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View Full Version : Trade idea: Giants trade for Jeff Francoeur



rarryronds
06-28-2008, 06:07 PM
I'm a Giants fan. We have a thread that started with Matt Cain's status as a Giant and turned into trading pieces for Jeff Francoeur. I would love to have Francoeur, some Giants fans don't think he is worth our top organzational prospect, 17 year old Angel Villalona. I said I'd trade him for Villalona. (from a Giants perspective, I personally don't think the Braves would do it)

Enjoy this quote I pulled on someone's response in comparing Jeff with Randy Winn...

Originally Posted by Gigantes4Life
I'm guessing you don't understand the part where Francoeur will never even be as good as Randy Winn right?

CrippledRam
06-28-2008, 06:23 PM
Francoeur for Cain straight up =]

jdiddy24
06-28-2008, 06:39 PM
I'm a Giants fan. We have a thread that started with Matt Cain's status as a Giant and turned into trading pieces for Jeff Francoeur. I would love to have Francoeur, some Giants fans don't think he is worth our top organzational prospect, 17 year old Angel Villalona. I said I'd trade him for Villalona. (from a Giants perspective, I personally don't think the Braves would do it)

Enjoy this quote I pulled on someone's response in comparing Jeff with Randy Winn...

Originally Posted by Gigantes4Life
I'm guessing you don't understand the part where Francoeur will never even be as good as Randy Winn right?

lol... good joke. Considering Franky has accomplished more in his short time in the bigs at age 23 than Winn has in his entire career

CAIN=FUTURE
06-28-2008, 08:38 PM
Let me clear this up for all Braves fans right now. Francoeur is no were near as valuable as Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Angel Villalona, or any other of the Giants top prospects for that mater. For some reason rarryronds is very high on Francoeur. Francoeur is not the fantastic, hes average at best.

Just saying, because I dont want this to turn in the thread we have like this in the Giants forum.

Zaunnie
06-28-2008, 09:06 PM
Jesus H Christ don't scare me like that

tomno00
06-28-2008, 09:31 PM
hey if the giants want to give us cain for franceour then hell yea i would do it.. franceour has never impressed me.. He may be only 24, but he has been playing baseball all of his life and his problems will take brain surgery to fix. He seriously needs to take some hitting lessons from his buddy McCann or maybe he should just go back to playing football. he could probably make it in the AFL.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-28-2008, 10:33 PM
hey if the giants want to give us cain for franceour then hell yea i would do it.. franceour has never impressed me.. He may be only 24, but he has been playing baseball all of his life and his problems will take brain surgery to fix. He seriously needs to take some hitting lessons from his buddy McCann or maybe he should just go back to playing football. he could probably make it in the AFL.

Did you not read my last post? The Giants will never do that, ever.

robdizzle3
06-29-2008, 12:54 AM
I think the Giants would dothat for a Major League ready Outfielder with a Gold Glove and tremendous upside

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 12:58 AM
I think the Giants would dothat for a Major League ready Outfielder with a Gold Glove and tremendous upside

Yeah, trade a future Cy Young Calibar pitcher for and average outfielder. The Giants will totaly go for that trade.

robdizzle3
06-29-2008, 01:03 AM
Yeah, trade a future Cy Young Calibar pitcher for and average outfielder. The Giants will totaly go for that trade.

Frenchy is a future All Star and maybe MVP if he puts it together.Just as you say Matt Cain is Cy Young Caliber he isnt there yet because he i like Frenchy meaning he will have a good outing followed up with two or three bad ones.Dont get me wrong I know Cain can pitch ut I can see that deal being accepted

FC_4_life
06-29-2008, 01:04 AM
I think the Giants would dothat for a Major League ready Outfielder with a Gold Glove and tremendous upside

Francouer will be a solid starting outfielder in the league and will hit 15-25 HRs each year, but Matt Cain has Cy Young Potential and has the ability to throw a No-Hitter every time he goes out. He is one of the cornerstones of our future, so we would need a top prospect (i.e. Heyward or Schafer). Francouer will be solid but not a superstar, so he wouldn't be enough.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 01:07 AM
Frenchy is a future All Star and maybe MVP if he puts it together.Just as you say Matt Cain is Cy Young Caliber he isnt there yet because he i like Frenchy meaning he will have a good outing followed up with two or three bad ones.Dont get me wrong I know Cain can pitch ut I can see that deal being accepted

No one who knows anything about baseball thinks Francoeur has as much potential as Matt Cain, not even close.

robdizzle3
06-29-2008, 01:12 AM
No one who knows anything about baseball thinks Francoeur has as much potential as Matt Cain, not even close.

You have your opinion and I have mine.Frenchy has the tools to be a great player and very dangerous hitter but he isnt putting it together because he isnt working as hard as other Major Leaguers

BRAVE KID
06-29-2008, 01:13 AM
No one who knows anything about baseball thinks Francoeur has as much potential as Matt Cain, not even close.well bud you don't compare a pitchers potential to a hitters.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 01:39 AM
well bud you don't compare a pitchers potential to a hitters.

Let put it this way, Matt Cain will produce a lot more than Francoeur will through out their respective carrers. Matt Cain has already proven he can flat out dominate, can you say that about Francoeur?

ATLBravesfan
06-29-2008, 01:53 AM
Let put it this way, Matt Cain will produce a lot more than Francoeur will through out their respective carrers. Matt Cain has already proven he can flat out dominate, can you say that about Francoeur?

Frenchy has been an everyday starter since the day he was called up, he's 24, and he's been starting for almost 4 years now. He produced imediately, he just ain't been doing it this season.
On most teams, Matt Cain would not have been in the majors for the last 4 seasons. Fortunately for him, ya'lls pitching staff has been a joke since he came into your organization so you didn't have a better option. He's great don't get me wrong, but Frenchy ain't chopped liver compared to Cain, nor is Cain Brandon Webb either.

rarryronds
06-29-2008, 01:54 AM
I started this thread without the intention of an offer of Matt Cain for Jeff Francoeur. I think we have the pieces to get him without giving up a Cain, Lincecum or Sanchez.

Randy Winn for your playoff run
Nate Schierholtz for your prospect
Jack Taschner for your bullpen

robdizzle3
06-29-2008, 01:56 AM
And at times Frenchy has shown that he can flat out rake the ball and last year he started going the other way and his average went up because of it.If Frenchy can be calm at the plate watch out Major League pitchers

nps6724
06-29-2008, 01:58 AM
Matt Cain has already proven he can flat out dominate, can you say that about Francoeur?

Umm, WHAT? What exactly has Cain done? 2.5 years in the majors, 1 sub-4 ERA year. Only 1 winning season. 200 IP once. You call THAT dominant? Seriously? He's given up 4+ runs 7 times in 17 starts this year; he did it 8 times in 32 starts last year and 13 times in 31 starts in '06. Lincecum is the dominant one, as well as the more consistent one.

Francouer, 1 year old than Cain, has topped 100 RBI in his only 2 full seasons, hit 29 HR once, 40 2B once, hit .300 and .293, been in the top 5 of 2-out RBI leaders since he got to the majors, was 2nd in the ROY voting despite only playing 70 games, and lead all ML OFs in assists in '07 and was 3rd in '05 (you know, the year he played in only 70 games). He also leads all ML OFs in assists SINCE '05.

Lord knows I'm the first on this board to dog Frenchy and he pisses me off at least once every AB by doing something stupid, but he's proven he can be great; he just hasn't put it all together for a whole season. What has Cain done to prove he's even one of the top 50 pitchers in the majors? Potential says he WILL be great, but he hasn't been great YET. Through 475 games, Francoeur has a .273 career AVG, 294 RBI, 103 2B and 70 HR. And that's with him having a very "off" season so far. What exactly has Cain done with his 26-35 career record and 3.87 career ERA? So far, Francoeur's best season > Cain's best season.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 02:00 AM
I started this thread without the intention of an offer of Matt Cain for Jeff Francoeur. I think we have the pieces to get him without giving up a Cain, Lincecum or Sanchez.

Randy Winn for your playoff run
Nate Schierholtz for your prospect
Jack Taschner for your bullpen

If we trade Frenchy we are getting a stud SP coming in our direction. Right now he is going no where bc his stock is way to low for our liking

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 02:05 AM
Umm, WHAT? What exactly has Cain done? 2.5 years in the majors, 1 sub-4 ERA year. Only 1 winning season. 200 IP once. You call THAT dominant? Seriously? He's given up 4+ runs 7 times in 17 starts this year; he did it 8 times in 32 starts last year and 13 times in 31 starts in '06. Lincecum is the dominant one, as well as the more consistent one.

Francouer, 1 year old than Cain, has topped 100 RBI in his only 2 full seasons, hit 29 HR once, 40 2B once, hit .300 and .293, been in the top 5 of 2-out RBI leaders since he got to the majors, was 2nd in the ROY voting despite only playing 70 games, and lead all ML OFs in assists in '07 and was 3rd in '05 (you know, the year he played in only 70 games). He also leads all ML OFs in assists SINCE '05.

Lord knows I'm the first on this board to dog Frenchy and he pisses me off at least once every AB by doing something stupid, but he's proven he can be great; he just hasn't put it all together for a whole season. What has Cain done to prove he's even one of the top 50 pitchers in the majors? Potential says he WILL be great, but he hasn't been great YET. Through 475 games, Francoeur has a .273 career AVG, 294 RBI, 103 2B and 70 HR. And that's with him having a very "off" season so far. What exactly has Cain done with his 26-35 career record and 3.87 career ERA? So far, Francoeur's best season > Cain's best season.

For the first time i can agree with you on a topic revolving around Frenchy. Great post.

Im the kind of person that will always take a player that goes out there 162 times rather then 30+ times. Obviously depends on whom these players are but in this case based on potential i would take Frenchy 100% of the time.

robdizzle3
06-29-2008, 02:09 AM
Umm, WHAT? What exactly has Cain done? 2.5 years in the majors, 1 sub-4 ERA year. Only 1 winning season. 200 IP once. You call THAT dominant? Seriously? He's given up 4+ runs 7 times in 17 starts this year; he did it 8 times in 32 starts last year and 13 times in 31 starts in '06. Lincecum is the dominant one, as well as the more consistent one.

Francouer, 1 year old than Cain, has topped 100 RBI in his only 2 full seasons, hit 29 HR once, 40 2B once, hit .300 and .293, been in the top 5 of 2-out RBI leaders since he got to the majors, was 2nd in the ROY voting despite only playing 70 games, and lead all ML OFs in assists in '07 and was 3rd in '05 (you know, the year he played in only 70 games). He also leads all ML OFs in assists SINCE '05.

Lord knows I'm the first on this board to dog Frenchy and he pisses me off at least once every AB by doing something stupid, but he's proven he can be great; he just hasn't put it all together for a whole season. What has Cain done to prove he's even one of the top 50 pitchers in the majors? Potential says he WILL be great, but he hasn't been great YET. Through 475 games, Francoeur has a .273 career AVG, 294 RBI, 103 2B and 70 HR. And that's with him having a very "off" season so far. What exactly has Cain done with his 26-35 career record and 3.87 career ERA? So far, Francoeur's best season > Cain's best season.

Wow nps nice stats you pulled up for this one and you said what I have been trying to say and I can speak for you by saying you do get pissed at Frenchy LOL.Wow all that talk about Cain this and Cain that but he has a 26-35 record

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 02:25 AM
Wow nps nice stats you pulled up for this one and you said what I have been trying to say and I can speak for you by saying you do get pissed at Frenchy LOL.Wow all that talk about Cain this and Cain that but he has a 26-35 record

And thats the thing that Giants fans dont understand. It doesnt matter how much pitching you have. At the end of the game a game is decided by how many runs you score.

It really though to ask your young hurlers to go out there and give you 7-8 IP and 3 or less ER night in night out. A team just cant be successful in that manner. Giants are going to have to fork up some of that pitching wealth for some hitters.

However, teams know the Giants are loaded with pitching wealth and that they need hitting desperately so they are going to squeeze a bit more out of them. Just like any team would from the Rays in a blockbuster trade. HELL, just like the Rangers did with us in teh Tex deal.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 03:05 AM
Frenchy has been an everyday starter since the day he was called up, he's 24, and he's been starting for almost 4 years now. He produced imediately, he just ain't been doing it this season.
On most teams, Matt Cain would not have been in the majors for the last 4 seasons. Fortunately for him, ya'lls pitching staff has been a joke since he came into your organization so you didn't have a better option. He's great don't get me wrong, but Frenchy ain't chopped liver compared to Cain, nor is Cain Brandon Webb either.

Are you ****ing kidding me? He could have been the ace of certain staffs over the last 3 years. Wow. You are not bright are you? I love how this was the stupist thing ever said in the history of man kind. Do you even watch baseball? Ill go ahead and guess no. Because you most not really know who Matt Cain is.

Oh, btw I think you just earned a sig quote.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 03:08 AM
Umm, WHAT? What exactly has Cain done? 2.5 years in the majors, 1 sub-4 ERA year. Only 1 winning season. 200 IP once. You call THAT dominant? Seriously? He's given up 4+ runs 7 times in 17 starts this year; he did it 8 times in 32 starts last year and 13 times in 31 starts in '06. Lincecum is the dominant one, as well as the more consistent one.

Francouer, 1 year old than Cain, has topped 100 RBI in his only 2 full seasons, hit 29 HR once, 40 2B once, hit .300 and .293, been in the top 5 of 2-out RBI leaders since he got to the majors, was 2nd in the ROY voting despite only playing 70 games, and lead all ML OFs in assists in '07 and was 3rd in '05 (you know, the year he played in only 70 games). He also leads all ML OFs in assists SINCE '05.

Lord knows I'm the first on this board to dog Frenchy and he pisses me off at least once every AB by doing something stupid, but he's proven he can be great; he just hasn't put it all together for a whole season. What has Cain done to prove he's even one of the top 50 pitchers in the majors? Potential says he WILL be great, but he hasn't been great YET. Through 475 games, Francoeur has a .273 career AVG, 294 RBI, 103 2B and 70 HR. And that's with him having a very "off" season so far. What exactly has Cain done with his 26-35 career record and 3.87 career ERA? So far, Francoeur's best season > Cain's best season.

This is why I hat people who just look at a players stats and think they know every thing about that player. Im talking the starts where he is on. I take it you have never watched Matt Cain pitch. He has proven he can flat dominate, its the consitency with comand he lacks. Once he learns consitncy, suck for the rest of MLB. Matt Cain has been great, just not a hole season. Hes still learning. He wont reach full potential for anoter 2 or 3 years.

robdizzle3
06-29-2008, 03:21 AM
^ If thats the case why are you knocking Frenchy because allhe has to do is learn to be selective or better said have better plate discipline and if he does that then he will be a star then Frenchy has the edge because he plays everyday and I do mean he plays everyday like he rarely misses a game and the only one he missed was because he got rest from Bobby that he didnt even want.

Humongo
06-29-2008, 03:42 AM
Let me clear this up for all Braves fans right now. Francoeur is no were near as valuable as Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Angel Villalona, or any other of the Giants top prospects for that mater. For some reason rarryronds is very high on Francoeur. Francoeur is not the fantastic, hes average at best.

Just saying, because I dont want this to turn in the thread we have like this in the Giants forum.


Yeah, trade a future Cy Young Calibar pitcher for and average outfielder. The Giants will totaly go for that trade.


No one who knows anything about baseball thinks Francoeur has as much potential as Matt Cain, not even close.


Let put it this way, Matt Cain will produce a lot more than Francoeur will through out their respective carrers. Matt Cain has already proven he can flat out dominate, can you say that about Francoeur?

You're not really helping your argument by regurgitating the same opinion over and over and over again without backing it up. I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, but you're speaking as if the statement Matt Cain>Jeff Francoeur is a cold, hard fact. It isn't, and you can't make it one, but you can convince others too if you use some stats, or scouting reports or second opinions or something to back up you claim.

Humongo
06-29-2008, 03:46 AM
And Cain hasn't IMO proven he can dominate. He's been good, and has the potential to be great, but most don't consider a 3.65 ERA in a pitcher's park in the NL to be "flat out dominate". So don't use that anymore.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 03:52 AM
Are you ****ing kidding me? He could have been the ace of certain staffs over the last 3 years. Wow. You are not bright are you? I love how this was the stupist thing ever said in the history of man kind. Do you even watch baseball? Ill go ahead and guess no. Because you most not really know who Matt Cain is.

Oh, btw I think you just earned a sig quote.

i doubt 26-35 with a 3.87 would qualify as an ACE.....maybe for the Giants but defenitly not here. And its that consistency night in night out that makes an Ace. Why do you think we knock Hudson so much. The guy has good numbers but to inconsistent this season.

Even in Cain's best season (2007) he was way to inconsistent.

April 1.54 ERA
May 5.25 ERA
June 3.27 ERA
July 6.58 ERA
August 2.18 ERA
September 4.08 ERA

Not very ACE material IMO. Potential is there but he isnt there yet.

giantspwn
06-29-2008, 03:53 AM
Umm, WHAT? What exactly has Cain done? 2.5 years in the majors, 1 sub-4 ERA year. Only 1 winning season. 200 IP once. You call THAT dominant? Seriously? He's given up 4+ runs 7 times in 17 starts this year; he did it 8 times in 32 starts last year and 13 times in 31 starts in '06. Lincecum is the dominant one, as well as the more consistent one.

Francouer, 1 year old than Cain, has topped 100 RBI in his only 2 full seasons, hit 29 HR once, 40 2B once, hit .300 and .293, been in the top 5 of 2-out RBI leaders since he got to the majors, was 2nd in the ROY voting despite only playing 70 games, and lead all ML OFs in assists in '07 and was 3rd in '05 (you know, the year he played in only 70 games). He also leads all ML OFs in assists SINCE '05.

Lord knows I'm the first on this board to dog Frenchy and he pisses me off at least once every AB by doing something stupid, but he's proven he can be great; he just hasn't put it all together for a whole season. What has Cain done to prove he's even one of the top 50 pitchers in the majors? Potential says he WILL be great, but he hasn't been great YET. Through 475 games, Francoeur has a .273 career AVG, 294 RBI, 103 2B and 70 HR. And that's with him having a very "off" season so far. What exactly has Cain done with his 26-35 career record and 3.87 career ERA? So far, Francoeur's best season > Cain's best season.

Francoeur has produced more as an MLB ready player thus far but Cain's potential is far greater. Era and a win loss record is a poor way of judging a young pitchers future sucess in the majors. His opponents BA against him is only .222 his career whip is only at 1.26 and he posts 2.10 k/bb ratio.. Cain has show glimpses of being a very dominant pitcher, having already thrown numerous 1 hitter's. Although, Cain's season has started off slow his talent still cannot be denied. He's still only 23 years old but has shown he has ace like potential. And his potential is far more than Francouer will ever be worth..

lincecum=future
06-29-2008, 03:56 AM
Wow nps nice stats you pulled up for this one and you said what I have been trying to say and I can speak for you by saying you do get pissed at Frenchy LOL.Wow all that talk about Cain this and Cain that but he has a 26-35 record

:rolleyes: Thats a great way to rate a pitcher. He has a ****ty record because he plays for the Giants.

Francouer actually reminds me a lot of Cain. They both have a ton of potential and at times are great but they are too inconsistent. But the reason why Cain is worth more than Francouer is because A) he's a pitcher, and as we all know pitchers are more valuable (especially with Cain's potential to be an ace) and B) Francoeur is having a horrible season this year and doesn't have enough value at this point to get a young pitcher such as Cain.

giantspwn
06-29-2008, 04:02 AM
^Plus Francouer's an OF, every starting OF we have is better than him at the moment. OF's are a dime a dozen compared to starting pitching talent.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 04:03 AM
:rolleyes: Thats a great way to rate a pitcher. He has a ****ty record because he plays for the Giants.

Francouer actually reminds me a lot of Cain. They both have a ton of potential and at times are great but they are too inconsistent. But the reason why Cain is worth more than Francouer is because A) he's a pitcher, and as we all know pitchers are more valuable (especially with Cain's potential to be an ace) and B) Francoeur is having a horrible season this year and doesn't have enough value at this point to get a young pitcher such as Cain.

Sure Frenchy's value has diminished this year bc of his production. But IMO a hitter with the potential like Frenchy would have a larger impact on a team like the Giants. That is to say with the pitching staff you guys have and the arms in the minors a bat like Frenchy (were talking potential here) would probably put you guys in a better spot then Cains arm.

Vice versa we have a ton of OF talent coming through (Schafer, Heyward, Gorkys, C. Johnson, Owings) so in our perspective a younger arm with ACE potential would do us better.

Not sure if i made myself clear but it makes sense in my head....lol

robdizzle3
06-29-2008, 04:07 AM
:rolleyes: Thats a great way to rate a pitcher. He has a ****ty record because he plays for the Giants.

Francouer actually reminds me a lot of Cain. They both have a ton of potential and at times are great but they are too inconsistent. But the reason why Cain is worth more than Francouer is because A) he's a pitcher, and as we all know pitchers are more valuable (especially with Cain's potential to be an ace) and B) Francoeur is having a horrible season this year and doesn't have enough value at this point to get a young pitcher such as Cain.

Just because Cain is a pitcher doesnt mean he is more valuable because I know you ould do Pujols or A-Rod for Cain in a heartbeat or any really god hitter for that matter

giantspwn
06-29-2008, 04:12 AM
Sure Frenchy's value has diminished this year bc of his production. But IMO a hitter with the potential like Frenchy would have a larger impact on a team like the Giants. That is to say with the pitching staff you guys have and the arms in the minors a bat like Frenchy (were talking potential here) would probably put you guys in a better spot then Cains arm.

Vice versa we have a ton of OF talent coming through (Schafer, Heyward, Gorkys, C. Johnson, Owings) so in our perspective a younger arm with ACE potential would do us better.

Not sure if i made myself clear but it makes sense in my head....lol

But the Giants don't need more mediocre OF talent, we have John Bowker, Fred Lewis,Nate Shierholtz and Daniel Ortmeier who are all fighting for OF spots that Rowand and Winn are taking. Keep in mind that Bowker and Lewis are both having better years than Francouer and Shierholtz is tearing it up in AAA about to come up.

lincecum=future
06-29-2008, 04:17 AM
Sure Frenchy's value has diminished this year bc of his production. But IMO a hitter with the potential like Frenchy would have a larger impact on a team like the Giants. That is to say with the pitching staff you guys have and the arms in the minors a bat like Frenchy (were talking potential here) would probably put you guys in a better spot then Cains arm.

Vice versa we have a ton of OF talent coming through (Schafer, Heyward, Gorkys, C. Johnson, Owings) so in our perspective a younger arm with ACE potential would do us better.

Not sure if i made myself clear but it makes sense in my head....lol

ha, I got you. But the thing is that we're pretty much set in the OF and I would like to move Randy Winn in order to make room for one of our prospects, Nate Schierholtz.


Just because Cain is a pitcher doesnt mean he is more valuable because I know you ould do Pujols or A-Rod for Cain in a heartbeat or any really god hitter for that matter

Uh yeah of course I would do that. But we are talking about Jeff Francouer who isn't or will never be at A-rod or Pujols level. But like I said pitchers ARE more valuable than hitters are.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 04:19 AM
^Plus Francouer's an OF, every starting OF we have is better than him at the moment. OF's are a dime a dozen compared to starting pitching talent.

tell me whom in your system right now is capable of putting up 40+ 2B, 25-30 HR, 100 RBIs and GG defense.

Frenchy is putting up the worst season he can possibly put up and is still on pace for 40+ 2B, 16 HR, and 81 RBIs. Frenchy cant possible have a worst 2nd half. With one hot week. Frenchy would be at his career average of 25/100.

Everyone was writing off Tex and look where he is now on pace for 36 HR and 121 RBIs and getting better. Anything can happen when you have great players. Once they get hot they can ride it for a long time.

Well lets take a look what your OF are projected to hit:

Fred Lewis 35 2B, 12 HR, 47 RBIs .818 OPS
Aaron Rowand 45 2B, 17 HR, 89 RBIs, .819 OPS
Randy Winn 45 2B, 10 HR, 70 RBIs, .779 OPS

WInn $8.8 Mill, Rowand $8 Mill. Thus you have two guys earning $8 Mill a year and on pace for the same production as a guy we are paying $.460 K. For about $8 Mill less i would take Frenchy over any of your OF.

Poncho_707
06-29-2008, 04:23 AM
I'm a Giants fan. We have a thread that started with Matt Cain's status as a Giant and turned into trading pieces for Jeff Francoeur. I would love to have Francoeur, some Giants fans don't think he is worth our top organzational prospect, 17 year old Angel Villalona. I said I'd trade him for Villalona. (from a Giants perspective, I personally don't think the Braves would do it)

Enjoy this quote I pulled on someone's response in comparing Jeff with Randy Winn...

Originally Posted by Gigantes4Life
I'm guessing you don't understand the part where Francoeur will never even be as good as Randy Winn right?

no way we would trade cain for francouer..ever


I started this thread without the intention of an offer of Matt Cain for Jeff Francoeur. I think we have the pieces to get him without giving up a Cain, Lincecum or Sanchez.

Randy Winn for your playoff run
Nate Schierholtz for your prospect
Jack Taschner for your bullpen

i think shierholtz will be better than ''frenchy''

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 04:37 AM
Just for curiosity sake. Im not to familiar with Schierholtz and hit potential. But what do you project him as a Major Leaguer. I was reading John Sickel's rating, whom is a very respected analyst, and he rated him as a B-.

Just wondering what kind of ceiling you think he has.

lincecum=future
06-29-2008, 05:12 AM
Just for curiosity sake. Im not to familiar with Schierholtz and hit potential. But what do you project him as a Major Leaguer. I was reading John Sickel's rating, whom is a very respected analyst, and he rated him as a B-.

Just wondering what kind of ceiling you think he has.

Schierholtz is our only hitting prospect that is MLB ready right now. He should be a solid player for us for years to come. He hits for a good average and is developing power not to mention some pretty good speed and a good arm in the outfield. Not exactly the flashiest player but I can see him hitting .280 with 15-20 homers (potential to hit more) and become a nice #3 hitter for us.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 05:26 AM
^^^ not sure that kind of potential would suffice as a #3 but hey. I still think the Giants will go for another bat to complement Rowand.

robdizzle3
06-29-2008, 05:46 AM
^ They have to because if Rowand is the teams most dangerous hitter then there is a problem

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:23 AM
This is why I hat people who just look at a players stats and think they know every thing about that player. Im talking the starts where he is on. I take it you have never watched Matt Cain pitch. He has proven he can flat dominate, its the consitency with comand he lacks. Once he learns consitncy, suck for the rest of MLB. Matt Cain has been great, just not a hole season. Hes still learning. He wont reach full potential for anoter 2 or 3 years.

BFD. Many pitchers can put together 5-7 very good or great starts in a season. If he can't do it 30+ times, then the most important thing is consistency. If he isn't consistent, then he's not CURRENTLY great or anywhere close. IF he can learn consistency, then the question is what will be consistently do? Learning consistency doesn't mean he will learn how to deliver a great game every time. He could end up just giving you 30 above-average games. And next time, if you're going to cherry-pick and only talk about when he's good, mention that. We're not mindreaders.

Here's the original quote: "Matt Cain has already proven he can flat out dominate, can you say that about Francoeur?" That implies you mean overall, such as for a season. But since we now know you mean just when Cain is on, that makes you look dumb. Francoeur has 1.5 seasons to his credit that show he can be a top-of-the-line player and another season that shows how much power he can produce. He is also only 1 year older than Cain, so both are in their pre-prime years.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:26 AM
Uh yeah of course I would do that. But we are talking about Jeff Francouer who isn't or will never be at A-rod or Pujols level.

Matt Cain isn't exactly Greg Maddux or Roger Clemens. Right now, he's not even Steve Avery. One thing is for sure, Francoeur has produced more than Cain has so far.

fatpat1116
06-29-2008, 12:00 PM
Francouer will be a solid starting outfielder in the league and will hit 15-25 HRs each year, but Matt Cain has Cy Young Potential and has the ability to throw a No-Hitter every time he goes out. He is one of the cornerstones of our future, so we would need a top prospect (i.e. Heyward or Schafer). Francouer will be solid but not a superstar, so he wouldn't be enough.

The one thing i have noticed every time i read any giants fans posts on here or talk to a giants fan in real life is that they are more in love with there young talent more than any other fans. All you ever hear is cain lincecum sanchez it gets soooo old, your in last place for a reason and 3 young pitchers arent gonna pull you out of the cellar maybe the future is bright but probably not every team has young prospects they like i guess the giants just forgot what young talent looked like considering they havent produced a solid player b4 these guys in god knows how long maybe its too many years of having rich aurilia and bengie molina and rany wynn and ray durham maybe its the obscene contracts given to rowand and zito i guess everyone needs a reason to be optimistic about there team but talk about takin it to th next level god forbid if cain lincecum and sanchez dont win a total of 10 cy youngs i dont know what giants fans might do

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 12:20 PM
BK, I move to close this thread. What a totally ridiculous discussion.

To begin with, neither the Braves nor the Giants are looking to move either Cain or Francoeur, respectively. Moreover, neither the Braves fans nor the Giants fans are offering any kind of backup for their opinions...they're simply stating that their own player is better and trying to insult the opposing posters.

As an aside, all the Braves fans seem to be forgetting that young talented pitching is inherently more valuable than young talented hitting (because stud pitchers are more difficult to find than stud hitters...TINSTAAPP).

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 12:42 PM
^^^ not sure that kind of potential would suffice as a #3 but hey. I still think the Giants will go for another bat to complement Rowand.

The Giants arnt trading a young pitcher to get a young hitter. Cain and Lincecum WILL NOT BE TRADED! They will trade Randy Winn, Ray Durham, and possibly Bengie Molina for young hitting.

Btw, I know you never inpiled trading Cain or Lincecum in your post im just trying to clear things up because it seems like most of you think the only thing tradable on the Giants is Matt Cain.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 12:43 PM
BK, I move to close this thread. What a totally ridiculous discussion.

To begin with, neither the Braves nor the Giants are looking to move either Cain or Francoeur, respectively. Moreover, neither the Braves fans nor the Giants fans are offering any kind of backup for their opinions...they're simply stating that their own player is better and trying to insult the opposing posters.

As an aside, all the Braves fans seem to be forgetting that young talented pitching is inherently more valuable than young talented hitting (because stud pitchers are more difficult to find than stud hitters...TINSTAAPP).

What difference does it make if this thread is closed or opened? If you dont like it just dont read it.

tomno00
06-29-2008, 01:10 PM
beaking news.... the giants have just traded matt cain and tim lincecum to the nats for willie harris and cash considerations

robdizzle3
06-29-2008, 01:31 PM
beaking news.... the giants have just traded matt cain and tim lincecum to the nats for willie harris and cash considerations

Hahaha that is very funny right there.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 01:41 PM
BK, I move to close this thread. What a totally ridiculous discussion.

To begin with, neither the Braves nor the Giants are looking to move either Cain or Francoeur, respectively. Moreover, neither the Braves fans nor the Giants fans are offering any kind of backup for their opinions...they're simply stating that their own player is better and trying to insult the opposing posters.

As an aside, all the Braves fans seem to be forgetting that young talented pitching is inherently more valuable than young talented hitting (because stud pitchers are more difficult to find than stud hitters...TINSTAAPP).

thats what it is discussion. If you dont like it dont read it.

robdizzle3
06-29-2008, 01:54 PM
This is just like Around the Horn where this is the forum for competitive banter and this is all in fun

rtgthree
06-29-2008, 01:56 PM
What difference does it make if this thread is closed or opened? If you dont like it just dont read it.


thats what it is discussion. If you dont like it dont read it.

It's not that I mind reading it...it's just I just feel pity for everyone that's actually trying to turn this into a legitimate discussion, when really there's nothing to discuss.

Plus if we let all these threads keep going, why not have a thread for every stupid trade idea we can come up with? Why not a "Trade idea: Giants trade for Mark Teixeira" and a "Trade idea: Giants trade for Jorge Campillo"? Maybe a "Trade idea: Giants trade for Scott Thorman" thread...the discussion would probably be just as good.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 02:14 PM
^^^If the Giants were close to .500 i can see the Mark Teixeira one. Either way its your choice to read. You got a taste if you dont like it dont read it. Ive been learning a ton about the Giants system and Cain from just this thread.

rarryronds
06-29-2008, 03:25 PM
Just for curiosity sake. Im not to familiar with Schierholtz and hit potential. But what do you project him as a Major Leaguer. I was reading John Sickel's rating, whom is a very respected analyst, and he rated him as a B-.

Just wondering what kind of ceiling you think he has.

Nate Schierholtz is 24 years old. He recieved 100 AB's last year platooning. He batted .300, 5 2B's, 3B's, no home runs and 10 RBI's. He walked twice. He's big, 6'2" 217#'s and have line drive (doubles) projectability. He looked stiff in the outfield, seems to have an average at best glove and an above average arm. You could see last year that he was strong but never put the ball over the fence. The only thing holding him from starting in right field is Randy Winn. The Giants don't want to platoon him again, he's done everything he needs to do in the minors, short of putting up Dallas MacPherson home runs totals.

Everyone in the Giants forum has their own opinions, I seem to have a negative one toward out position players. I believe he has the tools to put up #'s similar to Randy Winn. I think if he received 500 AB's, right now, he put up numbers like this (with our lineup)

.270-.290
25-30 2B's
8-12 HR's
50-65 RBI's
10+ SB's
Below Average Awareness
Average Glove
Above Average Arm

BravesFan4Life
06-29-2008, 03:28 PM
Actually, their was a big story out of ST that said the Giants were interested in Scott Thorman.. Just thought I would throw that out there..:)

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 04:05 PM
^^^Scotty inst hurting his case in his latest month.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 04:09 PM
I'm willing to just give Francoeur to San Fran. No compensation necessary.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 04:16 PM
^^and im so glad your no where near our front office.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 04:17 PM
^^and im so glad your no where near our front office.

So you don't want the Braves to improve, I take it?

rarryronds
06-29-2008, 04:28 PM
I'm willing to just give Francoeur to San Fran. No compensation necessary.

Is he really that much of a wated plate appearance? I serioulsy looked at his '06 and '07 statistics and thought with the defense he plays, he was one of the better young OF's in baseball. I seriously learned so much over the last 24 hours. How the hell did he drive in 100 runs twice at such a young age? His stats show him as a slightly better hitter in the second half. It shows him as a good hitter with RISP and one and two out with RISP. I'm talking over .300. This is weird. What does he need to do?

nps6724
06-29-2008, 04:33 PM
Is he really that much of a wated plate appearance? I serioulsy looked at his '06 and '07 statistics and thought with the defense he plays, he was one of the better young OF's in baseball. I seriously learned so much over the last 24 hours. How the hell did he drive in 100 runs twice at such a young age? His stats show him as a slightly better hitter in the second half. It shows him as a good hitter with RISP and one and two out with RISP. I'm talking over .300. This is weird. What does he need to do?

Last year he learned how to hit to RF. This year he forgot everything. He's hitting .240 and he is in the top 5 in the MAJORS in number of AB with runners on base and he is 1st or 2nd on the Braves in AB with RISP and he continually ****s up. Bases loaded, he sucks. Runner on 3rd less than 2 outs, he sucks. Need to move a runner over, he sucks. It's like he doesn't know how to play baseball. Today, for example, we're down 1-0 in the 6th. Runner on 2nd after a double with no outs. Outside pitch, what does he do? Roll it over to 3B. The pitcher GAVE him an easy opportunity to move the runner and he can't take it. He is used to being the HERO who wins the game, so he tries to be the HERO every time and he can't do it. He has to be the dumbest hitter in the majors, bar none.

braves790
06-29-2008, 04:42 PM
Well rarryronds all Francoeur needs to do is to get the **** out of Atlanta and I mean in a hurry!!! Besides that he doesn't need to do anything!

RandyRocks77
06-29-2008, 04:56 PM
Well rarryronds all Francoeur needs to do is to get the **** out of Atlanta and I mean in a hurry!!! Besides that he doesn't need to do anything!
Wow that was a nonsense post... I bet you wasnt thinking that when he hit 29 Hrs or or .293 avg.. in less than 3 seasons of work.. he has put up over 300 RBIs... he's having a bad year.. it happens!... how many times have you watched a game and the Runner on 3rd didn't try to run Home B/C Frenchy had the Ball in his Glove! remember he is ONLY 24... he has a BIG upside

rarryronds
06-29-2008, 04:58 PM
Sad. Would you trade Randy Winn straight up for him.

RandyRocks77
06-29-2008, 05:01 PM
Nope not a Chance..IMO the Braves will go after a LF!

natebrown911
06-29-2008, 05:36 PM
No one can say Matt Cain is a Cy Young pictcher? His stats for a career our Wins 26/ Losses 35. Era 3.87. If thats Cy Young why didn't Steve Avery get some love??? or why not Terry Mulholland? Matt Cain will never ever never ever get in consideration for the Cy Young with Peavy, Webb, Haren, Santana, Hamels, Sheet, Zambrano, Lincecum, Maine and Oswalt. Thats just tier 1. Matt Cain will win the Cy Young only if all these guys die on the plane ride to the All-Star game and then they might re-name it the "With Apologies to the Fans" award.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 05:42 PM
^^^here we go again. Maine has no business with that category of pitchers.

Cain has the potential to be just as good if not better then any of those aswell. Dont forget that Cain is only 23

natebrown911
06-29-2008, 06:32 PM
Well neither does Matt Cain, Caine is there to be a fluffer for Tim Lincecum. This year Frenchy and Cain suck, Cain the last 2 years is 11/22 with a 4.04 ERA and Frenchy has 27 hrs, 146 rbis with a .266 BA. over that same span.. Who is better? i would take the everyday player rather then the sub-par pitcher? i would stick with what they got because Cain might suck but even a pitcher of his caliber will get 100 million.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 06:50 PM
^^^dude your evaluation of talent is severely tainted.

Id much rather have a 23 year old pitcher with a 4.4 ERA 96 K in 105 IP then a 24 year odl hitter hitting .241 with a .683 OPS.

Both have potential but havent realized it YET....bottom line.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 07:09 PM
^^^here we go again. Maine has no business with that category of pitchers.

Cain has the potential to be just as good if not better then any of those aswell. Dont forget that Cain is only 23

Wow, I thought you were bull ****ing when you said you learned a lot about Cain in the last 24 hours, but you wenrt. Im glad we had that debate/argument.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 07:15 PM
Wow, I thought you were bull ****ing when you said you learned a lot about Cain in the last 24 hours, but you wenrt. Im glad we had that debate/argument.

lol...when i think im right ill argue my points. But here there was nothing to argue about...

Hopefully when i go see the Giants vs Braves in Aug. i can see either LIncecum or Cain vs Jair Jurjjens.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 07:31 PM
No one can say Matt Cain is a Cy Young pictcher? His stats for a career our Wins 26/ Losses 35. Era 3.87. If thats Cy Young why didn't Steve Avery get some love??? or why not Terry Mulholland? Matt Cain will never ever never ever get in consideration for the Cy Young with Peavy, Webb, Haren, Santana, Hamels, Sheet, Zambrano, Lincecum, Maine and Oswalt. Thats just tier 1. Matt Cain will win the Cy Young only if all these guys die on the plane ride to the All-Star game and then they might re-name it the "With Apologies to the Fans" award.

Hes not a Cy Young pitcher yet, but he has the potential to become one. If we go by your way of evaluating young pitching and judge their future potential by stats alone then Greg Maddux would be terrible, Clemens would suck, and Randy Johnson would be flat out herendous. Why do I say this? Because in Greg Maddux's first three seasons his ERA was 4.23, Clemens ERA in his first two years was 3.87, and in Randy Johnsons first 5 season his ERA was also 4.23.

You know what the difference between Matt Cain to Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, and Greg Maddux when their carrers began? Matt Cain was 2 to 5 years younger when he debueted than all of them. Matt Cain is putting up similar #'s to 3 of the greatest pitchers of all time at a younger age. Put it together for your self.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 07:32 PM
lol...when i think im right ill argue my points. But here there was nothing to argue about...

Hopefully when i go see the Giants vs Braves in Aug. i can see either LIncecum or Cain vs Jair Jurjjens.

Whos that? Scouting reprot please. :D

nps6724
06-29-2008, 07:44 PM
Hes not a Cy Young pitcher yet, but he has the potential to become one. If we go by your way of evaluating young pitching and judge their future potential by stats alone then Greg Maddux would be terrible, Clemens would suck, and Randy Johnson would be flat out herendous. Why do I say this? Because in Greg Maddux's first three seasons his ERA was 4.23, Clemens ERA in his first two years was 3.87, and in Randy Johnsons first 5 season his ERA was also 4.23.

You know what the difference between Matt Cain to Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, and Greg Maddux when their carrers began? Matt Cain was 2 to 5 years younger when he debueted than all of them. Matt Cain is putting up similar #'s to 3 of the greatest pitchers of all time at a younger age. Put it together for your self.

You know who else struggled early in their career with 4+ ERAs? Guys who DIDN'T turn into Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, and the like. Many of those same guys had the talent to succeed, but didn't. People always say, "Just wait, they'll get there," and they didn't. Tons of players have the potential to turn into superstars and don't.

Let me put it this way: Cain's overall performances through 87 starts has done more to prove he is NOT one of the next top pitchers than that he is. He's pitched some great games, but he's also pitched many terrible games and many average games. You can find many young pitchers with those credentials and with the potential. He lost 16 games last season and he's definitely a better pitcher than that, but he gave up 4+ in 8 of those losses, so he has definitely earned some of those losses. In '06 he lost 12 and gave up 4+ in 10 of those. He's either great or bad with very little middle ground. It's pointless to play the Potential Game because this game is littered with the dead careers of potential-laden prospects who had everything needed to make it but didn't. It's up to Cain to realize it.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 08:06 PM
You know who else struggled early in their career with 4+ ERAs? Guys who DIDN'T turn into Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, and the like. Many of those same guys had the talent to succeed, but didn't. People always say, "Just wait, they'll get there," and they didn't. Tons of players have the potential to turn into superstars and don't.

Let me put it this way: Cain's overall performances through 87 starts has done more to prove he is NOT one of the next top pitchers than that he is. He's pitched some great games, but he's also pitched many terrible games and many average games. You can find many young pitchers with those credentials and with the potential. He lost 16 games last season and he's definitely a better pitcher than that, but he gave up 4+ in 8 of those losses, so he has definitely earned some of those losses. In '06 he lost 12 and gave up 4+ in 10 of those. He's either great or bad with very little middle ground. It's pointless to play the Potential Game because this game is littered with the dead careers of potential-laden prospects who had everything needed to make it but didn't. It's up to Cain to realize it.

My point is you cant evalaute young pitchers by stats alone. Matt Cain has the ace mentality, he has the tools to dominate wich he has proven. I dont know how else to say it but, Matt Cain is a future superstar. The tools are all there, the menatlity is there, just wait for him to put it all together.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 08:07 PM
My point is you cant evalaute young pitchers by stats alone. Matt Cain has the ace mentality, he has the tools to dominate wich he has proven. I dont know how else to say it but, Matt Cain is a future superstar. The tools are all there, the menatlity is there, just wait for him to put it all together.

Until he does, BFD. He has the same things a TON of guys have had who also failed. Potential does not equal results.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 08:11 PM
Whos that? Scouting reprot please. :D

For the heck of it...hope you joking though...

JJ 8-3 98 IP 2.94 ERA....most importantly he a ROOKIE!!!!!!!!

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 08:12 PM
Until he does, BFD. He has the same things a TON of guys have had who also failed. Potential does not equal results.

Its not only the potential on his pitching that woos people. He also has the mind set of a ace, team leader, and All Star. And btw, he has. Just not for a complete season, yet. He is learning consitnacy. Its really hard to understand this unless you watch to Matt Cain on a regualr basis.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 08:14 PM
All i now is that i would be very very happy to have Matt Cain in my rotation!!!!!

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 08:20 PM
All i now is that i would be very very happy to have Matt Cain in my rotation!!!!!

So would I! Oh wait, I already do! Booh Yah!

nps6724
06-29-2008, 08:29 PM
Its not only the potential on his pitching that woos people. He also has the mind set of a ace, team leader, and All Star. And btw, he has. Just not for a complete season, yet. He is learning consitnacy. Its really hard to understand this unless you watch to Matt Cain on a regualr basis.

No, it's easy to understand. You're a fan very happy about the future and you're overstating how PRESENTLY good the kid is. Pitching great 10 times and getting roughed up 10 times just shows you CAN pitch well, you just can't do it all the time. That's what separates great pitchers and average pitchers. You can spout off how he has the mentality and yada yada yada, but until he can go out and give you a good or great outing every 5 days, he's no different than the vast amount of dead arms who also had everything they needed and couldn't get over the hump.

Just look through the many young Braves pitchers that could've been great but weren't. Kyle Davies, Horacio Ramirez, Jason Marquis, Jason Schmidt, and Chuck James are all guys who showed flashes but also showed blemishes. None of them could get over the hump and develop consistency. What exactly has Cain done to make anyone think he will develop consistency, besides blind faith? In June, he went 5, 6.1, 7, 8, and 5 and gave up 5, 1, 3, 4, and 4 runs. His starts this year have gone this way: good, bad, okay, terrible, very good, good, good, bad, good, bad, okay, good, bad, good, okay, okay, and bad. He had 1 stretch of 3 good starts (April 23, 28, and May 3) and since then it's been a completely mixed bag. Or a box of chocolates, as Forrest Gump would say, because you never know which Cain you're gonna get.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 08:30 PM
All i now is that i would be very very happy to have Matt Cain in my rotation!!!!!

I'd rather have JJ and Jo-Jo than Cain, personally.

hammerinhank
06-29-2008, 08:38 PM
JJ>Rusty Kuntz>Cain

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 08:43 PM
No, it's easy to understand. You're a fan very happy about the future and you're overstating how PRESENTLY good the kid is. Pitching great 10 times and getting roughed up 10 times just shows you CAN pitch well, you just can't do it all the time. That's what separates great pitchers and average pitchers. You can spout off how he has the mentality and yada yada yada, but until he can go out and give you a good or great outing every 5 days, he's no different than the vast amount of dead arms who also had everything they needed and couldn't get over the hump.

Just look through the many young Braves pitchers that could've been great but weren't. Kyle Davies, Horacio Ramirez, Jason Marquis, Jason Schmidt, and Chuck James are all guys who showed flashes but also showed blemishes. None of them could get over the hump and develop consistency. What exactly has Cain done to make anyone think he will develop consistency, besides blind faith? In June, he went 5, 6.1, 7, 8, and 5 and gave up 5, 1, 3, 4, and 4 runs. His starts this year have gone this way: good, bad, okay, terrible, very good, good, good, bad, good, bad, okay, good, bad, good, okay, okay, and bad. He had 1 stretch of 3 good starts (April 23, 28, and May 3) and since then it's been a completely mixed bag. Or a box of chocolates, as Forrest Gump would say, because you never know which Cain you're gonna get.

I know Cain isnt pitching well right now, btw. It really is hard to explain Matt Cain's problem and how him and Dave Righetti (Giants pitching coach). I see your point in the consitancy thing and all the pitchers who couldnt find it and now they suck, but the differnce between Cain and them is that Cain has shown he can be consistant in the past, and again the ace mentality. A lot of pitchers couldnt make it in the MLB because they couldnt bounce back from losses.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 08:46 PM
JJ>Rusty Kuntz>Cain

Please dont make me start this whole thing over again. Because JJ is not > than Cain.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 08:56 PM
Please dont make me start this whole thing over again. Because JJ is not > than Cain.

Oh so Cain has gone near 30 innnings without giving up an Earned Run. Doubt it. dont get me wrong would like to have Cain. But JJ is right now and will be come next year Better than Cain. Sorry man. JJ has Ace written on him Cain has #3 written on him.
By the way I would rather have JoJo Reyes than Cain.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 08:59 PM
Oh so Cain has gone near 30 innnings without giving up an Earned Run. Doubt it. dont get me wrong would like to have Cain. But JJ is right now and will be come next year Better than Cain. Sorry man. JJ has Ace written on him Cain has #3 written on him.
By the way I would rather have JoJo Reyes than Cain.

Another typical fan who is to ignorant to listen a understand what ive said earlier in this thread. OMFG, JJ is only like 3 months younger than Cain, and Cain has proven SO much more than JJ. You keep JJ, and ill keep Cain and we will se who has the better pitcher in 5 years. It will be the Giants btw.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 09:06 PM
Please dont make me start this whole thing over again. Because JJ is not > than Cain.

Oh, this I gotta hear. Compare JJ to Cain at the same age. JJ has 16 starts this season, so let's look at Cain's first 16 from last year:

JJ - 98 IP, 92 H, 38 R, 32 ER, 5 HR, 37 BB, 69 SO, 2.94 ERA, 1.32 WHIP
Cain: 104 IP, 85 H, 41 R, 39 ER, 7 HR, 50 BB, 76 SO, 3.35 ERA, 1.30 WHIP

Very similar, yet I would take JJ if given the choice. Cain also already had a full season of experience when he was 22 which JJ didn't. So let's look at Cain's first 16 starts from '06, his first full year:

Cain: 89.1 IP, 80 H, 56 R, 52 ER, 10 HR, 47 BB, 80 SO, 5.20 ERA, 1.42 WHIP

Again, similar but JJ comes out on top. Cain is the superior SO guy, but JJ has better control (fewer BB, fewer HR). JJ, so far, has outpitched Cain. And Cain pitches in a much more pitcher-friendly park.

So besides "potential", how exactly is Cain the better pitcher?

nps6724
06-29-2008, 09:07 PM
Another typical fan who is to ignorant to listen a understand what ive said earlier in this thread. OMFG, JJ is only like 3 months younger than Cain, and Cain has proven SO much more than JJ.

What has he proven? That he can Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde it up?

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 09:08 PM
Preformed and done more because he had the oppurtunity. Dont get me wrong he will be good. But looking at this year. Who is better. Again has Cain EVER gone near 30innings w/O giving up an earned run. Has he? NO so JJ already has done something Cain hasn't. JJ=ACE 8-3 under 3 ERA. What is Cain's stats this year.
Cain does have potential. But maybe just maybe Morton our #4 pitcher this year will be better than him. It could happen.

BRAVE KID
06-29-2008, 09:12 PM
I getting tired of this hyping up on cain potential yadda yadda yadda, tell you what take cain and i'll take jo-jo, JJ and morton, good day:cool:

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 09:29 PM
Preformed and done more because he had the oppurtunity. Dont get me wrong he will be good. But looking at this year. Who is better. Again has Cain EVER gone near 30innings w/O giving up an earned run. Has he? NO so JJ already has done something Cain hasn't. JJ=ACE 8-3 under 3 ERA. What is Cain's stats this year.
Cain does have potential. But maybe just maybe Morton our #4 pitcher this year will be better than him. It could happen.

Cain has already thrown the second most one hitters through 6 innings of all time. Check mate, that beats the **** of 30 inning with out giving up an ER. Oh btw, in 2006 from August 22nd to to September 12th, when he was 21 years old, Matt Cain went 42 innings and only gave up 1 earned run, and with in that streak he had a span were he went 30 1/2 innings and gave up 0 earned runs. You want to keep going? I can keep going all day long. Feel free to feel ********.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 09:36 PM
Yea sure Cain=FUTURE TRADE, or the NEXT MILLWOOD..

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 09:36 PM
Yea sure Cain=FUTURE TRADE, or the NEXT MILLWOOD..

What?! :confused:

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 09:37 PM
Pointless conversation. JJ has been better this season. Cain is having a rough start to the season. Based on stuff and potential anyone would be a fool to take JJ over Cain.

But JJ is great young talent that should anchor our rotation for years to come. And im not complaining about having him one bit.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 09:38 PM
Cain has already thrown the second most one hitters through 6 innings of all time.

1-hitters through 6? THAT'S what you hang your hat on? It's good, but whoop-de-doo. In 87 career starts, 27 times he's given up 4+. Unless he has 27 1-hitters and shutouts through 6, check mate my ***. All that shows is he's either great or crap with little in between. BTW, no way he has the most 1-hitters through 6 of all-time simply because that wasn't and couldn't be tracked for AT LEAST the first 60-70 years of baseball. You can have his 1-hitters through 6 and his 27 starts of 4+ runs, I'll take JJ's consistency, lower ERA, fewer HR, and fewer walks.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 09:40 PM
Yea sure Cain=FUTURE TRADE, or the NEXT MILLWOOD..

Can you provide correlation or any evidence??? or are you just pulling this out of your ***

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 09:42 PM
1-hitters through 6? THAT'S what you hang your hat on? It's good, but whoop-de-doo. In 87 career starts, 27 times he's given up 4+. Unless he has 27 1-hitters and shutouts through 6, check mate my ***. All that shows is he's either great or crap with little in between. BTW, no way he has the most 1-hitters through 6 of all-time simply because that wasn't and couldn't be tracked for AT LEAST the first 60-70 years of baseball. You can have his 1-hitters through 6 and his 27 starts of 4+ runs, I'll take JJ's consistency, lower ERA, fewer HR, and fewer walks.

How can you say JJ is consitent when hes pitched 1/2 a season. You can tell some of the smartest baseball minds that they cant keep track of 1 hitters through 6 innings, because obviously they have because iv seen and heard Cain is second on the all time list more than once.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 09:43 PM
Just stating that If the Giants dont turn it around, he will be traded because of his potential. Some team will give up prospects for him, and the Giants will take them.He has still in 4yrs never had a winning season with and ERA below 4. Lifetime he is 26-35 with a 3.86 era.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 09:48 PM
Can you provide correlation or any evidence??? or are you just pulling this out of your ***

What did his post mean. You understood it, explaing it to me.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 09:49 PM
Just stating that If the Giants dont turn it around, he will be traded because of his potential. Some team will give up prospects for him, and the Giants will take them.He has still in 4yrs never had a winning season with and ERA below 4. Lifetime he is 26-35 with a 3.86 era.

The Giants are rebuilding. What sense would it make for them to trade a 23 year old pitcher who already has 3 years of experince under his belt. Hes a conerstone of the future Giants. And believe me the Giants will soon turn it around.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 09:55 PM
Pointless conversation. JJ has been better this season. Cain is having a rough start to the season. Based on stuff and potential anyone would be a fool to take JJ over Cain.

How so? All of Cain's potential and stuff hasn't led to much. I'll take production over potential everyday. Cain could just as easily never materialize as he could become a good starter. JJ already IS a good starter and has what Cain doesn't: consistency. A lot of fans have jumped on Jo-Jo for being inconsistent and Cain has the exact same problems as Jo-Jo and Jo-Jo isn't anywhere near Cain's level in talent or hype. 31% of Cain's starts, he's given up 4+; Jo-Jo has done so in 48% of his career starts, but only 31% this year.

Cain is Francoeur minus those 2 years Jeff performed well. Call me when he lives up to even 50% of his hype. Cain's career ERA basically means he averages 7 IP 3 ER per start. That's good but nowhere near the level CAIN=FUTURE is trying to place him on.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 09:56 PM
How can you say JJ is consitent when hes pitched 1/2 a season. You can tell some of the smartest baseball minds that they cant keep track of 1 hitters through 6 innings, because obviously they have because iv seen and heard Cain is second on the all time list more than once.

Obviously, he's been consistent through that half-season. Not that difficult to figure out. They didn't keep game logs through the first 60-70 years of baseball, bud. So how could he be definitely be #2 all-time in that goofy stat when all those years are without logs? I don't care what baseball minds you employ, they do not possess a time machine that I am aware of.

BTW, does that mean Cain completed 6 innings only allowing 1 hit and continued pitching, or he left the game after 6 IP and 1 H? If it's the former, that's a pretty useless stat. That basically means he could pitch 6 innings, give up 1 hit, pitch the 7th and give up 3 runs, and it still would go down as a 1-hitter through 6.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 09:57 PM
Just stating that If the Giants dont turn it around, he will be traded because of his potential. Some team will give up prospects for him, and the Giants will take them.He has still in 4yrs never had a winning season with and ERA below 4. Lifetime he is 26-35 with a 3.86 era.

Just throwing in out there your LIFETIME is for a 23 year old.....Turn what around, i dont think the Giants are expected to win at the moment.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 10:00 PM
Obviously, he's been consistent through that half-season. Not that difficult to figure out. They didn't keep game logs through the first 60-70 years of baseball, bud. So how could he be definitely be #2 all-time in that goofy stat when all those years are without logs? I don't care what baseball minds you employ, they do not possess a time machine that I am aware of.

BTW, does that mean Cain completed 6 innings only allowing 1 hit and continued pitching, or he left the game after 6 IP and 1 H? If it's the former, that's a pretty useless stat. That basically means he could pitch 6 innings, give up 1 hit, pitch the 7th and give up 3 runs, and it still would go down as a 1-hitter through 6.

The stat is go 6 or more innings and give up only one hit, no more than that. And people have been recording every MLB game for quite some time now.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 10:01 PM
Just throwing in out there your LIFETIME is for a 23 year old.....Turn what around, i dont think the Giants are expected to win at the moment.

Very true.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:03 PM
How so? All of Cain's potential and stuff hasn't led to much. I'll take production over potential everyday. Cain could just as easily never materialize as he could become a good starter. JJ already IS a good starter and has what Cain doesn't: consistency. A lot of fans have jumped on Jo-Jo for being inconsistent and Cain has the exact same problems as Jo-Jo and Jo-Jo isn't anywhere near Cain's level in talent or hype. 31% of Cain's starts, he's given up 4+; Jo-Jo has done so in 48% of his career starts, but only 31% this year.

Cain is Francoeur minus those 2 years Jeff performed well. Call me when he lives up to even 50% of his hype. Cain's career ERA basically means he averages 7 IP 3 ER per start. That's good but nowhere near the level CAIN=FUTURE is trying to place him on.

LIke i said "based on stuff and potential"......read before you write, trigger happy.......I never said anything about production.

JoJo has 21 Career Starts and Cain has 87 career Starts........sort of not fair to compare the two and their consistency. Lets see where JoJO is at or around at least 70 Starts.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:06 PM
What did his post mean. You understood it, explaing it to me.

Naw im asking whom ever said "Cain is the next Millwood" to please explain why they think so.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:06 PM
LIke i said "based on stuff and potential"......read before you write, trigger happy.......I never said anything about production.


I'm just trying to figure out how you personally judge "stuff" and "potential". Everything thus far has shown JJ to be better overall. Are you watching many of Cain's starts? Basing it off what scouts say? I would think a guy with such great "stuff" and "potential" would do better than he has in a pitcher's park. Or is "stuff" and "potential" just a way to say he's better without proof?

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:09 PM
Just throwing in out there your LIFETIME is for a 23 year old.....

Age has to be the most important thing to you because every single young guy who struggles, you use age as a crutch. Does experience mean nothing? Cain has 87 career starts already. To compare, Tim Hudson only has 299. Cain is already 30% of the way to Huddy's total. So wouldn't experience be a better judge than just age? How many young players get to the majors doing what they've always done, struggle, and change? Most continue doing what got them to the dance and have the same problems when they're 30 they had when they were 20.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:13 PM
The stat is go 6 or more innings and give up only one hit, no more than that. And people have been recording every MLB game for quite some time now.

Have they logged games from the '30s? If not, the whole stat is bunk. Even still, it's very good that Cain has done that. But he also has 27 starts of 4+ runs. Apparently Cain has 7 1-hitters through 6 IP in his career, but he also has 23 walks in those starts. So he still allowed 4 baserunners per game. Again, still very good, but shows he wasn't quite as masterful as the stat suggests. I'll still take the fewer runs every time.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 10:15 PM
We are argueing the same thing
You guys says he has potential
we are saying he is not preforming well RIGHT NOW!!!
2nd you guys dont think you will trade away Cain (who is your guys #3 SP and not preforming well) for some hitting prospects. I am sure you guys will.
3rd the Millwood comparison is b/c I think Like Millwood, Cain will have a couple great years than spend the rest of the time near .500 or below with a 3.5 to 4.5 era. Lets get something straight
Lincecum,Sanchez=Future with or without Cain. Honestly I think if you keep him you guys will have a good rotation, much like us with JJ,JoJo,and Morton. Few years it could end up your top 3 vs our top 3. Lincecum is the best among all of them.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 10:17 PM
We are argueing the same thing
You guys says he has potential
we are saying he is not preforming well RIGHT NOW!!!
2nd you guys dont think you will trade away Cain (who is your guys #3 SP and not preforming well) for some hitting prospects. I am sure you guys will.
3rd the Millwood comparison is b/c I think Like Millwood, Cain will have a couple great years than spend the rest of the time near .500 or below with a 3.5 to 4.5 era. Lets get something straight
Lincecum,Sanchez=Future with or without Cain. Honestly I think if you keep him you guys will have a good rotation, much like us with JJ,JoJo,and Morton. Few years it could end up your top 3 vs our top 3. Lincecum is the best among all of them.

Just to clrear it up Matt Cain 5x the pitcher Jonathan Sanchez will be when they both finsh their development. Also, imo, Matt Cain will become a better pitcher than Tim Lincecum. Also, the Giants WILL NEVER, and I say again NEVER trade Matt Cain. We a lot of other trading chips that we will use.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:20 PM
Just to clrear it up Matt Cain 5x the pitcher Jonathan Sanchez will be when they both finsh their development. Also, imo, Matt Cain will become a better pitcher than Tim Lincecum.

For your sake I hope you don't run into the same problem we Braves fans did with Andruw Jones. "Oh, when he finishes developing he'll be a monster." "When he reaches his prime, you'll see." That kept coming up year after year until you realize he's 30 with bum knees hitting .220. I just wouldn't get too excited about a "Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde" player because it'll just drive you nuts. It's best to just wait until the player decides which he is, Jekyll or Hyde.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:23 PM
Age has to be the most important thing to you because every single young guy who struggles, you use age as a crutch. Does experience mean nothing? Cain has 87 career starts already. To compare, Tim Hudson only has 299. Cain is already 30% of the way to Huddy's total. So wouldn't experience be a better judge than just age? How many young players get to the majors doing what they've always done, struggle, and change? Most continue doing what got them to the dance and have the same problems when they're 30 they had when they were 20.

i believe in development. With the advancement in baseball its hard for players to be ready when they are 20 or 21. In the case of Cain or Frenchy they were rushed bc of the need for that production. Hence, they had to learn in the fly. Their natural talents have given them early success but at one point they are going to struggle. Its really tough for these players to face adversity when they were brought up so early.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 10:28 PM
I would agree. Cain does have development left as does Francoeour. For your sake I hope Cain works out, but I am telling you now. Cain will never equel Lincecum. You are telling me you would rather,if you HAD to, trade lincecum than Cain. Yuo would rather have Cain than Lincecum to man your rotation. If that is the case we will give you Francoeur,WHO has plenty of potential, for lincecum who is thriving now.

nps6724
06-29-2008, 10:38 PM
i believe in development. With the advancement in baseball its hard for players to be ready when they are 20 or 21. In the case of Cain or Frenchy they were rushed bc of the need for that production. Hence, they had to learn in the fly. Their natural talents have given them early success but at one point they are going to struggle. Its really tough for these players to face adversity when they were brought up so early.

It's also much harder for guys like Cain and Francoeur to change in the big leagues for the very fact they were rushed. Many players like them don't ever recover or reach the levels of their early success. It's hard to learn everyday when you're counted on to produce. Most guys like Cain and Jeff who turn into stars were ready from day one and didn't have a down season in their developmental years (21-25). The ones who do struggle during those years usually have good careers but don't become the studs they looked like at the beginning. I guess that's why I'm not nearly as optimistic as you are.

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 10:48 PM
Most Braves fan say Francoeour has potential but Heyward=Future in RF for Atlanta.

jmtapia
06-29-2008, 10:59 PM
I would agree. Cain does have development left as does Francoeour. For your sake I hope Cain works out, but I am telling you now. Cain will never equel Lincecum. You are telling me you would rather,if you HAD to, trade lincecum than Cain. Yuo would rather have Cain than Lincecum to man your rotation. If that is the case we will give you Francoeur,WHO has plenty of potential, for lincecum who is thriving now.

The only thing that im worried about Lincecum is his mechanics. He puts way to much pressure on his back. Any twitch in his mechanics and his physical can start giving him issues.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-29-2008, 11:14 PM
I would agree. Cain does have development left as does Francoeour. For your sake I hope Cain works out, but I am telling you now. Cain will never equel Lincecum. You are telling me you would rather,if you HAD to, trade lincecum than Cain. Yuo would rather have Cain than Lincecum to man your rotation. If that is the case we will give you Francoeur,WHO has plenty of potential, for lincecum who is thriving now.

I do think Cain will be better than Lincecum, but I do not want to trade either one of them, EVER!

Saltyfan
06-29-2008, 11:24 PM
I will tell you right now if Cain is better than Lincecum you guys will be awesome one day. Thats if that ever happens. Again though if you HAD to which one would you trade.

giantspwn
06-29-2008, 11:45 PM
This thread is really getting pointless....Obviously Matt Cain has tons of POTENTIAL, but he has not been able to transform his Potential into a successful career yet...And the truth is is that maybe he will never be anything but mediocre but the potential is still there...The Giants turned down a trade last off season for either Cain or Lincecum for Alex Rios, so I doubt the Giants would trade Cain for Francouer( who is garbage IMO)..

CAIN=FUTURE
06-30-2008, 12:30 AM
I will tell you right now if Cain is better than Lincecum you guys will be awesome one day. Thats if that ever happens. Again though if you HAD to which one would you trade.

If I had to choose, id probabaly choose Lincecum because not only do I think Cain will be better, I think Lincecum would fetch the Giants more value on the trade market. Also, even if Cain isnt better than Lincecum, the Giants will still be awesome one day. One day soon might I add. The Giants are poised to have the best rotation in baseball within 5 years.

THE_FLASH_21
06-30-2008, 12:49 AM
Francoeur is not the fantastic, hes average at best.

Just saying, because I dont want this to turn in the thread we have like this in the Giants forum.


How the hell can u say Frenchy is AVG..... He's better then any OF u have on ur team.... And don't u dare say Rowand is better!!

THE_FLASH_21
06-30-2008, 12:51 AM
This thread is really getting pointless....Obviously Matt Cain has tons of POTENTIAL, but he has not been able to transform his Potential into a successful career yet...And the truth is is that maybe he will never be anything but mediocre but the potential is still there...The Giants turned down a trade last off season for either Cain or Lincecum for Alex Rios, so I doubt the Giants would trade Cain for Francouer( who is garbage IMO)..

GARBAGE????? lol... u wish buddy!!! My boy Frenchy can ball ~!!

nps6724
06-30-2008, 12:58 AM
Francoeur is an average OF, though he should be so much more than that. He has a great arm, but little range. He has good power and can hit for a good average, but hasn't put it all together for a full season. And he strikes out a lot. He will knock in his fair share of runs, but will miss many opportunities, a lot of which could be realized by just making contact instead of striking out. He's just not a smart hitter.

BUT, Jeff has at least compiled 1.5 seasons of very good play ('05 and '07) and another season of decent play ('06) and is far from garbage. That's more than can be said for Cain. Cain doesn't even have 1 good season under his belt, though he does have 1 decent season. I would take Frenchy and all his stupidity over Cain and his Jekyll and Hyde routine.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-30-2008, 01:01 AM
How the hell can u say Frenchy is AVG..... He's better then any OF u have on ur team.... And don't u dare say Rowand is better!!

Rowand, Winn, and Fred Lewis are all doing much better than Francoeur.

THE_FLASH_21
06-30-2008, 01:03 AM
Rowand, Winn, and Fred Lewis are all doing much better than Francoeur.

Frenchy is super young... and still can turn it around.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-30-2008, 01:08 AM
Frenchy is super young... and still can turn it around.

I dont doubt that, becuase now that I look at it he has the same thing wrong with him that Matt Cain does, altough I dont think he will make as big as a impact in the future as Cain will. Also, Lewis is still very young too, and dosnt need to turn anything around.

nps6724
06-30-2008, 01:12 AM
Rowand, Winn, and Fred Lewis are all doing much better than Francoeur.

Francoeur has more RBI, and HR than Lewis and Winn, more 2B and fewer SO than Lewis, and tied with Rowand in HR, BB, and SO. They are all hitting for a much higher AVG. All 4 are right around the same area: average with Rowand above-average currently. But Rowand, Winn, and Lewis combined have amassed only 1 year as good as Frenchy's '07, Rowand's '07.

MANU4eva
06-30-2008, 02:09 AM
CAIN=FUTURE is annoying...where do you get all this blind faith? You must be like 12 because you're not backing up your player with factual substance and last time I checked win-loss is pretty important.Plus Cain is going against most teams #3.Is your team that bad to not win those games? How is he going to win when he supposed to unseat Lincecum and take on #1. I all I hear is "you watch he's going to be great" and "all this potential" talk. Looking at your Tag I guess you have to say all that good stuff about Cain.

metsbulls1025
06-30-2008, 02:21 AM
I am not saying this because I am a Mets fan, but Francoure's value is at a all time low right now with how he is playing ( I live in NC and I hear the Braves on the Radio all the time. They talk about his struggles everyday ) and I would never trade a pitcher of Caine's potential struggling or not for a OF that seems to be back and fourth with getting it togther and in the middle of the biggest slump of his young career. That would be a bad trade imo and don't even know why it was brought up.

jmtapia
06-30-2008, 02:21 AM
This thread is really getting pointless....Obviously Matt Cain has tons of POTENTIAL, but he has not been able to transform his Potential into a successful career yet...And the truth is is that maybe he will never be anything but mediocre but the potential is still there...The Giants turned down a trade last off season for either Cain or Lincecum for Alex Rios, so I doubt the Giants would trade Cain for Francouer( who is garbage IMO)..

like ive told everyone that doesnt like this discussion....sorry you came in here but you got a taste if you dont like it dont click on this thread...THANKS

Disclaimer: thanks for your contribuition to this thread...really is that the best you can say that someone is garbage:rolleyes:

jmtapia
06-30-2008, 02:23 AM
I dont doubt that, becuase now that I look at it he has the same thing wrong with him that Matt Cain does, altough I dont think he will make as big as a impact in the future as Cain will. Also, Lewis is still very young too, and dosnt need to turn anything around.

Ok so Cain can turn it around but Frenchy cant???:rolleyes: Says whom the supper talent scout named CAIN=Future?

jmtapia
06-30-2008, 02:27 AM
I am not saying this because I am a Mets fan, but Francoure's value is at a all time low right now with how he is playing ( I live in NC and I hear the Braves on the Radio all the time. They talk about his struggles everyday ) and I would never trade a pitcher of Caine's potential struggling or not for a OF that seems to be back and fourth with getting it togther and in the middle of the biggest slump of his young career. That would be a bad trade imo and don't even know why it was brought up.

Most of the discussion has centered around potential. Obviously Frenchy wouldnt bring in bounty like that at the moment...

nps6724
06-30-2008, 02:31 AM
Ok so Cain can turn it around but Frenchy cant???:rolleyes: Says whom the supper talent scout named CAIN=Future?

What I don't get is how Cain, with 2 full years of starting in a pitcher's park with very limited success, has all this "potential" yet Francoeur, with 2 full years of starting and some ACTUAL success, is rubbish who will never be any good. I'm far from a Frenchy fan, but he's actually, you know, PRODUCED for an entire season. Cain, for all his success, has FAR MORE failures. In fact, he has 4 bad starts (27 starts giving up 4+ runs) to go with each of his gems (all those 1-hitters through 6). I'll take the guy who has actually produced something besides hype.

metsbulls1025
06-30-2008, 02:31 AM
Most of the discussion has centered around potential. Obviously Frenchy wouldnt bring in bounty like that at the moment...

Thats what I am saying. At the moment Frenchy wouldn't bring you in a pitcher of Caines potential unless he was putting up the numbers he is used to putting up. But then again if he was doing that you wouldn't trade him. :p

I really don't see Francoure being traded unless the Braves get blown away by a team that is 1 hitter away or believes they are one hitter away. Maybe like the Cardinals who's pitching is crazy at the moment and could use another bat.

nps6724
06-30-2008, 02:33 AM
Thats what I am saying. At the moment Frenchy wouldn't bring you in a pitcher of Caines calibur unless he was putting up the numbers he is used to putting up.

If this were last year, Cain wouldn't bring a player like Francoeur. Hell, this year Cain shouldn't bring anything more than Francouer. Both have been poor players in '08.

jmtapia
06-30-2008, 02:37 AM
If this were last year, Cain wouldn't bring a player like Francoeur. Hell, this year Cain shouldn't bring anything more than Francouer. Both have been poor players in '08.

Very very very true...last year Frenchy looked on his way to stardom...to bad he has fallen off this year....

I STILL HAVE FAITH THOUGH!!!!!!!!

metsbulls1025
06-30-2008, 02:46 AM
If this were last year, Cain wouldn't bring a player like Francoeur. Hell, this year Cain shouldn't bring anything more than Francouer. Both have been poor players in '08.

We both can admitt it wouldn't be smart to trade a pitcher like Caine or trade an OF like Frenchy. I know moe about Francoure then I do Caine and I know right now I wouldn't trade a pitcher like Caine for a struggling OF even tough he is yound and has had pretty good success. I would take pitcing over him.

nps6724
06-30-2008, 02:48 AM
We both can admitt it wouldn't be smart to trade a pitcher like Caine or trade an OF like Frenchy. I know moe about Francoure then I do Caine and I know right now I wouldn't trade a pitcher like Caine for a struggling OF even tough he is yound and has had pretty good success. I would take pitcing over him.

"A pitcher like Cain" is the part I don't get. What has he done, exactly? Have 7 great starts? If he was actually pitching well, then I could understand. I'd take '05, '06, and '07 Francoeur over any year of Cain.

metsbulls1025
06-30-2008, 02:52 AM
"A pitcher like Cain" is the part I don't get. What has he done, exactly? Have 7 great starts? If he was actually pitching well, then I could understand. I'd take '05, '06, and '07 Francoeur over any year of Cain.

I would not trade pitching and you have to agree that Caine has Ace stuff and I would not trade a Ace stuff pitcher for a OF that is struggling. We are talking right now becasuse this isn't 3 years ago. Right now you havean OF who is in the biggest slump of his career and you expect to bring in a very young pitcher with Ace stuff. I don't see the loginc. Again I am not bashing Francoure becuase I know he's good, but in the middle of a slump like this how do you expect to get something back like that.

nps6724
06-30-2008, 02:56 AM
I would not trade pitching and you have to agree that Caine has Ace stuff and I would not trade a Ace stuff pitcher for a OF that is struggling. We are talking right now becasuse this isn't 3 years ago. Right now you havean OF who is in the biggest slump of his career and you expect to bring in a very young pitcher with Ace stuff. I don't see the loginc. Again I am not bashing Francoure becuase I know he's good, but in the middle of a slump like this how do you expect to get something back like that.

3 years ago? Francoeur put up a very good season last year. What has Cain and his "ace stuff" ever done? Francoeur's in the middle of a slump, where is Cain? What is he doing? Can you answer that? No, because you don't know. You're basing everything on hype. "Ace stuff" is what you say when there is no evidence to back it up. You don't see the logic because you're basing it on you knowing Jeff because you're a Met fan and not knowing Cain because he plays in the West. Right now, NEITHER player is worth crap except what they MAY do in the future. Cain is doing just as poorly as Francoeur, the only difference is Francouer has actually played well for more than 7 games in his career.

metsbulls1025
06-30-2008, 03:07 AM
3 years ago? Francoeur put up a very good season last year. What has Cain and his "ace stuff" ever done? Francoeur's in the middle of a slump, where is Cain? What is he doing? Can you answer that? No, because you don't know. You're basing everything on hype. "Ace stuff" is what you say when there is no evidence to back it up. You don't see the logic because you're basing it on you knowing Jeff because you're a Met fan and not knowing Cain because he plays in the West. Right now, NEITHER player is worth crap except what they MAY do in the future. Cain is doing just as poorly as Francoeur, the only difference is Francouer has actually played well for more than 7 games in his career.

Let me break i down for you like this......

ERA's and Wins and loses don't matter as much as qaulity starts do.

QS QS% Name
25 89.3 Dan Haren
23 82.1 Brad Penny
23 85.2 Jake Peavy
21 80.8 John Smoltz
21 72.4 C.C. Sabathia
21 75.0 Tim Hudson
21 80.8 Fausto Carmona
21 75.0 Erik Bedard
20 71.4 Johan Santana
20 71.4 Tom Glavine
19 67.9 Andy Pettite
19 67.9 Roy Oswalt
19 70.3 John Lackey
19 76.0 Kelvim Escobar
18 64.3 Brandon Webb
18 66.7 Matt Cain
18 69.2 Mark Buehrle

Thisis in 2007 and Cain is on a pretty good list since this is both AL and NL. He has been hurt by lack of offensive production. If a pitcher lasts at least six innings while allowing three earned runs or less, he gets credit for a quality start.

So to me he has Ace potential and fo a struggling OF at the moment he does not get traded.

jmtapia
06-30-2008, 03:11 AM
Thisis in 2007 and Cain is on a pretty good list since this is both AL and NL. He has been hurt by lack of offensive production. If a pitcher lasts at least six innings while allowing three earned runs or less, he gets credit for a quality start.

So to me he has Ace potential and fo a struggling OF at the moment he does not get traded.

so whom does Tim LIncecum, whom is 9-1, play for the Cubs????

nps6724
06-30-2008, 03:20 AM
Quality Starts is a bogus stat invented so starting pitchers would have something else to use for a new contract when their wins and ERA weren't good enough. A QS = 4.50 ERA. That's not exactly "ace" material. And you're also basing 2007 numbers for Cain against Frenchy's 2008.

How is ERA not a good indicator for success but QS is, when the basic QS gives you a 4.50 ERA? If a 4.50 ERA is ace quality, there's a whole bunch of aces around. I'm not questioning how good Cain is when he's on. When he's off, he is TERRIBLE. T. E. R. R. I. B. L. E. 31% of his CAREER starts were bad or worse.

Again with the "ace potential" BS. Frenchy has the potential to hit .300, 40 2B, 30 HR, 100 RBI. Here's the difference, since you haven't figured it out yet: Jeff has actually DONE ALL THOSE THINGS. Cain has gotten rocked as much as he's been stellar. That's not an ace by any stretch of the imagination, whether or not he has the "potential" to be. Whoever created that word deserves a kick in the groin because it's used on every single person who struggles at anything in their lives. All US citizens have the potential to be the President of the US, too.

jmtapia
06-30-2008, 03:25 AM
Quality Starts is a bogus stat invented so starting pitchers would have something else to use for a new contract when their wins and ERA weren't good enough. A QS = 4.50 ERA. That's not exactly "ace" material. And you're also basing 2007 numbers for Cain against Frenchy's 2008.

How is ERA not a good indicator for success but QS is, when the basic QS gives you a 4.50 ERA? If a 4.50 ERA is ace quality, there's a whole bunch of aces around. I'm not questioning how good Cain is when he's on. When he's off, he is TERRIBLE. T. E. R. R. I. B. L. E. 31% of his CAREER starts were bad or worse.

nice try.....but you 100% WRONG:rolleyes::rolleyes:


An early criticism of the statistic, made by Moss Klein, writing in The Sporting News, is that a pitcher could conceivably meet the minimum requirements for a quality start and record a 4.50 ERA....Bill James addressed this in his 1987 Baseball Abstract, saying the hypothetical example (a pitcher going exactly 6 innings and allowing exactly 3 runs) was extremely rare amongst starts recorded as quality starts....This was later confirmed..... which found that the average ERA in quality starts during that time period was 1.91

metsbulls1025
06-30-2008, 04:11 AM
so whom does Tim LIncecum, whom is 9-1, play for the Cubs????

Ok well lets take Johan Santana who is 7-7 with an era of 2.98 hagotten 2 runs o less in his last 5 starts, but the Mets can put 15 on the board for Pelfry. Luck of the draw, but in order to get wins 9/10 times y0ur offense gets it for you.

jmtapia
06-30-2008, 04:28 AM
Ok well lets take Johan Santana who is 7-7 with an era of 2.98 hagotten 2 runs o less in his last 5 starts, but the Mets can put 15 on the board for Pelfry. Luck of the draw, but in order to get wins 9/10 times y0ur offense gets it for you.

For the sake of information he got 4 runs in one of those games.

Its not always "the luck of the draw". Take Lincecum for example in 4 or his 9 wins the Giants have scored 3 runs or less. But Lincecum has found a way to out pitch the opponent. With todays talent you have to do that. In all actual hood his only lost came on a questionable balk which could have added another to this list.

nps6724
06-30-2008, 10:57 AM
nice try.....but you 100% WRONG:rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's an average of ALL Quality Starts in 1987. Last time I checked, this is not 1987 and there has been quite an offensive boom since then. Also, when dealing with one specific player, the average of the population (in this case all starting pitchers with QS) has no bearing on the player himself. John Smoltz's QS have nothing to do with Cain, even though Smoltz's QS ERA would bring down the average. So I'm at the most 37% wrong, well, 37.41%.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-30-2008, 12:48 PM
Ok so Cain can turn it around but Frenchy cant???:rolleyes: Says whom the supper talent scout named CAIN=Future?

No I think Francoeur can turn it around. I just think when he reaches his peak he will be a 5th or 6th, and im leaning on 6th. Wether hes the #1 or #2 pitcher in the Giants rotation he will still be an ace and perenial Cy Young contender. Just wondering, is Francoeur doing any thing good right now offensivly. Because although Cain is still strugeling at ERA hes still striking people out.

CAIN=FUTURE
06-30-2008, 12:51 PM
For the sake of information he got 4 runs in one of those games.

Its not always "the luck of the draw". Take Lincecum for example in 4 or his 9 wins the Giants have scored 3 runs or less. But Lincecum has found a way to out pitch the opponent. With todays talent you have to do that. In all actual hood his only lost came on a questionable balk which could have added another to this list.

Im pretty sure that resulted in a no descion. His one loss came on a game were he gave up 1 run, 0 earned. But the Giants couldnt get one run across the plate. He could be 11-0 right now if wernt for bad umpires (****ed up a call at homeplate resulting in a no decison) poor offense (the game I previously mentioned) and the bullpen completly folding (the bullpen blew a 7 run lead for Lince, resulting in a no descion).

robdogg035
06-30-2008, 01:13 PM
Hey I traded Jeff Francoeur for Tim Lincecum on MLB the Show, does that count?!?!...

Yeah this isn't happening

CAIN=FUTURE
06-30-2008, 01:14 PM
Let me break i down for you like this......

ERA's and Wins and loses don't matter as much as qaulity starts do.

QS QS% Name
25 89.3 Dan Haren
23 82.1 Brad Penny
23 85.2 Jake Peavy
21 80.8 John Smoltz
21 72.4 C.C. Sabathia
21 75.0 Tim Hudson
21 80.8 Fausto Carmona
21 75.0 Erik Bedard
20 71.4 Johan Santana
20 71.4 Tom Glavine
19 67.9 Andy Pettite
19 67.9 Roy Oswalt
19 70.3 John Lackey
19 76.0 Kelvim Escobar
18 64.3 Brandon Webb
18 66.7 Matt Cain
18 69.2 Mark Buehrle

Thisis in 2007 and Cain is on a pretty good list since this is both AL and NL. He has been hurt by lack of offensive production. If a pitcher lasts at least six innings while allowing three earned runs or less, he gets credit for a quality start.

So to me he has Ace potential and fo a struggling OF at the moment he does not get traded.

Thats not from 2007, because in 2007 Cain had 22 QS's.

RandyRocks77
06-30-2008, 01:15 PM
No I think Francoeur can turn it around. I just think when he reaches his peak he will be a 5th or 6th, and im leaning on 6th. Wether hes the #1 or #2 pitcher in the Giants rotation he will still be an ace and perenial Cy Young contender. Just wondering, is Francoeur doing any thing good right now offensivly. Because although Cain is still strugeling at ERA hes still striking people out.


not Really I mean only 59 Ks... should be his lowest, .294 OBP, Only 5 Assits, 41 RBIs, 19 Doubles... Not Great but heck he's in a Slump! we all know this its not anything new to us.. He has the Same amount HRs, an SO as Rowand, 4 fewer Doubles, 7 less Hits, Frenchy Has 2 more Assits than Rowand.. But Aarron is gettign on Base more Slugging better and making a hell of a lot more$$$ than Frenchy... now that I look at the two I think Jeff will be OK..

CAIN=FUTURE
06-30-2008, 01:16 PM
CAIN=FUTURE is annoying...where do you get all this blind faith? You must be like 12 because you're not backing up your player with factual substance and last time I checked win-loss is pretty important.Plus Cain is going against most teams #3.Is your team that bad to not win those games? How is he going to win when he supposed to unseat Lincecum and take on #1. I all I hear is "you watch he's going to be great" and "all this potential" talk. Looking at your Tag I guess you have to say all that good stuff about Cain.

Who the **** are you? I dont use anything to back anything up? Then were the **** did you get "Plus Cain is going against most teams #3".

CAIN=FUTURE
06-30-2008, 01:18 PM
not Really I mean only 59 Ks... should be his lowest, .294 OBP, Only 5 Assits, 41 RBIs, 19 Doubles... Not Great but heck he's in a Slump! we all know this its not anything new to us.. He has the Same amount HRs, an SO as Rowand, 4 fewer Doubles, 7 less Hits, Frenchy Has 2 more Assits than Rowand.. But Aarron is gettign on Base more Slugging better and making a hell of a lot more$$$ than Frenchy... now that I look at the two I think Jeff will be OK..

See, my point right now is Francoeur isnt doing anything productive right now, and Cain is also slumping but hes still striking a lot of people out.

RandyRocks77
06-30-2008, 01:19 PM
Who the **** are you? I dont use anything to back anything up? Then were the **** did you get "Plus Cain is going against most teams #3".
OK Cain=Future play nice or don't play at all no need to cuss at the Lad!

RandyRocks77
06-30-2008, 01:22 PM
See, my point right now is Francoeur isnt doing anything productive right now, and Cain is also slumping but hes still striking a lot of people out.

This is a Team Sport! Jeff Is just one Guy... sure Cain is throwing Strikes.. but who catches them... I sure He gets good calls etc.. and has a Catcher that can call a good game etc.. and a manger that knows how many inngings to use him .. or to throw inside to a guy etc... a team can have a postion player in a slump and still be productive! their will be 8 more guys that come up to the plate other than him!

CAIN=FUTURE
06-30-2008, 01:24 PM
This is a Team Sport! Jeff Is just one Guy... sure Cain is throwing Strikes.. but who catches them... I sure He gets good calls etc.. and has a Catcher that can call a good game etc.. and a manger that knows how many inngings to use him .. or to throw inside to a guy etc... a team can have a postion player in a slump and still be productive! their will be 8 more guys that come up to the plate other than him!

Thats not my point. My point is, altough Cain is strugeling in one area, he is exceling in another.

BRAVE KID
06-30-2008, 01:29 PM
might as well rename this thread the "Cain potential thread"

RandyRocks77
06-30-2008, 01:36 PM
Thats not my point. My point is, altough Cain is strugeling in one area, he is exceling in another.


How Many games has Cain Won by himself? BaseBall is a stat game but to goal is to win!... Man you keep going on and on about Cain... he's good but you are putting him up there with the Best he ranks 7th in the NL with Most Ks... you may say he's only 23 well there is a Pitcher with the red who is just 1 year older than him and Owns him! ranks #33 in ERA, ranks 10 in Walks (not bad ) but your Screen name should say Edinson Volquez=Future! lol don't get me wrong I would like to have Cain on the Braves... but its not going to happen!

RandyRocks77
06-30-2008, 01:36 PM
might as well rename this thread the "Cain potential thread"
Amen to that brother Or Cain is Stuggling in on area but doing good in another.. what is Jeff doing.... nah too long

nps6724
06-30-2008, 01:42 PM
Thats not my point. My point is, altough Cain is strugeling in one area, he is exceling in another.

Francoeur is still getting his doubles (19 through 322 AB, 40 last year in 642 AB), he is walking as much as he did last year (42 times last year, 20 so far this year), his HR total is slightly down from last year (8 through 82 games in '08, 19 in 162 games in '07), and he's actually striking out less than usual (down 2% from the last 2 years). His percentage of his hits that are XBH is higher this year than his previous 2. If he gets on any kind of hot streak that lasts a week, his production will be on par with his '07 numbers, which were quite good.

robdizzle3
06-30-2008, 03:52 PM
Sad. Would you trade Randy Winn straight up for him.

I would absolutely not trade Frenchy for Winn straight up.Frenchy will be a great player when he puts it together but he has to or it will be wasted talent

tcro24
06-30-2008, 04:10 PM
Guys, as much as I hate to say it, Francoeur is a long way away from "putting it all together". He's still making the same mistakes he's always made, but now he's not doing what he used to do well (i.e. make productive outs, hit a sac fly with a guy on third and less than two outs). The guy is chopping wood at the plate. He's just up there swinging. To speed up the game, they should start his AB's at 0-2 since that's where he's going anyway. I don't think he has much trade value except for the fact that he controlable the next couple of years, but even then he'll have to be paid through arbitration. I know I'm ranting, but the guy hasn't hit a solid ball in what feels like a month and he still hasn't shortened the swing. He's still trying to hit everything to the parking lot. I don't see it getting better and I don't see him wearing anything but a Tomahawk.

ugafan
06-30-2008, 04:21 PM
Thats not from 2007, because in 2007 Cain had 22 QS's.

You do realize Tom Glavine is ahead of him right? STFU like seriously.

robdizzle3
06-30-2008, 04:25 PM
I wish Frenchy would read some of this because he would probably get motivated with some of this material because I now if have a bad slump or I have some bad games in basketball and I hear something from anyone negative I work really hard to prove them wrong and it works.But when Frenchy starts to turn around I dont want the people who are trying him to sing his praises when he gets it together.Im tired of hearing what Matt Cain is gonna do because he is just like Frenchy in the boat of potential and until I see Matt Cain "put it together" dont say anything about Frenchy or any other player that has "potential" and hasnt tapped it yet.Come on Fenchy

jmtapia
06-30-2008, 05:40 PM
^^^ Hell if we knew Frenchy would turn it around we wouldnt need to go get Bay or someone else. Everyone was convinced that Frenchy was on his to stardom. I cant wait for the ASB. Give Frenchy 3-4 Days to go home lay on the couch and free his mind.

I think when he comes back he will be fresh and ready for a new start. Like he said "see it and hit it". I would love to see a huge jump in BA but at the very least i want his "clutchness" no come back.

MANU4eva
07-01-2008, 01:15 PM
Wow i didnt know this thing was PG rated

BRAVE KID
07-01-2008, 01:52 PM
just following the rules bud.

sjoranje
07-01-2008, 02:52 PM
Are you people serious? Matt Cain? Are you serious? I personally liked the quote that FC_4_life said about Matt Cain having the ability to go out and throw a no hitter every night!! Once again...are you serious? If Matt Cain has the ability to go out and throw a no-no every night then so does my Grandma. That is a ridiculous assumption considering that we get a no hitter maybe twice a year! THE GIANTS SUCK!!! BARRY BONDS drained the life force right out of them...might as well move them to North Dakota or something!

Jeff is definitely struggling....but let's face it.....he is a horse! Solid defense and the ability to keep on the DL is a huge asset to any team. Until recently he had the longest consecutive games streak in baseball. He has a cannon for an arm and won a gold glove last year for crying out loud.

Matt Cain is a solid pitcher but do I think he will be good for another 10 years? HELL NO!! I would say he still has some upside but not much more than a few years. Besides......Franceour is more than just a good ball player! He is one of those guys that Braves fans want to see when we go to the park.

I wouldn't take Cain straight up for Frenchy! There is no way.....Wren would get laughed right out of the braves organization for that. Frenchy may be struggling but he is still very young and with coaches like Bobby and Terry making things right....he will bounce back. Look for him to have a strong second half.

BRAVE KID
07-01-2008, 02:59 PM
don't bother cain=future this will never end.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-01-2008, 02:59 PM
Are you people serious? Matt Cain? Are you serious? I personally liked the quote that FC_4_life said about Matt Cain having the ability to go out and throw a no hitter every night!! Once again...are you serious? If Matt Cain has the ability to go out and throw a no-no every night then so does my Grandma. That is a ridiculous assumption considering that we get a no hitter maybe twice a year! THE GIANTS SUCK!!! BARRY BONDS drained the life force right out of them...might as well move them to North Dakota or something!

Jeff is definitely struggling....but let's face it.....he is a horse! Solid defense and the ability to keep on the DL is a huge asset to any team. Until recently he had the longest consecutive games streak in baseball. He has a cannon for an arm and won a gold glove last year for crying out loud.

Matt Cain is a solid pitcher but do I think he will be good for another 10 years? HELL NO!! I would say he still has some upside but not much more than a few years. Besides......Franceour is more than just a good ball player! He is one of those guys that Braves fans want to see when we go to the park.

I wouldn't take Cain straight up for Frenchy! There is no way.....Wren would get laughed right out of the braves organization for that. Frenchy may be struggling but he is still very young and with coaches like Bobby and Terry making things right....he will bounce back. Look for him to have a strong second half.

If the Braves pulled that trade off it would go down as one of the biggest trade robberies of all time. I love how you base everything you say off absolutly nothing.

Why the **** would the Giants move to North Dakota? THe Giants have fans unlike, idk, the Braves. What team wasnt able to sell out a playoff game? Yeah, the Braves.

CAIN=FUTURE
07-01-2008, 03:00 PM
don't bother cain=future this will never end.

Sorry, I posted before I read your post.

BRAVE KID
07-01-2008, 03:01 PM
alright that is enough this pitiful arguement ends now.