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View Full Version : Moon VS Lebron don't laugh, I'm serious.



B2B
07-07-2008, 02:25 PM
James - shooting |FG%-48.4|3PT%-31.5|FT%-71.2|
Moon - shooting |FG%-48.5|3PT%-32.8|FT%-74.1|

Moon & James percentages r similar in this category.

James attempts |FG%-21.9|3PT%-4.8|FT%-10.3|
James made |FG%-10.6|3PT%-1.5|FT%-7.3|

Moon attempts |FG%-7.4|3PT%-1.6|FT%-1.1|
Moon made |FG%-3.6|3PT%-0.5|FT%-0.8|

James attempts |14.5 more FG's|3.3 more 3PT's|3 more FT's|

Using Moon's percentages, this is the calculation if Moon was to attempt the same amount of shots as James

14.5 * 48.5 / 100 * 2 = 14.1 points rounding up

3.3 * 32.8 / 100 *3 = 3.2 points rounding down

3 * 74.1 / 100 *1 = 2.2 points rounding down

Total 19.5 points if Moon was to attempt the same amount of shots as James

With James percentages actually less than Moon's I don't know how moon ended up with less points :shrug:

James PPG = 30
Moons PPG if he attempts the same amount of shots as James maintaining his percentages = 28

What these pct's suggest is that Moons offence is on par with James if he was to take the same amount of shot attempts.

James - defensively |STL-1.8|RPG O-1.8/D-6.1 TOT-7.9|BLKS-1.1|
Moon - defensively |STL-1.0|RPG O-1.2/D-5.0 TOT-6.2|BLKS-1.4|

Keep in mind Moon plays 12.6 less mins. These #'s suggest Moon is on par or better defensively than James.

The only category that James beat Moon was in assists.

James -7.2
Moon -1.2

It's a decisive victory for James but I gotta give props to Moon.

While you cannot replace James strength & presence these #'s say that Moon & James r very similar in many ways and this is the reason why you cannot base arguments on stats because anyone with eyes knows lebron is better but the stats say otherwise.

If stats do tell the tape then we've got a gem on our hands in Moon. :D or that James is overrated.

lovingTO
07-07-2008, 02:29 PM
no..just no.

B2B
07-07-2008, 02:31 PM
no..just no.

No to what?.

lovingTO
07-07-2008, 02:34 PM
This whole comparison. Yes those both shot 48%..and close to the same from the 3 pt line..but these players dont belong in the same breath.

coolmo
07-07-2008, 02:35 PM
can't compare with just the numbers,

most of times, james get double teams on defense, better defender guard james, he creates his own shot while moon get a open shot created by Calderon, less pressure on defense, sometimes opponent just let moon shot 3 or long 2s

so.. can't really compare those two... in my opinion..

B2B
07-07-2008, 02:36 PM
This whole comparison. Yes those both shot 48%..and close to the same from the 3 pt line..but these players dont belong in the same breath.

Did you not read my entire post?.

While you cannot replace James strength & presence these #'s say that Moon & James r very similar in many ways and this is the reason why you cannot base arguments on stats because anyone with eyes knows lebron is better but the stats say otherwise.

B2B
07-07-2008, 02:39 PM
can't compare with just the numbers,

most of times, james get double teams on defense, better defender guard james, he creates his own shot while moon get a open shot created by Calderon, less pressure on defense, sometimes opponent just let moon shot 3 or long 2s

so.. can't really compare those two... in my opinion..

I'm showing how numbers lie. If they didn't we would have a James of our own in Moon.

mariotubes
07-07-2008, 02:39 PM
not too sure why you wasted your time gettin all these stats lol, moon isnt, and never will be, anywhere near lebrons status

B2B
07-07-2008, 02:47 PM
not too sure why you wasted your time gettin all these stats lol, moon isnt, and never will be, anywhere near lebrons status

In another thread a poster brought up Moon's shooting percentages to prove to me that he's equal to Bosh shooting wise therefore playing Bosh at his position would not be an upgrade. This is to show that the #'s lie.

Moon is not equal to Bosh

Moon is not equal to James

but the #'s say otherwise.

I got the stats to prove that point. If proving a point is wasting you're time, isn't that what you're doing by responding to my post?.

pebloemer
07-07-2008, 02:50 PM
I'm showing how numbers lie. If they didn't we would have a James of our own in Moon.

I would say that one big factor in how numbers lie is in the context of the game and the difficulties of the shots. Moon shoots wide open jump shots or alley oops, James shoots over two defenders, or spins through many defenders on route to the hoop. Moon has shots created for him, LeBron creates shots.

I think that would be the biggest factor that numbers can't cover, that and defense.

Dragan
07-07-2008, 02:56 PM
Lol.

brebre82
07-07-2008, 02:57 PM
James - shooting |FG%-48.4|3PT%-31.5|FT%-71.2|
Moon - shooting |FG%-48.5|3PT%-32.8|FT%-74.1|

Moon & James percentages r similar in this category.

James attempts |FG%-21.9|3PT%-4.8|FT%-10.3|
James made |FG%-10.6|3PT%-1.5|FT%-7.3|

Moon attempts |FG%-7.4|3PT%-1.6|FT%-1.1|
Moon made |FG%-3.6|3PT%-0.5|FT%-0.8|

James attempts |14.5 more FG's|3.3 more 3PT's|3 more FT's|

Using Moon's percentages, this is the calculation if Moon was to attempt the same amount of shots as James

14.5 * 48.5 / 100 * 2 = 14.1 points rounding up

3.3 * 32.8 / 100 *3 = 3.2 points rounding down

3 * 74.1 / 100 *1 = 2.2 points rounding down

Total 19.5 points if Moon was to attempt the same amount of shots as James

With James percentages actually less than Moon's I don't know how moon ended up with less points :shrug:

James PPG = 30
Moons PPG if he attempts the same amount of shots as James maintaining his percentages = 28

What these pct's suggest is that Moons offence is on par with James if he was to take the same amount of shot attempts.

James - defensively |STL-1.8|RPG O-1.8/D-6.1 TOT-7.9|BLKS-1.1|
Moon - defensively |STL-1.0|RPG O-1.2/D-5.0 TOT-6.2|BLKS-1.4|

Keep in mind Moon plays 12.6 less mins. These #'s suggest Moon is on par or better defensively than James.

The only category that James beat Moon was in assists.

James -7.2
Moon -1.2

It's a decisive victory for James but I gotta give props to Moon.

While you cannot replace James strength & presence these #'s say that Moon & James r very similar in many ways and this is the reason why you cannot base arguments on stats because anyone with eyes knows lebron is better but the stats say otherwise.

If stats do tell the tape then we've got a gem on our hands in Moon. :D or that James is overrated.



Because LBJ gets to the line at will, and that is his primary weapon. For that reason, he could shoot 35% taking more shots than anyone but still having more points from the FT line.

btw, dumbest post. EVER. IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.

Bob_at_york
07-07-2008, 02:57 PM
In another thread a poster brought up Moon's shooting percentages to prove to me that he's equal to Bosh shooting wise therefore playing Bosh at his position would not be an upgrade. This is to show that the #'s lie.

Moon is not equal to Bosh

Moon is not equal to James

but the #'s say otherwise.

I got the stats to prove that point. If proving a point is wasting you're time, isn't that what you're doing by responding to my post?.

maybe you shouldn't have told us in the thread title NOT to laugh if you were trying to make a joke about stats. Although I was forced to laugh with your typo on the word "laugh".

BoomCasa
07-07-2008, 02:57 PM
haha...crazy son!! and I'm sayin...am i compelled by your nice stat breakdown?...and i'm sayin yes...can james be compared to moon?...and i'm sayin probably not...in the end...i'm sayin that just by lookin at those stats one would think moon was close to james...when in reality we can all agree that it is not the case...sometimes stats can trick people...like calderon's assist numbers...where calderon passes to people who are open at the 3 point line which are made like 40 to 50 percent of the time...and where as steve nash finds people close to the basket for easy lay ups and dunks which are made 70 to 100 percent of the time...

Musical Tempo
07-07-2008, 03:02 PM
James - shooting |FG%-48.4|3PT%-31.5|FT%-71.2|
Moon - shooting |FG%-48.5|3PT%-32.8|FT%-74.1|

Moon & James percentages r similar in this category.

James attempts |FG%-21.9|3PT%-4.8|FT%-10.3|
James made |FG%-10.6|3PT%-1.5|FT%-7.3|

Moon attempts |FG%-7.4|3PT%-1.6|FT%-1.1|
Moon made |FG%-3.6|3PT%-0.5|FT%-0.8|

James attempts |14.5 more FG's|3.3 more 3PT's|3 more FT's|

Using Moon's percentages, this is the calculation if Moon was to attempt the same amount of shots as James

14.5 * 48.5 / 100 * 2 = 14.1 points rounding up

3.3 * 32.8 / 100 *3 = 3.2 points rounding down

3 * 74.1 / 100 *1 = 2.2 points rounding down

Total 19.5 points if Moon was to attempt the same amount of shots as James

With James percentages actually less than Moon's I don't know how moon ended up with less points :shrug:

James PPG = 30
Moons PPG if he attempts the same amount of shots as James maintaining his percentages = 28

What these pct's suggest is that Moons offence is on par with James if he was to take the same amount of shot attempts.

James - defensively |STL-1.8|RPG O-1.8/D-6.1 TOT-7.9|BLKS-1.1|
Moon - defensively |STL-1.0|RPG O-1.2/D-5.0 TOT-6.2|BLKS-1.4|

Keep in mind Moon plays 12.6 less mins. These #'s suggest Moon is on par or better defensively than James.

The only category that James beat Moon was in assists.

James -7.2
Moon -1.2

It's a decisive victory for James but I gotta give props to Moon.

While you cannot replace James strength & presence these #'s say that Moon & James r very similar in many ways and this is the reason why you cannot base arguments on stats because anyone with eyes knows lebron is better but the stats say otherwise.

If stats do tell the tape then we've got a gem on our hands in Moon. :D or that James is overrated.

B2B Can I have whatever your :smoking: . I see what your saying but to the "Moons PPG if he attempts the same amount of shots as James maintaining his percentages = 28" comment Moon wouldnt be able to get of 40% of his shot attempts if the same type of presure defense was put on him night in and out. You cant compare player by stats and statments "if he"...thats like me saying "if Bargnani took 20 more shots a game he would average 25pts and would make him a superstar"...however out of those 20 shots he would hit 10, leaving 10 less shot for the Raptors (i.e. We would lose every game) and defenses would adjust on him and play him harder which would make his precentage suffer even more. As much as I like Moon in reality on any other playoff team he would be a 3rd string if lucky a 2nd string player on teams like Sixers, Atlanta etc. He cant shot, very slack dribbling abililty, and no driving ability with ball. His only consistent asset are his jumping ablility(rebounding and dunking).

B2B
07-07-2008, 03:04 PM
maybe you shouldn't have told us in the thread title NOT to laugh if you were trying to make a joke about stats. Although I was forced to laugh with your typo on the word "laugh".

Why do you think I said not to laugh?.

Not because I know it's a rediculous comparison but I did it to prove a point that stats r a unreliable tool for an argument because they don't tell the full story.

Moon is not a better option than Bosh at the 3 spot.

Dragan
07-07-2008, 03:08 PM
all this proves is that for 90% of the time stats are meaningless. we all know that LBJ is in another world when it comes to talent, but these stats dotn tell us that. still this thread made me laugh. Very funy

B2B
07-07-2008, 03:13 PM
all this proves is that for 90% of the time stats are meaningless. we all know that LBJ is in another world when it comes to talent, but these stats dotn tell us that. still this thread made me laugh. Very funy

That's my point. Glad I hit you're funny bone

B2B
07-07-2008, 03:16 PM
Reason why I posted this:

"Bosh is not really a better shooter than Moon. Moon shot .484 mostly from the perimeter and .328 from 3 while Bosh shot .494 mostly from near the paint and .400 from 3 on only 25 shots (he is a career .309 from 3) so I don't see Bosh being a big upgrade at the perimeter shooting. You say that Moon can't even dribble, I'll say that you put Bosh at the 3 and watch him try to drive against NBA 3's guarding him and you'll be saying the same thing about him."

I disagree my eyes tell me Bosh is better.

Musical Tempo
07-07-2008, 03:17 PM
haha...crazy son!! and I'm sayin...am i compelled by your nice stat breakdown?...and i'm sayin yes...can james be compared to moon?...and i'm sayin probably not...in the end...i'm sayin that just by lookin at those stats one would think moon was close to james...when in reality we can all agree that it is not the case...sometimes stats can trick people...like calderon's assist numbers...where calderon passes to people who are open at the 3 point line which are made like 40 to 50 percent of the time...and where as steve nash finds people close to the basket for easy lay ups and dunks which are made 70 to 100 percent of the time...

What are you trying to say here that Steve Nash and Jose are the same calibur type of PG?

mpickup
07-07-2008, 03:17 PM
You gotta stick to your guns B2B...it's an interesting read! All these people go ripping it as a ridiculous waste of time, but were any of you the same people expanding Bargnani's "per 48 minute" totals in his rookie year to show why he had a better season than B-Roy? ...it's interesting for sure, thanks

B2B
07-07-2008, 03:24 PM
You gotta stick to your guns B2B...it's an interesting read! All these people go ripping it as a ridiculous waste of time, but were any of you the same people expanding Bargnani's "per 48 minute" totals in his rookie year to show why he had a better season than B-Roy? ...it's interesting for sure, thanks

I'm not waivering, thanks.

Silver.
07-07-2008, 03:28 PM
Which one is a franchise player?

Musical Tempo
07-07-2008, 03:29 PM
Why do you think I said not to laugh?.

Not because I know it's a rediculous comparison but I did it to prove a point that stats r a unreliable tool for an argument because they don't tell the full story.

Moon is not a better option than Bosh at the 3 spot.

They only dont tell the full story to individuals who are not watching the players play an actual game. On court we can see the difference a Lebron, and Moon make for their team. Stats just justifies poeples points, and facts about the athlete.

Musical Tempo
07-07-2008, 03:32 PM
Which one is a franchise player?

Even better which one has a 90M Nike endourcements and a Max contract?
and
Which one is making league mininum and a rookie at the age of 27?

Halladay
07-07-2008, 03:32 PM
I agree with everyone else. Moon is clearly better.

B2B
07-07-2008, 03:38 PM
Which one is a franchise player?

That's my point

I told a poster I would like to play Bosh at the three insted of Moon because I know to myself that Bosh is the better player even though it's not his natural position. The poster responded with this statement:

"Bosh is not really a better shooter than Moon. Moon shot .484 mostly from the perimeter and .328 from 3 while Bosh shot .494 mostly from near the paint and .400 from 3 on only 25 shots (he is a career .309 from 3) so I don't see Bosh being a big upgrade at the perimeter shooting. You say that Moon can't even dribble, I'll say that you put Bosh at the 3 and watch him try to drive against NBA 3's guarding him and you'll be saying the same thing about him."

not really a better shooter than Moon - I disagree although stats say Moon shot .484 FG% & Bosh shot .494

so I don't see Bosh being a big upgrade at the perimeter shooting- I do when Moon shoots I cringe.

I'll say that you put Bosh at the 3 and watch him try to drive against NBA 3's guarding him and you'll be saying the same thing about him.- No I know Bosh will have more success driving than Moon.

Bosh>Moon even if it's the 3 spot.

Tom Stone
07-07-2008, 03:40 PM
Everytime down the floor their just giving the ball to lebron to do everything....Jamario is like 3d or 4th or 5th option....It's hard to compare players when they play completly differnt roles.....But i think Jamerio can improve more , he's just getting used to the Nba.

DaoudS
07-07-2008, 03:44 PM
lmao hahahahaha

man, i thought as NY fan i had spaced out thoughts about player potentials - but you have taken it to another level

WaterBoy24
07-07-2008, 03:53 PM
Lol!!!

Bricklayer
07-07-2008, 04:13 PM
According to my calculations...

If Derrick Martin plays 2 minutes a game, and hits one shot and gets 1 assist while he is on the floor, he would average 48 points and 24 assists per game in he played 48 minutes which would make him the best point guard in N.B.A history!

Come on man, get real.

Musical Tempo
07-07-2008, 04:28 PM
According to my calculations...

If Derrick Martin plays 2 minutes a game, and hits one shot and gets 1 assist while he is on the floor, he would average 48 points and 24 assists per game in he played 48 minutes which would make him the best point guard in N.B.A history!

Come on man, get real.

He isnt the best PG already?:eyebrow::eyebrow::speechless:

khanraymond
07-07-2008, 05:15 PM
James - shooting |FG%-48.4|3PT%-31.5|FT%-71.2|
Moon - shooting |FG%-48.5|3PT%-32.8|FT%-74.1|

Moon & James percentages r similar in this category.

James attempts |FG%-21.9|3PT%-4.8|FT%-10.3|
James made |FG%-10.6|3PT%-1.5|FT%-7.3|

Moon attempts |FG%-7.4|3PT%-1.6|FT%-1.1|
Moon made |FG%-3.6|3PT%-0.5|FT%-0.8|

James attempts |14.5 more FG's|3.3 more 3PT's|3 more FT's|

Using Moon's percentages, this is the calculation if Moon was to attempt the same amount of shots as James

14.5 * 48.5 / 100 * 2 = 14.1 points rounding up

3.3 * 32.8 / 100 *3 = 3.2 points rounding down

3 * 74.1 / 100 *1 = 2.2 points rounding down

Total 19.5 points if Moon was to attempt the same amount of shots as James

With James percentages actually less than Moon's I don't know how moon ended up with less points :shrug:

James PPG = 30
Moons PPG if he attempts the same amount of shots as James maintaining his percentages = 28

What these pct's suggest is that Moons offence is on par with James if he was to take the same amount of shot attempts.

James - defensively |STL-1.8|RPG O-1.8/D-6.1 TOT-7.9|BLKS-1.1|
Moon - defensively |STL-1.0|RPG O-1.2/D-5.0 TOT-6.2|BLKS-1.4|

Keep in mind Moon plays 12.6 less mins. These #'s suggest Moon is on par or better defensively than James.

The only category that James beat Moon was in assists.

James -7.2
Moon -1.2

It's a decisive victory for James but I gotta give props to Moon.

While you cannot replace James strength & presence these #'s say that Moon & James r very similar in many ways and this is the reason why you cannot base arguments on stats because anyone with eyes knows lebron is better but the stats say otherwise.

If stats do tell the tape then we've got a gem on our hands in Moon. :D or that James is overrated.

Sorry dude, I don't know if the math took you a long time, but James attempts 9.2 more FT. Not that it matters.

James gets his stats by taking on an entire team by himself (can anyone else name another Cav?lol), while Moon gets most of his points off of double teams from Bosh or off an assist during a fast break. Moon doesn't really create his own shot under pressure like James does.

A better comparison would be Moon and Marion - since both players rely on guard play for their pts. Both rebound, stl and blk well.

If you compare stats/floor time, age, and salary - Moon actually beats out Marion.

_Sn1P3r_
07-07-2008, 05:18 PM
He isnt the best PG already?:eyebrow::eyebrow::speechless:

Lol.

Musical Tempo
07-07-2008, 05:22 PM
Sorry dude, I don't know if the math took you a long time, but James attempts 9.2 more FT. Not that it matters.

James gets his stats by taking on an entire team by himself (can anyone else name another Cav?lol), while Moon gets most of his points off of double teams from Bosh or off an assist during a fast break. Moon doesn't really create his own shot under pressure like James does.

A better comparison would be Moon and Marion - since both players rely on guard play for their pts. Both rebound, stl and blk well.

If you compare stats/floor time, age, and salary - Moon actually beats out Marion.

That still is a pretty bad comparison.. I would take Marion over Moon any given Sunday.


Moon = Desmond Mason

Ragun
07-07-2008, 05:39 PM
Stats dont determine everything. Moon has no offensive skill except for dunking and hitting the occasional three.

B2B
07-07-2008, 05:51 PM
Sorry dude, I don't know if the math took you a long time, but James attempts 9.2 more FT. Not that it matters.

James gets his stats by taking on an entire team by himself (can anyone else name another Cav?lol), while Moon gets most of his points off of double teams from Bosh or off an assist during a fast break. Moon doesn't really create his own shot under pressure like James does.

A better comparison would be Moon and Marion - since both players rely on guard play for their pts. Both rebound, stl and blk well.

If you compare stats/floor time, age, and salary - Moon actually beats out Marion.

That explains why Moon ended up with less points with his % being higher
I subtracted Lebrons FT% 71.2 from Moons FT% 74.1 crossing my #'s because I'm at work and rushing. Although you're being a smart *** atleast thanks for pointing that out.

You want to know what's even funnier than what you & some others think about this thread is that you think the point of it is to prove Moon is = or better than Lebron, and that's funny.

The purpose is not to prove Moon is = to Lebron but to show the fallacy of stats.

by the way I may not have finished school because I got locked up but while I was in school I got high grades, don't doubt my intelligence, I may not be the smartest person but I'm fairly well educated.

Make fun if you will but I'll remember you.

Bricklayer
07-07-2008, 06:05 PM
[QUOTE=B2B;5765749]That explains why Moon ended up with less points with his % being higher
I subtracted Lebrons FT% 71.2 from Moons FT% 74.1 crossing my #'s because I'm at work and rushing. Although you're being a smart *** atleast thanks for pointing that out.

You want to know what's even funnier than what you & some others think about this thread is that you think the point of it is to prove Moon is = or better than Lebron, and that's funny.

The purpose is not to prove Moon is = to Lebron but to show the fallacy of stats.

by the way I may not have finished school because I got locked up but while I was in school I got high grades, don't doubt my intelligence, I may not be the smartest person but I'm fairly well educated.

Make fun if you will but I'll remember you.

Bricklayer
07-07-2008, 06:09 PM
Kinda creepy man :eyebrow:

_Sn1P3r_
07-07-2008, 06:32 PM
Kinda creepy man :eyebrow:

I know. I don't know whether to feel violated or scared. :confused:

Musical Tempo
07-07-2008, 06:42 PM
by the way I may not have finished school because I got locked up but while I was in school I got high grades, don't doubt my intelligence, I may not be the smartest person but I'm fairly well educated.

Make fun if you will but I'll remember you.

:guns:
My mom told me not to talk to criminals over the internet, only in person.
:hide:

We need more superheros less criminals
(BOSH FOR PRIME MINISTER)
:superman:

B2B
07-07-2008, 06:47 PM
[QUOTE=Bricklayer;5765949]

:guns:
My mom told me not to talk to criminals over the internet, only in person.
:hide:

We need more superheros less criminals
(BOSH FOR PRIME MINISTER)
:superman:

I'm not a criminal, a ex friend of mine who I used to role with shot someone 4 times with me in his presence and an eye witness who was obviously **** eyed identified me as the shooter. I spent a year & 1/2 in & out of the Jail & court house. I was never convicted because "I wasn't the shooter". I'm a cool fella that's not my scene & I don't promote that behavior, I just live amongst it.

R. Johnson#3
07-07-2008, 06:56 PM
I agree, Jamario Moon is better than LeBron James and Adonal Foyle is better than Amare Stoudemire....COME ON! I'm gonna luagh at you now...

B2B
07-07-2008, 07:08 PM
I agree, Jamario Moon is better than LeBron James and Adonal Foyle is better than Amare Stoudemire....COME ON! I'm gonna luagh at you now...

Laugh all you want, enjoy.

Musical Tempo
07-07-2008, 08:08 PM
[QUOTE=Musical Tempo;5766462]

I'm not a criminal, a ex friend of mine who I used to role with shot someone 4 times with me in his presence and an eye witness who was obviously **** eyed identified me as the shooter. I spent a year & 1/2 in & out of the Jail & court house. I was never convicted because "I wasn't the shooter". I'm a cool fella that's not my scene & I don't promote that behavior, I just live amongst it.

Sorry to hear that...that really must have messed up your life in the long-run(Career Wise). Why donít you get after the system, get some money for damages. I was just watching Paul Bernardo, and how many people was accused before he was put to justice. For men like him I wish Canada had a death penalty. Some man served 12 year, I think Antonio was his name, is suppose to get a nice settlement from the Supreme Court. This whole system is corrupt within itself. If you snitch you walk, if you donít snitch( because you fear for your life) your locked up, if your a criminal of high power they let you wonder the streets so they can catch the criminals of higher power then yourselves making it impossible to catch mafia bosses, and criminal masterminds (if I was a leader I would be a dictator like Stalin and eliminate ever criminal in sight Big, Small, or Petty Thieve...this is why communism works because people arenít put in situations where they have to do criminal activities to survive and society is able to justify with them because they cant manage to survive on their own.) Capitalism is for the rich and greed.

da1nonly
07-07-2008, 09:01 PM
hmmmm... 1 on 1 moon against lebron...
who wins best out of 100 games? i say lebron gets the best of that 99 out 100... i give one to moon becuz lebron gets distracted signing autographs for fans and moon takes advantage to win a narrow decision with one of his ill advised three pointer that somehow hits backboard before rolling around the rim and in..

now some may say that this isn't a fair comparison because basketball is a team sport...but since we're dealing with fantasy... let's say we cloned lebron and moon... now we have a team of 12 lebron james against 12 jamario moons...

i'll put my money on the king.... 100 out of 100 times... one of lebron's on the bench can now sign autographs... no more distractions.... moon gets smoked...

in all seriousness... if the point of this thread is to point out how statistics can sometimes be meaningless then the point was proven.....

khanraymond
07-07-2008, 09:07 PM
That explains why Moon ended up with less points with his % being higher
I subtracted Lebrons FT% 71.2 from Moons FT% 74.1 crossing my #'s because I'm at work and rushing. Although you're being a smart *** atleast thanks for pointing that out.

You want to know what's even funnier than what you & some others think about this thread is that you think the point of it is to prove Moon is = or better than Lebron, and that's funny.

The purpose is not to prove Moon is = to Lebron but to show the fallacy of stats.

by the way I may not have finished school because I got locked up but while I was in school I got high grades, don't doubt my intelligence, I may not be the smartest person but I'm fairly well educated.

Make fun if you will but I'll remember you.

you need to calm a bit. Don't pull an Artest on me now.

I wasn't comparing LJ to Moon as a player, but comparing their stats doesn't make sense since they face different defensive pressures. It's very subjective. For example - comparing Amare before Shaq to after Shaq - did he all of sudden find some hidden talent or did Shaq take defensive pressure off of him. If Amare was on Lakers, he would have had even better stats because of Gasol and Kobe getting even more attention.

When you compare statistical production, you need to take in account the situation their playing in and their role on the team.

I think comparing LJ to Carter in the KO days is fair -since VC faced alot of double and triple teams. You'll notice similiar percentages.

Bramaca
07-07-2008, 09:53 PM
Reason why I posted this:

"Bosh is not really a better shooter than Moon. Moon shot .484 mostly from the perimeter and .328 from 3 while Bosh shot .494 mostly from near the paint and .400 from 3 on only 25 shots (he is a career .309 from 3) so I don't see Bosh being a big upgrade at the perimeter shooting. You say that Moon can't even dribble, I'll say that you put Bosh at the 3 and watch him try to drive against NBA 3's guarding him and you'll be saying the same thing about him."

I disagree my eyes tell me Bosh is better.

Since you obviously have a problem with what I said I'll respond. My response, what you quoted above, was to a comment where you said that Bosh was a better perimeter shooter than Moon. Its possible he may be a little better but he isn't that much better which I acknowledged in my post. "so I don't see Bosh being a big upgrade at the perimeter shooting". As you said defenders backed off of Moon to let him shoot, well they did the same with Bosh last year because his jumper wasn't that good.

I showed stats to emphasize the point that Bosh isn't a huge upgade from Moon as a perimeter shooter. And while you made this thread to prove my point wrong you have to realize I was only comparing perimeter shooting and not the overall players skills like you are here. Yes Bosh is a better player but I didn't think it was a good idea to move him to the 3 in the other thread and nothing in this thread changes that one bit. I'll use a football example; Michael Vick when he was playing for the Falcons was a great athlete and could have played a few other positions quite well but you don't move a pro-bowl QB to RB because he might be better then who you have there, you keep him where he is most effective.

I'm sure the idea of tossing out a bunch of really big and physical players seems appealing for matchups but the negatives outweigh the positives and is why you don't really see teams do it.

B2B
07-07-2008, 11:46 PM
[QUOTE=B2B;5766534]

Sorry to hear that...that really must have messed up your life in the long-run(Career Wise). Why donít you get after the system, get some money for damages. I was just watching Paul Bernardo, and how many people was accused before he was put to justice. For men like him I wish Canada had a death penalty. Some man served 12 year, I think Antonio was his name, is suppose to get a nice settlement from the Supreme Court. This whole system is corrupt within itself. If you snitch you walk, if you donít snitch( because you fear for your life) your locked up, if your a criminal of high power they let you wonder the streets so they can catch the criminals of higher power then yourselves making it impossible to catch mafia bosses, and criminal masterminds (if I was a leader I would be a dictator like Stalin and eliminate ever criminal in sight Big, Small, or Petty Thieve...this is why communism works because people arenít put in situations where they have to do criminal activities to survive and society is able to justify with them because they cant manage to survive on their own.) Capitalism is for the rich and greed.

Sorry to hear that...that really must have messed up your life in the long-run(Career Wise)

It actually changed me for the better, I now own a buisness and operate 3 stores.

Who know's if that didn't happen I may be dead by now as the people I use to move with live a fast life. I've seen & done quite a bit in my life but the thing I remember most was a few years back, I watched a man stab his own brother in the head & neck with an ice pick because he owed him a dollar and refused to pay. That to me was the epitemy of ignorance, when you can kill you're own brother over a dollar, I never forgot that scene & probably never will.

In another thread I asked LD if he thought a man can change and he said no. I beg to differ, as I'm as far away from the man I was then to now.

I may have got kicked off my basketball team & out of school but I eventually became a better man overall & don't regret the learning experience as it was the turning point in my life. It's amazing the kind of motivation you have when you get a second chance at life.

If I had snitched, I may have walked free but my shot would've call. All I could do was hope my court appointed lawyer could prove me innocent.

You also learn who you're true friends r when you hit rock bottom.

I trust none but god & the thing I hate most is the glorification of violence because there is none, it's just ignorance & stupidity.

B2B
07-08-2008, 12:18 AM
Since you obviously have a problem with what I said I'll respond. My response, what you quoted above, was to a comment where you said that Bosh was a better perimeter shooter than Moon. Its possible he may be a little better but he isn't that much better which I acknowledged in my post. "so I don't see Bosh being a big upgrade at the perimeter shooting". As you said defenders backed off of Moon to let him shoot, well they did the same with Bosh last year because his jumper wasn't that good.

I showed stats to emphasize the point that Bosh isn't a huge upgade from Moon as a perimeter shooter. And while you made this thread to prove my point wrong you have to realize I was only comparing perimeter shooting and not the overall players skills like you are here. Yes Bosh is a better player but I didn't think it was a good idea to move him to the 3 in the other thread and nothing in this thread changes that one bit. I'll use a football example; Michael Vick when he was playing for the Falcons was a great athlete and could have played a few other positions quite well but you don't move a pro-bowl QB to RB because he might be better then who you have there, you keep him where he is most effective.

I'm sure the idea of tossing out a bunch of really big and physical players seems appealing for matchups but the negatives outweigh the positives and is why you don't really see teams do it.

Its possible he may be a little better but he isn't that much better

Thats you're opinion & you used stats to back it up.

I think Bosh is much better, Moon's FG% is high because most of his FG's r due to slam dunks that's why his #'s r skewed. Bosh has a high FG% hitting 22' jumpshots big difference. (Here in lies the reason I made this thread)

- When Bosh shoots I'm very comfortable with his shot

- When Moon shoots I pray it goes in

If they were equal in this area shouldn't I have more faith in Moon's shot? but I don't, which to me would suggest Bosh is better without using stats

I get you're point but you're Vick comparison is terrible.

Moving a QB to a RB is much different than moving a PF to SF especially when I consider the player to be a hybrid SF/PF

O.K lets consider this scenario

O'Neal is Favre
Bosh is Vick

Favre can only play QB
Vick can play QB & RB

If you play Vick at QB Favre cannot play but if you were to move Vick to runninng back you have Brett Favre to take his place at QB. Now Favre can't play RB but Vick can by moving Vick you allow Favre to play alongside Vick as QB.

Sure Vick is a better QB than RB but by moving him you allow Favre to play & not some scrub player, Vick is being replaced by a quality QB which would allow him to play RB & allow for both to take the field together.

Jawai can play C
O'Neal can play C/PF
Bosh can play C/PF/SF

viniciusdcs
07-08-2008, 12:46 AM
Moon would simply own Lebron on a 1 on 1 match:). lolZ

Bramaca
07-08-2008, 12:55 AM
Its possible he may be a little better but he isn't that much better

Thats you're opinion & you used stats to back it up.

I think Bosh is much better, Moon's FG% is high because most of his FG's r due to slam dunks that's why his #'s r skewed. Bosh has a high FG% hitting 22' jumpshots big difference. (Here in lies the reason I made this thread)

- When Bosh shoots I'm very comfortable with his shot

- When Moon shoots I pray it goes in

If they were equal in this area shouldn't I have more faith in Moon's shot? but I don't, which to me would suggest Bosh is better without using stats

Maybe it should be or maybe you should have less faith in Bosh's jump shot. Fans tend to put the star player on a pedistal and gloss over their weaknesses. I know you hate stats but if you are going to make statements about Bosh having a better jump shot then Moon just based on your feelings when they shoot and using different excuses as to why that is then expect stats to keep coming at you to emphasize my point. So here are some more;

http://www.82games.com/0708/07TOR15A.HTM

Bosh
Shot Att. eFG% Ast'd Blk'd Pts
Jump 58% .414 66% 2% 7.3

http://www.82games.com/0708/07TOR8A.HTM

Moon
Shot Att. eFG% Ast'd Blk'd Pts
Jump 67% .441 81% 1% 4.4

Neither one of them are great jump shooters but as you can see I wouldn't put Bosh down as a lot better than Moon.


I get you're point but you're Vick comparison is terrible.

Moving a QB to a RB is much different than moving a PF to SF especially when I consider the player to be a hybrid SF/PF

O.K lets consider this scenario

O'Neal is Favre
Bosh is Vick

Favre can only play QB
Vick can play QB & RB

If you play Vick at QB Favre cannot play but if you were to move Vick to runninng back you have Brett Favre to take his place at QB. Now Favre can't play RB but Vick can by moving Vick you allow Favre to play alongside Vick as QB.

Sure Vick is a better QB than RB but by moving him you allow Favre to play & not some scrub player, Vick is being replaced by a quality QB which would allow him to play RB & allow for both to take the field together.

Jawai can play C
O'Neal can play C/PF
Bosh can play C/PF/SF

Just because you see him as a hybrid pf/sf doesn't mean it is a bad example. And to deal with your spin on my example, you trade one of them to fill a need. If they were to play Bosh at the sf the Raps would be better off just trading him for somebody who is an all-star at the sg/sf position. Leave him at pf, that is where he belongs.

star
07-08-2008, 01:00 AM
dude .... anyone can shoot a high percentage if they take less shots.

IE ... 40% shooting 50 shots is harder than going 4/10 (40%)

Bramaca
07-08-2008, 01:09 AM
dude .... anyone can shoot a high percentage if they take less shots.

IE ... 40% shooting 50 shots is harder than going 4/10 (40%)

I would agree with you on that if Moon had barely taken any jump shots but he took 410 during the season so its a pretty good indication of how well he shoots.

B2B
07-08-2008, 01:26 AM
I would agree with you on that if Moon had barely taken any jump shots but he took 410 during the season so its a pretty good indication of how well he shoots.

Players were playing off of Moon & gave him the open shot, many times when Moon shoots it's because he was left wide open they were daring him to shoot. Bosh commands double teams and takes alot of contested & pressure shots, these r variables stats don't show and why my thread is so funny to everyone.

In this thread with the stats I provided if you were to acknowledge the stats without ever seeing either player play Moon statisticly is better than Lebron in almost every category with the exception of assists but every man jack who has seen the two play know there is no comparison & that James is hands down the better player despite what the stats say. Stats lie, they r not good enough evidence to prove a point.

Just check at all the posters laughing at my comparison.

Stats say Moon is = or better than James but everyone knows James is better, why?. because you just know by witnessing with your own eyes. You're eyes tell you the truth not stats.

My eyes tell me Bosh is better than Moon at shooting despite the stats. The stats say otherwise. Do I believe the stats or my eyes?.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-08-2008, 01:36 AM
James - shooting |FG%-48.4|3PT%-31.5|FT%-71.2|
Moon - shooting |FG%-48.5|3PT%-32.8|FT%-74.1|

Moon & James percentages r similar in this category.

James attempts |FG%-21.9|3PT%-4.8|FT%-10.3|
James made |FG%-10.6|3PT%-1.5|FT%-7.3|

Moon attempts |FG%-7.4|3PT%-1.6|FT%-1.1|
Moon made |FG%-3.6|3PT%-0.5|FT%-0.8|

James attempts |14.5 more FG's|3.3 more 3PT's|3 more FT's|

Using Moon's percentages, this is the calculation if Moon was to attempt the same amount of shots as James

14.5 * 48.5 / 100 * 2 = 14.1 points rounding up

3.3 * 32.8 / 100 *3 = 3.2 points rounding down

3 * 74.1 / 100 *1 = 2.2 points rounding down

Total 19.5 points if Moon was to attempt the same amount of shots as James

With James percentages actually less than Moon's I don't know how moon ended up with less points :shrug:

James PPG = 30
Moons PPG if he attempts the same amount of shots as James maintaining his percentages = 28

What these pct's suggest is that Moons offence is on par with James if he was to take the same amount of shot attempts.

James - defensively |STL-1.8|RPG O-1.8/D-6.1 TOT-7.9|BLKS-1.1|
Moon - defensively |STL-1.0|RPG O-1.2/D-5.0 TOT-6.2|BLKS-1.4|

Keep in mind Moon plays 12.6 less mins. These #'s suggest Moon is on par or better defensively than James.

The only category that James beat Moon was in assists.

James -7.2
Moon -1.2

It's a decisive victory for James but I gotta give props to Moon.

While you cannot replace James strength & presence these #'s say that Moon & James r very similar in many ways and this is the reason why you cannot base arguments on stats because anyone with eyes knows lebron is better but the stats say otherwise.

If stats do tell the tape then we've got a gem on our hands in Moon. :D or that James is overrated.


Raptors fans are seriously.... SERIOUSLY going crazy. with tha Jermaine O'Neal pickup, they're suddenly tha Dream Team, all of the NBA should fear them. Now Jamario Moon mentioned in the same breath as LeBron James? This guys isn't puttin up half the numbers LeBron is, and is 5 years older.

All those statistics are just "What if's"...

"If Wishes were fishes... We'd all have a fish-fry."

Bramaca
07-08-2008, 01:53 AM
Players were playing off of Moon & gave him the open shot, many times when Moon shoots it's because he was left wide open they were daring him to shoot. Bosh commands double teams and takes alot of contested & pressure shots, these r variables stats don't show and why my thread is so funny to everyone.

In this thread with the stats I provided if you were to acknowledge the stats without ever seeing either player play Moon statisticly is better than Lebron in almost every category with the exception of assists but every man jack who has seen the two play know there is no comparison & that James is hands down the better player despite what the stats say. Stats lie, they r not good enough evidence to prove a point.

Just check at all the posters laughing at my comparison.

Stats say Moon is = or better than James but everyone knows James is better, why?. because you just know by witnessing with your own eyes. You're eyes tell you the truth not stats.

My eyes tell me Bosh is better than Moon at shooting despite the stats. The stats say otherwise. Do I believe the stats or my eyes?.

I find you're example funny too. But I also find it completely irrelevant to the discussion we were having. You're trying to argue that I am only looking at the stats, which I am not. I watched almost all of last years games too and with my eyes saw Bosh miss a lot of wide open jump shots, and I cringed when he took them because the other team was daring him to take them instead of drive. The result more often then not was a missed shot. So like you I used what I saw also but I used stats to strengthen my argument which you seem to think actually detracts from it.

But since you are bound and determined that Bosh at the sf spot is a good idea lets review how it would affect his game.

FG% - would go down because he would be taking more jumpshots
FT Attempts - would go down because he would be going against quicker defenders on the perimeter and wouldn't draw the fouls that he does against slower interior players.
Rebounds - would go down because he wouldn't be around the net as much.
Turnovers - would go up because he would be handling the ball more.
Assists - may go up since he would be handling the ball more.
Blocks - likely to go down because he would be around the rim less on defense.

Overall, I really see no positives from Bosh playing the 3 as compared to having Bosh play the 4 and JO the 5 for Bosh individually or for the team. To me it would be a complete waste of an all-star pf.

B2B
07-08-2008, 02:15 AM
I find you're example funny too. But I also find it completely irrelevant to the discussion we were having. You're trying to argue that I am only looking at the stats, which I am not. I watched almost all of last years games too and with my eyes saw Bosh miss a lot of wide open jump shots, and I cringed when he took them because the other team was daring him to take them instead of drive. The result more often then not was a missed shot. So like you I used what I saw also but I used stats to strengthen my argument which you seem to think actually detracts from it.

But since you are bound and determined that Bosh at the sf spot is a good idea lets review how it would affect his game.

FG% - would go down because he would be taking more jumpshots
FT Attempts - would go down because he would be going against quicker defenders on the perimeter and wouldn't draw the fouls that he does against slower interior players.
Rebounds - would go down because he wouldn't be around the net as much.
Turnovers - would go up because he would be handling the ball more.
Assists - may go up since he would be handling the ball more.
Blocks - likely to go down because he would be around the rim less on defense.

Overall, I really see no positives from Bosh playing the 3 as compared to having Bosh play the 4 and JO the 5 for Bosh individually or for the team. To me it would be a complete waste of an all-star pf.

The laughter in this thread prove stats r ****

You say Bosh is not a better shooter than Moon because it's what you witnessed. If that's the case I'll leave this point as your opinon as apposed to mine.

This is where you're getting tie up with me. I think it's an intriguing idea that I would like to see tried.

I really don't know how you can break down what will happen to his game without ever seeing him play with that combination of players. That is assumption and is not enough to deter me from wanting to see it tried.

FG% - would go down because he would be taking more jumpshots (You know this?.)
FT Attempts - would go down because he would be going against quicker defenders on the perimeter and wouldn't draw the fouls that he does against slower interior players. (as I suggested in the Bargs post he would be playing against select players Odom,Kirelenko etc.... not the PP's & Lebrons)
Rebounds - would go down because he wouldn't be around the net as much.(No but Jawai & O'Neal will be there)
Turnovers - would go up because he would be handling the ball more. (If you say so who can argue that)
Assists - may go up since he would be handling the ball more. (He's a decent passer for a big man)
Blocks - likely to go down because he would be around the rim less on defense.(Once again if you say so)

All I have to say to you is that I appreciate you're foresight & intelligence but there's nothing like proof in the pudding.

I want to see it tried before I call it a failure not call it a failure before it's tried.

BH-Sports
07-08-2008, 03:46 AM
Im sorry who is moon? i heard hes some dinosaur looking kid who apparently got a starting role with the Raptors. REPLACE HIM PLEASE

Bramaca
07-09-2008, 12:05 AM
The laughter in this thread prove stats r ****

The "laughter" doesn't prove anything other than stats can be manipulated into outrageous assumptions. That is what you did in this thread, you took simple stats and twisted them into a ridiculous conclusion. Stats aren't complete ****, how they can be used and manipulated by people is.

What I used was a basic and simple stat of FG% that wasn't manipulated at all, that wasn't good enough for you because it didn't take into account all of Moon's dunks which you said skewed his FG%. Fair enough. So I found the stat for only jumpshots which actually showed that Bosh's numbers were helped more by his inside game. But thats not good enough because you said that Bosh gets double teamed while Moon gets left open (I don't agree with this since Bosh only gets doubled if he tries to go inside, other teams want him to take the jump shot). But fine, fair enough so I decided to take a look at how Bosh's jump shot compared to other "star" power forwards in the league who get the same treatment as Bosh. They were Garnett (.472), Dirk (.497), Rasheed Wallace (.468), JO (.363), Gasol (.453), West (.434), Stoudamire (.461), Duncan (.375), and Boozer (.447). Bosh's .414 ranks only above Duncan (who is generally considered a bad jump shooter) and JO and well behind all the other similarlly treated pf's.

Isn't it possible that the stats aren't **** and instead your perception of Bosh's jump shot is? I don't agree with your idea of having Bosh at the 3 but its your opinion. But when you list off the strengths of having him there don't use his jump shot as one of them because it isn't.

B2B
07-09-2008, 12:53 AM
The "laughter" doesn't prove anything other than stats can be manipulated into outrageous assumptions. That is what you did in this thread, you took simple stats and twisted them into a ridiculous conclusion. Stats aren't complete ****, how they can be used and manipulated by people is.

What I used was a basic and simple stat of FG% that wasn't manipulated at all, that wasn't good enough for you because it didn't take into account all of Moon's dunks which you said skewed his FG%. Fair enough. So I found the stat for only jumpshots which actually showed that Bosh's numbers were helped more by his inside game. But thats not good enough because you said that Bosh gets double teamed while Moon gets left open (I don't agree with this since Bosh only gets doubled if he tries to go inside, other teams want him to take the jump shot). But fine, fair enough so I decided to take a look at how Bosh's jump shot compared to other "star" power forwards in the league who get the same treatment as Bosh. They were Garnett (.472), Dirk (.497), Rasheed Wallace (.468), JO (.363), Gasol (.453), West (.434), Stoudamire (.461), Duncan (.375), and Boozer (.447). Bosh's .414 ranks only above Duncan (who is generally considered a bad jump shooter) and JO and well behind all the other similarlly treated pf's.

Isn't it possible that the stats aren't **** and instead your perception of Bosh's jump shot is? I don't agree with your idea of having Bosh at the 3 but its your opinion. But when you list off the strengths of having him there don't use his jump shot as one of them because it isn't.

But when you list off the strengths of having him there don't use his jump shot as one of them because it isn't.

When did I say that Bosh's ability to shoot is the reason to play him at the 3?.

I think you forgot what I posted so I'll repost it.

So you think Jamario was spreading the floor being the threat he was from the arc **** man people were giving him that shot & protecting the paint. You say Bosh can dribble only 2 times before turning the ball over well Moon can't even dribble yet we managed to have him on the floor. Depending on the matchups we're working Bosh can hit the 3 but idealy we don't want that Both he & O'Neal can hit the 22 footer with consistency, Bosh with the higher % so they can draw players away from the key if need be.

Bosh shoots better than Moon so players can't cheat off of him.

Adv of having all three on the floor

On offence

-Offensive rebounds
-size & strength

On defence

-All three can block shots
-O'Neal is tough defensively
-Bosh is a good weakside defender
-Jawai is intimidation in the middle supposedly also a good defender. Time will tell.

I can't explain it to you but trust me with the proper direction the paint would never be clogged because you're rotating O'Neal & Bosh with Jawai the main constant cleaning up the garbage but with atleast 2 of them always close to the basket I see our offensive board totals & put backs going up.

As you can clearly see the advantages that I listed were

Defence
Shotblocking
Size & Strength
Intimidation
Rebounding

Tell me again how I listed Bosh's shooting as an adv. I said his ability to shoot the long range jumper can draw people away from the key but don't make it seem like it was the reason I wanted to play him at the 3.

I said Bosh shoots better than Moon so players can't cheat off of him. You brought out stats to show me Moon is on par with Bosh FG% & 3PT% wise.
Moon had more wide open shots than any other Raptor because teams were playing off of him giving him a free shot & were daring him to shoot. He shot a decent % but mostly because they were uncontested. That's what I saw & that's how I see it and no amount of stats can convince me otherwise.

Bramaca
07-09-2008, 01:18 AM
Tell me again how I listed Bosh's shooting as an adv. I said his ability to shoot the long range jumper can draw people away from the key but don't make it seem like it was the reason I wanted to play him at the 3.

Kapono and Parker's ability to hit the long range jumper can draw people away from the key, but they still cheated off them. And when you said that Bosh's jumper was better than Moon's enough to draw people away, that is listing it as an advantage over Moon. I haven't seen anything in games or in stats that would convince me that he is much more then equal to Moon in this catagory. Were you going for piss breaks or something when teams dropped off of Bosh and let him take the jumper? Because it happened most games. My biggest problem is that fans tend to put the best players on their team on a pedestal thinking that they can do things they really can't or shouldn't be doing. But I'll leave it at that since we are going nowhere anyways.

B2B
07-09-2008, 01:36 AM
Kapono and Parker's ability to hit the long range jumper can draw people away from the key, but they still cheated off them. And when you said that Bosh's jumper was better than Moon's enough to draw people away, that is listing it as an advantage over Moon. I haven't seen anything in games or in stats that would convince me that he is much more then equal to Moon in this catagory. Were you going for piss breaks or something when teams dropped off of Bosh and let him take the jumper? Because it happened most games. My biggest problem is that fans tend to put the best players on their team on a pedestal thinking that they can do things they really can't or shouldn't be doing. But I'll leave it at that since we are going nowhere anyways.

I'll leave it at that since we are going nowhere anyways

The only thing I agree with you on.

Denverb2b
07-09-2008, 12:57 PM
Im laughing so hard I nearly peed myself