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truRAPTORSfan
07-04-2008, 11:52 AM
i been think and to me its looks like the runner up to the 05-06 R.O.Y awards could be coming home with a six man award this years or next year because if u think about it he will always be on the floor with CB4 or J.O. and its not crazy to say that the B.O.B. brothers will be of the floor together at sametimes sometimes, so other teams bigs can account for all of them and u best believe brags is going to be the one left open

Dragan
07-04-2008, 11:56 AM
It all depends wether he has the talent that BC saw in him and if the summer training plan that he is on works out, and if Brags mans up and plays with an atitude, then and only then can he be really good.

ramz.n
07-04-2008, 11:57 AM
i think it could go either way, as you said Barg would be left open...but he would also be guarded by quicker smaller forwards..like last year when Bargnani would drive to the basket he would contantly lose the ball..hopefully he can maintain control the situation without turning it over and defend on defense.. i know we have Bosh and O'neal but i would be pretty pissed if ever play i had to run over for help defence leaving someone open underneath.

nads83
07-04-2008, 12:04 PM
i feel bargs will either return to his rookie form, which isnt exactly a good thing, or he will be better. he will definatly not regress further, thats impossible.
worst case scenario...11pts 5rebs 41%fg
best case scenario...15pts 6rebs 45%fg

CHeeZe
07-04-2008, 02:48 PM
I see bargs avg more pts per game this year. I don't know about everyone else but when i watched the raps games last year and jose was on the floor he looked for bargs, when t..j. was out there is was ,"T.J. or C.B", there was numerous times last year when i was saying "bargs is open.." nothing. With all the attention on the big two i see him producing more. I think he will avg 12-15 pts a game.

Dragan
07-04-2008, 03:04 PM
if somhow by soem holy intervention brags can defend the sf's in teh nba, and if he plays with bosh and Oneal, and if he gets his scoring tuch and starts goign to teh basket he can aveage 17 to 19 points a game.
but im expecting 16-17 ppg and 6- 6.5 rpg (and that only if he lerns somthing in the big man camp)

Raptors27
07-04-2008, 03:37 PM
hes not gonna win the 6th man award imo. He may average 15-16 ppg but only 4 boards max and 1 assist.

B2B
07-04-2008, 03:44 PM
Insted of Bargs I would like to see a lineup of:

Jawai - Banger Although he's unproven I think he can fill that role
O'Neal - has the strength
Bosh - has the speed
Parker - Shooter or Moon/Adams - Defence
Calderon - Distributer

RoyHalladay#32
07-04-2008, 03:52 PM
I would like to see this as our starting lineup.
C O'neal/Jawai
PF Bosh/Hump
SF Bargs/Moon/Kapono/Graham
SG Parker/Delfino/Adams
PG Calderon/Ukic

B2B
07-04-2008, 04:00 PM
I would like to see this as our starting lineup.
C O'neal/Jawai
PF Bosh/Hump
SF Bargs/Moon/Kapono/Graham
SG Parker/Delfino/Adams
PG Calderon/Ukic

Bargs will be fine on the offence end but at SF his D will be exposed. I think Bosh is the better defender at the 3 spot which would allow 3, 7 foot monsters on at once. Jawai could absorb alot of the punishment O'neil might take at centre doing all the dirty work. I wouldn't look for Jawai to do anything but putbacks & leave the rest to O'Neal & Bosh. Then you have the option of putting offence in the SG spot in (Parker) or you can go defensive to help Bosh with (Moon or Adams) and just let Calderon pick teams apart.

torontosports10
07-04-2008, 04:02 PM
ya try him as a SF to see what he can do. If not he will get tons of mins replacing Bosh and Oneal.

RoyHalladay#32
07-04-2008, 04:06 PM
I believe that starting Bargs at SF would be great for the Raps. It would allow him to shoot more shots that he is comfortable with. We would be pretty impressive with a big lineup to.

ramz.n
07-04-2008, 04:17 PM
we all know Bargnani can score..a couple of games last season he scored 20+ points in the first quarter..very shocked..but as the game progressed he didn't get as much playing time due to foul trouble..and because of Smitch, and when he got a chance to play again he had already cooled off and it didnt help when Tj hogged the ball...

my goal for the upcoming season for Bargnani are...

1. stay out of foul trouble at the begining of game...you can't get 2 fouls in under a minute.
2. become a better defender, rebounder..intangibles
3. demand the ball..personally i think hes to quiet when hes on the floor.

if he can improve in these areas he will no doubt complete the big B.O.B

B2B
07-04-2008, 04:26 PM
I believe that starting Bargs at SF would be great for the Raps. It would allow him to shoot more shots that he is comfortable with. We would be pretty impressive with a big lineup to.

What's more big

Jawai at 280 7' plus wingspan at C (Strength,shot BLKing,Rebounding,Banging)
O'Neal at 260 ppg-14 rpg-8 blk-2 (Defence,shot BLKing,Rebounding)
Bosh at 230 ppg-22.3 rpg-9 blk-1 (Offence,Rebounding,Better defender than Bargs)

O'Neal at 260 ppg-14 rpg-8 blk-2 (Defence,shot BLKing,Rebounding)
Bosh at 230 ppg-22.3 rpg-9 blk-1 (Offence,Rebounding)
Bargs at 250 ppg-10 rpg-4 blk-.6 (Offence)

To me having a 250 pound 7 footer playing SF spells disaster on the defensive end (He's not mobile enough to guard SF's)

If you want to start Bargs he should start at PF

O'Neal
Bargs
Bosh

However with the size, strength & length of Jawai & O'Neal in the paint is just overwhelming exspecially on th defensive end add a more mobile Bosh to SF and that front court is deadly as Bosh would be able to stay with his man better than Bargs at 230 as apposed to 250. Even with Bosh being more mobile I'm still not certain he can contain faster SF's but it's a lineup I would love to see tried.

truRAPTORSfan
07-04-2008, 04:35 PM
y'all keep saying that he won't be good on the defense end but u forget the raps don't play d anyway and when they get on d they could play a 2-3 zone were Bargs d is not that big on a problem

The Wise 1
07-04-2008, 04:35 PM
For everyone on the Andrea at the 3 train. Can you please tell me what he would bring to that position? Because the way I see it, is that he would bring 3pt shooting and that's about it. His drives would be easier to stop since he would be trying to go around 3's instead of bigs. He's not magically going to learn how to post up smaller players and use his size to his advantage in one summer. Just look at Bosh, he still has problems with physical 3's and he has been in the league for 5 years who has played with his back to the basket his whole life. Playing him at the 3 would just cause him more problems since he would be guarded by players who are better at guarding his strengths.

Lets not talk about how he cant guard 3's either. All he's going to do is get Oneal and Bosh in foul trouble and not to mention himself. Just because we have a shot blocker doesnt mean he's going to block everything. Bigmen really cant stop complete blow bys every other possesion without putting themselves in foul trouble.

So if all he's going to bring to the table at the 3 spot is shooting, why not start the best shooter in the league? There's really no difference between the two besides the fact that Kapono moves better without the ball, has a better offensive IQ and is a way better shooter.

The Wise 1
07-04-2008, 04:42 PM
I believe that starting Bargs at SF would be great for the Raps. It would allow him to shoot more shots that he is comfortable with. We would be pretty impressive with a big lineup to.

All I saw him shoot last year were 3 point shots and him camping around the 3 point line. What is he more comfortable with and what would he be doing differently at the 3?

Honest Truth
07-04-2008, 06:05 PM
I'm a huge Bargnani fanand even I don't think there is any way he wins the 6th Man of the Year Award. No way. I think he will have a solid year average about 15-16 PPG, and 5-6 RPG (if all goes well).

Isn't Jawai 6'9"? He hasn't even played a game in the NBA yet so no way do I start him on this team, in this league this season. He played in Australia, hardly any real competition there. Let him play a bit and see if he can even be an adequate role player. I have my doubts on that as well.

ramz.n
07-04-2008, 06:24 PM
i don't think its impossible for him to play the 3..hes kina like Peja if you ask me..i think what effected him was when he put on weight last summer, it could have effected his mechanics and he just wasn't mentally tough...one thing i heard on the Fan 590 was that when Samuel Dalembert was asked about his body and how he suffered an injury from working out, trying to get bigger he said" theres nothing wrong so why fix it" i think people should lay off Barg about how he has to get bigger and put on more muscle..hopefully he has realized that putting on weight isnt helping his game and sticks to what he believes is best and be a better player next season

_Sn1P3r_
07-04-2008, 07:21 PM
He has potential to win sixth man of the year if he finally plays to his potential. I see him being our first option in our second string line-up so he should be able to get some shots up.

reevanson
07-05-2008, 02:03 AM
hahaha jawia starting? I will be suprized if he is in a Raptor uni next in the fall. Give him a year or 2 more

B2B
07-05-2008, 05:34 AM
hahaha jawia starting? I will be suprized if he is in a Raptor uni next in the fall. Give him a year or 2 more

Care to tell me what's so funny?.

Jawai starting is not brain surgery you're using his 6'10" 280 lbs 7'5" wingspan to alter shots and bang players with his offensive game consisting of putbacks. Me saying he can start is as legit as you saying he cannot. The ability is their, we don't need him to do much more than be physical in the paint exspecially with Bosh & O'Neal on the floor at the same time. For what it's worth without ever seeing him play a game I would rather him start than Bargs :eyebrow:.

The Wise 1
07-05-2008, 05:35 PM
So nobody wants to tell me there reason why they want Andrea at the 3?

Honest Truth
07-05-2008, 06:29 PM
Care to tell me what's so funny?.

Jawai starting is not brain surgery you're using his 6'10" 280 lbs 7'5" wingspan to alter shots and bang players with his offensive game consisting of putbacks. Me saying he can start is as legit as you saying he cannot. The ability is their, we don't need him to do much more than be physical in the paint exspecially with Bosh & O'Neal on the floor at the same time. For what it's worth without ever seeing him play a game I would rather him start than Bargs :eyebrow:.

Okay, that is what I see as funny. You would rather have a guy, who you have never seen, coming from a relatively weak Australian League start over a player who has two seasons in the NBA under his belt. Wow.

ramz.n
07-05-2008, 06:55 PM
could he possibly win most improved player?

The Wise 1
07-05-2008, 07:08 PM
For him to do that he would probably have to put up 18 and 7. I dont think he's going to put up those stats.

Beach Rock
07-05-2008, 09:23 PM
Bargs back at the 3 would def be an interesting thing to watch...but it involves different prep than he needs for getting better at the 5. Prep for BOTH involves bargs in the weightroom...don't confuse stronger for heavier. Bargs after a summer of intense weights and speed work could weigh less than 250 and be MUCH stronger than he is now. The kid has no definition and is soft...he needs more power...so he can move his feet quicker, jump higher, change direction faster, etc...I would love to see him trained for the 3 but the franchise has committed to putting him at 4/5 I think. The way the league rules are now it may serve us well to have 3 natural 4's rotating the 4/5. He's no 6 man yet though...or most improved but he'll have a good year. I hope.

Fion
07-05-2008, 09:47 PM
jawaii wont start bc our front court is bosh and oneil.

Bricklayer
07-06-2008, 10:33 AM
I'm usually not very critical of other people's suggestions and ideas but I'm completely baffled by some of the postings in this thread. One guy wondered if Jawai would start....moving Bosh to the 3. I don't even know where to start with this. Jawai is very raw, and is somewhat of a project, I don't know how you could have such high expectations of a player you have never seen play. Yeah, this guy might be huge, with a 7-3 wingspan, but that doesn't mean a whole lot if the guy can't play basketball. You know who else was very big, and was once broght in as a banger to clean up the glass for this team...Hoffa, how did that work out? Secondly, Bosh playing small forward is a brutal idea, Chris Bosh is so effective against other 4's because he is so quick he can drive around anyone. Match him up against guy's like Lebron and Butler etc. at the 3 spot and you have taken away his best weapon offensively, his speed. How is Chris Bosh going to defend a guy like Richard Jefferson. There is also a large group in favour of starting Bargnani at the 3. Did anybody watch this guy play last year? He couldn't defend any 4's and that is his natural position. How many times did we watch A.B get 2 quick fouls in the 1st quarter and take a seat on the bench, now all of a sudden Bargs is supposed to gaurd athletic wingmen? He would be embarrassed play after play. This is not N.B.A live on PS3, you can't just play everyone out of position and expect to compete in this league. Everone says "think of the match-up problems we would create if we went big" I'm sure Lebron is very worried about playing against 3 different 7 footers on the floor at one time, I thnk he would love the idea actually. While we are at it "let's go really BIG and start Jamario at the 2 spot and Kapono at point guard!!" Come on guys, I understand the optimism surrounding the up coming season with the addition of O'neal, but lets try to stay somewhat realistic, for the sake of making Raptors fans look uneducated on this site. one final thing...Bargs will not win sixth man of the year award, or any other award for that matter. He regressed in every way last year, and he looked sulked like a little kid on a time-out any time he was sent to the bench, which usually isn't a good sign from a guy who is trying to improve. Jamario or Kapono will start at the 3, not Bosh or Bargnani, it's just not happening.

star
07-06-2008, 10:46 AM
y'all keep saying that he won't be good on the defense end but u forget the raps don't play d anyway and when they get on d they could play a 2-3 zone were Bargs d is not that big on a problem

excellent point

star
07-06-2008, 10:50 AM
Ypou guys ever remeber when there were a bunch of coaches commenting on BARGS and ssaying that he is really talented and we were just using him wrong.

Correct me if im wrong ... but my understanding is that other coaches were suggesting he play SF and become a pure shooter and post the smaller SF .... i know he couldnt do it last year ... but maybe with some training and using the zone he could be a dominant SF


Think of it offensively .... he could shoot over most SFs. Also when they double bosh or oneil .... they have to leave PG (jose) SG (parker/kapono) or SF (bargs) .... and if they do ... these guys will drill 3s all night

Bricklayer
07-06-2008, 11:36 AM
Ypou guys ever remeber when there were a bunch of coaches commenting on BARGS and ssaying that he is really talented and we were just using him wrong.

Correct me if im wrong ... but my understanding is that other coaches were suggesting he play SF and become a pure shooter and post the smaller SF .... i know he couldnt do it last year ... but maybe with some training and using the zone he could be a dominant SF


Think of it offensively .... he could shoot over most SFs. Also when they double bosh or oneil .... they have to leave PG (jose) SG (parker/kapono) or SF (bargs) .... and if they do ... these guys will drill 3s all night

Bargnani was left open a lot last season, and he didn't light it up from long distance. I know it looks good offensively, but the Raptors are a good offensive team already, it's their defence that needs work. Bargnani would get lit up play after play, and his offence wouldn't justify his brutal defence. Who cares if he scores 18, if the guy he's guarding goes off for 26! It's like when Jalen was on the team, yeah the guy put up great offensive numbers, but he was getting out played night after night. Why bring in J.O to solidify your D, if your just going to ruin it again by putting Bargs at the 3?

B2B
07-06-2008, 12:19 PM
I'm usually not very critical of other people's suggestions and ideas but I'm completely baffled by some of the postings in this thread. One guy wondered if Jawai would start....moving Bosh to the 3. I don't even know where to start with this. Jawai is very raw, and is somewhat of a project, I don't know how you could have such high expectations of a player you have never seen play. Yeah, this guy might be huge, with a 7-3 wingspan, but that doesn't mean a whole lot if the guy can't play basketball. You know who else was very big, and was once broght in as a banger to clean up the glass for this team...Hoffa, how did that work out? Secondly, Bosh playing small forward is a brutal idea, Chris Bosh is so effective against other 4's because he is so quick he can drive around anyone. Match him up against guy's like Lebron and Butler etc. at the 3 spot and you have taken away his best weapon offensively, his speed. How is Chris Bosh going to defend a guy like Richard Jefferson. There is also a large group in favour of starting Bargnani at the 3. Did anybody watch this guy play last year? He couldn't defend any 4's and that is his natural position. How many times did we watch A.B get 2 quick fouls in the 1st quarter and take a seat on the bench, now all of a sudden Bargs is supposed to gaurd athletic wingmen? He would be embarrassed play after play. This is not N.B.A live on PS3, you can't just play everyone out of position and expect to compete in this league. Everone says "think of the match-up problems we would create if we went big" I'm sure Lebron is very worried about playing against 3 different 7 footers on the floor at one time, I thnk he would love the idea actually. While we are at it "let's go really BIG and start Jamario at the 2 spot and Kapono at point guard!!" Come on guys, I understand the optimism surrounding the up coming season with the addition of O'neal, but lets try to stay somewhat realistic, for the sake of making Raptors fans look uneducated on this site. one final thing...Bargs will not win sixth man of the year award, or any other award for that matter. He regressed in every way last year, and he looked sulked like a little kid on a time-out any time he was sent to the bench, which usually isn't a good sign from a guy who is trying to improve. Jamario or Kapono will start at the 3, not Bosh or Bargnani, it's just not happening.

Before I respond to this post I will say this I suggested last year that Moon should start in one thread prior to him actually starting and sure enough he ended up starting the entire year.

Why I do I refer to this?.

First of all Moon has no offensive game & his shot is mediocre at best but why did I know him starting would work?

We lacked athleticism Moon had that, we lacked a defensive wing Moon provided that with his energy, we lacked a blocking presence Moon avg a block a game. Moon's game is lacking but the skills he brought to the table were beneficial to our team without him being able to provide a solid all around game (Offence & being able to put the ball on the floor).

My thinking is similar to Jawai. We need toughness & Jawai's massive frame & attitude bring just that, we lack intimidation in the post Jawai brings that, we lack shot blocking & the ability to alter shots Jawai's agility & 7'5" wingspan would do that. (I've never seen him play so I don't know what his timing is like but I would assume his pressence alone would have an impact with us not requiring much offence out of him (By the way he does have a mid range jumper) with O'Neal & Bosh on the floor at the same time.

Long & short Jawai's game has not yet been defined but I can invision his size & presence as an instant impact without any doubt without ever seeing him play.

How much talent does it take to body people & be a physical presence?.

That is not high expectations, that's basic physical play allowing O'Neal & Bosh more freedom & less contact. If this was hockey Jawai would be an inforcer who's only role is to fight and his only requirement is the ability to skate.

By the way I didn't say he should start I just said I would like to see a lineup of those three together but I wouldn't mind him starting as long as he knows his role and plays it.

You know who else was very big, and was once broght in as a banger to clean up the glass for this team...Hoffa

Like you're having Hoffa nightmares, Jawai is not Hoffa not to say he will be definitely successfull but until you tried you'll never know, nothing tried nothing gained. What if he play's and fills that role perfectly isn't that why they scouted him?. Sure the risk of failure is their but nothing ventured is nothing gained as with my Moon comparison. Moon is lacking in many areas was a d-leaguer who none thought would ever see the floor but given a chance he proved otherwise. So I guess what I'm saying is that for the role I expect Jawai to play I have no problem putting him on the court & if he fails it was ventured not gained so what, he goes back to the bench.

Bosh playing small forward is a brutal idea, Chris Bosh is so effective against other 4's because he is so quick he can drive around anyone.

It's a better Idea than playing Bargs at SF. With O'Neal playing PF we would still have an adv. Yes Bosh's speed is the reason why he's effective against PF's but against SF's it would be his height that makes him effective being able to hit his jumper with range to the 3 point line remember this is not the past where if we play Bosh at the 3 who's playing PF. With O'Neal comanding double teams from the post Bosh's jumper would be deadly. This is not the past where players can leave the post player to guard Bosh at the 3 spot, O'Neal brings a different dimension to this scenario being able to command double teams. Couple that witht the monster Jawai in the middle looking to try and put back anything that falls to him & :drool: sure it may not work but I like the possibilities that this scenario brings & think it's worth atleast a shot.

The other point with Bosh playing SF of course you need to find you're matchups as you mentioned. Bosh can't guard some SF's so you change the lineup & utilize it against players Bosh can contain.

Bosh at SF > Bargnani at SF

gbus
07-06-2008, 12:57 PM
It's a better Idea than playing Bargs at SF. With O'Neal playing PF we would still have an adv. Yes Bosh's speed is the reason why he's effective against PF's but against SF's it would be his height that makes him effective being able to hit his jumper with range to the 3 point line remember this is not the past where if we play Bosh at the 3 who's playing PF. With O'Neal comanding double teams from the post Bosh's jumper would be deadly. This is not the past where players can leave the post player to guard Bosh at the 3 spot, O'Neal brings a different dimension to this scenario being able to command double teams. Couple that witht the monster Jawai in the middle looking to try and put back anything that falls to him & :drool: sure it may not work but I like the possibilities that this scenario brings & think it's worth atleast a shot.

The other point with Bosh playing SF of course you need to find you're matchups as you mentioned. Bosh can't guard some SF's so you change the lineup & utilize it against players Bosh can contain.

Bosh at SF > Bargnani at SF

Just because you think putting Bosh at SF would be better than putting Bargs there doesn't make it a good idea. Bricklayer is 100% correct, Bosh's speed is what makes him great. It's what gets him to the foul line so much among other things. Turning him into a guy who can shoot over SF's, we wouldnt be utilizing his vast array of talents.

B2B
07-06-2008, 01:13 PM
Just because you think putting Bosh at SF would be better than putting Bargs there doesn't make it a good idea. Bricklayer is 100% correct, Bosh's speed is what makes him great. It's what gets him to the foul line so much among other things. Turning him into a guy who can shoot over SF's, we wouldnt be utilizing his vast array of talents.

I don't think just because putting Bosh at SF is a better idea than Bargs makes it a good Idea I'm just stating a fact because Bosh is quicker than Bargs allowing him to guard the quicker players, sure there will be players Bosh can't guard at the SF spot but I'm also sure there r some players he can abuse as well.

In my post reasons why I like this possible lineup

- Jawai without much experience can bring Toughness & Intimidation things we know he posesses without trial, much like Moon & his athleticism.

- With O'Neal playing PF he commands double teams as well as Bosh so we don't lose an adv at PF, although Bosh's quickness is an adv for him at this position.

- Bosh loses his speed adv at this position but with his hight adv and ability to hit his jumpers from just about anywhere at a high % still a huge threat, especially with O'Neal commanding attention in the post. O'Neal is the dimension that makes Bosh at SF a possibility & a threat.

Thanks for narrowing my entire reasoning to Bosh is > than Bargs.

gbus
07-06-2008, 01:24 PM
- Jawai without much experience can bring Toughness & Intimidation things we know he posesses without trial, much like Moon & his athleticism.

Didn't we bring O'Neal in to add toughness and intimidation in the middle? 2+ blocks a game doesn't equal initimidation in the middle?


Thanks for narrowing my entire reasoning to Bosh is > than Bargs.

Well that was only my first sentence. My post had four senteces in it.

B2B
07-06-2008, 01:34 PM
Didn't we bring O'Neal in to add toughness and intimidation in the middle? 2+ blocks a game doesn't equal initimidation in the middle?



Well that was only my first sentence. My post had four senteces in it.

It may have been you're first sentence but it suggests that it was my whole reasoning, which it was not.

I can understand how you would tend to agree with Bricklayer, conventional thinking and playing safe doesn't apply to me.

The way I think and opperate is that I open a wide range of possibilties by allowing myself to think larger than the situation calls for and let error and learning close the doors I open with my train of thought.

You know like when you're a kid your mom say you can be anything you want to be. Well I'm pretty sure the success rate on that is pretty low but without opening that realm of possibility you reduce the chances of it being true even more because you don't allow yourself the option.

What I'm trying to say is if it's never tried how can you tell me it won't be successfull?. I'm not gonna sit here and say it's going to be but I would like to see it tried before I call it a failure.

gbus
07-06-2008, 01:53 PM
It may have been you're first sentence but it suggests that it was my whole reasoning, which it was not.

I can understand how you would tend to agree with Bricklayer, conventional thinking and playing safe doesn't apply to me.

The way I think and opperate is that I open a wide range of possibilties by allowing myself to think larger than the situation calls for and let error and learning close the doors I open with my train of thought.

You know like when you're a kid your mom say you can be anything you want to be. Well I'm pretty sure the success rate on that is pretty low but without opening that realm of possibility you reduce the chances of it being true even more because you don't allow yourself the option.

What I'm trying to say is if it's never tried how can you tell me it won't be successfull?. I'm not gonna sit here and say it's going to be but I would like to see it tried before I call it a failure.

I completely understand what you're saying, unconventional thinking is why Bryan Colangelo has had the success he's had in the NBA. The thing is though, putting together a starting lineup isn't a puzzle, it's a way to maximize the talents of each of the 5 guys on the floor. I don't see the logic of turning Bosh into a jumpshooter. Why not start Kapono at SF then if you want a shooter there? He's not 6'11'', but he can get his shot off much faster than Bosh can so they have similar advantages shooting jumpers.

B2B
07-06-2008, 01:59 PM
For my proposed lineup I have a comparison for you

Lakers - Raptors

Bynum - Jawai
Gasol - O'Neal
Odom - Bosh

Bynum has had more training & seasoning than Jawai but their assets r similar both big bodies in the post.

Gasol - Finess PF, versatile but weak. O'Neal is a true PF he plays defence & is physical. In the definition of PF defence is the main purpose of a PF.

Odom - I don't know about you guys but I think Bosh is quicker & more veratile than him yet Odom succeeds at this position.

Where do I see the problem with Bosh playing SF?. My first thought would be comparing Jackson to Mitchell and the defensive system they implement & run as I don't see Odom being better than Bosh at SF.

A SF's primary role is to score and get to the line something Bosh does well.

B2B
07-06-2008, 02:01 PM
I completely understand what you're saying, unconventional thinking is why Bryan Colangelo has had the success he's had in the NBA. The thing is though, putting together a starting lineup isn't a puzzle, it's a way to maximize the talents of each of the 5 guys on the floor. I don't see the logic of turning Bosh into a jumpshooter. Why not start Kapono at SF then if you want a shooter there? He's not 6'11'', but he can get his shot off much faster than Bosh can so they have similar advantages shooting jumpers.

I don't think I explained myself properly. Having him turn into a jumpshooter is not what I'm proposing. It's the adv he would have being taller than his counterpart but I still want him to drive & get to the line.

B2B
07-06-2008, 02:28 PM
Definition of PF - Basketball that one of the two forwards whose function is primarily defensive and who is therefore usually the stronger and larger

Under this definition (O'Neal)

Definition of SF - Basketball that one of the two forwards whose function is primarily to score and who is therefore usually quicker and more agile

Under this definition (Bosh)

As you say O'neal was brought in for his defence, rebounding & strength which is the defined role of a PF

Bosh is our leading scorer he's versatile & quick sure it gives him an advantage over some power forwards but we've also seen stronger PF's abuse him (Boozer,Wallace,Duncan etc...) When he can use his speed against some PF's we play O'Neal at Centre and Play Bosh at PF. When we play against PF's who can physically out play Bosh we go with O'Neal at PF & Bosh at SF. It's the same concept that there r SF's who r quicker than Bosh there will be some he can abuse, this would be up to Sam's recognition of matchups & our defensive structure.

gbus
07-06-2008, 03:36 PM
For my proposed lineup I have a comparison for you

Lakers - Raptors

Bynum - Jawai
Gasol - O'Neal
Odom - Bosh

Bynum has had more training & seasoning than Jawai but their assets r similar both big bodies in the post.

Gasol - Finess PF, versatile but weak. O'Neal is a true PF he plays defence & is physical. In the definition of PF defence is the main purpose of a PF.

Odom - I don't know about you guys but I think Bosh is quicker & more veratile than him yet Odom succeeds at this position.

Where do I see the problem with Bosh playing SF?. My first thought would be comparing Jackson to Mitchell and the defensive system they implement & run as I don't see Odom being better than Bosh at SF.

A SF's primary role is to score and get to the line something Bosh does well.

The three on the lakers you mentioned have never played together and i'd be willing to bet that they won't next season, i think Odom is going to be traded. There have been rumours to that effect anyways. Phil Jackson likes a guy who shoot the 3 to play the SF position, thats why Radmonovic started, even though he was just horrible for them. Odom played power forward last year, and put up power forward type numbers. Until the NBA finals where him and Gasol didn't show up, Odom proved that he may very well be better suited to play the PF position. Why? Because he's quicker than other power forwards. Atleast in PJ's system in LA, i think Odom is infact better suited to the power forward position.


Definition of PF - Basketball that one of the two forwards whose function is primarily defensive and who is therefore usually the stronger and larger

Under this definition (O'Neal)

Definition of SF - Basketball that one of the two forwards whose function is primarily to score and who is therefore usually quicker and more agile

Under this definition (Bosh)

As you say O'neal was brought in for his defence, rebounding & strength which is the defined role of a PF.

Alright, now i honestly don't know where you're coming from, you're completely contradicting yourself. First, you're talking about how you like to think unconventionally and how you're not the type to "play it safe", but then you go here and post the traditional definitions of the two forward positions.

The Wise 1
07-06-2008, 03:56 PM
So nobody wants to tell me there reason why they want Andrea at the 3?.

B2B
07-06-2008, 04:17 PM
The three on the lakers you mentioned have never played together and i'd be willing to bet that they won't next season, i think Odom is going to be traded. There have been rumours to that effect anyways. Phil Jackson likes a guy who shoot the 3 to play the SF position, thats why Radmonovic started, even though he was just horrible for them. Odom played power forward last year, and put up power forward type numbers. Until the NBA finals where him and Gasol didn't show up, Odom proved that he may very well be better suited to play the PF position. Why? Because he's quicker than other power forwards. Atleast in PJ's system in LA, i think Odom is infact better suited to the power forward position.



Alright, now i honestly don't know where you're coming from, you're completely contradicting yourself. First, you're talking about how you like to think unconventionally and how you're not the type to "play it safe", but then you go here and post the traditional definitions of the two forward positions.

Although they never played together Gasol was brought in with the principle of that being the lineup but it doesn't matter my point was Odom played SF and has had success to which my point is if Odom can play SF why Bosh cannot as I think he is more versatile.

You think both Bosh & Odom r better suited for the PF spot I'm not arguing that

I think Jawai could hold his own at centre because of his size & strength
I think O'Neal fits the PF role more than being a Centre
Bosh's Speed gives him an adv at the PF spot but it also allows him to play the 3 which in turn would allow all three of these monsters on at the same time. I'm not debating that Bosh isn't better suited for the PF role I'm saying his versatility would allow us to play very big and that it's intriguing to me.

As for my way of thinking, just because I don't always think conventionally to allow options doesn't mean I don't consider the conventional aspect of it because that train of thought is the difference between unconventional thinking and LaLa land. To be totally unconventional with out logic is the difference between free thinking and total lunacy.

argo
07-06-2008, 04:29 PM
i hope bosh and oneal get on barg's *** and make him play d and rebound.
and i hope bargs is working on his game this summer.

had high hopes for joey g too, but that never panned out.

we'll see.

Bricklayer
07-06-2008, 06:24 PM
When you compare the lakers frontcourt, to Bosh-Jawai-O'neal, you are forgetting something very important. Nobody on the Lakers is being asked to play out of position Bynum is a 5, Gasol is a 4 and Odom is a 3....naturally.
When you put 3 bigs on the floor with the raps, you are asking your franchise player to play out of his comfort zone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, Bosh is a dominant power forward, lets keep it that way. The Raps are going to be so much better on both ends of the floor already, essentially Rasho is out of the starting 5 and J.O is in, who is a huge improvement. J.O will do everything at the 5 that you would like to see out of Jawai. You also mentioned the fact that you predicted Jamario starting last year, and then you listed the reasons why he would start. What changes this year? Why Jawai as opposed to Moon? If you think too far outside the box with your line-up you start taking steps backwards. I say, Let your best players play at their natural spot and watch them gel, no need to play Bargs or Bosh at the 3 you would lose far too much defensively.

B2B
07-07-2008, 07:29 AM
When you compare the lakers frontcourt, to Bosh-Jawai-O'neal, you are forgetting something very important. Nobody on the Lakers is being asked to play out of position Bynum is a 5, Gasol is a 4 and Odom is a 3....naturally.
When you put 3 bigs on the floor with the raps, you are asking your franchise player to play out of his comfort zone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, Bosh is a dominant power forward, lets keep it that way. The Raps are going to be so much better on both ends of the floor already, essentially Rasho is out of the starting 5 and J.O is in, who is a huge improvement. J.O will do everything at the 5 that you would like to see out of Jawai. You also mentioned the fact that you predicted Jamario starting last year, and then you listed the reasons why he would start. What changes this year? Why Jawai as opposed to Moon? If you think too far outside the box with your line-up you start taking steps backwards. I say, Let your best players play at their natural spot and watch them gel, no need to play Bargs or Bosh at the 3 you would lose far too much defensively.

This is how I view our players

Jawai = Centre
O'Neal = PF/C
Bosh = SF/PF

Definition of a SF
: a basketball forward who is usually smaller than a power forward and whose play is characterized by quickness and scoring ability

Bosh is able to utilize his quickness against some PF's but I've also seen the tougher PF's Like Boozer,Wallace, Duncan etc.. own Bosh because he's just not strong enough despite his speed adv.

Similar to the SF spot Bosh is not quick enough to guard some 3's Lebron, jefferson, PP etc... but against some SF's his size would give him an adv. We just do it according to matchups.

Against Utah

Okur-------Jawai
Boozer-----O'Neal
Kirelenko---Bosh

Against LA

Bynum-----Jawai
Gasol------O'Neal
Odom------Bosh

Against Boston

Perkins-----O'Neal
Garnett-----Bosh
PP----------Moon

Against Chicago

Noah-------O'Neal
Gooden-----Bosh
Deng-------Moon


Like Gbus mentioned in his post Gasol played Centre & Odom played PF. You're telling me that Odom is a natural SF, Gbus said much like Bosh he was more effective as a PF, not that I disagree but what I'm saying is that if Odom can play SF then so can Bosh even if he's more effective at PF

What I'm suggesting is with the right matchups & defensive scheme we can get away with playing Bosh at the 3 for a larger lineup. I used LA to compare Bosh with Odom as I see them both as (SF/PF) players. Their speed,verstility & ability to score allows them to play SF and their height,size & rebounding ability allow them to play PF. To me they r both hybrid (SF/PF) I happen to think Bosh is also quicker & more versatile than Odom so I do see him with the ability to play SF.

I remember coach K from the US team saying Bosh has the speed & ability to guard anywhere from the 2 to the 5 spot. I don't know if he was just talking out of his *** but I also think Bosh is quick enough, maybe not the 2 but definitely the 3 spot.

What changes this year? Why Jawai as opposed to Moon? If you think too far outside the box with your line-up you start taking steps backwards.

Nothing, I still expect Moon to start games but like the matchups I listed above I wouldn't mind seeing Bosh on some of the 3's in this league.

reevanson
07-07-2008, 08:32 AM
Care to tell me what's so funny?.

Jawai starting is not brain surgery you're using his 6'10" 280 lbs 7'5" wingspan to alter shots and bang players with his offensive game consisting of putbacks. Me saying he can start is as legit as you saying he cannot. The ability is their, we don't need him to do much more than be physical in the paint exspecially with Bosh & O'Neal on the floor at the same time. For what it's worth without ever seeing him play a game I would rather him start than Bargs :eyebrow:.

Just because a dude has a big wingspan does not translate into NBA greatness. How can you say that the ability is there when he is a virtual unknown outside Australia, which last time i checked was not a Mecca for basketball greatness. And to say you would like to see him start over Bargs is funny to have a unknown dude start over a guy who averaged resonable numbers in the NBA. I know Bargs is not amazing but to have Jawai(Who I am sure you had never heard of before draft night) start over him IMO is a bad decision.

B2B
07-07-2008, 09:19 AM
Just because a dude has a big wingspan does not translate into NBA greatness. How can you say that the ability is there when he is a virtual unknown outside Australia, which last time i checked was not a Mecca for basketball greatness. And to say you would like to see him start over Bargs is funny to have a unknown dude start over a guy who averaged resonable numbers in the NBA. I know Bargs is not amazing but to have Jawai(Who I am sure you had never heard of before draft night) start over him IMO is a bad decision.

I know Bargs is not amazing but to have Jawai(Who I am sure you had never heard of before draft night) start over him IMO is a bad decision

Actually reevanson I had us selcting Jawai at 41 and knew he was going to be a Rap when we made the O'Neal trade and if you don't believe that look up my posts prior to the draft. I will admit my knowledge of him is slim though.

My post was a comparison of why I knew Moon could start and why I know Jawai can also. It wasn't their basketball ability it was Moon's athleticism & Jawai's size & strength.

We lacked athleticism, Moon had that, we lacked a defensive wing Moon provided that with his energy, we lacked a blocking presence Moon avg a block a game with his leaping ability. Moon's game is lacking but the athleticism he brought to the table were beneficial to our team without him being able to provide a solid all around game (Offence & being able to put the ball on the floor).

My thinking is similar to Jawai. We need toughness & Jawai's massive frame & attitude bring just that, we lack intimidation in the post Jawai size & strength brings that, we lack shot blocking & the ability to alter shots Jawai's agility & 7'5" wingspan could do that. (I've never seen him play so I don't know what his timing is like but I would assume his pressence alone would have an impact with us not requiring much offence out of him (By the way he does have a mid range jumper) with O'Neal & Bosh on the floor at the same time.

I'm not looking for Jawai to be the next dream, all I want out of him is to use his size & length for intimidation.

How much talent does it take to body people & be a physical presence?.

That is not high expectations, that's basic physical play allowing O'Neal & Bosh more freedom & less contact. If this was hockey Jawai would be an inforcer who's only role is to fight with his only requirement the ability to skate.

And to say you would like to see him start over Bargs is funny to have a unknown dude start over a guy who averaged resonable numbers in the NBA.


Did you not see Bargs play last year?. I'm not saying he won't or can't improve but his strength is his ability to shoot & last year he couldn't even do that.

As for Jawai what he brings to the table is size,length & intimidation & unlike shooting those traits will never leave him he will always posess the size,strength & intimidation because it's his physical makeup & not an ability. If he has ability to go with his makeup, well that's just a plus.

Like I also said, this is not a certainty there is always the chance of him not working out but I think he could work because it's not his ability that I'm considering it's his physical makeup.

Bramaca
07-07-2008, 09:31 AM
Like Gbus mentioned in his post Gasol played Centre & Odom played PF. You're telling me that Odom is a natural SF, Gbus said much like Bosh he was more effective as a PF, not that I disagree but what I'm saying is that if Odom can play SF then so can Bosh even if he's more effective at PF

Odom has very good ball handling for somebody his size, Bosh on the other hand doesn't. Bosh is good for 1 or 2 dribbles but any more then that and its usually a turnover. Having Bosh drive from behind the 3 pt line would not be a good idea, leave him where he is.

B2B
07-07-2008, 09:42 AM
Odom has very good ball handling for somebody his size, Bosh on the other hand doesn't. Bosh is good for 1 or 2 dribbles but any more then that and its usually a turnover. Having Bosh drive from behind the 3 pt line would not be a good idea, leave him where he is.

Why do you have Bosh driving from behind the arc?.

His offence doesn't have to change, I expect him to be posting the smaller player up from 18 feet using his length & athleticism allowing him to drive as he normally does only difference is he will be using his length & not his speed to his adv. The only thing to me in ? is if he is quick enough to guard the 3.

Bramaca
07-07-2008, 10:16 AM
Why do you have Bosh driving from behind the arc?.

His offence doesn't have to change, I expect him to be posting the smaller player up from 18 feet using his length & athleticism allowing him to drive as he normally does only difference is he will be using his length & not his speed to his adv. The only thing to me in ? is if he is quick enough to guard the 3.

If his offense doesn't change then he is still playing the pf position on offense, so then there is Bosh, JO, and Jawai all around the key or JO or Jawai are out on the perimeter. Either situation is not very good, one situation there isn't enough room to move in the paint and the other would have a player who is completely useless on the perimeter. So the only difference would be that Bosh would be guarding the 3 position which I highly doubt he would be very good at. So what is the advantage of having Bosh at the 3 again?

B2B
07-07-2008, 10:40 AM
If his offense doesn't change then he is still playing the pf position on offense, so then there is Bosh, JO, and Jawai all around the key or JO or Jawai are out on the perimeter. Either situation is not very good, one situation there isn't enough room to move in the paint and the other would have a player who is completely useless on the perimeter. So the only difference would be that Bosh would be guarding the 3 position which I highly doubt he would be very good at. So what is the advantage of having Bosh at the 3 again?

So you think Jamario was spreading the floor being the threat he was from the arc **** man people were giving him that shot & protecting the paint. You say Bosh can dribble only 2 times before turning the ball over well Moon can't even dribble yet we managed to have him on the floor. Depending on the matchups we're working Bosh can hit the 3 but idealy we don't want that Both he & O'Neal can hit the 22 footer with consistency, Bosh with the higher % so they can draw players away from the key if need be.

Bosh shoots better than Moon so players can't cheat off of him.

Adv of having all three on the floor

On offence

-Offensive rebounds
-size & strength

On defence

-All three can block shots
-O'Neal is tough defensively
-Bosh is a good weakside defender
-Jawai is intimidation in the middle supposedly also a good defender. Time will tell.

I can't explain it to you but trust me with the proper direction the paint would never be cloged because you're rotating O'Neal & Bosh with Jawai the main constant cleaning up the garbage but with atleast 2 of them always close to the basket I see our offensive board totals & put backs going up. I see this resulting in single coverage for either Bosh or O'neal that's the adv.

B2B
07-07-2008, 10:44 AM
Getting to know Jawai:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpJszNGHjNA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYOpmxWZL0g&feature=related

Bramaca
07-07-2008, 11:11 AM
So you think Jamario was spreading the floor being the threat he was from the arc **** man people were giving him that shot & protecting the paint. You say Bosh can dribble only 2 times before turning the ball over well Moon can't even dribble yet we managed to have him on the floor. Depending on the matchups we're working Bosh can hit the 3 but idealy we don't want that Both he & O'Neal can hit the 22 footer with consistency, Bosh with the higher % so they can draw players away from the key if need be.

Bosh shoots better than Moon so players can't cheat off of him.

Bosh is not really a better shooter than Moon. Moon shot .484 mostly from the perimeter and .328 from 3 while Bosh shot .494 mostly from near the paint and .400 from 3 on only 25 shots (he is a career .309 from 3) so I don't see Bosh being a big upgrade at the perimeter shooting. You say that Moon can't even dribble, I'll say that you put Bosh at the 3 and watch him try to drive against NBA 3's guarding him and you'll be saying the same thing about him.


Adv of having all three on the floor

On offence

-Offensive rebounds
-size & strength

On defence

-All three can block shots
-O'Neal is tough defensively
-Bosh is a good weakside defender
-Jawai is intimidation in the middle supposedly also a good defender. Time will tell.

On offense I don't think that Jawai/JO/Bosh would give you many more offensive rebounds then JO/Bosh/Moon

On defense

-Moon can block shots just as well as Bosh from the 3 position (no advantage)
-O'neal is tough defensively but he is going to be on the court anyways (no difference)
- Bosh is an average weakside defender but since he would be playing more on the perimeter wouldn't be there as much.
- Jawai just may be an intimidator but not really any more so than JO. He would be better served coming off the bench doing that since if he is starting then the Raps only 2 bigs off the bench (Hump and Bargs)


I can't explain it to you but trust me with the proper direction the paint would never be cloged because you're rotating O'Neal & Bosh with Jawai the main constant cleaning up the garbage but with atleast 2 of them always close to the basket I see our offensive board totals & put backs going up. I see this resulting in single coverage for either Bosh or O'neal that's the adv.

I can explain to you that putting Jawai out there with Bosh and O'Neal would be overkill and would be redundant. And while boards may go up, turnovers would most definently go up. Bosh or O'neal will be getting single coverage without Jawai on the floor.

RapsFan4Life
07-07-2008, 11:21 AM
the only reason BC didnt trade andrea is because if he blows up on another team raptor fans will hate Bryan, and for everyone saying CB4 should play SF .... FORGET IT ! why should a proven STAR and hard worker sacrifice his most Dominant position for some punk! .. yeah i said it, an un confident raw shot taker, not a shooter, a shot taker, cuz bargs cant sink any thing, he can barley keep his hands on the ball... im disapointed at what he has given to my team, and for Oneal, i think he is lazy and wont put the fire in the team, the fire Raptors ever so despretly need, if he can grab 10 rebounds a game it will take alot of pressure off CB and that means .... MORE POINTS FROM OUR ALL STAR !!!

B2B
07-07-2008, 11:22 AM
Bosh is not really a better shooter than Moon. Moon shot .484 mostly from the perimeter and .328 from 3 while Bosh shot .494 mostly from near the paint and .400 from 3 on only 25 shots (he is a career .309 from 3) so I don't see Bosh being a big upgrade at the perimeter shooting. You say that Moon can't even dribble, I'll say that you put Bosh at the 3 and watch him try to drive against NBA 3's guarding him and you'll be saying the same thing about him.



On offense I don't think that Jawai/JO/Bosh would give you many more offensive rebounds then JO/Bosh/Moon

On defense

-Moon can block shots just as well as Bosh from the 3 position (no advantage)
-O'neal is tough defensively but he is going to be on the court anyways (no difference)
- Bosh is an average weakside defender but since he would be playing more on the perimeter wouldn't be there as much.
- Jawai just may be an intimidator but not really any more so than JO. He would be better served coming off the bench doing that since if he is starting then the Raps only 2 bigs off the bench (Hump and Bargs)



I can explain to you that putting Jawai out there with Bosh and O'Neal would be overkill and would be redundant. And while boards may go up, turnovers would most definently go up. Bosh or O'neal will be getting single coverage without Jawai on the floor.

Have you seen Bosh play the 3?. You're talking as though you have.

I haven't but I would love to see this tried despite the good argument you posted.

Bob_at_york
07-07-2008, 11:31 AM
Have you seen Bosh play the 3?. You're talking as though you have.

I haven't but I would love to see this tried despite the good argument you posted.

I have seen him do it on defence. They went to a zone and he played the top just like Garbo use to.

B2B
07-07-2008, 11:36 AM
I have seen him do it on defence. They went to a zone and he played the top just like Garbo use to.

How did he fair?. & who was he guarding if you remember?.

Bob_at_york
07-07-2008, 11:37 AM
How did he fair?. & who was he guarding if you remember?.

I can't remember that much. I know he didn't do as well as Garbo did only because that is what I was comparing him to when I noticed it.

B2B
07-07-2008, 11:42 AM
I can't remember that much. I know he didn't do as well as Garbo did only because that is what I was comparing him to when I noticed it.

The thing is when Garbajosa was playing the 3 he had Bosh at the 4 which would effect how the 3 spot was guarded as I'm assuming Bosh played the 3 because of Bargs playing the 4!

Under my Idea Bosh will take that position but insted of Bargs backing him up we have O'Neal at the 4 who's a good man defender & commands a double team on offence. I think it would have an effect on the outcome. Couple that with Jawai possibly being an intimidation factor cloging the lane and all of a sudden Raps don't have a hole in the middle anymore. ENTER AT YOU'RE OWN RISK.

B2B
07-07-2008, 11:48 AM
This is what I expect from Jawai:

In the 1991-1992 NCAA basketball season, one of college’s hottest teams was the Arkansas Razorbacks of the SEC. With guys like Todd Day and Lee Mayberry sniping from the outside, Oliver Miller held down the middle, and averaged around 15-16ppg. In the summer of 1992 (arguably one of the greatest drafts ever) Oliver put his name out there and got picked up by the Charles Barkley-edition Phoenix Suns.

As a rookie, Oliver was short, but took up space, clogging the lane on defense and being Chuck’s bodyguard on offense en route to the Finals. Barkley (a guy who conquered weight issues himself) took Miller under his wing, and the young rook finished his first season leading the Suns in blocks. Oliver was never a scoring option in the desert, but he hustled and got the job done, despite always hovering near the 300lb mark.

The only difference is Jawai is more fit & agile.

pebloemer
07-07-2008, 12:42 PM
This is what I expect from Jawai:

In the 1991-1992 NCAA basketball season, one of college’s hottest teams was the Arkansas Razorbacks of the SEC. With guys like Todd Day and Lee Mayberry sniping from the outside, Oliver Miller held down the middle, and averaged around 15-16ppg. In the summer of 1992 (arguably one of the greatest drafts ever) Oliver put his name out there and got picked up by the Charles Barkley-edition Phoenix Suns.

As a rookie, Oliver was short, but took up space, clogging the lane on defense and being Chuck’s bodyguard on offense en route to the Finals. Barkley (a guy who conquered weight issues himself) took Miller under his wing, and the young rook finished his first season leading the Suns in blocks. Oliver was never a scoring option in the desert, but he hustled and got the job done, despite always hovering near the 300lb mark.

The only difference is Jawai is more fit & agile.

I am very interested to see how his games translates to the NBA - I expect his offense will take some time with bigger stronger defenders on him

Bricklayer
07-07-2008, 03:49 PM
B2B, at first I though you were simply playing devil's advocate on the idea of Bosh starting at the 3, for the sake of a good natured debate...but I'm starting to think you are actually serious about moving CB4 to SF.

I have read your posts in the past and you seem to have a great knowledge of the game of basketball, that's why I am so puzzled with this suggestion. Bosh is one of the best PF's in the game, why would we move him to a new position? Do you think he can improve his numbers their? Not a chance! Bosh will have trouble guarding opposing 3's, and that will relate in having Bosh on the bench with foul trouble. How is this beneficial in any way? Bosh is faster then other 4's, but slower then most 3's, so it will negatively effect his ability to drive, which is his bread and butter. Maybe we will have to aggree to disagree, but I can't possibly understand your reteric on why Bosh should slide to the 3, it just seems ubsurd to me.

B2B
07-07-2008, 06:29 PM
B2B, at first I though you were simply playing devil's advocate on the idea of Bosh starting at the 3, for the sake of a good natured debate...but I'm starting to think you are actually serious about moving CB4 to SF.

I have read your posts in the past and you seem to have a great knowledge of the game of basketball, that's why I am so puzzled with this suggestion. Bosh is one of the best PF's in the game, why would we move him to a new position? Do you think he can improve his numbers their? Not a chance! Bosh will have trouble guarding opposing 3's, and that will relate in having Bosh on the bench with foul trouble. How is this beneficial in any way? Bosh is faster then other 4's, but slower then most 3's, so it will negatively effect his ability to drive, which is his bread and butter. Maybe we will have to aggree to disagree, but I can't possibly understand your reteric on why Bosh should slide to the 3, it just seems ubsurd to me.

It's not something I can easily explain.

I agree with what you guys r saying about Bosh don't get me wrong it makes complete sense.

I just personally like to see it tried before I call it a failure

It's nothing more than me being intrigued by having those three big bodies out at the same time being a player myself my gut tells me it might just work because of all three of their individaul abilities.

Jawai - Banger
O'Neal - Defensive PF who can block shots
Bosh - Offensive big who's also capable of grabbing boards but is quick enough to guard the 3 spot

They each bring a different dimension to the lineup.

Though Bosh's game may suffer moving him to the 3 I think it would have an overall better impact on the teams success. It's more of a gut feeling than a common sense thing. I think of all their individual abilities and try to imagine them together and just feel like it would work.

Sorry, I can't argue a gut feeling.

I like to try things before I determine it to be a failure.

I just want to add one last thing.

You know Bosh is a great PF that's not in ? You say you know that his game wouldn't translate to SF I won't argue that. What I will ask you is how do you know that?. Not because it's been tested and tried and so far to date he's proven PF is his position & not SF.

Problem is it's been tested with

{Rasho,Bargs,Bosh}

I want to test it with

{Jawai,O'Neal,Bosh}

If it doesn't work what's the loss you tried something to better the team revert back if it doesn't work.

aman_13
06-01-2018, 01:49 PM
Let's take a trip down memory lane.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-01-2018, 02:03 PM
I was on the Barg wagon for a long time lol.

aman_13
06-01-2018, 02:09 PM
I was on the Barg wagon for a long time lol.

I don't know if I should keep digging. This is kind of sad lol

The Wise 1
06-02-2018, 06:05 AM
These are gold.

The only thing Andrea led the league in was excuses for why he was struggling or why he would succeed with different strategies.

FlakeyFool
06-02-2018, 12:35 PM
Jawai turned out great

killersweet
06-02-2018, 12:48 PM
Jawai turned out great
B2B was all over him

aman_13
06-02-2018, 01:18 PM
Wasn't he compared to Shaq or someone lol

Jamiecballer
06-02-2018, 03:56 PM
Wasn't he compared to Shaq or someone lolyes but the key was "the Australian Shaq"

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Raps08-09 Champ
06-02-2018, 04:10 PM
yes but the key was "the Australian Shaq"

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Reminds me of the Brazilian Kevin Durant

FlakeyFool
06-02-2018, 04:10 PM
B2B was all over him

He seemed like a good poster at the time..

killersweet
06-03-2018, 07:38 AM
He seemed like a good poster at the time..
He was. He had pretty good handle on prospects. But sometimes people get overzealous about certain ones.

Sadds The Gr8
06-03-2018, 01:57 PM
B2B was all over him

he had me so hyped for Jonas

aman_13
06-03-2018, 09:18 PM
He was. He had pretty good handle on prospects. But sometimes people get overzealous about certain ones.

Like MKG.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-03-2018, 11:30 PM
he had me so hyped for Jonas

The NBA played a slower pace back then so he coulda fit bwtter. Guys like Hibbert and al Jeff were the best bigs during that time. Biggest problem with JV wouldnt jave been as apparent back then probably so it made him a more intriguing prospect.

Sadds The Gr8
06-04-2018, 12:03 AM
The NBA played a slower pace back then so he coulda fit bwtter. Guys like Hibbert and al Jeff were the best bigs during that time. Biggest problem with JV wouldnt jave been as apparent back then probably so it made him a more intriguing prospect.

the way B2B explained it to us made it seem like his game would be suited better in today's game than 4-5 yrs ago. I expected an energy big that just rebounded and played defense. He was more skilled than I thought, but worse on defense than i thought.

I thought we were getting more of a Chandler type but we got more of a Gortat type.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-04-2018, 12:24 AM
the way B2B explained it to us made it seem like his game would be suited better in today's game than 4-5 yrs ago. I expected an energy big that just rebounded and played defense. He was more skilled than I thought, but worse on defense than i thought.

I thought we were getting more of a Chandler type but we got more of a Gortat type.

He was pretty mobile when he came in. I was kinda hoping for those pau gasol comparisons to come through

Byronicle
06-05-2018, 12:35 PM
That's because Raptors take the same stupid approach when developing their big men. Both Bargnani and Jonas were encouraged to put on weight after their rookie season. Problem is that the game was evolving and Raptors took a step backwards by making our bigs become less mobile. Bargnani gained 40 lbs over the summer after his rookie season, and Valanciunas gained 45 lbs over the summer after his rookie season. That is a lot of weight over a short span, where they should've gradually gained muscle and let their bodies adjust. When I was 155 lbs, I was able to dunk. Now I am 195 lbs and I can barely touch the rim.

Jonas was suppose to be a Chandler type of motor with refined offense but that never panned out because they wanted him to be a traditional C. Those guys don't exist in starting lineups no more. It never made much sense to me, especially since Chandler is a skinny guy, why didn't they keep Valanciunas lean and mean? You would think they learn their mistakes after fattening up Bargnani on that primo pasta diet, and he became out of shape and was not able to hustle.

I was a big Bargnani excuser and I was hoping they wouldn't do the same for Val but they did and it didn't make sense back then, it definitely doesn't make sense now.

ChongInc.
06-05-2018, 02:56 PM
That's because Raptors take the same stupid approach when developing their big men. Both Bargnani and Jonas were encouraged to put on weight after their rookie season. Problem is that the game was evolving and Raptors took a step backwards by making our bigs become less mobile. Bargnani gained 40 lbs over the summer after his rookie season, and Valanciunas gained 45 lbs over the summer after his rookie season. That is a lot of weight over a short span, where they should've gradually gained muscle and let their bodies adjust. When I was 155 lbs, I was able to dunk. Now I am 195 lbs and I can barely touch the rim.

Jonas was suppose to be a Chandler type of motor with refined offense but that never panned out because they wanted him to be a traditional C. Those guys don't exist in starting lineups no more. It never made much sense to me, especially since Chandler is a skinny guy, why didn't they keep Valanciunas lean and mean? You would think they learn their mistakes after fattening up Bargnani on that primo pasta diet, and he became out of shape and was not able to hustle.

I was a big Bargnani excuser and I was hoping they wouldn't do the same for Val but they did and it didn't make sense back then, it definitely doesn't make sense now.

I agree so much I can't put it into words. This is exactly how I feel about both situations.

Even more first rating because I don't see other teams doing the same. This seems like a raptors thing to get guys to put on a ton of weight and hope it develops into muscle.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-05-2018, 08:41 PM
That's because Raptors take the same stupid approach when developing their big men. Both Bargnani and Jonas were encouraged to put on weight after their rookie season. Problem is that the game was evolving and Raptors took a step backwards by making our bigs become less mobile. Bargnani gained 40 lbs over the summer after his rookie season, and Valanciunas gained 45 lbs over the summer after his rookie season. That is a lot of weight over a short span, where they should've gradually gained muscle and let their bodies adjust. When I was 155 lbs, I was able to dunk. Now I am 195 lbs and I can barely touch the rim.

Jonas was suppose to be a Chandler type of motor with refined offense but that never panned out because they wanted him to be a traditional C. Those guys don't exist in starting lineups no more. It never made much sense to me, especially since Chandler is a skinny guy, why didn't they keep Valanciunas lean and mean? You would think they learn their mistakes after fattening up Bargnani on that primo pasta diet, and he became out of shape and was not able to hustle.

I was a big Bargnani excuser and I was hoping they wouldn't do the same for Val but they did and it didn't make sense back then, it definitely doesn't make sense now.

I don't mind that JV put in weight. We were trending getting smaller for a while but it accelerated only 3 years ago. Back in 2014, the Warriors were still running David Lee and Andrew Bogut in their starting lineup. Guys like Al Jeff and ZBo were (near) all stars. Players like Monroe and Pau was still playing PF, etc.

Byronicle
06-06-2018, 11:48 AM
I don't mind that JV put in weight. We were trending getting smaller for a while but it accelerated only 3 years ago. Back in 2014, the Warriors were still running David Lee and Andrew Bogut in their starting lineup. Guys like Al Jeff and ZBo were (near) all stars. Players like Monroe and Pau was still playing PF, etc.

One of Valanciunas strengths was high motor. Who has ever heard of a heavy high motor type of player? Its just a fact that the more weight you put on, the slower you get and that's because of inertia. Why slow down Valanciunas?

And its how they got him to gain weight. That much weight over a couple of months is too drastic of a change for his body to adapt. They should've just let his body age and mature gradually over his career, not fatten him up.

Even back then they had those guys like Pau playing as PF's in the beginning of the games, but they closed the games playing as the Center for their teams. Why? Because those large cumbersome C's who started the game don't have the endurance at the end and surprise surprise, Valanciunas doesn't play in the 4th for the same reasons. Pau plays better as a center and and played center for Memphis as well. Monroe is just a backup now, he can't play defense and did not amount to anything but Horford's backup. Speaking of Horford, look how that guy turned out, he even drains 3 balls and he was advertised as a PF coming in, but played and found success as a center his entire career.

ChongInc.
06-06-2018, 12:35 PM
Horford and Aldridge are good examples of skinny guys making it work.

Also we all saw Val take a huge step this year defensively, closing out games, and offensively using his quickness. All of those things have to do with him cutting weight in the offseason.

Seriously, when did putting on 30 lbs of weight in the offseason after your rookie year work? Can anyone name a player that this worked for? Dwight, LeBron, even pau or any of the success stories... They all added muscle mass over their first years. I seriously can't think of a time when this worked.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-06-2018, 08:13 PM
One of Valanciunas strengths was high motor. Who has ever heard of a heavy high motor type of player? Its just a fact that the more weight you put on, the slower you get and that's because of inertia. Why slow down Valanciunas?

And its how they got him to gain weight. That much weight over a couple of months is too drastic of a change for his body to adapt. They should've just let his body age and mature gradually over his career, not fatten him up.

Even back then they had those guys like Pau playing as PF's in the beginning of the games, but they closed the games playing as the Center for their teams. Why? Because those large cumbersome C's who started the game don't have the endurance at the end and surprise surprise, Valanciunas doesn't play in the 4th for the same reasons. Pau plays better as a center and and played center for Memphis as well. Monroe is just a backup now, he can't play defense and did not amount to anything but Horford's backup. Speaking of Horford, look how that guy turned out, he even drains 3 balls and he was advertised as a PF coming in, but played and found success as a center his entire career.

In that scenario, I was willing to trade his mobility in exchange for being a better suited offensive big man. His size now helps him operate inside. I was hoping that his 1 on 1 defense wouldn't have declined either, but clearly switching is the priority on defense now.

Byronicle
06-08-2018, 02:47 PM
In that scenario, I was willing to trade his mobility in exchange for being a better suited offensive big man. His size now helps him operate inside. I was hoping that his 1 on 1 defense wouldn't have declined either, but clearly switching is the priority on defense now.

I would like that too, but you got a problem when Lowry and Derozan were playing the 2 man offense. Sure its better now, but it was ridiculous earlier and it wasn't evident until we briefly had James Johnson helping distribute the ball, followed up by Van Fleet and Wright joining our offense and we started going with 2 point guards to help distribute the ball.

Then we signed Ibaka which meant less touches for Valanciunas, and we all know how that turned out.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-08-2018, 09:27 PM
I would like that too, but you got a problem when Lowry and Derozan were playing the 2 man offense. Sure its better now, but it was ridiculous earlier and it wasn't evident until we briefly had James Johnson helping distribute the ball, followed up by Van Fleet and Wright joining our offense and we started going with 2 point guards to help distribute the ball.

Then we signed Ibaka which meant less touches for Valanciunas, and we all know how that turned out.

No way to predict that at the time. JV was like 22 and we lucked out on the playoff appearances. I assume they approached his early years with a rebuild but just didn't work that way and maybe they ended up having him focus on other things but his offense.

ChongInc.
06-11-2018, 10:45 AM
Seriously can anyone think of another franchise who does this to their big men? Gobert seems like a good example of a guy who would have been ruined here if he was told to put on a ton of pasta weight. I can't think of a single franchise who does this. I think it's time to look at some different trainers that understand the league.

pulzar
06-11-2018, 01:23 PM
Seriously can anyone think of another franchise who does this to their big men? Gobert seems like a good example of a guy who would have been ruined here if he was told to put on a ton of pasta weight. I can't think of a single franchise who does this. I think it's time to look at some different trainers that understand the league.

In defense of the current guys, they haven't made Poeltl gain a bunch of pasta weight. Not yet, anyway :).

pebloemer
06-11-2018, 02:28 PM
In defense of the current guys, they haven't made Poeltl gain a bunch of pasta weight. Not yet, anyway :).

I believe they were working with JV on trimming down a couple years back as well.

Byronicle
06-13-2018, 10:57 AM
No way to predict that at the time. JV was like 22 and we lucked out on the playoff appearances. I assume they approached his early years with a rebuild but just didn't work that way and maybe they ended up having him focus on other things but his offense.

Yeah we lucked out with these guards which is a factor to our recent success especially this past season, but Derozan and Lowry were playing that 2 man offense before Valanciunas was here. They were doing it with Bargnani, so yes it was pretty predictable to see how Derozan and Lowry would take this Raptor's offense and how Valanciunas would fit in.

They needed a big who can play like Tyson Chandler with a high motor and to get put backs and crash the boards since we all knew Lowry and Derozan was going to take many shots. So we out there and drafted a player in Valanciunas who was advertised as a Tyson Chandler with a decent jump shot, someone who would complement Lowry and Derozan.

But instead we got him to rush the weight gain after his rookie season, and rushing any type of development (in this case him gaining weight) is the anti-thesis to a proper rebuild. Why would they get him to gain all that weight if we were rebuilding at the time? We didn't make the playoffs until his 4th year. We had plenty of time to let him progressively gain weight. It is what it is. A stupid decision.

ecart
06-13-2018, 05:03 PM
They gained weight because we kept hiring old fogeys resistant to change.

ChongInc.
06-15-2018, 01:07 PM
Also with baths they were trying to force a forward into a centre. I think they hoped his rebounding would improve with the weight gain. Instead it slowed him down and stifled his offensive tools. Stupid still to this day and I'll never forgive them for ruining my favorite player at the time (I'm Italian).

ecart
06-15-2018, 01:48 PM
Also with baths they were trying to force a forward into a centre. I think they hoped his rebounding would improve with the weight gain. Instead it slowed him down and stifled his offensive tools. Stupid still to this day and I'll never forgive them for ruining my favorite player at the time (I'm Italian).

Smitch thought he was soft and thought he needed to be a back to basket bruiser in order to be a starting 5 in the league. Smitch had no vision and had archaic views about the league. I think Bargs would be better received in today's league.