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carruthers32
07-02-2008, 05:31 PM
After the Calderon, Ukic, Adams and Jawaii signings, how much cap space do we have left?

B2B
07-02-2008, 05:40 PM
After the Calderon, Ukic, Adams and Jawaii signings, how much cap space do we have left?

Calderon is signed to the Larry Bird exception which allows a team to sign it's own player without affecting the cap.

Adams & Jawai r signed to the MSE which has no limit to the amount of players that can be signed so it doesn't affect the cap.

Ukic was a first round pick by the raps if I'm not mistaken making him eligable to the rookie exception which also is not counted against the cap.

With Delfino's Qualifying offer of 2.7 mil on the table if he doesn't accept we will have 3 mil to spend + the full MLE.

That's my understanding of our situation but I can be wrong.

Ragun
07-02-2008, 05:56 PM
Calderon is signed to the Larry Bird exception which allows a team to sign it's own player without affecting the cap.

Adams & Jawai r signed to the MSE which has no limit to the amount of players that can be signed so it doesn't affect the cap.

Ukic was a first round pick by the raps if I'm not mistaken making him eligable to the rookie exception which also is not counted against the cap.

With Delfino's Qualifying offer of 2.7 mil on the table if he doesn't accept we will have 3 mil to spend + the full MLE.

That's my understanding of our situation but I can be wrong.

if thats maggette, maggette should be our #1 priority now.

JermanJaysFan
07-02-2008, 06:28 PM
Calderon is signed to the Larry Bird exception which allows a team to sign it's own player without affecting the cap.

Adams & Jawai r signed to the MSE which has no limit to the amount of players that can be signed so it doesn't affect the cap.

Ukic was a first round pick by the raps if I'm not mistaken making him eligable to the rookie exception which also is not counted against the cap.

With Delfino's Qualifying offer of 2.7 mil on the table if he doesn't accept we will have 3 mil to spend + the full MLE.

That's my understanding of our situation but I can be wrong.

I think you are wrong. All of those players do count against our cap number- those players' (Calderon, Adams, Jawai, Ukic) do increase our cap total. It is just that- as Larry Bird, Minimum Salary, Draft Pick, and also Draft Pick players respectively- these guys are allowed to be signed even though we are over the cap. It doesn't mean that these guys don't count against the cap, just that we can sign then regardless of our cap situation.

ramz.n
07-02-2008, 06:38 PM
all i know is we still have our MLE which is around 5-6m and i still think its possible for the Raptors to get Maggette..Brand and Davis took less money because they thought they could win together..look in hockey..Marian signed a 1 year deal worth 7.4m to win a championship...maybe we could sign Magette for 1 year with our MLE and see if we can go asll the way..Apparently the spurs are the front runners but they are an old group who seem to be on the decline...raptors would be a good situation :D

carruthers32
07-02-2008, 06:57 PM
I cant see us going into 08/09 with only 2 PG's, one who is unproven, so we will definatley add a third PG.

TO Fan
07-02-2008, 07:15 PM
I think you are wrong. All of those players do count against our cap number- those players' (Calderon, Adams, Jawai, Ukic) do increase our cap total. It is just that- as Larry Bird, Minimum Salary, Draft Pick, and also Draft Pick players respectively- these guys are allowed to be signed even though we are over the cap. It doesn't mean that these guys don't count against the cap, just that we can sign then regardless of our cap situation.

Well put...everyone goes against the cap, but these exceptions allow teams to sign players even if they are over the cap. I did a little analysis with current cap situation and all these signings (excepton of MLE) and I believe we are well over cap and a little bit under luxury tax threshold.

JermanJaysFan
07-02-2008, 08:04 PM
all i know is we still have our MLE which is around 5-6m and i still think its possible for the Raptors to get Maggette..Brand and Davis took less money because they thought they could win together..look in hockey..Marian signed a 1 year deal worth 7.4m to win a championship...maybe we could sign Magette for 1 year with our MLE and see if we can go asll the way..Apparently the spurs are the front runners but they are an old group who seem to be on the decline...raptors would be a good situation :D
I am sure Maggette would much much rather go to the team with three championships since '03 than the team with zero all time.

Numbers
07-02-2008, 08:38 PM
Toronto is already over the cap.
They only had minimal space if any and the MLE would need to be used to sign Jawai and Ukic (as they are both second round draft picks and the rookie exception would not apply) and Hassan.

At present all reports are that Colangelo is awaiting news of the luxury tax figure before moving ahead to sign any more end of benchers to fill out the roster.

The only relief the Raptors may get is if Delfino signs with another team and the qualifying offer extended to him comes off the salary calculation.

Remember the exceptions allow teams to go over the cap but do not remove the application of the luxury tax.

I am surprised that this is still being dicussed and people are proposing the signings they are. Doug Smith has been writing in the blog over and over that there was no cash to spend and that the MLE would be used for Ukic and other minor signings.

MLSE will not pay luxury tax for the Raptors roster unless the team has a chance at a championship or the Raptors are making Maple Leaf type money. So don't buy your Maggette Jerseys just yet cause he ain't coming, but you could probably get a Hassan Adams jersey cheap (less letters).

Honest Truth
07-02-2008, 10:02 PM
Toronto is already over the cap.
They only had minimal space if any and the MLE would need to be used to sign Jawai and Ukic (as they are both second round draft picks and the rookie exception would not apply) and Hassan.

At present all reports are that Colangelo is awaiting news of the luxury tax figure before moving ahead to sign any more end of benchers to fill out the roster.

The only relief the Raptors may get is if Delfino signs with another team and the qualifying offer extended to him comes off the salary calculation.

Remember the exceptions allow teams to go over the cap but do not remove the application of the luxury tax.

I am surprised that this is still being dicussed and people are proposing the signings they are. Doug Smith has been writing in the blog over and over that there was no cash to spend and that the MLE would be used for Ukic and other minor signings.

MLSE will not pay luxury tax for the Raptors roster unless the team has a chance at a championship or the Raptors are making Maple Leaf type money. So don't buy your Maggette Jerseys just yet cause he ain't coming, but you could probably get a Hassan Adams jersey cheap (less letters).

Bravo! Thank you for being one of the other people in this forum who understands the financial situation the Raptors are in and how it prevents them from making some of these moves. The remaining roster spots will be filled with likely non-impact players. The team is what it is for the most part. Enjoy it.

khanraymond
07-02-2008, 10:53 PM
Toronto is already over the cap.
They only had minimal space if any and the MLE would need to be used to sign Jawai and Ukic (as they are both second round draft picks and the rookie exception would not apply) and Hassan.

At present all reports are that Colangelo is awaiting news of the luxury tax figure before moving ahead to sign any more end of benchers to fill out the roster.

The only relief the Raptors may get is if Delfino signs with another team and the qualifying offer extended to him comes off the salary calculation.

Remember the exceptions allow teams to go over the cap but do not remove the application of the luxury tax.

I am surprised that this is still being dicussed and people are proposing the signings they are. Doug Smith has been writing in the blog over and over that there was no cash to spend and that the MLE would be used for Ukic and other minor signings.

MLSE will not pay luxury tax for the Raptors roster unless the team has a chance at a championship or the Raptors are making Maple Leaf type money. So don't buy your Maggette Jerseys just yet cause he ain't coming, but you could probably get a Hassan Adams jersey cheap (less letters).

very good post.

But the raptors may have some room for a decent signing if Delfino walks - for about 2-3 million. I know its not much, but I'm sure you can get someone good for that.

argo
07-02-2008, 11:01 PM
if thats maggette, maggette should be our #1 priority now.

doesn't look like we'll be getting any big name free agents.. this is from doug smith's blog today:

"Of course, Jose wouldnít say on his blog how much the dealís worth or how long itís for but Iíd be shocked if it was for less than $8 million a season and if it didnít run for four years with maybe an option of a fifth. But thatís just deductive reasoning, no one whoís in a position to know has ever mentioned those terms.

Guess weíll find out soon, though, Ďcause thatís what we do.

-

Whatís it all mean?

Not much that hasn't been said, given that we all expected it forever.

It does, as weíve mentioned, oh, about a billion times over the last five or six days, take the Raptors out of any significant role in the rest of free agency.

So that means, given the tax concerns and the current payroll that all those questions about Mickeal Pietrus, Bostjan Nachbar, Ron Artest, Chris Duhon, Corey Maggette are answered easily:

No. No. No. Not going to happen. Isnít possible. Put it out of your mind."

ramz.n
07-02-2008, 11:06 PM
I cant see us going into 08/09 with only 2 PG's, one who is unproven, so we will definatley add a third PG.

what do you mean..2 years ago we went in with T.j Ford who we knew had a serious injury and Calderon was our backup and he wasn't a proven player then..and you had Derrick MArtin as the 3rd string..even though Calderon wasn't proven he still got the minutes and thats where you learn from your mistakes and begin to get a feel for the game.

B2B
07-02-2008, 11:59 PM
NBA has set the salary cap at $55,630,000

Mid level Exception for over the cap is $5,356,000

Luxury tax threshold $67,865,000

With the one year qualifying offer to Delfino for $2,744,299 Raptors salaries = $55,802,202

http://blog.canoe.ca/courtside/2008/...etting_clearer

Which means we have no cap space my wording in my previous post is incorrect so I'll adjust it.

Do draft picks count against the team's salary cap? If so, how much?

Unsigned first round picks are included in team salary immediately upon their selection in the draft. They count as 100% of the scale salary for that pick, unless there is a verbal agreement for a higher salary. An incident occurred prior to the 1997-98 season when Vancouver's first round pick, Antonio Daniels, revealed in an interview that he and the team had verbally agreed to a contract starting at the maximum salary (120% of the scale amount). Since verbal agreements apply to the salary cap, the league then changed the team's cap figure from the scale amount to 120% of scale.
Once a first round pick signs a contract, his actual salary is included in the team salary, of course.

Unsigned second round picks are not included in team salary. This is a loophole that Houston once tried to use by trading a first round pick for a second round pick in order to clear cap room.

Ukic was drafted in the second round of the 2005 draft so his salary is also not included in team salary.

How are draft picks handled in trades?

Draft picks (both first and second round) count $0 for salary matching purposes. This is true both before and after the draft, until the player signs a contract. This can make it very difficult to construct a trade that is equitable in both trade value and basketball talent. For example, Vancouver selected Steve Francis with the #2 pick in the 1999 draft, and traded his draft rights to Houston. When the trade was finally engineered, it included three teams (Orlando was also involved), 11 players (including Francis) and two future draft picks.

Once the draft pick signs a contract, his actual salary becomes his trade value.

Note that even though a draft pick's trade value (for salary matching purposes) is $0, a first round pick is included in the team's team salary at 100% of his scale amount once he is selected in the draft, unless he signs with a non-NBA team (see question number 41). If an unsigned first round draft pick is traded, then 100% of his scale amount is included in the acquiring team's team salary as soon as the trade is completed. An unsigned second round pick does not count toward team salary.

{Lopez #17} for {Jawai #41} being a second rounder his salary is not included in team salary.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#42

Adams was signed to the MSE for I think 800,000 similar to Moon because we used our BAE last year.

Calderon was signed to the Lary Bird exception I believe his contract is 6.6 mil for this year (Assuming)

Between Calderon & Adams lets say it's 7.5 mil

Our current standing with Delfino's qualifying offer is: $55,802,202

$55,802,202
+$7,500,000 for both Calderon & Adams
-------------
= $63,302,202
- $4,350,000 Garbajosa's "Luxury tax Amnesty Provision" for being waived
-------------
= $58,952,202
$67,865,000 = Luxury tax threshold

Were 3 mil over the cap but roughly 9 mil under the luxury tax threshold.

JermanJaysFan does that look more correct?.

pulzar
07-03-2008, 12:04 AM
Salaries next year (source for most: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm)



O'Neal $21.3M
Bosh $14.4M
Calderon $8.0M (estimated)
Kapono $5.8M
Bargnani $5.1M
Parker $4.5M
Garbajosa $4.3M
Delfino $2.7M (qualifying)
Humphries $2.5M
Moon $0.7M
Ukic $0.7M (not sure?)
Adams $0.7M


That puts us at $70.7M. Last year, the cap was at $55.6M, luxury tax at $67.8M.

So, we'll only have a little bit of room to breathe if the luxury tax cap goes up significantly *and* if Delfino takes another offer. Otherwise, that last player will be a minimum-salary player at best.

Calderon's salary this year might be a bit lower, though, as it probably averages $8M over a few years.

pulzar
07-03-2008, 12:11 AM
- $4,350,000 Garbajosa's "Luxury tax Amnesty Provision" for being waived


My understanding is that the amnesty was a one-time thing in 2005, and Raptors used it on Alonzo Mourning.. So, I don't think we can use it again. Right?

B2B
07-03-2008, 12:12 AM
Salaries next year (source for most: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm)



O'Neal $21.3M
Bosh $14.4M
Calderon $8.0M (estimated)
Kapono $5.8M
Bargnani $5.1M
Parker $4.5M
Garbajosa $4.3M
Delfino $2.7M (qualifying)
Humphries $2.5M
Moon $0.7M
Ukic $0.7M (not sure?)
Hassan $0.7M


That puts us at $70.7M. Last year, the cap was at $55.6M, luxury tax at $67.8M.

So, we'll only have a little bit of room to breathe if the luxury tax cap goes up significantly *and* if Delfino takes another offer. Otherwise, that last player will be a minimum-salary player at best.

Calderon's salary this year might be a bit lower, though, as it probably averages $8M over a few years.

What about Garbajosa 4 mil amnesty provision for being waved or does that not count?.

B2B
07-03-2008, 12:13 AM
My understanding is that the amnesty was a one-time thing in 2005, and Raptors used it on Alonzo Mourning.. So, I don't think we can use it again. Right?

I'm really not sure I'm new to this and I'm trying to learn the ins & outs of the rules.

pulzar
07-03-2008, 12:14 AM
From that web page you quoted:

18. What is the luxury tax amnesty provision?

This was a one-time opportunity for teams to waive one player and avoid having that player count in the team's luxury tax computation. Teams had the opportunity to use this provision between August 2nd and 15th, 2005 (right after the CBA went into effect). It could be used only for players signed or acquired prior to June 21, 2005, or for players already waived when the current CBA went into effect. A team could waive only one player using this provision.

B2B
07-03-2008, 12:18 AM
From that web page you quoted:

18. What is the luxury tax amnesty provision?

This was a one-time opportunity for teams to waive one player and avoid having that player count in the team's luxury tax computation. Teams had the opportunity to use this provision between August 2nd and 15th, 2005 (right after the CBA went into effect). It could be used only for players signed or acquired prior to June 21, 2005, or for players already waived when the current CBA went into effect. A team could waive only one player using this provision.

I read the rule but didn't know we had already used it.

JermanJaysFan
07-03-2008, 07:09 AM
I read the rule but didn't know we had already used it.

Regardless of whether we used it or not, it was only available for a limited time anyways.

JermanJaysFan
07-03-2008, 07:14 AM
Adams was signed to the MSE for I think 800,000 similar to Moon because we used our BAE last year.

Calderon was signed to the Lary Bird exception I believe his contract is 6.6 mil for this year (Assuming)

Between Calderon & Adams lets say it's 7.5 mil

Our current standing with Delfino's qualifying offer is: $55,802,202

$55,802,202
+$7,500,000 for both Calderon & Adams
-------------
= $63,302,202
- $4,350,000 Garbajosa's "Luxury tax Amnesty Provision" for being waived
-------------
= $58,952,202
$67,865,000 = Luxury tax threshold

Were 3 mil over the cap but roughly 9 mil under the luxury tax threshold.

JermanJaysFan does that look more correct?.

It looks like you treated all the rules correctly besides Garbo's "Amnesty Provision" not being available. I don't have time to add up all th salaries for myself, but it looks like you at least have the right idea with the calculations. I think you can count on more dollars than 6.6 million for Jose this year.

pulzar
07-03-2008, 12:51 PM
The $55.8M base figure is not right, though... It doesn't include Humphries at all, and it also assumes that O'Neal's salary is the same as TJ + Rasho + Maceo, which it isn't... It's actually a few million more.

babyshaq87
07-03-2008, 01:03 PM
i think we have only the MLE.. we have nothing more.. it's not enough for maggette but it's too much for players like pietrus or barnes..

pebloemer
07-03-2008, 01:39 PM
i think we have only the MLE.. we have nothing more.. it's not enough for maggette but it's too much for players like pietrus or barnes..

we don't actually have much of the MLE left. Doug Smith writes a good blog entry about MLE and raptors cap space, etc.

http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/

pulzar
07-03-2008, 03:31 PM
i think we have only the MLE.. we have nothing more.. it's not enough for maggette but it's too much for players like pietrus or barnes..

Although we do have it, we're at the luxury tax limit... so we are allowed to sign somebody to MLE contract, but we'd actually be paying 2x the salary. As Doug Smith writes, Raptors aren't going to do that.

aman_13
07-03-2008, 04:21 PM
From the players Doug Smith was mentioning, i would take Eddie House. He is a pure shooter, but he is one of those players that can give you instant offense off the bench. I thought he was pretty good in the playoffs for the Celtics. He also like Doug Smith was saying is one of those players that can steal a couple of games for us in the season.

pulzar
07-03-2008, 04:38 PM
Out of those choices, I'd probably take him, too -- although he wouldn't be the best fit.. Yes, he'd provide some instant offense from time to time, but for those times when one of our two PGs is injured, he's not going to be a very good backup.

Delfino was nice to have for that reason -- he was actually quite decent in the backup PG role.

aman_13
07-03-2008, 04:43 PM
^True

_Sn1P3r_
07-03-2008, 05:30 PM
I cant see us going into 08/09 with only 2 PG's, one who is unproven, so we will definatley add a third PG.

I agree. But i still think a slasher is our first priority.

ramz.n
07-03-2008, 05:34 PM
Bring MArtin back !! anyone with me ? =P

JermanJaysFan
07-03-2008, 05:56 PM
Out of those choices, I'd probably take him, too -- although he wouldn't be the best fit.. Yes, he'd provide some instant offense from time to time, but for those times when one of our two PGs is injured, he's not going to be a very good backup.

Delfino was nice to have for that reason -- he was actually quite decent in the backup PG role.

Eddie House can run the point decently in my opinion- just dump it in to one of the twin towers, and then he becomes a deadly catch-and-shoot guy. Doc Rivers gave him significant time at the point in big games when Rondo wasn't getting it done in the playoffs.