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View Full Version : LAST CALL! a lot of sox are getting....



whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 03:08 PM
snubbed.

im calling it right now, atleast 3 players on our team are going to be robbed of a spot on the all star team and ill tell u who they are right now.

Quentin- only josh hamilton has been the better AL OF, but watch he wont make it. manny and ichiro get the other starting spots

Pierzynki- only mauer has had a better season in the AL, but who wants to bet jason ****ing varitek who has sucked all year beats both mauer and aj out

Cabrera- only michael young has had a better season at SS, and who wants to bet derek jeter and his 4HRs beat out both.

i hate the all star game because the right players never get selected.

anyways id just like to point out today is the last day to vote and im sure we need some help.

if youd like to get a last minute vote in this is the homepage, its right on the top of the headlines

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=cws

JDIsMyGod23
07-02-2008, 03:10 PM
I haven't even voted this year because I hate the concept so ****ing much. Haha

sager729
07-02-2008, 03:14 PM
I think as soon as the All Star game meant something, it should be the players voting for their league's starters and the manager of the WS team the year before pick the rest. I think that will make it a lot more fair to some players.

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 03:14 PM
Posada's been better htan AJ, though hurt for half the 1st half

Cabrera?

Orlando Cabrera?

Yeah, Jeter's better than him, easily



Quentin you are 100% right, but I think the coaches will put him in

blams
07-02-2008, 03:18 PM
Posada's been better htan AJ, though hurt for half the 1st half

Cabrera?

Orlando Cabrera?

Yeah, Jeter's better than him, easily



Quentin you are 100% right, but I think the coaches will put him in

Jeter is a hof ss, but he is worse than ever now, a bad fielder at this point, there was even talk of moving him. he is only hitting 280 as well.

cabrera has been a stud at ss, nothing less. i know u think he is a terrible hitter, but he has been on fire for a while now, not to mention ayer's clutch hit.

he is not an allstar, almost every year. but this year he is the 2nd best ss in the al.

whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 03:19 PM
Posada's been better htan AJ, though hurt for half the 1st half

Cabrera?

Orlando Cabrera?

Yeah, Jeter's better than him, easily



Quentin you are 100% right, but I think the coaches will put him in

key word with posada is hurt, u cant say oh if he would have been healthy he should be there.

thats like saying, well ryan doumit would have made the all star team if he was healthy. i dont think players who miss an entire month before the ASG can just be voted on, staying healthy is apart of the game isnt it?

with ocab

he has more walks than jeter by 4
more SBs than jeter by 7
more HRs than jeter by 2
more runs than jeter by 4

less rbis by 2
less BA by .07

and yes jeters OPS is about 30 points higher.

that one may be closer than i thought, i still dont think its right jeter will blow cabrera away when the numbers are pretty close. furthermore michael young is having a better season than both HES the one who should start

and ill bet u any sig u want micheal young doesnt

chisox..YES!
07-02-2008, 03:25 PM
I will just be pissed if only one white sox player goes and it is jenks...

I hope quentin gets picked

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 03:25 PM
Raw numbers are terrible measures, you seem to have missed that Jeter has played 6 less games than Cabrera

The only raw numbers that couldn't be overtaken there is the SB's

Convenient to also ignore the raw numbers Jeter has more like 3 3B's to OC's 0

He has a .013 OBP advantage and a .016 SLG advantage (more important than just HR's, 2B's or 3B's by themselves)

No argument on Young, I'd say 8/10 of the starts that should start, don't (including DH), people being snubbed is nothing new

whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 03:29 PM
Raw numbers are terrible measures, you seem to have missed that Jeter has played 6 less games than Cabrera

The only raw numbers that couldn't be overtaken there is the SB's

Convenient to also ignore the raw numbers Jeter has more like 3 3B's to OC's 0

He has a .013 OBP advantage and a .016 SLG advantage (more important than just HR's, 2B's or 3B's by themselves)

No argument on Young, I'd say 8/10 of the starts that should start, don't (including DH), people being snubbed is nothing new

we'll there needs to be a better system set up so this doesnt happen

my point is that u said jeter is EASILY the better SS. he isnt easily better than ****, him and cabrera arent that different.

also raw numbers, are usually the one that makes the bigger impacts dont u think?

dont u think HRs are more valuble than 2Bs and 3Bs. that maybe SB actually are valuble.

i guess none of that matters though since the iso drop ranking on the plus scale with credits to rate 7 stats inconjuction with the j scale cleary show jeter is easily the better player.

because all those stats mean more than raw stats! ;)

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 03:33 PM
also raw numbers, are usually the one that makes the bigger impacts dont u think?
No, because you have to consider the per game impact, which is why rate stats are better
dont u think HRs are more valuble than 2Bs and 3Bs. that maybe SB actually are valuble.

Honestly I'm not shocked you say HR's and SB's are more valuable since OC leads in those 2

Sure, HRs' are better than 3B's, 3B's are better than 2B's, 2B's better than 1B's, but is 2 HR's better than 3 3B's?...it's a question you have to figure out
SB's are valuable, just that 12 SB's isn't jack ****, it's not worth much of anything in value


Rate stats are more important than raw stats in general, sorry that it didn't work out to make your original statement right, but fighting it won't change that Jeter's .030 point OPS advantage is quite clear

whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 03:37 PM
No, because you have to consider the per game impact, which is why rate stats are better
Honestly I'm not shocked you say HR's and SB's are more valuable since OC leads in those 2

Sure, HRs' are better than 3B's, 3B's are better than 2B's, 2B's better than 1B's, but is 2 HR's better than 3 3B's?...it's a question you have to figure out
SB's are valuable, just that 12 SB's isn't jack ****, it's not worth much of anything in value


Rate stats are more important than raw stats in general, sorry that it didn't work out to make your original statement right, but fighting it won't change that Jeter's .030 point OPS advantage is quite clear

again though, jetes ops is about 30 points higher and his raw stats arent that much different

explain to me why someone with better rate stats should be beating someone out with better raw stats, thats just stupid.

and again im just pointing out, u said EASILY the better SS, he isnt EASILY the better SS.

btw id like to point out the Tampa Bay Rays have the best record in baseball, and lead the league in SBs, im sure there is a million different rate stats that show why that doesnt matter but again. im going to take raw stats over rate stats any day.

its called using ur eyes when u watch the game instead of thinking of some formula a guy in his basement came up with. sure jeters numbers are slightly better than cabreras but BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POINT

HE ISNT EASILY! better than Cabrera

JDIsMyGod23
07-02-2008, 03:41 PM
Jeter Rate2 = 84

OC Rate2= 115

OC FTW!

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 03:43 PM
explain to me why someone with better rate stats should be beating someone out with better raw statsBecause in 6 games, when you compare Jeter's raw numbers to OC's raw numbers right now, there will be a difference in favor of Jeter
btw id like to point out the Tampa Bay Rays have the best record in baseball, and lead the league in SBs, im sure there is a million different rate stats that show why that doesnt matter but again. im going to take raw stats over rate stats any day.
TB also has the 4th best pitching in all of baseball and a solid offense

The other teams atop the SB leaderboard for teams: Houston, NYM, LAD, there is no real sign that SB's correlates to wins at all

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 03:44 PM
Jeter Rate2 = 84

OC Rate2= 115

OC FTW!
Not arguing defense, OC has a clear edge in that, but I'll sacrifice defense for 1 game (which is all the AS game is) for the improved offense

JDIsMyGod23
07-02-2008, 03:45 PM
I thought we were just comparing the two overall this season. I didn't read everything.

whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 03:47 PM
Because in 6 games, when you compare Jeter's raw numbers to OC's raw numbers right now, there will be a difference in favor of JeterTB also has the 4th best pitching in all of baseball and a solid offense

The other teams atop the SB leaderboard for teams: Houston, NYM, LAD, there is no real sign that SB's correlates to wins at all

im sure if someone looked hard enough and came up with their own rate stats they could find some reason as to why SBs is the key to wins.

all those formulas are just bogus everytime i get into an argument with u it just becomes a difference in philosophy. so ill just leave it at this

the raw stats i think are the best way to judge because the fact jeter missed 6 more games than cabrera should be part of the ASG equation.

jeters raw numbers arent as good as cabreras

cabreras defense is far and away better using ur same rate stats

so again.

you cant say jeter IS EASILY better than cabrera

thats just stupid

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 03:47 PM
I thought we were just comparing the two overall this season. I didn't read everything.
We are, but I think defense is a given

I just like how WSF is ignoring the OPS difference, bringing raw stats and saying those are more important

whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 03:47 PM
Not arguing defense, OC has a clear edge in that, but I'll sacrifice defense for 1 game (which is all the AS game is) for the improved offense

shouldnt it be about the total packege though for the ASG?

whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 03:48 PM
We are, but I think defense is a given

I just like how WSF is ignoring the OPS difference, bringing raw stats and saying those are more important

UMMM BECAUSE THEY ARE!

RBIS HRS RUNS all mean more than whatever rate numbers say, RAW NUMBERS WIN THE GAMES! OPS SLG they dont win ****, there just another way to measure the raw stats

whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 03:49 PM
again im just leaving it at this and i will say nothing more

its ignorant and stupid to say jeter has easily had the better season

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 03:52 PM
im sure if someone looked hard enough and came up with their own rate stats they could find some reason as to why SBs is the key to wins.
The correlation has been shown this winter, it was next to nothing

In Brian Roberts 50 SB 7 CS year the numbers didn't even add to 1 win overall
all those formulas are just bogus everytime i get into an argument with u it just becomes a difference in philosophy. so ill just leave it at thisYeah, your philosophy pushed for Jerry Owens over Carlos Quentin all winter...
the raw stats i think are the best way to judge because the fact jeter missed 6 more games than cabrera should be part of the ASG equation.
No, it really shouldn't...the difference of dozens of games should certainly, not 6
you cant say jeter IS EASILY better than cabrera

Yes, I can

You were the one who insinuated that Jeter didn't deserve it, he does, he's statistically the 2nd best SS from what I can see

If you want another SS I'd probably take over Cabrera, it's Julio Lugo, same OPS but his is OBP driven

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 03:53 PM
UMMM BECAUSE THEY ARE!

RBIS HRS RUNS all mean more than whatever rate numbers say, RAW NUMBERS WIN THE GAMES! OPS SLG they dont win ****, there just another way to measure the raw stats
I thought you were better than this...you've reverted to judging on the triple crown stats because it helps one of your players...call Jerry Owens up and talk to him for a while
shouldnt it be about the total packege though for the ASG?
Sure, but I'm not holding defensive prowess near the level that offensive ability is

JDIsMyGod23
07-02-2008, 03:53 PM
Please say that last sentence in the Red Sox forum. PLEASE!

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 03:54 PM
Please say that last sentence in the Red Sox forum. PLEASE!
Hey I'm not saying it's good, both are below .700 OPS guys with strong gloves, but Lugo's OBP driven OPS is better than Cabrera's recently improved SLG-based OPS

DaSox_05
07-02-2008, 03:55 PM
I think Jermaine Dye should definitely be on the team hope he doesnt get snubbed!!!

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 03:56 PM
I think Jermaine Dye should definitely be on the team hope he doesnt get snubbed!!!
Good choice for a spot, it could very well be between him and Q for the last spot

whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 03:58 PM
julio lugo?

alright there really is no point in arguing with u at all

whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 04:01 PM
I thought you were better than this...you've reverted to judging on the triple crown stats because it helps one of your players...call Jerry Owens up and talk to him for a whileSure, but I'm not holding defensive prowess near the level that offensive ability is

runs rbis and hrs?

when did they become triple crown stats

arent u forgetting average? or is that really what the triple crown stats are :rolleyes:

lugo is not better than cabrera

and jeter is not easily better

instead of doing math formulas or reading other peoples work how about i dunno, watching them? maybe actually WATCHING the players play?

its just too easy to judge everyone as a stat, and frankly isnt fair, julio lugo is not better than orlando cabrera i dont care what the OPS says

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 04:19 PM
when did they become triple crown stats
Hr's and RBI's have always been

I didn't say only the TC stats, you're using triple crown stats though, and they are horribly measures on players
lugo is not better than cabreraWhy?
instead of doing math formulas or reading other peoples work how about i dunno, watching them? maybe actually WATCHING the players play?
Because watching creates bias, without playing on the exact same team in the same game at the same time at the same positon (impossible) then watching isn't really relevant to judging players FOR THE MAJORITY

What is watching going to do, you remember hte good plays and forget all the bad unless they are atrocious plays of the year and you forget all the middle times when it's not great or awful
its just too easy to judge everyone as a stat, and frankly isnt fair, julio lugo is not better than orlando cabrera i dont care what the OPS saysActually, it's exactly fair...judging them on what you see is not fair

whitesoxfan83
07-02-2008, 04:26 PM
Hr's and RBI's have always been

I didn't say only the TC stats, you're using triple crown stats though, and they are horribly measures on playersWhy?Because watching creates bias, without playing on the exact same team in the same game at the same time at the same positon (impossible) then watching isn't really relevant to judging players FOR THE MAJORITY

What is watching going to do, you remember hte good plays and forget all the bad unless they are atrocious plays of the year and you forget all the middle times when it's not great or awfulActually, it's exactly fair...judging them on what you see is not fair

then i guess we should take the human element out of the game completly.

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 04:28 PM
then i guess we should take the human element out of the game completly.
In judging guys, for the most part, it's not a bad idea

The human element is reflected in the stats...how hard they appear to be playing, raw numbers from getting in 5 more games doesn't make one player better than another

WhiteSoxLifer
07-02-2008, 04:34 PM
[QUOTE=redwhitenblue;5705386]In judging guys, for the most part, it's not a bad idea



No its important all the time. Thats why general managers and scouts watch every player they want to draft or trade for. Not most of them.

1-800-STFU
07-02-2008, 04:34 PM
UMMM BECAUSE THEY ARE!

RBIS HRS RUNS all mean more than whatever rate numbers say, RAW NUMBERS WIN THE GAMES! OPS SLG they dont win ****, there just another way to measure the raw stats

The winning teams have the high OPS's, check it.

redwhitenblue
07-02-2008, 04:37 PM
No its important all the time. Thats why general managers and scouts watch every player they want to draft or trade for. Not most of them.
For drafting, it's also to look for strengths, weaknesses and possible alterations

WhiteSoxLifer
07-02-2008, 04:40 PM
Thank you for proving my point. Please, never again try to say that watching ANY player is not important.

And here is a hypothetical... You are building a team (not just being an idiot stat geek like usual). You are down to two SS, Cabrera and Lugo. Who do you take? Then you can tell us why Cabrera is better.

DaSox_05
07-02-2008, 04:48 PM
Perfect would be to ask Red Sauwx nation who would they want Cabrera or Lugo and I bet 100% would say Cabrera case closed!!!!!!

WhiteSoxLifer
07-02-2008, 04:54 PM
Thats if you live in the real world and WATCH baseball where raw state, rate stats, and intangibles all come together to create baseball players, right?

They all count RWB. You can try to tilt any player argument in your favor by spewing crap all over this thread, but when it comes down to it, most people (including you) know which players are better than whichever others. And OC is better than Lugo, and in the same neighborhood (now, not 5-10 years ago) as Jeter.

heroclassworker
07-02-2008, 04:56 PM
I have a feeling that were going to have to put CQ in the game ourselves ala Pierzynski and Posednik. To be fair Gavin Floyd and CQ are the only guys who should be their. I suppose you could make an argument for Crede too.

GrinderBall41
07-02-2008, 04:58 PM
Thank you for proving my point. Please, never again try to say that watching ANY player is not important.

And here is a hypothetical... You are building a team (not just being an idiot stat geek like usual). You are down to two SS, Cabrera and Lugo. Who do you take? Then you can tell us why Cabrera is better.

:clap:

Welcome to PSD.

Sounds to me like you've played the game before. A refreshing outlook.

WhiteSoxLifer
07-02-2008, 04:58 PM
I agree. Whether its OC, AJ, or Dye we will have one in the final vote. Lets get it done again. Carlos is hopefully a given.

WhiteSoxLifer
07-02-2008, 05:02 PM
Im not gonna lie. Im a baseball lifer at the age of 24. Ive been around baseball and pros my whole life. My dad is friends with Moose Skowrin from the South Side neighborhoods and i played with Ozzie's son in little league when Oz was witht he Sox. He helped coach the team. I have an unbiased and professional outloko and hate the slanted sabermetric approaches taken by people like RWB.

Thanks for the welcome. Ive read your posts for the last few months and enjoyed, but the "you dont have to watch players to understand their value" argument by RWB made me finall throw my hat in the ring.

WhiteSoxLifer
07-02-2008, 05:04 PM
Sorry if it sounded like bragging though. Just a little background and introduction from the new guy. Hope we can all have some good discussion in the future.

JDIsMyGod23
07-02-2008, 05:04 PM
Reading for awhile. You must realize how cool I am. :D. Welcome aboard.

GrinderBall41
07-02-2008, 05:07 PM
Sorry if it sounded like bragging though. Just a little background and introduction from the new guy. Hope we can all have some good discussion in the future.

Hit the intro thread!

WhiteSoxLifer
07-02-2008, 05:07 PM
The greatest... I was thinking about making my name "JDIsMyGod23IsMyGod"

1-800-STFU
07-02-2008, 05:07 PM
Sorry if it sounded like bragging though. Just a little background and introduction from the new guy. Hope we can all have some good discussion in the future.

Yeah welcome.

I am a big rate stat guy, but scouting overall is much more important. If you have good scouts, you don't draft Joe Borchard :mad:

I just think OBP/OPS takes a front seat to avg, HRs, RBIs and such.

JDIsMyGod23
07-02-2008, 05:09 PM
The greatest... I was thinking about making my name "JDIsMyGod23IsMyGod"

That'd easily be the tightest name in PSD history.

GrinderBall41
07-02-2008, 05:11 PM
The greatest... I was thinking about making my name "JDIsMyGod23IsMyGod"

:love:

kwstriker299
07-02-2008, 05:12 PM
^^haha

GrinderBall41
07-02-2008, 05:13 PM
^^haha

Couldn't find a smiley for "kiss-***" so kiss will do.

JDIsMyGod23
07-02-2008, 05:17 PM
Face it. You all love me. :D

1-800-STFU
07-02-2008, 05:19 PM
Face it. You all love me. :D

Next redraft you need to get me in on this.

I will turn everything around :pity:

1-800-STFU
07-02-2008, 05:20 PM
BTW your Ryan Howard trade was pure rape.

JDIsMyGod23
07-02-2008, 05:24 PM
BTW your Ryan Howard trade was pure rape.

For them?

Rizzorj
07-02-2008, 05:27 PM
Personally, I don't give a crap. Sure, I'd like to see the Sox players there....but sure as hell don't lose any sleep over it. It's all about politics as far as the voting goes. If O-Cab was hitting .400...Jeter would still get voted in as a starter. If anything, I pay more attention to who the managers select.

1-800-STFU
07-02-2008, 05:34 PM
For them?

No for you, Cliff Lee is a average 4 starter.

Plus Ryan Howard is a name. Those count for something sense everyone votes for the teams.

JDIsMyGod23
07-02-2008, 05:36 PM
No for you, Cliff Lee is a average 4 starter.

Plus Ryan Howard is a name. Those count for something sense everyone votes for the teams.

:up:

Yea, next time they have one we can run it. I failed by not selecting pitching. Never will I have that mistake again.

1-800-STFU
07-02-2008, 05:45 PM
Yeah you NEED a legit ace to win at all. A Halladay/beckett kind of guy that was done it for awhile.

Anyways people overvalue average starters(Cliff Lee) and you can take um out to the woodshed when they want pitching.

chisoxfan620
07-02-2008, 06:05 PM
Pierzynski and Dye are definitely worthy. I believe that one of those two should be in the final vote. Quentin will be in. Cabrera...not soo much.

whitesoxbowler
07-03-2008, 01:43 AM
So I realize that this discussion is kind of dead, but I have to give my .02 cents. There is a reason we have scouts. I have never heard of a player being drafted purely because a stat line says he's good. I don't think a player has ever been traded for, drafted, evaluated, etc. without being first seen in person by a rep. from the team that picks em up.

Duffy17
07-03-2008, 07:14 AM
What about Dye?

iDaBears85
07-03-2008, 03:02 PM
I'm thinking Quentin will be either the write in winner or picked by a coach. I doubt Dye will be picked by a coach even though he is having a great year again. I'm guessing that either Dye or AJ will be a last fan pick or if it is pitchers Jenks will be last pick (Although it should be Linebrink)