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jdiddy24
06-16-2008, 06:35 PM
ESPN's Buster Only reports will be available and he is under contract through 2009 season.... we will have a lot of money available.... should we go after him regardless of where we are in the race?... His stock is down and he is a solid LH pitcher with Ace potential. Also what do you think it will take to get him?

tomno00
06-16-2008, 06:50 PM
love to have him but the braves would never do it b/c it would deplete our farm system,, we have to many wholes on our team to just trade away the farm for one player

jdiddy24
06-16-2008, 06:54 PM
love to have him but the braves would never do it b/c it would deplete our farm system,, we have to many wholes on our team to just trade away the farm for one player

not really... the Orioles traded him for Adam Jones and George Sherill and 2 more specs.... how about the Mariners take a package of Brandon Jones, Brent Lillibridge, Chuck James, and one more spec or player (Diaz, Prado, etc)

Saltyfan
06-16-2008, 06:56 PM
With his stock down. I would say
Brandon Jones
Eric Campbell
Gorkys Hernandez
and at least one more.

Saltyfan
06-16-2008, 06:57 PM
not really... the Orioles traded him for Adam Jones and George Sherill and 2 more specs.... how about the Mariners take a package of Brandon Jones, Brent Lillibridge, Chuck James, and one more spec or player (Diaz, Prado, etc)

That would be nice. Lillibridge isn't that much of a need with Yunel. I would love that. I say that would be nice.

THE_FLASH_21
06-16-2008, 07:11 PM
WOW how everythng can change!!!! Bedard was the best lefty up there with Johan.... Now he's on the trading block??? WOW!!!!!!

How about Lilly,Brandon, and one of our young arms.... They won't take Chuckie!!!! and maybe Prado!

jstwannawin
06-16-2008, 07:12 PM
i dont think we have to give up much since they didnt if they can get a good deal without losing alot im all for it

Saltyfan
06-16-2008, 07:18 PM
I am down. But no JoJo, JJ, or Morton. Next years starting 5
Hudson
Bedard
JJ
JoJo
Morton
that would be so nice.

Bravesman11
06-16-2008, 07:21 PM
The Mariners aren't going to give up on him so easily first of all.

They gave up Adam Jones (Orioles starting center fielder), George Sherrill (Their best reliever, closer, and second in Major League Baseball in saves (22)) , and three other prospects (Chris Tillman, Kam Mickolio, and Tony Butler)

This is just like our situation with Mark Teixeira (except they have a chance to resign him), they gave up a whole bunch of prospects to acquire him and if they traded him now, they wouldn't get his full value, so why do it?

But a package of Brandon Jones (decent left fielder at best), Brent Lillibridge (turning out to be a bust), Chuck James (bust), and Martin Prado (backup) wouldn't be even close.

Here's a package they'd actually look at-

Kelly Johnson
Jason Heyward
Brett Devall

Seems a bit much for one player, doesn't it?

Saltyfan
06-16-2008, 07:26 PM
I can see JJ and Devall. No way on Heyward. Wouldn't happen

Bravesman11
06-16-2008, 07:27 PM
I can see JJ and Devall. No way on Heyward. Wouldn't happen

And that's why Erik Bedard is not going to happen. We wouldn't have the money to pay him anyway.

BRAVE KID
06-16-2008, 07:27 PM
The Mariners aren't going to give up on him so easily first of all.

They gave up Adam Jones (Orioles starting center fielder), George Sherrill (Their best reliever, closer, and second in Major League Baseball in saves (22)) , and three other prospects (Chris Tillman, Kam Mickolio, and Tony Butler)

This is just like our situation with Mark Teixeira (except they have a chance to resign him), they gave up a whole bunch of prospects to acquire him and if they traded him now, they wouldn't get his full value, so why do it?

But a package of Brandon Jones (decent left fielder at best), Brent Lillibridge (turning out to be a bust), Chuck James (bust), and Martin Prado (backup) wouldn't be even close.

Here's a package they'd actually look at-

Kelly Johnson
Jason Heyward
Brett Devall

Seems a bit much for one player, doesn't it?
you are right that the previous packages would be nowhere near in getting a guy like bedard however, that package they would definately look at, but no way in hell would we do it.

Saltyfan
06-16-2008, 07:28 PM
And just cause he is starting CF doesn't mean he great. Heyward is going to be great.

Saltyfan
06-16-2008, 07:29 PM
But I agree we are dreaming if we could get him for next to nothing.

Bravesman11
06-16-2008, 07:37 PM
And just cause he is starting CF doesn't mean he great. Heyward is going to be great.

Yeah, he is pretty good. I never said he was great, but he's better than all of the prospects you threw out. Take a look at his 2007 AAA stats in Tacoma-

.314 batting average

.382 OBP

25 Home Runs

84 RBI's

8 Stolen Bases

Saltyfan
06-16-2008, 07:41 PM
Well here sto dreaming we can get him without losing our farm like we did with Tex.

Bravesman11
06-16-2008, 07:49 PM
Well here sto dreaming we can get him without losing our farm like we did with Tex.

I'm not quite sure what that means, but I assume it's something to the gist of this?

"Well here, stop dreaming we can get him without losing our farm like we did with Tex."

I don't recall dreaming of acquiring him. I believe I was the one who pulled you guys down from cloud nine.

jdiddy24
06-16-2008, 08:09 PM
The Mariners aren't going to give up on him so easily first of all.

They gave up Adam Jones (Orioles starting center fielder), George Sherrill (Their best reliever, closer, and second in Major League Baseball in saves (22)) , and three other prospects (Chris Tillman, Kam Mickolio, and Tony Butler)


Why wouldnt they trade him.... they are 20 games below .500, he has struggled and been hurt all season, and they wont be able to resign him after next season... its the same thing Texas did with Tex last offseason.



This is just like our situation with Mark Teixeira (except they have a chance to resign him), they gave up a whole bunch of prospects to acquire him and if they traded him now, they wouldn't get his full value, so why do it?

This is nothing like our situation with Texiera... this is like the Rangers situation with Tex... he is under contract for one more year, the team is struggling, and they dont look like they will resign him.... so trade him for some specs to build with. They gave up a bunch of prospects in hopes to win this year (Bavasi was trying to keep his job) with the signings of Silva and trading for Bedard... well they are struggling and have some big contracts coming off the books... so trade the piece that they wont be able to resign to replenish the system. Its pretty simple economics.



But a package of Brandon Jones (decent left fielder at best), Brent Lillibridge (turning out to be a bust), Chuck James (bust), and Martin Prado (backup) wouldn't be even close.

Here's a package they'd actually look at-

Kelly Johnson
Jason Heyward
Brett Devall

Seems a bit much for one player, doesn't it?

That is a bit much for one player.... but it wouldnt take that much. why would it take more talent (KJ, Heywerd, and devall) than it took to get him to SEA? think about it... he has been injured and struggled all year, has one less season on his contract, and SEA is selling big time.

jdiddy24
06-16-2008, 08:12 PM
I'm not quite sure what that means, but I assume it's something to the gist of this?

"Well here, stop dreaming we can get him without losing our farm like we did with Tex."

I don't recall dreaming of acquiring him. I believe I was the one who pulled you guys down from cloud nine.

try again.... "well heres to dreaming we can get him without losing the farm"


.... and i guess thanks for using no logic to bring us down from "cloud nine" you dream crusher

Bravesman11
06-16-2008, 08:51 PM
try again.... "well heres to dreaming we can get him without losing the farm"


.... and i guess thanks for using no logic to bring us down from "cloud nine" you dream crusher

I'll admit, when I heard Bavasi was fired it changed my outlook on the whole situation. But nonetheless, who's to say they don't have the money to resign him after a down year? They have-

Raul Ibanez- 5.5 million

Kenji Johjima- 5.5 million

Horacio Ramirez- 2.75 million

Richie Sexson- 14 million

Jose Vidro- 8.5 million

Brad Wilkerson- 3 million

all coming off the books after this season (whether they're on the team or not), and since most of those players are underperforming their contracts they will find themselves out of the Mariner's organization or with a less bloated contract. Either way, you don't think the first place they're going to look to sign talent in would be pitching? Who's to say Lee Pelekoudas wants to dump Bedard?

jmtapia
06-16-2008, 08:56 PM
With his stock down. I would say
Brandon Jones
Eric Campbell
Gorkys Hernandez
and at least one more.

LOL..im glad you dont work for the Braves front office. Berdard has been struggling hard core. Gorkys isnt going any where. This is the one guy that can bring some of what we have been lacking since Furcal left.

Brandon Jones and Campbell im fine with.

Bravesman11
06-16-2008, 09:00 PM
You think Seattle is going to settle for less when they have a chance to keep Bedard long-term? I think Bedard on the block is a little too much speculation. I haven't heard any rumblings that he is actually available. Even though Bavasi made a mistake in acquiring Bedard for valuable prospects, why would Pelekoudas trade him away for less when he can sign him long term?

And with two young, controlable aces in Bedard and Hernandez, they won't have that long to rebuild.

jmtapia
06-16-2008, 09:02 PM
The Mariners aren't going to give up on him so easily first of all.

They gave up Adam Jones (Orioles starting center fielder), George Sherrill (Their best reliever, closer, and second in Major League Baseball in saves (22)) , and three other prospects (Chris Tillman, Kam Mickolio, and Tony Butler)

This is just like our situation with Mark Teixeira (except they have a chance to resign him), they gave up a whole bunch of prospects to acquire him and if they traded him now, they wouldn't get his full value, so why do it?

But a package of Brandon Jones (decent left fielder at best), Brent Lillibridge (turning out to be a bust), Chuck James (bust), and Martin Prado (backup) wouldn't be even close.

Here's a package they'd actually look at-

Kelly Johnson
Jason Heyward
Brett Devall

Seems a bit much for one player, doesn't it?

1. According to the Braves Jones is a 25-30 HR guy which is better then decent. How is Lilli a bust????

2. Are you serious KJ, Heyward, And Devail. I dont even think we have signed Devail yet and ppl already want him out of town. The guy was a steal. Some ppl had him in the Top 10 in their Mocks. And Heyward included?? Please, I take it you dont follow the Braves Minor league system. Baseball America is considering putting Heyward in their TOP 5 Prospects in ALL OF BASEBALL.

Trust if there was a prospect off limit in all of baseball right now it would be Jason Heyward. No one knows how he slipped to us.

CrippledRam
06-16-2008, 10:09 PM
1. According to the Braves Jones is a 25-30 HR guy which is better then decent. How is Lilli a bust????

2. Are you serious KJ, Heyward, And Devail. I dont even think we have signed Devail yet and ppl already want him out of town. The guy was a steal. Some ppl had him in the Top 10 in their Mocks. And Heyward included?? Please, I take it you dont follow the Braves Minor league system. Baseball America is considering putting Heyward in their TOP 5 Prospects in ALL OF BASEBALL.

Trust if there was a prospect off limit in all of baseball right now it would be Jason Heyward. No one knows how he slipped to us.

Plus you can't trade guys for a year after they are drafted.

Bravesman11
06-16-2008, 10:20 PM
1. According to the Braves Jones is a 25-30 HR guy which is better then decent. How is Lilli a bust????

2. Are you serious KJ, Heyward, And Devail. I dont even think we have signed Devail yet and ppl already want him out of town. The guy was a steal. Some ppl had him in the Top 10 in their Mocks. And Heyward included?? Please, I take it you dont follow the Braves Minor league system. Baseball America is considering putting Heyward in their TOP 5 Prospects in ALL OF BASEBALL.

Trust if there was a prospect off limit in all of baseball right now it would be Jason Heyward. No one knows how he slipped to us.

Well then the Braves are wrong. The most homeruns Brandon has hit in his career was 15 in double A. Theres no way you make a jump from 15 in a AA season to 30 in a major league season. Other than that he is only an average player in left (the weakest defensive position on the field), I can only see him becoming an average player in the majors based on his prior statistics.

Lillibridge has been good in all of his minor league seasons up until this season. Maybe the first full year in AAA is getting to him. It's probably a bit much to call him a bust prospect (sorry), but in this season in AAA EVERYTHING has dropped, his BB/K ratio has been terrible (14/47) his average is down a hundred points, he has only one home run so far, even his caught-stealing percentage has suffered (very strange) from 18% last year to 23% this year.

I understand the Brave's minor league system quite extensively actually, and Bedard would cost you a lot. The Mariners do NOT need to trade him for prospects, as they have the means to sign him long-term, but every GM has his price, and I don't see him settling for anything less.

Jon93405
06-16-2008, 10:28 PM
Why are we discussing trading major prospects for an injury prone year and a half rental? We deplete the farm system even more and get another guy we can't afford to sign... great.

jmtapia
06-16-2008, 10:48 PM
Well then the Braves are wrong. The most homeruns Brandon has hit in his career was 15 in double A. Theres no way you make a jump from 15 in a AA season to 30 in a major league season. Other than that he is only an average player in left (the weakest defensive position on the field), I can only see him becoming an average player in the majors based on his prior statistics.

Lillibridge has been good in all of his minor league seasons up until this season. Maybe the first full year in AAA is getting to him. It's probably a bit much to call him a bust prospect (sorry), but in this season in AAA EVERYTHING has dropped, his BB/K ratio has been terrible (14/47) his average is down a hundred points, he has only one home run so far, even his caught-stealing percentage has suffered (very strange) from 18% last year to 23% this year.

I understand the Brave's minor league system quite extensively actually, and Bedard would cost you a lot. The Mariners do NOT need to trade him for prospects, as they have the means to sign him long-term, but every GM has his price, and I don't see him settling for anything less.

Jeff Francouer highest HR total was 15 in A+. For that sake Chipper's higher total was 15 in Class A also Utley's highest mark was 19 in AAA. Minor Leagues dont really give you a true glimps of what a player can do.

According to Sports Psychology a player always rises up to the competition. Thats what we are seeing with BJ getting off to a good start. Also i believe that BJ was just going through the motions in AAA, he knows he is ready and was just frustrated. Thats just my opinion though.

Sure but your dealing with the Braves front office not the Mets. Braves arent going to give up a very consistent and young 2B, a most likely TOP 5 prospect in all of baseball that is barely 18, and a young pitcher they havent even signed. Devail looks great and to some he was the best pitcher in the draft.

If the Mariners were sold on Berdard you wouldnt see reports about him being shopped. They realize the best thing might be for them to trade him to get higher return.

CrippledRam
06-16-2008, 11:06 PM
Jeff Francouer highest HR total was 15 in A+. For that sake Chipper's higher total was 15 in Class A also Utley's highest mark was 19 in AAA. Minor Leagues dont really give you a true glimps of what a player can do.

According to Sports Psychology a player always rises up to the competition. Thats what we are seeing with BJ getting off to a good start. Also i believe that BJ was just going through the motions in AAA, he knows he is ready and was just frustrated. Thats just my opinion though.

Sure but your dealing with the Braves front office not the Mets. Braves arent going to give up a very consistent and young 2B, a most likely TOP 5 prospect in all of baseball that is barely 18, and a young pitcher they havent even signed. Devail looks great and to some he was the best pitcher in the draft.

If the Mariners were sold on Berdard you wouldnt see reports about him being shopped. They realize the best thing might be for them to trade him to get higher return.

Again...you cannot trade players until they are been in the system for one year. This is due to the no trading draft picks rule.

jmtapia
06-16-2008, 11:09 PM
^^^Dude i never said trade anyone. We could trade Heyward bc its been a year. IM AGAINST TRADING HEYWARD AND DeVAIL... whether its 1, 2, or 3 years from now. 1st rounders arent meant to be traded they are meant to be groomed into studs.

CrippledRam
06-16-2008, 11:12 PM
Agreed

braves790
06-16-2008, 11:55 PM
Ok for anyone who thinks for one second that Braves are going to trade Heyward you have either a) no idea what your talking about or b) have no freaking clue who Heyward is. We can find better options than Bedard. Like Jon said do we really need another year and a half rent-a-player?

Jon93405
06-17-2008, 12:30 AM
I'm excited about our rotation possibilities...

Jo-Jo has been very good for a 23 year old with a lot of K's and his BB's are down. He's pitching deep into games lately and has lowered his ERA from 5.84 to 4.42 over the last month.

Jair has been one of the top pitchers this season on pace for 15 wins.

Morton was solid in his first start after dominating AAA.

I was worried Campillo's luck would wear out but his 45K/9BB in 54 innings imply he might have what it takes to perform consistently at the MLB level. It's not like people are hitting it right at defenders... Jorge is making batters look foolish on occasion.

The best thing is, these guys are under control for another 5 years at a low cost.

THE_FLASH_21
06-17-2008, 12:57 AM
Jurrjens ???? five more years???

robdizzle3
06-17-2008, 03:26 AM
There is no way that I would want to trade Heyward for almost anyone.To me he is untouchable but we really do have to find a veteran strter or someoneelse that can pitch well for us.I am really wanting to get Maddux back in a Braves Uni but who knows?

Bravesman11
06-17-2008, 01:11 PM
There is no way that I would want to trade Heyward for almost anyone.To me he is untouchable but we really do have to find a veteran strter or someoneelse that can pitch well for us.I am really wanting to get Maddux back in a Braves Uni but who knows?

There is no one on this forum in favor of trading Heyward. But a package with Heywad included would probably be the only thing that could pique the Mariner's interest.

Bravesman11
06-17-2008, 01:25 PM
Jeff Francouer highest HR total was 15 in A+. For that sake Chipper's higher total was 15 in Class A also Utley's highest mark was 19 in AAA. Minor Leagues dont really give you a true glimps of what a player can do.

According to Sports Psychology a player always rises up to the competition. Thats what we are seeing with BJ getting off to a good start. Also i believe that BJ was just going through the motions in AAA, he knows he is ready and was just frustrated. Thats just my opinion though.

Sure but your dealing with the Braves front office not the Mets. Braves arent going to give up a very consistent and young 2B, a most likely TOP 5 prospect in all of baseball that is barely 18, and a young pitcher they havent even signed. Devail looks great and to some he was the best pitcher in the draft.

If the Mariners were sold on Berdard you wouldnt see reports about him being shopped. They realize the best thing might be for them to trade him to get higher return.

That's because those players were so talented they didn't stay in that class for long. Take Francoeur for instance, the total number of home runs he hit in 2004 with A and AA was 18, that's all in one year. When he came to Atlanta full time in 2006, he hit 29. This had something to do with the fact he was swinging for the fences every at-bat (ahem 132 K's) and that pitchers didn't know how to pitch to him because he was new. Now, look at last year, Francoeur hit 19 home runs, quite similar to his minor league numbers.

The same thing applies to Brandon Jones, you aren't going to see much more than what you saw when he was in the minors.

And for the last time, I don't want to trade these players! I was just saying a package similar to that would be the only thing that would turn the Mariner's heads. And, sorry, Devall was not the best pitcher in the draft.

The only thing I've heard is that there is SPECULATION that Bedard could be traded because there is a new GM. I personally don't understand why Pelekoudas would try to rid himself of a young ace whom they can lock up long term.

jmtapia
06-17-2008, 02:58 PM
There is no one on this forum in favor of trading Heyward. But a package with Heywad included would probably be the only thing that could pique the Mariner's interest.

Well then we look some where else. Although im sure they would consider a package that started with: B. Jones, Lilli, Thorman and some one else.

jmtapia
06-17-2008, 03:10 PM
The only thing I've heard is that there is SPECULATION that Bedard could be traded because there is a new GM. I personally don't understand why Pelekoudas would try to rid himself of a young ace whom they can lock up long term.

Because they are way out of it and Bedard isnt producing anything like an ACE. All in all id rather go after a young stud that we can control for a few years.

Bravesman11
06-17-2008, 03:41 PM
Well then we look some where else. Although im sure they would consider a package that started with: B. Jones, Lilli, Thorman and some one else.

I'm sorry, but a package with two decent major league players at best and Scott Thorman (who only batted .216 in ample at-bats in the majors) wouldn't be enough to capture their interest. Us Braves' fans have a tendency to over-value our prospects and this is no exception.

Jon93405
06-17-2008, 03:44 PM
Jurrjens ???? five more years???
I don't get what your question is.

Bravesman11
06-17-2008, 03:48 PM
Because they are way out of it and Bedard isnt producing anything like an ACE. All in all id rather go after a young stud that we can control for a few years.

Just because he isn't producing NOW, doesn't mean he won't in the future. He has been limited by injuries and terrible offense. He still is putting up a nice K/BB ratio which suggest to me he still has it. I don't understand why anyone would say he lost it (he's only 29).

jmtapia
06-17-2008, 04:40 PM
Just because he isn't producing NOW, doesn't mean he won't in the future. He has been limited by injuries and terrible offense. He still is putting up a nice K/BB ratio which suggest to me he still has it. I don't understand why anyone would say he lost it (he's only 29).

Yeah he might rebound but id rather save my trade chips for someone younger, some in their mid 20.

THE_FLASH_21
06-17-2008, 10:44 PM
I don't get what your question is.

People are saying that Jurrjens is under contract for five years... is that true??

jmtapia
06-17-2008, 10:56 PM
hes a rookie this year so i guess yeah counting this one.

GLASSMAN
06-21-2008, 01:36 PM
Last night Pete Van Wieren (sp) said that Bedard has refused to re-enter 2 games recently because HE has imposed a 100 pitch limit on HIS outings. He's either aware of an eminent trade and he's saving himself or he's an arrogant prick. Either way, I'm not sure he an Bobby would get along too well. His back spasm in the third inning last night was unfortunate as well.

braves790
06-21-2008, 01:59 PM
Ok Braves fans let's get one thing clear and i'm tired of saying this **** but: THE BRAVES ARE NOT GOING TO TRADE JASON HEYWARD!!!!! Get that thought out of your mind quickly!! And Bedard is a ***** whose always injured I don't want his punk *** we don't need another Rafael Soriano!

jmtapia
06-21-2008, 02:28 PM
Last night Pete Van Wieren (sp) said that Bedard has refused to re-enter 2 games recently because HE has imposed a 100 pitch limit on HIS outings. He's either aware of an eminent trade and he's saving himself or he's an arrogant prick. Either way, I'm not sure he an Bobby would get along too well. His back spasm in the third inning last night was unfortunate as well.

**** this guy. I hate players that are getting paid big bucks are a little girls.

Bravesman11
06-21-2008, 03:11 PM
Last night Pete Van Wieren (sp) said that Bedard has refused to re-enter 2 games recently because HE has imposed a 100 pitch limit on HIS outings. He's either aware of an eminent trade and he's saving himself or he's an arrogant prick. Either way, I'm not sure he an Bobby would get along too well. His back spasm in the third inning last night was unfortunate as well.

I find that VERY hard to believe for two reasons.

1. Bedard doesn't talk to anyone, media, teammates, sometimes coaches, how would this information get out, and better yet, how did Pete Van Wieren know about this?

2. Read this article-
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080615&content_id=2935059&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea

He's been the same pitcher he's always been. Nothing's changed. There's just been speculation because he has thrown less innings than last year. That doesn't mean he isn't throwing the same amount of pitches.

Bravesman11
06-21-2008, 03:19 PM
Ok Braves fans let's get one thing clear and i'm tired of saying this **** but: THE BRAVES ARE NOT GOING TO TRADE JASON HEYWARD!!!!! Get that thought out of your mind quickly!! And Bedard is a ***** whose always injured I don't want his punk *** we don't need another Rafael Soriano!

Where did that come form? We all know Heyward is not going to be traded, Heyward would be the only thing they might be interested in however. And Bedard has only been on the DL twice. The back spasms he incurred last night probably won't be enough to make him miss his next start.

GLASSMAN
06-21-2008, 03:25 PM
I find that VERY hard to believe for two reasons.

1. Bedard doesn't talk to anyone, media, teammates, sometimes coaches, how would this information get out, and better yet, how did Pete Van Wieren know about this?

2. Read this article-
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080615&content_id=2935059&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea

He's been the same pitcher he's always been. Nothing's changed. There's just been speculation because he has thrown less innings than last year. That doesn't mean he isn't throwing the same amount of pitches.

1. You'd have to ask Pete that question. I choose to believe what he said.

2. Thanks for the reference, but there is an awful lot of mention about the 100 inning limit. IF he did refuse to go to the mound because he had pitched 99 pitches, then I'm pretty sure his priorities are set. Self over Team. I don't know if these were close games or blowouts but if he was expected to pitch and didn't then I'd be wary as a team mate.

braves790
06-21-2008, 03:34 PM
That's gay!

Bravesman11
06-21-2008, 03:35 PM
1. You'd have to ask Pete that question. I choose to believe what he said.

2. Thanks for the reference, but there is an awful lot of mention about the 100 inning limit. IF he did refuse to go to the mound because he had pitched 99 pitches, then I'm pretty sure his priorities are set. Self over Team. I don't know if these were close games or blowouts but if he was expected to pitch and didn't then I'd be wary as a team mate.

1. Pete Van Weiren is not a Mariner's beat writer, or any type of baseball columnist for that matter. He's a radio play-by-play announcer. What does he know, honestly?

2. The article basically debunked Pete's theory anyway. Did you read it? He is not capable of pitching well past one hundred pitches most of the time. Here's the quote from their former manager, John McLaren-
"I think that basically is what he is," "That's the way he was in Baltimore. I think he might have thrown 110 pitches a couple of times. But basically he is programmed to go 100 pitches."
He's not being a jerk, he's just being what he is.

jmtapia
06-21-2008, 03:50 PM
^^^ For all its worth. I still dont want Bedard here. We would give up to much for a 100-pitch pitcher. Even if thats all he can honestly bring.

Imagine we bring him here and we make the playoffs he gets the nod for a elimination game and he is doing good, late into the game and he reaches 100 pitches... god forbid Bobby bring in Bennett or one of the rookies.....I want pitchers that will go out there and compete till someone has to carry them off the field. Bloody sock and all...lol

GLASSMAN
06-21-2008, 03:54 PM
1. He's a [B]MARINER'S[B] beat writer.

2. I did read the article and thank you for asking. I didn't call Bedard a jerk because I don't know him that well. I only commented that I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I needed him to pitch 101 pitches especially knowing that I'd paid him xx million dollars to do so.

Bravesman11
06-21-2008, 04:10 PM
1. He's a [B]MARINER'S[B] beat writer.

2. I did read the article and thank you for asking. I didn't call Bedard a jerk because I don't know him that well. I only commented that I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I needed him to pitch 101 pitches especially knowing that I'd paid him xx million dollars to do so.

Pete Van Weiren is not a Mariner's beat writer.

But you called him an arrogant prick who puts himself before his team. He pitched 182 inning last year which is no small feet. And I'm sure he can find a way to get one pitch past his usual threshold if he's in the middle of an inning. :rolleyes:

GLASSMAN
06-21-2008, 04:23 PM
Pete Van Weiren is not a Mariner's beat writer.

But you called him an arrogant prick who puts himself before his team. He pitched 182 inning last year which is no small feet. And I'm sure he can find a way to get one pitch past his usual threshold if he's in the middle of an inning.

My communication skills lack clarity when I'm being fecisious. I was referring to the Mariners beat writer who was writing about Bedard on the Mariners website. I'm sure that there was no slant to the article.

You're right. Bedard is probably a man of principle. Up to the 100 pitch mark anyway.

Question: Why would it have to be in the middle of an inning, why not in the middle of a game?

Bravesman11
06-21-2008, 04:33 PM
Pete Van Weiren is not a Mariner's beat writer.

But you called him an arrogant prick who puts himself before his team. He pitched 182 inning last year which is no small feet. And I'm sure he can find a way to get one pitch past his usual threshold if he's in the middle of an inning.

My communication skills lack clarity when I'm being fecisious. I was referring to the Mariners beat writer who was writing about Bedard on the Mariners website. I'm sure that there was no slant to the article.

You're right. Bedard is probably a man of principle. Up to the 100 pitch mark anyway.

Question: Why would it have to be in the middle of an inning, why not in the middle of a game?

Very funny, and the word is facetious. And no, when you have direct quotes from the player's manager, there is no room for opinion or bias.

And what proof do you have that Bedard is not a man of responsibility? You have speculation that Pete Van Weiren created, and let me remind you that Pete is the play-by-play announcer for the Braves, a team who is in a different league and is at the total opposite end of the country's spectrum of Seattle. And I have information from a reporter from MLB.com and direct quotes from the manager. Mine trumps yours, plain and simple.

I don't understand your question. Could you please rephrase it?

GLASSMAN
06-21-2008, 05:01 PM
Not that it matters, but he is the ex-manager, and he was stating his opinion and some facts at the time. I think tha I detected a sense of frustration in the interview. "it is what it is" to paraphrase. I'd be interested to hear what he'd have to say now that he's on the outside.

You choose to believe who/what you want to and I'll do the same. Can you disprove that Bedard refused his manager's call to pitch? I'm trying to make this less a discussion about personalities and more about attitude but Pete's a Baseball man whether he works at the Zippy Mart or does commentary for the Georgia Crackers. His word is good with me.

"And I'm sure he can find a way to get one pitch past his usual threshold if he's in the middle of an inning. " This is the reference to my question. Hope it helps.

Bravesman11
06-21-2008, 05:16 PM
Not that it matters, but he is the ex-manager, and he was stating his opinion and some facts at the time. I think tha I detected a sense of frustration in the interview. "it is what it is" to paraphrase. I'd be interested to hear what he'd have to say now that he's on the outside.

You choose to believe who/what you want to and I'll do the same. Can you disprove that Bedard refused his manager's call to pitch? I'm trying to make this less a discussion about personalities and more about attitude but Pete's a Baseball man whether he works at the Zippy Mart or does commentary for the Georgia Crackers. His word is good with me.

"And I'm sure he can find a way to get one pitch past his usual threshold if he's in the middle of an inning. " This is the reference to my question. Hope it helps.

No... McLaren was stating facts, not opinions. Nothing he said was biased and I doubt his opinion on his former player would change because he was fired by management.

And you can detect what you want out of text, (where you can really assume inflections and such), but what the literal meaning of that is, that his pitching limit hasn't changed and we don't expect it to.

I can't disprove that he didn't heed his ex-manager's call, but I don't have to prove somebody did or didn't do something. You have to prove that he did. Otherwise your argument is opinion based.

And ok, I'll take an unbiased reporter and the player's manager at the time's word, and you can take Pete Van Weiren. Go Crackers!

And no, that doesn't help, I understood you were referencing to my threshold remark, but I asked you to rephrase your question, not tell me where your question came from.

GLASSMAN
06-21-2008, 05:49 PM
1.No... McLaren was stating facts, not opinions. Nothing he said was biased and I doubt his opinion on his former player would change because he was fired by management.

2.And you can detect what you want out of text, (where you can really assume inflections and such), but what the literal meaning of that is, that his pitching limit hasn't changed and we don't expect it to.

3.I can't disprove that he didn't heed his ex-manager's call, but I don't have to prove somebody did or didn't do something. You have to prove that he did. Otherwise your argument is opinion based.

4.And ok, I'll take an unbiased reporter and the player's manager at the time's word, and you can take Pete Van Weiren. Go Crackers!

5.And no, that doesn't help, I understood you were referencing to my threshold remark, but I asked you to rephrase your question, not tell me where your question came from.

1. That would be speculation as well.
2. You are right. It could have been a sense of defeat.
3. The only evidence I have is circumstantial. Check the box
on Bedards last few starts. So I'll concede on this point for
now.
4. Lest we forget, this was posted on the biased/unbiased
Mariner's web site.
5. If you work for me, you do what I ask you to as long as
it's reasonable. Unless there is a 100 pitch clause in his
contract its subordination.

Bravesman11
06-21-2008, 06:08 PM
1. That would be speculation as well.
2. You are right. It could have been a sense of defeat.
3. The only evidence I have is circumstantial. Check the box
on Bedards last few starts. So I'll concede on this point for
now.
4. Lest we forget, this was posted on the biased/unbiased
Mariner's web site.
5. If you work for me, you do what I ask you to as long as
it's reasonable. Unless there is a 100 pitch clause in his
contract its subordination.

No, once again you want me to prove something I don't need to. McLaren's opinion of Bedard's pitching limit wouldn't change if he was fired.

What sense of defeat? McLaren said in essence that Bedard does not pitch well past one hundred pitches. He's not hinting that Bedard should go more, he's just stating facts. And perhaps you're underestimating what one hundred pitches means. It almost always adds up to past five innings unless there have been a lot of full counts.

Ok, 6.0 innings, 5.0 innings (2 hitter), as Bedard mentioned in the article, he had a lot of base-runners throughout. But, nevertheless he still qualified for the win.

Ugh, this was POSTED on the Mariner's site. It was a reporter from MLB.com, not a writer who works for the Mariners and tries to make them look good. It's unbiased and has FACT in it. What you're doing is disputing the facts and twisting them into something that makes your case sound better rather than taking them for their literal meaning.

Do you think Bedard waves to the dugout for the manager to pick him up? It's not like he quits right at one hundred. He finishes the inning if he can and then the manager takes him out because he knows Bedard won't be able to help him.

GLASSMAN
06-21-2008, 06:37 PM
No, once again you want me to prove something I don't need to. McLaren's opinion of Bedard's pitching limit wouldn't change if he was fired.

What sense of defeat? McLaren said in essence that Bedard does not pitch well past one hundred pitches. He's not hinting that Bedard should go more, he's just stating facts. And perhaps you're underestimating what one hundred pitches means. It almost always adds up to past five innings unless there have been a lot of full counts.

Ok, 6.0 innings, 5.0 innings (2 hitter), as Bedard mentioned in the article, he had a lot of base-runners throughout. But, nevertheless he still qualified for the win.

Ugh, this was POSTED on the Mariner's site. It was a reporter from MLB.com, not a writer who works for the Mariners and tries to make them look good. It's unbiased and has FACT in it. What you're doing is disputing the facts and twisting them into something that makes your case sound better rather than taking them for their literal meaning.

Do you think Bedard waves to the dugout for the manager to pick him up? It's not like he quits right at one hundred. He finishes the inning if he can and then the manager takes him out because he knows Bedard won't be able to help him.

I'm not questioning McLaren's veracity. I'm sure that he said all that he could. You know, manager speak.

100 pitches is a nice round number but I don't think that there is any thing magic about it. Some days 75 pitches and some days 110. Does he discount his pay when he pitches less than 100 pitches to make up the difference? I imagine if he got paid by the pitch he opt to pitch more.

No guarantee that the bull pen is going to hold. Maybe he should pay a bonus to the pitchers that secured "his" win.

When was the last time you read a blatantly negative article about a team on it's own website? You can bet all articles are monitored and/or edited.

He doesn't need a sign. Apparently he finishes the inning, to his credit, and doesn't come back out, apparently his call, not the managers'.

Bravesman11
06-21-2008, 10:40 PM
I'm not questioning McLaren's veracity. I'm sure that he said all that he could. You know, manager speak.

100 pitches is a nice round number but I don't think that there is any thing magic about it. Some days 75 pitches and some days 110. Does he discount his pay when he pitches less than 100 pitches to make up the difference? I imagine if he got paid by the pitch he opt to pitch more.

No guarantee that the bull pen is going to hold. Maybe he should pay a bonus to the pitchers that secured "his" win.

When was the last time you read a blatantly negative article about a team on it's own website? You can bet all articles are monitored and/or edited.

He doesn't need a sign. Apparently he finishes the inning, to his credit, and doesn't come back out, apparently his call, not the managers'.

Well than why do you keep questioning his comments? There's nothing behind them, he spoke the truth. I'm sorry, I don't know why this isn't getting through to you.

No, he isn't as effective past one hundred pitches. I'd assume he'd go out for more if the manager wanted him to, but the manager knows his drop after 100 pitches and takes him out.

Dude, honestly, now you're doing whatever you can to make him look bad. When a pitcher "qualifies" for a win, he pitches in a manner that allows his team to win. To qualify for a win, you have to pitch at least five innings and leave with a lead. And no, I don't think he should pay a bonus to the bullpen pitchers that hold his lead.

Reports like that are unbiased unless they were written by a beat writer. In this case, it wasn't. It was a reporter from MLB.com named Jesse Baumgarter. It was reporting facts, not opinions.

How many Mariner's games have you seen? How do you know all this information about Bedard's pitch limit? And how in the world do you know that Bedard sets HIMSELF a pitch limit? Pitcher's don't do that unless they are rebounding from an injury and even then, the coaching staff sets the limit. His performance is not as good past one hundred pitches, he finishes the inning if he can, and he leaves after the inning.

GLASSMAN
06-22-2008, 07:32 AM
Well than why do you keep questioning his comments? There's nothing behind them, he spoke the truth. I'm sorry, I don't know why this isn't getting through to you.

No, he isn't as effective past one hundred pitches. I'd assume he'd go out for more if the manager wanted him to, but the manager knows his drop after 100 pitches and takes him out.

Dude, honestly, now you're doing whatever you can to make him look bad. When a pitcher "qualifies" for a win, he pitches in a manner that allows his team to win. To qualify for a win, you have to pitch at least five innings and leave with a lead. And no, I don't think he should pay a bonus to the bullpen pitchers that hold his lead.

Reports like that are unbiased unless they were written by a beat writer. In this case, it wasn't. It was a reporter from MLB.com named Jesse Baumgarter. It was reporting facts, not opinions.

How many Mariner's games have you seen? How do you know all this information about Bedard's pitch limit? And how in the world do you know that Bedard sets HIMSELF a pitch limit? Pitcher's don't do that unless they are rebounding from an injury and even then, the coaching staff sets the limit. His performance is not as good past one hundred pitches, he finishes the inning if he can, and he leaves after the inning.

I found this article to be of interest in our discussion. I agree with you that McLaren is a stand up guy. I also think that in order to be considered for future jobs he may not be fully open with his comments.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/mariners/story/394177.html

Bravesman11
06-22-2008, 12:54 PM
I found this article to be of interest in our discussion. I agree with you that McLaren is a stand up guy. I also think that in order to be considered for future jobs he may not be fully open with his comments.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/mariners/story/394177.html

Well, I was impressed that you found an article that mentioned Bedard's self-imposed imposed pitch limit. But still, the source was anonymous, and all we know it was one of the coaches that was fired. Bedard hadn't done anything wrong by waiting in the clubhouse when he wasn't starting. He may have done the minimum, but he hadn't done anything wrong.

GLASSMAN
06-22-2008, 01:36 PM
Well, I was impressed that you found an article that mentioned Bedard's self-imposed imposed pitch limit. But still, the source was anonymous, and all we know it was one of the coaches that was fired. Bedard hadn't done anything wrong by waiting in the clubhouse when he wasn't starting. He may have done the minimum, but he hadn't done anything wrong.

My only point in this whole discussion has been that I wasn't sure that HIS work ethic would fit into the Braves picture. Thank you for helping to make that clear.

Bravesman11
06-22-2008, 04:42 PM
My only point in this whole discussion has been that I wasn't sure that HIS work ethic would fit into the Braves picture. Thank you for helping to make that clear.

What makes you think the Braves don't have lazy players? Jeff has been working really hard to get that average up, hasn't he? Andruw Jones finally got it going last year when he listened to Terry. In case you haven't noticed, Bobby doesn't care as long as you just do what's expected of you. The difference between Bedard and Jones and Francoeur is that he does what is expected of him and just because he isn't a gym rat doesn't mean he doesn't care enough to fix whatever is wrong with him. He does his job.

GLASSMAN
06-22-2008, 04:54 PM
Different topic(s), different thread(s). Catch you later, got to go see Kung Foo Panda with the grands.

evaroberts
07-11-2008, 07:31 AM
Greatly written there.. I think i do agree with the concern for Bedard. But his prospectus shows never to under estimate him. Does it depend upon the number of pitches with respect to discount??
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jmtapia
07-11-2008, 05:57 PM
Only if he came cheap....ala BJ, Lilli and some other prospect.