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knittingmill
07-03-2008, 12:47 AM
I've had it with his 5 inning 100+ pitch starts. He is NOT going to turn things around and it is the definition of insanity to think otherwise. Other teams will give plenty for him it was only his signing bonus that was exorbitant. :bang:

gcoll
07-03-2008, 12:51 AM
And what is your alternative?

I know he can be frustrating, but the fact of the matter is...he's 9-1, with a very good ERA...and great numbers in just about every category, except for walks.

knittingmill
07-03-2008, 01:27 AM
First of all W-L can be very deceptive. Wake has been lights out but his record doesn't reflect it. Second, let's see what others offer in return. Third, let's bring back Buchholz who's been doing great. Charlie Zink'll eat up innings at the very least and give the pen some rest and give 'tek another day off which he probably needs.

bottom line, probably sooner than later he's gonna lose his high trade value.

quiksilver2491
07-03-2008, 01:29 AM
Don't give up on him quite yet. I know that we all expect him to be Cy Young caliber but we didn't sign him to a 6 year deal for nothing, we know it will take time for him to fully develop into a MLB pitcher. He will only be getting better with more time in the league, and he's already not too shaby.

quiksilver2491
07-03-2008, 01:32 AM
First of all W-L can be very deceptive. Wake has been lights out but his record doesn't reflect it. Second, let's see what others offer in return. Third, let's bring back Buchholz who's been doing great. Charlie Zink'll eat up innings at the very least and give the pen some rest and give 'tek another day off which he probably needs.

bottom line, probably sooner than later he's gonna lose his high trade value.

W-L can be deceptive when looking at a pitcher's talent, but deffinitely not their team value. I would take a pitcher that can get me 25 wins even if they had an ERA of 14.59. We seem to perform well when he pitches so I can't complain. Sure he makes it harder on our bullpen but thats what long relievers are for.

gcoll
07-03-2008, 01:33 AM
First of all W-L can be very deceptive.
Yes. But all of Dice-K's stats are good...EXCEPT for walks. .


Wake has been lights out but his record doesn't reflect it.
Wake has been good. But I wouldn't call him "lights out"


Second, let's see what others offer in return.
Very little. You won't get fair value for what Dice-K can bring to the table for us.

Starting pitching is very hard to find.


Third, let's bring back Buchholz who's been doing great. Charlie Zink'll eat up innings at the very least and give the pen some rest and give 'tek another day off which he probably needs.
You'd rather have Charlie Zink in the rotation instead of Dice-K?


bottom line, probably sooner than later he's gonna lose his high trade value.
Dice-K is helping this team win. He can be frustrating, but overall...he's helped this team.

And he can be frustrating. But if you saw the last couple innings of his start today.....that's not someone I would just give up on.

Tragedy
07-03-2008, 02:00 AM
What's the big deal? He's not the ace of our staff, nor is he expected to be. He is what he is. He's a solid number 3, and I'll take it. Considering guys like Ted Lilly are getting $40+ million for 4 years, I'll take Matsuzaka for 6 years at $50 million. He's going to give me 5 (Sometimes frustrating) innings, but in the end, he's going to give his team a chance to win.

quiksilver2491
07-03-2008, 02:17 AM
Well he deffinitely has ace type stuff, he just doesn't use it correctly. I don't care how they pitch in Japan but you don't throw a curve or slider in a 3-2 count in MLB, batters aren't going to swing at it if its not in the strikezone and if it is they will crush it. He still has to get used to this league IMO, but he has shown a lot of flashes of brilliance.

knittingmill
07-03-2008, 02:23 AM
I'm confused. On one hand he's worth a ton because starting pitching is so hard to find but on the other hand we'll get nothing in return? He is a talent but a flawed one. somebody out there's gonna think they'll be able to turn him into sandy koufax so i say rape them before his reputation falters.

quiksilver2491
07-03-2008, 02:31 AM
I'm confused. On one hand he's worth a ton because starting pitching is so hard to find but on the other hand we'll get nothing in return? He is a talent but a flawed one. somebody out there's gonna think they'll be able to turn him into sandy koufax so i say rape them before his reputation falters.

Your making it like his arm is going to fall off or all of a sudden he is going to blow up and become a scrub. I don't get what you are basing this off, his stat line has only gotten better since he has came into the league.

gcoll
07-03-2008, 02:45 AM
How long am I willing to say "Just wait until he gets under control".....way longer than it's taken so far.

He has it in him to be a front of the rotation starter. I'm willing to give him some time to work out some kinks. I mean.....if the bullpen holds it today, he's 10-1. Hasn't been pretty at all times, but he's been effective.

Today for example. He went 5 innings...he only gave up 2 hits. They couldn't touch him. He walked a lot of guys early, and was all over the place. But by the end of his outing, he was mowing them down. They couldn't touch him.

But, right now...if I hear Dice-K is in the 6th inning, with a no-hitter. I'd assume he got out of a couple bases loaded jams.

Buckwheat
07-03-2008, 05:04 AM
What's the big deal? He's not the ace of our staff, nor is he expected to be. He is what he is. He's a solid number 3, and I'll take it. Considering guys like Ted Lilly are getting $40+ million for 4 years, I'll take Matsuzaka for 6 years at $50 million. He's going to give me 5 (Sometimes frustrating) innings, but in the end, he's going to give his team a chance to win.

:sad2:

Anyways, I watch Dice K all of the time and ask what the big deal is. He is on pace for 138 IP, sure, but has a good ERA. 55 hits in 75 innings is good quality. He was on the DL, which took away some more innings from him.

Like everyone is saying, he's 27 and is a sophomore. Give him more than 1.25 seasons before putting the judge and jury out on this one.

sboyajian
07-03-2008, 07:34 AM
DiceK is painful to watch because of his control issues..

but he keeps the runs down.. he gives you a chance to win everytime he's on the mound.. that's not his problem if you don't win them.

lil'papi
07-03-2008, 08:02 AM
He to me is a regular season pitcher that's his flaw. You can't go 5-6 innings 100-120 pitches in the playoffs and win.
Your BP will get seriously taxed. He is not going to be traded. He for me is a sissy he hates to use the FB because he's been stung by the HR. He nibbles and nibbles which leads to a lot of pitches , high walk totals. On the flip side he keeps you in games.

I would love to see him stop nibbling start saying beat me if you can! Lester did it .....his pitch total went down. You will have a bad outing here and there , but you will get into 7-8th innings easier.

He would learn more too. His control is just horrendous at times because he doesn't bend when he throws he is upright. Not much you can do ......

I say let him throw 120-140 pitches and see what happens. :D

knittingmill
07-03-2008, 08:32 AM
i find the asian players to be inflexible. the way they come over is the way they stay. he's no sophomore he's a veteran. why isn't he doing what lester did? must i mention byung hyun kim?

RedSoxtober
07-03-2008, 09:16 AM
What's the big deal? He's not the ace of our staff, nor is he expected to be. He is what he is. He's a solid number 3, and I'll take it. Considering guys like Ted Lilly are getting $40+ million for 4 years, I'll take Matsuzaka for 6 years at $50 million. He's going to give me 5 (Sometimes frustrating) innings, but in the end, he's going to give his team a chance to win.

To me the big deal is that only going 5 innings hurts the team. He gives them a chance to win but the trust has to be left in the hands of a weak BP to finish things out. The extra innings (1 or 2 depending on how you look at it) he requires makes the weak BP even weaker. So the trade off is a chance to win one game and a weakened chance the next. Obviously an innings eater like Wake has to follow him.


Yes. But all of Dice-K's stats are good...EXCEPT for walks. .
Well, not exactly. It's obviously related but his k/bb (1.32) sucks as does his p/ip (18.05), and his whip (1.39) and oba (.324) leave a lot to be desired. He's also giving up many more flyball outs this year, suggesting that he's staying up in the zone far too often.


Wake has been good. But I wouldn't call him "lights out"
What's 'lights out'? I think we reserve the term a bit too often for guys with gas like Beckett. Did you realize that Wake now has gone seven straight starts with 7+ IP, 3Er or less? That's the longest streak of any Sox pitcher since Pedro (11 straight in 2000). He has a 1.98 era and a 0.96 whip over that span. 37k/15bb (a little high but better than Dice-K!). What else does it take to be 'lights out'?


Very little. You won't get fair value for what Dice-K can bring to the table for us.

Starting pitching is very hard to find.

Dice-K is helping this team win. He can be frustrating, but overall...he's helped this team.

And he can be frustrating. But if you saw the last couple innings of his start today.....that's not someone I would just give up on.

I think the team is helping Dice-K rather than the other way around. They have, for whatever reason, played well when he's been on the mound and he's been able to escape jams as a result. Overall (this season and last) he's not someone that gets me excited or gives me any measure of confidence.

That said, he won't be moved and it's not about talent. It's about business. There is still too much revenue from the Asian markets that's directly tied to him and the FO needs to realize a net profit on his deal and payoff the balance of their debt to buy the team. As long as he's creating cash he will stay.

Tragedy
07-03-2008, 10:55 AM
To me the big deal is that only going 5 innings hurts the team. He gives them a chance to win but the trust has to be left in the hands of a weak BP to finish things out. The extra innings (1 or 2 depending on how you look at it) he requires makes the weak BP even weaker. So the trade off is a chance to win one game and a weakened chance the next. Obviously an innings eater like Wake has to follow him.
Him only going 5 in most starts would only hurt the team if he were the number 2, and everyone behind him wasn't picking up the slack. On paper, people call Matsuzaka our number 2. But, in reality, when Beckett/Wakefield/Lester are each going 6-7 innings per start, we can afford Matsuzaka doing what he continues to do: 5 IP, 1-2 ER allowed. I think we can all agree that him going 6-7 IP would be fair beneficial to the team, but it's not going to happen. So, we have to treat it the way it is; And it's really not that bad.