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dbrown1225
06-28-2008, 11:49 PM
I may get crucified for this thread. In fact I should probably expect to. But I have to get some things off my chest.

I believe the following are all baseball myths...

> A starting staff 'feeds off each other' when they're pitching well

> Inning to inning momentum/ game to game momentum

> "Fire" or "passion" having ANYTHING to do with winning baseball

I'll add more as they come to me.

I just think we project our feelings as fans onto players too often. And we want to believe that they feel what we feel.

As a fan I'm trying to think with my head rather than my heart.

giventofly
06-28-2008, 11:52 PM
I'm gonna move this to the MLB forum.

I'd like to see what fans of other teams say.

Superboy21
06-29-2008, 12:08 AM
I may get crucified for this thread. In fact I should probably expect to. But I have to get some things off my chest.

I believe the following are all baseball myths...

> A starting staff 'feeds off each other' when they're pitching well

> Inning to inning momentum/ game to game momentum

> "Fire" or "passion" having ANYTHING to do with winning baseball

I'll add more as they come to me.

I just think we project our feelings as fans onto players too often. And we want to believe that they feel what we feel.

As a fan I'm trying to think with my head rather than my heart.


I kind of disagree with you, especially with the pitching staff and fire/passion one. First off, I'm almost certain that when athletes see their teammates and team playing great in whatever sport or aspect of the sport they play in, they gain a sense of comfort and confidence that allows them to perform at a better clip. In the case of a baseball pitcher, there are many variables that come into whether or not you are performing at the best of your abilities (e.g whether you have your stuff, the lineups you are facing, run support, etc.). With that said, even if you lack your best stuff sometimes, your confidence and thinking will help you if you have past knowledge of your teammates that were put in similar situations and have succeeded. As for "fire" and "passion," I believe that to perform at the high level that these guys do a daily basis, you automatically have to have a passion for what you are doing. If you come to the ballpark every day bored as hell, and thinking that this game is some walk in the park, you will probably suck it up, and lose your contract and/or playing time. As fans, we see these uber athletes make the hardest plays look so easy on a daily basis and we take it for granted of how good and passionate these guys are for their sport. Plus, I am an athlete myself, and having fire and passion gives me loads of confidence and adrenaline, which makes me perform to the best of my ability, ultimately helping my team in a positive manner.

Another myth I would like to introduce and disagree with is the homefield advantage stuff. Some people believe that baseball players don't need to be at their home stadium to win games and such, but I do. The familiarity it brings to the players, along with the fan support helps fuel players into performing better and therefore winning games. What do you guys think?

JHG722
06-29-2008, 12:30 AM
I've always believed that homefield/homecourt advantage is a bunch of bull****, tbh.

Scheck
06-29-2008, 12:31 AM
I am pretty damn sure I read in my Statistics book that they ran a test that proved that there is such thing as home field advantage

School=Teacher of such important things :D

JHG722
06-29-2008, 12:34 AM
I dont care what the statistics say, even though clearly, teams play better at home (at least this year). You should want to win, and try to win, no matter where you're playing. I never understood why it matters whether you're at home, or on the moon.

redwhitenblue
06-29-2008, 12:34 AM
I am pretty damn sure I read in my Statistics book that they ran a test that proved that there is such thing as home field advantage

School=Teacher of such important things :D
Statistically there isn't, but their are years like this year where home shows a distinct advantage in the numbers

Acronym
06-29-2008, 12:46 AM
If you don't believe in momentum all that does is make me think you never played many sports.

It can't be quantified, but you can be damn sure the players feel it. And it impacts them.

It seem like you think baseball is played in a vacuum- everybody gives their top effort all the time, the best team on paper wins, and it has nothing to do with the mental state of the teams.

Sadly, that's not how it works. See the Rockies last year as a textbook example of momentum. Unless you believe that they simply got lucky 20 games in a row to beat sometimes clearly superior teams rather handily.

dbrown1225
06-29-2008, 01:03 AM
If you don't believe in momentum all that does is make me think you never played many sports.

It can't be quantified, but you can be damn sure the players feel it. And it impacts them.

It seem like you think baseball is played in a vacuum- everybody gives their top effort all the time, the best team on paper wins, and it has nothing to do with the mental state of the teams.

Sadly, that's not how it works. See the Rockies last year as a textbook example of momentum. Unless you believe that they simply got lucky 20 games in a row to beat sometimes clearly superior teams rather handily.


I've played sports my entire life. And I never said that emotion has no place in the game.

If a pitcher gets out of a bases loaded jam by striking out the side obviously the entire team will feel good and relieved that he didn't give up any runs. But if the batter due up first the next inning is 0-10 lifetime against the pitcher he is not more likely to get a hit because of what his teammate did in the previous inning.

dbrown1225
06-29-2008, 01:09 AM
I've always believed that homefield/homecourt advantage is a bunch of bull****, tbh.

How can you say that when SO many teams this year are playing so well at home and so bad on the road?

JHG722
06-29-2008, 01:13 AM
Because it depends on the given year.

iam brett favre
06-29-2008, 01:15 AM
Wow home field defenitley means something.. look at the NBA playoffs :shrug:

Your Name Here
06-29-2008, 01:21 AM
Clutch = Myth.

dbrown1225
06-29-2008, 01:31 AM
Clutch = Myth.

i agree

iam brett favre
06-29-2008, 01:36 AM
I do agree with clutch.

RedHeadsRule
06-29-2008, 01:48 AM
Clutch = Myth.

I think I remember a discussion about clutch in the Cubs forum a while ago, but I don't really remember what was said. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with you, but I've seen you say clutch is a myth a few times lately, and I'm just wondering what your reasoning is.

iam brett favre
06-29-2008, 01:55 AM
To me, I dont think it matters when you come up, the pressure is always on the pitcher.

Your Name Here
06-29-2008, 02:06 AM
I think I remember a discussion about clutch in the Cubs forum a while ago, but I don't really remember what was said. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with you, but I've seen you say clutch is a myth a few times lately, and I'm just wondering what your reasoning is.

It implies that some runs are "worth" more than others.

If it's tied 7-7 in the 12th, and a guy drives in a run to win the game, he is seen as "clutch". But the guy that hit an RBI double in the 5th to make the score 5-3 isn't clutch, even though without his hit the game never goes to extra innings. If a guy hits a solo shot in the 3rd inning to break a 1-1 tie, and final score is 2-1, he's not considered "clutch", because he didn't do it in the 9th inning. EVERY run matters, and counts exactly the same.



Furthermore, "clutch" implies that there are people that can break the laws of physics and "give 110%", and do so at a time of their choosing as though it's something they can turn on or off like a switch. That's a load of crap. There is no such thing as an "extra gear".

dbrown1225
06-29-2008, 02:42 AM
and also, most "clutch" hitters are usually GOOD hitters.

there aren't many awful hitters who all of the sudden turn "clutch"

lil'papi
06-29-2008, 07:54 AM
I dont care what the statistics say, even though clearly, teams play better at home (at least this year). You should want to win, and try to win, no matter where you're playing. I never understood why it matters whether you're at home, or on the moon.

The crowd....and emotion we are humans not robots. Trying harder in BB can cause failure. The game is mental... pretty simple really.

Great pitchers and veterans can thrive in hostile environments they get off on shutting up crowds. Younger players play to their emotions more.

BB is mental. Yogism needed......"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

JHG722
06-29-2008, 01:50 PM
The crowd....and emotion we are humans not robots. Trying harder in BB can cause failure. The game is mental... pretty simple really.

Great pitchers and veterans can thrive in hostile environments they get off on shutting up crowds. Younger players play to their emotions more.

BB is mental. Yogism needed......"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

Again, I think that's all horse****.

76YazwSideburns
06-29-2008, 10:03 PM
It implies that some runs are "worth" more than others.

If it's tied 7-7 in the 12th, and a guy drives in a run to win the game, he is seen as "clutch". But the guy that hit an RBI double in the 5th to make the score 5-3 isn't clutch, even though without his hit the game never goes to extra innings. If a guy hits a solo shot in the 3rd inning to break a 1-1 tie, and final score is 2-1, he's not considered "clutch", because he didn't do it in the 9th inning. EVERY run matters, and counts exactly the same.



Furthermore, "clutch" implies that there are people that can break the laws of physics and "give 110%", and do so at a time of their choosing as though it's something they can turn on or off like a switch. That's a load of crap. There is no such thing as an "extra gear".

Sorry to nitpick but effort and concentration are variable and have nothing to do with the laws of physics which are fixed - and thus, constant and called laws.

Further, you seem to have muddled clutch and value. You're right, the lead changing home run hit in the 3rd inning is equally valuable as the lead changing home run hit in the bottom of the ninth - equally quantifiable, equally valuable.

Equally difficult, probably not. The hitter in the 3rd inning wasn't hitting with the knowledge that his out would end the game. He wasn't feeling nearly the pressure as the ninth inning batter. In all liklihood the fans weren't as noisy. He wasn't facing a closer with a 1.86 ERA. Etc., etc.

I'm not saying clutch hitting exists - I'm not saying it doesn't either. Mostly what I'm saying is you don't define your terms well and I disagree with you.

evasiveanswers
06-30-2008, 12:21 PM
Again, I think that's all horse****.

I don't see how you could have a Red Sox logo on your sig and not believe in home field advantage. Boston's been the best or close to best team at home for the last three or four years, and more or less average on the road. The discrepancy this year, just in that one team, gives some legitimacy to the concept. Every sport has a track record of teams winning the big games more often at home, because of the emotional boost that an active and supportive crowd gives a player. It's not something that can be "measured", but not everything can.

And as for "clutch", I'm not sure where I stand on the issue, but I know that there are players who are decidedly un-clutch. You know, those guys who you could count on to strike out or ground into a double play with the game on the line.

sboyajian
06-30-2008, 12:32 PM
I've always believed that homefield/homecourt advantage is a bunch of bull****, tbh.

Boston Red Sox
Home: 31-10
Away: 19-24

Cadarn
06-30-2008, 12:42 PM
It implies that some runs are "worth" more than others.

Furthermore, "clutch" implies that there are people that can break the laws of physics and "give 110%", and do so at a time of their choosing as though it's something they can turn on or off like a switch. That's a load of crap. There is no such thing as an "extra gear".


There are those who perform well under high pressure situations and those who don't.

Most of you guys i this thread have clearly never been a part of performance based competition (music, sports, whatver) or you simply lack a basic understanding of the human condition.

JHG722
06-30-2008, 12:45 PM
I played baseball for 12 years.

STLCards002
06-30-2008, 12:49 PM
A starting staff 'feeds off each other' when they're pitching well

Inning to inning momentum/ game to game momentum

"Fire" or "passion" having ANYTHING to do with winning baseball

1. I've never been a pitcher, but I'm not sure about that one. It's kinda related to your second question. But I don't think I believe that one.

2. Both are true IMO, actually for most sports. I think more for the individual rather than the team as a whole.

3. Again that's for any sport. If you put everything into it, then your gonna do better.

CrazyCrackar
06-30-2008, 01:14 PM
I played baseball for 12 years.

You prob didnt have 50,000 fans waching you during any of that time.

I do believe in Clutch. It all comes down to a players mental make up. Players arent machines they have feelings and emotions. Some players get nervous/afraid in those situations. While others get an adrenaline rush and thrive in big time situations. Ive played with plenty of kids who where physically gifted, just not mentally tough. Some people arent phased by the spotlight, some peope are.
Who knows maybe some of you guys are people that dont get phased, and you just dont understand when you see others get affected. However for the most part i think the majority of you are people who watch these guys and think it looks easy, meanwhile in reality if you where in a situation with millions of people watching you, you'd probably screw up yourselves.

blams
06-30-2008, 01:23 PM
clutch is a myth.

most players are "clutch" truthfully, all it takes to get "clutch" hits is the ability to not let your emotions/nerves get the best of you.

90 percent of players are "clutch" even arod.

dbrown1225
07-13-2008, 01:04 PM
1. I've never been a pitcher, but I'm not sure about that one. It's kinda related to your second question. But I don't think I believe that one.

2. Both are true IMO, actually for most sports. I think more for the individual rather than the team as a whole.

3. Again that's for any sport. If you put everything into it, then your gonna do better.



There are momentum swings in basketball and football. Those are sports where energy matters and I can agree with that. But baseball is based on individual matchups. If my pitcher just got out of a bases loaded jam, am I more likely to get a hit next inning against a pitcher who has dominated me my entire career?

Also, the fire and passion thing is ridiculous. It's the most ambiguous label to put on a team that isn't hitting...'they don't have any fire'. No, they're just not hitting. I don't need to see a player get emotional to know that they care.

dcannon456
07-14-2008, 01:30 AM
It implies that some runs are "worth" more than others.

If it's tied 7-7 in the 12th, and a guy drives in a run to win the game, he is seen as "clutch". But the guy that hit an RBI double in the 5th to make the score 5-3 isn't clutch, even though without his hit the game never goes to extra innings. If a guy hits a solo shot in the 3rd inning to break a 1-1 tie, and final score is 2-1, he's not considered "clutch", because he didn't do it in the 9th inning. EVERY run matters, and counts exactly the same.



Furthermore, "clutch" implies that there are people that can break the laws of physics and "give 110%", and do so at a time of their choosing as though it's something they can turn on or off like a switch. That's a load of crap. There is no such thing as an "extra gear".


that part kinda fails, maybe players just cant play too there 100% all the time....like a mother lifting a a telephone pole to save her baby. thats ****in clutch man!

bagwell368
07-14-2008, 08:45 AM
I've always believed that homefield/homecourt advantage is a bunch of bull****, tbh.

Oh come on. Basketball, baseball, and football home teams do better then road teams every year, year in and year out. Are there exceptions? Sure like the Yanks or Red Sox in TB.

Something about the better clubhouse, home cooking, home bed, home fans that give a sizable advantage.

It axiomatic.

torontocubs
07-14-2008, 09:14 AM
Home Field Advantage more has to do with less fatigue. Looking at it that most teams on home stands have been staying in the same place for a week, less fatigue, no need for travel, often at home with their family. It is easy to understand how a team on the road can underperform, simply because of the strain on a body of constant travel.

jetsfan28
07-14-2008, 09:16 AM
I think the Mets have proven this week that a starting staff "feeding off each other" isn't a myth, and that there is such thing as game to game momentum