PDA

View Full Version : Greatest righthander of all time



In_Ned_I_Trust
06-28-2008, 02:12 AM
My buddy and I were talking about this tonight so I thought I would like to see what you guys think. My pick hands down is Nolan Ryan. I don't need to post his stats but longevity, speed, overall dominance did it for me.

ShinobiNYC
06-28-2008, 03:38 AM
1- Tom Seaver
2- Pedro Martinez
3- Greg Maddux

bagwell368
06-28-2008, 03:09 PM
Before 1925 it's easily Walter Johnson, since then Ryan doesn't even crack the top 10.

While he had the most K's, he had the most BB's too, and by a larger percentage lead then he did in K's. He is the all time leader in Wild Pitches. He is also 3rd all time in Losses, but only 14th in wins.

While he has all those no hitters, he was never great enough to win a Cy Young. He only had a couple of elite seasons with ERA+ over 130, and finished at 111, a long way from elite. His IP, and longevity is enough to get him into the HoF. 13 of 27 seasons he finished with less then 200 IP, he only won 20 twice, and he was in a 4 man rotation most of his career.

Off the top of my head, I'd rather have all these guys:

Pedro
Clemens
Maddux
Seaver
Gibson
Palmer
Feller
Schilling
Marichal
Roberts
Jenkins

Overall is Ryan great - sure. Is he the best, no way. If the list included lefties there are another quick 10 that I would take.

No.

Phann
06-28-2008, 03:38 PM
Nolan Ryan is my choice. That picture of him bleeding comes to mind for me.

Redbull
06-28-2008, 04:33 PM
I don't care what the stats show my pick is Nolan Ryan, he pitched his whole career with basically no offense and still put up GREAT numbers. 7 no-hitters isn't bad either.

PhillyLuver
06-28-2008, 05:20 PM
During his peak, nobody could touch Pedro.

My pick is Roger though.

bagwell368
06-28-2008, 05:58 PM
You don't care what the stats show?

The stats show Ryan was great for longevity, walking guys and striking out guys. His W-L records were quite poor even when he was on good teams.

Per inning, Pedro is the best of all time. For a long term ~5k IP guy, Clemens is the guy.

Ryan is nice as an impressive guy. But throwing the ball through the backstop is NOT the purpose of pitching. Preventing the other team from scoring is, and lots of other guys did that a lot better then Ryan.

Both in terms of career, 10 best years, 5 year peak, best year - you name it. 7 no hitters is just great. But when were they going to come? You have a much better chance to win to go with Pedro or Roger then Ryan. Period. Fact. Both the eyes and the stats show it.

Buckwheat
06-28-2008, 10:56 PM
Danny Graves

iam brett favre
06-28-2008, 11:45 PM
Walter Johnson.

giantspwn
06-28-2008, 11:52 PM
Nolan Ryan...

bagwell368
06-30-2008, 02:35 PM
Anyone that says Ryan is #1 is:

captive of some media segment they saw as a child - or -

a fan of a team he played for (that's a long list) - or -

just generally ignorant of what it takes to be (not just great, but THE greatest) pitcher in the history ML's

In_Ned_I_Trust
07-01-2008, 01:10 AM
^ I'm neither of those 3 btw I like his overall work 7 no hitters 5000K's 300 W's and he pitched forever, and was still viable well after 40. He threw a no hitter at 44! His problem was being on mediocre teams for the majority of his career. Pedro is 36 this year and has been plagued with injuries and will never pitch to that level again, let alone throwing a no hitter 8 years from now. Clemens is 45 this year and hasn't been the Roger of old since well... IMO.

bagwell368
07-01-2008, 08:32 AM
His problem was being on mediocre teams for the majority of his career.

His problem is giving up a good deal more runs per inning then many pitcher before and after him.


There are 300 pitchers in the history of MLB with 2233 IP or more. Let's call that the floor for longevity. Ryan is 5th at 5386, which is great, but his ERA+ of 111 is very poor for a "great" pitcher. That means he was 11% better then the guys that pitched in his time and in his leagues.

Walter Johnson pitched about 550 IP more, and had an ERA+ of 147 which is the range an immortal should be at. That's more then 4 times the separation from mortals then Ryan had, and he had more IP to boot. Conversation over since Johnson mastered the dead ball and live ball era.

Cy Young threw almost 2000 inning more then Ryan for a 138 ERA+. Strike two.

Gaylord Perry threw 20 innings less then Ryan for a 117 ERA+. Strike three.

Alexander threw 200 IP less for a 135 ERA+, another guy that mastered dead and live ball eras.

Clemens pitched 450 IP less for a 143 ERA+, pitched in more difficult circumstances then any pitcher named so far.

Maddux the same IP as Clemens for a 133 ERA+

What's that? strike 7?

You are right, Pedro is about done. He "only" pitched 2704 innings so far good for 184th all time. Koufax (yes a lefty) and Pedro are the opposite of Ryan - they have amazing rate stats, Ryan has SOME counting stats. They did not take the mound as much, but when they did, they were steller in a way Ryan could only attain every now and then.

Ryan is #1 in K's and #1 in BB's.

Pedro has Ryan smashed in Awards, level of attainments:
CY Awards and Shares (5th all time)
ERA titles (5)
ERA (1st active)
WHIP (#1 all time)
K/9 IP (#3 all time)
W/L % (3rd all time)
BB+H / 9 IP (3rd all time)
K / BB ratio (3rd all time)
ERA+ of 158 (#1 all time)

The only pitcher that's even in the ballpark with Pedro on these stats is Koufax, and he's not really that close. Ryan is hopeless looked at in this way.

I go back to Koufax, and the way I place my RH SP is (I do tend to give more weight to strong rate guys over career hang around guys):

#1 Pedro
#2 Clemens

#3 Gibson
#4 Seaver
#5 Maddux
#6 Palmer

#7 Schilling
#8 Marichal
#9 Ryan
#10 Cone

honorable mention to Saberhagen, Brown, Tiant, Morris, Blyleven, Hershiser, Mike Scott, JR Richard, Oswalt

Tragedy
07-01-2008, 10:08 AM
Per inning, Pedro is the best of all time. For a long term ~5k IP guy, Clemens is the guy.
Man, I was going to come in here and make a long post, but this basically sums up what I was planning on saying.

cwilson21
07-01-2008, 11:41 AM
There's a reason to why Jason Stark labeled Nolan Ryan as the most overrated pitcher in history, or at least right-handed pitcher in history.

choog
07-01-2008, 01:28 PM
During his peak, nobody could touch Pedro.

My pick is Roger though.

Look up Sandy Koufax. His peak was much more superior in my opinion. I think his last 5 yrs were the best 5 consecutive years of any pitcher. He was the most dominant.

Bob Gibson is also better than Pedro. . . .I think.

bagwell368
07-04-2008, 08:22 PM
Look up Sandy Koufax. His peak was much more superior in my opinion. I think his last 5 yrs were the best 5 consecutive years of any pitcher. He was the most dominant.

Bob Gibson is also better than Pedro. . . .I think.

Dude... the title says righthander - Koufax was a lefty.

Koufax's peak was not superior to Pedro's. Although it was excellent. Koufax played in a time of low offensive output (huge strike zones, unregulated and very tall mound heights, he also pitched in a great pitchers park). His ERA+ is elite, but no match for Pedro. Pedro is of the era of 5 man rotations and RP's so his totals are less per year then Koufax, but he had more great years and more good years then Koufax compared to to guys of his time. Simply stated Pedro inning per inning is the greatest pitcher ever by a good measure for anyone over 1500 IP's in his career. But others like WJ and Clemens and Maddux and Randy have higher career value because their rates were very excellent and they pitched a lot more.

Gibson's ERA of 1.12 is probably one of the most overrated great stats of the past 50 years. It is great, but it is not the greatest. Pedro's mark of 1.74 in 2000 is the greatest since the pitching distance was moved to 60' 6" in 1893 because the league ERA was 5.07 making him 191% better then average. Gibson's 1.12 occured in a league with a 2.90 average (pretty much all star/cy young material these days) for 158% better then average. Gibson's mark is better then Mathewson's 1.14 in '09 because that was only 112% over league.

So you see, raw ERA's just lead to misunderstanding and mis-rating.

Ragun
07-05-2008, 04:12 PM
Nolan Ryan