflect the excitement surrounding him (.255/.321/.725 career, .225/.350/.700 this year). OPS+ is 91, not great for an offensively oriented catcher.

lil'papi
06-25-2008, 09:22 AM
Adam Dunn would not work here he strikes out too much and his average is way too low. Some of his Homeruns are product of the ballpark in cincy.

Go check his OBP. Then check HR's and RBI....nevermind OPS.

He gets on base , he plays the OF, if the price is right he is an option. In Fenway he might raise his average too. I'm not saying he is the only candidate.
He certainly FAR from the worst. I know they have interest , not sure how strong it is.

Ortiz coming back sure makes it mute.

futureheisman
06-25-2008, 10:34 AM
With Ben sheets now going to test the FA market Is it possible that we may go after him. His name has seemed to be linked to the sox. I think for the right price he would be one hell of a 3rd starter in the playoffs.

Ewagner
06-25-2008, 01:17 PM
With Ben sheets now going to test the FA market Is it possible that we may go after him. His name has seemed to be linked to the sox. I think for the right price he would be one hell of a 3rd starter in the playoffs.

this is what i don't understand. this isn't a knock on anyone i am just using this as a reference. why in the world we go after a starter. he have more pitching depth then we know what to do with. we have buchholz sitting in the minors for the simple reason that there is no where to put him in the majors. granted a lot of these guys are young but they aren't going to be asked to be the ace or even the two. we have lester and beckett for that. dice-k is a three whether we like it or not and we still have masterson, buchholz, colon, and if we really want to go deep zink, bowden, and bard. i know starting pitching is always key especially in the playoffs but getting a rental player just doesn't seem like an answer. let another organization drain there minor league system for him.

RedSoxtober
06-25-2008, 03:47 PM
this is what i don't understand. this isn't a knock on anyone i am just using this as a reference. why in the world we go after a starter. he have more pitching depth then we know what to do with. we have buchholz sitting in the minors for the simple reason that there is no where to put him in the majors. granted a lot of these guys are young but they aren't going to be asked to be the ace or even the two. we have lester and beckett for that. dice-k is a three whether we like it or not and we still have masterson, buchholz, colon, and if we really want to go deep zink, bowden, and bard. i know starting pitching is always key especially in the playoffs but getting a rental player just doesn't seem like an answer. let another organization drain there minor league system for him.

As I suggested elsewhere, we get into the conversation with FA's but not on the trade market. The Sox presence helps keep the prices high and prevents foes like the Yankees from landing two. I also think that Sheets is someone who could end up getting a slightly undervalued deal due to his injury history and that fits the Sox profile. He'd be a line of defense against a defection of Beckett after his option (2yrs) and allow the Sox to deal one of their prospects for another need.

KmB728
06-25-2008, 04:52 PM
Well we had depth in the bullpen

look at Pinero and Romero... i wouldnt mind having them back in the pen this year

i dont think were going after a hitter.... if any move is done its a RP

vince wilfort
06-25-2008, 10:12 PM
Speaking of relief pitchers, Vinnie Chulk was just designated for assignment by the Giants. I think he would be a good fit for what the Red Sox need because he's great against righties and he gets plenty of groundball outs even though he pitches to contact. Thoughts?

Tragedy
06-25-2008, 11:24 PM
Speaking of relief pitchers, Vinnie Chulk was just designated for assignment by the Giants. I think he would be a good fit for what the Red Sox need because he's great against righties and he gets plenty of groundball outs even though he pitches to contact. Thoughts?
Might as well give Chris Smith a chance. He's looked good in his first two appearances.

WilymoPena
06-26-2008, 12:41 AM
Yeah I would take Chulk, but I mean seriously if the Giants released him he musthave fallen off his AL form considerably which was never elite.

RedSoxtober
06-26-2008, 08:12 AM
Yeah I would take Chulk, but I mean seriously if the Giants released him he musthave fallen off his AL form considerably which was never elite.

:confused:
Chulk was never a ground ball pitcher. At his best he was even in ground balls to flyballs, but the last three seasons (incl 2008) he's been giving up 25-35% more flyballs.

This year his k/9 is barely 4.5 and opponents have a .312OBA, .488SLG against him. The Sox would be better with Farrell relieving.

redsox96
06-26-2008, 08:41 AM
i hate to say it but i think somebody else is gonna make tek an offer he won't refuse in the offseason. wagner's not tearing up AA so i'd keep an eye open for a majors-ready catching prospect.


how bout salty:badidea:

I think that the Sox should try to get Atlanta to trade us Brian McCann. Wakefields gonna retire so we could give them a draft pick and cash and Kevin cash and Coco Crisp. I dont think theyd like that trade but id love that trade:clap::clap::clap::clap::worthy:Brian McCann. and when they need a backup, they can pick up Miguel Olivo.

:dance:

RedSoxtober
06-26-2008, 09:02 AM
:badidea:

I think that the Sox should try to get Atlanta to trade us Brian McCann. Wakefields gonna retire so we could give them a draft pick and cash and Kevin cash and Coco Crisp. I dont think theyd like that trade but id love that trade:clap::clap::clap::clap::worthy:Brian McCann. and when they need a backup, they can pick up Miguel Olivo.

:dance:

McCann is the primary reason that Salty was dealt, and he's done nothing but put up all star numbers since he won the job. As much as I'd love it, you've got as much chance swapping Lugo for Jeter.

BTW, why would the Braves take a package of spare parts for an all star at one of the most coveted positions in MLB?

One last thing: in baseball you are not allow to trade draft picks. The unexercised picks (ie "I'll give you our second round pick in '09 and '10") can't be traded, and the picks themselves cannot be traded for one year after they are signed.

lil'papi
06-26-2008, 09:21 AM
McCann is the primary reason that Salty was dealt, and he's done nothing but put up all star numbers since he won the job. As much as I'd love it, you've got as much chance swapping Lugo for Jeter.

BTW, why would the Braves take a package of spare parts for an all star at one of the most coveted positions in MLB?

One last thing: in baseball you are not allow to trade draft picks. The unexercised picks (ie "I'll give you our second round pick in '09 and '10") can't be traded, and the picks themselves cannot be traded for one year after they are signed.

Jeter was hitting about .270+ Lugo the same....Lugo is 11mil per cheaper.....Lugo has much better range, Jeter is much more accurate. (tossup):p

I'd say we don't want his contract. :D

We just can't name players we want and trade for them. It has to make some semblance of sense for both teams. Plus there aren't many catchers right now that hit.

.....why give up a top pitching prospect?

Superiority
06-26-2008, 12:20 PM
ok you guys can keep Lugo and we'll take Jeter anyday

KniCks4LiFe
06-26-2008, 12:28 PM
Just want to correct a few things.

Derek Jeter
3.86 RFg, .978 FPCT %

Julio Lugo
3.64 RFg, .935 FPCT %

That'll be all.

redsox96
06-26-2008, 01:40 PM
well still id love that trade but i do think if someone trys to get varitek we should get miguel olivo

Ewagner
06-26-2008, 01:50 PM
Just want to correct a few things.

Derek Jeter
3.86 RFg, .978 FPCT %

Julio Lugo
3.64 RFg, .935 FPCT %

That'll be all.

Why would i want jeter? not that i think lugo is any better but he is one of the worst fielding SS in baseball. plus what is hitting now in that line-up?
.286? and how much does he make? please he was even voted to the most overpaid team on yahoo. i'll take my chances with jed lowrie.

mccann is just wishful thinking and would never happen. there is a catcher in the rangers minor league system Taylor Teagarden who i think we could get though. he is a top 100 prospect and he is blocked in the majors by salty.

Ewagner
06-26-2008, 02:56 PM
Eric Karabell: I think Saltalamacchia has been vastly overrated. It's way too early to give up on him, but note the Rangers have 2 better, younger catchers just about ready. Max Ramirez can rake. He homered last night, and had 17 in 50 games at Double-A. Taylor Teagarden is a huge prospect. I just think the Braves convinced Texas that they were getting a long-time, front-line catcher, and they weren't.

i just got this off of chat line i thought was interesting. wish we got this teagarden instead of gagne last year :(

bagwell368
06-26-2008, 11:12 PM
:speechless: adam dunn is the worst option. i would rather have brandon moss hit in the three hole for the rest of the season. my apologizes to brandon moss.

Dunn is the best option for a hitter from a number of angles.

RedSoxtober
06-27-2008, 08:54 AM
ok you guys can keep Lugo and we'll take Jeter anyday


Just want to correct a few things.

Derek Jeter
3.86 RFg, .978 FPCT %

Julio Lugo
3.64 RFg, .935 FPCT %

That'll be all.


Why would i want jeter? ...mccann is just wishful thinking and would never happen.

Wow. You guys really don't get it, do you. My reference to swapping Lugo for Jeter was what's called hyperbole -- it's absurdity is meant to draw similar attention to it's reference (trading for McCann). I don't care to debate Jeter vs Lugo. The point is that the Yankees would never trade the face of the last decade of Yankee baseball to their chief rival, and the Braves are just as unlikely to trade McCann. I hope that was explicit enough.


there is a catcher in the rangers minor league system Taylor Teagarden who i think we could get though. he is a top 100 prospect and he is blocked in the majors by salty.


Eric Karabell: I think Saltalamacchia has been vastly overrated. It's way too early to give up on him, but note the Rangers have 2 better, younger catchers just about ready. Max Ramirez can rake. He homered last night, and had 17 in 50 games at Double-A. Taylor Teagarden is a huge prospect. I just think the Braves convinced Texas that they were getting a long-time, front-line catcher, and they weren't.

i just got this off of chat line i thought was interesting. wish we got this teagarden instead of gagne last year :(

I agree that Salty is overrated but I don't get all the love shown to Teagarden. Anyone checked his numbers (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Taylor%20Teagarden&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=460003) this year? He hit only .169 before getting promoted to AAA and isn't exactly tearing up the PCL. I think he got major ink over a great debut and is now trying to play up to it.

59K in 183AB this year? 128K in 394AB last? Why do we get excited about catching prospects with track records like this?

lil'papi
06-27-2008, 09:38 AM
Boy my post went over some heads, it was a joke. I was basically having fun with RST's proposal. No I don't want Jeter and at this point Lugo either.
Jeter can stay in NY for 20mil per.

Lugo just sucks now. 16 errors-18RBI's I can't justify it. I did like the move at first, but now he is wearing thin. I hated the money like everyone else.

Lowrie right now might be our best bet.

futureheisman
06-27-2008, 09:53 AM
Lugo is patenic.... period . We need to get him out of here..

Put lowrie in and try to get rid of lugo for a C prospect.

And yeah why would the Braves ever do that deal. They would have to be on crack to do that deal.

knittingmill
06-27-2008, 10:56 AM
we'd have to package lugo with somebody teams want like Florida did with beckett and lowell (ok, lowell turned out great). how about colon and lugo for ryan doumit?

futureheisman
06-27-2008, 12:53 PM
why are with even talking about lugo to jeter???? Jeter is a hall of fame SS and lugo stinks. This shouldnt't even be a dicussion. The colon and lugo for doumit????? The pirates wouldn't touch them there looking for young talent to try to turn them around not colon and a sucky SS like lugo YOU MUST BE JOKING. There is something on mlbtraderumors.com saying that the rockies would trade fuentus regardless if they were in the playoff race or not

Ewagner
06-27-2008, 02:49 PM
Wow. You guys really don't get it, do you. My reference to swapping Lugo for Jeter was what's called hyperbole -- it's absurdity is meant to draw similar attention to it's reference (trading for McCann). I don't care to debate Jeter vs Lugo. The point is that the Yankees would never trade the face of the last decade of Yankee baseball to their chief rival, and the Braves are just as unlikely to trade McCann. I hope that was explicit enough.





I agree that Salty is overrated but I don't get all the love shown to Teagarden. Anyone checked his numbers (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Taylor%20Teagarden&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=460003) this year? He hit only .169 before getting promoted to AAA and isn't exactly tearing up the PCL. I think he got major ink over a great debut and is now trying to play up to it.

59K in 183AB this year? 128K in 394AB last? Why do we get excited about catching prospects with track records like this?


sorry i wasn't getting exciting about teagarden. he's was just a player i thought would be available. it's about availablity. i could sit here and say we should go after clement or wieter or soto. but that would just be idiotic since none of those teams are going to give those guys up. just giving realistic options.

rufo4100
06-27-2008, 06:29 PM
Biggest need is a number 2 starter. Schilling is gone and Wake and Dice K are good pitchers but not proven in the post season. If we could bring in a guy like Sabathia via a trade without giving up top prospects in the minors Jeb Lowrie or Justin Masterson or any major league guys than I think that would be smart move. Even if the sox dont resign Sabathia they would get 2 really high draft picks.

bagwell368
06-27-2008, 07:27 PM
Sabathia is interesting but if you think you get him for Lowrie OR Masterson and some random kids forget it. Try:

Masterson
Lowrie
Bowden
Kalish or Wagner or whatever hitter they want from AA/AAA

not worth it.

I like short talent for Dunn since they seem to be a bat short, and the same two draft pick scanerio obtains.

The pitching is so good I wouldn't trade for any, just retool.

SP's - will take care of themselves.

You have to assume Beckett as #1, if he can't do it, season is over anyhow. Lester seems quite ready for #2
Dice at #3.

#4, 5: Wake, Colon, Bucholtz

Masterson and perhaps Bowden to RP. That's a fine staff.

futureheisman
06-27-2008, 07:35 PM
Biggest need is a number 2 starter. Schilling is gone and Wake and Dice K are good pitchers but not proven in the post season. If we could bring in a guy like Sabathia via a trade without giving up top prospects in the minors Jeb Lowrie or Justin Masterson or any major league guys than I think that would be smart move. Even if the sox dont resign Sabathia they would get 2 really high draft picks.

I have mixed feelings about C.C.. He was the Cy young last year but blew up in the playoffs. im afraid that he could do that again. Having said that the two draft picks you would get back for him would be very high based on the Indians record. I think that he would be a great pickup BARRING a playoff meltdown.

Ewagner
06-27-2008, 09:17 PM
Sabathia is interesting but if you think you get him for Lowrie OR Masterson and some random kids forget it. Try:

Masterson
Lowrie
Bowden
Kalish or Wagner or whatever hitter they want from AA/AAA

not worth it.

I like short talent for Dunn since they seem to be a bat short, and the same two draft pick scanerio obtains.

The pitching is so good I wouldn't trade for any, just retool.

SP's - will take care of themselves.

You have to assume Beckett as #1, if he can't do it, season is over anyhow. Lester seems quite ready for #2
Dice at #3.

#4, 5: Wake, Colon, Bucholtz

Masterson and perhaps Bowden to RP. That's a fine staff.

i agree with this completely. they will be looking for something similar to what they got for colon when they traded him to the expos. i still do not agree with Dunn. i know about his ob% being a career .387 but the K's are still something i worry about. i am more comfortable with drew in the three spot manny Dh'ing and coco, jacoby and drew in the OF.

lil'papi
06-28-2008, 09:13 AM
why are with even talking about lugo to jeter???? Jeter is a hall of fame SS and lugo stinks. This shouldnt't even be a dicussion. The colon and lugo for doumit????? The pirates wouldn't touch them there looking for young talent to try to turn them around not colon and a sucky SS like lugo YOU MUST BE JOKING. There is something on mlbtraderumors.com saying that the rockies would trade fuentus regardless if they were in the playoff race or not


Please , please go back and read the posts again. WE WERE JOKING....

None of the regulars here said anything off the wall trade wise. We all know Theo will give us what we need. A lot depends on the next month. How papi progresses the BP and whats available.

Most of us , me included, believe we sit pat and use our prospects. Plus.......... Timlin is coming back! :p

We have two very tough series coming up. TB and NYY, both primed for us. I'm quite sure we will be ready for that also.

It might give us more insight into what we need. ;)

Tragedy
06-28-2008, 12:12 PM
Biggest need is a number 2 starter. Schilling is gone and Wake and Dice K are good pitchers but not proven in the post season.
I disagree with this notion completely. We have a rock, an ace, and a leader to our pitching staff. There aren't many teams that can claim that. After Beckett, everyone just falls into place as quality pitchers - Matsuzaka, Wakefield, Masterson, and Lester ALL are having VERY solid seasons. They'll get shelled here and there, but for the most part, they're each going to walk away with ERA+ of well over 100.


If we could bring in a guy like Sabathia via a trade without giving up top prospects in the minors Jeb Lowrie or Justin Masterson or any major league guys than I think that would be smart move. Even if the sox dont resign Sabathia they would get 2 really high draft picks.
But why wouldn't the Indians want guys like Masterson or Lowrie? Who would they take? Moss and Bailey? I mean, we have to think realistically here. They'd probably force Masterson, and that's just to start. There is no reason to take C.C. He's a very good pitcher and everything, but the possibility that he'll walk away at seasons end (After we just gave up Masterson + for him), and just get two draft picks in return is simply NOT worth it. Boston fans would be screaming next year when Masterson is putting up fantastic numbers in Cleveland.

lil'papi
06-29-2008, 09:09 AM
[QUOTE]But why wouldn't the Indians want guys like Masterson or Lowrie? Who would they take? Moss and Bailey? I mean, we have to think realistically here. They'd probably force Masterson, and that's just to start. There is no reason to take C.C. He's a very good pitcher and everything, but the possibility that he'll walk away at seasons end (After we just gave up Masterson + for him), and just get two draft picks in return is simply NOT worth it. Boston fans would be screaming next year when Masterson is putting up fantastic numbers in Cleveland.

I agree, plus I know I've heard rumblings about them scared by his weight. He is coming off a high inning year and looks different than last year. Get him, keep Colon bring back Schilling , if we can't win games , we sure could pie eating contests.

FA next year , why not wait.

Masterson everyone has being traded or Bowden. I just don't see it. Masterson has been good. Bowden upside is great. We have to pay some guys coming up why add to that.

Harden's name keeps being tossed around? But, another costly prospect loss. I'm sure he will make some sort of deal , but one we go wow , not so sure.

ThreeIfBaerga
06-29-2008, 02:59 PM
I don't see any of the Top Prospects getting traded. I could see another Gagne type trade of a few MLB quality players that the Sox have rotting/riding the shuttle in AAA for another piece to the puzzle, nothing big like Sabathia or Dunn (BTW, where would Dunn play on this team? He's not taking Manny's spot, not taking Youk's spot, definitely not taking Ortiz' spot, he just doesn't fit this team.).

The Sox have tons of talent sitting in AAA and on the bench like Pauley, Moss, Kottaras, Brown, Carter, etc.

This system is too set up to need a big deal, they've got a very solid big league club with very few glaring weaknesses that can be filled (Lugo's not going anywhere and Tek sure as hell isn't either), and they've got too much talent in the minors to ship off for a rental. The big pieces will go towards and Manny replacement.

RedSoxtober
06-29-2008, 03:36 PM
why are with even talking about lugo to jeter???? Jeter is a hall of fame SS and lugo stinks. This shouldnt't even be a dicussion.
First, it was never a discussion. You proposed the Sox send their retreads to ATL for McCann and I said you were as likely to get him from ATL as the Sox would be to get Jeter for Lugo. The Yankees are not trading their captain to the Red Sox ever and the Braves aren't sending McCann to us for a poor fielding SS or anyone else. You need to read more carefully.


I have mixed feelings about C.C.. He was the Cy young last year but blew up in the playoffs. im afraid that he could do that again.

That's pretty unlikely. CC faded because he'd thrown 253 innings during the regular season. For all the attention that Wedge got for his managerial skills, he completely blew this aspect of the game. He managed to win during the season rather than the playoffs and blew out his top two arms. (BTW, for all the complaints about Francona's in-game decisions I think he managed this specifically to get the Sox deep into October).


I don't see any of the Top Prospects getting traded. I could see another Gagne type trade of a few MLB quality players that the Sox have rotting/riding the shuttle in AAA for another piece to the puzzle, nothing big like Sabathia or Dunn (BTW, where would Dunn play on this team? He's not taking Manny's spot, not taking Youk's spot, definitely not taking Ortiz' spot, he just doesn't fit this team.).
I agree with your assessment of the Dunn situation. I know all the arguments but don't see him in a Sox uniform. He just does not fit unless Ortiz is done for the season and it certainly does not look like that's the case.

Personally I think the Sox could make a very surprising deal this year. They seem to make their best deals when no one is looking (e.g., Nomah, Ortiz, Colon). Because they are not over the barrel in any particular area they won't make a stupid deal.

americanoutlaw
06-29-2008, 11:43 PM
call up that could help the red sox

UT-Jon Van Every
1b/dh/of-Chris Carter
ss/3b/2b-Jed Lowrie

tonyd3b54
06-29-2008, 11:57 PM
im prefectly fine wit the sox trading any of our pitching prospects for anything thatll get us anohter title... our staff is pretty much set for a long time...beckett and dicek are 28...lester and bucholtz are 24 thats 4 of our 5 starters.... so theres really no room for most of the pitching prospects to fit in...so y not trade them...

GrkGawdofWalkz
06-30-2008, 12:09 AM
Cough, and call me crazy here, but with Tek on his last legs, would Bengie Molina be a realistic target. He's come around and is reliable for the most part calling a game. Or if this is the insomnia cracking into my eyes, then just ignore it. He could split time.......but then again he may be an allstar in the west, and would want to start immediately. Clement possibly could be a failed experiment in Seattle.

lil'papi
06-30-2008, 09:25 AM
I don't see any of the Top Prospects getting traded. I could see another Gagne type trade of a few MLB quality players that the Sox have rotting/riding the shuttle in AAA for another piece to the puzzle, nothing big like Sabathia or Dunn (BTW, where would Dunn play on this team? He's not taking Manny's spot, not taking Youk's spot, definitely not taking Ortiz' spot, he just doesn't fit this team.).

The Sox have tons of talent sitting in AAA and on the bench like Pauley, Moss, Kottaras, Brown, Carter, etc.

This system is too set up to need a big deal, they've got a very solid big league club with very few glaring weaknesses that can be filled (Lugo's not going anywhere and Tek sure as hell isn't either), and they've got too much talent in the minors to ship off for a rental. The big pieces will go towards and Manny replacement.

Dunn certainly doesn't. But would if Ortiz is either out for a much longer period or done. Both we have no idea about yet.
Dunn does a few things really well. He is a competent fielder and we could DH Manny more. We can also jetison him come seasons end.

He was brought up several times by the media , guys that are tight with the FO. I'm not advocating Dunn. But flip side he would give us power and RBI and OBP.
K's aside....
Doesn't fit now. Might later on.

I agree with your assessment-- pretty much what I've been saying. ;)

I also believe they won't pick up Manny's options. If he has a monster second half , it probably doesn't matter. I strongly believe they go the new contract route. Save themselves some money and pay him more what he is worth. I just don't see teams paying him more than 15mil per....that's the high side. The Mets might.....
I'm doubting they go 3 yrs like we could. We can DH him , they can't, so that leaves a ton of NL squads out.

AL teams that might pay him? Not sure......

His age/health limit his ability to play the field. His lack of range for the bigger parks would be a problem.

Manny and Boston will be interesting. I agree though we might have to loosen the strings on a few prospects to replace him , if it comes to that.

Ewagner
06-30-2008, 11:44 AM
Dunn certainly doesn't. But would if Ortiz is either out for a much longer period or done. Both we have no idea about yet.
Dunn does a few things really well. He is a competent fielder and we could DH Manny more. We can also jetison him come seasons end.

He was brought up several times by the media , guys that are tight with the FO. I'm not advocating Dunn. But flip side he would give us power and RBI and OBP.
K's aside....
Doesn't fit now. Might later on.

I agree with your assessment-- pretty much what I've been saying. ;)

I also believe they won't pick up Manny's options. If he has a monster second half , it probably doesn't matter. I strongly believe they go the new contract route. Save themselves some money and pay him more what he is worth. I just don't see teams paying him more than 15mil per....that's the high side. The Mets might.....
I'm doubting they go 3 yrs like we could. We can DH him , they can't, so that leaves a ton of NL squads out.

AL teams that might pay him? Not sure......

His age/health limit his ability to play the field. His lack of range for the bigger parks would be a problem.

Manny and Boston will be interesting. I agree though we might have to loosen the strings on a few prospects to replace him , if it comes to that.


we will pick up the option on manny for one reason and one reason only. the yankees. he would love to go to new york. he has proved he can handle the big market and the yankees have giambi and pavano's contract coming off the books this year. they have a lot of money. i tihn they will go after tex and cc if manny is there nothing would make them hahppier then grabing him and they will over pay for him. look what they did with damon.

bagwell368
06-30-2008, 02:43 PM
On the hitting side, I do advocate Dunn as the best option for what it will cost. Ortiz tells all. I think they will get someone. Drew is fine in the 3 slot. If Dunn has trouble in the AL, he can always hit in the 6 or 7 slot instead of 5. They'll get the sandwhich picks for him next year, after he goes FA. The system is so loaded with pitchers, it's almost a good idea to cull some out of here.

On the pitching side, it'll work out except they need a kick butt lefty in the pen - and nobody in the system is close enough for this. Okie has looked shaky for a bit. Go trade two strong kids to get the best lefty pen arm we can get. Put Okie on the DL for 3-4 weeks for a rest, and a rehab. Worst case he will be good as a one out lefty this year - best case we are the only team with two lights out lefties in the pen.

ThreeIfBaerga
06-30-2008, 03:03 PM
On the hitting side, I do advocate Dunn as the best option for what it will cost. Ortiz tells all. I think they will get someone. Drew is fine in the 3 slot. If Dunn has trouble in the AL, he can always hit in the 6 or 7 slot instead of 5. They'll get the sandwhich picks for him next year, after he goes FA. The system is so loaded with pitchers, it's almost a good idea to cull some out of here.



I think this year proves that you can never have too much pitching. Imagine where we'd be if we didn't have capable backups for Beckett, Matsuzaka, Schilling, Colon and every other pitcher that has missed time this year?

But I ask again, where would Dunn play? Ortiz is on his way back, so there goes DH. Left field is spoken for, as is first base. Want to try Dunn out at catcher? The guy has no spot on this team, it would make zero sense.

bagwell368
06-30-2008, 11:23 PM
But I ask again, where would Dunn play? Ortiz is on his way back, so there goes DH. Left field is spoken for, as is first base. Want to try Dunn out at catcher? The guy has no spot on this team, it would make zero sense.

Ortiz is not back yet, and I have serious doubts, this is a very serious injury for a hitter. When Ortiz proves he is back before the trade deadline, fine, no Dunn. But if he is toast, or its in doubt. The offense is struggling lately they need more producing bats.

swissle
07-01-2008, 02:23 AM
When is this guy coming back from injury?

Tragedy
07-01-2008, 02:50 AM
When is this guy coming back from injury?
He's no longer injured. In fact, many believe he wasn't even injured to begin with. From what we know, he's healed, and he's working in AAA right now. There is no reason to believe that we should bother taking apart a rotation that is working well right now and slotting Clay in.

RedSoxtober
07-01-2008, 08:01 AM
When is this guy coming back from injury?

The injury was an excuse. Initially they said he would not miss any time. They'd been trying to get him to change his arm slot slightly and he was having a hard time repeating it during games (side sessions, when he could concentrate on it more, were fine). I think they intended to use a rehab stint as a way to get him to AAA without using any options but later decided that, with Colon and Masterson throwing well, they didn't need to rush him back and that he was better served concentrating on his arm slot, controlling his fastball, and throwing first-pitch strikes in AAA.

It would seem to be the right call. Here are his results since going to PAW. Note that he's given up only 1ER in his last four starts (22.2IP, 24k/5bb, whip below 1).



Date OPP W L ERA SV IP H ER BB SO
May 25 ROC 0 0 2.25 0 4.0 3 1 2 3
May 30 @DUR 0 0 6.75 0 4.0 2 3 4 5
Jun 04 @CHA 0 0 0.00 0 5.0 3 0 2 3
Jun 09 BUF 0 1 6.00 0 3.0 6 2 2 3
Jun 14 @LHV 1 0 0.00 0 6.0 6 0 2 8
Jun 20 COL 1 0 0.00 0 5.0 1 0 0 6
Jun 25 RIC 1 0 1.35 0 6.2 5 1 2 7
Jun 30 @SYR 1 0 0.00 0 5.0 4 0 1 3
Totals 4 1 1.63 0 38.2 30 7 15 38


When does he return? I would not be surprised if he took Masterson's next turn in the rotation (I love what Masterson's done but I think they perceive Clay as more prepared for the role this year). More likely, IMO, is that they let him stay in AAA through the All Star Break so he can continue to repeat his delivery and then come back to the rotation right after that.

Ewagner
07-01-2008, 10:10 AM
let me just say i watched marte pitch last night against the reds. we need to get this guy. he's been around for a little while but still throws consistently. he is lights out and is fun to watch. i would throw one of our young guns at the pirates for him. his career batting avg. against for lefties is .197. the kid is exciting to watch.

futureheisman
07-01-2008, 12:10 PM
let me just say i watched marte pitch last night against the reds. we need to get this guy. he's been around for a little while but still throws consistently. he is lights out and is fun to watch. i would throw one of our young guns at the pirates for him. his career batting avg. against for lefties is .197. the kid is exciting to watch.

This guy would be a great pickup

On mlbtraderumors.com Buster Onley is reporting that the brewers have the lead for c.c. with the rays and red sox cloesly behind. I think that this would be a good pickup if we didnt have to give up major prospects.
I think a good deal would be Bowdoin Moss and maybe a hunter jones for him. And if we dont resign him we get two high picks which from the idians record would be a very high pick. I think if they would accept this deal i would pull the trigger

ThreeIfBaerga
07-01-2008, 01:14 PM
This guy would be a great pickup

On mlbtraderumors.com Buster Onley is reporting that the brewers have the lead for c.c. with the rays and red sox cloesly behind. I think that this would be a good pickup if we didnt have to give up major prospects.
I think a good deal would be Bowdoin Moss and maybe a hunter jones for him. And if we dont resign him we get two high picks which from the idians record would be a very high pick. I think if they would accept this deal i would pull the trigger



If all it takes is Bowden and Moss, I'd say it's a deal that should be done. However, it will cost much more than that, the Rays have a stacked system and the Brewers can offer Matt Laporta.


BTW, the Sox wouldn't get the Indians picks, they'd get whoever signs him in the offseason, which from what I hear will be either the Yankees or the Dodgers. The Dodgers pick will be protected and the Yankees pick will likely be high 20s. I'd prefer Bowden over at best a high 20's pick.

RedSoxtober
07-01-2008, 01:15 PM
let me just say i watched marte pitch last night against the reds. we need to get this guy. he's been around for a little while but still throws consistently. he is lights out and is fun to watch. i would throw one of our young guns at the pirates for him. his career batting avg. against for lefties is .197. the kid is exciting to watch.

I've liked Marte for a long time. Given the struggles that Oki has gone through he'd be a great pickup. The only downside is that he's got a $6M option for next year.


This guy would be a great pickup

On mlbtraderumors.com Buster Onley is reporting that the brewers have the lead for c.c. with the rays and red sox cloesly behind. I think that this would be a good pickup if we didnt have to give up major prospects.
I think a good deal would be Bowdoin Moss and maybe a hunter jones for him. And if we dont resign him we get two high picks which from the idians record would be a very high pick. I think if they would accept this deal i would pull the trigger

If I understand this, you're suggesting Moss and Jones for Sabathia? If that's the suggestion then you're crazy. CC had a slow start but he's got a 1.89 era over his last ten starts and is rounding (pun intended) into his CY shape again. I'm not sure that Moss would be viewed as an upgrade to their OF and Jones is too far from making an impact to be enticing. Put Masterson, Bowden, or Buchholz in that deal and Shapiro might not drop the phone laughing.

BTW, the Indians would have absoluately nothing to do with the compensation picks the Sox would get if CC walked. It would depend on the team that signed him, not the next-to-last team to hold his contract.

Ewagner
07-01-2008, 02:39 PM
the indians are a very smart organization when it comes to trading there players. they are going to be looking for something similiar to what they got for colon when they traded him to montreal. they recieved sizemore, cliff lee, brandon philips, and lee stevens. going by that trend i would say it will take buchholz, coco, bowden and lars anderson to pull this trade off. they may insist on bard also.

ThreeIfBaerga
07-01-2008, 03:47 PM
the indians are a very smart organization when it comes to trading there players. they are going to be looking for something similiar to what they got for colon when they traded him to montreal. they recieved sizemore, cliff lee, brandon philips, and lee stevens. going by that trend i would say it will take buchholz, coco, bowden and lars anderson to pull this trade off. they may insist on bard also.

No team would come close to offering anything like the package you suggest for a 3 month rental. It wouldn't take that much.

RedSoxtober
07-01-2008, 04:03 PM
^^^ Not only that, but it looks more lopsided today because of the way the kids developed. Lee was the coup in the deal (at the time) and made a quick, strong impact. Sizemore took three seasons to break into the lineup. Phillips was lowly enough regarded that he got flipped a few years later and only then started to look like a player. They got lucky on that deal.

swissle
07-01-2008, 04:22 PM
The injury was an excuse. Initially they said he would not miss any time. They'd been trying to get him to change his arm slot slightly and he was having a hard time repeating it during games (side sessions, when he could concentrate on it more, were fine). I think they intended to use a rehab stint as a way to get him to AAA without using any options but later decided that, with Colon and Masterson throwing well, they didn't need to rush him back and that he was better served concentrating on his arm slot, controlling his fastball, and throwing first-pitch strikes in AAA.

It would seem to be the right call. Here are his results since going to PAW. Note that he's given up only 1ER in his last four starts (22.2IP, 24k/5bb, whip below 1).



Date OPP W L ERA SV IP H ER BB SO
May 25 ROC 0 0 2.25 0 4.0 3 1 2 3
May 30 @DUR 0 0 6.75 0 4.0 2 3 4 5
Jun 04 @CHA 0 0 0.00 0 5.0 3 0 2 3
Jun 09 BUF 0 1 6.00 0 3.0 6 2 2 3
Jun 14 @LHV 1 0 0.00 0 6.0 6 0 2 8
Jun 20 COL 1 0 0.00 0 5.0 1 0 0 6
Jun 25 RIC 1 0 1.35 0 6.2 5 1 2 7
Jun 30 @SYR 1 0 0.00 0 5.0 4 0 1 3
Totals 4 1 1.63 0 38.2 30 7 15 38


When does he return? I would not be surprised if he took Masterson's next turn in the rotation (I love what Masterson's done but I think they perceive Clay as more prepared for the role this year). More likely, IMO, is that they let him stay in AAA through the All Star Break so he can continue to repeat his delivery and then come back to the rotation right after that.



**** dude, thanks for the update. the stats and all were outstanding, certainly an educated sports fan. i'm not gonna lie, i'm a diehard Yankees fan, but when it comes to fantasy sports, I always tip my cap to the wonderful production of your pitching. Lester has been doing his damn thing, but I've got Clay riding the pine and been dying to get him back into the mix. Hopefully the head hanchos over there decide to stick him back into the rotation sooner than later. so you're thinking AFTER the all-star break?

bosox3431
07-01-2008, 04:50 PM
I say screw Sabathia and what the Indians will want, ontop of the 20mil a year he will want. Let the Yankees have him.

futureheisman
07-01-2008, 06:05 PM
I've liked Marte for a long time. Given the struggles that Oki has gone through he'd be a great pickup. The only downside is that he's got a $6M option for next year.



If I understand this, you're suggesting Moss and Jones for Sabathia? If that's the suggestion then you're crazy. CC had a slow start but he's got a 1.89 era over his last ten starts and is rounding (pun intended) into his CY shape again. I'm not sure that Moss would be viewed as an upgrade to their OF and Jones is too far from making an impact to be enticing. Put Masterson, Bowden, or Buchholz in that deal and Shapiro might not drop the phone laughing.

BTW, the Indians would have absoluately nothing to do with the compensation picks the Sox would get if CC walked. It would depend on the team that signed him, not the next-to-last team to hold his contract.

buddy i said Bowden that deal read it correctly.

My bad on the draft picks...

ThreeIfBaerga
07-01-2008, 07:44 PM
^^^ Not only that, but it looks more lopsided today because of the way the kids developed. Lee was the coup in the deal (at the time) and made a quick, strong impact. Sizemore took three seasons to break into the lineup. Phillips was lowly enough regarded that he got flipped a few years later and only then started to look like a player. They got lucky on that deal.


Brandon Phillips was ranked as the 20'th overall prospect in baseball by BA in 2002, his final year in the Expos organization. The next year, his first in the Indians minor leagues, he was ranked #7 overall. His early career with the Indians was quite disappointing, and he was pretty much given away to the Reds because he was considered a giant bust.


Cliff Lee, on the other hand, was not ranked by BA at all before he was in the Indians organization, when he topped out at #30.

ThreeIfBaerga
07-01-2008, 07:45 PM
buddy i said Bowden that deal read it correctly.

My bad on the draft picks...



Still not enough. A ceiling 2/3 starter, a highly replaceable OF/1b and a decent lefty setup man for one of the top 5 starters in baseball?

bouchard107
07-02-2008, 01:51 AM
Why bother going after relief right now...we have 30 days to test some people out for the rest of the year. Bring somebody up and let him have his throws in the majors. If nothing pans out strike the button and then get someone like Fuentes or Marte. Maybe even see if Arizona would pull the plug on Doug Slaten if the price is right Ask around to see if any bigger names are going...Timlin isn't going to be around forever and we're going to need someone like that to come in and eat an inning here or there. Huston Street would be nice, but knowing Beanie it will cost some extra. Will Ohman is a free agent after this season, not saying he is a solution, but a plug if needed.
About the Catching situation. Give K-Cash a shot. He seems to be someone to look at if the prospect catchers have fallen short. He's no Tek, but he's also a better fit for the organization at this point than Mirrabelli would have been. :horse:
One more thing, hold off on any trade if it involves Jed Lowrie unless we get top dollar. Cora is a free-agent to be and if we let him go, Lowrie takes his spot for the next 2 years until Lugo is gone. Then we have yet another farm grown young player on our team:clap:

RedSoxtober
07-02-2008, 07:55 AM
the indians are a very smart organization when it comes to trading there players. they are going to be looking for something similiar to what they got for colon when they traded him to montreal. they recieved sizemore, cliff lee, brandon philips, and lee stevens. going by that trend i would say it will take buchholz, coco, bowden and lars anderson to pull this trade off. they may insist on bard also.


**** dude, thanks for the update. the stats and all were outstanding, certainly an educated sports fan. i'm not gonna lie, i'm a diehard Yankees fan, but when it comes to fantasy sports, I always tip my cap to the wonderful production of your pitching. Lester has been doing his damn thing, but I've got Clay riding the pine and been dying to get him back into the mix. Hopefully the head hanchos over there decide to stick him back into the rotation sooner than later. so you're thinking AFTER the all-star break?

The good thing about PSD is that you can still respect great players for their performance even if you hate their team, etc. Anyway, there's a line in the Boston papers today (see the related thread) that suggests he may come back against the Yankees Saturday. His last start (5IP, 0R/ER) took only 50 pitches and the idea is that they're saving his bullets for when they count. Masterson (who'd otherwise be in line for the start) has pretty striking splits LHB vs RHB, with much worse control against lefties so it makes sense to shuffle him out against the Bombers lefty-heavy lineup. I still like the idea of keeping on a regular routine to keep his rhythm, but the switch also makes a lot of sense at this point.

RedSoxtober
07-02-2008, 08:03 AM
This guy would be a great pickup

On mlbtraderumors.com Buster Onley is reporting that the brewers have the lead for c.c. with the rays and red sox cloesly behind. I think that this would be a good pickup if we didnt have to give up major prospects.
I think a good deal would be Bowdoin Moss and maybe a hunter jones for him. And if we dont resign him we get two high picks which from the idians record would be a very high pick. I think if they would accept this deal i would pull the trigger


buddy i said Bowden that deal read it correctly.

My bad on the draft picks...

Well, buddy, you didn't say Bowden. You said "Bowdoin Moss and maybe hunter jones." Since you'd given Jones' full name and the grammar sucked I was left thinking that you simply butchered Moss' first name. And before you get too sarcastic, it's worth noting that I had the temerity to put a disclaimer on it ("If I understand this correctly..."), a pointer to the fact that I was having a hard time figuring out what you were talking about.

RedSoxtober
07-02-2008, 08:18 AM
Why bother going after relief right now...we have 30 days to test some people out for the rest of the year. Bring somebody up and let him have his throws in the majors. If nothing pans out strike the button and then get someone like Fuentes or Marte. Maybe even see if Arizona would pull the plug on Doug Slaten if the price is right Ask around to see if any bigger names are going...Timlin isn't going to be around forever and we're going to need someone like that to come in and eat an inning here or there. Huston Street would be nice, but knowing Beanie it will cost some extra. Will Ohman is a free agent after this season, not saying he is a solution, but a plug if needed.
About the Catching situation. Give K-Cash a shot. He seems to be someone to look at if the prospect catchers have fallen short. He's no Tek, but he's also a better fit for the organization at this point than Mirrabelli would have been. :horse:
One more thing, hold off on any trade if it involves Jed Lowrie unless we get top dollar. Cora is a free-agent to be and if we let him go, Lowrie takes his spot for the next 2 years until Lugo is gone. Then we have yet another farm grown young player on our team:clap:

The mistake here is to assume that deals are proposed and consumated in very short order. They are not. Both sides want to make sure they're getting value for their system when they make a deal so they spend time investigating not only the proposal but the options in the other team's system.

All that to say you don't do one or the other, you do both. You investigate deals and see what the farm has to offer. The Sox have options for the BP but they are not great. Hunter Jones is about the only reliever having a truly solid season in AAA. I believe they'll have Masterson back as a reliever late in the season and they could experiment with Hansack, too. Bard is a longer shot, though he's had 7 straight scoreless appearances (11.1IP, 9k/4bb, 0.70whip) since mid-June.

The problem is that all those guys are righties and the biggest hole the Sox have in the BP at the moment is the role that Okajima filled last year.


As for Cash... he's 30yrs old and hardly a prospect. He's a decent option at backup but I'd never want to reverse the roles between 'Tek and Cash, or see him take over as the regular. Cash is hitting .176 since May 1.

lil'papi
07-02-2008, 09:50 AM
I just don't see any major moves for pitching.

Bowden was talked about extensively the other night they said they believe the reason no Olympics was they expect him up in Boston by August.

Bowden is staying put. (IMHO)

We need offense if that's not clear enough. Ortiz is just one bat , we have other holes that need filling. Lugo? At this point Ellsbury needs to be dropped down.
Will they , probably not , because Tito loves to keep the faith.

Sabathia way too much to lose unless they plan on signing him. We can't give up Bowden and how can anyone put a ceiling on him yet? Dumb...
I like CC , but not as a rental, not for Bowden or Bard or any other top pitching prospect. I'd prefer a catcher for a prospect/package over him at this point.

Bard can't be worse than Hansen? or Timlin.....or Oki. Oki looks like he can't reach home plate. He has zero confidence. Hansen walks WAY too many guys for that role.

I agree a lefty gasser would be nice.

I still believe we go bat over arm. The more I watch the more obvious it becomes. Possibly two moves ...arm/bat.

We don't seem to hit hard throwers? I'm concerned about that. Anyone out there that we can get that clobbers hard throwers? Coco was supposed too. :rolleyes:

Bobby Kielty? .203 but a decent OBP .350

Jed Lowrie ?? We need a spark! We've been bobbing and weaving for a while now. 14 over to 17 over...we need to go 20 over...then 25 over.......not forwards-backwards.

celticfan
07-02-2008, 09:54 AM
what about Holliday?

Tragedy
07-02-2008, 10:15 AM
Bowden was talked about extensively the other night they said they believe the reason no Olympics was they expect him up in Boston by August.
Hmmm. Who said this?

I'm not so sure I buy into that; I'm not so sure he's ready for the majors quite yet. Maybe 2009, but THIS year? Hey, if he can come up and contribute I'm all for it, but I'm just not so sure.


what about Holliday?
As in Matt Holliday, or Doc Halladay? If you mean Matt (You must), then no thank you. As has been the story with many stars of the Rockies, he's a product of Coors. He's a good hitter outside of Coors, but his numbers are so deceptive because of where he plays half of his games.

Anyways, why take on Holliday? Where does he play? LF where Manny plays, CF where Crisp/Ellsbury plays, or RF where Drew plays? There isn't a place for him, especially when you consider what his price tag will be in terms of prospects.

Ewagner
07-02-2008, 11:10 AM
IMO Marte is a must and i think he will come cheap. i'm still not sold on a bat just yet. A question. Lugo's contract runs out after next year, correct? and coco's runs out after this year?

ThreeIfBaerga
07-02-2008, 11:35 AM
No, Lugo has two more years after this one and Coco has another year after this.



Honestly, the only real need for this team is bullpen help.

Lugo has been God-awful, but he's getting on base at a decent clip. Tek obviously isn't going anywhere, although I think he needs to start getting more days off. The only real problem this team has had is injuries. Think about it, they've missed time from Beckett, Dice-K, Lowell, Ortiz, Buchholz, Colon, Crisp. . . They've been filling holes all year (giggity), and have done a good job of it. Eventually they are going to get and stay healthy, and I fully expect them to go on a nice long run of dominance.

RedSoxtober
07-02-2008, 11:46 AM
IMO Marte is a must and i think he will come cheap. i'm still not sold on a bat just yet. A question. Lugo's contract runs out after next year, correct? and coco's runs out after this year?

Lugo is under contract through 2010, with a vesting option for 2011 that is very achievable (2400PA 2007-10 with 600PA in 2010) if Tito 'keeps the faith'.

Crisp is under contract through 2009, with a $8M option ($500K buyout) for 2010.

americanoutlaw
07-03-2008, 12:26 AM
The two biggest probleams that the Red Sox need to look to get help on is there bench and Bullpen where it been the major weak points of the team. With there bullpen the pitchers have been having with walks and controls and outside pitchers like Aardsma and Papelbon the bullpen pitchers have been bad. Now with the Bench Sean Casey doing a great job for what the Sox pay for him but with Alex Cora who is a good team leader has not been doing a lot for the Sox this Season. Kevin Cash has been doing what he was ask to do and that is to catch wake but with Wake's catchers in the past they been to be weak hitters.

Now Sox could call up some of there players down in the farm to help out the bench and bullpen. With the Bench the Red Sox could call up the likes of Jon Van Every,Jed Lowrie and Chris Carter all who have been putting up some great numbers with the PawSox. With the Bullpen the Sox could call up Eric Hull,Hunter Jones,Chris Smith and Charlie Zink who have been putting up great ERA that could help the Red Sox's bullpen down the Road.

With the trade deadline comming up I have seen some ideas toss around by the fans and been seeing who maybe up for grab I have to said Sox should enter deadline looking to do couple trades but just be careful. One player I like to see Red Sox look at for the bench is Mark Loretta I know the sox been there with Mark Loretta but he still someone you want in your clubhouse. I still see talks about trading for salty if the sox need trade some pitching for him than maybe try use Michael Bowden as part of the trade. salty has a lot power but still has to work on his catching skills but that one that sox could help him with catching skills with Gary Tuck on the team.

Have no idea to trade for bullpen help

RedSoxtober
07-03-2008, 08:22 AM
Bobby Kielty? .203 but a decent OBP .350


Kielty has been hurt most of the season. He just got into two rehab starts in Lowell before finally returning to PAW:


Bobby Kielty, who played two games for short-season Single A Lowell on a rehab assignment, rejoined Pawtucket last night and had two hits in five at-bats while playing right field. Kielty had been out with a strained oblique . . . Mike Timlin will be activated for tonight's game in New York. To make room, the Sox optioned righthander Chris Smith to Pawtucket

Regardless, if/when Ortiz returns I think Moss has played well enough to make Coco expendable, given that they can move Drew to CF if Ellsbury goes down.

lil'papi
07-03-2008, 08:54 AM
Didn't Ellsbury already go down? :D

People won't touch him , I will, he has been awful of late. Tito needs to move Pedy up for at least a short spell or Coco. Just let ellsy rest his mind.

Kielty I haven't followed ....he was hurt twice now? I like him to get moved up. He hits tough throwers or maybe that's me wishing.

Coco IMO isn't going anywhere this year unless its a good move for us. Manny on the other hand might get booted after this year.
Sign and trade? I'm done with him the antics are old. He has been babied long enough. Throwing traveling secretaries in their 60's down is just about as bad as it gets. Nobody can excuse that!

Cracks are forming. Maybe Manny is expendable? Maybe Theo makes a Nomar move with him? Back To Cleveland....they can throw in Sabathia. :D

RedSoxtober
07-03-2008, 09:25 AM
Kielty I haven't followed ....he was hurt twice now? I like him to get moved up. He hits tough throwers or maybe that's me wishing.
Yes. He had wrist surgery early and then strained an oblique almost immediately upon returning to action.


Coco IMO isn't going anywhere this year unless its a good move for us. Manny on the other hand might get booted after this year.
Sign and trade? I'm done with him the antics are old. He has been babied long enough. Throwing traveling secretaries in their 60's down is just about as bad as it gets. Nobody can excuse that!

Cracks are forming. Maybe Manny is expendable? Maybe Theo makes a Nomar move with him? Back To Cleveland....they can throw in Sabathia. :D

I agree about Manny. I know that fanboys are gonna whine about the best pure hitter in baseball and all that but that "best pure hitter" has not been getting things done the past two seasons, certainly not at a $20M rate, and that only serves to accentuate his negatives.

The altercation with McCormick was reprehensible and for once I agreed with Shaughnessey -- the Sox should have done something very public with him. Chacon got waived for basically the same thing (granted it was the last in a small series of events, but it was not tolerated).

All told I could see Manny being Manny somewhere else and it would not bother me that much.

Ewagner
07-03-2008, 10:05 AM
Yes. He had wrist surgery early and then strained an oblique almost immediately upon returning to action.



I agree about Manny. I know that fanboys are gonna whine about the best pure hitter in baseball and all that but that "best pure hitter" has not been getting things done the past two seasons, certainly not at a $20M rate, and that only serves to accentuate his negatives.

The altercation with McCormick was reprehensible and for once I agreed with Shaughnessey -- the Sox should have done something very public with him. Chacon got waived for basically the same thing (granted it was the last in a small series of events, but it was not tolerated).

All told I could see Manny being Manny somewhere else and it would not bother me that much.

i'm not on board with trading manny but if it does happen i'm 100% sure it will be via trade. there are only two teams i could see him going to and that is the dodgers or mets. i don't think the mets have anyone left in there farm system.

Tragedy
07-03-2008, 10:59 AM
All told I could see Manny being Manny somewhere else and it would not bother me that much.
If you asked me before the season what I would have thought about Ramirez in a different uniform in 2009, I would have been very unhappy saying it would never happen.

Now? Honestly, I just hope we pick up the options and trade him, like the Yankees did with Sheffield. I really thought he'd have a monster season after reading daily about how hard he'd been working out in the offseason, but instead, he might just BARELY reach 100 RBI's, barely reach 30 HR's, and probably isn't even going to reach .300 on the BA. To me, the past two seasons aren't just "slumps", they're a trend of his age taking a toll. He's starting to lose it.

...He's starting to lose it until we trade him to the Mariners, or something, and he hits 49 HR's.

moneyball
07-03-2008, 02:13 PM
Yes. He had wrist surgery early and then strained an oblique almost immediately upon returning to action.



I agree about Manny. I know that fanboys are gonna whine about the best pure hitter in baseball and all that but that "best pure hitter" has not been getting things done the past two seasons, certainly not at a $20M rate, and that only serves to accentuate his negatives.

The altercation with McCormick was reprehensible and for once I agreed with Shaughnessey -- the Sox should have done something very public with him. Chacon got waived for basically the same thing (granted it was the last in a small series of events, but it was not tolerated).

All told I could see Manny being Manny somewhere else and it would not bother me that much. Not bother you that much? You have bashed Manny on this site for 2 years.

GrkGawdofWalkz
07-03-2008, 02:19 PM
Fuentes is the first part of the bullpen upgrade I think. How can you not like his track record, as well as his stuff. and he's left handed. Better than Okajima and lopez. No offense to them.

futureheisman
07-03-2008, 02:53 PM
we need a shakeup in the bullpen.....
All the options that we have that we can do
There is Damso Marte whose Ba againist lefies is .178 he is an option
Bill Bray out of cincy great stuff-2.77 ERA and 27 K's in 26 innings
Arthur Rhodes-Another lefty who has been very good and wouldn't cost much
another guy out there that intrests me is brett myers. He caem back this year and didnt do well i wonder if get him out of philly and out of that ballpark and placing in our pen would turn him around.

Internal options- Bring up bucholtz and put him in the setup roll or start bucholtz and put materson in the setup roll.

Bring up Daniel Bard who has been lights out at portland this year. Hope he can be a spark.

Something needs to be done with this pen or it will be a long winter.

RedSoxtober
07-03-2008, 02:59 PM
Not bother you that much? You have bashed Manny on this site for 2 years.

If 'bashing him' is going against the fawning adoration he gets around here then yes I have bashed him. To the best of my recollection my negative comments on him include:

- he laid down on the team at the end of 2006
- he does not hit in games "close and late" (.240 avg 2005-2007, down to .235 this year)
- his defense is poor (rate2 of 88 in one of the easier defensive positions in one of the shorter LFs in MLB)
- he gives up on weakly hit balls and consequently has lost hits because he didn't run them out
- he refused to pinch hit during the playoff run
- he almost missed a play because he didn't think to use the bathroom off the dugout but went inside the green monster instead
- his indifference to the game is disturbing

You could probably find more. Only the last of those is entirely subjective. The first point is one that many people believe to be true and the second and third are based observation and backed by stats. For whatever reason, when it comes to Manny, those stats don't matter.

Despite all of that I was suggesting that his options would be picked up and assumed that it was a forgone conclusion even as late as May. He has had tremendous talent as a batter and the Sox would not have won two WS without him. His foibles were overshadowed by his abilities.

But it appears that that is no longer the case. Without a substantial improvement in the second half he's likely to see the second consecutive year of decline in avg, obp, and ops. He's in danger of falling short of 100RBI for the second consecutive year... but this time without missing any significant action... and not for lack of opportunities. His primary asset is seriously declining and exposing his weaknesses.

PapelbonLester
07-03-2008, 03:18 PM
wooooooooooooooooooow. how do you bash the best hitter on our team who brought us to the promise land 2 times in 4 years. RESPECT HIM

PapelbonLester
07-03-2008, 03:21 PM
i say we go out and sign barry bonds.

RedSoxRok34
07-03-2008, 06:08 PM
wooooooooooooooooooow. how do you bash the best hitter on our team who brought us to the promise land 2 times in 4 years. RESPECT HIM


i say we go out and sign barry bonds.

manny didn't bring the team to the promised land twice. he was on two championship teams. big difference. timlin was on both too. did he bring us there?

manny is a great hitter, yes. and i'll join you in saying don't trade him. with papi out, we need every good bat we can get. but he's never been the team leader, and never will be.

as for suggesting bonds, i remind you that crack is not good for your system, and im not just referring to the place where bonds sticks the needle. it would cost an exorbitant amount of money, and by the time he was ready to compete, papi will probably be back. so either bonds would join the already-crowded outfield, or papi will challenge youk for playing time at first. either situation is just ridiculous. o yeah, and the fact that he won't play in boston cuz we're too racist for him (his words, not mine)

RSF1977
07-03-2008, 06:38 PM
Hey you guys see the Aj Burnett chatter going around?
I am not good at quoting sources so I won't here.
Given the Mancrush that, I think? "Lucchino" has for AJ I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility that Lowrie goes to Toronto for him.
I know I know ,it is in the division and it would take a couple of more pieces to get done AND we have an abundance of pitching But I could still see it happening. He would be a GREAT addition to a playoff staff behind Beckett and Lester.
Any thoughts?

futureheisman
07-03-2008, 07:03 PM
No Burnett

NESports2004
07-03-2008, 08:52 PM
What kind of names do you think we could land for Manny?

As much as I hate to say it I think he has to leave.

I'd love it if we could land CC for him and more.

Also him leaving would free up LF for Dunn or JBay. This would also still keep or 3 4 lethal combo while adding CC to our staff. This move along with bullpen help moves could bring us another championship.

IMO we need to Make some moves because what we Have will not be enough as TB just proved.

RedSoxtober
07-03-2008, 09:30 PM
FWIW, I've never suggested or thought the Sox would trade Manny. They play him out through the end of the season, hoping he gets hot at some point. If he does they might get back to the WS. If he doesn't they get two first round picks.

vince wilfort
07-03-2008, 10:03 PM
Hey you guys see the Aj Burnett chatter going around?
I am not good at quoting sources so I won't here.
Given the Mancrush that, I think? "Lucchino" has for AJ I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility that Lowrie goes to Toronto for him.
I know I know ,it is in the division and it would take a couple of more pieces to get done AND we have an abundance of pitching But I could still see it happening. He would be a GREAT addition to a playoff staff behind Beckett and Lester.
Any thoughts?

Burnett doesn't interest me. I think he's too much of an injury risk and if he pitches badly, he'll just use his expensive option for next year. I think the rotation is set with all the depth.

papipapsmanny
07-03-2008, 10:18 PM
we need to trade these guys like lowrie, and carter, they would have great value

i feel theo has become a little to obsessed with these prospects and isnt letting them go, instead he lets them rot in AAA

papipapsmanny
07-03-2008, 10:19 PM
oh and masterson to the pen since buchholz is back

lil'papi
07-04-2008, 09:11 AM
FWIW, I've never suggested or thought the Sox would trade Manny. They play him out through the end of the season, hoping he gets hot at some point. If he does they might get back to the WS. If he doesn't they get two first round picks.

Me either.....:D I said that to stir thought on the subject.

I still ultimately believe they offer him a 3/42-45mil deal if he balks, buh-bye. He MUST have a monster half....for them to even consider a 20mil option. I don't see it....since the McCormick issue he has gone into a shell. He was also given leeway before his 500th homer. Maybe these slumps are age and his desire to get that extension. Maybe he is pressing mentally, maybe he is human? But , imo it's more age....

This guy went to API he obviously knew he was declining physically. Can't hit a 92mph FB now? Please....Manny used to hit them 500ft. He still has value , just not 20mils worth.



Manny on the other hand might get booted after this year.
Sign and trade? I'm done with him the antics are old. He has been babied long enough. Throwing traveling secretaries in their 60's down is just about as bad as it gets. Nobody can excuse that!

Cracks are forming. Maybe Manny is expendable? Maybe Theo makes a Nomar move with him? Back To Cleveland....they can throw in Sabathia.

tonyd3b54
07-04-2008, 10:36 PM
mannys always been vulnerable to a fb up thats 95 plus his recent struggles lately is becuase hes pulling his shoulder out to early causing him to drag his bat and lose bat speed... its nothing to do with age...manny i think is worth 20 mil a year but idont think any1 else out there will pay him that so we weont hav to either...

papipapsmanny
07-05-2008, 01:59 AM
we should trade lowrie and adam mills to the nats for rauch and guzman

we get a good bp arm, and **** lugo and put guzman there to get a 300 hitter in the 8 or 9 hole

it makes sense especially if they are just gonna let lowrie rot in AAA

Lord Byron 34
07-05-2008, 10:37 PM
we should trade lowrie and adam mills to the nats for rauch and guzman

we get a good bp arm, and **** lugo and put guzman there to get a 300 hitter in the 8 or 9 hole

it makes sense especially if they are just gonna let lowrie rot in AAA

The other option is letting Lowrie try playing SS. Couldn't be worse than Lugo.

moneyball
07-06-2008, 06:23 AM
The other option is letting Lowrie try playing SS. Couldn't be worse than Lugo.
Kramer would not be worse than Lugo:mad:

SportsFan17
07-06-2008, 08:39 AM
Bring In Bonds!

:)

(I know that wouldn't be a trade :P)

Ewagner
07-06-2008, 11:05 AM
You think there is any chance we trade lugo? i know his contract is huge but a team like the dodgers might take that. furcal is done for the year and his contract is up at the end of the year. just a thought. i think lowrie at this point would be a better option. he could hit in the nine whole and play better defense. i know depending on a rookie at this point in the year isn't the best idea but lugo is just bad. he looks lost at the plate.

Tragedy
07-06-2008, 11:14 AM
You think there is any chance we trade lugo? i know his contract is huge but a team like the dodgers might take that. furcal is done for the year and his contract is up at the end of the year. just a thought. i think lowrie at this point would be a better option. he could hit in the nine whole and play better defense. i know depending on a rookie at this point in the year isn't the best idea but lugo is just bad. he looks lost at the plate.
As much as I'd love to see the Red Sox unload Lugo, I really don't see it happening, especially with the Dodgers. If you remember, the last time Lugo was a member of LA:

.219 BA, 41+ OPS in 146 at bats. Almost Andruw Jones like!

WilymoPena
07-06-2008, 12:01 PM
I would bring in Bonds Immediately after we see that Papi wont be right, which I really dont think he will. I was actually talking to my doctor about the sheath in the hand and he said that without any type of surgery he does not know exactly how rest alone will be able to alleviate the pain and risk of further injury. Obviously he hasn't seen Papi's hand, but Im going with him on this one. Everytime you hear rehab instead of surgery how often does that realistically work out? Im willing to say not that often. I would bring in Bonds, I dont care if hes a typical Red Sox guy or not, hes the best player in MLB history and he deserves to go out with a Title, which he would help bring. Get another big bat in this lineup and alot of our problems go away. The pitching SP and BP are fine, we just arent getting big enough leads to help take some of the pressure off of those guys, but so far I like what I am seeing, except Lugo's defense, that guy is in a world of his own out there.

Corey
07-06-2008, 01:04 PM
And now, the latest from Ken Rosenthal's Full Count video: If the Braves decide to shop Mark Teixeira, they may have a tough time getting as much as they'd like. The Red Sox, Angels, and Diamondbacks - among other contenders - are set at 1B/DH with David Ortiz, Casey Kotchman, and Conor Jackson respectively. Rosenthal notes Boston will only pursue Teixeira if Ortiz's wrist fails to heal.
Link (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/boston_red_sox/)

Mr.drew
07-06-2008, 04:00 PM
i really wish the sox would give Lowrie more time, but i dont see it happening. what team out their would legit want Lugo and his contract the only way he is gone is if we package him with a big player in a monster deal or he eat his contract

homie564
07-06-2008, 04:33 PM
hey i just heard we got an insane trade offer for Julio Lugo

Lugo to sanfransisico for 21 cents and a muddy twig


i say do it... that muddy twig may be able to play better in that #9 spo than lugo... whatchu guys think :p





(this is not real if u people actually took this seriously lol)

ThreeIfBaerga
07-06-2008, 06:17 PM
The more I think about it the more I think the Red Sox will try to replace Manny with Texiera. If Manny can finish the season with a .950 OPS, which is by no means out of the realm of possibility, I'd offer to pick up his two options in return for him waiving his NTC. He's not going to get 2/$40 from anyone, and they could ship him off for prospects or pieces.

Maybe the Mets, I know he'd like to play in NY and he's good friends with Johan. Their system is barren though, the only player I'd really covet from that system would be Fernando Martinez, who hasn't really produced outside of 45 games in A ball two years ago. I understand he's well ahead of the curve, but I prefer a player to produce at the level he's at before he get moved up. Simply being really young for the league doesn't do it for me, I want the player to hit.

How about the Dodgers? He'd be a mess in their outfield, but they've needed a slugger in the worst way for the past 10 years. I'd love a package centered around James McDonald (who may be too highly regarded a prospect to get in a Manny deal by the time the off-season rolls around) or Chin-Lung Hu.

Then the biggest problem arises: outbidding the Yankees for Texiera. They could move Youk to left (I know, I know, he's a Gold Glove 1b, he deserves to keep his spot) but Youk is a smart guy who picked up 1b very very quickly. I'm sure he could handle LF at least as good as Manny has the past few years. Maybe if they promised a contract extension they'd get him to move to left without much of a stink.

Tex could easily replace what Manny's given the team the past few years with half the headlines. There was some bad blood between the Sox and Tex when he was coming out of HS, but last I heard he knew full well that this was a new ownership group/GM, and he had no problems with them at all. I think a Jacoby-Pedroia-Ortiz-Texiera-Drew-Lowell-Youk 1-7 would be flat out amazing.

futureheisman
07-06-2008, 07:28 PM
I like the idea with text and sign and trading manny. Maybe we could trade him to the rangers for michael young and a salty. i got a deal for you

Rangers Get:
OF Manny Ramirez
SS Jed lowrie
MDC

Red sox get:
SS michael young
C salty
RP C.j Wilson

I think this would be a great deal for the sox a fair deal as well.

you would free up some money to address the Bullpen and other areas.


So youre lineup next year would be:
CF Jed lowrie
2B: pedey
DH David ortiz
1B Mark T
SS michael young
3B Mike lowell
LF Kevin youklis
RF JD Drew
C jarrod saltamaccchia

I think this lineup would be one of the best in the game.

Youre Starting rotation

Josh Beckett
Dice K
Lester
Materson
Bucholtz

Bullpen

Cl: Johnathan Papelbon
Setup men
C.j Wilson
Okie
Craig Hansen
Daniel Bard

I think this team would cruise to the World Series

ThreeIfBaerga
07-06-2008, 07:31 PM
There's no way I'd want Young's deal. Any money saved by trading Manny would be taken up by having to take on Young's deal. He signed a 5 year deal in March paying him $80 mil total. No thank you. Stay far far away from that. I'd like to get Salty, but not in that deal.

Ewagner
07-06-2008, 09:55 PM
This team has a few weaknesses. i have no idea why there is any talk about getting Tex. he would be a rental that would go to the yankees after the season. The team needs to do something about lugo, that is the biggest problem right now. i believe when the rosters expand you will see lowrie playing a lot more at SS much like you saw ellsbury last year in the outfield. i believe is lowrie plays well after the rosters expand you could see him packaged with someone just to get him out of town.

our second biggest need would be a left handed bullpen arm. i can see them packaging one of our minor league pitchers to get one. i wouldn't be surprised to see a catching prospect thrown in with it.

to respond to that rangers trade. why would the rangers make this trade? they have bradley at DH, boggs who has promise, murphy, and hamilton. they don't need manny. if manny goes it will be to national league team and probable to the mets. like some said they really don't have much to offer.

vince wilfort
07-06-2008, 10:13 PM
I like the idea with text and sign and trading manny. Maybe we could trade him to the rangers for michael young and a salty. i got a deal for you

Rangers Get:
OF Manny Ramirez
SS Jed lowrie
MDC

Red sox get:
SS michael young
C salty
RP C.j Wilson

I think this would be a great deal for the sox a fair deal as well.

you would free up some money to address the Bullpen and other areas.


So youre lineup next year would be:
CF Jed lowrie
2B: pedey
DH David ortiz
1B Mark T
SS michael young
3B Mike lowell
LF Kevin youklis
RF JD Drew
C jarrod saltamaccchia

I think this lineup would be one of the best in the game.

Youre Starting rotation

Josh Beckett
Dice K
Lester
Materson
Bucholtz

Bullpen

Cl: Johnathan Papelbon
Setup men
C.j Wilson
Okie
Craig Hansen
Daniel Bard

I think this team would cruise to the World Series

They wanted to dump A-Rod's salary for a reason. There's no way they'd want Manny. And the Rangers won't trade Salty. They just gave up Teixera for him. They are clearly trying to get a new start.

americanoutlaw
07-06-2008, 11:03 PM
Hell,I will toss out a idea for a trade


Rangers Get
P-Michael Bowden
P-David Pauley
1B/OF-Brandon Moss
OF-Bubba Bell
p-Lincoln Holdzkom

Red Sox get
C/DH/1B-Jarrod Saltalamacchia


it will nevver happen but who knows

ThreeIfBaerga
07-06-2008, 11:10 PM
i have no idea why there is any talk about getting Tex. he would be a rental that would go to the yankees after the season.

I realize now this might not be the thread for it but I was thinking in terms of after this season.

Celts22
07-06-2008, 11:19 PM
Hell,I will toss out a idea for a trade


Rangers Get
P-Michael Bowden
P-David Pauley
1B/OF-Brandon Moss
OF-Bubba Bell
p-Lincoln Holdzkom

Red Sox get
C/DH/1B-Jarrod Saltalamacchia


it will nevver happen but who knows

It might just be me but IMO thats just way to much for an unproven prospect despite what position he plays.

americanoutlaw
07-06-2008, 11:36 PM
It might just be me but IMO thats just way to much for an unproven prospect despite what position he plays.

It a way all of the players in this idea are unproven

Celts22
07-06-2008, 11:38 PM
It a way all of the players in this idea are unproven

Except we're giving up 5 of them and getting only 1 in return

Tragedy
07-06-2008, 11:42 PM
Is it possible to trade our 25 players (And our record) to the Rays for their 24 players (I don't want that ****head Gomes) and their record?

It's fair.

yaowowrocket11
07-06-2008, 11:44 PM
Is it possible to trade our 25 players (And our record) to the Rays for their 24 players (I don't want that ****head Gomes) and their record?

It's fair.

They can keep Cliff Floyd too, and we add a player to be named.

americanoutlaw
07-06-2008, 11:44 PM
Except we're giving up 5 of them and getting only 1 in return


than added to idea

WilymoPena
07-07-2008, 03:03 AM
Call me nuts, but I think its much more likely that we get a jack Wilson, Marte deal in the next week or so. If the Pirates throw in Paulino or a Doumit I would do any sort of deal they wanted. A deal like this would make perfect sense for us, and we would only need part with something like a Moss, Bowden, Lowrie type package for three proven players. I would do it but then again I am from the you develop them to use them school of thinking and would rather have a mix of vets and spects. Think something more minor like this is a little more feasible than any Texas or Atl deal.

Tragedy
07-07-2008, 03:06 AM
Call me nuts, but I think its much more likely that we get a jack Wilson, Marte deal in the next week or so. If the Pirates throw in Paulino or a Doumit I would do any sort of deal they wanted. A deal like this would make perfect sense for us, and we would only need part with something like a Moss, Bowden, Lowrie type package for three proven players. I would do it but then again I am from the you develop them to use them school of thinking and would rather have a mix of vets and spects. Think something more minor like this is a little more feasible than any Texas or Atl deal.
I'm on board with Jack Wilson/Damaso Marte. Absolutely, 110%. Though, I'm sure people look at Wilson's BA and think he's some sort of offensive monster, you have to look deeper to see the poor guy has an OPS+ of 93. Nothing special, but he's a clear upgrade over Julio "Eric Gagne is my best friend" Lugo.

Get it done, Theo.

Ewagner
07-07-2008, 09:20 AM
Call me nuts, but I think its much more likely that we get a jack Wilson, Marte deal in the next week or so. If the Pirates throw in Paulino or a Doumit I would do any sort of deal they wanted. A deal like this would make perfect sense for us, and we would only need part with something like a Moss, Bowden, Lowrie type package for three proven players. I would do it but then again I am from the you develop them to use them school of thinking and would rather have a mix of vets and spects. Think something more minor like this is a little more feasible than any Texas or Atl deal.

this is the best proposal i have seen so far. i would be surprised if they gave up lowrie in any package. he seems to be the SS/3B of the future. I think Bowden, Moss, and another prospect. Jack wilson can play mutiple positions so he would be a great player off the bench or as a starter. i know we need marte. i don't know a lot about paulino but doumit is a hell of a talent. i'm not sure pittsburgh will be giving him up.

RedSoxtober
07-07-2008, 10:04 AM
I like the idea with text and sign and trading manny. Maybe we could trade him to the rangers for michael young and a salty. i got a deal for you

Rangers Get:
OF Manny Ramirez
SS Jed lowrie
MDC

Red sox get:
SS michael young
C salty
RP C.j Wilson

I think this would be a great deal for the sox a fair deal as well.


:puke:
I'm so sick of Salty deals I can't stand it any more. Please explain in detail how this works for the TEX team that just signed one of those players to a fat long term extension (Young, $80M/5yr) and traded away probably their best player, an annual all star and deserving gold glover, for a second (Salty), and their ****ing closer to boot. Oh, right, to stockpile in their logjammed OF. Got it.


Hell,I will toss out a idea for a trade


Rangers Get
P-Michael Bowden
P-David Pauley
1B/OF-Brandon Moss
OF-Bubba Bell
p-Lincoln Holdzkom

Red Sox get
C/DH/1B-Jarrod Saltalamacchia


it will nevver happen but who knows

It won't happen because it is an absolutely horrible deal.



G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
Salty 38 132 16 29 5 0 3 17 43 22 49 0 1 .331 .326 .220


Yeah, can't wait to replace .227 in the lineup with .220. Salty isn't that great defensively. He's supposed to be an offensive force, coveted enough as a switch hitting bat that the Braves tried to get him AB at 1B to get him in the lineup. Woo hoo. He hit .284 in the weaker league but his OBP (.333) was hardly something to drool over. Switching to the offensive league his hitting dropped, his OBP actually sliding under .300. That's 2007 Lugo territory. Oops, check that. It's sub-AGon. Why stop at five prospects? Let's send more to be outhit by 'Tek!

Sarcasm aside, Salty may be one of the most overrated prospects of all time. If he played any other position he'd barely draw half the interest. He hasn't hit much since playing slightly-younger than his peers at AA and has not merited nearly the attention he's garnered since getting to MLB. He has not shown much at the plate where his discipline (49K/22BB/132AB) has been terrible.

The Sox simply don't need a might-miss prospect that badly. I agree whole heartedly with lil'papi's observation: beware of guys ditched by the player development machine in ATL.

stevepark0
07-07-2008, 12:41 PM
Bullpen can be resolved relativly quickly.
Out:

RP-Lopez
RP-Hansen
RP-Timlin
SP-Masterson

In:
Chris Smith
SP-Charlie Zink
RP-Masterson
RP-Buchholtz

I understand both Masterson and Buchholtz are longterm starters but the need here and now is the pen so we use them where they can help us the most. Zink is an intresting possibility. Hes pitched 111.1 inninigs with only 34 walks and a 2.42 era. Also throws mid 80s fastball and cutter for strikes, using the same delivery as his knuckler. I am not certian but i think he could be better than wake and very consistant because of his ablility to throw other pitches. We should give it a shot.

Other moves:

Out:
Lugo
Crisp-only for a trade for a catcher that could split time with varitek as a starter. It pains me to say this but tek could be done offensively. He is still one of the greatest defensive catchers and widely respected by his peers as you can see being voted into the all-star game
Moss-Only because of his replacement is better.



In:
Lowerie-you saw his ability when he was here, he is considerably better than lugo.
Van Every-21HR an 50RBI at AAA better bat than moss
Kottaras-16 HRs 45RBI @ AAA- only if you cant trade crisp for a Catcher, or For cash if wakefield gets hurt

Also if we have room Chris Carter should be moved up .291 16 HRs 62 RBI


also move Daniel Bard to AAA and work him until hes ready for a possible Aug/Sept callup

americanoutlaw
07-07-2008, 02:37 PM
Rangers Get
P-Michael Bowden
P-David Pauley
1B/OF-Brandon Moss
OF-Bubba Bell
p-Lincoln Holdzkom

Red Sox get
C/DH/1B-Jarrod Saltalamacchia
P-Kason Gabbard

Ok i am trying make this idea better

RedSoxtober
07-07-2008, 04:08 PM
^^^ Certainly ironic (Gabbard), if not better. I just don't buy into the Salty hype any more. In my mind he's in a class with Hansen -- lots of hype and promise, flashes of skill, but a weakening MLB track record. I think all our catching prospects could hit .220 in MLB (except maybe Kottaras who's struggling to do it in AAA).

RedSoxtober
07-07-2008, 04:27 PM
Bullpen can be resolved relativly quickly.
Out:

RP-Lopez
RP-Hansen
RP-Timlin
SP-Masterson

In:
Chris Smith
SP-Charlie Zink
RP-Masterson
RP-Buchholtz

I understand both Masterson and Buchholtz are longterm starters but the need here and now is the pen so we use them where they can help us the most. Zink is an intresting possibility. Hes pitched 111.1 inninigs with only 34 walks and a 2.42 era. Also throws mid 80s fastball and cutter for strikes, using the same delivery as his knuckler. I am not certian but i think he could be better than wake and very consistant because of his ablility to throw other pitches. We should give it a shot.

Other moves:

Out:
Lugo
Crisp-only for a trade for a catcher that could split time with varitek as a starter. It pains me to say this but tek could be done offensively. He is still one of the greatest defensive catchers and widely respected by his peers as you can see being voted into the all-star game
Moss-Only because of his replacement is better.



In:
Lowerie-you saw his ability when he was here, he is considerably better than lugo.
Van Every-21HR an 50RBI at AAA better bat than moss
Kottaras-16 HRs 45RBI @ AAA- only if you cant trade crisp for a Catcher, or For cash if wakefield gets hurt

Also if we have room Chris Carter should be moved up .291 16 HRs 62 RBI


also move Daniel Bard to AAA and work him until hes ready for a possible Aug/Sept callup

Yikes! I hate to say it but I don't get the love for Smith. He had exactly one good MLB outing and became the darling of the bloggers. Did everyone miss his second outing as badly as he missed the plate during it? Ouch. He might be a flash-in-the-pan help but I have my doubts about much more than that. Definitely nothing I'd have the second half on.

Buchholz and Masterson both going to the pen so that Zink can start makes very little sense. We'd be an oddity for having 2 knuckleballers in the rotation but the circus novelty would fade quickly. Buchholz and Masterson have demonstrated the chops to start in MLB; it makes no sense to send them both to the pen where neither has much experience in light of that. Not everyone makes a good reliever -- why risk it?

ThreeIfBaerga
07-07-2008, 07:00 PM
Yikes! I hate to say it but I don't get the love for Smith. He had exactly one good MLB outing and became the darling of the bloggers. Did everyone miss his second outing as badly as he missed the plate during it? Ouch. He might be a flash-in-the-pan help but I have my doubts about much more than that. Definitely nothing I'd have the second half on.

Buchholz and Masterson both going to the pen so that Zink can start makes very little sense. We'd be an oddity for having 2 knuckleballers in the rotation but the circus novelty would fade quickly. Buchholz and Masterson have demonstrated the chops to start in MLB; it makes no sense to send them both to the pen where neither has much experience in light of that. Not everyone makes a good reliever -- why risk it?



Smith was a high draft pick and has had a rough path to the majors, to say the least. He broke his pitching arm in 02, and has had other arm troubles as a result of it. He's got ML quality stuff, at least as a back-end bullpen option. This is his first shot at the majors, he's bound to have some growing pains along with his good outings.

WilymoPena
07-07-2008, 07:35 PM
As with the Pirates, the Nationals matchup fairly well in terms of their/our needs. We can clearly use some competition at SS and C as well as RP. Think about this Sox get, C Jesus Flores, SS Cristian Guzman, Luis Ayala Nationals Recieve SS Jed Lowrie, 1b Chris Carter, RP Chris Smith

Let me explain why this makes sense for both teams. The sticking point btw will be Flores. He is considered the Nationals catcher of the future, but he is not a "top" prospect necessarily. They also have LoDuca and Estrada at C if I am not mistaken. Ok so into the meat of the discussion

Luis Ayala #56 RP
2008 STATS
ERA HLD SO WHIP
5.40 18 29 1.50

Full Name Luis Ignacio Ayala
Birth Date January 12, 1978
Birth Place Los Mochis, Mexico
Age 30
Weight 198 lbs.
Height 6-1
Pronounced eye-YA-lah
Bats Right
Throws Right
Experience 4 years
Salary 2008: $1,700,000


Jesus David Flores
Birth Date October 26, 1984
Birth Place Carupano, Venezuela
Age 23
Weight 230 lbs.
Height 6-0
Bats Right
Throws Right
Experience 1 years
Salary 2008: $400,000
SPLITS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Season 50 161 12 44 14 0 4 30 13 44 0 1 .273 .331 .435 .766


Full Name Christian Antonio Guzman
Birth Date March 21, 1978
Birth Place Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic
Age 30
Weight 213 lbs.
Height 6-0
Pronounced GOOZ-man
Bats B
Throws Right
Experience 8 years
Salary 2008: $4,200,000
SPLITS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Season 87 380 50 119 25 2 5 29 14 31 3 3 .313 .340 .429 .769
Currently 6th in NL BA

Washington isn't doing anything this year and if they are smart will be looking to deal payroll and add some young prospects. I actually think this is a deal that can get done, as it doesnt involve star players rather more role oriented players of the sort a contender can not live without. Flores would immediately become the starter next yr or would certainly be the backup if Tek is back, plus he is only 23 so he has time to learn from the best while Tek is still around. Ayala is 30 and while his number are average at best, he is a veteran pitcher who holds some value and is making 1.7 million this year, easily replaced for Washington much more cheaply by Smith, remember a good trade is one in which both teams benefit. Now onto Chris Carter. I know we got Carter from the Nationals, but with Nick Johnson perpetually banged up (out for the season this yr) and Dmitri Young ( funny last name cuz he isn't) They could use a young quality hitter to man the bag at first. Also, Lowrie gives the Nationals a cheaper alternative to Lowrie in the years ahead at either 2b or SS, they also have Felipe Lopez who has experience at both positions. This deal just makes too much sense, Guzman is a veteran IF since his days in Minnesotta and he is 6th in NL BA. He MUST be better than Lugo, if nothing else he wont lead the league in errors. I think this deal makes alot of sense for both clubs. And even better Saltalamacchia isn't involved in any remote way lol. Let me know what you think.

WilymoPena
07-07-2008, 07:50 PM
Also you could substitute Lars Anderson for Carter and swap Ayala for Rauch, i think that would be similar value in the deal strucutre I laid out. Also, Guzman while not as speedy as he was in his days in MN has experience leading off. Only 3 stl's 3 cs so kinda worrisome should Francona send him, but he is a smart baserunner. Plus he would most likely bat 8 or 9 on the Sox but in a pinch he could leadoff. Also, from what I know, Ayala is a sinkerballer, I think he had Tommy John surgery a few years back, but the fact he is a sinkerballer could help his numbers on a contender and give us an additional veteran presence. Obv, we would all like Rauch but I think it would be quite a bit more expensive to get his services.

WilymoPena
07-07-2008, 07:53 PM
CINCINNATI — Booed three years ago by fans at RFK Stadium during an abysmal season, Cristian Guzman was celebrated Sunday by the Washington Nationals as their 2008 All-Star.

Guzman, who leads the National League in hits and has been Washington's most-consistent player all season, was named a reserve shortstop by NL manager Clint Hurdle. He will be the lone player in a Nationals uniform July 15 at Yankee Stadium.

"This is real special for me," he said.

Sunday's announcement represented the zenith of Guzman's career with the Nationals, which for three years had been marked by injuries and poor performance.

One of the first players signed by general manager Jim Bowden after the franchise relocated from Montreal, Guzman endured an abysmal 2005 season in which he was routinely booed by Washington fans and needed a late surge to raise his batting average to .219.

Guzman's next two seasons were derailed by injuries: a torn labrum in his right shoulder that caused him to miss all of 2006, and hamstring and thumb ailments that kept him from playing in all but 46 games in 2007.

But thanks to the combination of laser eye surgery he had before 2006, the surgically repaired shoulder and a refinement to his swing, Guzman has resurfaced this season as one of the best pure hitters in baseball.

His .315 average entering play Sunday ranked sixth in the NL, and his 118 hits were tied with Texas' Ian Kinsler for the major league lead.

"No one's worked harder," Bowden said. "And we're just very happy that he's now a two-time All-Star, not a one-time All-Star."

Guzman, who previously made the All-Star Game in 2001 with the Twins, is the first Washington-based All-Star shortstop since the Senators' Rocky Bridges was selected to the AL squad in 1958. (Bridges did not play in that game.)

He will be one of three shortstops on this year's NL roster. Florida's Hanley Ramirez won the starting assignment in a close race in fan voting. Houston's Miguel Tejada was voted by players as a backup. Hurdle then chose Guzman as one of his seven managerial selections.


Peter Lockley / The Washington Times Cristian Guzman is the first Washington-based All-Star shortstop since 1958.

"He really earned it," Nationals manager Manny Acta said. "He's put up the numbers. He's been out there pretty much every day and is leading the league in hits. I congratulate the kid."

A soft-spoken native of the Dominican Republic who usually doesn't garner much attention in the Washington clubhouse despite his important role on the roster, Guzman attributes much of his resurgence to improved eyesight.

"I can see it. I can feel it," he said. "When you can see better, you work better."

That, and a positive approach even when things weren't going well, has brought the 30-year-old back to the top of his sport. He's enjoying the best season of his career, and he can't wait to share the spotlight next week with his fellow All-Stars.

"Like I said before, this is the only game they have that day," he said. "Everybody has to watch."

-Washington Times

Ewagner
07-07-2008, 08:47 PM
Also you could substitute Lars Anderson for Carter and swap Ayala for Rauch, i think that would be similar value in the deal strucutre I laid out. Also, Guzman while not as speedy as he was in his days in MN has experience leading off. Only 3 stl's 3 cs so kinda worrisome should Francona send him, but he is a smart baserunner. Plus he would most likely bat 8 or 9 on the Sox but in a pinch he could leadoff. Also, from what I know, Ayala is a sinkerballer, I think he had Tommy John surgery a few years back, but the fact he is a sinkerballer could help his numbers on a contender and give us an additional veteran presence. Obv, we would all like Rauch but I think it would be quite a bit more expensive to get his services.

all this was an excellent read. unfortuantely i can't agree with any of it. i can't see them giving up lowrie as he seems to be the future at SS. whether that is the end of this year or next year. 2nd problem the bull pen as much overall help it needs lefty is the bigger need. Guzman is an excellent player, not a superstar, but i ust don't see the point of giving up average for average. 3rd no way they give up jesus. i've watched a few nationals game. loduca is a stop gap until jesus is ready. estrada i beleive is a free agent at the end of the year. i like the thought process though

WilymoPena
07-07-2008, 09:00 PM
Well my thinking is each team trades promis for production. Here's the thinking, with about 6 million in salary coming to the Sox and only about 2 going to the Nationals along with prospects, they could in time use that savings to go after a free agent or two. In taking Guzman and Ayala, we would effectively be taking alot of "dead weight" from the Nationals. Guzman was as good as done this time last year and this proposal is about as fair value as I think they will get for him. Acta is good with young players, and Lowrie is just about major league ready at this point. My thinking is Carter, Lopez Lowrie and Zimmerman is a darn good start at a rebuilding teams future. Add Elijah Dukes, Wily Mo Pena, Lastings Milledge and you have quite a formidible team 2 to 3 yrs from now. Of course there are different contortions to this deal for instance swapping Lopez for Guzman, however Lopez makes more than Guzman about 800,000 I believe and hasn't had the numbers Guzman has this year. Also, as I had said Flores is the key to the deal. Im not sure about the farm system in terms of Catchers for the Nationals, but I would not be opposed to throughing Kottaras into the mix in order to get him if that was the sticking point. But with the Sox taking on so much salary from the Nationals, the Nationals should be prepared to give up a little bit. Plus like I said earlier they aren't going anywhere soon so why not try and get some guys that can fill needs when the team is actually a contender? The Nationals also need pitching, so I mean the Sox could thro Bowden in the deal in place of Lowrie and we aren't losing that much. either way a deal like this is cost effective, doesn't devoid the farm of talent, and adds to areas of need. I think this or the Pirates deal I mentioned earlier are two of the most possible types of deals we will see. You can forget Ben Sheets or Roy Oswalt or Rich Harden. We're much more likely to see minor deals if any.

futureheisman
07-07-2008, 09:26 PM
Also you could substitute Lars Anderson for Carter and swap Ayala for Rauch, i think that would be similar value in the deal strucutre I laid out. Also, Guzman while not as speedy as he was in his days in MN has experience leading off. Only 3 stl's 3 cs so kinda worrisome should Francona send him, but he is a smart baserunner. Plus he would most likely bat 8 or 9 on the Sox but in a pinch he could leadoff. Also, from what I know, Ayala is a sinkerballer, I think he had Tommy John surgery a few years back, but the fact he is a sinkerballer could help his numbers on a contender and give us an additional veteran presence. Obv, we would all like Rauch but I think it would be quite a bit more expensive to get his services.

I like this deal. Guzman over lugo and this sinker baller to prduce groundballs.
I think this could turn around a season. Finding an underrated guy like guzman the only problem is getting rid of lugo. How are you going to do it. You cant trade him b/c no one will take him benching him could cause a problem in the clubhouse. The only way i see is DhimFA Then outright cutting him. This gives another year for lowrie to develop. i wouldnt bring him up and have him rot on the bench.

WilymoPena
07-07-2008, 09:43 PM
Well exactly, thats the issue, you sign Lugo for big money now what do you do with him? Frankly I would tell him up front, listen your production stinks we were fine with the errors as long as you hit. you aren't hitting, so you've played yourself onto the bench, you dont like it, workout a buyout and see ya later. Im not too worried about him, if he leaves the sox on bad terms he's probably done. Ayala isn't a star dont get me wrong, think of him as a poor mans Timlin. He's serviceable, but he used to be good and he has lots of experience. Basically its a salaty dump type deal that just happens to help us. If it takes another prospect to get Flores included, depending on who it is I do it, but most likely it would have to be a pitcher Im thinking Bard, Bowden either I mean or a combo of two lesser guys (Zink, Smith) but I really think my original idea is about right in terms of value. If you get Guzman you dont need Lowrie.

Ayala's career stats
SPLITS G GS CG IP H R ER HR BB SO W L SV HLD BLSV WHIP ERA
Season 47 0 0 43.1 48 29 26 5 17 29 1 4 0 18 3 1.50 5.40
Career 305 0 0 318.0 323 125 112 31 71 206 27 28 9 86 14 1.24 3.17

Also I believe Guzman is in his walk yr which would be 4 mil off the books, giving up Lowrie could be a tough pill to swallow, but my thinking is we would still have Lugo, and we could still make a play for a SS this winter. Its all about now with this Sox team, as Wake and Schilling and Tek and lowell and Manny and Ortiz aren't getting any younger. I would personally take the risk involved, get the catcher of the future, give him a yr or two working with Tek and reap the rewards, while still finding a decent SS through trade or FA next yr. Plus if Guzman worked out it wouldnt be beyond reason that we could resign him, heck we gave Lugo all that money for this production Guzman cant be much worse.

ThreeIfBaerga
07-07-2008, 10:18 PM
WMP, I take it you liked the Bagwell for Anderson trade? I seriously think you underestimate the promise of Bowden, Anderson and Lowrie if you're willing to ship them out for patches. Thats what the Mosses, Zinks and Carters are for. Shipping out top prospects for guys who aren't long term impact players is foolish. Thats how you get to where the Yankees were a few years ago.

Lord Byron 34
07-07-2008, 10:57 PM
Shipping out top prospects for guys who aren't long term impact players is foolish. Thats how you get to where the Yankees were a few years ago.

Good point. Theo and Co. are far too intelligent to ship off all of the top prospects for stop-gap guys. If anything, they lean too much the other way, refusing to part with young guys even for impact players.

Things are not as bad as they seem: Currently, the sox are 4 games behind Tampa (a team that is at best unproven, with many young arms waiting to collapse), and the Yankees look bad.
Ortiz is out. Dice K just got back. Beckett has been off. They had lost their last 7 one run games before tonite. Manny is ice cold. Delcarmen, Okajima, Timlin and Hansen have been awful, even Papelbon has been unusually hittable. And they are only four games behind a team few believe will be there in the end.

I say, give Masterson a chance in the pen, and Lowrie a chance at SS. Then, if necessary, make a smaller move at the deadline. A trade for someone like a Gagne would be a good idea, provided that player doesn't completely forget how to pitch once he gets here:mad:.

It's a long season

WilymoPena
07-07-2008, 11:06 PM
WMP, I take it you liked the Bagwell for Anderson trade? I seriously think you underestimate the promise of Bowden, Anderson and Lowrie if you're willing to ship them out for patches. Thats what the Mosses, Zinks and Carters are for. Shipping out top prospects for guys who aren't long term impact players is foolish. Thats how you get to where the Yankees were a few years ago.

Ok first you need to read all the posts on that page regarding the proposal. I NEVER said include Bowden Anderson AND Lowrie. Of course that would be foolish. And in the proposal, we wouldn't be getting "patches" I hardly call a 23 yr old catcher a patch. Guzman the No. 6 Avg hitter in the NL and MLB league hit leader is a patch? hardly. I was talking purely based on what it would take to get Flores and Guzman. Ayala was purely a sweetener to make a deal go smoothly. remember, this is the same team that shipped Gabbard and Murphy to Tx for a couple months of Gagne, so they have made worse deals. This deal is minor in scale. to give up a Lowrie is no huge price to pay and it makes sense to do so in order to win now and have our starting catcher for years to come. Lowrie may turn out to be the next Jeter, but is that really likely? Any trade involves taking a chance and not many work out like the Volquez/Hamilton swap. I think Lowrie, Carter and Smith would be a fair price for the like of Flores, Guzman and Ayala. If you don't like the deal that is fine, but it is nonsense to compare every deal to bagwell/Anderson.

WilymoPena
07-07-2008, 11:11 PM
Also, you need to take into account another teams needs when trading players. The Nationals already have a crowded outfield. Their major needs are pitching, 1b, young IF. Its great to assume that we can get any player we want in baseball for our scraps but thats not realistic. There are people on here who want to give up half the farm system for salty. I make realistic proposals based on value and need. You don't have to like the players I had involved in a potential deal, but it makes sense for both sides. What is more important? young IF or a starting catcher? I would have to think catcher. Also, don't we have another young IF in our system a few years away? Based on your assesment, it seems to me like in hindsight you would not have given up Hanley and Anibal Sanchez for Beckett and Lowell. It takes talent to get talent. Thats the main point. Lowrie looks like he will be a decent player but he's no superstar.

yaowowrocket11
07-08-2008, 12:26 AM
I'm on board with Jack Wilson/Damaso Marte. Absolutely, 110%. Though, I'm sure people look at Wilson's BA and think he's some sort of offensive monster, you have to look deeper to see the poor guy has an OPS+ of 93. Nothing special, but he's a clear upgrade over Julio "Eric Gagne is my best friend" Lugo.

Get it done, Theo.

A deal getting Wilson and Marte would be great. Also, call me crazy, but sign Bonds, and somehow get another reliever, and I think the team's success could turn around quickly.

ThreeIfBaerga
07-08-2008, 12:35 AM
Ok first you need to read all the posts on that page regarding the proposal. I NEVER said include Bowden Anderson AND Lowrie. Of course that would be foolish. And in the proposal, we wouldn't be getting "patches" I hardly call a 23 yr old catcher a patch. Guzman the No. 6 Avg hitter in the NL and MLB league hit leader is a patch? hardly. I was talking purely based on what it would take to get Flores and Guzman. Ayala was purely a sweetener to make a deal go smoothly. remember, this is the same team that shipped Gabbard and Murphy to Tx for a couple months of Gagne, so they have made worse deals. This deal is minor in scale. to give up a Lowrie is no huge price to pay and it makes sense to do so in order to win now and have our starting catcher for years to come. Lowrie may turn out to be the next Jeter, but is that really likely? Any trade involves taking a chance and not many work out like the Volquez/Hamilton swap. I think Lowrie, Carter and Smith would be a fair price for the like of Flores, Guzman and Ayala. If you don't like the deal that is fine, but it is nonsense to compare every deal to bagwell/Anderson.

Have you ever looked at Guzman's career stats? This year is a complete fluke. I want nothing to do with Guzman. Flores you're right, I agree he'd be a great pickup. But they committed a roster spot for a full year because they believe in what he can do.

Bringing up the Gagne deal pretty much makes my point. Gabbard and Murphy were spare parts with no real future in Boston. Beltre was a young hot headed project. If the Sox want a new SS, they'll just give the job to Lowrie.

redsox96
07-08-2008, 08:12 AM
QUOTE: futureheisman
So youre lineup next year would be:
CF Jed lowrie:speechless: CF?
2B: pedey
DH David ortiz
1B Mark T
SS michael young
3B Mike lowell
LF Kevin youklis:speechless: LF?
RF JD Drew:confused: that far down???? 16 hrsthis yer
C jarrod saltamaccchia

I think this lineup would be one of the best in the game.


thats HORRIBLE positions! lowrie CF?????
YOUUUUUUUUK LF?????? hes a horrible outfielder

this is wat id make the lineup:

drew
pedroia
papi
manny
texeria
youk
lowell
lowrie
then a catcher

futureheisman
07-08-2008, 08:48 AM
QUOTE: futureheisman
So youre lineup next year would be:
CF Ellusbury
2B: pedey
DH David ortiz
1B Mark T
SS michael young
3B Mike lowell
LF Kevin youklis:speechless: LF?
RF JD Drew:confused: that far down???? 16 hrsthis yer
C jarrod saltamaccchia

I think this lineup would be one of the best in the game.


thats HORRIBLE positions! lowrie CF?????
YOUUUUUUUUK LF?????? hes a horrible outfielder

this is wat id make the lineup:

drew
pedroia
papi
manny
texeria
youk
lowell
lowrie
then a catcher

I didnt write ellusbury

lil'papi
07-08-2008, 08:58 AM
this is wat id make the lineup:

drew
pedroia
papi
manny
texeria
youk
lowell
lowrie
then a catcher

So where does tex fit in or youk or lowell? The only way we get tex is if we don't re-sign manny which could be the case , imo.

Then we deal youk unless tex wants to roam LF? Many more moves would be needed or at least youk. I like the guy but prefer more pop in that spot.

I don't think tex is worth a 20mil per deal that I hear he wants. I say screw borass ....keep youk ...unless the coin is right.

We have some nice guys coming up this winter in FA. fielder would add some spice....

So much depends on the Manny deal. I'm still of the notion they offer a 3/42-45 deal and he walks. This serves us well money wise and we could get more athletic.

Nevermind afford a tex or big bat and a stud pitcher. I prefer they think about more pop ortiz is older, manny is well whats left of him now. :eyebrow:

.......how did you get rid of Lugo's contract? :confused:

RedSoxtober
07-08-2008, 10:13 AM
We have some nice guys coming up this winter in FA. fielder would add some spice....


Should read:
Fielder would add some weight to the lineup.

Regardless, he's only hitting his first year of arbitration this winter. How do we get him?

Who do you like on the FA market? I honestly don't see anyone worth making a strong effort with unless they choose to let Manny go. Hudson would be nice but only if they could move him to SS and dump Lugo. Under the same circumstances Furcal or O-Cab would be an upgrade though I'm not a big enough fan of Furcal to break the bank for him.

C/1b/3b are all bankrupt and OF/SP only have names with options. I'm sure that Crawford, Vlad, Lackey, Harden, Penny all get renewed. The others (Burnett, Garland, Lowe, CC, Sheets) will be too pricey.

RP has some decent names. Given the troubles in the pen I could see the Sox getting very active here. It's a gamble given how erratic RPs can be. Beimel and Marte could be worth talking to. Fuentes will be vastly overvalued.

WilymoPena
07-08-2008, 02:31 PM
Have you ever looked at Guzman's career stats? This year is a complete fluke. I want nothing to do with Guzman. Flores you're right, I agree he'd be a great pickup. But they committed a roster spot for a full year because they believe in what he can do.

Bringing up the Gagne deal pretty much makes my point. Gabbard and Murphy were spare parts with no real future in Boston. Beltre was a young hot headed project. If the Sox want a new SS, they'll just give the job to Lowrie.

Ok so you're a future over now guy. Thats alright I guess. Im almost positive though Lowrie will be on a different team soon, as well as Moss. Don't get too attached.

RSF1977
07-08-2008, 03:18 PM
Wmp,

I gotta dissagree with Lowrie and Moss being moved. In my little world :rolleyes: I see Moss taking over the Hinske roll of last year minus the right handed bat that is. And I have to think with the SS market as it is that the Sox would Really have to hang onto Lowrie and have him take Cora's spot.
I am a win now and win later guy:D
I think if anybody gets moved in a trade it will be Bowden "ouch" But I think he is one of the best trading chips the Sox have right now.
Who knows? We can all Speculate its a crapshoot. Nobodies right until it happens:p

Ewagner
07-08-2008, 04:18 PM
Wmp,

I gotta dissagree with Lowrie and Moss being moved. In my little world :rolleyes: I see Moss taking over the Hinske roll of last year minus the right handed bat that is. And I have to think with the SS market as it is that the Sox would Really have to hang onto Lowrie and have him take Cora's spot.
I am a win now and win later guy:D
I think if anybody gets moved in a trade it will be Bowden "ouch" But I think he is one of the best trading chips the Sox have right now.
Who knows? We can all Speculate its a crapshoot. Nobodies right until it happens:p

i can't see the red sox giving up lowrie. if they were going to trade him or was in the discussion he would have been playing right now to show what he could do. moss on the other hand i think will be packaged and sent. bowden or bard will be sent with him. usually if someone in AAA and is going to be traded they are brought up to the majors to show there value since that is most likely where they will playing when they get to there new team. lowrie is our SS next year. something will happen with lugo unless he turns it around after this year. i can see lowrie doing to lugo what ellsbury did to coco last year. don't be shocked to see lugo packaged with bowden or bard to get him out of town. i can see him going to the pirates if we eat some of his contract for wilson, marte, and paulino.

stevepark0
07-08-2008, 04:48 PM
Bullpen can be resolved relativly quickly.
Out:

RP-Lopez
RP-Hansen
RP-Timlin
SP-Masterson

In:
RP-Chris Smith
SP-Charlie Zink
RP-Masterson
RP-Wakefield

Zink is an intresting possibility. Hes pitched 111.1 inninigs with only 34 walks and a 2.42 era. Also throws mid 80s fastball and cutter for strikes, using the same delivery as his knuckler. I am not certian but i think he could be better than wake and very consistant because of his ablility to throw other pitches. We should give it a shot.

Other moves:

Out:
Lugo-Vizquel is on trade block he is CHEEP and way better offensively and defensively
Crisp-only for a trade for a catcher that could split time with varitek as a starter. It pains me to say this but tek could be done offensively. He is still one of the greatest defensive catchers and widely respected by his peers as you can see being voted into the all-star game
Moss-Only because of his replacement is better.



In:
Lowerie-you saw his ability when he was here, he is considerably better than lugo.
Van Every-21HR an 50RBI at AAA better bat than moss
Kottaras-16 HRs 45RBI @ AAA- only if you cant trade crisp for a Catcher, or For cash if wakefield gets hurt

Also if we have room Chris Carter should be moved up .291 16 HRs 62 RBI


also move Daniel Bard to AAA and work him until hes ready for a possible Aug/Sept callup

ThreeIfBaerga
07-08-2008, 06:00 PM
Ok so you're a future over now guy. Thats alright I guess. Im almost positive though Lowrie will be on a different team soon, as well as Moss. Don't get too attached.

No, I'm both. I was all for the Hanley/Beckett+Lowell trade, and Hanley was my favorite player at the time. I knew what Hanley could become, but I knew what Beckett could become.

I know what Lowrie and Anderson can become, and I know that Guzman is what he is, a crappy hitting SS having a career year. I'd rather not sell the farm for that. I'm fine with dealing Lowrie, I honestly am. The caveat to that, however, is that I'd want someone who is going to provide production for the next few years in return for him, because he's the kind of player who can have a future on this team.

futureheisman
07-08-2008, 07:51 PM
lars anderson is a 1b we dont anymore in our system. some of these prospects you could deal

WilymoPena
07-08-2008, 10:53 PM
No, I'm both. I was all for the Hanley/Beckett+Lowell trade, and Hanley was my favorite player at the time. I knew what Hanley could become, but I knew what Beckett could become.

I know what Lowrie and Anderson can become, and I know that Guzman is what he is, a crappy hitting SS having a career year. I'd rather not sell the farm for that. I'm fine with dealing Lowrie, I honestly am. The caveat to that, however, is that I'd want someone who is going to provide production for the next few years in return for him, because he's the kind of player who can have a future on this team.

Well if you look at the deal it is basically Lowrie for Flores, with Guzman being thrown in based on impending FA, with Ayala thrown in to get rid of some more salary on the Nationals part. I mean we can argue all day about Lowrie, but as long as Pedroia is at 2b I think you are doing a diservice to Lowrie by putting him at short.

WilymoPena
07-08-2008, 10:53 PM
And getting rid of Lowrie would not be selling the farm at all. Thats a ridiculous statement

lil'papi
07-09-2008, 08:33 AM
Should read:
Fielder would add some weight to the lineup.

Regardless, he's only hitting his first year of arbitration this winter. How do we get him?

Who do you like on the FA market? I honestly don't see anyone worth making a strong effort with unless they choose to let Manny go. Hudson would be nice but only if they could move him to SS and dump Lugo. Under the same circumstances Furcal or O-Cab would be an upgrade though I'm not a big enough fan of Furcal to break the bank for him.

C/1b/3b are all bankrupt and OF/SP only have names with options. I'm sure that Crawford, Vlad, Lackey, Harden, Penny all get renewed. The others (Burnett, Garland, Lowe, CC, Sheets) will be too pricey.

RP has some decent names. Given the troubles in the pen I could see the Sox getting very active here. It's a gamble given how erratic RPs can be. Beimel and Marte could be worth talking to. Fuentes will be vastly overvalued.

Simple really , fire sale. They can't afford him and if they don't win it this year they will be selling. They have too. Do I really want him, no.

I heard last night like everyone else did that watches RS pregame is that Matt Holliday is a guy they like. How do we get him? Same way.....trade.

Manny made a serious blunder and his numbers are way down. I firmly believe they aren't keeping him unless its under different $$ terms.
My opinion.

If they don't keep him they will replace him with a younger more upside guy. Common sense. Holliday has what one more year after this on his deal? He isn't a big risk moneywise if he sucks it up Lugo-like.

Sheets? CC? They also mentioned Boston inquired about CC but they wanted Bowden who Boston won't part with.

I didn't really think it through on the FA market next year or who else might be available. We could get a Sheets or CC and a bat elsewhere , or this year through a deal.

This year.....I agree a BP arm might be all thats needed. But if Holliday comes up SELL , I hear they might buy. If they do .....expect Manny's extension to go buh -bye.

If not they make a offer of 3/42-45mil. If he refuses we deal for someone. I just believe his time might be up.

RedSoxtober
07-11-2008, 08:48 AM
Simple really , fire sale. They can't afford him and if they don't win it this year they will be selling. They have too. Do I really want him, no.

Sorry, the way you stated it earlier it sounded like you were talking about picking him up FA.

Why do they need to have a 'fire sale' though? If it's after the season then they're pretty likely to have lost at least one of the CC/Sheets types, more likely both. That's $11M off the books for Sheets and another $5M for CC. Just a hunch but I bet that GasCan Gagne ($10M) isn't renewed either.

They'll have the cash to spend -- most of their starters are very young and cheap. The most expensive is Mike Cameron, assuming his $10M option is picked up. Otherwise it's Bill Hall at $6.8M.

Fielder, BTW, will only be entering his first year of arbitration eligibility. He'll top out in the $5M range IMO. They have no need to sell.


I heard last night like everyone else did that watches RS pregame is that Matt Holliday is a guy they like. How do we get him? Same way.....trade.

Holliday I could see easily. I know that Tragedy is going to start whining about how he's a product of Coors Field, but it's not nearly as drastic as he will try to suggest. His lifetime numbers are fugly but look what he's done away from Coors since the start of 2006:



G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2006 77 307 49 86 21 3 12 36 21 66 5 3 .280 .333 .485 .819
2007 76 309 53 93 22 1 11 55 35 68 7 3 .301 .374 .485 .860
2008 35 137 18 43 8 0 5 14 19 21 8 1 .314 .405 .482 .887
Total 188 753 120 222 51 4 28 105 75 155 20 7 .295 .359 .485 .884


The .295/.359/.884 would not be a horrible replacement for our current LF production (.288/.380/.888, nearly identical to 2007). More importantly is the trajectory -- avg, obp, ops are increasing each year.

The rumor is that the Rox want two impact players for Holliday. They don't want prospects (they're crammed already) and they could be longer-term vets so long as they are not obligated beyond the length of Holliday's deal (FA next year, Boras client).

So who would you offer? You already know that I would hate to give him up but Masterson would probably make them stop and look hard at a deal if he were included.


Manny made a serious blunder and his numbers are way down. I firmly believe they aren't keeping him unless its under different $$ terms.
My opinion.

I agree.

Just in case you were curious about how steadfast the Sox will be holding onto their prospects...


In the past few days, according to a source with knowledge of the talks between the Indians and Red Sox, Cleveland did not come down from its request of one package headlined by righthander Michael Bowden, the other featuring the Sox’ best position-player prospects, including Lars Anderson, Jed Lowrie and Josh Reddick.
Source: Boston Globe

lil'papi
07-11-2008, 09:19 AM
Sorry, the way you stated it earlier it sounded like you were talking about picking him up FA.

Why do they need to have a 'fire sale' though? If it's after the season then they're pretty likely to have lost at least one of the CC/Sheets types, more likely both. That's $11M off the books for Sheets and another $5M for CC. Just a hunch but I bet that GasCan Gagne ($10M) isn't renewed either.

They'll have the cash to spend -- most of their starters are very young and cheap. The most expensive is Mike Cameron, assuming his $10M option is picked up. Otherwise it's Bill Hall at $6.8M.

Fielder, BTW, will only be entering his first year of arbitration eligibility. He'll top out in the $5M range IMO. They have no need to sell.



Holliday I could see easily. I know that Tragedy is going to start whining about how he's a product of Coors Field, but it's not nearly as drastic as he will try to suggest. His lifetime numbers are fugly but look what he's done away from Coors since the start of 2006:



G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2006 77 307 49 86 21 3 12 36 21 66 5 3 .280 .333 .485 .819
2007 76 309 53 93 22 1 11 55 35 68 7 3 .301 .374 .485 .860
2008 35 137 18 43 8 0 5 14 19 21 8 1 .314 .405 .482 .887
Total 188 753 120 222 51 4 28 105 75 155 20 7 .295 .359 .485 .884


The .295/.359/.884 would not be a horrible replacement for our current LF production (.288/.380/.888, nearly identical to 2007). More importantly is the trajectory -- avg, obp, ops are increasing each year.

The rumor is that the Rox want two impact players for Holliday. They don't want prospects (they're crammed already) and they could be longer-term vets so long as they are not obligated beyond the length of Holliday's deal (FA next year, Boras client).

So who would you offer? You already know that I would hate to give him up but Masterson would probably make them stop and look hard at a deal if he were included.



I agree.

Just in case you were curious about how steadfast the Sox will be holding onto their prospects...


Source: Boston Globe


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=mil

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7978102/2008-MLB-team-payrolls

....or is it 81mil?

Now check income....sorry 05' was the latest I found.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/results.jhtml?passListId=33&passYear=2005&passListType=Misc&searchParameter1=unset&searchParameter2=unset&resultsStart=1&resultsHowMany=30&resultsSortProperties=-numberfield2%2C%2Bnumberfield1&resultsSortCategoryName=Current+Value&category1=category&category2=category&passKeyword=

Maybe not a fire sale......but a serious markdown blowout. :D They don't have the income to carry it forward. Not sure who they let go Fielders name has come up. Not sure on all their contracts but know they have decisions to make if they want to keep anyone.

I'm sure they won't want to lose CC or Sheets ....or both at once. I believe they clear space for them or one of them.

Fielder must be due for a hefty raise. One of those Youk deals you have worked out already. ;):eyebrow:

lil'papi
07-11-2008, 09:28 AM
Rox rumor mil now? Geez, how can we fantasize about getting guys if they start rumors.

No team has enough pitching , none, nadda, no how. So my theory goes like this screw the Rox rumors and send them Bowden package or a Masterson package. Trust me the rumors go away FAST.

We have loads of other options for packages too. Not sure what they need. We have a few guys ML ready. Coco? Lugo:D, Cora, manny?

Hey RS Rumor has it they will accept Manny. :D

redsox96
07-11-2008, 12:04 PM
The sox really need a SS (everyone knows Julio Lugo f:censored:g sucks) but who would they get. Not furcal (hes on the 60 day dl) so i dont know who we would get

The sox could use a MRP cus lopez is a one and out. Can u say wasted space?

_____________________
:guns: :dance:

redsox96
07-11-2008, 12:11 PM
Dustin Moseley Angles
Damaso Marte Pirates
Huston Street A's (mb they could make him a mrp)

redsox96
07-11-2008, 12:14 PM
Orlando Cabera White Sox he could come back to Boston

SHONIE
07-11-2008, 12:27 PM
Depends a little on Papi

SHONIE
07-11-2008, 12:27 PM
*a lot

y2shoes
07-11-2008, 01:01 PM
Not gonna happen I would rather keep Lugo and get a decent bullpen guy who can save some games to keep PAPS fresh.

captaintek33
07-11-2008, 02:00 PM
Lugo is not going anywhere. Wishing it is not going to make it happen....He will be the SS in the last game of the season (whether it is in the World Series or sooner...) He will probably be the starting SS next year, too! That doesn't mean that I want him to be...It just means that I understand that is how it will be, and what I want is irrelevant.....


Realistically, look for the Sox to go hard after another set up type reliever (can you say Eric Gagne :speechless: ), and possibly another big bat (depending on how they feel about Ortiz' health)...

That's about it. There really aren't any huge holes to fill...

Tragedy
07-11-2008, 03:22 PM
Orlando Cabera White Sox he could come back to Boston
I understand we all want Lugo out of here, but if there is anyone else getting regular playing time at SS this year, it's going to be Lowrie.

FriarFanatic
07-11-2008, 07:25 PM
what about would you guys trade for khalil greene? maybe in a package with something else?

scottyc04901
07-11-2008, 08:44 PM
I heard the Sox are interested in Oswalt from Houston

RedSoxRok34
07-11-2008, 09:05 PM
I heard the Sox are interested in Oswalt from Houston

where did you hear that, and what kind of deal would it be? i have to assume buchholz would be involved.

scottyc04901
07-11-2008, 09:20 PM
where did you hear that, and what kind of deal would it be? i have to assume buchholz would be involved.

I read the story yesterday but I can't find it again. Yeah they had it as either Buchholz or Masterson as part of the deal

celticfan
07-11-2008, 11:08 PM
I could live with Fuentes

laxtonto
07-12-2008, 09:33 AM
Oswalt left his last start with a strained oblique after the 1st inning, has no trade protection and opt out if he gets moved...

Not going to happen

ThreeIfBaerga
07-12-2008, 11:35 AM
Oswalt left his last start with a strained oblique after the 1st inning, has no trade protection and opt out if he gets moved...

Not going to happen



Injury aside, I'm willing to bet Oswalt would waive his NTC for a chance to win a ring.

bballplayer8432
07-12-2008, 11:54 AM
We would have to give up too much for oswalt who isnt even having a great year. Mastersons coming into the bullpen and i think that will be a huge boost for us. I think they should maybe ship coco and someone else out to colorado for fuentes if we need it especially now that moss is up for good... i think

FriarFanatic
07-12-2008, 12:56 PM
would there be any interest in khalil greene?

Tragedy
07-12-2008, 05:03 PM
I read the story yesterday but I can't find it again. Yeah they had it as either Buchholz or Masterson as part of the deal
:laugh:

You sure this wasn't just a video game? The Sox wouldn't be ignorant enough to trade for a guy who is having a mediocre year (And clearly losing his stuff). Add all of this with the fact that he left in the FIRST inning of his game the other day, and that makes for Oswalt still on the Astros on August 1st.


would there be any interest in khalil greene?
I'd doubt it. Lugo will likely return, and if Lowrie can't claim the job, then they'll probably insert Lugo right back into the lineup.

native_astro
07-14-2008, 04:59 PM
I read the story yesterday but I can't find it again. Yeah they had it as either Buchholz or Masterson as part of the deal

Yeah Houston would want Buchholz as the starting point for a trade. I heard that an Astro scout was at the O's game this past week, but they didn't say who they were scouting. Oswalt still has nasty stuff, but his mechanics this year need work and our pitching coach sucks.


Roy has a no trade clause, but has said in the past that he would waive it to go to the Red Sox, Cards, or Braves. Just an FYI.

Strumpy
07-14-2008, 08:12 PM
What about Freddy Sanchez? I know he's having a awful year, but I see him as an upgrade from Lugo. If the Sox could someone negotiate Lugo's ridiculous contract with Pitt, they have a chance for a SS swap.

ThreeIfBaerga
07-14-2008, 10:55 PM
What about Freddy Sanchez? I know he's having a awful year, but I see him as an upgrade from Lugo. If the Sox could someone negotiate Lugo's ridiculous contract with Pitt, they have a chance for a SS swap.

Sanchez isn't an everyday SS. He doesn't have the defense that Theo obviously covets at the position to play for the Sox.


The more I think about it the more I can envision Matt Holliday playing for the Sox by April of 09. If they decide Papi won't be a force this season, they'll seriously consider making a trade for Holliday, as has been said by the media.

I said this same thing about Tex about a week ago, so I don't know how much stock I can put into this post, but take it for what it's worth I guess.

Tragedy
07-14-2008, 11:27 PM
The more I think about it the more I can envision Matt Holliday playing for the Sox by April of 09. If they decide Papi won't be a force this season, they'll seriously consider making a trade for Holliday, as has been said by the media.
I mean, if it happens, okay. But, if it DOES happen, where does he play for the rest of THIS season? Do they just tell Papi he has to hit the DL for the rest of the year?

Strumpy
07-15-2008, 12:03 AM
I mean, if it happens, okay. But, if it DOES happen, where does he play for the rest of THIS season? Do they just tell Papi he has to hit the DL for the rest of the year?

I have a feeling the Sox aren't convinced that Papi will be back in full force. I think they're preparing as if he's out for the year.
You're right, they might tell Papi he's out for the year just like Foulke's bogus "knee injury" a few years ago.

lil'papi
07-15-2008, 09:46 AM
They are just exploring opportunities nothing more or less. It is the trading deadline that's coming up fast. Why wouldn't you.
Because teams inquire or we inquire doesn't make it so.

One thing is for sure they would like leverage with Manny. Getting Holliday would certainly give them a nice insurance policy. Why not move ellsbury into a reserve role.
Manny LF
Holliday RF
Drew CF

Plenty of off days for Ellsbury to play. Move Coco.....and whomever for a BP arm.

I get this feeling they are going to not pick up Manny's options at least in the beginning they will offer him a 3/42-45 deal. This does two things it gets the fans off the FO back for not taking the option also we get a replacement bat a little cheaper, younger. They can finally say bye to manny being manny. His age also plays into it.

Tex makes little sense. Holliday makes some sense.

bosox3431
07-15-2008, 12:47 PM
They are just exploring opportunities nothing more or less. It is the trading deadline that's coming up fast. Why wouldn't you.
Because teams inquire or we inquire doesn't make it so.

One thing is for sure they would like leverage with Manny. Getting Holliday would certainly give them a nice insurance policy. Why not move ellsbury into a reserve role.
Manny LF
Holliday RF
Drew CF

Plenty of off days for Ellsbury to play. Move Coco.....and whomever for a BP arm.

I get this feeling they are going to not pick up Manny's options at least in the beginning they will offer him a 3/42-45 deal. This does two things it gets the fans off the FO back for not taking the option also we get a replacement bat a little cheaper, younger. They can finally say bye to manny being manny. His age also plays into it.

Tex makes little sense. Holliday makes some sense.

Holliday wont be **** outside of corrs. Is career OPS at home, 1.086, his career OPS on the road, .790. No thanks on Holliday, especially since what he would cost.

Tragedy
07-15-2008, 02:38 PM
Holliday wont be **** outside of corrs. Is career OPS at home, 1.086, his career OPS on the road, .790. No thanks on Holliday, especially since what he would cost.
But his OPS last year was .860. It's getting better. Remember, most players DO hit better at home than on the road to begin with, so it's not out of this world that he's not as good on the road as home.

I think Coors does certainly help him, and if he went to a team like the Yankees, he'd be awful in that park. But Fenway? The park is made for a swing like his. I think he could still be a VERY good offensive player on this team. 30 + HR's and a .300 BA is absolutely possibly in Fenway.

khsox2000
07-15-2008, 06:43 PM
So i was looking and what do you guys think about a guy like Kyle McClellan of the cardinals to sure up the bullpen. He's got 20 holds for those who like that stat and a 2.94 era with 41 strikeouts. Plus, he's only 24 and very cheap. As well, the cardinals have a pretty good catching prospect in Bryan Anderson. The 22 year old looks like a consistent .300 hitter with minimal pop and who, under Tek could really improve his game calling. Since Yadier Molina is only 26 and just signed to a long term contract, he's essentially being groomed as trade bait. I could see this package as something the sox might be willing to give up a Bowden to get or more like a Reddick and Place.

lil'papi
07-16-2008, 09:36 AM
Holliday wont be **** outside of corrs. Is career OPS at home, 1.086, his career OPS on the road, .790. No thanks on Holliday, especially since what he would cost.


Comfort zone might be coors field , ala Fenway for Lowell and a few others. He would be just fine there.

Holliday is 6'4" 230lbs he can hit balls out of anywhere. Fenway would be a nice place for him. His HR's might dip slightly but his avg and obp will probably get better. The wall can be a great thing ask Lowell.....

Manny isn't getting better.

Holliday might cost us something , yes. He is signed iirc for two years. Not like Tex where it is a rental.

Ewagner
07-16-2008, 10:57 AM
i think there is a strong possiblity of holliday coming to the sox. with the rockies problems at SS, 2B, and helton getting older and breaking down i think it is possible we may send lugo there to get him. now this is just a thought and blast away at will. lugo, youklis, and top pitching prospect for helton and holliday. thought process behind this. lars anderson is in the minors and helton can hold the spot for him until he is ready. we get rid of lugos awful play. i'm not a fan of getting rid of youk because i love the guy but i think that is the only way it gets done. i still believe youk is the new greenwell. very under appreciated. we could also give up anderson instead of youk but i think youk will move to third once anderson is ready and lowell's contract expires.

ZHawk1123
07-16-2008, 11:14 AM
i think there is a strong possiblity of holliday coming to the sox. with the rockies problems at SS, 2B, and helton getting older and breaking down i think it is possible we may send lugo there to get him. now this is just a thought and blast away at will. lugo, youklis, and top pitching prospect for helton and holliday. thought process behind this. lars anderson is in the minors and helton can hold the spot for him until he is ready. we get rid of lugos awful play. i'm not a fan of getting rid of youk because i love the guy but i think that is the only way it gets done. i still believe youk is the new greenwell. very under appreciated. we could also give up anderson instead of youk but i think youk will move to third once anderson is ready and lowell's contract expires.

No chance we send them a SS... Tulo is coming back soon... Remember him?

Sending Anderson I could definitely see... Lars, Hansen, someone else maybe...

Can't see Helton coming here in any trade either...

evd81
07-16-2008, 11:46 AM
Epstein said yesterday that the Sox aren't interested in Teixeira:

http://www.hardballreport.com/content/view/1319/67/

Which is a good thing, considering that they'd have to give up Youklis

ZHawk1123
07-16-2008, 12:05 PM
Epstein said yesterday that the Sox aren't interested in Teixeira:

http://www.hardballreport.com/content/view/1319/67/

Which is a good thing, considering that they'd have to give up Youklis

Theo saying that means absolutely nothing... Of course he is gonna deny that... Especially with Youk involved...

That just GM ethics...

KingPapelbon
07-16-2008, 12:43 PM
I don't often throw out bullsh*t scenarios, and wild trade "rumors", but I just have a gut feeling that the Sox will pull the trigger on a Blockbuster, and acquire Matt Holliday and Brian Fuentes at the deadline. Now, hear me out..

1) We KNOW that Colorado is ready and willing. They won't re-sign him.

2) There is no love affair between Theo Epstein, and ManRam ~ That's not to say that Theo actually has anything against Manny, as I am sure he doesn't, but Theo has shown in the past that he plans full seasons in advance. If Holliday is acquired, Manny Ramirez walks away at the end of the season, and everybody is happy. ManRam subsequently goes directly into Pinstripes and the rivalry is single handedly renewed in 2009. How fun.

3) Look at the ridiculous depth that the Red Sox, and Theo & Co.'s "player development machine" has built up. It's easy to fall in love with prospects.. They're sexy, they're great.. But to a large degree we all as Red Sox honks over-value our guys.

The entire PURPOSE of building the type of farm system that Theo has built is to be able to selectively, and intelligently set yourself up with a SUPERSTAR player, that is young, and you can make one of your cornerstone guys. That's the entire goal, not having 2/3/4 capable bodies at each position. Depth is nice, All-Star players are nicer.

My prediction, Today, July 16th (We can come back to this):

Red Sox acquire:
Matt Holliday, OF
Brian Fuentes, RP

Rockies acquire:
Coco Crisp, OF
Josh Reddick, OF (A-Ball) OR Brandon Moss, OF
Michael Bowden, SP (AA)
Craig Hansen, RP

Why this makes sense:

Colorado, even though they had their glory year last year, is well aware that they need to re-tool. Michael Bowden gives them a true #1/#2 to put in the rotation with Francis, Reynolds, and such moving forward.

Craig Hansen is attractive for the ever popular "change of scenery" reason, and Colorado is in need of a guy to throw into the closer's mix.

I think Colorado would actually opt for one of our high-ceiling, year or two away outfielders, such are Josh Reddick, Bubba Bell, or Ryan Kalish - Rather than Moss, but I bet Theo offers Moss.

Lastly - Crisp makes sense, as he is a natural LF, can replace Holliday for a team not really gunning for a Pennant, and is under their control through 2009 at a very affordable $5M.

I think the Sox would then employ an OF rotation, using Holliday in CF and LF, with Ellsbury getting the occasional day off, and ManRam playing some DH down the stretch as David Ortiz will NOT be 100% until at least the playoffs.

It works, it makes sense, and IMO it'll happen.

ccspence8
07-16-2008, 12:56 PM
If a trade is going to happen with the Sox the Holiday deal would be the one to be made. However, I think that the Rockies would want Lowrie to be a part of the deal instead of Moss.

RSF1977
07-16-2008, 01:09 PM
ya gotta think if there were a deal here it would include Masterson for his GBR.

I don't see Lowrie as a need for The Rox considering they are all set with
Tulo , Barmes and I forget their other MIfr. Who knows though.

I Could see them moving
Masterson
Moss
Hansen
and a Spect

Its gonna be interesting to see what happens here.
As said earlier I don't mind the splits. Holliday WILL hit BOMBS at Fenway

Ewagner
07-16-2008, 01:25 PM
No chance we send them a SS... Tulo is coming back soon... Remember him?

Sending Anderson I could definitely see... Lars, Hansen, someone else maybe...

Can't see Helton coming here in any trade either...

like i said this is just a bs senerio but let me help explain a few things on this. yes they have tulo but if you looked at his stats at the beginning of the year before he got hurt they weren't to good. to be honest lugo has 2B experience and might be better served on that side anyways. the rockies have a revolving door at 2B right now with barmes and baker. baker is still young and probable better served as a back up right now. the only reason i threw in helton was because of his contract and age and figured if the rockies were going to take on lugos contract we would have to take on one there contracts. the sox have always been in love with helton. i also don't know to much about the rockies farm system to know if there is a trade possibility here.

feuntes is not coming to the red sox. no way no how. he made it publicly known that when his contract comes up he will sign with whoever will allow him to close. that will not happen in boston. so that would make him a rental.other teams in need of a closer that are still in the race will probable make a larger bid for him. he will not be a throw in on trade. i would expect the rays to make a huge push for him thinking they can sign him to be there closer for the next few years.

someone said something about hansen going to the rockies to be a closer. they have three closers in waiting on that team already, corpas, buchholz, and some other guy in the minors whose name slips away from me.

astrosmaniac
07-16-2008, 02:31 PM
OK i know you guys have had interest in Oswalt in the Past, and even though he's hasnt had a dominant year, hes getting better and would be ur #2 starter, which would give u a great 1-2-3 punch of Beckett-Oswalt-Dice-K. Even with his bad year, i would still say he's a top 1- pitcher in the league. What would you be willing to give?

I can tell you now, the 'stros would be looking for a couple top level guys. You'd pry need to give up lester or buckholtz (or possibly both) along with a good AA or AAA prospect and a good posiion player prospect (probably like could be a starter next year if needed at 3B, CF, or 2B)

ThreeIfBaerga
07-16-2008, 02:42 PM
I'd rather send any OF prospect in the system right now over Reddick. Kid is going to be a top teir power hitter. He's got amazing contact skills and can really square up and hit the ball hard. He's still skinny as hell and is already a legitimate power hitter. Once he fills out he could be a cornerstone RF.

RSF1977
07-16-2008, 02:44 PM
OK i know you guys have had interest in Oswalt in the Past, and even though he's hasnt had a dominant year, hes getting better and would be ur #2 starter, which would give u a great 1-2-3 punch of Beckett-Oswalt-Dice-K. Even with his bad year, i would still say he's a top 1- pitcher in the league. What would you be willing to give?

I can tell you now, the 'stros would be looking for a couple top level guys. You'd pry need to give up lester or buckholtz (or possibly both) along with a good AA or AAA prospect and a good posiion player prospect (probably like could be a starter next year if needed at 3B, CF, or 2B)

At this point I think Oswalt is a name of the past for the Sox.
If the Sox Didn't send Lester the other way for Santana He is going NOWHERE
now.
Lester is permanently fixed in the rotation for years to come now.
If Buchhz goes anywhere it better be for a monster position player.

Suprman848
07-16-2008, 02:51 PM
In respect to the Holliday deal: I am all for it. I love Manny, love what he has done and I think he is one of the best hitters ever. He is getting older and his 20 million dollar option is not worth it for his increasing age and defensive skills outside of Fenway (plays the wall like no other). To get Holliday who is only 28 and a career 300+ hitter with power would be great. The only problem I have is with pulling this deal within the next two weeks is what does it to do Manny's fragile state of mind. If it goes down Manny knows that he is through in Boston with no hope of his options being picked up. His numbers may go down and cause club house friction. Still worth is for the rest of the year? If it cant get done as a sign and trade in the off-season then I am a little hesistant

Tragedy
07-16-2008, 03:01 PM
OK i know you guys have had interest in Oswalt in the Past, and even though he's hasnt had a dominant year, hes getting better and would be ur #2 starter, which would give u a great 1-2-3 punch of Beckett-Oswalt-Dice-K. Even with his bad year, i would still say he's a top 1- pitcher in the league. What would you be willing to give?

I can tell you now, the 'stros would be looking for a couple top level guys. You'd pry need to give up lester or buckholtz (or possibly both) along with a good AA or AAA prospect and a good posiion player prospect (probably like could be a starter next year if needed at 3B, CF, or 2B)
:laugh:

Thank you for giving me my big laugh of the day. So the Red Sox are going to trade a 24 year old lefty who is having a fantastic season for Roy Oswalt, his worn out shoulder, and his 92 ERA+?

Sounds like a steal!

:speechless:

homie564
07-16-2008, 03:09 PM
haha :D... the sox wont do too much... the biggest the may do is land fuentes or trade coco, lugo and buccholz to the mariners like theyve wanted and land lopez and putz (this is a real umor.. heard it on the radio a week or so ago)

ThreeIfBaerga
07-16-2008, 03:11 PM
If there was anyone on this Red Sox team who had a fragile state of mind it would not be Manny Ramirez. Manny is perfectly comfortable inside his own body being Manny Ramirez.

ccspence8
07-16-2008, 03:42 PM
haha :D... the sox wont do too much... the biggest the may do is land fuentes or trade coco, lugo and buccholz to the mariners like theyve wanted and land lopez and putz (this is a real umor.. heard it on the radio a week or so ago)

Your on drugs. First of all why would we want Jose Lopez when he have Pedroia.
Second of all why would we want Putz whose been on the DL twice this year when we have Papelbon. Third we won't do that deal.


The only deal that makes sense is the deal to the Rockies for Holliday and Fuentes.

quiksilver2491
07-16-2008, 03:56 PM
Avoid Matt Holliday at all costs!!! His monster numbers aren't so great away from Coors, unless they would lower their asking price he isn't worth it.

ThreeIfBaerga
07-16-2008, 06:53 PM
Avoid Matt Holliday at all costs!!! His monster numbers aren't so great away from Coors, unless they would lower their asking price he isn't worth it.

As has been mentioned many many times already, EVERYONE'S numbers are better at home than they are on the road. It's not uncommon. Coors isn't nearly the bandbox it used to be.

The Intimidator
07-16-2008, 07:46 PM
i would have no problem bringing in holliday, but where would we put him? he's a left fielder, and manny plays left once papi comes back, youkilis plays first so ortiz can't move there, plus he has bad knees so we would lose something defensively if we did that. lowell plays third, so we couldn't move youkilis there even if we wanted ortiz to play first. i wouldn't stick holliday in right field in fenway either, both because drew is hitting and playing so well there, and because right field at fenway is no picnic. holliday shouldn't be playing center either. now, i guess you could give one guy a day off each game, but that gives tito more to think about than just how much chew he wants to stuff in his lower lip throughout the game. (just kidding, we all know he's the best manager in the game.) the next question is what would you be willing to give up for a guy who is signed only until the end of the 2009 season? colorado's asking price is obviously going to be high for a guy who finished second in the mvp voting last year, and who is hitting .337 this year. i don't know, its making my head spin just thinking about it...

bagwell368
07-16-2008, 09:39 PM
As has been mentioned many many times already, EVERYONE'S numbers are better at home than they are on the road. It's not uncommon. Coors isn't nearly the bandbox it used to be.

Holliday Home: .364 .427 .659 130 OPS+
Holliday Away: .277 .341 .449 070 OPS+

You don't seriously mean to imply this is anything like a normal split?


Frank Robinson Home: .306 .403 .573 110 OPS+
Frank Robinson Away: .283 .376 .504 090 OPS+

Manny was almost even. Only Colorado hitters of the ones I checked (Helton, Walker, etc.) had anything like these bizarre stats..

Remember Ellis Burks, Dante Bichette? both did better in Colorado then Boston, a lot better.

NO, unless it's cheap.

The Intimidator
07-16-2008, 10:03 PM
well, it won't be cheap, especially because holliday is signed beyond this year. colorado has always had interest in ellsbury, and one can only assume that they have their eye on at least two of our top pitching prospects. bowden, who was recently promoted to pawtucket, is expected to be activated from the disabled list within the next day or two, and will probably be a part of any discussion regarding holliday. buchholz and masterson are two other pitchers the rockies apparently have their eye on, but that's not surprising. it will be interesting to see what theo and the braintrust decides to do in the final two weeks before the deadline.

americanoutlaw
07-17-2008, 02:26 PM
The two players I like see Red Sox try to get is pitcher Justin Duchscherer of the Athletics and catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia of the Rangers or Bryan Anderson of the Cards. Justin Duchscherer would be someonr to terry's liking and will be usful as a rp or sp.

If the sox got one of the two catcher sould sox keep cash or let him go

Ewagner
07-17-2008, 04:13 PM
people need to get off the salty bandwagon. i believe someone here posted the perfect reason. the braves don't give up players unless it is for a reason. if we can get teagarden from the rangers organization that will be our best option.

i can see the red sox including coco in any trade for holliday. he would be an excellent option for the rockies. bowden and probable another prospect would also be included. i don't very much that feutes would be in that discussion as he would cost a lot more in prospects for a rental player.

yaowowrocket11
07-17-2008, 04:48 PM
people need to get off the salty bandwagon. i believe someone here posted the perfect reason. the braves don't give up players unless it is for a reason. if we can get teagarden from the rangers organization that will be our best option.

i can see the red sox including coco in any trade for holliday. he would be an excellent option for the rockies. bowden and probable another prospect would also be included. i don't very much that feutes would be in that discussion as he would cost a lot more in prospects for a rental player.

I agree 100% about the Salty statement, and I really do like Teagarden.

Holliday will be impossible to get. Not sure if they would like Coco, Bowden and other prospects.

Tragedy
07-17-2008, 04:54 PM
The two players I like see Red Sox try to get is pitcher Justin Duchscherer of the Athletics and catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia of the Rangers or Bryan Anderson of the Cards. Justin Duchscherer would be someonr to terry's liking and will be usful as a rp or sp.

If the sox got one of the two catcher sould sox keep cash or let him go
Duchscherer's value, right now, is at an all time high. I believe he's pitching far beyond what his true value is. The A's will likely trade high on him, and it's not going to be the best deal for whatever team that receives him.

The Intimidator
07-17-2008, 05:27 PM
yeah i would avoid duchscherer, because he is pitching much much better than he has in the past. he has always been a decent reliever, but right now he is pitching like an ace, which he isn't. the a's would demand top prospects for him, whereas if you had traded for him last year, he would have been much cheaper.

bagwell368
07-18-2008, 08:24 AM
We can have Salty for Lester, Bucholtz, and Masterson - 'nuff said

Ewagner
07-18-2008, 09:14 AM
We can have Salty for Lester, Bucholtz, and Masterson - 'nuff said

we could have 80% of the catchers in baseball for that package. NO SALTY!

lil'papi
07-18-2008, 09:49 AM
Holliday Home: .364 .427 .659 130 OPS+
Holliday Away: .277 .341 .449 070 OPS+

You don't seriously mean to imply this is anything like a normal split?


Frank Robinson Home: .306 .403 .573 110 OPS+
Frank Robinson Away: .283 .376 .504 090 OPS+

Manny was almost even. Only Colorado hitters of the ones I checked (Helton, Walker, etc.) had anything like these bizarre stats..

Remember Ellis Burks, Dante Bichette? both did better in Colorado then Boston, a lot better.

NO, unless it's cheap.

Didn't they add a moisture machine to deaden the balls there? I was under the impression the numbers dipped after they started using it. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-10-26-3457255919_x.htm

Go look at Lowells splits....2007 over a full season and the last three years. He loves fenway.



Overall AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Home 292 53 109 15 1 14 73 24 2 34 3 0 .373 .418 .575 .993
Away 297 26 82 22 1 7 47 29 1 37 0 2 .276 .339 .428 .767



Overall AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

Home 859 127 252 54 2 28 152 88 4 99 6 2 .293 .356 .459 .815

Away 803 87 220 66 2 21 106 58 5 91 3 2 .274 .323 .440 .763

Guys get comfortable at home. I'd rather have a young Holliday than an old Manny. I'm not sure what deal Colorado needs to make it happen. I'd HATE to lose Bowden in my mind he might be the better of the three pitchers, Buchholz, Masterson and him.
He is younger. He has GREAT control.

I will say if they swing a deal for Holliday , Manny will end up in the looney bin. :p

The Intimidator
07-18-2008, 02:34 PM
I wouldn't be in favor of trading Bowden either, but I have a feeling that he's gonna make the big leagues on another team...

RedSoxRok34
07-18-2008, 03:59 PM
bowden is an amazing prospect, but i wouldn't be averse to trading him. the reason is simple: we have enough SPs. next season, we will likely have beckett, dice-k, lester, buchholz, and masterson all set to go, and wake will likely be back as well, and we have other good pitching prospects. while i'd hate to lose him, i wouldn't be against trading him in the right deal.

i don't have a problem with holliday's ability to hit away from coors, i have a problem with him finding a position. even if we decline manny's options, we still have him this year, and that's 5 starting outfielders (unless crisp gets dealt, entirely likely). still, 4. the only viable solution would probably be to put drew in CF and holliday in RF, with ellsbury being the best 4th OFer in the league, which would really suck for him.

if you can find a spot to play holliday, i would be all too happy to include bowden in a deal for him, probably with coco and at least one other good prospect. but the way i see it, there's just nowhere to put him

The Intimidator
07-18-2008, 09:15 PM
bowden is an amazing prospect, but i wouldn't be averse to trading him. the reason is simple: we have enough SPs. next season, we will likely have beckett, dice-k, lester, buchholz, and masterson all set to go, and wake will likely be back as well, and we have other good pitching prospects. while i'd hate to lose him, i wouldn't be against trading him in the right deal.

i don't have a problem with holliday's ability to hit away from coors, i have a problem with him finding a position. even if we decline manny's options, we still have him this year, and that's 5 starting outfielders (unless crisp gets dealt, entirely likely). still, 4. the only viable solution would probably be to put drew in CF and holliday in RF, with ellsbury being the best 4th OFer in the league, which would really suck for him.

if you can find a spot to play holliday, i would be all too happy to include bowden in a deal for him, probably with coco and at least one other good prospect. but the way i see it, there's just nowhere to put him

Just remember, you can never have too much good young pitching...

RedSoxtober
07-18-2008, 09:42 PM
Holliday Home: .364 .427 .659 130 OPS+
Holliday Away: .277 .341 .449 070 OPS+

You don't seriously mean to imply this is anything like a normal split?


Not sure if you saw my comments on this earlier in the thread (please check). Holliday's home/road splits are weighed down by crappy years the first two seasons. He's been on a significant incline the last two and a half seasons (as you'd expect with him approaching 28 over that time). The split is there, but is less pronounced. Moreover, his road numbers are very nice numbers. It's also difficult to determine the net effect of trading Fenway for Coors but he may not simply drop dead if he collected checks from Yawkey way.

The Intimidator
07-18-2008, 10:18 PM
Not sure if you saw my comments on this earlier in the thread (please check). Holliday's home/road splits are weighed down by crappy years the first two seasons. He's been on a significant incline the last two and a half seasons (as you'd expect with him approaching 28 over that time). The split is there, but is less pronounced. Moreover, his road numbers are very nice numbers. It's also difficult to determine the net effect of trading Fenway for Coors but he may not simply drop dead if he collected checks from Yawkey way.

so all of that being said, do you think that the front office is seriously considering trading for him? because the price will obviously be high.

Celts22
07-18-2008, 10:27 PM
so all of that being said, do you think that the front office is seriously considering trading for him? because the price will obviously be high.

By the sounds of the Phillies/Rockies rumor (Shane Victorino, J.A. Happ (#9 overall prospect), Carlos Carrasco (#1), & Lou Marson (#27) for Holliday & Fuentes) it doesnt seem like it would be that difficult to kill 2 birds with one stone with the depth of our farm. IMO a comparable deal from the Sox could look like Bowden/Masterson, Kalish/Reddick/Place, Hunter Jones & Kottaras/Brown/Wagner.That would be something to seriously consider.

WilymoPena
07-18-2008, 10:31 PM
By the sounds of the Phillies/Rockies rumor (Shane Victorino, J.A. Happ (#9 overall prospect), Carlos Carrasco (#1), & Lou Marson (#27) for Holliday & Fuentes) it doesnt seem like it would be that difficult to kill 2 birds with one stone with the depth of our farm. IMO a comparable deal from the Sox could look like Bowden/Masterson, Kalish/Reddick/Place, Hunter Jones & Kottaras/Brown/Wagner.That would be something to seriously consider.

That is more than enough to get that deal done I would think. The Rockies aren't exactly dealing from a position of strength here.