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View Full Version : Offense is the Problem...Not Pitching



laxman1017
06-29-2008, 03:11 PM
OK....so I am writing this in the 6th inning, with the Braves down 1-0 to the Bule Jays. Everyone who is watching the game knows, the game is over...Braves are done. They have NO ONE is the lineup who can score runs today. They pitch around Tex, and Mccann had his shot and missed. Game OVER. What does that say about our team when we know that???? All you guys like RTG that say that we need to add pitching are just simply wrong. We are going to get shut-out AGAIN....because our guys simply can't hit. Brandon Jones has looked horrible today, and honestly....he is going to average at BEST. Lilly has got to be traded...but I think every game he plays in the majors make his value drop...because the kid is just overmatched. We need to make a move sooooooon. Norton and Gotay can be released....honestly, I am just sick of having a million mediocre guys.

And by the way...if the Braves win....I will admit I was wrong...but I am not holding my breath :)

BravesFan4Life
06-29-2008, 03:25 PM
I agree with a lot of what you just said.. I feel that Norton is a good option off the bench, but a starter he is not.. Gotay will more then likely be released once Prado is able to come back.. Once Prado, Infante, and Escobar are back fully, they will send Lilly back down where he belongs.. He very well may end up a good minor league player, and a horrible big league player.. He is young though, and with experience comes better production.. This team is just in a downward spiral that they can't overcome.. Their season is done regardless if they are only a few games back in late June.. They don't have a good enough team to compete with the others..

tomno00
06-29-2008, 03:49 PM
barry lamar is sounding better and better

Bravesman11
06-29-2008, 03:50 PM
OK....so I am writing this in the 6th inning, with the Braves down 1-0 to the Bule Jays. Everyone who is watching the game knows, the game is over...Braves are done. They have NO ONE is the lineup who can score runs today. They pitch around Tex, and Mccann had his shot and missed. Game OVER. What does that say about our team when we know that???? All you guys like RTG that say that we need to add pitching are just simply wrong. We are going to get shut-out AGAIN....because our guys simply can't hit. Brandon Jones has looked horrible today, and honestly....he is going to average at BEST. Lilly has got to be traded...but I think every game he plays in the majors make his value drop...because the kid is just overmatched. We need to make a move sooooooon. Norton and Gotay can be released....honestly, I am just sick of having a million mediocre guys.

And by the way...if the Braves win....I will admit I was wrong...but I am not holding my breath :)

Let me tell you why you're wrong. Chipper, Yunel, Infante, Diaz, Prado, and Kotsay aren't playing. They only have Corky Miller on the bench. So you have a bunch of small ball guys playing besides Tex and McCann. The best we could have hoped for was manufacturing base-runners in scoring position for Tex and McCann. As it turned out, that did happen, but they chose to pitch around Tex and pitch to McCann. McCann couldn't get it done. You can't expect him to everytime.

Jo-Jo had an excellent outing, but we just got shut-out by an excellent pitcher with 11 K's. And don't say AGAIN, because we haven't been shut-out for two weeks.

And just because you want Gotay and Norton cut doesn't mean that it's going to happen. You can call them mediocre players, but they are all we have right now, and the reason they are struggling is because they are starting rather than being called to pinch hit. Their job is to bat once a game or fill in defensively after an injury, they aren't starters but we have to use them because all of our starters are injured. Besides, they actually got hits today as opposed to all the other starters (excepting Blanco).

You'll just have to deal with it. Sorry, all teams go through hardships like this.

tomno00
06-29-2008, 03:55 PM
what were we doing when we had all those players in our lineup??.... the fact is the braves absoultely suck at situational hitting, dont know how to bunt... you know the small things that win games.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 04:02 PM
Either way even with CHipper, Esco and Kotsay we were below .500. We need to go out and get another RIGHT HANDED bat. Lefties kill us.

Chipper and Tex may be switch hitters but their power is nullified from the RH side.

IMO RIght hand power bat= Division win.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 04:03 PM
Let me tell you why you're wrong. Chipper, Yunel, Infante, Diaz, and Kotsay aren't playing. They only have Corky Miller on the bench. So you have a bunch of small ball guys playing besides Tex and McCann. The best we could have hoped for was manufacturing base-runners in scoring position for Tex and McCann. As it turned out, that did happen, but they chose to pitch around Tex and pitch to McCann. McCann couldn't get it done. You can't expect him to everytime.

Jo-Jo had an excellent outing, but we just got shut-out by an excellent pitcher with 11 K's. And don't say AGAIN, because we haven't been shut-out for two weeks.

And just because you want Gotay and Norton cut doesn't mean that it's going to happen. You can call them mediocre players, but they are all we have right now, and the reason they are struggling is because they are starting rather than being called to pinch hit. Their job is to bat once a game or fill in defensively after an injury, they aren't starters but we have to use them because all of our starters are injured. Besides, they actually got hits today as opposed to all the other starters (excepting Blanco).

You'll just have to deal with it. Sorry, all teams go through hardships like this.

Chipper was playing everyday up until 8 games ago. We were still under .500 at 36-39. With Kotsay, when he was playing everyday, we were still around .500 at 28-24. With Escobar, we were still under .500 at 38-40. So what's going to change when they're healthy? Most of those 1-run losses came with these guys IN the lineup.

AJ Burnett is NOT an excellent pitcher. He's an injury-prone mediocre pitcher who was 7-7 with a 5 ERA and he made us look like we didn't belong in professional baseball. If Burnett is an excellent pitcher, then we just happen to run into a bunch of excellent mediocre pitchers because every time we face a guy with a 4+ ERA, they have the best game of their career and shut us down.

Again, we are not struggling simply because the backups are in. We're struggling because 3 of the key guys (McCann, Francoeur, Tex) aren't coming through when they are needed. Tex has heated up recently, but where was he when Chipper was being walked all the time? Tex was striking out. Where was McCann this weekend when they walked Tex? Striking out. Where has Jeff been this whole year? Killing every rally he can get his bat near. We have a great offense on paper and in the stat sheet until you get to the Runs category. No one can get that 1 extra hit we need to win a game.

BRAVE KID
06-29-2008, 04:10 PM
well with kotsay in the lineup we didn't have blanco leading off, but now since cox likes to have blanco leading off, we will have the lineup we would like to see.

blanco
esco
CJ
tex
b-mac
KJ/kotsay
franky
kotsay/kj
pitcher

sorry for having hope, but with guys in the right spot in the lineup I think it could change..I guess.

*sidenote* you seriously have some type of grudge with rtg don't ya laxman

Bravesman11
06-29-2008, 04:11 PM
what were we doing when we had all those players in our lineup??.... the fact is the braves absoultely suck at situational hitting, dont know how to bunt... you know the small things that win games.

A lot better than what happened today. And yes, they do know how to manufacture runs and situational hitting,

Chipper has a .300 average with RISP
Mark Kotsay has a .267 average with RISP
Yunel has a .309 average with RISP
Infante has a .277 average with RISP
Diaz has a .263 average with RISP
Prado has a .353 average with RISP (small spectrum)

Compare that to-

Francoeur- .213 with RISP (this year)
Jones- .283 with RISP
Lillibridge- .000 with RISP (four chances)
Gotay- .263 with RISP

So as you can see, our injuries have also affected our situational hitting as well.

As for the bunting issue. We played in an American league stadium today. Why bunt? The only bunter I recall seeing was Blanco, and he got a hit.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 04:14 PM
A lot better than what happened today. And yes, they do know how to manufacture runs and situational hitting,

Chipper has a .300 average with RISP
Mark Kotsay has a .267 average with RISP
Yunel has a .309 average with RISP
Infante has a .277 average with RISP
Diaz has a .263 average with RISP
Prado has a .353 average with RISP (small spectrum)

Compare that to-

Francoeur- .213 with RISP (this year)
Jones- .283 with RISP
Lillibridge- .000 with RISP (four chances)
Gotay- .263 with RISP

So as you can see, our injuries have also affected our situational hitting as well.

As for the bunting issue. We played in an American league stadium today. Why bunt? The only bunter I recall seeing was Blanco, and he got a hit.

2 of the 4 you listed in the 2nd group are as good as 2 of the guys you listed in the 1st group and Prado can just be stricken from the list due to the small sample size. Francoeur, though, is the guy who is struggling the worst AND gets more chances than anyone. Francoeur is the key and he won't be gone anytime soon so the offense won't change. Jeff will still come up in big chances an he will fail.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 04:16 PM
well with kotsay in the lineup we didn't have blanco leading off, but now since cox likes to have blanco leading off, we will have the lineup we would like to see.

blanco
esco
CJ
tex
b-mac
KJ/kotsay
franky
kotsay/kj
pitcher

sorry for having hope, but with guys in the right spot in the lineup I think it could change..I guess.

The problem hasn't been getting on base. We've been in the top of the majors all season in OBP. We can't get guys in and Francoeur is the guy who keeps failing and he isn't moved down or sat or anything. Until he either gets better or sits, nothing will change.

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 04:22 PM
Well, Well, Well.....turns out I was right....who wouldve thought that we would lose that game.....I neeeeeeeeever saw THAT coming. How horrible is it that we are that predictable??? Again...back to the whole NO HEART thing. After about the 6th, we might as well field a bunch of school girls out there, they have no guts...no heart...and a lot of them have no talent. Bravesman11, that is probably the worst arguement I have heard on this forum. I understand we have injuries....BUT, if you asked those guys (gotay, norton, ect.) if they are bench players or starters, what do you think they would say???? You don't play baseball to want to hit once every other day, and fill in when people get injured. When is the last time we drafter someone saying....."Hmmmm, bet you he'ld be great off the bench or as a pinch runner" That is rediculous. These guys are given the option to play...and they suck. If they suck playing ever day....I don't care if they can get a hit once in awhile off the bench.

You say we can't expect to come through every time...but can you think of 3 instances this season off the top of your head where we have come through???? ****, I doubt if there have been 3 actual instances in the past 2seasons.....and again, that comes down to heart and talent....both of which we are lacking.

Jo-Jo was excellent, that was the one smart thing you said...and the point of this entire post is to get people to realize our pitching is getting better and better with these young guys. As JM said....we NEED A FREAKING BAT...that is no secret....my only fear is that we get a BS guy to be a temporary fix, as opposed to getting the guy (Jason Bay) that we really need.

And you say Gotay and Norton won't be cut???? We shall see my friend. Gotay is hitting like .195 and so is Norton. He MAY make it the season, because we traded for him and Wren doesn't want to look like an idiot. But if Gotay makes it the year....I will develop the ability to lick my own ear :)

And lastly....I will just have to deal with it???? The way we will deal with it is by being terrible, and not making the playoffs....wow, that sure will show me. I am not on here *****ing because I want to be right. I would love to be proved wrong by Norton and Gotay....but they suck, and they will not prove me wrong. You can see they have some talent....but hey, I drain a 25 foot putt every now and then....I'm not on the PGA Tour.

BRAVE KID
06-29-2008, 04:23 PM
The problem hasn't been getting on base. We've been in the top of the majors all season in OBP. We can't get guys in and Francoeur is the guy who keeps failing and he isn't moved down or sat or anything. Until he either gets better or sits, nothing will change.possibly, but I would like to see that lineup out there for a week or so, just to see if it changes anything. lets see if KJ/kotsay can help make up for franky's putrid perfomance. just thinking.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 04:26 PM
possibly, but I would like to see that lineup out there for a week or so, just to see if it changes anything. lets see if KJ/kotsay can help make up for franky's putrid perfomance. just thinking.

It'll just move the inevitable ****up down 1 more spot. It'll probably just make those 2-run losses 1-run losses and those 1-run losses and tie that turns into an extra-inning 1-run loss. As long as Francoeur still has an AB and he doesn't improve, we will have a hard time winning. For some reason, all the big chances find him and he ****s them up over and over.

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 04:26 PM
BK...nothing against RTG...I like that he brings a different perspective....I just know we don't agree on ANYTHING, and I just throw it out there to begin with. :)

I like open discussions done respectfully, sometimes he airs on the side of being a jerk...not always being respectful is all I will say

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 04:27 PM
And back to baseball....I agree BK with the lineup switch helping...but in the end, we need a guy...no question

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 04:30 PM
Honestly....Don't be suprised is Frenchy gets "mysteriously" placed on the DL like Bryan Pena did earlier this season. The guy is just lost...and I think his inability to move a guy from 2nd to 3rd today with nobody out may have pissed off Bobby finally. I am all for sending the guy down to AAA. I am not giving up on him, but he needs a breather.

Scratch that....I would be in favor of sending him down, if it wouldn't resort to someone with the talent of my mother having to play RF for him :)

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 04:31 PM
Guys say what you want but before Kotsay went out we were above 500. If we were 4 games above 500 we would be at the top of the division. We have not had a healthy lineup in forever. But Tuesday we shall see what our lineup can do. I believe Kotsay should play left not center, leave Blance there. he is doing well lately. Then when we get Diaz back he will start vs lefties instead of Kotsay. ( so Kotsay can get rest). Our lineup will score and as long as our pitching stays descent WE WILL MAKE A RUN...
Blanco-who is doing well here
Yunel-Perfect #2 hitter
Chipper-
Tex-who is getting hot
McCann
Kotsay/KJ
francoeur
KJ/Kotsay

By the way JoJo pitched a jem. Great job on his part today

PS. We need Bull Pen Help also.

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 04:37 PM
Salty...I agree with you on paper bud....but at everyone is going to need a day off now and then, and someone will be day-to-day with the bumps and grinds of a long season. Say Chipper (who unquestionably) will miss a game or two because of his quad a week from now....and BMac is given the day off....here is our linep

Blanco
Yunel
Kelly
Tex
Kotsay
Frenchy
Infante/Gotay
Corky (I am the worst baseball player ever) Miller
Pitcher

That means we are SCREWED 7,8,9....RALLY KILLER

Infante is decent don't get me wrong...but what is wrong is the ONLY places we can score runs are 3,4,5...and they aren't always gonna come though. That is not going to work unless we get some DEPTH and then have guys like Diaz and Blanco/Kotsay coming off the bench....as opposed to snortin Norton and Ruben (act like I shouldve hit it after I swing and miss constantly) Gotay

BRAVE KID
06-29-2008, 04:40 PM
And back to baseball....I agree BK with the lineup switch helping...but in the end, we need a guy...no questionoh without a doubt, we need a guy. I am not saying we don't I just thought with that lineup, we can do a better job until we get that guy.

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 04:43 PM
I agree with that completely....but ONE GUY means we cut the dead weight, and use the experience that guys like Gregor and Norton have gained playing everyday...and parlay that into a stronger bench. We then don't RELY on them...but hopefully all this playing time lets them HELP instead of hurt us. A Bay/Kotsay/Frenchy outfield with Blanco/Diaz on the bench is better than having to play a guy that will never be better than a 4th guy.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 04:45 PM
oh without a doubt, we need a guy. I am not saying we don't I just thought with that lineup, we can do a better job until we get that guy.

I agree 100%
Norton,Gotay,BJ,Lillibridge do not deserve to be on this team., Let alone START
Our Bench after injuries will look like:
Diaz, Prado, Infante, Norton-unfortunatly
Starting-Chipper,Kotsay,Yunel-how can you guys say Thats not Better.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 04:46 PM
By the way Blanco has been doing quite well leading off lately. Use it till he dies down.

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 04:47 PM
it is better...not my point. I think we will win more games, but not enough...and even if we do squak in the playoffs somehow....do you want Norton or Gotay up aginst Kerry Wood in the NLCS???? HEEEEELLLLL NO. But if we have Jason Bay in LF and Blanco on the bench....he drops down a bunt, may start a rally. I don't see Ruben or Norton doing anything that productive.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 04:51 PM
^^^ I dont see Norton and Ruben on our team when Diaz, Kotsay and Prado get back.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 04:56 PM
^^^ I dont see Norton and Ruben on our team when Diaz, Kotsay and Prado get back.

I would agree. Diaz is the pop we need from the right side of the plate, Dont get me wrong would love to Have Bay. LOVE, but i agree we will be better with Kotsay and Diaz and Chipper and Yunel
Chipper is one of the best hitters in baseball and when we can get him back. It will help out tremedously. Especially since Tex and Blanco are heating up. Maybe our offense will do what it is suppose to do.

BRAVE KID
06-29-2008, 04:58 PM
I don't mind seeing norton on this team AS LONG as he ONLY pinch hits.

RandyRocks77
06-29-2008, 05:05 PM
I don't mind seeing norton on this team AS LONG as he ONLY pinch hits.


Amen to that

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 05:06 PM
Yea I scream when I see Norton out there. Would rather see Diaz anyday. He always hustles, yea he might have been struggling this year, But when he is on and with his heart, I love watching him play.

BRAVE KID
06-29-2008, 05:12 PM
I don't mind diaz out there :rolleyes:he is just another franky I have to deal with in the lineup. go back to where he was successful with the platoon, he is not a starter so he should never hit off righties.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 05:17 PM
I don't mind diaz out there :rolleyes:he is just another franky I have to deal with in the lineup. go back to where he was successful with the platoon, he is not a starter so he should never hit off righties.

I agree:
I think he and Kotsay should Platoon in Left and Leave Blanco in center till he starts to struggle.

WAR EAGLE 5
06-29-2008, 05:17 PM
Cant we find a better back up catcher than Corky? My god...he is terrible

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 05:19 PM
^^^AMEN!!! Gosh I wish Javy Lopez would have stayed on the team. What are we thinking with Him. It is an automatic out, as is GOTAY.

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 05:29 PM
I agree totally with that as well...I know people say he calls a good game, but his offense is TRULY god awful. We did sign Jason Phillips to a minor league deal the other day. I wouldn't mind him as a backup. Remember the guy with the dark rimmed glasses that played for the Mets. He was good then.....I say he is worth a shot now.

WAR EAGLE 5
06-29-2008, 05:38 PM
the automatic outs on our team is crazy..... our pitching has been very good, but it seems that there is just no fire what so ever on this team. Chipper needs to throw some bats or something...anything

gsubeatwriter
06-29-2008, 05:40 PM
In all honesty, Jason Phillips can't be that good...but he's gotta be a better hitter than Corky...man he sucks. I just want to see Frank Wren and Bobby be proactive. I don't know if you guys remember but we went through crap like this the past two seasons. People got injured (Smoltz, Hampton, Gonzo, Chipper, Renteria....etc.) and the team just sat back and watched. Finally, on the trade deadline day, JS went and got Tex, who promptly went on a ridiculous hot streak. Now we need one more hitter. Jo-Jo, JJ, Campy and Charlie are about as good a rotation as you can have (I left out Huddy because he is too freakin streaky)...I think as long as wren and bobby don't sit on their hands too long they can get us back in this thing. Even if Philly wins tonight, as bad as we have been, we are only 5 back. And if they lose, we are only 4 back.

That is unbelievable. So Wren needs to go out there and trade a few guys and get us a bat. As long as he doesn't trade the afore mentioned pitchers (which he wont), I don't really care what he does. JUST DO IT NOW, NOT A MONTH FROM NOW

gsubeatwriter
06-29-2008, 05:43 PM
Oh an on the injury thing, from a guy who loves hockey and lacrosse, baseball players are the biggest prima donnas in pro sports. Kotsay has chronic back pains, so I get that. But Hampton and Chip are hurt EVERY YEAR. How about Ryan Malone? The AJC's fan blogger "Rawhide" brought up the fact that Malone took a puck to the face during the post season for the pittsburgh penguins and went to the locker room just long enough to get stiched up and come back out and play. That is an example of tough. Quit bellyaching about a freakin pectoral or a quadricep and PLAY THE GAME

WAR EAGLE 5
06-29-2008, 05:44 PM
i played a littel catcher when i was 12...maybe they could give me a shot...i could go up and strike out everytime...and i would take much less in salary

WAR EAGLE 5
06-29-2008, 05:44 PM
whoops...little

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 05:48 PM
Oh an on the injury thing, from a guy who loves hockey and lacrosse, baseball players are the biggest prima donnas in pro sports. Kotsay has chronic back pains, so I get that. But Hampton and Chip are hurt EVERY YEAR. How about Ryan Malone? The AJC's fan blogger "Rawhide" brought up the fact that Malone took a puck to the face during the post season for the pittsburgh penguins and went to the locker room just long enough to get stiched up and come back out and play. That is an example of tough. Quit bellyaching about a freakin pectoral or a quadricep and PLAY THE GAME

AMEN. At least DH for god's sake.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 05:50 PM
i would agree. Go ahead and get it. Honestly though i will add. Schafer, Gorkys, and whats his name. Cant remember.

BRAVE KID
06-29-2008, 05:54 PM
Oh an on the injury thing, from a guy who loves hockey and lacrosse, baseball players are the biggest prima donnas in pro sports. Kotsay has chronic back pains, so I get that. But Hampton and Chip are hurt EVERY YEAR. How about Ryan Malone? The AJC's fan blogger "Rawhide" brought up the fact that Malone took a puck to the face during the post season for the pittsburgh penguins and went to the locker room just long enough to get stiched up and come back out and play. That is an example of tough. Quit bellyaching about a freakin pectoral or a quadricep and PLAY THE GAMEspeaking the truth:clap: baseball are seriously whimps.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 06:07 PM
Yea but we all know they are. Thats why it fustrates us. But I am just hopeing Chipper can come back full strenght.

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 06:49 PM
laxman, I'm sorry but I feel no pity for you right now. Let's review:


Honestly....Don't be suprised is Frenchy gets "mysteriously" placed on the DL like Bryan Pena did earlier this season.

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
You're kidding, right? Yeah, sure, teams regularly place their hyper-talented but struggling players on the DL to fix them. It really makes the guys happy when their team invents injuries so that they can sit on the bench and lose value and playing time. You know the players' union can file grievances for those kinds of stunts. For a guy like Brayan Pena (who's a marginal 25th man at best), the union doesn't give a darn, but for Frenchy you can bet they'd be yelling and screaming.


I understand we have injuries....BUT, if you asked those guys (gotay, norton, ect.) if they are bench players or starters, what do you think they would say???? You don't play baseball to want to hit once every other day, and fill in when people get injured. When is the last time we drafter someone saying....."Hmmmm, bet you he'ld be great off the bench or as a pinch runner" That is rediculous. These guys are given the option to play...and they suck. If they suck playing ever day....I don't care if they can get a hit once in awhile off the bench.

Do you know anything at all about how to build a baseball team? What...do you want Alex friggin' Rodriguez on your bench? For Gotay and Norton, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with how much they "want" to be starters. It has everything to do with the fact that they just aren't talented enough. Believe it or not, they probably even understand that themselves. Hell, I WANT to be a major-league baseball superstar. I really do. That would be the life, but no matter how hard I work, I will never be able to hit a 95 mph fastball 450 feet. It just won't happen. Same for Norton and Gotay (or any other major-league bench player). No matter how much they might have heart and guts and balls and whatever other body part, they just aren't going to be good enough to start.

But that hardly makes them useless. When they are used correctly (i.e., appearing every once in a while so they don't get overexposed), they can be very valuable as situational pinch-hitters and defensive replacements, and they get paid accordingly. Not everyone can be Albert Pujols. Unfortunately, all the injuries have forced these particular guys into roles for which their talent is not suited. And it shouldn't surprise you that they consistently fail. Now I'm not even going to endorse either of those guys in particular as good bench players, but the fact that you're saying a guy ought to either be able to play every day or get cut is totally inane.

And no...the Braves don't draft guys thinking that their ceiling is as a bench player, but any draft pick would kill to make it that far, since only about a tiny fraction of draftees even cut it as bench players at High-A. Not to mention I don't see how that has anything at all to do with your argument, but the fact is that there is such a thing as being a valuable bench player who is not a valuable everyday player.


Brandon Jones has looked horrible today, and honestly....he is going to average at BEST. Lilly has got to be traded...but I think every game he plays in the majors make his value drop...because the kid is just overmatched. We need to make a move sooooooon. Norton and Gotay can be released....honestly, I am just sick of having a million mediocre guys.

It is a damn good thing you don't have anything to do with running a major-league franchise. COMBINED Brandon Jones and Brent Lillibridge have come to the plate a staggering 93 times. Boy, that's almost 15% of a full season right there. So it's definitely early enough to pass all kinds of judgment. You're making a snap judgment on Brandon Jones' future because of how he looked TODAY?! Might I point out that coming into today he was hitting .300/.340/.500! Yeah, that's pretty average right there. Hell, anybody can hit .300 and slug .500. Now I'm NOT saying he'll keep that up, or even that he'll ever be any good, but it's at least a reason to GIVE THE KID A CHANCE.

And you're just totally ignoring Lillibridge's talent. Does he look overmatched? Absolutely. But I hate to imagine what you would have done with Kelly Johnson in 2005 when he managed exactly ONE hit in his first 36 plate appearances. Get him the heck out of town...ASAP!!! Jeez. The kid is 24 years old. For someone that makes such a big deal out of the "heart" and the "balls", doesn't it register that maybe the kid has some jitters being called up to the big leagues after struggling for the better part of three months at Richmond?! But that doesn't mean his talent is gone. Again, I am NOT saying he's the next big thing, but you can't just run around condemning all these guys like it's your job when he has barely been to the plate 20 times in the majors!

As far as making a move "sooooooon", that doesn't make a lick of sense either. No team is going to make a big deal with us for another month. The teams that are selling want to wait until the very last minute so that teams get desperate and are willing to pay a lot more to get players. There's no way teams are looking to make deals today or even this week. They want to wait until "zero hour" on July 31.

Bravesman11
06-29-2008, 06:54 PM
Well, Well, Well.....turns out I was right....who wouldve thought that we would lose that game.....I neeeeeeeeever saw THAT coming. How horrible is it that we are that predictable??? Again...back to the whole NO HEART thing. After about the 6th, we might as well field a bunch of school girls out there, they have no guts...no heart...and a lot of them have no talent. Bravesman11, that is probably the worst arguement I have heard on this forum. I understand we have injuries....BUT, if you asked those guys (gotay, norton, ect.) if they are bench players or starters, what do you think they would say???? You don't play baseball to want to hit once every other day, and fill in when people get injured. When is the last time we drafter someone saying....."Hmmmm, bet you he'ld be great off the bench or as a pinch runner" That is rediculous. These guys are given the option to play...and they suck. If they suck playing ever day....I don't care if they can get a hit once in awhile off the bench.

You say we can't expect to come through every time...but can you think of 3 instances this season off the top of your head where we have come through???? ****, I doubt if there have been 3 actual instances in the past 2seasons.....and again, that comes down to heart and talent....both of which we are lacking.

Jo-Jo was excellent, that was the one smart thing you said...and the point of this entire post is to get people to realize our pitching is getting better and better with these young guys. As JM said....we NEED A FREAKING BAT...that is no secret....my only fear is that we get a BS guy to be a temporary fix, as opposed to getting the guy (Jason Bay) that we really need.

And you say Gotay and Norton won't be cut???? We shall see my friend. Gotay is hitting like .195 and so is Norton. He MAY make it the season, because we traded for him and Wren doesn't want to look like an idiot. But if Gotay makes it the year....I will develop the ability to lick my own ear :)

And lastly....I will just have to deal with it???? The way we will deal with it is by being terrible, and not making the playoffs....wow, that sure will show me. I am not on here *****ing because I want to be right. I would love to be proved wrong by Norton and Gotay....but they suck, and they will not prove me wrong. You can see they have some talent....but hey, I drain a 25 foot putt every now and then....I'm not on the PGA Tour.

Way to go, you predicted a loss when we were losing in the 6th inning. You must be a psychic or something. These guys don't seem to have heart, I agree. But that's not a valid point in argument. You're just saying that the Braves have no heart. You have no proof other than your own heresy. Which might I add, is loud and annoying.

Well, since when do you ask the player? The action of sitting on the bench rather than starting speaks for itself. But, due to the money they're offered, they play off the bench. They're bench players forced into a situation they can't handle. They don't have the talent to start, but they have to due to the injuries. And yes, you have to keep players like this.They're called "back-up's", and just because they aren't as good as the starters doesn't mean we don't need them.

Alright, last Saturday against Seattle (McCann single), May 16 against the A's (Kotsay RBI double), and June 18 against Texas (Omar Infante RBI single).

Thanks for the compliment. The pitching has been good, but you have FOUR rookies starting. That's bad. You can bet that Campilo's success is not going to last. A veteran presence would help that rotation. As for the "moves", Frank meant we are either going to call someone up or scourge the waiver wires for a quick fix. We aren't getting Jason Bay to fix this, and we by no means need him. When all of our injured players come back, we won't have room for him.

They very well could be cut, but not in the near future. They need to be back in the position they belong, the bench. And no, Frank Wren in not keeping Norton out of his own vanity.

I have no idea how that last comment countered mine, I said, wait for the injured players come back, not that players on our team are lucky sometimes.

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 07:03 PM
Oh an on the injury thing, from a guy who loves hockey and lacrosse, baseball players are the biggest prima donnas in pro sports. Kotsay has chronic back pains, so I get that. But Hampton and Chip are hurt EVERY YEAR. How about Ryan Malone? The AJC's fan blogger "Rawhide" brought up the fact that Malone took a puck to the face during the post season for the pittsburgh penguins and went to the locker room just long enough to get stiched up and come back out and play. That is an example of tough. Quit bellyaching about a freakin pectoral or a quadricep and PLAY THE GAME

Here's another outrageous post. You cannot compare injuries in other sports to injuries in baseball, especially not this Ryan Malone guy. There's three big reasons for that:

1) In other sports, it's much more difficult to hurt your team by being injured. Let's take Ryan Malone for instance. Say he goes back in the locker room, gets stitched up, and comes back on the ice and SUCKS. He can't see and the stitches get in the way of him playing and he's more of a liability than an asset. He plays for--what?--two, three minutes before they pull him off the rink for good. And he's got five other guys out there to pick up the slack.

In baseball, it isn't that easy. If a pitcher goes out there with a strained muscle and his velocity is down 10% and he can't quite locate, he's got his team down six runs before you can even blink. And then you're barely through the first and you've got to somehow find eight innings out of your bullpen, which kills your team for the next week. In baseball, there's a lot more "individual" and less "team". In hockey or lacrosse, a team adjust to cover a weak spot. When a hitter's at the plate, there is NOTHING his team can do to help him if he's not 100%. Nothing.

2) Ryan Malone's injury was a trauma injury to a spot that didn't really affect his playing. As long as he can still see, he hardly needs his face to succeed. He sure as hell doesn't have to look pretty. But Chipper's quad or Hampton's pectoral muscle...they kinda need those to be able to play. It's pretty difficult to hit a baseball very far if your quad doesn't work, and you sure as hell can't pinpoint a pitch from 60 feet away if your pec hurts every time you wind up.

3) The baseball season is the longest, toughest season in sports. Period. Hampton doesn't apply so much here, but for Chipper, he's not sitting so that he'll be fresh next week. He's sitting so that he'll be fresh in September. He can't kill his body now and then have nothing left 70 games later. Baseball season is a grind...these guys play MORE, MORE OFTEN with LESS REST than any other sport in the country. And say all you want about how football and hockey and lacrosse players are getting hit all the time. Some doctors have dubbed overhand pitching the SINGLE MOST unnatural motion in sport, physiologically speaking. It puts torque in places that just aren't designed to take that kind of force, so guys get hurt. Also, baseball isn't like lacrosse where you are constantly running, and your muscles stay warm as a consequence. You might sit/stand for nine straight innings and then have to suddenly leg out a triple. It's EXTREMELY difficult to keep your muscles prepared to do that across what might be a three- to four-hour span.

So maybe baseball players are "prima donnas"...you think what you like on that count. But they certainly aren't any less "tough" than your buddy Ryan Malone. They're just in a different circumstance.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 07:12 PM
^^^either way even Smoltz has called Chipper out. We need him for the next series so he needs to suck it up.

This could be our season in the next couple weeks.

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 07:18 PM
The pitching has been good, but you have FOUR rookies starting. That's bad. You can bet that Campilo's success is not going to last. A veteran presence would help that rotation. As for the "moves", Frank meant we are either going to call someone up or scourge the waiver wires for a quick fix. We aren't getting Jason Bay to fix this, and we by no means need him. When all of our injured players come back, we won't have room for him.

This is a great point by Bravesman. laxman, let me ask you something. Try...just TRY...to put aside your sensationalist crap for a second. Think BIG PICTURE. Look back to the beginning of the season, because start-of-season predictions are by no means worthless at this point.

Which group would you have more confidence in:

1) McCann, Teixeira, Johnson, Escobar, Chipper Jones
2) Jair Jurrjens, Jorge Campillo, Jo-Jo Reyes, Charlie Morton

If you answered #1, you're right. The first group is proven. We know what to expect, and even if they're not all posting All-Star caliber numbers RIGHT THIS MINUTE, it is clearly better to place your bets on the proven group as opposed to the unproven one.

Now I am NOT saying that I don't like group #2...quite the contrary. I like all of them. A lot. But let's think about which of the two units is steadier going forward. We're set at catcher, first base, second base and third base. Sure, Chipper will take a day off every week, but his production is more than good enough to make up for that. I'm not the biggest Yunel Escobar fan, but a .770 OPS is nothing to sneer at from a shortstop and you don't hear anyone calling for his head. Center field is set as well, because Kotsay is due back very soon and even if that doesn't work out, Jordan Schafer is more than ready. One of the two will work. Left field likewise has plenty of options, and some combo of Matt Diaz, Gregor Blanco and Brandon Jones should be able to get the job done. That leaves right field as the only real hole, and Francouer is talented enough to turn things around at any moment. And every offense is going to have its weaknesses...you can't have everything.

Would it be great to add Jason Bay to that mix? Absolutely! But the far more suspect group is the rotation, where junkballer Campillo could lose the magic at any moment and Morton, Reyes, or Jurrjens could hit a good old rookie bump in the road. I like all four of those guys, but they are FAR riskier bets as rookies than the generally proven players in our lineup. And the positions where we don't have "proven" players, we have failsafes (i.e., left and center field).

So up to this point, yes, the offense has failed. But if you stop to think for a second, looking forward, the pitching staff is the far riskier bet.

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 07:21 PM
^^^either way even Smoltz has called Chipper out. We need him for the next series so he needs to suck it up.

This could be our season in the next couple weeks.

Once again, you discount the possibility that when he's hurting, he may actually be WORSE than Ruben Gotay. My guess is that he would have a much better idea of that than you or even than John Smoltz. And you might look where Mr. John "I'm Tougher Than You Are" Smoltz is right now and wonder if he might should have taken things a little easier.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT CRITICIZING JOHN SMOLTZ FOR HIS INJURY ISSUES. But at the same time, I don't think he is in much of a position to judge Chipper Jones' injuries.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 07:45 PM
RTG, for someone trying to argue the first group is more proven than the 2nd, you used "should", "could", and "will" a lot. Of course the 1st group is more proven, but that isn't the question. The 2nd group has proven THIS YEAR they are capable and until otherwise, they should be left alone in regards to adding to the rotation. Don't fix what isn't broken. JJ, Campillo, and Jo-Jo have gone through struggles and have gotten into jams and have not wilted. They may get hit hard, but they don't fall apart. They fight, and you can't teach that.

The 1st group you mentioned (Chip, Mac, Tex, KJ, Esco) are NOT the problem. Tex is sometimes, but he still produces even when he's struggling. The problems are coming from the OF, plain and simple. When Kotsay was healthy, he was producing. But Norton, Diaz, BJ, Blanco, and Francoeur have produced very little compared to their opportunities. And if asked to choose between A) Jurrjens, Reyes, Campillo, Morton or B) Jones, Diaz, Blanco, Norton, Francoeur, I'll take A all day, everyday. This group is far more suspect than the rookie pitchers and while the rookie pitchers have done far more than anyone would've asked or expected, the OF as a whole has done worse than we could've imagined. Diaz was expected to continue his success from the past 2 years and Frenchy was expected to expound upon his very good '07 and both bottomed out completely. BJ was expected to make the club in ST and he didn't, then he struggled at AAA. After a couple weeks of success in the majors, he's falling back to Earth. Blanco, after a couple months of success, has fallen off a lot. He may be heating back up, though. Norton just can't start.

You were comparing the good part of the offense to the pitchers when you should've been looking at the bad part of the offense, the OF. Right now, Jason Bay or a comparable player would help much more than another SP because right now and so far this year, the rookie pitchers have come through while the OF hasn't. Let's worry about the problems we DO have instead of problems we may end up having.

tomno00
06-29-2008, 07:45 PM
This is a great point by Bravesman. laxman, let me ask you something. Try...just TRY...to put aside your sensationalist crap for a second. Think BIG PICTURE. Look back to the beginning of the season, because start-of-season predictions are by no means worthless at this point.

Which group would you have more confidence in:

1) McCann, Teixeira, Johnson, Escobar, Chipper Jones
2) Jair Jurrjens, Jorge Campillo, Jo-Jo Reyes, Charlie Morton

If you answered #1, you're right. The first group is proven. We know what to expect, and even if they're not all posting All-Star caliber numbers RIGHT THIS MINUTE, it is clearly better to place your bets on the proven group as opposed to the unproven one.

Now I am NOT saying that I don't like group #2...quite the contrary. I like all of them. A lot. But let's think about which of the two units is steadier going forward. We're set at catcher, first base, second base and third base. Sure, Chipper will take a day off every week, but his production is more than good enough to make up for that. I'm not the biggest Yunel Escobar fan, but a .770 OPS is nothing to sneer at from a shortstop and you don't hear anyone calling for his head. Center field is set as well, because Kotsay is due back very soon and even if that doesn't work out, Jordan Schafer is more than ready. One of the two will work. Left field likewise has plenty of options, and some combo of Matt Diaz, Gregor Blanco and Brandon Jones should be able to get the job done. That leaves right field as the only real hole, and Francouer is talented enough to turn things around at any moment. And every offense is going to have its weaknesses...you can't have everything.

Would it be great to add Jason Bay to that mix? Absolutely! But the far more suspect group is the rotation, where junkballer Campillo could lose the magic at any moment and Morton, Reyes, or Jurrjens could hit a good old rookie bump in the road. I like all four of those guys, but they are FAR riskier bets as rookies than the generally proven players in our lineup. And the positions where we don't have "proven" players, we have failsafes (i.e., left and center field).

So up to this point, yes, the offense has failed. But if you stop to think for a second, looking forward, the pitching staff is the far riskier bet.

you think our pitching is riskier? i dont think so. Our pitching has been there all year. Campillo has been great, jo jo has been great, JJ has been great, Morton has been good enough. Plus, we could possibly have glavine and hampton comming back after the break. So as far as starting piching goes, I see no immediate problems. This is not like last year, where he had to throw up chucky and buddy. These guys actually have good stuff to compete at the major league level..
As far as offense goes, we need another bat, plain and simple. If you ask me, chipper, esco, KJ, kotsay, franceour, and whoever we put in left feild are just as risky. chipper and kotsay with their injuries. Kj is a streaky hitter. Esco has never played a whole season and franceour.... well he flat out blows. Last year it was the pitching, this year it is clearly the offense. We need a bat, whether that is through trade or whether it is through us signing bonds, i really dont care..

Sinatra Vegas
06-29-2008, 07:45 PM
Look I'm not gonna read all these but the problem we have is the same problem we had last year and the year before and every year since we lost Furcal... We have no speed and we get absolutely NO productive outs... did anyone see how the dodgers got no hit and still scored a run? Thats because they can make things happen and got a guy to third with less than two outs and actually got someone to hit a flyball and not strikeout or pop up... we get a single and the guy whoever he is just gets stuck on first cause we can't steal bases... We had Anderson and never gave him a chance to lead off... just like today when Norton led off with that double... The second I saw hackin @$$ Francoeur come up I knew the inning was over...

He takes the first pitch fastball when all we needed was contact to the right side... so of course since he has no cocept of productive outs he pulls a ground ball Andruw style and Norton's stuck on second... then there's a wild pitch Norton gets to 3rd and Lillibridge strikes out... I'll cut him slack cause he's a rook but guys like Francouer and even Kells who I love do this crap ALL the time... We don't lose these 1 run games in the 9th, we lose them when we have our chances to add to leads in the 3rd through 7th and don't do it...

HOW MANY TIMES dowe have to have a runner on 3rd with no or one out and he not score?

tomno00
06-29-2008, 07:48 PM
damn nps and rtgthree... you guys should become journalists

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 07:50 PM
This is a great point by Bravesman. laxman, let me ask you something. Try...just TRY...to put aside your sensationalist crap for a second. Think BIG PICTURE. Look back to the beginning of the season, because start-of-season predictions are by no means worthless at this point.

Which group would you have more confidence in:

1) McCann, Teixeira, Johnson, Escobar, Chipper Jones
2) Jair Jurrjens, Jorge Campillo, Jo-Jo Reyes, Charlie Morton

If you answered #1, you're right. The first group is proven. We know what to expect, and even if they're not all posting All-Star caliber numbers RIGHT THIS MINUTE, it is clearly better to place your bets on the proven group as opposed to the unproven one.

Now I am NOT saying that I don't like group #2...quite the contrary. I like all of them. A lot. But let's think about which of the two units is steadier going forward. We're set at catcher, first base, second base and third base. Sure, Chipper will take a day off every week, but his production is more than good enough to make up for that. I'm not the biggest Yunel Escobar fan, but a .770 OPS is nothing to sneer at from a shortstop and you don't hear anyone calling for his head. Center field is set as well, because Kotsay is due back very soon and even if that doesn't work out, Jordan Schafer is more than ready. One of the two will work. Left field likewise has plenty of options, and some combo of Matt Diaz, Gregor Blanco and Brandon Jones should be able to get the job done. That leaves right field as the only real hole, and Francouer is talented enough to turn things around at any moment. And every offense is going to have its weaknesses...you can't have everything.

Would it be great to add Jason Bay to that mix? Absolutely! But the far more suspect group is the rotation, where junkballer Campillo could lose the magic at any moment and Morton, Reyes, or Jurrjens could hit a good old rookie bump in the road. I like all four of those guys, but they are FAR riskier bets as rookies than the generally proven players in our lineup. And the positions where we don't have "proven" players, we have failsafes (i.e., left and center field).

So up to this point, yes, the offense has failed. But if you stop to think for a second, looking forward, the pitching staff is the far riskier bet.

Tell me which one is preforming right now. Thank you its the SP. And looking down the road, I say they get better. Even JoJo comes out last week has a bad outing follows that outing with a Jem today. JJ=Dominant of late. Morton is only going to get better. They will keep it up. This will be our Big 3 for many years to come. Starting this year.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 07:55 PM
This is a great point by Bravesman. laxman, let me ask you something. Try...just TRY...to put aside your sensationalist crap for a second. Think BIG PICTURE. Look back to the beginning of the season, because start-of-season predictions are by no means worthless at this point.

Which group would you have more confidence in:

1) McCann, Teixeira, Johnson, Escobar, Chipper Jones
2) Jair Jurrjens, Jorge Campillo, Jo-Jo Reyes, Charlie Morton

If you answered #1, you're right. The first group is proven. We know what to expect, and even if they're not all posting All-Star caliber numbers RIGHT THIS MINUTE, it is clearly better to place your bets on the proven group as opposed to the unproven one.

Now I am NOT saying that I don't like group #2...quite the contrary. I like all of them. A lot. But let's think about which of the two units is steadier going forward. We're set at catcher, first base, second base and third base. Sure, Chipper will take a day off every week, but his production is more than good enough to make up for that. I'm not the biggest Yunel Escobar fan, but a .770 OPS is nothing to sneer at from a shortstop and you don't hear anyone calling for his head. Center field is set as well, because Kotsay is due back very soon and even if that doesn't work out, Jordan Schafer is more than ready. One of the two will work. Left field likewise has plenty of options, and some combo of Matt Diaz, Gregor Blanco and Brandon Jones should be able to get the job done. That leaves right field as the only real hole, and Francouer is talented enough to turn things around at any moment. And every offense is going to have its weaknesses...you can't have everything.

Would it be great to add Jason Bay to that mix? Absolutely! But the far more suspect group is the rotation, where junkballer Campillo could lose the magic at any moment and Morton, Reyes, or Jurrjens could hit a good old rookie bump in the road. I like all four of those guys, but they are FAR riskier bets as rookies than the generally proven players in our lineup. And the positions where we don't have "proven" players, we have failsafes (i.e., left and center field).

So up to this point, yes, the offense has failed. But if you stop to think for a second, looking forward, the pitching staff is the far riskier bet.

I have mixed emotions with this topic.

First, there have lost 17 times (40% of losses) when our pitching staff has allowed 4 or less runs. This stat tells me our offense has been very inconsistent. Were down 4 games in our division so if our offense shows up half of those games we have comfortable division lead.

Second, its never a good idea to carry 4 Rookies. However, these are the guys that have carried us to a tone of a 3.31 ERA. Jurjjens is coming off the best start in his young career and JoJo is coming off a gem. Morton is coming off his best start IMO. And well Campillo's off speed stuff seems to have batter fooled. Thus what im saying is that there are no signs that these guys are slowing down. We need to ride the wave.

All together, the problem is that we havent been able to couple good pitching with consistent offense. A lot of our (2.6 run/loss and 6.5 run/win) time we either blow out a team or dont score any runs. Part of this has to do with the enormous amount of Lefties we have faced. Thus i believe a trade for a power right hand bat would add much needed power stability to our lineup. Some of it may be due to injuries but the reality is we were at or around .500 even before some of our players (esco, chipper and kotsay) went down. Best case scenerio is to get a quality SP to sore up the rotation and a RH power bat to stabalize our lineup. My hunch is that we go after a power bat though.

Thus i agree with you our pitching may fall out but THEY havent. Its our offense that has. Thus what do you fix something htat MIGHT fall off (pitching) or something that IS letting us down (hitting)???

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 08:00 PM
Once again, you discount the possibility that when he's hurting, he may actually be WORSE than Ruben Gotay. My guess is that he would have a much better idea of that than you or even than John Smoltz. And you might look where Mr. John "I'm Tougher Than You Are" Smoltz is right now and wonder if he might should have taken things a little easier.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT CRITICIZING JOHN SMOLTZ FOR HIS INJURY ISSUES. But at the same time, I don't think he is in much of a position to judge Chipper Jones' injuries.

doubt it...a few games back when Chipper was injured and came in to PH he was 2-2.

DISCLAIMER: its a lot harder to pitch when your Shoulder is in flames. Then to hit when your quad hurts.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 08:01 PM
Chipper has said hitting doesn't hurt the quad, he just can't run more than 50%. Bobby won't play him if he can't run. Plus, running with an injured quad only increases the chance it can get hurt again and worse.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 08:04 PM
All i can say is I wish we had Chipper. Its a shame he hurt that Quad. Hope he comes back strong.

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 08:06 PM
RTG, for someone trying to argue the first group is more proven than the 2nd, you used "should", "could", and "will" a lot. Of course the 1st group is more proven, but that isn't the question. The 2nd group has proven THIS YEAR they are capable and until otherwise, they should be left alone in regards to adding to the rotation. Don't fix what isn't broken. JJ, Campillo, and Jo-Jo have gone through struggles and have gotten into jams and have not wilted. They may get hit hard, but they don't fall apart. They fight, and you can't teach that.

The 1st group you mentioned (Chip, Mac, Tex, KJ, Esco) are NOT the problem. Tex is sometimes, but he still produces even when he's struggling. The problems are coming from the OF, plain and simple. When Kotsay was healthy, he was producing. But Norton, Diaz, BJ, Blanco, and Francoeur have produced very little compared to their opportunities. And if asked to choose between A) Jurrjens, Reyes, Campillo, Morton or B) Jones, Diaz, Blanco, Norton, Francoeur, I'll take A all day, everyday. This group is far more suspect than the rookie pitchers and while the rookie pitchers have done far more than anyone would've asked or expected, the OF as a whole has done worse than we could've imagined. Diaz was expected to continue his success from the past 2 years and Frenchy was expected to expound upon his very good '07 and both bottomed out completely. BJ was expected to make the club in ST and he didn't, then he struggled at AAA. After a couple weeks of success in the majors, he's falling back to Earth. Blanco, after a couple months of success, has fallen off a lot. He may be heating back up, though. Norton just can't start.

You were comparing the good part of the offense to the pitchers when you should've been looking at the bad part of the offense, the OF. Right now, Jason Bay or a comparable player would help much more than another SP because right now and so far this year, the rookie pitchers have come through while the OF hasn't. Let's worry about the problems we DO have instead of problems we may end up having.

nps, I use "should", "could" and "will" because I'm attempting to refer to the future which is inherently unpredictable and also inherently far more important than the past.

Here's my main concern: a lot of baseball fans are far too sensationalist. There's a very prevalent "what have you done for me lately?" attitude. Sure the pitching has done plenty for us lately, but baseball takes TIME and we have to be thinking long haul here. The pitching is plenty capable, but also plenty risky. You're going to be walking one helluva tightrope for the rest of the year if you stand pat with respect to that rotation. Now maybe they walk it with no problems and I'd be the first to commend them. But prudence sort of demands that you start replacing that tightrope with plywood ASAP.

The outfield is definitely a trouble spot, and I will repeat that I have absolutely no problem with a Jason Bay acquisition. I DO have a problem with ONLY a Jason Bay acquisition. The problem with the outfield has been much more the injuries than anything else. Frenchy is a different story, and I understand that. There isn't much you can do with your "Golden Boy" but let him try to figure things out and thank your lucky stars that he wouldn't sign an extension this past winter. So call right field a black hole. Every lineup has one, and that's ours. Solving left and center is not a difficult thing to do once you have ALL your options handy AT ONE TIME, which is due to happen soon now that Kotsay is ready to return, Schafer is back from his suspension and Diaz is well on his way to rejoining the team. No single one of them will solve the outfield issues, but the combination of all of them will.

Given his production thus far, there's no reason not to expect Kotsay to do fine in center. Blanco can spot him on a day-to-day basis with no problem, and Schafer's .312 EqA at Mississippi suggests that he's ready to take over if there are more extended problems. So that covers center field with a pretty good degree of certainty.

Matt Diaz has hit .333/.352/.435 against lefties this year (and he's always hit them well in his career), so there's the short half of your left-field platoon. Blanco is hitting .282/.383/.333 against righties, so that will work. If he can't keep that up, you can turn to Brandon Jones, who has looked just fine in his time in the bigs, and he needs the major-league reps anyway. With all the options, there will be SOME combo that works out.

The point is that there are failsafes in the system there (once everyone is healthy). If one of the starters blows out all of a sudden (or--God forbid--gets hurt, as pitchers are wont to do), where do you turn? Anthony Lerew? Francisley Bueno? Tommy Hanson? There's no backup plan.

So the "what have you done for me lately?" approach says fix the hitting, and I don't deny that at least to some degree, it could use some fixing. But the "what are you likely to do for me in the future?" approach says the pitching is the piece that's most precariously balanced right now.

tomno, I address most of your point above, but there's a little more I want to add in response to you. From what I've read Glavine is more likely to retire than return and I've been criticized to no end around here for being optimistic about Mike Hampton. So I'm hardly sold on either of those options.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 08:07 PM
Yes, a right-handed power bat is much needed. Chip has little power from the right side, Tex is hitting .229 right-handed, Francoeur isn't hitting anybody at any time, Blanco and Kotsay are both lefties who don't hit lefties well, Esco is middling against lefties, and LF is a black hole of suck. The only power we get against lefties is from McCann, a lefty himself. He's the only starter with a .500+ SLG against lefties. Chipper is hitting .409 vs. lefties and only has a .473 SLG. To compare, Chipper, Kotsay, Tex, and McCann all have .500+ SLG vs. righties.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 08:12 PM
The point is that there are failsafes in the system there (once everyone is healthy). If one of the starters blows out all of a sudden (or--God forbid--gets hurt, as pitchers are wont to do), where do you turn? Anthony Lerew? Francisley Bueno? Tommy Hanson? There's no backup plan.

Okay, but what is the backup plan for the OF? You're concentrating on a future problem that hasn't shown even a hint of occurring. I understand your concern, but there hasn't been any inkling it will happen, all the while the offense has continually lost us games and no changes have been and probably won' be made.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 08:14 PM
Plain and simple we need a power Bat from the right. Kinda what Andruw gave us. But HONESTLY the Brave's front office isn't going to do nothing till they see if the Kotsay, and Diaz return can preform. IMO I think they should split time in LEFT, and leave Blanco in Center till he starts to fall. he is on FIRE right now. Reason I think they should platoon is because Kotsay will need his time off. Till the Brave Front Office see's that fail. We WILL not go after anyone.

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 08:21 PM
I have mixed emotions with this topic.

First, there have lost 17 times (40% of losses) when our pitching staff has allowed 4 or less runs. This stat tells me our offense has been very inconsistent. Were down 4 games in our division so if our offense shows up half of those games we have comfortable division lead.

Second, its never a good idea to carry 4 Rookies. However, these are the guys that have carried us to a tone of a 3.31 ERA. Jurjjens is coming off the best start in his young career and JoJo is coming off a gem. Morton is coming off his best start IMO. And well Campillo's off speed stuff seems to have batter fooled. Thus what im saying is that there are no signs that these guys are slowing down. We need to ride the wave.

All together, the problem is that we havent been able to couple good pitching with consistent offense. A lot of our (2.6 run/loss and 6.5 run/win) time we either blow out a team or dont score any runs. Part of this has to do with the enormous amount of Lefties we have faced. Thus i believe a trade for a power right hand bat would add much needed power stability to our lineup. Some of it may be due to injuries but the reality is we were at or around .500 even before some of our players (esco, chipper and kotsay) went down. Best case scenerio is to get a quality SP to sore up the rotation and a RH power bat to stabalize our lineup. My hunch is that we go after a power bat though.

Thus i agree with you our pitching may fall out but THEY havent. Its our offense that has. Thus what do you fix something htat MIGHT fall off (pitching) or something that IS letting us down (hitting)???

jmtapia, your points are salient and well expressed. A couple of things in response, though:

1) Your point about run differential in wins and losses doesn't really work. Of course you're going to score more runs in your wins and less in your losses. The NL-leading Cubs have scored 7.1 runs per game in wins and 2.9 runs per game in losses, which is actually WORSE than our split.

2) The reason we were at/near .500 before Chipper et al went down was due to bad timing. Let me analyze it this way. Our "most common" lineup this year has been B-Mac, Tex, KJ, Yunel, Chipper, Diaz, Kotsay and Frenchy. The last time we used that lineup was May 23, before Kotsay went down.

Through 5/23, we hit .284/.355/.433 and scored 4.85 runs per game.
Since 5/23, we have hit .253/.335/.405 and scored 4.15 runs per game.

There is a HUGE difference there, even if the record doesn't show it. And I would argue that this rough patch has allowed us to "discover" some new talent, like (potentially) Gregor Blanco and Brandon Jones, who could very well even ADD TO the success prior to May 23 once everybody gets back healthy again.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 08:29 PM
Great Post. Would agree 100%

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 08:32 PM
Okay, but what is the backup plan for the OF? You're concentrating on a future problem that hasn't shown even a hint of occurring. I understand your concern, but there hasn't been any inkling it will happen, all the while the offense has continually lost us games and no changes have been and probably won' be made.\

Dude, the whole job of baseball front offices is to concentrate on future problems that haven't even shown a hint of occurring. You obviously want to solve the problem before it even STARTS to occur. Now that doesn't mean that you set about replacing everyone because there's a one-in-a-million chance that they might break down. It does mean that when you have a pretty obviously risky situation (like the pitching staff), you put the failsafes in place BEFORE anything can go wrong. That's what Wren did this winter with the rotation and THANK GOD he did.

In my immediately previous post, I deal with the offense losing games question. You did not see that before you wrote the above obviously, but take a look at the "pre-injury" vs. "post-injury" splits. The "pre-injury" runs/game figure puts us solidly in the top 5 in the MLB, and that works pretty well for me. And yes, you could argue that our ERA is also top 5 in the MLB, but the whole argument I've been making is that the ERA figure is on shakier shoulders than the runs/game figure. Not to mention that when push comes to shove, pitching wins. The offense was losing games pre-injury because of bad luck/timing. NOW it's losing them due to lack of production, but there's no reason not to expect that to revert to normal once Chipper, Escobar, Kotsay and Diaz return to the lineup.

As for the "what is the OF backup plan?" question, go back and read post #59, paragraphs 4-6. That's the full answer to your question. You've got plenty of potential solutions to choose from and you only need one to work at each position.

irishfan1582
06-29-2008, 08:32 PM
Hard to beat Major League teams when you throw a AAA+ team on the field day in day out. The past few games, there have only been 3 players on the field who are playing like Major League players (Tex, McCann and KJ). Take those three out of the lineup and you might as well change the name on the front of the jerseys to Richmond.

So in that sense I'm not too dissappointed in the performance. However when Kotsay returns on Tuesday I would like to see one thing happen in the OF, SIT FRENCHY. At least for the phillies series. Yeah it's a big series, but i think they might have a better chance with his bat tucked away in a corner not to be seen in any game of that series. Play an OF of LF-Blanco CF-Kotsay and RF-Jones.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 08:44 PM
Just look at our 1-run games, wins AND losses. Look how low scoring most of them are. 25 total 1-run games, 15 times we scored 3 or less. That is a CRAZY amount of low-scoring games from an offense like ours, with all the big hitters. When our pitchers give us good games, the offense takes the night off.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 08:47 PM
\

Dude, the whole job of baseball front offices is to concentrate on future problems that haven't even shown a hint of occurring. You obviously want to solve the problem before it even STARTS to occur. Now that doesn't mean that you set about replacing everyone because there's a one-in-a-million chance that they might break down. It does mean that when you have a pretty obviously risky situation (like the pitching staff), you put the failsafes in place BEFORE anything can go wrong. That's what Wren did this winter with the rotation and THANK GOD he did.

In my immediately previous post, I deal with the offense losing games question. You did not see that before you wrote the above obviously, but take a look at the "pre-injury" vs. "post-injury" splits. The "pre-injury" runs/game figure puts us solidly in the top 5 in the MLB, and that works pretty well for me. And yes, you could argue that our ERA is also top 5 in the MLB, but the whole argument I've been making is that the ERA figure is on shakier shoulders than the runs/game figure. Not to mention that when push comes to shove, pitching wins. The offense was losing games pre-injury because of bad luck/timing. NOW it's losing them due to lack of production, but there's no reason not to expect that to revert to normal once Chipper, Escobar, Kotsay and Diaz return to the lineup.

As for the "what is the OF backup plan?" question, go back and read post #59, paragraphs 4-6. That's the full answer to your question. You've got plenty of potential solutions to choose from and you only need one to work at each position.

Yes, the job of the FO is to have solutions to unforeseen problems. AFTER they solve the CURRENT problems. Our offense has lost games ALL YEAR, before and after Kotsay's injury, due to inconsistency and lack of situational hitting. Since May 23, we had mostly the same lineup everyday until the last week. Unless Kotsay and Diaz were a much bigger part of scoring than we thought, it comes down to the offense, with all that proven talent, has done little to win games.

I read your "answers" to thne OF backup plan. Kotsay is a tossup because who knows how he will do after such a long layoff due to his back and who knows if he will get hurt again. Backs are very tricky issues. So he could easily be gone another month.

Schafer may be ready (I'd rather see him up with Kotsay in LF), but there's no certainty he is truly ready since he missed 50 games already.

Diaz has hit lefties for singles, but we need some right-handed power, which Diaz can't provide. We have one of the higher OBP in the NL, so getting runners is definitely NOT a problem. We need someone to knock guys in and Diaz isn't it. Blanco and BJ are also not going to supply much power.

The "failsafes" are all as likely to fail than actually perform. The only way they're failsafes is that it gives us bodies to put into the positions. These "fixes" don't fix anything. It's just leaving in the same guys who are currently not performing that well.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 08:47 PM
Put Kotsay in Left. With the ? about him rehurting his back, let him play left. Blanco is way faster. And I would agree, at least with Francoeur on the bench he can be a Power-POTENTIAL off the bench. at least for one game. I think that is a great idea.

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 08:53 PM
Just look at our 1-run games, wins AND losses. Look how low scoring most of them are. 25 total 1-run games, 15 times we scored 3 or less. That is a CRAZY amount of low-scoring games from an offense like ours, with all the big hitters. When our pitchers give us good games, the offense takes the night off.

There's a term for that: bad luck. Unless you really think that our hitters' poor efforts consciously coincide with our pitchers' good ones.

There was a great article by Joe Sheehan on Baseball Prospectus about the Indians' tough situation regarding C.C. Sabathia. It's not about the Braves, but it might as well be:

The idea that the Indians have to trade Sabathia and plan for the future is yet another example of a significant negative trend within baseball: judging teams too quickly. We’ve developed this NFL mindset in which a three-game losing streak, or a bad month, leads to rumors and firings and chaos. Baseball is wired differently. Baseball needs time. There’s nothing unusual about a very good team playing around .500 for a month or three, or for that matter, a bad one doing the same. There’s nothing insurmountable about a 6 ˝-game deficit, and if the Indians aren’t in trouble, then the same can be said for the Mets, or the Yankees, or the Braves, or any of a number of other teams around whom there’s an air of panic.
I am on board with him 100%. Am I saying the Braves should stand pat and do nothing? Hell no. But I AM saying that we need to see where things go over the next month rather than panicking and saying we need to MOVE NOW OR DIE. And I am ALSO saying that once the whole offense gets back up to speed, the problems may appear VERY DIFFERENT than they do now. That is ALL I'm trying to say here. I am not offhand opposed to a Jason Bay acquisition, but I don't think that's just the automatic solution.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 08:55 PM
There's a term for that: bad luck. Unless you really think that our hitters' poor efforts consciously coincide with our pitchers' good ones.

No, but it shows that we are losing many games due to lack of offense. It shows our pitchers are showing up and the hitters aren't. We've lost, what, 22 of those 25 1-run games? And 15 times we scored 3 or fewer. At some point, "bad luck" can't be the reason. When it's a consistent trend, luck isn't the main factor anymore. 25 games out of 83 is a very large sample size.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 09:01 PM
I would agree. It will be crazy when our guys come back from injuries though. I hope we put up a run. Really Hope. Last year we needed pitching traded for a bat, this year we need a bat, Watch us trade for pitching, But like i said earlier, Dont see the Braves doing anything till they know Kotsay,Diaz, and Chipper either cant play or cant get it done. Till then we are staying put, and maybe, just maybe thats a good thing.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 09:08 PM
2)
Through 5/23, we hit .284/.355/.433 and scored 4.85 runs per game.
Since 5/23, we have hit .253/.335/.405 and scored 4.15 runs per game.

There is a HUGE difference there, even if the record doesn't show it. And I would argue that this rough patch has allowed us to "discover" some new talent, like (potentially) Gregor Blanco and Brandon Jones, who could very well even ADD TO the success prior to May 23 once everybody gets back healthy again.

Talent like Blanco and Jones are not going to lead us anywhere. Sure they are good assets to a team but its a bat like Bay or another top RH OF thats going to propel us to where we want to see our team.

With Chipper about to go on the DL its even more imperative that we find a fix. Maybe even bring up Schafer to provide some power. Blanco has been doing great but we need POWER in our lineup.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 09:12 PM
Yeah if Chip is going to the DL. We need run producing. I am all for bringing up Jordan. That being said Bay would give us much needed power. I hope Chip doesn't have to go. Is it for sure yet.

irishfan1582
06-29-2008, 09:15 PM
Blanco and Jones are great players, but they both are 4th outfielders at best. In a perfect would I would love to see Both hang around when Diaz comes back and for Greg Norton to pack his bags. I've been nothing but impressed with both Jones and Blanco and see them, off the bench, able to change the shape of a game. They both know how to play the game and can do the little things that a team needs in order to start winning some of these 1 run games.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 09:18 PM
Blanco and Jones are great players, but they both are 4th outfielders at best. In a perfect would I would love to see Both hang around when Diaz comes back and for Greg Norton to pack his bags. I've been nothing but impressed with both Jones and Blanco and see them, off the bench, able to change the shape of a game. They both know how to play the game and can do the little things that a team needs in order to start winning some of these 1 run games.

where exaclty have they been while we have lost a MLB record 25 straight 1 run games....if they cant change things while they are starting i doubt they will change things when they are getting 3 AB a week.

Also betting for Blanco and BJ to be our game changers is the worst thing to do. We need to look for Chipper, Tex, BMac and even Frenchy to do that. Those are suppose to be our big game changing players.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 09:18 PM
Having Chipper and a Hot TEX means those 1 run games we win, but seeing how that is not happening I can only hope we bring up Jordan, Or Frechy wakes up, or we trade for a bat. W/o chip or another bat, Jones and Blanco can set up all day. Runs will stay on the bases

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 09:22 PM
Talent like Blanco and Jones are not going to lead us anywhere. Sure they are good assets to a team but its a bat like Bay or another top RH OF thats going to propel us to where we want to see our team.

With Chipper about to go on the DL its even more imperative that we find a fix. Maybe even bring up Schafer to provide some power. Blanco has been doing great but we need POWER in our lineup.

Who said we need talent like Blanco and Jones to "lead us" anywhere? Just having everyone back ought to put us back where we were pre-May 23. Jones and Blanco are hardly leaders...they're just icing on the cake.

Now Chipper's injury hurts like the dickens unfortunately, but your earliest opportunity to acquire Bay won't come until after Jones is expected to return anyway.


No, but it shows that we are losing many games due to lack of offense. It shows our pitchers are showing up and the hitters aren't. We've lost, what, 22 of those 25 1-run games? And 15 times we scored 3 or fewer. At some point, "bad luck" can't be the reason. When it's a consistent trend, luck isn't the main factor anymore. 25 games out of 83 is a very large sample size.

Well since May 23, bad luck hasn't been the reason. Since May 23, lack of talent in the lineup has been the reason. Before that, we were underplaying our Pythagorean record by an almost unheard-of margin (we still are, but less so). I don't know where the "25/83" figure comes from, but even 83 games is a small sample size that leaves PLENTY of room for bad luck. I'd say that a .500 record in one-run games is about par for the course, so we're 4-21 where we should be 13-12 or 12-13. That's eight or nine games' difference, which could very easily just be bad luck and timing. Don't underestimate Lady Luck's influence.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 09:25 PM
Well since May 23, bad luck hasn't been the reason. Since May 23, lack of talent in the lineup has been the reason. Before that, we were underplaying our Pythagorean record by an almost unheard-of margin (we still are, but less so). I don't know where the "25/83" figure comes from, but even 83 games is a small sample size that leaves PLENTY of room for bad luck. I'd say that a .500 record in one-run games is about par for the course, so we're 4-21 where we should be 13-12 or 12-13. That's eight or nine games' difference, which could very easily just be bad luck and timing. Don't underestimate Lady Luck's influence.

25 1-run games in 83 total games is a huge sample size. That's NOT bad luck, it's poor play. I've watched probably 75 of those 83 games. Luck does not cause someone to strike out when making contact scores a run. Luck does not cause bad baserunning blunders or lobbing a BP fastball that is taken deep.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 09:32 PM
Bad play from the Outfield
Frenchy-.239-8-41
Blanco-.270-1-16 6sb
Kotsay-.294-4-21
B.Jones-.278-1-4
total=about .266-14-82
RIDICULOUS, now add in our bench who is starting
Gotay-.203-1-4
Norton-.206-2-12
Infante-.282-1-11=which is descent
Miller-.100-1-3
Its a WONDER we are where we are.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 09:47 PM
25 1-run games in 83 total games is a huge sample size. That's NOT bad luck, it's poor play. I've watched probably 75 of those 83 games. Luck does not cause someone to strike out when making contact scores a run. Luck does not cause bad baserunning blunders or lobbing a BP fastball that is taken deep.

Yeah all these one run games arent BAD LUCK its poor performance...agree there. I agree with you that offense has let us down but to over look that our bullpen has 13 of 23 SvO is a big deal as well. If we have a closer out there we at least have a 3 G lead in the division.

All in all Baseball is a team sport. Our offense has lost us some and our bullpen has lost us some. At least on the bullpen part we got Gonzo back and strong.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 09:50 PM
Bad play from the Outfield
Frenchy-.239-8-41
Blanco-.270-1-16 6sb
Kotsay-.294-4-21
B.Jones-.278-1-4
total=about .266-14-82
RIDICULOUS, now add in our bench who is starting
Gotay-.203-1-4
Norton-.206-2-12
Infante-.282-1-11=which is descent
Miller-.100-1-3
Its a WONDER we are where we are.

point??:confused:

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:17 PM
Yeah all these one run games arent BAD LUCK its poor performance...agree there. I agree with you that offense has let us down but to over look that our bullpen has 13 of 23 SvO is a big deal as well. If we have a closer out there we at least have a 3 G lead in the division.

All in all Baseball is a team sport. Our offense has lost us some and our bullpen has lost us some. At least on the bullpen part we got Gonzo back and strong.

True, but our bullpen has been pitching in a lot of tie games. So if the 'pen gives up 1 run, they get the loss and it's now "their" fault we lost. Here's the key: we're 14th in the majors in Runs Scored, we're 7th in Runs Allowed. So no matter who is pitching, we're not letting them score much. I just think if we could hit with runners on, our bullpen wouldn't have nearly the trouble it has had. Too many times the 'pen is pitching in 1-run or tie games and with Gonzo, Soriano, and Moylan out most of the year, that's just not going to work. I guess the difference is the bullpen has lost some games but it suffered injuries early and didn't have the studs. The offense, OTOH, has had the key guys all year up until a week ago and wasn't coming through. I expect much more from the likes of Chipper, Tex, Mac, Jeff, Esco, and KJ than I do from Acosta, Boyer, Bennett, Ohman, and Ring.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 10:29 PM
point??:confused:

OBVIOUSLY its not bad luck, its bad play.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:31 PM
^^^ To bad we can use Chipper, Tex, Mac, Jeff, Esco and KJ to close out game then. Way to many blown SvO. No matter whom is out there.

Fault where its due and our closers by committee just havent stepped up.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:32 PM
OBVIOUSLY its not bad luck, its bad play.

agreed.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:36 PM
^^^ To bad we can use Chipper, Tex, Mac, Jeff, Esco and KJ to close out game then. Way to many blown SvO. No matter whom is out there.

Fault where its due and our closers by committee just havent stepped up.

Neither have the hitters. At least the closers by committee aren't expected to be good so they have some excuse. What do the hitters have to say? If they had a stat for failed easy opportunities, our offense would lead the majors by a mile.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 10:37 PM
^^^ To bad we can use Chipper, Tex, Mac, Jeff, Esco and KJ to close out game then. Way to many blown SvO. No matter whom is out there.

Fault where its due and our closers by committee just havent stepped up.

I would agree. I think now with Gonzalez closing we know he is lights out in that role. Bullpen, besides Acosta/Boyer in the 9th and bennett anywhere, is actually pretty good now.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:38 PM
^^ nps....never said they wouldnt.....just saying our bullpen has let us down as well.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:39 PM
I would agree. I think now with Gonzalez closing we know he is lights out in that role. Bullpen, besides Acosta/Boyer in the 9th and bennett anywhere, is actually pretty good now.

yeah any where besideds closing and they are pretty good. Although they are being over worked mightingly. Both Boyer and Acosta are on pace for over 80 IP:rolleyes:

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:41 PM
^^ never said they wouldnt.....just saying our bullpen has let us down as well.

That's obvious. But if you had 2 kids (1 a straight-A student and 1 a straight-C student) and both got Ds on a report card, who would you be more disappointed in?

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 10:41 PM
Which is crazy for Rookies. Crazy for anyone.

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 10:42 PM
This thread went crazy...I don't even know where to jump in, so I'm gonna go with this bullpen angle. Lets say that Tex does walk like everyone says he will, and we do have roughly 50mil after this year. Where do we use free agency, and where do we use trades and internal options.....I think the offense will be addressed by Wren this season (again, I am hoping Bay or Nady...but we will see)....but K-Rod and kerry Wood are available next year....imagine having one of those guys to close games out.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:43 PM
That's obvious. But if you had 2 kids (1 a straight-A student and 1 a straight-C student) and both got Ds on a report card, who would you be more disappointed in?

great example.....:clap:

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:45 PM
This thread went crazy...I don't even know where to jump in, so I'm gonna go with this bullpen angle. Lets say that Tex does walk like everyone says he will, and we do have roughly 50mil after this year. Where do we use free agency, and where do we use trades and internal options.....I think the offense will be addressed by Wren this season (again, I am hoping Bay or Nady...but we will see)....but K-Rod and kerry Wood are available next year....imagine having one of those guys to close games out.

K Rod would never come here, no need to over spend for a closer. We have Gonzo, Moylan, Sori and maybe even Smoltz to close out games.

Our bullpen is the least of our worries. Scherholtz did a great job for us before he took off.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 10:46 PM
Imagine Having Gonzalez. This guy has done nothing but succeed in that role. Why take him out. Since taking over the closing role for good in Pittsburgh he hasn't blown a save. Lets let him save our games.
Outfield of 2010 will be Schafer, Gorkys, Heyward till then look for FA help. SP is set with Hudson, JJ, JoJo, Morton can plug someone in for the 5th spot if Campillo doesn;t work out. Last if Tex Walks, Promote one of our 1B with power potetial. We have alot.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:46 PM
Until we have hitters who can consistently score runs one way or another, it won't matter. We have the pitching, just lack the hitting.

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 10:47 PM
I agree with all of those points guys....so we don't make a huge splash with any of our left over cash???

laxman1017
06-29-2008, 10:49 PM
I don't mind our bullpen...when healthy....but I like our lineup a lot when healthy too....neither of which has panned out. Do we assume next year will be different, in terms of injuries???

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 10:50 PM
Well we might, but what 1b is out their coming into Free Agency. Like i said we will plug some holes, but nothing big. Our OF in the Minors is set along with our SP. We are actually rebuilding right now. In a few years we will be really good, with alot of home grown talent.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:50 PM
Our lineup was completely healthy until May 23 and we were still losing a ton of 1-run games. I like our lineup when Tex, Francoeur, and Diaz are actually hitting.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 10:53 PM
Well Tex is HOT!! Diaz still hits lefties just fine, and Francoeur cant go anywhere but up. So it wont be hard to outpreform what they were doing before.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:56 PM
Imagine Having Gonzalez. This guy has done nothing but succeed in that role. Why take him out. Since taking over the closing role for good in Pittsburgh he hasn't blown a save. Lets let him save our games.
Outfield of 2010 will be Schafer, Gorkys, Heyward till then look for FA help. SP is set with Hudson, JJ, JoJo, Morton can plug someone in for the 5th spot if Campillo doesn;t work out. Last if Tex Walks, Promote one of our 1B with power potetial. We have alot.

More like Hudson, Hanson, JJ, JoJo, Morton........looks good but i bet we add another veteran or youngster with at least #2 potential. Sheets any one??????

Whom whoudl you recommend from our system. The closest 1B we have are Mejia A+ and Freeman A....

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 11:31 PM
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO on Sheets. This guy is INJURY PRONE!!! and as injury prone as you can get. We dont need another Hampton. How about Cazerez/Thorman in AAA, or Kalu something in AA. and yes Freeman in A. Like i said not much in Free Agency either. We would need a bridge way for Freeman, but he is going to be good.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 11:33 PM
We could sign a corner OF and put them at 1st. If they can hit good enough, we can sacrifice defense at 1st.

jmtapia
06-30-2008, 03:19 AM
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO on Sheets. This guy is INJURY PRONE!!! and as injury prone as you can get. We dont need another Hampton. How about Cazerez/Thorman in AAA, or Kalu something in AA. and yes Freeman in A. Like i said not much in Free Agency either. We would need a bridge way for Freeman, but he is going to be good.

We already tried Thorman and he didnt work out...he is the Chuck james hitting.

If by Cazerez you mean Canizares....also no. You can probably play better Defense then him so he is not an option.

KK might be a choice...love his OBP but he is going to have a very very strong 2nd Half. That being said the Braves will look for a "Major Leaguer" to feel the void if he leaves.

GLASSMAN
06-30-2008, 08:28 AM
I could be wrong but if Tex walks I think our next first baseman may be Chipper.

rtgthree
06-30-2008, 10:48 AM
25 1-run games in 83 total games is a huge sample size. That's NOT bad luck, it's poor play. I've watched probably 75 of those 83 games. Luck does not cause someone to strike out when making contact scores a run. Luck does not cause bad baserunning blunders or lobbing a BP fastball that is taken deep.

Each of those individual events isn't bad luck, but their timing is absolutely luck-related. Your hypothetical player is going to strike out or make a baserunning blunder anyway. It's just bad luck that it happens at a critical point in the game.

I'm really not following you about this sample size thing. To begin with, twenty-five games is not a large sample size. Would you judge a hitter or a team on a 25 game performance? How about a reliever on 25 appearances? It's a small sample size whether it's 25 out of 25 or 25 out of 1024. If all of the Braves' first 25 games were decided by one run, is that a smaller sample size or a bigger one? How about if they only played 25 one-run games all season? Plus how is it an indication of anything (good or bad) that the Braves have had 25 one-run games in 83?

Plus, you're skewing my argument. I will grant you that the offense has sucked since May 23. Since that day, we are 1-9 in one-run games. So throw those out. We've just been sucking, so those losses aren't luck (well actually some of them still are, but for the sake of this discussion I'll let you have them as "sucking" losses). So prior to that we were 3-12.

Now statistically speaking, you can generally expect a .500 record out of a team (any team, no matter how good it might be) in its one-run games. If you don't buy that, just check the standings from last year. Boston led the AL East with a 96-66 record despite going 22-28 in its one-run games. Tampa Bay finished dead last in the AL East with a 66-96 record even though it was 22-21 in its one-run games. Philadelphia won the NL East despite a 14-23 one-run record, beating out the Mets, who had a 22-15 record in one-run contests.

So by that logic we should be 7-8 or 8-7 instead of 3-12 in those games prior to May 23. That's a difference of four or five games between where we SHOULD BE and where we ARE. There is no reason that luck can't decide four or five games out of eighty-three. It's not bad luck that has caused us to HAVE 25 one-run games out of 83. It's bad luck that has caused us to lose the four or five out of 83 that we shouldn't have lost.


Bad play from the Outfield
Frenchy-.239-8-41
Blanco-.270-1-16 6sb
Kotsay-.294-4-21
B.Jones-.278-1-4
total=about .266-14-82
RIDICULOUS, now add in our bench who is starting
Gotay-.203-1-4
Norton-.206-2-12
Infante-.282-1-11=which is descent
Miller-.100-1-3
Its a WONDER we are where we are.

Dude, all those stats are from players who only saw significant playing time AFTER May 23. And like I said:

Well since May 23, bad luck hasn't been the reason. Since May 23, lack of talent in the lineup has been the reason.
But that's injuries and nothing more.

Saltyfan
06-30-2008, 04:48 PM
Thats what I am saying. That is bad play from the people who are starting.

iTs_BoOgA
06-30-2008, 06:05 PM
Its been a minute since ive made my last post but reading a few threads already it seam like theres a option I havn't seen mention yet... Put Frenchy in the 3rd hole followed by chipper than tex than Mac.
1.Esco
2.Kelly
3.Frenchy
4.Chipper
5.Tex
6.Mac
7.
8.

Putting Frenchy in the 3rd spot might just jump start him. he'll get more pitches to hit. And I heard something about hes supose to try a new contact lense for night games. he has like a .320+ average in day games and like a .200 batting avg. at night games this year.

This will be the ultimate test for frenchy. we'll finally see if hes going to be that next Dale Murphy everyone thought he was going to be. we gotta know what type of hitter hes going to end up as. may be the deciding factor on how hard we try and re-sign Tex. And Chipper isnt getting any younger...

If Frenchy explodes the second half and hits .300 with 20 homers. It will make letting Tex go alot less painfull...

jmtapia
06-30-2008, 06:09 PM
^^^Not a bad idea. I was actually thinking of the same thing. With Chipper out this is the best time if we ever do it.

nps6724
06-30-2008, 06:15 PM
Chipper is the prototypical 3-hole hitter and Frenchy is nowhere close to good enough. Chipper's not moving no way, no how. But for the sake of argument, the prototypical 3-hole hitter hits for a high average and some power, around .290-.300, 30-40 doubles and 25-30 HR. The prototypical cleanup hitter hits for a lower average but more power, .270-.280, 40 doubles, 40 HR. The cleanup hitter will also strike out more. Jeff may develop into a cleanup hitter (he will need to find that power from '06 again), but IMO McCann is our next 3-hole hitter. Good eye, doesn't strike out much, good average when healthy, and hits a ton of doubles and his fair share of HR.

If yo want to try jumpstartig Jeff by moving him up, what I would do is go:

Blanco
Escobar
Chipper
Francoeur
Tex
McCann
Kelly
BJ/Kotsay/whoever

BRAVESFAN77
07-01-2008, 07:19 AM
Ok here. With Kotsay, Chipper and Escobar in the lineup, the pitchers Smoltz, Glavine were having trouble. It was the beginning of the year when pitchers were only going 3-4 innings. Those innings for Smoltz and Glavine never stretched. The difference now is that the pitching is solid and we have starters who can stay in the game and keep it under control.

With Kotsay, Escobar and Chipper back in the lineup, Tex will heat up and Frenchy will get it. With Frenchy its too many people telling him what to do, how to stand, how to adjust, how to breath. Sometimes when a hitter is having this hard a time people just need to leave him alone to figure it out.

(Frenchys mind at plate) stand this way, knees bent, adjust my hands down, no adjust up, relax, stand back some, dont lean, shoulder down, hands up. Are you getting this. Hes not going to hit the ball until people let him be to figure it out. He just needs to go out there and hit the ball. Quit mulling things over.

Ok sorry, Bottom line, we have a very very good rotation (hopefully wont be messes up with Glavine and Hamptons return) and a good lineup. They just have to get back and get busy. Dont count on Chipper though, hes going on the DL.

BRAVE KID
07-01-2008, 01:55 PM
^he is hitting the ball alright, right to the 3B and the SS.

iTs_BoOgA
07-02-2008, 01:04 AM
Ok here. With Kotsay, Chipper and Escobar in the lineup, the pitchers Smoltz, Glavine were having trouble. It was the beginning of the year when pitchers were only going 3-4 innings. Those innings for Smoltz and Glavine never stretched. The difference now is that the pitching is solid and we have starters who can stay in the game and keep it under control.

With Kotsay, Escobar and Chipper back in the lineup, Tex will heat up and Frenchy will get it. With Frenchy its too many people telling him what to do, how to stand, how to adjust, how to breath. Sometimes when a hitter is having this hard a time people just need to leave him alone to figure it out.

(Frenchys mind at plate) stand this way, knees bent, adjust my hands down, no adjust up, relax, stand back some, dont lean, shoulder down, hands up. Are you getting this. Hes not going to hit the ball until people let him be to figure it out. He just needs to go out there and hit the ball. Quit mulling things over.

Ok sorry, Bottom line, we have a very very good rotation (hopefully wont be messes up with Glavine and Hamptons return) and a good lineup. They just have to get back and get busy. Dont count on Chipper though, hes going on the DL.

But isnt that what happened to Andruw??? Look whats happened to him. He was a veteren... Frenchy is like 23. All 23 year old hitters get the same treament roughly with the numorous advice. Look Frenchy has a been a middle of the lineup guy his whole life. I feel like hes going to have a strong second half too as well. the Braves organisation(sp?) depends on it... And yes the Starting pitching has been great but, the word of the day is still (un-proven). almost need the rest of the year to see how Jo-Jo and Jairjens pan out.

If were still 2 games under .500 with two weeks left in the trade deadline...
Sell high on Tex, Kotsay,and Glavine. Maybe even K. Johnson... Ill even take Cash considerations and a bag of chalk for Hampton . lol

tcro24
07-02-2008, 02:15 PM
Ok here. With Kotsay, Chipper and Escobar in the lineup, the pitchers Smoltz, Glavine were having trouble. It was the beginning of the year when pitchers were only going 3-4 innings. Those innings for Smoltz and Glavine never stretched. The difference now is that the pitching is solid and we have starters who can stay in the game and keep it under control.

With Kotsay, Escobar and Chipper back in the lineup, Tex will heat up and Frenchy will get it. With Frenchy its too many people telling him what to do, how to stand, how to adjust, how to breath. Sometimes when a hitter is having this hard a time people just need to leave him alone to figure it out.

(Frenchys mind at plate) stand this way, knees bent, adjust my hands down, no adjust up, relax, stand back some, dont lean, shoulder down, hands up. Are you getting this. Hes not going to hit the ball until people let him be to figure it out. He just needs to go out there and hit the ball. Quit mulling things over.

Ok sorry, Bottom line, we have a very very good rotation (hopefully wont be messes up with Glavine and Hamptons return) and a good lineup. They just have to get back and get busy. Dont count on Chipper though, hes going on the DL.

With all due respect, I could not disagree more with your comments on Francoeur. IMO, a big part of his problem has been an unwillingness to change his approach until last night. Last night was the first time I'd seen him make an adjustment at the plate and it paid off with a hit to RF and a grounder that was ear-marked for center that Utley made a nice play on. For the first time in weeks, Francoeur wasn't at the plate chopping wood. He let his hands lead the bat and didn't look completely lost up there. If he continues to show that kind of maturity at the plate, he will come out of his season long slump.

iTs_BoOgA
07-02-2008, 10:10 PM
With all due respect, I could not disagree more with your comments on Francoeur. IMO, a big part of his problem has been an unwillingness to change his approach until last night. Last night was the first time I'd seen him make an adjustment at the plate and it paid off with a hit to RF and a grounder that was ear-marked for center that Utley made a nice play on. For the first time in weeks, Francoeur wasn't at the plate chopping wood. He let his hands lead the bat and didn't look completely lost up there. If he continues to show that kind of maturity at the plate, he will come out of his season long slump.

I could not agree more... He's too good of a pure hitter to continue this way. The same thing happened to kelly johnson back when he struglled early this year and early last year... Young guys are going to have they're slumps. Its part of the game.

nps6724
07-02-2008, 10:13 PM
I could not agree more... He's too good of a pure hitter to continue this way. The same thing happened to kelly johnson back when he struglled early this year and early last year... Young guys are going to have they're slumps. Its part of the game.

85 games is NOT a slump. And Jeff is far from a natural hitter. A natural hitter actually has an idea of what they are doing and what they need to do at the plate. Jeff has never shown that ability.

iTs_BoOgA
07-02-2008, 10:25 PM
85 games is NOT a slump. And Jeff is far from a natural hitter. A natural hitter actually has an idea of what they are doing and what they need to do at the plate. Jeff has never shown that ability.

85 games is alot... Nice punch there but, I still see Frenchy as a
.280/35/100+ type guy... I mean were talking about the guy who hit .290+ last year...

Another thought... You dont think hes hurt do you? like any rumors flying around about somthing physical with him?

nps6724
07-02-2008, 10:26 PM
85 games is alot... Nice punch there but, I still see Frenchy as a
.280/35/100+ type guy... I mean were talking about the guy who hit .290+ last year...

Another thought... You dont think hes hurt do you? like any rumors flying around about somthing physical with him?

He's had a hurt ankle all year (it's an old high school football injury) but that shouldn't affect his hitting so much that he is pitiful.

iTs_BoOgA
07-04-2008, 12:49 AM
He's had a hurt ankle all year (it's an old high school football injury) but that shouldn't affect his hitting so much that he is pitiful.

Im just saying we all know hes better than this...

jmtapia
07-04-2008, 01:48 AM
85 games is NOT a slump. And Jeff is far from a natural hitter. A natural hitter actually has an idea of what they are doing and what they need to do at the plate. Jeff has never shown that ability.

:horse::horse::horse:

BRAVE KID
07-04-2008, 01:54 AM
:horse::horse::horse:until the braves do something about it it is going to be repeated.

Saltyfan
07-04-2008, 07:37 PM
Francoeur is a FREE swinger, Always will be. If he misses he is not going to be good at all.