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WSUJJ
06-27-2008, 10:36 PM
Johan Santana
Cliff lee
Ben Sheets
Carlos Zambrano
Scott baker

Uh oh, I made 2 on accident I guess pick which ones :) OK, Scott baker being from MN come on let me hear the rants lol






PS: right now

Joba Rules!!
06-27-2008, 10:41 PM
PS: player comparison forum

Scott Baker? :laugh:

WSUJJ
06-27-2008, 10:43 PM
Hometown :)

Humongo
06-27-2008, 10:45 PM
? The poll doesn't even match the guys you listed. Plus, as far as I know, "overally" isn't a word. I've never it used anyways.

And Baker can't shine any of those guys shoes.

BALLER71
06-27-2008, 10:48 PM
Brandon Webb

WSUJJ
06-27-2008, 10:49 PM
lol read it again I made a mistake chill

Strumpy
06-27-2008, 10:50 PM
Johan Santana
Cliff lee
Ben Sheets
Carlos Zambrano
Scott baker

Uh oh, I made 2 on accident I guess pick which ones :) OK, Scott baker being from MN come on let me hear the rants lol






PS: right now

You might as well put Shawn Chacon in there.

chrisw#17
06-28-2008, 12:34 AM
Roy Halladay is better than all those pitchers. He is the most consistent, plays in the toughest division in the MLB.

nyyfan4life
06-28-2008, 01:35 AM
When healthy Ben Sheets and Rich Harden are right up there.

Overally???

TheHoopsProphet
06-28-2008, 01:41 AM
Roy Halladay is better than all those pitchers. He is the most consistent, plays in the toughest division in the MLB.

thank you

PhillyLuver
06-28-2008, 01:55 AM
Out of those guys, webb.

Definitely not Peavy or Beckett right now

dbow2019
06-28-2008, 01:59 AM
its funny.... 3 people on that list are on my fantasy baseball team

JAYZFAN9
06-28-2008, 03:09 AM
Doc just continues to get NO credit... Look past the W-L people. His #'s across the board are better then Webbs this year

nygiants242
06-28-2008, 03:28 AM
what about Harden? Sure hes injury prone but right now he is downright filthy

ShinobiNYC
06-28-2008, 03:41 AM
Right now meaning this year it's gotta be Edinson Volquez.

sacgiants1213
06-28-2008, 04:24 AM
tim lincecum

L-MiLLZ44
06-28-2008, 08:22 AM
i picked brandon webb

Johan=LightsOut
06-28-2008, 09:31 AM
edinson volquez, tim lincecum????????

Phann
06-28-2008, 09:42 AM
Brandon Webb is a machine. I have to go with him.

WSUJJ
06-28-2008, 09:53 AM
very true

Joba Rules!!
06-28-2008, 12:03 PM
Doc just continues to get NO credit... Look past the W-L people. His #'s across the board are better then Webbs this year

Halladay- 130 ERA+, 1.08 WHIP, 7.4 K/9
Webb- 140 ERA+, 1.1 WHIP, 7.8 K/9

Looks pretty damn even to me, Webb may even have the edge because of the adjusted ERA.

Kenny
06-28-2008, 12:03 PM
Brandon Webb is a machine. I have to go with him.

He's been getting rocked his last coule starts and has a ERA in the 3.2 range.

Cubsjunkie
06-28-2008, 12:10 PM
Gotta go with Doc Halladay. I'm still surprised the Cubs beat him.

And just to emphasize, "overally?"

awesomeovie8
06-28-2008, 12:39 PM
halladay, shame i cant vote for him

torontosports10
06-28-2008, 12:49 PM
Halladay- 130 ERA+, 1.08 WHIP, 7.4 K/9
Webb- 140 ERA+, 1.1 WHIP, 7.8 K/9

Looks pretty damn even to me, Webb may even have the edge because of the adjusted ERA.

Playin in tougher leagues too

Yanks,Red sox and D rays

or

Giants,Padres,Rockies

hmmm

Redbull
06-28-2008, 12:59 PM
Brandon Webb, He is just very consistent.

L-MiLLZ44
06-28-2008, 01:00 PM
if this is for just this year where is the joe saunders, ervin santana, edinson volquez ........ thats why i picked brandon webb, overallYYY!!!

quiksilver2491
06-28-2008, 01:21 PM
Playin in tougher leagues too

Yanks,Red sox and D rays

or

Giants,Padres,Rockies

hmmm

Who cares the score keepers lower his ERA anyways :rolleyes:

JAYZFAN9
06-28-2008, 02:19 PM
Halladay- 130 ERA+, 1.08 WHIP, 7.4 K/9
Webb- 140 ERA+, 1.1 WHIP, 7.8 K/9

Looks pretty damn even to me, Webb may even have the edge because of the adjusted ERA.

Doc- 7.42 K/9, 1.49 BB/9, 5.26 BB/K Ratio
Webb- 7.30K/9,2.21 BB/9, 3.31 BB/K Ratio

Doc also leads the majors in IP. Combine that with his great command and dominance and its hard to argue with that imho.

sanfranfan1210
06-29-2008, 12:39 AM
Doc Halladay

iam brett favre
06-29-2008, 01:19 AM
Uhh.. Kei Igawa?

WSUJJ
06-30-2008, 03:51 PM
Well thanks for posting WEEE

bosox3431
06-30-2008, 04:11 PM
Playin in tougher leagues too

Yanks,Red sox and D rays

or

Giants,Padres,Rockies

hmmm

ERA+ , it adjust for league and ball park that a pitcher pitches in, so the 10 points Webb has on Halladay actually means something. Halladay is great, but Webb is arguably the best in the league

x_notorious
06-30-2008, 04:37 PM
Names that come to mind:

Roy Halladay
Brandon Webb
Tim Lincecum
John Lackey

Joba Rules!!
07-02-2008, 08:03 PM
Playin in tougher leagues too

Yanks,Red sox and D rays

or

Giants,Padres,Rockies

hmmm

ERA+ is adjusted for league and park....Webb's is still better.

Mile High Champ
07-04-2008, 09:00 AM
Yeah no doc on this list, figures, haha kazmir has proven nothing yet and is apart of this thread.. what a joke.

homie564
07-04-2008, 10:01 AM
you people say roy halladay... why??? he plays in the toughest division... beckett and kazmir dont??? cuz i couldve swore they all played in the a.l east... if i opicked because of that id definitely go josh beckett/scott kazmir/daisuke matsuzaka ... u people confuse me :confused:

JAYZFAN9
07-04-2008, 05:07 PM
you people say roy halladay... why??? he plays in the toughest division... beckett and kazmir dont??? cuz i couldve swore they all played in the a.l east... if i opicked because of that id definitely go josh beckett/scott kazmir/daisuke matsuzaka ... u people confuse me :confused:

lol

Humongo
07-05-2008, 09:44 AM
We have to keep in mind that Steve Traschel pitches in baseball's toughest division. Therefore he automatically gets thrown into the running for best overally pitcher in the majors.

Ragun
07-05-2008, 04:07 PM
Where is Halladay? I think Halladay is the best overall pitcher...can pitch forever, can SO pitchers, all-star, won a Cy young...

WSUJJ
07-11-2008, 06:22 PM
I guess Ben Sheets has improoved a ton

Halladay
07-11-2008, 09:10 PM
you people say roy halladay... why??? he plays in the toughest division... beckett and kazmir dont??? cuz i couldve swore they all played in the a.l east... if i opicked because of that id definitely go josh beckett/scott kazmir/daisuke matsuzaka ... u people confuse me :confused:

Everytime I see you post, I throw up. Your homerism makes me sick to my stomach.

Pujolsfan91
07-11-2008, 10:25 PM
Of the choices, I'd have to with Brandon Webb. Halladay on the other hand doesn't get mentioned a whole lot because he's on a meh team.

Humongo
07-12-2008, 03:31 AM
137 IP in the first half, 1.04 WHIP, 141 ERA+, 2.88 ERA.

I'll go with Halladay.

blujaysrock
07-12-2008, 08:20 AM
Halladay? hes like top 5 in every category and "1 in a lot

North Yorker
07-12-2008, 08:26 AM
Too bad you dont have the best overall pitcher in the poll...












*cough*cough*Doc*cough

JAYZFAN9
07-12-2008, 01:00 PM
137 IP in the first half, 1.04 WHIP, 141 ERA+, 2.88 ERA.

I'll go with Halladay.

Make that 146.3 IP, .99 WHIP, 150 ERA+, 2.71 ERA after last night :)

Last night vs the yanks

9.0 IP, 2H, 1 BB , 8K

WSUJJ
07-18-2008, 11:48 PM
Roy Halader just got a divorece

Seamhead
07-19-2008, 01:55 PM
His name is Johan Santana.

Humongo
07-20-2008, 07:40 PM
Roy Halader just got a divorece

His "divorece" has what to do with anything?

Halladay
07-20-2008, 08:16 PM
Divorce? WTF lol...His wife was on TV a few days ago...thats some random **** right there.

cwilson21
07-20-2008, 09:07 PM
Isn't the title "overall"? I'll still stick with Santana considering he also has a GG to his name.

yaowowrocket11
07-20-2008, 09:37 PM
Brandon Webb is easily the best and most consistent starter in the league.

Halladay
07-20-2008, 10:14 PM
Isn't the title "overall"? I'll still stick with Santana considering he also has a GG to his name.

Halladay has what, 8 CG's? :eyebrow:

Halladay
07-20-2008, 10:22 PM
Doc is 9'th in ERA, (he was third or something but he had a bad outing yesterday against the Rays) 6'th in K's, 1'st in CG's, 1'st in IP, 2'nd in K/BB, 13'th in BAA...

cwilson21
07-20-2008, 10:29 PM
He gets a lot of complete games but he is on a much bigger leash than a lot of the other starters in baseball. I'd still take Santana considering he has won a GG, 2 Cy Youngs, had a 3.33 ERA in his "worst" season, and has been under-the-radar good in his first season adjusting to the NL.

eyememine
07-21-2008, 05:46 AM
Id take Santana over any other pitcher in baseball. Doc is a close second but he seems to be a bit more injured (even though some are "freak"). But none compare to the great Kyle Lohse (hey I can be a homer too)

WSUJJ
07-21-2008, 08:11 PM
I Say Boof Bonser

WSUJJ
07-24-2008, 05:34 PM
lol ^ ^

Kyle man
07-25-2008, 08:26 PM
As much as I love Brandon Webb, I'll have to go with Johan Santana

eyememine
07-26-2008, 02:54 AM
Can someone post the era+ or whatever it is on Johan and Webb so we can see who has better stats?

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
07-26-2008, 02:56 AM
CC Sabathia??!

SportsFan1988
07-26-2008, 02:04 PM
I like this thread, you can make a good discussion about it.

I'm going to go with Jake Peavy, although he seems to be injured quite often, when he is healthy, you simply can't hit the guy. He has the command on his pitches, that basically no hitter can hit, I just love watching this guy pitch, he's absolutely amazing.

SportsFan1988
07-26-2008, 02:11 PM
Can someone post the era+ or whatever it is on Johan and Webb so we can see who has better stats?

Johan: 8-7 3.05era 0cg 0sho 138.2inn 130h 17hr 2hbp 38bb 120ks

Webb: 13-4 3.11era 2cg 1sho 139.0inn 125h 8hr 8hbp 36bb 116ks

The stats are very close, but I'm gonna go with Webb because he's less injury proned.

SportsFan1988
07-26-2008, 02:13 PM
Oh and Scott Kazmir shouldn't even be a candidate, there are plenty of guys I can name that are more deserving of being put up on that list...please

blujaysrock
07-26-2008, 02:16 PM
roy halladay?

SportsFan1988
07-26-2008, 02:36 PM
roy halladay?

He is definitely among the top, but I wouldn't call him the best.

kyubi256
07-26-2008, 03:55 PM
please have an "other" choice

i have to say Roy Halladay... just always an innings eater and always dominant

WSUJJ
07-27-2008, 12:15 AM
Can someone post the era+ or whatever it is on Johan and Webb so we can see who has better stats?


Johan Santana's ERA= 3.05
Brandon Webb's ERA = 3.11

Raidaz4Life
07-27-2008, 01:26 AM
Gotta go with Webb

ShinobiNYC
07-27-2008, 03:40 AM
1- Sabathia
2- Halladay
3- Harden
4- Lincecum
5- Webb

koldjerky
07-27-2008, 12:29 PM
Roy Halladay has been one of the most complete pitchers in years. He gets my vote.

MaZin420
07-28-2008, 02:29 AM
1- Sabathia
2- Halladay
3- Harden
4- Lincecum
5- Webb

:laugh:

ShinobiNYC
07-28-2008, 02:49 AM
:laugh:

Sabathia with the Brewers: 4 GS, 3 CG, 33 IPs, 1.36 ERA,0.84 WHIP, 318 ERA+

Seamhead
07-28-2008, 03:04 AM
Sabathia with the Brewers: 4 GS, 3 CG, 33 IPs, 1.36 ERA,0.84 WHIP, 318 ERA+

So a 4 game sample size makes him the best pitcher in the majors? Where's Johan?

bartoron
07-28-2008, 08:31 AM
So a 4 game sample size makes him the best pitcher in the majors? Where's Johan?

I'm pretty sure he meant at the moment.

Anyways, I voted for Jake Peavy in the poll. He's amazing. His ERA+ this year is 147. That's really, really good.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-28-2008, 11:20 AM
Dan Haren gets no love what so ever ERA+ of 178 right now

Humongo
07-28-2008, 11:43 AM
Johan: 8-7 3.05era 0cg 0sho 138.2inn 130h 17hr 2hbp 38bb 120ks

Webb: 13-4 3.11era 2cg 1sho 139.0inn 125h 8hr 8hbp 36bb 116ks

The stats are very close, but I'm gonna go with Webb because he's less injury proned.

That makes no sense, whatsoever.

ShinobiNYC
07-28-2008, 12:37 PM
Well I was assuming we are voting who is the best pitcher RIGHT NOW.

SportsFan1988
07-28-2008, 01:16 PM
That makes no sense, whatsoever.

One asked for someone to compare the two by posting the stats, so I did....

ShinobiNYC
07-28-2008, 01:31 PM
One asked for someone to compare the two by posting the stats, so I did....

When was Santana injured?

Seamhead
07-28-2008, 02:26 PM
Well I was assuming we are voting who is the best pitcher RIGHT NOW.

Yeah, exactly. 4 starts don't tell you true talent level.

SportsFan1988
07-28-2008, 03:19 PM
When was Santana injured?

He hasn't, but if either of the two I'd think he has more of a chance than hurting himself than Webb. In fact, in the past I wouldn't be surprised if Santana faked an injury. Last year for example - his era went from 2.75 to 4.04 just like that and it was quite obvious that something was off, I'm not making a big deal out of this, nor am I saying he's faking an injury now, I would just rather have Webb on my team.

giantspwn
07-28-2008, 05:06 PM
Adjusted ERA+
Lee-186
Haren-178
Duchscherer-164
Volquez-163
Lincecum-155
Zambrano-152
Sheets-151
Dempster-151
Peavy-147
Halladay-146

It's funny because there's only 1 option(Jake Peavy) to vote for thats in the top 10 best pitchers as of right now with ERA+ ...

rickyk13
07-30-2008, 11:24 AM
Beckett and kazmir arent even the best pitcher in the AL East
Roy Halladay is the best pitcher in the league
he has a total of 13 run support in his 9 losses
he has 7 complete games which is more than any other entire staff in the league
has an era under 3
doesnt throw a straight pitch and is willing to come out of the bullpen in extra inning game
put him on the list

SportsFan1988
07-30-2008, 01:15 PM
Beckett and kazmir arent even the best pitcher in the AL East
Roy Halladay is the best pitcher in the league
he has a total of 13 run support in his 9 losses
he has 7 complete games which is more than any other entire staff in the league
has an era under 3
doesnt throw a straight pitch and is willing to come out of the bullpen in extra inning game
put him on the list

Oh yeah, I'd say he is at least in the top 3, no doubt.

ShinobiNYC
07-30-2008, 02:39 PM
I may be harsh here but Beckett sux usually in the regular season. Last year was the exception.

WSUJJ
08-02-2008, 09:13 PM
Burp

Matt-the-great
08-08-2008, 02:15 PM
roy Halladay

m26555
08-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Why is Roy Halladay not on this list? I'll take him.

WSUJJ
08-08-2008, 04:25 PM
roy isnt that good

why is he called doc?

JAYZFAN9
08-08-2008, 04:33 PM
roy isnt that good

why is he called doc?

please explain

WSUJJ
08-11-2008, 11:00 PM
He walks a lot of ppl and is injured all the time

JAYZFAN9
08-12-2008, 03:00 AM
He walks a lot of ppl and is injured all the time

lol are u kidding

He has the second best K: BB ratio in the majors

1.55 BB/9

LOL nice try kid

OnWisconsin2007
08-14-2008, 03:34 AM
CC Sabathia right now and it's not close.

LAcowBOMBER
08-14-2008, 07:02 AM
roy isnt that good

why is he called doc?

He's called Doc becuase Doc Holliday was a famous gun-slinger from the old west who fought with Wyatt Earp at the OK Corral.

It's a pretty sweet and somewhat appropriate nickname

LAcowBOMBER
08-14-2008, 07:04 AM
BTW Doc is the best pitcher

bagwell368
08-14-2008, 08:37 AM
between those guys I'll go with CC. But Jon Lester, Lincecum, and several other young men have other plans.

papipapsmanny
08-17-2008, 02:29 AM
its halladay right now innins and low ERA

JAYZFAN9
08-17-2008, 05:09 AM
yah cant really argue with doc right now.... w-l can be decieving...

3rd best ERA in the AL and hes almost at 200 innings already... 8 CG's

The mans an animal

North Yorker
08-18-2008, 11:40 AM
Anyone who actually saw him pitch, and not just look at the stats and his W/L record, would say the Doc.

NYMetros
08-18-2008, 11:56 AM
1. Roy Halladay
2. Jake Peavy
3. Johan Santana

Biermania23
08-21-2008, 07:43 PM
1. Roy Halladay
2. Jake Peavy
3. Johan Santana

Cannot agree more, but Johan needs runs. I think Dice-K right now is one of the best

quiksilver2491
08-21-2008, 08:20 PM
I have to go with Brandon Webb, Doc isn't far behind though.

WSUJJ
08-23-2008, 04:47 PM
1. Webb
2 Santana
3 Harren
4 Zambrano
5 Johnson
6 Sabathia
7 Sheets
8 Grienke
9- Liriano
10- Doc

Sox Appeal
08-23-2008, 05:02 PM
Cannot agree more, but Johan needs runs. I think Dice-K right now is one of the best

Your watching to much ESPN. Dice K is averaging around 5 IP per start, and he's averaging WELL over 100 pitches in those 5 innings. If Dice K is ever loses his fear to actually pitch to contact, he'll be one of the best pitchers in baseball, if he doesn't, the Sawx will continue to over use their bullpen every 5th day.

nyyfan4life
08-23-2008, 06:41 PM
1. Webb
2 Santana
3 Harren
4 Zambrano
5 Johnson
6 Sabathia
7 Sheets
8 Grienke
9- Liriano
10- Doc

Doc at 10 is hysterical. Especially behind the likes of Zambrano, Johnson, Sheets, Greinke and Liriano.

WSUJJ
08-24-2008, 12:08 AM
Not really

Humongo
08-24-2008, 12:12 AM
Liriano is better than Halladay? :eyebrow:

Greinke shouldn't be on there, and I'm not even sure what Johnson you're referring too. Liriano isn't even close to top 10 though at this point.

WSUJJ
08-24-2008, 07:02 PM
Yes hee iss who is number 10 then if not lirianoooo

C1Bman88
08-24-2008, 07:29 PM
Yes hee iss who is number 10 then if not lirianoooo

Lincecum deserves to be in there. Or Jake Peavy.

WSUJJ
08-24-2008, 08:01 PM
Peavy = badd

C1Bman88
08-24-2008, 08:15 PM
Peavy = badd

How so?

odiz
08-24-2008, 08:59 PM
Peavy is a top 5 starter at least.

My Top 10

Santana
Webb
Peavy
Halladay
Sabathia
Haren
Lincecum
Zambrano
Hamels
Sheets

I have to see more of Liriano before he can get on the list.

Humongo
08-24-2008, 09:15 PM
Lincecum, Peavy, Felix, Cain, Lester, IMO, all go up there before Liriano. Liriano needs to pitch a full season before we call him one of the best pitchers in baseball. As is, his stuff isn't near what it was back when he was dominating, so I wouldn't expect him to put up many seasons like 2006.

Twinke Masta
08-29-2008, 08:54 AM
Johan, he gets out of tough situations and ALWAYS keep you in the game and he throws CG's..but i would say webb as well

WSUJJ
08-30-2008, 12:22 PM
Boof Bonser is in top 3 at least?

JAYZFAN9
08-31-2008, 12:22 AM
^ lol

ShinobiNYC
08-31-2008, 02:39 AM
Peavy is a top 5 starter at least.

My Top 10

Santana
Webb
Peavy
Halladay
Sabathia
Haren
Lincecum
Zambrano
Hamels
Sheets

I have to see more of Liriano before he can get on the list.

I like your list, I would put Harden over Sheets though.

cwilson21
08-31-2008, 11:37 AM
Lincecum, Peavy, Felix, Cain, Lester, IMO, all go up there before Liriano. Liriano needs to pitch a full season before we call him one of the best pitchers in baseball. As is, his stuff isn't near what it was back when he was dominating, so I wouldn't expect him to put up many seasons like 2006.

So just because Felix and Cain have pitched full seasons of baseball you would take them over Liriano? I'm taking the guy that has dominated the entirety of his career which is Liriano.

C1Bman88
08-31-2008, 12:06 PM
So just because Felix and Cain have pitched full seasons of baseball you would take them over Liriano? I'm taking the guy that has dominated the entirety of his career which is Liriano.

Liriano has pitched a total of 191 innings in his entire Major League career. Cain has about 620 and Hernandez has 633.

You can't definitively state that Liriano's better than either because of 120 innings in 2006 and a pretty lucky 2008. He's also got mechanics that are built for failure.

I'm taking the safer and more proven Cain and Hernandez over Liriano any day.

WSUJJ
10-06-2008, 06:58 PM
Now who do u think any change their mind

WSUJJ
10-07-2008, 08:04 PM
I think Doc deservs it

BigEric
10-07-2008, 08:05 PM
Roy Halladay for now. In a few years, it will be Hamels, and call me a Homer, but I believe that Lester will be, if he isn't already.

ritz
10-07-2008, 08:11 PM
I voted for Santana and I'm sticking to my guns.

Feel free to call me a homer, but this guy has stepped up and came up BIG every time the Mets needed him too. It's kind of a moot point now, but the 2nd to last game where he pitched a CG shut-out with a torn meniscus to keep us in the wild-card race pretty much sealed the deal.

Well, the deal was already sealed with me. Just sayin'.

SidTheKid
10-07-2008, 08:27 PM
Doc Halladay.

bartoron
10-07-2008, 08:29 PM
I voted for Santana and I'm sticking to my guns.

Feel free to call me a homer, but this guy has stepped up and came up BIG every time the Mets needed him too. It's kind of a moot point now, but the 2nd to last game where he pitched a CG shut-out with a torn meniscus to keep us in the wild-card race pretty much sealed the deal.

Well, the deal was already sealed with me. Just sayin'.

Don't worry, you're not a homer. :P

Johan Santana is the best pitcher in baseball.

Kenny
10-07-2008, 08:56 PM
Just look at the last 5 years, Johan is clearly the best guy.

FC_4_life
10-07-2008, 08:56 PM
It's Lincecum, but he's not even an option! So I'd say Santana or Webb.

bartoron
10-07-2008, 09:08 PM
It's Lincecum, but he's not even an option! So I'd say Santana or Webb.

This year he was in the top 5, but he's only had one good year so far, so it's still too early to tell. I think he'll continue to be a great pitcher, but after only two seasons it's hard to be sure.

lincecum98
10-07-2008, 09:26 PM
Halladay and then Santana.

bigmac8675
10-08-2008, 05:18 AM
Brandon Webb just barely over Johan.

viktor06
10-08-2008, 03:35 PM
Santana. Although Peavy, Halladay, Oswalt and Sabathia are definitely in the same league

con_artist
10-08-2008, 07:01 PM
Beckett??? Kazmir???? Why are they on this list?

Of course Im gonna be a homer and say Halladay but I think CC is also up there

dodgersuck
10-08-2008, 08:46 PM
what about halladay, lincecum, volquez, sabathia, rodriguez, lackey, matsusaka, and oswalt...just to name a few

CaliGirlInPA
10-09-2008, 11:22 AM
Santana

Hermie13
10-09-2008, 12:22 PM
Cc

TheIceShot
10-09-2008, 12:54 PM
Halladay.

WSUJJ
10-09-2008, 03:52 PM
If Rays win World SEries Kazmir WILL be up in top15

JAYZFAN9
10-10-2008, 03:51 AM
umm ok lol

yahmez88
10-11-2008, 06:05 PM
halladay, how is he not even on the list you can argue some are better than him but he has to atleast be on this list

5+7=DYNASTY!!!
10-12-2008, 10:47 AM
Santana and Halladay are in a league of their own.

Gigantes4Life
10-13-2008, 09:15 PM
Not this year.

JAYZFAN9
10-13-2008, 10:52 PM
Not this year.

Not this year what?

MavsUCCB
10-14-2008, 09:49 AM
CC Sabathia, his audtion tape for every team in the league was with my Brewers and he proved he's the best pitcher in the game. His dominance this year to get the Brewers to the post season will earn his huge dollars in free agency. He might only be a Brewer for a half a season, but it's safe to say he will always have the respect of Brewers fan for helping to end the 26 year drought.
That said if Sheets stays healthy, the Brewers are still in the playoffs

Rochesta
10-14-2008, 09:55 PM
Peavy is a top 5 starter at least.

My Top 10

Santana
Webb
Peavy
Halladay
Sabathia
Haren
Lincecum
Zambrano
Hamels
Sheets

I have to see more of Liriano before he can get on the list.

I'm sorry to single you out specifically, but Cliff Lee did just win the AL Cy Young. I don't understand why the guy still gets no credit. I realize that he's not a likely HOFer, but you have to put him ahead of Sheets, Haren and Peavy right now at least.

johnnylee722
10-14-2008, 10:16 PM
Peavy is better than Webb...

AirJordanXVIII
10-14-2008, 11:15 PM
I like Peavy.

Twinke Masta
10-14-2008, 11:47 PM
where is halladay? this is a joke of a thread without him, not to mention having kazmir and beckett on there is also kind of a joke (they are good, but the best? )

oh yeah where the **** is cc?

Tragedy
10-15-2008, 07:00 AM
If Rays win World SEries Kazmir WILL be up in top15
Uh, what?

What does winning the World Series have to do with being the best pitcher?

Wasn't Kazmir the guy that just got crushed a week ago from the Red Sox? Isn't Kazmir the guy that saw his ERA rise from month month, where it ballooned to over 5 in September?

Kazmir has good stuff and all, but he's not a top pitcher just because his TEAM wins the World Series.

ChiFanKeith
10-23-2008, 05:55 PM
How would you like to have those guys as your starting 5. It's really close but i go with Santana

drty snchz
10-23-2008, 06:09 PM
kazmir and beckett have no business in this poll

CC and Halladay should have been in it

and the answer is still johan

Gigantes4Life
10-23-2008, 10:04 PM
Not this year what?

Santana and Halladay aren't in a league of their own.

Lincecum, Webb, Haren and Lee are right up with them.

Kenny
10-23-2008, 10:11 PM
Santana and Halladay aren't in a league of their own.

Lincecum, Webb, Haren and Lee are right up with them.

Lincecum and Lee have put up one year! Jeez, can we see some more..

MetsFan19
10-23-2008, 10:45 PM
I would say Santana Halladay and Webb are in their own little category above everyone else



Cliff lee sucked absolute balls before this season
Lincecum is a rookie...one year...we need to see consistancy
Haren?..up there with Santana and Halladay?...Webb is a lot better anyways

JHG722
10-24-2008, 12:51 AM
Halladay

jjbeard926
10-24-2008, 03:59 PM
I'd say none of these for the '08 season. Lincecum was the best pitcher this year. But out of that list Santana has been the best year after year.

Frank Costanza
10-24-2008, 04:53 PM
wheres HALLADAY? this forum has zero credibility if KAZmir gets on the list and HALLADAY is left off, badru

WSUJJ
10-26-2008, 11:17 PM
Now we have Cole Hamels and Jamie Moyer in the mix :D

METS4LIFE1988
10-27-2008, 12:01 AM
Hamels > Kazmir

asufan55
10-27-2008, 12:13 AM
i think cliff lee is the best pitcher in the major leagues right now

IBleedBlue15
10-27-2008, 12:39 AM
Cole Hamels. He's the last pitcher I've seen dominate the Dodgers since August.

Gigantes4Life
10-27-2008, 12:40 AM
Didn't Lincecum K like 12 Dodgers in the last series of the year? :)

IBleedBlue15
10-27-2008, 01:03 AM
^^ Yeah, he dominated our Triple A team. He gave up two runs to the regular line-up, then no runs to the Las Vegas 51's.

Gigantes4Life
10-27-2008, 01:59 AM
They were scared of him :cool:

Zito too :o

WSUJJ
10-27-2008, 03:49 PM
Soo who is it now stil cliff lee? Hames? Santana

A lto fo good choices.. Good thing they dont have chances and get bugged about going to Europe :D

WSUJJ
10-30-2008, 10:17 PM
Jake peavy... Where will he end up.. how will it affect this forum..

dun dun dun dun duuuuuuuuun

MJ-BULLS
01-20-2009, 02:13 PM
lincecum

WSUJJ
01-21-2009, 11:28 PM
I think Santana wins

NYY NYJ NYK
01-22-2009, 01:29 AM
I would actually go with Roy Halladay but out of that list my choice would be Santana.

WSUJJ
01-27-2009, 12:35 AM
Theres a lot of doc fans

johnnylee722
01-27-2009, 01:14 PM
I saw the name Cliff Lee somewhere and got upset... he shouldn't even be mentioned with these guys.

SidTheKid
01-27-2009, 02:02 PM
Doc Halladay.

Rylinkus
01-27-2009, 03:27 PM
Halladay

Old Sweater
01-27-2009, 03:41 PM
Roy Halladay

Kyle916
01-27-2009, 05:30 PM
Roy Halladay

Sportfan
01-27-2009, 07:44 PM
why does is kazmir here?

Sportfan
01-27-2009, 07:44 PM
out of those guys its santana

WSUJJ
01-28-2009, 08:24 PM
Everyone loves Roy

Twinke Masta
01-29-2009, 12:54 AM
Look at the poll Santana has 57 votes

COINCIDENCE?!!? I DONT THINK SO

Kyle916
01-29-2009, 01:00 AM
Look at the poll Santana has 57 votes

COINCIDENCE?!!? I DONT THINK SO

Not everybody in this forum is properly informed.

Sean McG
01-29-2009, 02:46 AM
I voted Kazmir, cause I'm a Rays fan and felt bad for him being last :cry:


Oh.. and cause I think Halladay is the best.

NASCAR Diva#3
01-29-2009, 03:08 PM
Santana

Gigantes4Life
01-29-2009, 06:45 PM
Look at the poll Santana has 57 votes

COINCIDENCE?!!? I DONT THINK SO

If I asked who was the best pitcher in baseball and put Barry Zito and Ryan Dempster as the choices, and everyone picked Dempster, would that make him the best pitcher in baseball?

ritz
01-29-2009, 06:46 PM
I'm pretty sure that post was in reference to Santana's number.

Gigantes4Life
01-29-2009, 06:49 PM
I'm pretty sure that post was in reference to Santana's number.

I know. He was trying to say that Santana is the best pitcher based on a poll by a bunch of people on the internet when the best options weren't even available, which is why I haven't voted.

k_rock923
01-29-2009, 07:03 PM
He was just noting that Santana's vote count and uniform number matched.

Gigantes4Life
01-29-2009, 07:07 PM
Look at the poll Santana has 57 votes

COINCIDENCE?!!? I DONT THINK SO

I disagree, sounds like he was trying to make some sort of point.

dodgersuck
01-29-2009, 07:22 PM
lincecum>kazmir

dx371
01-30-2009, 12:05 AM
I disagree, sounds like he was trying to make some sort of point.

Santanas jersey number is 57


I think he was just referring to that

Grecs422
01-30-2009, 06:23 PM
Your missing some good guys up there like Halladay, Lincecum

Grecs422
01-30-2009, 06:25 PM
I know. He was trying to say that Santana is the best pitcher based on a poll by a bunch of people on the internet when the best options weren't even available, which is why I haven't voted.

No he was trying to say it was funny that the amount of votes Santana had was the same as his uniform number

WSUJJ
02-01-2009, 12:28 AM
Lol ya

jollyjava
02-01-2009, 12:35 AM
Donald Brashear.

29sbuc
02-01-2009, 12:38 AM
I know. He was trying to say that Santana is the best pitcher based on a poll by a bunch of people on the internet when the best options weren't even available, which is why I haven't voted.

put up whoever you want, santana is the best. not lincecum.

Gigantes4Life
02-01-2009, 02:18 AM
put up whoever you want, santana is the best. not lincecum.

Congrats, I never said Lincecum.

Halladay is better than Santana.

cambovenzi
02-01-2009, 11:39 AM
Congrats, I never said Lincecum.

Halladay is better than Santana.

im still waiting for my explanation.
i pointed out that TRA is very flawed. didnt have santana anywheres near the best. and asked for some reasoning.
santana is significantly better at allowing less runs.

29sbuc
02-01-2009, 12:15 PM
Congrats, I never said Lincecum.

Halladay is better than Santana.

no hes not.

Benny Eggs
02-01-2009, 01:01 PM
Halladay all day..

WSUJJ
02-26-2009, 08:59 PM
Who is better Santana or Halladay?? those are the closest

Sportfan
02-26-2009, 11:04 PM
why did you bring this thread back to life :pity:

WSUJJ
02-27-2009, 10:47 AM
why not, its a fun discussion

bagwell368
02-27-2009, 11:25 AM
Halladay is better than Santana.

Nope, check the other thread. Every stat says Santana, and the fact the Halladay has at times had better competition doesn't do enough to erode the truth - that since the year Santana hit 200 IP in his career he has been better - peak, IP, DERA, ERA+, BA/OBP/SLG against, K/9 IP, BB/K, STF, you name it.

todu82
02-27-2009, 11:55 AM
Brandon Webb on that list but Roy Halladay overall.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-28-2009, 02:20 PM
CC? But you did not put him in the poll.

bartoron
02-28-2009, 10:06 PM
CC? But you did not put him in the poll.

...

Dear lord, someone get this man some sanity.

WSbluejays
03-01-2009, 05:23 PM
where is roy halladay?

shanefitzgerald
03-01-2009, 05:25 PM
santana
beckett
sabathia
kazmir
webb

JAYZFAN9
03-01-2009, 05:35 PM
^ yea brutal list homer

Gigantes4Life
03-01-2009, 06:19 PM
Nope, check the other thread. Every stat says Santana, and the fact the Halladay has at times had better competition doesn't do enough to erode the truth - that since the year Santana hit 200 IP in his career he has been better - peak, IP, DERA, ERA+, BA/OBP/SLG against, K/9 IP, BB/K, STF, you name it.

Seriously? You're talking to me about 5 years ago? I'm talking about now. I never said Halladay was better in his career, but that he's better now.

WSUJJ
03-01-2009, 11:18 PM
Beckett??? hes had an off year

WSUJJ
03-02-2009, 06:06 PM
I do agree with Santana though

cynomatic
03-02-2009, 06:19 PM
How is Doc Halladay not on this list he is a top pitcher in the game

cambovenzi
03-03-2009, 09:48 PM
How is Doc Halladay not on this list he is a top pitcher in the game

the thread was made in 08.
that tells you something.
he had arguably the best full year of his career last year.
but wasnt so good in many other years.

WSUJJ
03-06-2009, 05:43 PM
Very true

Joba Rules!!
03-06-2009, 06:21 PM
the thread was made in 08.
that tells you something.
he had arguably the best full year of his career last year.
but wasnt so good in many other years.

:speechless:

Uhh like when? His injury-plagued 2004 was his only "sub-par" year since 2000


Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
2001 24 TOR AL 5 3 17 16 1 1 0 0 105.3 97 41 37 3 25 96 1 4 432 0 1 3.16 4.62 146 1.158
2002 25 TOR AL 19 7 34 34 2 1 0 0 239.3 223 93 78 10 62 168 7 4 993 6 1 2.93 4.65 158 1.191 AS
2003 26 TOR AL 22 7 36 36 9 2 0 0 266.0 253 111 96 26 32 204 9 6 1071 1 1 3.25 4.71 145 1.071 CYA-1,AS
2004 27 TOR AL 8 8 21 21 1 1 0 0 133.0 140 66 62 13 39 95 1 2 561 1 2 4.20 4.82 115 1.346
2005 28 TOR AL 12 4 19 19 5 2 0 0 141.7 118 39 38 11 18 108 7 2 553 2 1 2.41 4.45 184 0.960 AS
2006 29 TOR AL 16 5 32 32 4 0 0 0 220.0 208 82 78 19 34 132 5 3 876 5 0 3.19 4.56 143 1.100 CYA-3,AS
2007 30 TOR AL 16 7 31 31 7 1 0 0 225.3 232 101 93 15 48 139 3 4 927 3 0 3.71 4.47 120 1.243 CYA-5
2008 31 TOR AL 20 11 34 33 9 2 0 0 246.0 220 88 76 18 39 206 12 4 987 3 0 2.78 4.27 154 1.053

cambovenzi
03-06-2009, 06:22 PM
:speechless:

Uhh like when? His injury-plagued 2004 was his only "sub-par" year since 2000


Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
2001 24 TOR AL 5 3 17 16 1 1 0 0 105.3 97 41 37 3 25 96 1 4 432 0 1 3.16 4.62 146 1.158
2002 25 TOR AL 19 7 34 34 2 1 0 0 239.3 223 93 78 10 62 168 7 4 993 6 1 2.93 4.65 158 1.191 AS
2003 26 TOR AL 22 7 36 36 9 2 0 0 266.0 253 111 96 26 32 204 9 6 1071 1 1 3.25 4.71 145 1.071 CYA-1,AS
2004 27 TOR AL 8 8 21 21 1 1 0 0 133.0 140 66 62 13 39 95 1 2 561 1 2 4.20 4.82 115 1.346
2005 28 TOR AL 12 4 19 19 5 2 0 0 141.7 118 39 38 11 18 108 7 2 553 2 1 2.41 4.45 184 0.960 AS
2006 29 TOR AL 16 5 32 32 4 0 0 0 220.0 208 82 78 19 34 132 5 3 876 5 0 3.19 4.56 143 1.100 CYA-3,AS
2007 30 TOR AL 16 7 31 31 7 1 0 0 225.3 232 101 93 15 48 139 3 4 927 3 0 3.71 4.47 120 1.243 CYA-5
2008 31 TOR AL 20 11 34 33 9 2 0 0 246.0 220 88 76 18 39 206 12 4 987 3 0 2.78 4.27 154 1.053
i was talking relatively to other great pitchers like santana.
ofcoure he was very very good in general.

santana had a sub 3 ERA 4 of the last 5 years.
RH was up near 4 in 07..(3.71)
that is just one year ago.

Joba Rules!!
03-06-2009, 06:45 PM
i was talking relatively to other great pitchers like santana.
ofcoure he was very very good in general.

santana had a sub 3 ERA 4 of the last 5 years.
RH was up near 4 in 07..(3.71)
that is just one year ago.

Yet his ERA+ was only ten points above Halladay's because...drumroll please...he pitches in the AL East.

Also in 2007, his numbers are kind of skewed due to one bad month (8.31 ERA in May) That may be looking too much into it, but whatever.

Besides that 2007, Halladay has been up there with the elite pitchers. Probably only second to Santana even without his 2008 campaign.

The only reason I say this is because it was a frickin' disgrace that he was left off the poll, when Scott Kazmir was on it.

WSUJJ
03-06-2009, 11:20 PM
Just because hollday pitches in East doesnt mean his better

JAYZFAN9
03-07-2009, 12:50 AM
^ Get a clue ... seriously

Manatoo
03-10-2009, 10:39 AM
Santana
Halladay
Webb
Peavy

WSUJJ
03-10-2009, 08:41 PM
^ i Like it

Joba Rules!!
03-10-2009, 09:11 PM
Just because hollday pitches in East doesnt mean his better

When did I say that? It just means the non-league adjusted numbers are skewed.

kmenace09
03-10-2009, 11:14 PM
I like Brandon Webb, as the overall best pitcher in the entire league. He's just been so consistent over the past three years. The guy has great stuff. I think he'll have another stellar season in '09.

Umm, where is Lincecum in this conversation??? I think Tiny Tim deserves some love too, the guy was lights out last year. He was as dominant as any pitcher I've seen.

cambovenzi
03-10-2009, 11:15 PM
I like Brandon Webb, as the overall best pitcher in the entire league. He's just been so consistent over the past three years. The guy has great stuff. I think he'll have another stellar season in '09.

Umm, where is Lincecum in this conversation??? I think Tiny Tim deserves some love too, the guy was lights out last year. He was as dominant as any pitcher I've seen.

1. thread was made last year.
2. he only has one great year under his belt.

kmenace09
03-10-2009, 11:24 PM
1. Doesn't Matter.
2. Doesn't Matter.

Lincecum trounced the Cy-Young voting in 2008. He was an absolute stud. He has the filthiest stuff in all of baseball. He has an upper-90s fastball, and has that dominating changeup to counter it...led the entire league in strikeouts, at 24 years of age. I would say it's fair to count him as one of baseball's elite.

ShinobiNYC
03-11-2009, 01:12 AM
1. Doesn't Matter.
2. Doesn't Matter.

Lincecum trounced the Cy-Young voting in 2008. He was an absolute stud. He has the filthiest stuff in all of baseball. He has an upper-90s fastball, and has that dominating changeup to counter it...led the entire league in strikeouts, at 24 years of age. I would say it's fair to count him as one of baseball's elite.

Trounced? IMO he shouldn't have won in 2008.

NoQuarter
03-22-2009, 10:53 PM
Santana

NoQuarter
03-22-2009, 11:17 PM
1. Doesn't Matter.
2. Doesn't Matter.

Lincecum trounced the Cy-Young voting in 2008. He was an absolute stud. He has the filthiest stuff in all of baseball. He has an upper-90s fastball, and has that dominating changeup to counter it...led the entire league in strikeouts, at 24 years of age. I would say it's fair to count him as one of baseball's elite.


Johan pitched more innings with a lower ERA, in a pennant race, with a torn meniscus and against more potent offenses. Lincecum came to the big city once vs the Mets and crapped himself, saying later something to the effect that he was unprepared. Sheesh. Then he went back to the weak hitting NL West and mowed em down in games that didn't matter.

Runs Scored

Phil 799 Col 747
Atl 770 Ari 720
Fla 753 LA 700
Wsn 641 SD 637


The aggregate Park Factor for the NL East was 1.0054 and the NL West was .9888, basically neutral.

The kid will be great going forward and I would love to have him on my team but last year's voting was a joke. Santana probably got screwed over by his pen blowing so many of his leads, which of course shouldn't be part of the equation.

YankeePride
03-23-2009, 03:41 AM
Santana Sabathia Halladay Webb and Lincecum would be a top 5. Cole Hamels almost there.

WSUJJ
04-22-2009, 09:33 PM
how about this year so far?? DOC FOR SURE

ShinobiNYC
04-22-2009, 09:42 PM
how about this year so far?? DOC FOR SURE

This year so far:


Santana: 996 ERA+

Halladay: 128 ERA+


But It's wayyyyyyyyyyyy too early in the season anyways, Greinke is the CY winner so far in the AL, as great Zach has been it just shows how early it is.

Let's see who is leading at the ASB.

MetsFan28
04-22-2009, 10:53 PM
Johan is only leading the league in strikeouts and ERA.

ClipperFan489
04-23-2009, 11:06 PM
Chad Billingsley anyone?

4-0, 26 ks, 9 bbs, 2.05 ERA, .87 WHIP

Obviously its a little early, but he has only improved every year he has been in the league.

GoJays32
04-24-2009, 12:50 AM
This year so far:


Santana: 996 ERA+

Halladay: 128 ERA+


But It's wayyyyyyyyyyyy too early in the season anyways, Greinke is the CY winner so far in the AL, as great Zach has been it just shows how early it is.

Let's see who is leading at the ASB.

Doc is the MLB's Ironman. When he's on, he's on, and no one can touch him.

ShinobiNYC
04-24-2009, 03:02 AM
Doc is the MLB's Ironman. When he's on, he's on, and no one can touch him.

Santana is better IMO, here is where we disagree.

WSUJJ
04-30-2009, 10:48 PM
Santana is better IMO, here is where we disagree.

Explain to me why?

JAYZFAN9
05-01-2009, 03:07 AM
^ why bother? its been done and re done over and over.. id say the two are about neck and neck and are in a class of their own at the top of the league

Doc/Santana





everyone else

Jay Bills
05-01-2009, 04:09 PM
Doc Halladay is the best pitcher in the majors

Gigantes4Life
05-01-2009, 05:47 PM
Lincecum is the best pitcher in the majors :)

Matt-the-great
05-04-2009, 03:49 AM
this season Dan Haren has been the best (also has terrible run support...he should be 6-0)

bagwell368
05-06-2009, 02:37 PM
1. Doesn't Matter.
2. Doesn't Matter.

Lincecum trounced the Cy-Young voting in 2008. He was an absolute stud. He has the filthiest stuff in all of baseball. He has an upper-90s fastball, and has that dominating changeup to counter it...led the entire league in strikeouts, at 24 years of age. I would say it's fair to count him as one of baseball's elite.

A guy that has been around 5+ years at a high level can be spoken about as a contender. If you want talk about guys with less then 5 years - fine.

His arm whip is so extreme that I personally do not believe he will make it to 5 years throwing 200+ IP well.

bagwell368
05-06-2009, 02:41 PM
Doc is the MLB's Ironman. When he's on, he's on, and no one can touch him.

You could say the same about Wakefield. Santana has done more to date then "doc" - it's a fact. dERA, ERA+, Cy Young shares, IP per year (yeah, doc is such an iron man that since Santana made it as a full time SP, he's got more IP per season then "doc".

Doc is probably #2, and that's very respectable. He is a horse, but Santana is BMW M5.

tuck25
05-06-2009, 03:01 PM
Roy Halladay is better than all those pitchers. He is the most consistent, plays in the toughest division in the MLB.

You are correct but Doc will never get the credit if he isn`t pitching for an American Team, you guys are so brain washed its actually funny. Kasmir as a pick and not Doc you have to be kidding. Doc with a 1 CY (should have last year also, IMO!!! but still finished second behind, Cliff Who) and will again be on top this year and he isn`t even a pick, wake up. Anyway it`s between Doc and Santana for the best pitcher in the MLB counting the past, right now it`s Zack Greinke can`t argue that. IMO

ShinobiNYC
05-06-2009, 03:35 PM
Halladay is number 2 behind Santana...You can go either way with those 2.

bagwell368
05-06-2009, 09:55 PM
You are correct but Doc will never get the credit if he isn`t pitching for an American Team, you guys are so brain washed its actually funny. Kasmir as a pick and not Doc you have to be kidding. Doc with a 1 CY (should have last year also, IMO!!! but still finished second behind, Cliff Who) and will again be on top this year and he isn`t even a pick, wake up. Anyway it`s between Doc and Santana for the best pitcher in the MLB counting the past, right now it`s Zack Greinke can`t argue that. IMO

Doc should get extra credit for pitching for Toronto in the AL East, and it helps his cause, but not enough IMO.

I didn't make this list and Kazmir wouldn't be on mine.

Make a poll of best 5 SP since the start of '04, include doc and Santana. I'll rip off some of my older posts for a stat based answer. All stats single years since 2004 inclusive.

Santana ERA+ 182, 155, 161, 130, 166, 392
Halliday ERA+ 115, 184, 143, 120, 154, 127

Santana dERA 2.56, 3.18, 3.11, 3.77, 3.05, 1.71
Halliday dERA 4.56, 2.76, 3.35, 4.43, 3.87, 4.31

Santana RAA 57, 37, 42, 59, 77, 15
Halliday RAA -1, 32, 30, 02, 21, 01

Since 2004 when Santana became a full time SP, he has 5/6 in ERA+ and dERA (defense removed ERA - a rather handy advantage in that, look again)

Then there is RAA - runs saved over average pitcher in the same period:

Halliday has 85 runs saved in 1010 IP (.084 runs saved per IP)
Santana has 280 runs saved in 1179.1 IP (.237 runs saved per IP)

Now that is just a wipe out - .35 of the runs saved vs average as Santana - for shame!

KOH423
05-13-2009, 08:22 PM
Halladay is the best pitcher in the league, when healthy he is consistent and his numbers don't lie

nyyankees09
05-13-2009, 10:06 PM
now zack greinke, in general johan or halladay.. probly hallday

yanksknicksgmen
05-14-2009, 11:28 PM
wheres zack greinke at?

nyyankees09
05-15-2009, 12:00 AM
...