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View Full Version : A-Rod vs. Ramirez



Tragedy
07-06-2008, 09:47 PM
Career wise, who has been better?

My brother continues to debate this with me, and he won't reason with me. I want to hear what you guys say first, then I'll add in who I've been fighting for.

Driven
07-07-2008, 12:00 AM
I'm sure you've been arguing for Ramirez, and he has been arguing for A-Rod.

I pick Manny. Although A-Rod is probably more valuable.

Joba Rules!!
07-07-2008, 01:40 AM
Manny- .312/.408/.589, 506 HR, 1657 RBI, 35 SB
A-Rod- .307/.389/.579, 536 HR, 1552 RBI, 278 SB

Can I have both?

ShinobiNYC
07-07-2008, 03:48 AM
A-Rod just based on speed and fielding, Manny is a corner OF while A-Rod is a SS/3B. Manny is a better hitter for contact but A-Rod has more power. A-Rod should win by a little margin.

C1Bman88
07-07-2008, 04:11 AM
I'll take the stronger defensive player at a demanding position over a defensive liability at the easiest defensive position any day.

I like Ramirez as a hitter, A-Rod just has the better overall package.

Buckwheat
07-07-2008, 05:56 AM
Manny is one of my favorite players, but I still believe A-Rod > anyone at this point.

Brooke
07-07-2008, 06:23 AM
Manny, he is more clutch in October when it matters most

quiksilver2491
07-07-2008, 06:49 AM
Honestly, I take the better hitter in this situation which is Manny. A Rod PLAYED good defense, he hasn't been a good fielder for some time and although Ramirez has been slumping the last few years and A Rod has been peaking, Ramirez's career numbers are still better.

Ragun
07-07-2008, 09:11 AM
A-Rod. He was also the youngest to 500 HRs...and 300 HRs...beating Pujols which is crazy and plus I think by the time A-Rod is done, he will hold the record for most home runs...he is only 32 and im sure in 10 years he would have more than 760 or whatever amount of home runs Bonds does.

quiksilver2491
07-07-2008, 11:02 AM
A-Rod. He was also the youngest to 500 HRs...and 300 HRs...beating Pujols which is crazy and plus I think by the time A-Rod is done, he will hold the record for most home runs...he is only 32 and im sure in 10 years he would have more than 760 or whatever amount of home runs Bonds does.

What's your point? I fail to understand where milestones have anything to do with career stats.

C1Bman88
07-07-2008, 01:35 PM
Honestly, I take the better hitter in this situation which is Manny. A Rod PLAYED good defense, he hasn't been a good fielder for some time and although Ramirez has been slumping the last few years and A Rod has been peaking, Ramirez's career numbers are still better.

He still plays good defense. He's not the stellar defender he once was, but he's still a very good defensive infielder. Are you looking at just fielding percentage?

cwilson21
07-07-2008, 02:04 PM
I'll take A-Rod.

ShinobiNYC
07-07-2008, 02:41 PM
Honestly, I take the better hitter in this situation which is Manny. A Rod PLAYED good defense, he hasn't been a good fielder for some time and although Ramirez has been slumping the last few years and A Rod has been peaking, Ramirez's career numbers are still better.

He has been playing very good defense last year and this year.

ShinobiNYC
07-07-2008, 02:46 PM
A-Rod has fielding stats close to Rolen and better than many good 3rd basemen like Chipper and David Wright.

xander
07-07-2008, 03:55 PM
A-Rod will end up having a better career.

chicagowhitesox
07-07-2008, 04:09 PM
It's A-Rod by a landslide. He will be the home run king by the time his career is over, and is a gold glove defender. Case closed.

quiksilver2491
07-07-2008, 04:10 PM
He still plays good defense. He's not the stellar defender he once was, but he's still a very good defensive infielder. Are you looking at just fielding percentage?

Very good might be stretching it a tad bit. No I don't use fielding % that is horrible analysis of a player's defensive capabilities. Going by the Fielding Bible and range factor he has been slightly below average to average at 3rd in recent years. This year he has improved some but I would still say he is just about average.

quiksilver2491
07-07-2008, 04:14 PM
It's A-Rod by a landslide. He will be the home run king by the time his career is over, and is a gold glove defender. Case closed.

Once again, ignorance at its best. I could care less if you vote for A-Rod just support it with a valid arguement, like previously said he no longer plays gold glove defense or anywhere near it for that matter and being home run king when you started your career at age 19 or 20 means nothing. Remember folks only on ESPN do homeruns make player A better than player B.

C1Bman88
07-07-2008, 06:25 PM
Very good might be stretching it a tad bit. No I don't use fielding % that is horrible analysis of a player's defensive capabilities. Going by the Fielding Bible and range factor he has been slightly below average to average at 3rd in recent years. This year he has improved some but I would still say he is just about average.

I'm glad you're not looking at fielding percentages.

I'm very familiar with John Dewan's work, but I suggest looking at other metrics as well (Chris Dial, etc.). This is because no system is without its flaws. Something as simple as RZR and OOZ will show you that he's been average to slightly above average over the past couple of years, for example. There's usually going to be some discrepancy.

Range factor isn't a particularly useful tool for analysis simply because it relies on putouts and assists, not ground covered, to define a player. I trust RF a lot more than I would fielding percentage, but that's not saying much.

I think "very good" is not as much of a stretch as "hasn't been good for a number of years."

Rodriguez's level of defense does not take away from the fact that Manny Ramirez is the definition of the term "liability." If you want to look at the better overall player, it'd have to go to A-Rod. That has a lot to do with the positions they play. I'll take an average to slightly above average (or even slightly below average by your definition) player that handles a challenging position than a guy that should be a DH any day.

bosox3431
07-07-2008, 08:17 PM
A-Rod by a slight margain. Basically because of speed and defense, although his D isnt near as good as when he was at short. Both great players, 2 of the best in the past 10-15 years, but speed and D give A-Rod the advantage, cause with the bat it's damn close.

quiksilver2491
07-07-2008, 08:44 PM
I'm glad you're not looking at fielding percentages.

I'm very familiar with John Dewan's work, but I suggest looking at other metrics as well (Chris Dial, etc.). This is because no system is without its flaws. Something as simple as RZR and OOZ will show you that he's been average to slightly above average over the past couple of years, for example. There's usually going to be some discrepancy.

Range factor isn't a particularly useful tool for analysis simply because it relies on putouts and assists, not ground covered, to define a player. I trust RF a lot more than I would fielding percentage, but that's not saying much.

I think "very good" is not as much of a stretch as "hasn't been good for a number of years."

Rodriguez's level of defense does not take away from the fact that Manny Ramirez is the definition of the term "liability." If you want to look at the better overall player, it'd have to go to A-Rod. That has a lot to do with the positions they play. I'll take an average to slightly above average (or even slightly below average by your definition) player that handles a challenging position than a guy that should be a DH any day.

Ok so we come to the agreement that he is average fielder, give or take a bit. Still I usually never bring up a players defensive abilities unless they are a SUPERB defender such as Troy Tulowitzki. Anyways I forgot what the exact number was but I believe for position players, defense only makes up something like 8% of their total value and the other 92% was offense (it was some article I was reading from Bill James). Going by that I would easily take Ramirez over A-Rod just as I would take Frank Thomas's no defense over Ramirez because Thomas is the better hitter than Ramirez. Maybe if defense was scaled at a value of 50% percent to offense you may have a great case for A-Rod but that's not the case, at least not in my evaluation of a player.

Tragedy
07-07-2008, 10:42 PM
I'm sure you've been arguing for Ramirez, and he has been arguing for A-Rod.

I pick Manny. Although A-Rod is probably more valuable.
Actually, I argued that it was A-Rod. He'll have far more RBI's than Manny by the time he's 36, and he clearly has the edge in power. Plus when you factor in any of the defensive stuff, of course.

sanfranfan1210
07-07-2008, 10:46 PM
I'll take A-Rod

quiksilver2491
07-07-2008, 11:11 PM
Actually, I argued that it was A-Rod. He'll have far more RBI's than Manny by the time he's 36, and he clearly has the edge in power. Plus when you factor in any of the defensive stuff, of course.

Im sorry, but I fail to understand why people think A-Rod has this huge edge in power over Manny. A-Rod hits a home run every 14.21 at bats, Manny hits a home run every 14.55 at bats. So A-Rod is a better home run hitter than Manny by a very small margin, but keep in mind Manny has already hit his cooling point where many would argue A-Rod is still in his prime. Then lets look at SLG, where I would gauge their true power. Manny has a career .594 SLG% where A-Rod has a .577 SLG%, I find that simply amazing considering A-Rod hits more HR's/AB and A-Rod was at one time a fast runner and is still much faster than Manny is. Go ahead, call me a homer but just as I would take Ramirez over Rodriguez I would take Frank Thomas over Manny.

Tragedy
07-07-2008, 11:59 PM
Im sorry, but I fail to understand why people think A-Rod has this huge edge in power over Manny. A-Rod hits a home run every 14.21 at bats, Manny hits a home run every 14.55 at bats. So A-Rod is a better home run hitter than Manny by a very small margin, but keep in mind Manny has already hit his cooling point where many would argue A-Rod is still in his prime. Then lets look at SLG, where I would gauge their true power. Manny has a career .594 SLG% where A-Rod has a .577 SLG%, I find that simply amazing considering A-Rod hits more HR's/AB and A-Rod was at one time a fast runner and is still much faster than Manny is. Go ahead, call me a homer but just as I would take Ramirez over Rodriguez I would take Frank Thomas over Manny.
A-Rod has played 14 seasons, with 536 HR's (Age at 14th season: 32).
Ramirez, at 14 seasons, had 470 (Age at 14th season: 36).

I think that's why people believe A-Rod > Ramirez, as far as power goes.

Driven
07-08-2008, 03:09 AM
But home runs is not an indicator of how much power someone has. It's an indicator of how many home runs someone has. And I don't think RBIs are a legit argument as well.

Manny is the better hitter. Period. Gets on base more. Has basically the same slugging percentage. He's the better player.

Now is he more valuable than A-Rod? Probably not, due to their respective positions. But Manny's the better player.

quiksilver2491
07-08-2008, 10:44 AM
A-Rod has played 14 seasons, with 536 HR's (Age at 14th season: 32).
Ramirez, at 14 seasons, had 470 (Age at 14th season: 36).

I think that's why people believe A-Rod > Ramirez, as far as power goes.

I guess I never realized more at bats = more power. Judging by rate stats they look just about the same to me :shrug:


But home runs is not an indicator of how much power someone has. It's an indicator of how many home runs someone has. And I don't think RBIs are a legit argument as well.

Manny is the better hitter. Period. Gets on base more. Has basically the same slugging percentage. He's the better player.

Now is he more valuable than A-Rod? Probably not, due to their respective positions. But Manny's the better player.

I always knew you were more intelligent than the "average PSD poster", might have taken me a while to realize that but you get the point :D

Driven
07-08-2008, 01:16 PM
I am a smart poster, just a horrible poster as well. ;)

Sc00py
07-09-2008, 06:24 PM
Ill take Manny...2 world series rings

JAYZFAN9
07-09-2008, 06:35 PM
Ill take the guy with 3 MVP awards... AROD

RedSoxRok34
07-10-2008, 05:18 PM
im g2 get flamed by other sox fans, but id take arod. IMO, manny is the best pure hitter in the game (maybe not anymore), but arod has more power and is a better fielder, without giving up much in the pure hitting category.

they're both absolutely amazing players, but arod's on his way to 800 HRs and could probably play any position on the field except pitcher and catcher.