PDA

View Full Version : Nolan Ryan vs. Randy Johnson



TheTexan
06-10-2008, 06:20 PM
Whose the better pitcher?

Gotta be Nolan Ryan. Mr. Alvin Texas. With his 7 no hitters and 5300 strike outs, how can he NOT be the greatest pitcher of all time.....

quiksilver2491
06-10-2008, 06:56 PM
Whose the better pitcher?

Gotta be Nolan Ryan. Mr. Alvin Texas. With his 7 no hitters and 5300 strike outs, how can he NOT be the greatest pitcher of all time.....

Randy Johnson is better than Nolan Ryan easily and I wouldn't go as far as saying Ryan is in the top 25 pitchers all time. Going by win shares he sits at 30 all time for pitchers and thats right about where I would place him on my all time pitcher list.

xander
06-10-2008, 07:48 PM
I would take Ryan easily. He had so many K's and no-hitters, and he touched 100 MPH on the gun for most of his career.

Brooke
06-10-2008, 07:53 PM
Nolan Ryan definitely

quiksilver2491
06-10-2008, 08:39 PM
Jeez and I always thought the ratio of educated baseball fans to uneducated baseball fans was like 1:5 but over the past few weeks I have become increasingly more surprised with the actual ratio.

choog
06-10-2008, 08:53 PM
Randy Johnson is better than Nolan Ryan easily and I wouldn't go as far as saying Ryan is in the top 25 pitchers all time. Going by win shares he sits at 30 all time for pitchers and thats right about where I would place him on my all time pitcher list.

Wins has nothing (well not nothing) to do with a pitchers capabilities. You put him on the Sox or Yankees his whole career he wins 400 games easy.

I would take Nolan but he is not the greatest pitcher of all-time. There are several I would rank in front of him. Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver. Not to mention the oldies that you can't compare without a drawn out argument. (Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Satchel Paige, Ed Walsh)

quiksilver2491
06-10-2008, 09:04 PM
Wins has nothing (well not nothing) to do with a pitchers capabilities. You put him on the Sox or Yankees his whole career he wins 400 games easy.

I would take Nolan but he is not the greatest pitcher of all-time. There are several I would rank in front of him. Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver. Not to mention the oldies that you can't compare without a drawn out argument. (Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Satchel Paige, Ed Walsh)

Huh, I never mentioned wins I said win shares there is a HUGE difference there. One is a pretty easy stat to figure out, you pitch 5 innings with the lead and your teams holds it up you get a win the other is much more complicated then that and uses sabermetrics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win_shares

By comparison

Randy Johnson - WS/311 WSAB/198
Nolan Ryan - WS/334 WSAB/175

bagwell368
06-11-2008, 09:42 AM
OK guys.

wins is a team stat - toss it out.

ERA, and its modern variants DERA, ERA+ etc. are the single most useful way to judge a pitcher.

Nolan Ryan ERA+ 111 (that means he was 11% better then his rivals, obviously it went down as he aged). But he only had two years over 140 in 27 years and with 5386 IP, which is the sign of a pitcher with great longevity, but fitting a #2 on a good staff (#308 all time). He never won a Cy, and has 1.48 Cy Young Shares

Johnson has 138 ERA+ (38% better then average in his years) good for 17th all time. Johnson had eight years at 140 and over ERA+. He won 5 Cy Youngs, and has 6.50 total win shares.

Johnson also easily surpases Nolan in Black/Gray Ink and HoF Standards/Monitor numbers on baseball-reference.

I agree with the other poster that Ryan is at best #25 on the list, but probably more like #32. The notion that Ryan is best from a freak think like longevity or number of no hitters or K totals is absurd and without any serious merit.

That is in comparison with the #2 K guy of all time who has 3919 IP. If we were talking Saberhagen who was also way better then Ryan at his best, but just didn't toss that many innings then overall career value you have a point.

quiksilver2491
06-11-2008, 02:49 PM
OK guys.

wins is a team stat - toss it out.


I guess noone knows what win shares are :shrug:. Anyways I said Ryan would be right about 30 all time which is actually being generous. He is probably the most overated player of all time, I don't think there is a better example of player with great "gaudy" stats but have no "real" stats to back it up.

Cursed Rangers
06-11-2008, 04:25 PM
7 No hitters
19 complete games with 1 hit or less
222 complete games
61 shutouts
215 games with 10+ K's
26 games with 15+ K's
3.19 ERA
recorded throwing a pitch 100.9 MPH
383 K's in 1973
6, 300 K seasons
15, 200 K seasons
24, 100 K seasons
5,714 k's

And you think he is the most overrated player of all time? With no real stats?

How does longevity explain a season with almost 400 strikeouts? Are we supposed to discredit Hank Aaron's 755 HR's because he played a long time. Should we say that Aaron is not good, because Sosa had 3 years with 60+ HR's and Aaron never had one.

You can argue that Nolan is not the top pitcher of all time, but you can't tell me he is overrated.

redwhitenblue
06-11-2008, 05:24 PM
7 No hitters
19 complete games with 1 hit or less
222 complete games
61 shutouts
215 games with 10+ K's
26 games with 15+ K's
3.19 ERA
recorded throwing a pitch 100.9 MPH
383 K's in 1973
6, 300 K seasons
15, 200 K seasons
24, 100 K seasons
5,714 k's

And you think he is the most overrated player of all time? With no real stats?

How does longevity explain a season with almost 400 strikeouts? Are we supposed to discredit Hank Aaron's 755 HR's because he played a long time. Should we say that Aaron is not good, because Sosa had 3 years with 60+ HR's and Aaron never had one.

You can argue that Nolan is not the top pitcher of all time, but you can't tell me he is overrated.
Because so many uneducated think he is the best of all-time, he most certainly is overrated


In their prime, I'd take Johnson, over a full career I'd take Ryan, neither are close to the best of all time

choog
06-11-2008, 09:13 PM
I guess noone knows what win shares are :shrug:. Anyways I said Ryan would be right about 30 all time which is actually being generous. He is probably the most overated player of all time, I don't think there is a better example of player with great "gaudy" stats but have no "real" stats to back it up.

No. . . I have never heard of a win share. My apologies.

quiksilver2491
06-11-2008, 09:20 PM
7 No hitters
19 complete games with 1 hit or less
222 complete games
61 shutouts
215 games with 10+ K's
26 games with 15+ K's
3.19 ERA
recorded throwing a pitch 100.9 MPH
383 K's in 1973
6, 300 K seasons
15, 200 K seasons
24, 100 K seasons
5,714 k's

And you think he is the most overrated player of all time? With no real stats?

How does longevity explain a season with almost 400 strikeouts? Are we supposed to discredit Hank Aaron's 755 HR's because he played a long time. Should we say that Aaron is not good, because Sosa had 3 years with 60+ HR's and Aaron never had one.

You can argue that Nolan is not the top pitcher of all time, but you can't tell me he is overrated.

No? If anything you proved my point even more by the stats you posted. I asked for REAL stats and you post he has been recorded at 100.9 MPH tells me all I need to know about the stats your putting up. You do realize guys like Kyle Farnsworth have thrown over 100, does that make him worthy of being great? Almost every single stat you posted was an example of high strikeout rates for a longggg career. Also strikouts are the equivalent of homeruns to a hitter, they look nice and get the fans going but really mean near to nothing about the true talent of the player.

Now if you want to explain to me why a pitcher with a whoping ERA+ of 111 which is 3 points higher than the career average of DAVID WELLS, is considered the greatest pitcher of all time then by all means please explain it to me because im baffled. Now im not diminishing what the guy has accomplished and I have nothing against him but IMO he is the most dominating average player to ever play the game, take that in whatever way you want but his stats prove he was little more than average.

Tragedy
06-11-2008, 10:00 PM
I'll take Randy Johnson, thank you very much.

Nolan has some very impressive numbers (K record and No Hitters; No one bothers to remember he's walked more than anyone in history, though), but Randy Johnson, in his prime, was simply better.

ERA+ should show enough to see that Randy's been the better pitcher.

bagwell368
06-12-2008, 12:02 PM
I guess noone knows what win shares are :shrug:. Anyways I said Ryan would be right about 30 all time which is actually being generous. He is probably the most overated player of all time, I don't think there is a better example of player with great "gaudy" stats but have no "real" stats to back it up.

If I am talking CY Young Shares, DERA and ERA+ there is a heck of a chance I know what win shares are, I do not happen to have them handy at this point in time however. What is your point?


As for Ryan being overrated, he is. Take a poll of a 1000 average fans, and I would bet he would show up in the top 3, and probably number 1. Since he is no better then #25 (hardly shabby after all), then by definition he is overrated. Speed, K's, all of this is errata. What matters is runs given up per inning. That's the result he controls. Wins, unearned runs, blown saves after he leaves the game - all out of his control.


Just FYI: I rate all of these guys ahead of Ryan:

WJ
Grove
Alexander
Spahn
Clemens
Maddux
Randy
Seaver
Pedro
Gibson
Koufax
Feller
Hubbell
Carlton
Roberts
Palmer
Perry
Marichal
Ford
Smoltz
Glavine
Mussina
Jenkins


at a minimum, ps, I don't count dead ball only guys.

ShinobiNYC
06-12-2008, 05:55 PM
RJ by a bit, not only because he was filthier but also because he dominated an era which is known to be a hitters(cheating or not) era while Ryan was dominating in an period where rarely you would see someone hit more than 45 HRs.

HOOTIE
09-13-2008, 02:49 PM
RJ easily. Not even close. The object of a itcher is too prevent runs and win. RJ did both alot better.

23LBJCleBrowns
09-13-2008, 04:06 PM
nolan ryan is better no competition

quiksilver2491
09-13-2008, 04:12 PM
Randy Johnson is better no competition

Fixed it for you :)

PhillyUD26
09-13-2008, 05:16 PM
RJ easily

Redbull
09-13-2008, 09:23 PM
My favorite 2 pitchers off all time, ill go with Nolan Ryan.

bagwell368
09-14-2008, 12:28 AM
this old chestnut back....

there are two objectives of pitchers:


one is to give up the least amount of runs possible.

the second is pitch a long time - in a year, and in a career

so that whatever talents they have for the first issue can have more effect for the team.

Innings top 10 in a year: Johnson 9; Ryan 9 (even though Ryan had 6 more seasons in majors AND Ryan only cracked top 6 3 times while RJ did it 8 times)

ERA+ top 10 in a year: Johnson 9 (6 times first); Ryan 7 (2 times 1st)

Cy Young: Award Shares (2nd highest all time, 5 Cy Youngs); Ryan 23rd Cy Young shares 0 Cy Youngs

Remember these following stats are counting type stats - in rate stats RJ's lead is even more intense:

Black Ink: Johnson 7th all time; Ryan 11th all time
Gray Ink: 13th all time; 19th all time
HoF Standards: 13th all time; 27th all time
HoF Monitor: 4th all time; 9th all time

So, how is possible that anyone could say the guy with the most BB's (by far - 8 times led his league) in baseball history is better then a guy that dominated him in almost every key category, is 2nd in K's, and has much more control and was a much more consistent winner?

Go read Bill James on Ryan if you don't believe me.

cwilson21
09-14-2008, 12:33 AM
Johnson.

iangallagher29
09-14-2008, 11:12 PM
ryan. or johnson w/ mullet

xander
09-15-2008, 12:44 AM
Johnson will never even touch Nolan.

Wow, that sounds wrong.

Tragedy
09-15-2008, 12:47 AM
Johnson will never even touch Nolan.

Wow, that sounds wrong.
You're right, that does sound wrong, because it's an incorrect statement.

HOOTIE
09-15-2008, 01:27 AM
You're right, that does sound wrong, because it's an incorrect statement.

You might as well give up. Most people have no idea how to measure stats.

Lincecum4CY
09-16-2008, 10:11 PM
Randy Johnson is better than Nolan Ryan easily and I wouldn't go as far as saying Ryan is in the top 25 pitchers all time. Going by win shares he sits at 30 all time for pitchers and thats right about where I would place him on my all time pitcher list.

Wins don't justify how good a pitcher is. Its the K's and his no hitters and what he was able to do as a big leaguer. Easily a top 10 pitcher in the history of the game

bagwell368
09-16-2008, 10:28 PM
Wins don't justify how good a pitcher is. Its the K's and his no hitters and what he was able to do as a big leaguer. Easily a top 10 pitcher in the history of the game

Are you baiting? I agree 100% wins don't mean too much - like say a pitcher over a 15 year career has a .060 better winning percentage then the other guys he played with over the years, he's probably pretty damn good. But in a given a year a guy with a 160 ERA+ and a 13-16 record then a guy with a 19-4 record that has a 118 ERA+ all other things being equal, but the 13-16 guy won't beat out the 19-4 guy in the Cy.

As to K's. K's are outs. Better slightly then regular outs, but not by much. No hitters are a joke stat. Lots of guys don't have any. Did Nolan Ryan do as much every time he went out to prevent runs as Pedro, Clemens, Gibson, Koufax, Grove, WJ, Maddux, RJ - absolutely not, not even close. Preventing runs (ERA) is the job, everything else is fluff.

If K's are so great and we should bend down on the ground when Ryan passes why then does he have the record for BB's? In fact his lead over the #2 guy in K's is much less by percentage then the lead he enjoys over the #2 guy in BB's. Quality stat that one is.

I have run numbers for pitchers for years - about 20. And no matter how you slice it, Ryan never gets higher then about #24, and is usually about #28, and he is no match for Roger, RJ, Maddux, Pedro or even Schilling.

As I pointed out he pitched a lot of years - 27 - but was only in the top 6 in IP 2 or 3 years. This whole iron horse thing is a joke, Clemens was far more of a horse and so is RJ.

Also Ryan's percentage over his team isn't that great.

He is a myth and a legend, as an actual ball player he does not deserve all this blind adoration.

PhillyUD26
09-16-2008, 11:29 PM
Wins don't justify how good a pitcher is. Its the K's and his no hitters and what he was able to do as a big leaguer. Easily a top 10 pitcher in the history of the game

He said Win shares...much much much much much different. Infact, read the whole thread before you post, because somebody already said that, and he already explained it.

bagwell368
09-17-2008, 07:02 AM
t

ERA+ top 10 in a year: Johnson 9 (6 times first); Ryan 7 (2 times 1st)

Cy Young: Award Shares (2nd highest all time, 5 Cy Youngs); Ryan 23rd Cy Young shares 0 Cy Youngs


I believe that RJ's 6 times leading ERA+ is 3rd all time (Grove 1st, Clemens 2nd).

I know that RJ's Award shares and CY totals are both #2 after Clemens.

Where is Ryan? He played his whole career when there was a Cy Young for both leagues, and he's 23rd. Guys like WJ, Roberts, Grove, Ford and Hubbell would have won it a lot more then Ryan, so his 23rd CY Young shares would translate to what 48th?

A very hard throwing long lasting myth - due to PR and casual ignorance of the game by writers and fans alike. Wake up.

viktor06
09-17-2008, 08:42 AM
Its hilarious that half of the argument on this thread is caused of some people's lack of recognition of the text 'wins' and the text 'win shares'.

Randy Johnson is obviously the better pitcher, 137 vs. 111 ERA+...thats a big big gap

quiksilver2491
09-17-2008, 03:39 PM
He said Win shares...much much much much much different. Infact, read the whole thread before you post, because somebody already said that, and he already explained it.

Thanks :) saved me the time from having to go over it again

AirJordanXVIII
09-17-2008, 03:40 PM
Randy Johnson. Nolan was great, but Johnson played in the steroid era and still is beasting.

nyyfan4life
09-17-2008, 06:10 PM
Thanks to Bagwell and quicksliver I don't have to make my argument for Randy Johnson. Along with Pedro he was one of the most intimidating pitchers in their prime that I grew up watching.

bagwell368
09-17-2008, 08:55 PM
Thanks to Bagwell and quicksliver I don't have to make my argument for Randy Johnson. Along with Pedro he was one of the most intimidating pitchers in their prime that I grew up watching.

Thanks. RJ and Pedro are two of the best of any time. I had the great fortune to see Clemens and Pedro pitch many games in their prime in Fenway.

Look, Ryan isn't chopped liver I can name two dozen guys I would want him over. He was intimidating, and I doubt many batters ever felt comfortable against him - but "best" carries a lot of weight, and he doesn't cut it.

yaowowrocket11
09-17-2008, 09:16 PM
Randy Johnson was one of the most dominant pitchers in the history in the league. I'll take him slightly over Ryan.

bigmac8675
09-19-2008, 05:05 AM
Randy Johnson.... the guy was/is just intimidating.

bagwell368
02-20-2009, 06:22 PM
A new Koufax and Ryan as #1 all time argument is brewing. So I'm jumping some of the old threads up to the top.

Rylinkus
02-20-2009, 06:40 PM
Randy had a better career than Ryan.

cambovenzi
02-22-2009, 05:46 PM
I guess noone knows what win shares are :shrug:. Anyways I said Ryan would be right about 30 all time which is actually being generous. He is probably the most overated player of all time, I don't think there is a better example of player with great "gaudy" stats but have no "real" stats to back it up.

oh my god im :laugh: at these kids.
i feel for you man.

for those of you who dont know, roughly win shares measures how much his individual success should translate into wins, NOT the actual amount of wins he had.

Sportfan
02-22-2009, 05:53 PM
is this best pitcher overall or in their prime?

Sportfan
02-22-2009, 05:53 PM
if it's prime easily johnson if not id probably go ryan

todu82
02-25-2009, 12:02 PM
Randy Johnson

dodgerdave
03-06-2009, 06:25 PM
Randy Johnson also had trouble finding the strike zone during the first several years of his career. The difference between him and Ryan is that Johnson was able to correct that flaw earlier than when Ryan finally did. In fact Ryan was the one who gave Johnson suggestions on how to find the strike zone.

Old Sweater
03-06-2009, 07:09 PM
I'll always ride my #1 horse, Nolan Ryan in these polls. Like I have said before, I truly believe if you could place Nolan Ryan on a equal team against any of the great pitchers, that he would still walk away with his .526% winning percentage at seasons end and would be about a lock for it with career wins against any of the greats. 27 years of gas is hard to beat.


Long after he retired, Nolan Ryan illustrated the significance of recovery for a pitcher. Ryan participated in a charity event a few years ago in Round Rock, Texas, at which businessmen donated as much as $10,000 to take swings against him.

Ryan, in his mid-50s at the time, consistently threw 89 to 91 mph. One pitch registered 93 mph on the radar gun, prompting several Round Rock minor-leaguers to excitedly, half-jokingly tell Ryan he still could pitch in the majors. "Maybe if I only have to pitch once a month," he said.

His point -- recovery after a start is instrumental and becomes more difficult with age -- helps explain why steroids tempt pitchers. Anecdotal evidence confirms these drugs boost endurance, vital in a 162-game season.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/222726_roids04.html

^Every time I read something like this about my favorite pitcher it keeps the dumb little kid going in me about Nolan Ryan. He is my heart felt horse and I hardly ever change horses. In worm hole matchups, I'd go broke or be a very rich man........lol....no one in my mind can whip my horse more then .474 percent of the time. No one! And that goes for that Clemens and Pedro fellers to.

I also truly believe if you could worm hole Nolan Ryan with his fastball and slightly better curve into Walter Johnsons time frame with all the different conditions, that he would have very comparable stats with Walter Johnson. Same goes if you could worm hole Walter Johnson into Nolan Ryans time frame with his better control of the fastball, even though he had a smaller strike zone to work with. Who could really tell how much Nolan Ryans walk rate would drop with the bigger strike zone to work with vs the tougher batters to strike out in Walter Johnsons time frame. Same goes for Walter Johnsons K's going up with more swing from the heels batters, that Nolan Ryan got to face. IMO, Walter Johnson would have the K record hands down if he pitched in Nolan Ryans days in MLB. Big horse with a smooth side arm delivery to go with the rubber arm he had.

There is so many things that factor with the different time frames and conditions with all the intangibles of baseball that it is really hard to compare any pitchers though. I do firmly believe that Pedro really misses the boat if you worm hole him to any time frame that requires a +300 IP workload with the 3 day rest.

bagwell368
03-09-2009, 12:43 PM
I'll always ride my #1 horse, Nolan Ryan in these polls. Like I have said before, I truly believe if you could place Nolan Ryan on a equal team against any of the great pitchers, that he would still walk away with his .526% winning percentage at seasons end and would be about a lock for it with career wins against any of the greats. 27 years of gas is hard to beat.

I guess everyone deserves a blind spot, and Nolan Ryan is yours.

Nolan Ryan's winning percentage wasn't much above his teams unlike many other greats such as Pedro, RC, RJ, Maddux...

His career ERA+ is dismal, even if it was double of what it was over 100, he would still be below a Seaver.

His results in Awards such as MVP and Cy Young were far from notable.

There is nothing but longevity, and 1 no hitter every 100 starts or so to recommend him. It's the other 99 games I am worried about.

He might have the record for most K's, but he also holds the record for most BB's and by a larger % that he holds the K record over the next guy - and in terms of K/IP, he's not 1st, 2nd, or 3rd.

I can name 20-25 pitchers I would much rather go to war with then Ryan.


Who could really tell how much Nolan Ryans walk rate would drop with the bigger strike zone

Oh cut it out! Forget WJ's time. Bring Ryan to the AL after 1986, and especially after 1998 - let's see the K/BB ratio balloon the wrong way. Plus better hitters then in Ryan's day, watch the ERA bloat. Not an elite pitcher. A great thrower, a great long lived thrower. But as the best pitcher of all time? No.

kmenace09
03-09-2009, 12:53 PM
^You could thing of that many pitchers you would rather have than Nolan Ryan? The guy is arguable the best pitcher of all time, greater than Randy Johnson(though Randy was sure fun to watch back in his Seattle days..).

bagwell368
03-09-2009, 05:33 PM
^You could thing of that many pitchers you would rather have than Nolan Ryan? The guy is arguable the best pitcher of all time, greater than Randy Johnson(though Randy was sure fun to watch back in his Seattle days..).

In no important way besides career IP is Nolan Ryan in the top 20 all time. I have ripped every fingernail from his pitching hand a few times in this group, you'll have to delve to find some.

#1. 9 years led his league in BB's, his all time lead for BB's is so huge, it'll never be touched. That more then blows away any credit he his due for his K's. Embarrassing.

#2. His 111 ERA+ is god awful compared to anyone else under consideration. Rick Reuschel had a better ERA+ for God's sake. There are good pitchers in the 112-110 range, even HOF'er but none other has fans that dare suggest them as the best of all time.

#3. His lame winning %, is even below Blyleven who played for more worse teams then Ryan. Kevin Brown who played for a mixed bag of teams has a much higher winning %, he's no HOF either.

#4. He is 674th all time in MVP voting, and 25th in Cy Young. But he played his entire career with the Cy awarded in both leagues. Alexander, Grove, WJ, Feller, Spahn, Roberts, Young, Mathewson and other greater pitchers never had it, or had it very late in their careers. Where would he be if it was given out since 1900? 45th-50th?

A product of the media and over zealous fans that understand a side show freak, but not what pitching is all about. You can have him. You'll lose.

A-Rod the QB
03-09-2009, 06:15 PM
Randy Johnson. He is 44 years old and still pitching in the Majors. And pitching well

vick27m
03-09-2009, 07:22 PM
nolan ryan hands down

bagwell368
03-09-2009, 08:58 PM
nolan ryan hands down

only in dreamland. RJ is a far greater pitcher. By a mile, there is no way in fact that Ryan is better, except IP. And anyone that has tossed as much as RJ has clearly gone over the threshold of IP (4039 - 39th all time) that anyone should have to pass to be judged.


Tell me how many seasons Ryan had over 16 wins - and he worked in 4 man rotations his whole career (10 times 34-41 starts), come on, tell me. Now tell me how many RJ has over 16 (he worked in 5 man rotations his whole career - 11 times 32-35 GS)?

16 wins or more:

5 for Nolan in 27 years, 10 for RJ in 21 years.

How about over 22?

0 for Ryan; 1 for RJ

There are opinions, and there is knowledge. Anyone can say Ryan is the best, but there is no objective proof of it - nothing, and I saw plenty of the guy, and while he was impressive, he was also out of control easily hittable bad control junk at other times.

bagwell368
03-09-2009, 10:05 PM
I posted this in my poll of best SP since 1925

I listed the top 10 IMO, and then noted Koufax, Ryan, Carl Hubbell, Jim Palmer, Steve Carlton, Gaylord Perry, Ford, Marichal, Jenkins would be the next group. This list does not include WJ, Alexander, Mathewson, Young, or dead ball guys that croak Ryan as well. Check the stats:

IP (Pedro and Koufax have to be nicked on the basis of low IP, so toss them out)

PRAR - Runs saved compared to replacement level pitcher

ERA+

DERA - ERA with the defense removed.

Name - IP - PRAR ER+ DERA

Pedro 2782 1205 154 3.17
RClen 4916 2034 143 3.18
RJnsn 4039 1632 137 3.49
LGrov 3940 1431 148 3.38
GMdx 5008 1707 132 3.67
TSevr 4782 1545 127 3.69
BGibs 3884 1243 127 3.75
BFellr 3827 1224 122 4.00
Sphn 5243 1554 118 4.02

Ryan 5386 0881 111 4.21

So..... Pedro saved 1/3 more runs in his career in 1/2 the IP of Ryan - chuckle

RJ saved twice the runs in 1350 less IP then Ryan.

Ouch guys.... the worst runs saved, the worst ERA+, the worst DERA..... face it, a HOF yes, a character, a Marlboro man legend (who popped that idiot 3B), but I'm into my 5th or 6th five man rotation all time teams before I go near this guy.

Manatoo
03-10-2009, 10:46 AM
The big unit, unless Nolan Ryan killed a bird that i don't know about.

dodgerdave
03-10-2009, 12:31 PM
Ryan's low winning percentage is also a factor of playing for teams with low offensive run support.

dodgerdave
03-10-2009, 01:07 PM
There are opinions, and there is knowledge. Anyone can say Ryan is the best, but there is no objective proof of it - nothing, and I saw plenty of the guy, and while he was impressive, he was also out of control easily hittable bad control junk at other times.


Nolan Ryan:
BA against: .204 (perhaps the best in history).
OBP against: .307 (relatively unimpressive)
SLG against: .298 (extremely impressive)
OPS against: .606

Randy Johnson:
BA against: .220
OBP against: .297
SLG against: .350 (admittedly, Nolan owns him here)
OPS against: .646

But they both pitched in different eras. I wish there was a way to neutralize these stats.

Bill James ranks Nolan Ryan as the 24th best pitcher of all time.

bagwell368
03-10-2009, 01:24 PM
Ryan's low winning percentage is also a factor of playing for teams with low offensive run support.




Yes, that's been noted by me and thousands of other people over the years - and on PSD. The only way to examine this question is to examine his winning % compared to his teams when he doesn't get a decision (over a career - in a single year the number can bump around a lot). When doing that Mr. Ryan doesn't look like the #1 SP of all time. It would be easier for him to be on bad teams with bad pitchers to put distance between himself and them for fatter numbers. But where are they???

'70 Mets 83-79 -- Ryan 07-11 - bogus
'71 Mets 83-79 -- Ryan 10-14 - bogus
'72 Angels 75-80 - Ryan 19-16 - good
'77 Angels 74-88 - Ryan 19-16 - good
'78 Angels 87-75 - Ryan 10-13 - bogus
'79 Angles 88-74 - Ryan 16-14 - expected
'80 Astros 93-70 - Ryan 11-10 - below average
'84 Astros 80-82 - Ryan 12-11 - average
'85 Astros 83-79 - Ryan 10-12 - below average
'87 Astros 76-86 - Ryan 08-16 - dreadful
'88 Astros 82-80 - Ryan 12-11 - average

None of those teams are awful, several were quite good, but what did Ryan do above and beyond that could be expected by the #1 SP of all time? Nothing.

He had a few better years: '73, '74, '81 (partial season), '91 (partial season). He also had worse years such as '68, '92, '93 (partials).

The guy is who he is - I'm not trying to take anything away from him. But the notion of his as the best pitcher is a fraud, total and ultimate fraud. He is THE most overrated pitcher of all time.

bagwell368
03-10-2009, 03:15 PM
Nolan Ryan:
BA against: .204 (perhaps the best in history).
OBP against: .307 (relatively unimpressive)
SLG against: .298 (extremely impressive)
OPS against: .606

Randy Johnson:
BA against: .220
OBP against: .297
SLG against: .350 (admittedly, Nolan owns him here)
OPS against: .646

But they both pitched in different eras. I wish there was a way to neutralize these stats.

Bill James ranks Nolan Ryan as the 24th best pitcher of all time.


Dude, Nolan Ryan pitched at the tail end of the worst offensive era since 1920. He was done before the steroid age got going. I can find scores of pitchers before that time that crush Ryan's raw numbers (not BA, he was hard to hit, but he also had a heck of a time finding the plate). Try adjusting them for who they faced, then come back....

Use common sense, nobody with that low (read poor) an ERA+ mark as Ryan has is going to do well in BA, OBP, and SLG against vs. league average compared to better pitchers.

Lets see:

DERA (defense removed ERA, EQ'd for all time to 4.50 ERA average) Ryan 4.21. THat is 6.5% better then average, so his defenses (even on these alleged poor teams helped him out).

RAA (runs saved compared to league average pitcher) 111 in his career. In 5386 IP he saved 111 runs over average, and you are touting him for greatest of all time???

Johan Sanata saved 232 (more then double) in 1543 IP (less then a 1/3)

Seaver save 458 (more then 4 times as many) in 600 less IP.

Oh... he pitched too long... OK, so lets look at peak

Seaver had 12 years 20+ RAA - Ryan had 6

Seaver had 1 year less then +2 saved, Ryan had 13 years below a +2, and 5 below a -11. Uggh! Think about this. 11 of Ryan's 27 years he gave up more runs then an average pitcher in his leagues, in some years a lot more. Double UGHGH!

bagwell368
03-10-2009, 03:46 PM
But they both pitched in different eras. I wish there was a way to neutralize these stats.

Bill James ranks Nolan Ryan as the 24th best pitcher of all time.


There is: look at the league BA/OBP/SLG - it was a good deal higher in RJ's time.

BJ has not upgraded his standings since 2000, in that time RJ, RC, Maddux, have all easily pulled in ahead of Ryan. I believe RC and Maddux may have already listed ahead of Ryan by then, but probably not RJ since many of his great seasons came after 2000 and he took longer to get going then the other two. And of course Pedro - if you take his IP as high enough he destroys not only Ryan, but on a per inning basis all hurlers ever. But since you do have to count IP then Pedro joins the Koufax group, and is easily better at it then Koufax was.

But if you are going to quote James, then there is no standing to list Ryan as #1. If he is #24 or #25 (several people I respect have him at #27), its a long way from #1.

NoQuarter
03-22-2009, 11:23 PM
Johnson in a landslide.