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leavemealone
06-26-2008, 04:44 PM
Has a familiar ring to it, doesn't it?

Big congrats out to Shap.

EdTheRevelator
06-26-2008, 07:23 PM
Has a familiar ring to it, doesn't it?

Big congrats out to Shap.

That's awfully harsh. While I agree he's not blameless, at the same time, if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have been in the position to have high expectations to begin with.

Injuries ****ed this team over. Even with the underachieving, if players weren't hurt, we could have made a trade and got reinforcements.

Jpripper88
06-26-2008, 07:45 PM
That's awfully harsh. While I agree he's not blameless, at the same time, if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have been in the position to have high expectations to begin with.

Injuries ****ed this team over. Even with the underachieving, if players weren't hurt, we could have made a trade and got reinforcements.

I still don't think (even if we were in the thick of things) that Shapiro would have made a real significant trade. Part of the reason for that is because he has held onto some of our prospects far too long already and the other reason is because he just is too afraid to trade away young controllable players.

EdTheRevelator
06-26-2008, 08:17 PM
I still don't think (even if we were in the thick of things) that Shapiro would have made a real significant trade. Part of the reason for that is because he has held onto some of our prospects far too long already and the other reason is because he just is too afraid to trade away young controllable players.

That's not his fault. That's the ownership's fault.

IndiansFan337
06-27-2008, 01:00 AM
That's awfully harsh. While I agree he's not blameless, at the same time, if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have been in the position to have high expectations to begin with.

Injuries ****ed this team over. Even with the underachieving, if players weren't hurt, we could have made a trade and got reinforcements.
Ageed that he created the high expectations, so he deserves credit for that. The high expectations are due to Shapiro, so he deserves credit for that.

The lack of moves made in the past 1-2 years also is due to Shapiro, so he deserves the ridicule for that.

Injuries affected us tremendously, but they are not the sole reason for this ridiculous performance by our team. I think Hafner was hurt much earlier than he let on. And that hurt us a lot. Martinez was hurt all year after the Opening game....And that affected us until he finally went to the DL....And JW has had 2 seperate injuries that have resulted in him being out for he year.....And of course Miller has his usual fluke injury that you've never heard of before that will cause him to miss the season....So Shapiro can't ba faulted for all of that....Although he could have improved the team last winter, surely knowing that this team was not going to have the same luck, in terms of health, he should have made some upgrades.

Also, I don't blame him at all for the bullpen miscues this season, although they could have easily upgraded the closer position with either Valverde, Lidge, or someone else....


I still don't think (even if we were in the thick of things) that Shapiro would have made a real significant trade. Part of the reason for that is because he has held onto some of our prospects far too long already and the other reason is because he just is too afraid to trade away young controllable players.
I agree he is too afraid to trade away controllable players.


That's not his fault. That's the ownership's fault.
No, it is not. Ownership does not control management or else they wouldn't have a GM.

DKtheLegend
06-27-2008, 03:31 PM
People continue to make emotional posts way too early in the season. The season isn't even half over, the Tribe can't play any worse, not to mention Hafner, Martinez and Carmona are still out and yet the Tribe remains only 7 1/2 back. Lets not deal out criticism quite yet guys, this seasons not over. The Tribe could EASILY still win their division and hed off to the playoffs. Shapiro is definitely not perfect, but he does understand the importance of staying the course and not making emotional decisions.

Tragedy
06-27-2008, 04:07 PM
People continue to make emotional posts way too early in the season. The season isn't even half over,
Just to clarify, the season is exactly half over right now.

DKtheLegend
06-27-2008, 04:40 PM
Just to clarify, the season is exactly half over right now.

Thanks for clarifying that Tradegy! :clap: It can be done, how many games did the Mets drop in the last two weeks of the season last year?

Jpripper88
06-27-2008, 09:25 PM
That's not his fault. That's the ownership's fault.

Oh, wrong.

IndiansFan337
06-27-2008, 10:25 PM
Thanks for clarifying that Tradegy! :clap: It can be done, how many games did the Mets drop in the last two weeks of the season last year?

We can't count on 3-4 teams ahead of us all falling apart. So we need to do our part & start winning some games if we want to have any hope of gaining ground.

NickChrisless
06-28-2008, 03:39 AM
Yikes, I just vomited all over myself. Cleveland fans are really pointing the finger at Shapiro? Seriously?

The only GM in Cleveland that should be in question would be across the plaza, and he has a couple large summers to prove himself.

Come on though guys, seriously ... Shapiro is the one who put the players that we love in place. He's taken a crappy payroll and turned it into something great. Hafner was likely on roids, unless you want to play the "2 year slump" card (which I wish I had in high school before everyone realized I wasn't really that skilled).

Shapiro has:
- Traded Ben Broussard for Choo
- Traded Eduardo Perez for Asdrubal
- Made one of the best trades in baseball to land Grady/Lee
- Phillips was an issue with Wedge, not as much Shapiro
- Locked up all the core players over the course of a few years to long-term deals (tough to do on such a low payroll).

No one would've predicted Marte to fall off the way he has, everyone was raving about that kid -- even then, I'd rather have Shoppach than Coco Crisp whom everyone knew wouldn't hit 20 HR again. And the Kouz for Barfield trade looked good at the time as we evaluated where our biggest need was at that point and time.

Don't act like the guy hasn't explored options either. We could've possibly traded Franklin and Lee in the off-season for Alex Rios (who is doing terrible and is raking in much higher $). When we needed a closer, Borowski was the last guy on the market we went after (even after Foulke), but guys signed elsewhere for bigger $ that we couldn't offer. Hoffman didn't want to leave town, BJ Ryan saw dollar signs.

Regardless, BJ Ryan got injured as well ... injuries happen, and bullpens change from year to year which is why relievers are the most often shipped position at the deadline. Before Westbrook goes down he was stellar, Carmona was coming off a freakish year, and CC started slow. Take Lee, CC, Carmona, and Westbrook healthy ... with Byrd as off and on. Now we're not even talking Laffey (who has done well with low run support). The bullpen couldn't really be prevented, but we went for the affordable solution for a new closer with Kobayashi, and no one would've ever convinced me that Betancourt wasn't a future closer. Maybe we could've way over-spent for Eric Gagne though... maybe that's why we're all upset.

It's not the GM, I could go on and on, and Shapiro is admired by both leagues as the ultimate GM for the hand he's been dealt. Don't be a New York fan that boos at every draft and turn on players and staff the second they slump or have something not go their way. We're suppose to be the best fans because we're lower market yet possess a threat.

You don't like us? Follow the Sox or Tigers... same division, top 10 payroll. Regardless of how many flaws we've had, we're still 7.5 back, and it's creeping up on July. As bad as things have gone, to be only 7.5 back does not at all warrant GM bashing.

So there's my first PSD Forum rant ... those who made it all the way through, I commend you. War the real Cleveland fans who stick it out longer than 3 months and a some bad luck.

DKtheLegend
06-28-2008, 12:10 PM
We can't count on 3-4 teams ahead of us all falling apart. So we need to do our part & start winning some games if we want to have any hope of gaining ground.

Absolutely, I agree. However, I feel that none of those teams are better than we are (maybe I'm biased). If we play the way we are capable of in the second half we will be on top at the end of the year.

DKtheLegend
06-28-2008, 12:27 PM
The White Sox should be the team a little concerned here. They had a chance (and probably should have) put us down by 15+ games right now but they haven't. Ozzy knows that they will have to elevate their play just to maintain a lead in the Central.

IndiansFan337
06-29-2008, 12:33 PM
Absolutely, I agree. However, I feel that none of those teams are better than we are (maybe I'm biased). If we play the way we are capable of in the second half we will be on top at the end of the year.

I thought that before the injuries hit...But I am not so sure without Carmona, Hafner, Martinez, Barfield, etc.

duncky1188
06-29-2008, 10:22 PM
We totally suck right now and I have come to realize that. I want us to do better but I cant change the fact we suck.

EdTheRevelator
06-30-2008, 12:18 AM
No, it is not. Ownership does not control management or else they wouldn't have a GM.


Oh, wrong.

Not wrong. Ownership has put a restriction on what he can spend, thus limiting his pool of available players. A higher value is placed on players who remain under club control for longer. Player A may be better and exactly what the team needs, but Player B is under club control for 2 more years - Shapiro is forced to put a premium on that sort of thing.

The Indians have one of the lowest payrolls in the league. It's not impossible for a small market, low payroll team to win in this league. But being one of those teams means that there is no margin for error. Shapiro erred by standing pat. He's handcuffed though because he isn't given the resources to fix it. Do you think the Yankees would be discussing dealing C.C. if they were in this position?

I'm not one of those fans that always blames the Dolans. But let's face facts - they don't spend money, and that means Shapiro can't make a mistake, which isn't fair.

Jpripper88
06-30-2008, 01:38 AM
Not wrong. Ownership has put a restriction on what he can spend, thus limiting his pool of available players. A higher value is placed on players who remain under club control for longer. Player A may be better and exactly what the team needs, but Player B is under club control for 2 more years - Shapiro is forced to put a premium on that sort of thing.

The Indians have one of the lowest payrolls in the league. It's not impossible for a small market, low payroll team to win in this league. But being one of those teams means that there is no margin for error. Shapiro erred by standing pat. He's handcuffed though because he isn't given the resources to fix it. Do you think the Yankees would be discussing dealing C.C. if they were in this position?

I'm not one of those fans that always blames the Dolans. But let's face facts - they don't spend money, and that means Shapiro can't make a mistake, which isn't fair.

Listen baseball is a business and the Indians cannot spend a lot of money because they can't sell out games. The 90's were a perfect storm where baseball was coming back, the Indians had a new park, and they were able to pair a good group of talented young players with veterans. This lead to an unimaginable sell out record and inflated payrolls. Once that wore off it was never going to be like that again.

Just by comparing the Yankees to the Indians you show that you are not thinking rationally. The Indians will never be close to the Yankees in payroll possibility and so the teams have to be managed much differently. The Yankees can spend $200 million and still make a lot more money for Steinbrenner than Dolan can make if the Indians spend $50 million. Every team has a restriction on what can be spent and it is basically the same for every team. Not following? Well they basically take a their avg total revenue over a period of time (or do that plus estimate any projected increases and decreases) and subtract a small profit from that and then they can spend what is left over. That is what Dolan does. If he owned the Red Sox or Yankees he would be spending the same kind of money their current owners are because he would be able to generate the same revenue.

I think it sucks that the Indians can't spend more money, but it just isn't in the cards. They do not have a nation wide appeal, so they don't draw big road crowds, sell a lot of jerseys or make a ton of money off of media deals. At home they don't draw fans like they used to. Even last year when the team was one of the best in baseball the fans still were not really coming out like they do for other top teams.

You cannot expect Dolan to just spew money and watch it go down the drain. The Indians are basically in the same boat as 2/3 of the ML and this year actually are right in the middle of the pack in regards to payroll and Dolan has shown the willingness to give CC a big raise (although below Market Value). The Brewers are doing much better with a similar payroll. The Rangers, Diamondbacks, Twins and A's are all better with much lower payrolls. The Rays have come up strong with a payroll that is 1/2 of the Indians this year. Then you have the Marlins who have had more success over the last decade and are having more even this year, with a payroll that is barely more than a 1/4 of the Indians'.

bhs120
06-30-2008, 08:06 AM
As long as David Dellucci Sal Fasano Jorge Valendia Paul TERD are in the lineup don't expect the indians to go anywhere but down. This is just terrible. Trade Byrd away NOW he is garbage and I would take anything for him. Can we really rely on Hafner coming back strong? I'd say he is probably done for the year it's just no one is telling us.

EdTheRevelator
06-30-2008, 12:09 PM
Listen baseball is a business and the Indians cannot spend a lot of money because they can't sell out games. The 90's were a perfect storm where baseball was coming back, the Indians had a new park, and they were able to pair a good group of talented young players with veterans. This lead to an unimaginable sell out record and inflated payrolls. Once that wore off it was never going to be like that again.

Just by comparing the Yankees to the Indians you show that you are not thinking rationally. The Indians will never be close to the Yankees in payroll possibility and so the teams have to be managed much differently. The Yankees can spend $200 million and still make a lot more money for Steinbrenner than Dolan can make if the Indians spend $50 million. Every team has a restriction on what can be spent and it is basically the same for every team. Not following? Well they basically take a their avg total revenue over a period of time (or do that plus estimate any projected increases and decreases) and subtract a small profit from that and then they can spend what is left over. That is what Dolan does. If he owned the Red Sox or Yankees he would be spending the same kind of money their current owners are because he would be able to generate the same revenue.

I think it sucks that the Indians can't spend more money, but it just isn't in the cards. They do not have a nation wide appeal, so they don't draw big road crowds, sell a lot of jerseys or make a ton of money off of media deals. At home they don't draw fans like they used to. Even last year when the team was one of the best in baseball the fans still were not really coming out like they do for other top teams.

You cannot expect Dolan to just spew money and watch it go down the drain. The Indians are basically in the same boat as 2/3 of the ML and this year actually are right in the middle of the pack in regards to payroll and Dolan has shown the willingness to give CC a big raise (although below Market Value). The Brewers are doing much better with a similar payroll. The Rangers, Diamondbacks, Twins and A's are all better with much lower payrolls. The Rays have come up strong with a payroll that is 1/2 of the Indians this year. Then you have the Marlins who have had more success over the last decade and are having more even this year, with a payroll that is barely more than a 1/4 of the Indians'.

I never said you can't win without a low payroll. In fact, as you'll see below, I specifically said you could. (although I was going off last year's payroll list when we were like 23rd or something - we have moved up, as you stated)

Secondly, I understand the Dolans can only spend what they make. I didn't need a finance lesson. But you seemed to get so upset by my mentioning the Yankees that missed the point of my post. Here it is again:



The Indians have one of the lowest payrolls in the league. It's not impossible for a small market, low payroll team to win in this league. But being one of those teams means that there is no margin for error.

We can't cover up our mistakes with money because we are a small market team. This is a fact. So we have to take our lumps and deal with it, rather than correct them by making trades for high-priced players or signing FAs. Shapiro's not blameless. But let's understand the restrictions placed on him.

Jpripper88
06-30-2008, 01:10 PM
I never said you can't win without a low payroll. In fact, as you'll see below, I specifically said you could. (although I was going off last year's payroll list when we were like 23rd or something - we have moved up, as you stated)

Secondly, I understand the Dolans can only spend what they make. I didn't need a finance lesson. But you seemed to get so upset by my mentioning the Yankees that missed the point of my post. Here it is again:


We can't cover up our mistakes with money because we are a small market team. This is a fact. So we have to take our lumps and deal with it, rather than correct them by making trades for high-priced players or signing FAs. Shapiro's not blameless. But let's understand the restrictions placed on him.

Sorry if I seemed upset, I wasn't. I was just saying that it is silly to include them or the other top revenue teams and what they are able to finance compared to the Indians because the differences are too big.

Also, I understand that you weren't saying that teams with a low payroll can't win, but my point was the fact that many others are (and some like the A's and Twins have been much better and consistent lately) and if the Indians are not then that falls on Shapiro and not Dolan. If others can win with as little or less then there is no reason to not expect the same of Shapiro. I like Shapiro a lot and think he is a really smart guy and a great person, but at the same time I think he has become much to cautious to make deals. The Twins and As, who I mentioned above, have both been so good because they realize when it is time to deal their prospects and their top players and get the best value on both ends. Shapiro ended up making a great trade in the Colon deal, but that was a very special situation that overly tipped the deal towards Cleveland. He made another very good deal to get Cabrera, but other than that there isn't much to go on. I need to see something with a CC deal and some offseason moves or I think there needs to be a change.

erich72
06-30-2008, 09:03 PM
who would take Byrd?

IndiansFan337
07-01-2008, 12:21 PM
who would take Byrd?

Someone that needs a 5th starter.

Byrd is hit or miss. And very streaky. So he needs to have another one of his hot streaks if we want his value to increase a bit before being dealt away.

erich72
07-01-2008, 07:19 PM
gotcha, so what you're saying is we ain't getting a thing for him if he is traded. My friend, I think the best return we can hope for is a cry of desperation from an AL club willing to trade a HiA RP

IndiansFan337
07-01-2008, 11:19 PM
gotcha, so what you're saying is we ain't getting a thing for him if he is traded. My friend, I think the best return we can hope for is a cry of desperation from an AL club willing to trade a HiA RP

Honestly, I think Byrd is more likely to get dealt to a desperate NL ballclub. The NL teams need SP depth moreso than the AL contenders. Byrd isn't an upgrade in the rotation for Boston, Anaheim, Oakland, TB, ChiSox, or Minnesota. Maybe for the NYY with the injuries taking their toll on them.

In the NL he could shore up a rotation in St. Louis, Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Florida, Houston, & possibly LA or NYM.

erich72
07-01-2008, 11:30 PM
Wherever he goes they better have it set at 475' in the gaps with speedy OF'ers. Byrd has been throwing meatballs the pas month.

duncky1188
07-01-2008, 11:32 PM
We are horrible. I will always watch intently but god we suck.

erich72
07-01-2008, 11:41 PM
It's a train wreck .... it's horrific but you gotta look.

bigalow80
07-02-2008, 12:34 AM
the indians need something positive...they seem lifeless and just go about their business with no real passion like they had last year. yes, small market teams can win for two reasons: one, they have blown up their teams so many times they continually get good prospects (one good year for every 2-3 bad) and two, all the players are kids who are trying to make it in mlb. they hustle, play small ball, do whatever it takes to stay up in the show. i think cleveland has lost that feeling. I believe a trade is in order but not with c.c. they should look to ship byrd, delluci, peralta, guitierez and garko for whatever they can get. bring up asdrubal and lofgren let vmart and shoppach switch at first/catch, let choo, sizemore, and fransico be your everyday outfield and send hafner to the dl for the year. then re-sign c.c. to show they still want to compete for years to come.

Jpripper88
07-02-2008, 12:40 AM
the indians need something positive...they seem lifeless and just go about their business with no real passion like they had last year. yes, small market teams can win for two reasons: one, they have blown up their teams so many times they continually get good prospects (one good year for every 2-3 bad) and two, all the players are kids who are trying to make it in mlb. they hustle, play small ball, do whatever it takes to stay up in the show. i think cleveland has lost that feeling. I believe a trade is in order but not with c.c. they should look to ship byrd, delluci, peralta, guitierez and garko for whatever they can get. bring up asdrubal and lofgren let vmart and shoppach switch at first/catch, let choo, sizemore, and fransico be your everyday outfield and send hafner to the dl for the year. then re-sign c.c. to show they still want to compete for years to come.

Lofgren got sent to extended spring basically because he could not pitch in A, AA, or AAA and you want to bring him the majors? I don't think that makes sense.

The Indians don't need to limp between contending and rebuilding. You either trade Sabathia now and rebuild, lose him and just be a bad team next year with no real top prospects ready, or re-sign him and keep every together and pray that this was just an aberration and that the team will bounce back and win 90+ games next year.

IndiansFan337
07-02-2008, 08:39 AM
the indians need something positive...they seem lifeless and just go about their business with no real passion like they had last year. yes, small market teams can win for two reasons: one, they have blown up their teams so many times they continually get good prospects (one good year for every 2-3 bad) and two, all the players are kids who are trying to make it in mlb. they hustle, play small ball, do whatever it takes to stay up in the show. i think cleveland has lost that feeling. I believe a trade is in order but not with c.c. they should look to ship byrd, delluci, peralta, guitierez and garko for whatever they can get. bring up asdrubal and lofgren let vmart and shoppach switch at first/catch, let choo, sizemore, and fransico be your everyday outfield and send hafner to the dl for the year. then re-sign c.c. to show they still want to compete for years to come.

None of the guys you listed has hardly any trade value.

And Lofgren is not coming to the majors, he's terrible. I saw last month that he had been demoted from AAA to AA because he was pitching so poorly.

bhs120
07-02-2008, 12:14 PM
Joe Blow doing his thing as usual. The Indians are TERRIBLE right now.. the only bright spot for the team this season has been there My Wish segment on Sportscenter

Jpripper88
07-03-2008, 12:31 AM
Joe Blow doing his thing as usual. The Indians are TERRIBLE right now.. the only bright spot for the team this season has been there My Wish segment on Sportscenter

As sad as that is, it is true.

leavemealone
08-12-2008, 11:24 PM
Out of the Cellar !!!! :clap: (Where's that picture of Roy Hobbs...?)

cle12152433
08-13-2008, 12:23 AM
Ben Francisco? Kelly Shoppach? Juan Rincon *cough* *hack*..I mean...uh...ya...Cliff Lee...

At least we know things....

We have a starting LF, C, and potential 20-game Cy Young winner

If anything, at least we are doing better than the Reds : )

EdTheRevelator
08-14-2008, 07:51 PM
Ben Francisco? Kelly Shoppach? Juan Rincon *cough* *hack*..I mean...uh...ya...Cliff Lee...

At least we know things....

We have a starting LF, C, and potential 20-game Cy Young winner

If anything, at least we are doing better than the Reds : )

Fransicio is marginal as a starter, at best. But Shoppach has proved me wrong (so far).

This team has a lot of holes.

cle12152433
08-14-2008, 08:17 PM
you dont think he can become an everyday starter?

cle12152433
08-15-2008, 01:24 AM
If he can work on that average, I believe Wedge will keep him in the starting lineup.

Jpripper88
08-15-2008, 02:10 AM
Out of the Cellar !!!! :clap: (Where's that picture of Roy Hobbs...?)

Yeah that sucks. I know picks aren't the same in baseball, but we gain nothing by winning now. I would rather get a high pick and a better chance at a really good prospect.