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-Lavigne43-
07-02-2008, 11:43 PM
Obviously the bullpen is a disaster right now. So how do we fix it?

Personally I think we need to bring up Buchholz to start in the rotation while Masterson moves into the pen. We also need to find another reliable reliever either externally or internally. I think giving Bard a chance would be an interesting option. He has pitched great as a reliever in the minors and I can see him as a solid middle reliever.

Tragedy
07-02-2008, 11:45 PM
I hear Gagne is available. :shrug:

I'm really not sure how to fix the mess.

We have to hope that Okajima, first and foremost, can get on the right track. That would help out a heck of a lot. Delcarmen was good in June, too. Other than that, I wouldn't have an issue with giving Chris Smith more of a look, and then bringing in another reliever from outside of the organization.

And while we're at it, we might as well start the "MASTERSON AS A SU MAN!!!" topic, because it's going to come up sooner or later.

bagwell368
07-02-2008, 11:48 PM
Good start (Masterson to SU). But Okajima needs to go on the DL to get himself together as well IMO. And a trade for a lefty seems to be lurking too.

vince wilfort
07-02-2008, 11:54 PM
I think they should try out Chris Smith in some pivotal situations. Maybe he can be the savior. Other than that, maybe they should trade for a reliever.

Tragedy
07-02-2008, 11:54 PM
Good start (Masterson to SU). But Okajima needs to go on the DL to get himself together as well IMO. And a trade for a lefty seems to be lurking too.
Lopez hasn't been doing so poorly. If you get Okajima back on track, there isn't a NEED for a lefty reliever. Just any good reliever will do.

gcoll
07-03-2008, 12:27 AM
Okajima looked pretty good today.

Hansen and Delcarmen are way too inconsistent to be relied on this year, but I won't give up on Oki this year at all.

And yeah. I think Masterson to the bp some time during this year is a given. Maybe even as soon as Buchholz gets back, provided he pitches well.

What about Bartolo as a setup guy, when he gets back?

kazzy4080
07-03-2008, 12:34 AM
Lopez hasn't been doing so poorly. If you get Okajima back on track, there isn't a NEED for a lefty reliever. Just any good reliever will do.

i was at the youk game winning homerun game against the cardinals couple of weeks back, and i saw lopez come in and i was like **** this is over, and then i went on telling my buddy how much lopez sucks, lopez got out of the inning without giving up a run even though he got a couple of long scary fly outs, but when i got home and i looked at his numbers i was wicked surprised to see how good they are,

quiksilver2491
07-03-2008, 01:40 AM
Its not as bad as it looks. Our offense has just been putting us in games that are very close and our bullpen has made some mistakes. If we were dominating teams then we wouldn't notice at all how the bullpen is doing, its just that they have blown some leads in tight games. I know its their job to seal things up for us but you can't expect them to be lights out every game, even the best bullpens get beat sometimes. I think we are just used to having that dominant bullpen that we had last year. We will be fine, we just need to move some players around, a trade isn't necessary IMO and as our rotation starts to get more solid it will only help the pen.

lil'papi
07-03-2008, 08:13 AM
Our BP has sucked , no sugar coating it.
No they won't hold leads every game , but more than they are currently. Hansen is back to GAS-CAN Hansen. MDC hit a really rough patch. Oki can't throw a split now.

Masterson needs time in the minors to work out of the pen, imo. Just throw him to the wolves here might hurt him.

Bard's 97-98mph translates anywhere. Why NOT!

He simply cannot be worse than Hansen or Timlim....

bosox1899
07-03-2008, 08:18 AM
Its not as bad as it looks. Our offense has just been putting us in games that are very close and our bullpen has made some mistakes. If we were dominating teams then we wouldn't notice at all how the bullpen is doing, its just that they have blown some leads in tight games. I know its their job to seal things up for us but you can't expect them to be lights out every game, even the best bullpens get beat sometimes. I think we are just used to having that dominant bullpen that we had last year. We will be fine, we just need to move some players around, a trade isn't necessary IMO and as our rotation starts to get more solid it will only help the pen.

that seems to be the running excuse nowadays, "you can't expect them to be lights out every game"...no you cant expect them but we also cant expect them to give up 3 or more runs as consistently as they have. Yes it is also the ****ty offenses fault to but we know we have the players to fix that, the bullpen however needs some trades or call ups to be fixed

lil'papi
07-03-2008, 08:28 AM
We can't even get to Paps now? Sad.....

RedSoxtober
07-03-2008, 08:36 AM
quicksilver, I'm not really picking on you but the themes that I see in your post that have been raised by many others as well. No offense intended.


Its not as bad as it looks. Our offense has just been putting us in games that are very close and our bullpen has made some mistakes.

On the season the Sox are
#22 in BP era (4.07, team average BP is 3.81)
#20 in whip (1.47, avg = 1.37)
#18 in OBA (.253, average = .247)
#18 in OBP against (.330, avg = .328)
#14 in OPS against (.711, AL avg = .706)
#5 in blown saves

So, I guess you're right, unless you consider being below average in every significant category (era, whip, oba/obp/ops) and failing to fill the role you're tasked with (blown saves) a bad thing.


If we were dominating teams then we wouldn't notice at all how the bullpen is doing, its just that they have blown some leads in tight games. I know its their job to seal things up for us but you can't expect them to be lights out every game, even the best bullpens get beat sometimes. I think we are just used to having that dominant bullpen that we had last year. We will be fine, we just need to move some players around, a trade isn't necessary IMO and as our rotation starts to get more solid it will only help the pen.
Unfortunately one of the regular trains of thought that I see fairly often these days is "when everything gets back to normal..." I'm not sure if it's a matter of arrogance ("if we were dominating...", "our offense should..."), being obtuse ("but you can't expect them to be lights out every game"), or a simple insistence that things will return to they way they were ("as our rotation starts to get more solid...").

The numbers just don't lie. Key members of the 2007 BP simply are not able to repeat their performance from 2007. For many independent observers we're getting the kind of performance they expected to see from Oki (no overpowering stuff, more deceptive than anything). Hansen seems to be incapable of translating his minor league successes to MLB. MDC, who seemed to be emerging as a stalwart last year, has reverted to his previous Jeckyll and Hyde routine. Timlin was poised for no more than a SU role this year and has been pressed to do more. Even Paps has shown signs of being human with a few GW HR to blow some saves. (Not being an alarmist with Paps, just recognizing that he's a little more vulnerable than in the past while still getting the job done most often).

Bullpens are the most difficult part of the game to maintain. Very few relievers have consistently strong seasons back to back. Hell, look at the CLE pen that dominated last year as well. They're a mess, too. That's not an excuse for BOS, only a simple recognition that standing pat is often standing in quicksand: you do not go anywhere but generally sink.

The Sox need to identify their primary SU guy, and need a strong LH presence. Despite his general success I don't quite trust either of those to Lopez; the loopy delivery is too prone to sweep out of the strike zone in pressure situations. He can be one of the more helpful MR guys, though. Timlin will revive there as well IMO. Aardsma may end up bordering between MR/SU, particularly if he can come in consistently in the 8th (clean innings).

I'd be pretty tempted to move Hansen in a deal with for Marte. There is no way that PIT can pick up his contract for next year. He might be both the SU and LH reliever they need.

lil'papi
07-03-2008, 09:03 AM
Hence Theo bringing in guys considered done. (Aardsma) Hit or miss, but hard throwers still throwing hard are much better prospects to do well.

The BP IMO is a product of overuse or a case could be made.

We need starters to start getting us into late innings more often that not. 骰子 麿 傍聴? anyone know Japanese? That says Dicek you listening.

quiksilver2491
07-03-2008, 02:01 PM
Oh has it been that bad I guess I never realized that :rolleyes:. Of course the stats are going to look bad, we just blew the last 5 or 6 games because of the bullpen but you fail to realize we are sixth in IP for any ML team with 770 IP and about 32.8% of that has been our bullpen which would be the second highest percentage used out of any of the other 5 teams ahead of us(the only one that beat us is the Padres but they played that 22 inning game and have 787 IP anyways). I wouldn't expect any bullpen to perform to well under those conditions. Also if its so bad what exactly would you do to fix it? Trade for Damsaso Marte?

moneyball
07-03-2008, 02:02 PM
quicksilver, I'm not really picking on you but the themes that I see in your post that have been raised by many others as well. No offense intended.



On the season the Sox are
#22 in BP era (4.07, team average BP is 3.81)
#20 in whip (1.47, avg = 1.37)
#18 in OBA (.253, average = .247)
#18 in OBP against (.330, avg = .328)
#14 in OPS against (.711, AL avg = .706)
#5 in blown saves

So, I guess you're right, unless you consider being below average in every significant category (era, whip, oba/obp/ops) and failing to fill the role you're tasked with (blown saves) a bad thing.


Unfortunately one of the regular trains of thought that I see fairly often these days is "when everything gets back to normal..." I'm not sure if it's a matter of arrogance ("if we were dominating...", "our offense should..."), being obtuse ("but you can't expect them to be lights out every game"), or a simple insistence that things will return to they way they were ("as our rotation starts to get more solid...").

The numbers just don't lie. Key members of the 2007 BP simply are not able to repeat their performance from 2007. For many independent observers we're getting the kind of performance they expected to see from Oki (no overpowering stuff, more deceptive than anything). Hansen seems to be incapable of translating his minor league successes to MLB. MDC, who seemed to be emerging as a stalwart last year, has reverted to his previous Jeckyll and Hyde routine. Timlin was poised for no more than a SU role this year and has been pressed to do more. Even Paps has shown signs of being human with a few GW HR to blow some saves. (Not being an alarmist with Paps, just recognizing that he's a little more vulnerable than in the past while still getting the job done most often).

Bullpens are the most difficult part of the game to maintain. Very few relievers have consistently strong seasons back to back. Hell, look at the CLE pen that dominated last year as well. They're a mess, too. That's not an excuse for BOS, only a simple recognition that standing pat is often standing in quicksand: you do not go anywhere but generally sink.

The Sox need to identify their primary SU guy, and need a strong LH presence. Despite his general success I don't quite trust either of those to Lopez; the loopy delivery is too prone to sweep out of the strike zone in pressure situations. He can be one of the more helpful MR guys, though. Timlin will revive there as well IMO. Aardsma may end up bordering between MR/SU, particularly if he can come in consistently in the 8th (clean innings).

I'd be pretty tempted to move Hansen in a deal with for Marte. There is no way that PIT can pick up his contract for next year. He might be both the SU and LH reliever they need. When a team needs to be careful how it spends, why on earth would Pittsburgh take on the overpriced Hansen?

GrkGawdofWalkz
07-03-2008, 02:21 PM
They should go hard after Brian Fuentes, and gradually then piece something else together in the right side. But Fuentes is a great set up guy.

quiksilver2491
07-03-2008, 02:28 PM
They should go hard after Brian Fuentes, and gradually then piece something else together in the right side. But Fuentes is a great set up guy.

Please his 1.37 WHIP is garbage, even Javier Lopez hasn't been that bad. Im sorry I just don't see many viable options out there unless you want to severly overpay in prospects for a rental guy that will leave next year and will be no guarantee to fix our pen.

KmB728
07-03-2008, 02:47 PM
We should put Masterson,Bard, and maybe even bartolo into the pen

do we have any other options?? i mean if we dont fix this soon were in trouble

PapelbonLester
07-03-2008, 03:10 PM
we need to rest OKIE. he's blowin all types of leads. Chris Smith needs to stay up cause timlin is only going to make it worse. Bard..... dont want to rush him up. Let him stay down and devolp. MAYBE just MAYBE trade JM. i love masterson but i feel that our bullpen is just rediculiously bad. I would LOVE to put JM at the setup role but i dont see francona doing that. we NEED another arm in the pen. hopefully we go out and grab someone but probably not. Maybe francona will understand that OKIE aint got it no more and that he was just a 1 year wonder. david pauly is also tearing up triple a so maybe bring him up and try him out as a reliever.

RedSoxtober
07-03-2008, 03:11 PM
They should go hard after Brian Fuentes, and gradually then piece something else together in the right side. But Fuentes is a great set up guy.

I believe Fuentes would be a Gagnian disaster (<==I'm coining that term!).

He was coveted in '05 and '06 but his k/9 was up over 10 then (11.02, 10.06 respectively) but he's down below 8.0 now. oba is off as well. He's also giving up hits at an alarming rate.

If his price is driven by past glories then he'll fetch a few prospects and melt down. Contrary to what you might expect, he's not significantly better away from hit-happy Coors field.

futureheisman
07-03-2008, 04:28 PM
How to fix the bullpen:
Trade for a good solid lefty: Damaso marte and Bill Bray would be great fixtures

An intrested name out there who DFA is kirko Calero. he is out there and was highly effective for the A's and put up high strikeout numbers. he was recently released i think he would be a guy who could help this pen.

so if you get marte who is highly effective againist lefties.178 Average
Bill Bray againist righties .189 BA.
These guys are cheap and would cost the type of prospects it would for a guy like fuentes who you be in bidding wars againist other teams.
Calero is out there right now if anyone wants him and it would be a great gamble to take i think with his past sucess

Internal options:

move materson or bucholtz to the pen and DFA Timlin.

Bring up Daniel Bard and send hansen down

Seeif you can get something out of bard who has been doing great at portland.

This is how I would fix this mess.

Wake's Fastball
07-03-2008, 05:24 PM
I can't understand why so many people are on the Daniel Bard train. I don't understand how he's a better option than Hansen. They're both nearly the exact same makeup, except Hansen's slider is far better than what I've seen/heard of Bard's secondary pitches.

RedSoxtober
07-03-2008, 09:37 PM
I can't understand why so many people are on the Daniel Bard train. I don't understand how he's a better option than Hansen. They're both nearly the exact same makeup, except Hansen's slider is far better than what I've seen/heard of Bard's secondary pitches.

He's throwing 98+ and (finally) throwing it accurately. 69k/13bb in 53IP. The Sox really like a power arm to come in for strikeouts in the late innings so he makes a lot of sense.

Hansen, on the other hand, seems intent on showing that he's not better than his rushed debut, at least not at MLB.

Did anyone besides me notice the gun on him last night? I didn't see anything above 92MPH. What happened to 95-98 from him? He was all over the place and 88-92. So frustrating to watch.

Wake's Fastball
07-03-2008, 11:02 PM
He's throwing 98+ and (finally) throwing it accurately. 69k/13bb in 53IP. The Sox really like a power arm to come in for strikeouts in the late innings so he makes a lot of sense.

Hansen, on the other hand, seems intent on showing that he's not better than his rushed debut, at least not at MLB.

Did anyone besides me notice the gun on him last night? I didn't see anything above 92MPH. What happened to 95-98 from him? He was all over the place and 88-92. So frustrating to watch.

I understand that, but I just can't imagine that he'd be any different than Hansen. Craig had outstanding stats in triple A and was locating his pitches, but transitioning to the major league level means you've got to be even more selective, and with Bard's shaky control problems in the past I really don't imagine he'd be any more efficient than Hansen's been at the major league level, especially given his lack of secondary pitches.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that what Hansen's getting blasted for - inconsistency, inability to throw strikes, and a weak mental approach - could all be used to describe Bard as well, at least at this point in his career (and especially last year). I really hope the Sox continue to ease him along, rather than have him just make the jump to the ML level as a possible quick fix. I'd rather see Hunter Jones or Zink get used if the Sox are going to explore their options in the minors.

lil'papi
07-04-2008, 08:42 AM
I understand that, but I just can't imagine that he'd be any different than Hansen. Craig had outstanding stats in triple A and was locating his pitches, but transitioning to the major league level means you've got to be even more selective, and with Bard's shaky control problems in the past I really don't imagine he'd be any more efficient than Hansen's been at the major league level, especially given his lack of secondary pitches.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that what Hansen's getting blasted for - inconsistency, inability to throw strikes, and a weak mental approach - could all be used to describe Bard as well, at least at this point in his career (and especially last year). I really hope the Sox continue to ease him along, rather than have him just make the jump to the ML level as a possible quick fix. I'd rather see Hunter Jones or Zink get used if the Sox are going to explore their options in the minors.


You make the point for us. Bard won't be any worse/better. Then lets see? Bard has pitched in our system two years one as a starter. Hansen has been around much longer and no matter what he repeats himself. He has been slightly better, but that's not good enough.

This kid (Bard)can throw 100mph he hasn't had control issues. He worked extensively in Hawaii on secondary pitches and it's paid off.

I see the flip side too. But this isn't a HS kid he was in college. He simply won't walk as many betters as Hansen does. In Hansens spot in the pen he CAN'T walk ANYONE. It's just a fact.

Walks kill.

I am not sure either way. I imagine they find an arm over the next few weeks either from our system or a deal. I prefer a deal if the right guy is out there. Then we are both happy.

Lester cured some ills last night maybe Beckett can one up him. That would give the pen two complete days off.

stanleythemanly
07-04-2008, 10:18 AM
Baseball is about chemistry - if You don't have it Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Junior and A-Rod mean NOTHING.
When Theo cut Julian Tavarez EVERYTHING changed. And very frankly Mr.Epstein these STIFFS that are supposed to be an improvement ARE NOT.
The "knock" on Tavarez was that once a batting order saw him twice it was curtains - well - once a batting order sees this collection that's currently known as The Red Sox Bullpen eyes get as big as saucers and salivation in the on-deck circle becomes a distraction.
PLUS - all the Non-American Roster Players are pissed off at You for sticking Your nose into a machine that previously had been RESPECTABLE and somewhat FEARED. Tavarez would NEVER have let Coco take the "gang beating" from Tampa Bay - someone on The Rays would have PAID and paid dearly and everyone in Red Sox Nation that knows Tavarez knows it's TRUE.
Tavarez recently refused a Minor League assignment with The Brewers and he's AVAILABLE. The knock on him is that he's "a flake" - so what if You're not enamored with him - other lineups and how they perceive him is what COUNTS.
Does anyone really believe that Tampa Bay would have Won that final game if Tavarez had been in the middle after Okijima?
This Bullpen SUCKS - bring back Tavarez and at least nobody's gonna crowd the plate - rest assured of that.
Even Terry Francona will be happier with a guy who'd rather be carried out on his shield than be a MILKTOAST.

lil'papi
07-04-2008, 10:42 AM
Tavy to the rescue.......yehaaa

Now that's a stretch! Head hunting might have been a bad idea after the umpires told both teams , NOT TOO>!
I never really gave Tavy a thought as a saviour. You must own a shirt with his name on it?

Wake's Fastball
07-04-2008, 12:31 PM
You make the point for us. Bard won't be any worse/better. Then lets see? Bard has pitched in our system two years one as a starter. Hansen has been around much longer and no matter what he repeats himself. He has been slightly better, but that's not good enough.

This kid (Bard)can throw 100mph he hasn't had control issues. He worked extensively in Hawaii on secondary pitches and it's paid off.

I see the flip side too. But this isn't a HS kid he was in college. He simply won't walk as many betters as Hansen does. In Hansens spot in the pen he CAN'T walk ANYONE. It's just a fact.

Walks kill.

I am not sure either way. I imagine they find an arm over the next few weeks either from our system or a deal. I prefer a deal if the right guy is out there. Then we are both happy.

Lester cured some ills last night maybe Beckett can one up him. That would give the pen two complete days off.

But my point is that I think, for all of his shortcomings, that Hansen is the better option. He's hit 97 on multiple occasions, and toss his slider into that and he's got as much raw power off the mound as anyone in our system. Bard's the same guy that everyone pronounced as DOA eight months ago after extensive control issues, and while he's been dominant this year in the minors, I'd hate to see him take a few steps back if and when he gets hit around at a level that's above where he should be. He's got stellar numbers, but Hansen was also dominating AAA this year, so it's hard to just say that he'll be a great option out of the pen for us when he's yet to pitch above AA.

knittingmill
07-04-2008, 02:22 PM
they're not gonna put a top caliber starting prospect in the pen but i think they should experiment with el guapo and hansack.

kazzy4080
07-04-2008, 04:02 PM
they're not gonna put a top caliber starting prospect in the pen but i think they should experiment with el guapo and hansack.

man i miss that dude

stanleythemanly
07-04-2008, 09:36 PM
Tavy to the rescue.......yehaaa

Now that's a stretch! Head hunting might have been a bad idea after the umpires told both teams , NOT TOO>!
I never really gave Tavy a thought as a saviour. You must own a shirt with his name on it?

Oh - so You'd rather go with Theo's current collection of almost was's and never were's. SHREWD...
Nobody in that Bullpen fills as many roles as Julian Tavarez; Spot Starter, Long Relief, Middle Relief.
And for all The Experts out there with short term memory loss I seem to remember one of the best battles in all of '07 was Tavarez vs. Santana in a Game that Tavarez should have Won but go zero support from the bats; in fact all of last season Tavarez took on the other clubs' #1's which allowed the rest of the staff to feast on the #'s 2-5.
Tavarez comes back and Manny and YOUR NAMESAKE lil P come back too.
Wake up - these guys were and are pretty tight.
And while You're at it - wake Theo up too will Ya.
Chemistry.
And while I'm on it I said last AUGUST on The TDPRI that when Maddon got some decent Pitching that Tampa would be a FORCE and "the x-perts" said "never"...:cool:

Tragedy
07-04-2008, 11:02 PM
Oh - so You'd rather go with Theo's current collection of almost was's and never were's. SHREWD...
Nobody in that Bullpen fills as many roles as Julian Tavarez; Spot Starter, Long Relief, Middle Relief.
And for all The Experts out there with short term memory loss I seem to remember one of the best battles in all of '07 was Tavarez vs. Santana in a Game that Tavarez should have Won but go zero support from the bats; in fact all of last season Tavarez took on the other clubs' #1's which allowed the rest of the staff to feast on the #'s 2-5.
Tavarez comes back and Manny and YOUR NAMESAKE lil P come back too.
Wake up - these guys were and are pretty tight.
And while You're at it - wake Theo up too will Ya.
Chemistry.
And while I'm on it I said last AUGUST on The TDPRI that when Maddon got some decent Pitching that Tampa would be a FORCE and "the x-perts" said "never"...:cool:
LOL, what?

Just because a person can fill many roles (As Tavarez can) doesn't make him good. It means he can fill many roles. That's all. Unless he actually produces well in some of those roles, what's his real value? Eric Hinske last year played some RF, LF, and 1B (And could have played 3B). How valuable/good was he?

As for Tampa getting pitching, every person and their mother kept saying the same thing. They work a better rotation and bulpen, and they'll be a good team. They brought in some good bullpen guys (Wheeler & Percival) and they brought in one more good young pitcher (Garza). Everyone was waiting for it to happen, not just you.

lil'papi
07-05-2008, 09:43 AM
I predicted the Rays would be really good this year. Way before the season started. I didn't think this good but a 81 win team.
.........they will fall out of the tree eventually.

Tavy went south on us didn't throw one meaningful pitch the whole playoffs. He was down right awful at times. YES, he had a few moments but nowhere near enough to warrant a spot on this current team.

If he was so good why didn't anyone want him in a trade? Nobody wanted a mid 5 era guy? A guy that could flip his wig at any moment.

This guy:http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tavarju01.shtml

His current ERA is 8.59. sounds like a sure BP fix to me.

RedSoxtober
07-06-2008, 06:07 PM
Baseball is about chemistry - if You don't have it Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Junior and A-Rod mean NOTHING.
When Theo cut Julian Tavarez EVERYTHING changed. And very frankly Mr.Epstein these STIFFS that are supposed to be an improvement ARE NOT.

The "knock" on Tavarez was that once a batting order saw him twice it was curtains - well - once a batting order sees this collection that's currently known as The Red Sox Bullpen eyes get as big as saucers and salivation in the on-deck circle becomes a distraction.


Dude, this is a serious conspiracy theory you're spinning here. The fact is that Tavarez did not have the confidence of Francona. He had a 6.39 era, 2.13 whip, and had walked more batters (9) than he struck out (6) and both counts were pathetic considering the number of innings he'd pitched (12). It had nothing to do with any perception of him; it had to do with his inability to get the job done.

The idea that the BP was FEARED at the time is absolutely BS. The Sox BP had one of the league's worst ERAs. When Tavy lost his job they improved. Their only sustained run was over May/June after he was cut.

Chemistry is important. The fact that 13 or 14 guys go out to dinner together on the road says that the Sox have some. Tavy obviously did not help or hurt that.


But my point is that I think, for all of his shortcomings, that Hansen is the better option. He's hit 97 on multiple occasions, and toss his slider into that and he's got as much raw power off the mound as anyone in our system. Bard's the same guy that everyone pronounced as DOA eight months ago after extensive control issues, and while he's been dominant this year in the minors, I'd hate to see him take a few steps back if and when he gets hit around at a level that's above where he should be. He's got stellar numbers, but Hansen was also dominating AAA this year, so it's hard to just say that he'll be a great option out of the pen for us when he's yet to pitch above AA.

I'm reluctant to push Bard too quickly but I do see where he's got the makeup of a reliver who moves quickly through the system (e.g., Jenks in 2005). The point that I agree with lil'papi about is that we have compiled some consistently awful experiences with Hansen in MLB but we have no idea about Bard. If he's able to reproduce his minor league success in the way that Hansen could not, then we're much better off.

What I believe that Bard has on his side is that he has much more of a classic, fluid delivery. He can repeat it regularly. Much of his past problem came from the demands of starting and getting to three and four offspeed pitches. As a reliever he can blow guys away at 98 with only one half decent offspeed pitch. The demands are different now and that, more than anything, explains the difference this year.

I might split the difference, getting him up to MLB late in the season. If he arrives around the time of the call ups then he could come in with no more expectation that someone like Jeff Bailey.

lil'papi
07-08-2008, 09:12 AM
Masterson goes to AAA to get some relief work, as I mentioned. Bard can now keep improving working on things. A late callup if someone else falters makes sense.

Buchholz also makes sense as rhythm is not getting consistent innings , but getting consistent release points and confidence. He has done that. As evidenced by his progress.

Colon is the one guy that makes me wonder. Do they trade him or play him. Trading him makes sense if its to get another half season player. Otherwise lets see him again.

He might be expendable if Buchholz comes on strong. I think bringing up guys from AAA makes sense lets see which one can get'er done. Hansen isn't.....maybe we catch a break.

RedSoxtober
07-08-2008, 09:47 AM
I won't be shocked to see Colon move to the BP as well. There was some pre-season buzz about the idea and he's now at a point where it seems it'd be easier to prep him for short stints rather than try to keep him stretched out (like Stretch Armstrong... he keeps shrinking back to that squatty, dough-like state).

I think he could be effective if he got on a Paps routine where he were scheduled to throw MR/SU every other day. It wouldn't be too far off from throwing sides but he would do it over shorter period.

tc2deuce
07-08-2008, 10:19 AM
Timlin-OUT
Hansen -OUT



53 David Aardsma RP
17 Manny Delcarmen RP
48 Javier Lopez RP
37 Hideki Okajima RP
58 Jonathan Papelbon
Either Masterson or Clay Buchholz to the pen:clap:

yaowowrocket11
07-08-2008, 10:39 AM
I think that acquiring Dasamo Marte or someone like him would be great. We need another quality set up man to back up Okajima.

knittingmill
07-08-2008, 11:02 AM
i doubt colon'll be tradeable on or just coming off the DL. i also imagine once every 5 days is easier on his petite physique.

bagwell368
07-08-2008, 11:25 AM
i doubt colon'll be tradeable on or just coming off the DL. i also imagine once every 5 days is easier on his petite physique.

Err dude, your post was ok once, but 3 times?

Colon is not a relief guy, maybe in the playoffs if they are looking for a 4 inning guy in a blow out, but, he's way to brittle otherwise.

Masterson is going to be the new ace in the pen. If that fails, then a trade for a RP.

Simple...

KmB728
07-08-2008, 01:55 PM
we could atleast try colon in the pen... it couldnt hurt

RedSoxtober
07-08-2008, 02:02 PM
A side session for a starter is not categorically different than a relief appearance if it's done regularly. The adrenaline pumps more but the total number of pitches isn't substantially different.

lil'papi
07-09-2008, 09:12 AM
Not like he would be used daily either?! He could easily translate to the pen. He actually is intriquing used that way.
We need guys that get us DEEP into games more often than not can Colon do that is the question. I'd say from the past not likely. He could go jack right out of the box in relief 96mph....97mph...no reason to hold back.

Him and adrenaline.....he doesn't look like he ever had an adrenaline rush ever. Maybe a sugar rush....

cocossox
07-09-2008, 01:53 PM
I think that acquiring Dasamo Marte or someone like him would be great. We need another quality set up man to back up Okajima.i 100% agree I've been saying Marte all along.

Ewagner
07-09-2008, 02:22 PM
i agree with marte. i think the league has caught up with oki. i believe you will see bard by the end of the season. every good playoff team has an ace in there pocket for the bullpen when the playoffs come about. look at the rockies last year and the angels when they won it and brought up k-rod. the sox just don't want guys to get a look at him to early. let bard come up in september for that playoff push. as long as we stay within striking distance of the rays and the yank's stay far enough back i think marte will be all we need.

Sc00py
07-09-2008, 06:06 PM
Marte would be a decent pickup. I don't know about Colon in the bullpen...has be ever pitched out of the pen before?? It really isn't the same as throwing a side session, that seems like a ridiculous comparison.

Sc00py
07-09-2008, 06:08 PM
Timlin seems like he has been pitching better since off the DL. He was lights out on his stint in the minors, and it may have carried over. Having him back to normal would be a big pickup in-of-itself.

cocossox
07-09-2008, 07:45 PM
Timlin seems like he has been pitching better since off the DL. He was lights out on his stint in the minors, and it may have carried over. Having him back to normal would be a big pickup in-of-itself.I like Timlin hes had some good years with us but I have 0 trust in him at this point wouldn't matter how good hes been

RedSoxRok34
07-09-2008, 11:27 PM
i think timlin's just plain out of gas. he's got over 1,000 career appearances, he may just have finally worn it out.

kazzy4080
07-09-2008, 11:43 PM
anyone think we might trade colon for a good bull pen arm?

lil'papi
07-10-2008, 08:13 AM
i think timlin's just plain out of gas. he's got over 1,000 career appearances, he may just have finally worn it out.

Timlin hit 95mph yesterday several times. He has his velocity back, but I'm not sold yet. He is throwing WAYYY better than before.
He is locating well for two innings anyway.:rolleyes:

lil'papi
07-11-2008, 09:39 AM
Marte I watched last night.....what would it take to get him? 95-96mph and serious movement. He would be fun at Fenway all juiced up.

I also heard a bunch of teams are hunting him. What does Pittsburgh need? or need the most....

Tragedy
07-11-2008, 10:58 AM
Marte I watched last night.....what would it take to get him? 95-96mph and serious movement. He would be fun at Fenway all juiced up.

I also heard a bunch of teams are hunting him. What does Pittsburgh need? or need the most....
But probably just anything young. I think they'd be willing to take any position player, because they have very few set in stone for the next couple of years.

This is the one guy I would love to have, and we can all agree it probably won't end up like Eric Gagne.

lil'papi
07-13-2008, 09:22 AM
But probably just anything young. I think they'd be willing to take any position player, because they have very few set in stone for the next couple of years.

This is the one guy I would love to have, and we can all agree it probably won't end up like Eric Gagne.

He looked really tough on LH batters. 96mph translates nicely too. He would get JACKED up at Fenway...him and Paps we could have the nasty boys.

They should ante up for him. Not sure what it takes , but we have chips that might help them now. Zink, Moss, Pauley......Carter....etc.

Throw in a young prospect.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/marteda01.shtml

He has been consistent too.