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View Full Version : If the Indians don't re-sign CC



Jpripper88
06-01-2008, 07:31 PM
would they make a serious push for Francisco Rodriguez? It seems that if CC doesn't come back after this season that the Indians would still have a chance to be a solid team (maybe), but would still have a hole at the backend of the bullpen. Signing K-Rod could make the Indians pen the best on baseball again with Betancourt, Perez, Koby, and Lewis in front of him. Barring no deals this season, the rotation would still be solid with Carmona, Lee, Westbrook, Laffey and a FA or Sowers.

However, if Shapiro knows now (and I think he does, one way or the other) there is no real shot at re-signing CC then he needs to deal him at the deadline if the team is 7+ games out of the playoffs. They would get a hell of a return and have a say in where he ends up. I wouldn't be shocked that if the Dodgers are in serious contention come the deadline that they would give up LaRoche or Chin-Lung Hu, Billingsley and Broxton for Sabathia.

erich72
06-01-2008, 07:48 PM
I figured it out! We are playing for a better draft pick next year. I hear there is a 22 year old college kid that has one helluva 89mph fastball. We are so lame.

bigalow80
06-01-2008, 08:05 PM
question, this is probably not legal or possible but could it be realistic for the indians to trade c.c. by the deadline and then re-sign him when he is a fa? kind of one of those, hey we aren't going to win this year but we can get great talent for you next year

Jpripper88
06-01-2008, 08:48 PM
question, this is probably not legal or possible but could it be realistic for the indians to trade c.c. by the deadline and then re-sign him when he is a fa? kind of one of those, hey we aren't going to win this year but we can get great talent for you next year

Yep, definitely allowed, but it wouldn't happen with CC. The Indians actually did that with Kenny Lofton in 1997. However it was done just a few weeks into the season.

If the Indians traded CC they would lose any advantage he would give them in negotiations in regards to a
"homegrown" discount. Even if this did happen the Indians would still have to give up their 2009 1st rounder, plus a supplemental pick to the team they traded CC to. So they would get prospects for him, but then have to give up most likely a 1st and 2nd rounder in 2009 to sign him. This means they would have to get better value then those picks for the trade (even with a "homegrown" discount from CC) to actually make sense. As it stands now that would be a top 10 pick and if they trade CC you would have to think it would be hard to move past the 15 spot, meaning that 1st rounder would have a lot of value, despite the Indians recent success with 1st rounders and the fact that CC 10 years ago is the last successful top draft pick.

Tragedy
06-01-2008, 10:53 PM
Yep, definitely allowed, but it wouldn't happen with CC. The Indians actually did that with Kenny Lofton in 1997. However it was done just a few weeks into the season.

If the Indians traded CC they would lose any advantage he would give them in negotiations in regards to a
"homegrown" discount. Even if this did happen the Indians would still have to give up their 2009 1st rounder, plus a supplemental pick to the team they traded CC to. So they would get prospects for him, but then have to give up most likely a 1st and 2nd rounder in 2009 to sign him. This means they would have to get better value then those picks for the trade (even with a "homegrown" discount from CC) to actually make sense. As it stands now that would be a top 10 pick and if they trade CC you would have to think it would be hard to move past the 15 spot, meaning that 1st rounder would have a lot of value, despite the Indians recent success with 1st rounders and the fact that CC 10 years ago is the last successful top draft pick.
If you're trading C.C., you're obviously going to get good talented young prospects. Those prospects will likely be guys in AA or AAA, so they'll be so much further advanced than the draft picks you'd lose trying to sign C.C. at the end of the season.

duncky1188
06-01-2008, 11:20 PM
There needs to be something shocking happen. That could be trading C.C. as long we get something for really good for him.

Jpripper88
06-02-2008, 12:23 AM
If you're trading C.C., you're obviously going to get good talented young prospects. Those prospects will likely be guys in AA or AAA, so they'll be so much further advanced than the draft picks you'd lose trying to sign C.C. at the end of the season.

Right that is what you would assume, but at the same rate, because of the fact that he is not signed past this year and the team aquiring him would be giving him a monster deal, his value is lower. I would expect 3 B-/B/B+ prospects, with at least 2 in AA or AAA, or 2 A-/A prospects in AA or higher. However, if the do that trade and stay where they are (or near where they are) in the standings they have to give up a top 10 pick and a 2nd rounder or a sandwich pick to the team they traded CC to in order to sign him. My point was that this wouldn't work because the Indians wouldn't gain much value by trading CC because of the loss of draft picks with resigning him unless he still gave them a huge "homegrown" discount. If they are going to get a chance at getting any discount they are better off keeping him this year and trying to re-sign him then trading him and hoping he would still give them a discount.

In all actuality there isn't much of a chance of him giving them a realistic discount even if he stays through this year and there is certainly an even lower chance if he was traded this season, so it wasn't a very good idea in the first place.

IndiansFan337
06-02-2008, 12:51 PM
would they make a serious push for Francisco Rodriguez? It seems that if CC doesn't come back after this season that the Indians would still have a chance to be a solid team (maybe), but would still have a hole at the backend of the bullpen. Signing K-Rod could make the Indians pen the best on baseball again with Betancourt, Perez, Koby, and Lewis in front of him. Barring no deals this season, the rotation would still be solid with Carmona, Lee, Westbrook, Laffey and a FA or Sowers.

However, if Shapiro knows now (and I think he does, one way or the other) there is no real shot at re-signing CC then he needs to deal him at the deadline if the team is 7+ games out of the playoffs. They would get a hell of a return and have a say in where he ends up. I wouldn't be shocked that if the Dodgers are in serious contention come the deadline that they would give up LaRoche or Chin-Lung Hu, Billingsley and Broxton for Sabathia.

We won't go after K-Rod. He wants a record-breaking deal, for > $15 million per year. We aren't going to make a closer our highest paid player. And we aren't going to pay > $15 million per year for a 1 inning pitcher if we wouldn't give that money to CC Sabathia.

EdTheRevelator
06-02-2008, 04:48 PM
You're not going to get a "hellva package" for C.C. No team will trade their top talents for a rental, not even a desperate one. We might as well keep him, because we still have a chance. Look at what the Twins got for Santana. The Indians would get a LOT less than that.

IndiansFan337
06-02-2008, 09:17 PM
You're not going to get a "hellva package" for C.C. No team will trade their top talents for a rental, not even a desperate one. We might as well keep him, because we still have a chance. Look at what the Twins got for Santana. The Indians would get a LOT less than that.

Well, that's not entirely true. You have to find the most desperate partner though, if you do want to move him. Like the Expos when we dealt them Colon for Phillips, Lee & some kid in A ball named Sizemore.

But, as you stated, we most likely would receive less than Minnesota did for Santana. But they didn't ripped off at all. That leadoff hitter that they got is amazing & he's only 22.

Also, if we were to trade him, the team acquiring him would probably only complete the deal if they could get him to agree to an extension during the 72-hour period. Teams don't want to rent big-name players like that. They want to lock them up long-term. That is what the Mets did with Santana too.

EdTheRevelator
06-02-2008, 09:36 PM
Well, that's not entirely true. You have to find the most desperate partner though, if you do want to move him. Like the Expos when we dealt them Colon for Phillips, Lee & some kid in A ball named Sizemore.

But, as you stated, we most likely would receive less than Minnesota did for Santana. But they didn't ripped off at all. That leadoff hitter that they got is amazing & he's only 22.

Also, if we were to trade him, the team acquiring him would probably only complete the deal if they could get him to agree to an extension during the 72-hour period. Teams don't want to rent big-name players like that. They want to lock them up long-term. That is what the Mets did with Santana too.


The Expos situation was COMPLETELY different - there was a chance the franchise was going to fold, so they went for broke and traded everything.

Funny you bring it up though, because it was the same GM for both deals - Omar Minya.

IndiansFan337
06-02-2008, 10:10 PM
The Expos situation was COMPLETELY different - there was a chance the franchise was going to fold, so they went for broke and traded everything.

Funny you bring it up though, because it was the same GM for both deals - Omar Minya.

True, but I don't think Minaya is a fool. Delgado's in the last year of his contract. He wouldn't bring in Hafner with all that guaranteed money.

Yes, they were in win-at-all-cost mode. And that is probably the only reason that the Indians traded Colon that summer. Anyhow, it would take a desperate team similar to the Expos of that summer to pry away CC this year.

Brooklyn22
06-11-2008, 09:57 PM
It might be early and a little too "reaching for the clouds", but from a Cubs fan standpoint. Who or what would make all you Indian fans happy if we were to trade for him. Buster Olney has said today that if the Indians put C.C. on the block, the Cubs will be the most aggressive team after him. So again i ask seriously what would it take from the cubs to get C.C.

I might start with a package of Matt Murton, Eric Patterson, Sean Marshall, and maybe Ceda. But only if he signs a long term deal before the end of the season

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
06-11-2008, 10:15 PM
It would be interesting to see what the Cubs would offer I'm sure it would be alot of prospects and possibly one expiring contract.

cle12152433
06-11-2008, 10:31 PM
I have done my research and listened to alot of analysts and here is my conclusion.

Our offer to C.C. can bump up to a MAX of 20 mil per year (4 yr deal).

ESPN and others have said that the Tribe can trade Sabathia to the Yankees for Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Robinson Cano (I think CLE would have to throw in another player.)

There is a possibility that Peralta will be traded as well.

Hafner will not get traded NO WAY. He has too much of a lucrative contract to have only 4 HR's, and no team wants to invest money on a .212 hitter who has been in decline each year.

At the end of year, the following players will most likely leave:
P Joe Borowski, P Paul Byrd, 3B Casey Blake, P C.C. Sabathia*, P Scott Elarton, 3B Andy Marte*, LF David Delluci*, P Rick Bauer.

*C.C. may not be around this off-season, and im not sure Shapiro plans to make Andy Marte a long term player. With the emergence of Ben Francisco and Shin-Soo Choo, Franklin Gutierrez will be the 4th outfielder, making Dellucci expendable. Cleveland could also look at a power hitting bat in the OF. Should that be the case, Gutierrez could also be dealt.

Cleveland will be sellers at the deadline, and they could have alot of cap-room this off-season to make some moves (especially in the bullpen).

Based on what I have said, there will be alot of room for pitching, and right now Adam Miller will be the only Triple A pitcher who can play at the MLB level, so I think Shapiro knows what he is doing. Don't look for him to acquire any major league ready talent for Sabathia @ the deadline. (With Colon, the only major league ready player he got was Lee Stevens, so this Sabathia deal looks to start a time of re re-building (yes I meant to type that) again, but don't expect it to be as long as the 2002-2006 time span. Cleveland could very well contend in 2009 with a productive off-season!

Jpripper88
06-12-2008, 02:27 AM
It would be interesting to see what the Cubs would offer I'm sure it would be alot of prospects and possibly one expiring contract.

Expiring contract? This is baseball not basketball. I am confused.

Jpripper88
06-12-2008, 02:30 AM
I have done my research and listened to alot of analysts and here is my conclusion.

Our offer to C.C. can bump up to a MAX of 20 mil per year (4 yr deal).

ESPN and others have said that the Tribe can trade Sabathia to the Yankees for Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Robinson Cano (I think CLE would have to throw in another player.)

There is a possibility that Peralta will be traded as well.

Hafner will not get traded NO WAY. He has too much of a lucrative contract to have only 4 HR's, and no team wants to invest money on a .212 hitter who has been in decline each year.

At the end of year, the following players will most likely leave:
P Joe Borowski, P Paul Byrd, 3B Casey Blake, P C.C. Sabathia*, P Scott Elarton, 3B Andy Marte*, LF David Delluci*, P Rick Bauer.

*C.C. may not be around this off-season, and im not sure Shapiro plans to make Andy Marte a long term player. With the emergence of Ben Francisco and Shin-Soo Choo, Franklin Gutierrez will be the 4th outfielder, making Dellucci expendable. Cleveland could also look at a power hitting bat in the OF. Should that be the case, Gutierrez could also be dealt.

Cleveland will be sellers at the deadline, and they could have alot of cap-room this off-season to make some moves (especially in the bullpen).

Based on what I have said, there will be alot of room for pitching, and right now Adam Miller will be the only Triple A pitcher who can play at the MLB level, so I think Shapiro knows what he is doing. Don't look for him to acquire any major league ready talent for Sabathia @ the deadline. (With Colon, the only major league ready player he got was Lee Stevens, so this Sabathia deal looks to start a time of re re-building (yes I meant to type that) again, but don't expect it to be as long as the 2002-2006 time span. Cleveland could very well contend in 2009 with a productive off-season!

There is no cap. If the Indians do not sign CC (I assume they will not) then I will be very dissapointed because there were not high value, high investment draft picks and I doubt they sign anyone that is a high value FA. I have no idea what the strategy is for the Indians at this point.

IndiansFan337
06-12-2008, 07:56 AM
It might be early and a little too "reaching for the clouds", but from a Cubs fan standpoint. Who or what would make all you Indian fans happy if we were to trade for him. Buster Olney has said today that if the Indians put C.C. on the block, the Cubs will be the most aggressive team after him. So again i ask seriously what would it take from the cubs to get C.C.

I might start with a package of Matt Murton, Eric Patterson, Sean Marshall, and maybe Ceda. But only if he signs a long term deal before the end of the season

I saw that chat ESPN.com has about ChiSox vs. Cubs, and they mentioned 2-3 times that the Cubs could go hard after CC if/when he's put on the market.

We wouldn't trade CC for anything less than Rich Hill, Felix Pie, & 1-2 others. Wuertz may be an option. I'm sure we would also inquire about A, AA & AAA talent. I saw them list 4-5 names in that chat, but not being a Cubs prospect follower, the only name that I noticed was SP Jeff Samadzija, as he was a football player too at Notre Dame.

I don't think Shapiro does a trade unless he gets AA or higher talent back, because otherwise he can just as easily attempt to re sign CC this winter & get some extra young talent back in the draft instead of acquiring it via trade.

jlohm1
06-12-2008, 12:38 PM
It'll b interesting to c.

IndiansFan337
06-12-2008, 01:49 PM
The only way CC's value will increase from what it was after last season, when we attempted to work out an extension with him, will be if we get into the postseason & he dominates in the playoffs. With that being said, he still should have offers from anywhere between $100-110 million over 5-6 years.

Mouth_For_War
06-12-2008, 02:00 PM
Again, I really don't think the amount of money is the issue with C.C., it's the number of years he'll want on the contract. I just don't see the Indians giving him anymore than 4 with an option for a 5th.

sager729
06-12-2008, 02:20 PM
It might be early and a little too "reaching for the clouds", but from a Cubs fan standpoint. Who or what would make all you Indian fans happy if we were to trade for him. Buster Olney has said today that if the Indians put C.C. on the block, the Cubs will be the most aggressive team after him. So again i ask seriously what would it take from the cubs to get C.C.

I might start with a package of Matt Murton, Eric Patterson, Sean Marshall, and maybe Ceda. But only if he signs a long term deal before the end of the season

If Cleveland took that trade proposed there from the Cubs I would be jumping up and down as a White Sox fan. The Cubs would have to give up more than that to get C.C. And the Yankees trade proposal will never happen. You are not going to get Cano, Hughes and Kennedy. The Yanks wouldn't give up Hughes for Santana, why would they do it for C.C. I think the Yanks will go hard after Sabathia and I think you could get Kennedy, Cano and Tabata. I hope not becuase I don't want to see Cano with the Indians. I say they just let him walk into FA and take the 2 draft picks.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
06-12-2008, 02:46 PM
Expiring contract? This is baseball not basketball. I am confused.

A player thats contract is up after the season like CC.

Jpripper88
06-12-2008, 08:13 PM
A player thats contract is up after the season like CC.

I understand what it means for a contract to expire, but what value would that have for the Indians? That is what I was confused by.

Jpripper88
06-12-2008, 08:31 PM
I saw that chat ESPN.com has about ChiSox vs. Cubs, and they mentioned 2-3 times that the Cubs could go hard after CC if/when he's put on the market.

We wouldn't trade CC for anything less than Rich Hill, Felix Pie, & 1-2 others. Wuertz may be an option. I'm sure we would also inquire about A, AA & AAA talent. I saw them list 4-5 names in that chat, but not being a Cubs prospect follower, the only name that I noticed was SP Jeff Samadzija, as he was a football player too at Notre Dame.

I don't think Shapiro does a trade unless he gets AA or higher talent back, because otherwise he can just as easily attempt to re sign CC this winter & get some extra young talent back in the draft instead of acquiring it via trade.

I don't care for Pie, but if there was a possible deal with the Cubs I would want it to be centered around Josh Vitters. I doubt they would trade him, but I would love if we could get Marmol. A trade of CC for Vitters and Marmol would be awesome IMO. Marmol instantly is the closer and I think that really strengthens the pen. Vitters could be ready by mid 2009 and be our 3B (even though I still like Hodges, Vitters is a potential 70 hitter and is better defensively) of the future. If they won't trade Marmol then I would try something like CC for Vitters, Jose Ceda, and Donald Veal.

hrtbrokenbrowne
06-12-2008, 11:42 PM
Do you guys really think its likely that we will get multiple major league ready players for a two-three month rental of CC? I think we could get lucky if the Yankee's start making a move and the fact that the Red Sox suddenly are dealing with injuries that maybe New York will pull the trigger make a deal that includes Phil Hughes, on STO they were talking about that. But getting multiple high level prospects that are being thrown around seem pretty dubious to me. One a side note I really dont think CC would be successful in the New York environment though. Thats just a gut feeling for me, but I dont see him being successful with that NY media, but I could be wrong.

Brooklyn22
06-13-2008, 12:58 AM
I would give up Vitters for C.C. i am just not ready to part with Marmol-ade just yet. In a lot of cubs fans eyes, they would not give Marmol up for anyone less then C.C. and Grady. Either way, I would do a Vitters, Ceda, and a prospect. But only in a deal like Santana got. Some sort of 72 hour signing window. What do yall think of that

Humongo
06-13-2008, 01:14 AM
CC will get more than Santana since Santana forced the Twins to deal him right on that date. The Indians have more leverage than the Cubs, and it'll take more than Vitters, Ceda and a prospect, unless that prospect was like freaking Jay Bruce.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
06-13-2008, 02:51 AM
I understand what it means for a contract to expire, but what value would that have for the Indians? That is what I was confused by.

We wouldn't have to resign that player causing us to free up some money. Or does this not work?

Jpripper88
06-13-2008, 08:25 AM
We wouldn't have to resign that player causing us to free up some money. Or does this not work?

No, in baseball there is not a salary cap. Salaries don't have to match up in trades. The Indians could (would) just trade CC for minor leaguers.

Jpripper88
06-13-2008, 08:30 AM
I would give up Vitters for C.C. i am just not ready to part with Marmol-ade just yet. In a lot of cubs fans eyes, they would not give Marmol up for anyone less then C.C. and Grady. Either way, I would do a Vitters, Ceda, and a prospect. But only in a deal like Santana got. Some sort of 72 hour signing window. What do yall think of that

Like I said I doubt the Cubs would do it with Vitters and Marmol. I think it is less likely in season, just because if they make a trade to really solidify themselves I doubt they would want to take that big of a hit to their bullpen. If they would do that then I say pull the trigger right away.

Vitters and Ceda I still think would have to be accompanied by a good prospect (Donald Veal) and not a throw in, for it to work. The thing that works in the Indians favor with the Cubs is the fact they have such a talented player in Vitters at a position they have an All Star player blocking him, who is signed through 2011. They can afford to give him up much easier.

I think a signing window may happen, but really I don't see it as being necessary for the Cubs.

Jpripper88
06-13-2008, 08:33 AM
Do you guys really think its likely that we will get multiple major league ready players for a two-three month rental of CC? I think we could get lucky if the Yankee's start making a move and the fact that the Red Sox suddenly are dealing with injuries that maybe New York will pull the trigger make a deal that includes Phil Hughes, on STO they were talking about that. But getting multiple high level prospects that are being thrown around seem pretty dubious to me. One a side note I really dont think CC would be successful in the New York environment though. Thats just a gut feeling for me, but I dont see him being successful with that NY media, but I could be wrong.

I think we will get 2-4 very good and very close to ML players. However, the focus should be on how good they can be (are) and not how close they are because this team needs talent over 2009 production. If we trade CC the focus should be on the 2010 season.

IndiansFan337
06-13-2008, 08:36 AM
You are not going to get Cano, Hughes and Kennedy. The Yanks wouldn't give up Hughes for Santana, why would they do it for C.C. I think the Yanks will go hard after Sabathia and I think you could get Kennedy, Cano and Tabata. I hope not becuase I don't want to see Cano with the Indians. I say they just let him walk into FA and take the 2 draft picks.
They may do it for CC because Hughes looked terrible this year & they are sitting in 3rd place, one game above .500.

And they would have the resources to re sign him. Pettitte is likely gone after this year, Mussina possibly as well. So the Yanks are going to need some more SP, especially is Hughes/Kennedy can't get it together.


Do you guys really think its likely that we will get multiple major league ready players for a two-three month rental of CC?
Nobody is going to rent CC. IF any team trades for him, they will have to agree to an extension before doing so. They will insist upon doing so.


We wouldn't have to resign that player causing us to free up some money. Or does this not work?
There is no cap is MLB, unless the team's front office specifies one for themself. So if we have a self-imposed cap, that money would obviously be going away from CC & could be spread out over more players.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
06-13-2008, 03:07 PM
No, in baseball there is not a salary cap. Salaries don't have to match up in trades. The Indians could (would) just trade CC for minor leaguers.

Oh thats right I forgot about the no salary cap. Ok cool makes sense thanks.

IndiansFan337
06-13-2008, 03:18 PM
Jpripper, I would also love to get Marmol.

But I don't think the Cubs will give him up under hardly any circumstances. He's too important to the team's success.

DmL
06-13-2008, 03:26 PM
The 2 young guys the Cubs would never trade would be Soto and Marmol. So you can cross them off.

I hope we don't trade Vitters, but I could totally see it happen. Oleny said we'd be the most aggressive team seeing this is our best chance in a while to win it all. We'd be willing to deal top prospects, which teams like the Yankees wouldn't. I could see something like this:

Rich Hill (he would be in any big trade for us), Pie (same), Ceda, Veal, Cedeno.

For those who don't know, Rich Hill was a very solid pitcher for us last year. He was bad early on because he had no control. Piniella is quick on the plug, so he was sent down. He is a high K pitcher and people thought of him as our best pitcher last year. Gammons compared him to Zito, the Oakland version.

Pie has been our top prospect forrever, and os 23 years old. He often got comparisons to Carlos Beltran, but he is ver mentally weak. Piniella changed his swing and they are trying to get him into the Kenny Lofton mode. Unbeliveable range as a CF'er. I could see you guys trading him in a deal in the offseason for a good player.

Ceda is a going to be a ML closer, and probably has 2 years to go. He throws 98 and has been compared to Lee Smith. Major control issues though.

Veal was a stud 2 years ago, a bust last year, and this year he has been very good. He was compared to Willis, but scouts didn't believe that. People said it because he is an African American, lefty pitcher, with a deceptive delivery.

And Cedeno would step right in and star at SS or 2b. ML ready with a good bat and great range. Great arm as well.

Jpripper88
06-13-2008, 07:56 PM
The 2 young guys the Cubs would never trade would be Soto and Marmol. So you can cross them off.

I hope we don't trade Vitters, but I could totally see it happen. Oleny said we'd be the most aggressive team seeing this is our best chance in a while to win it all. We'd be willing to deal top prospects, which teams like the Yankees wouldn't. I could see something like this:

Rich Hill (he would be in any big trade for us), Pie (same), Ceda, Veal, Cedeno.

For those who don't know, Rich Hill was a very solid pitcher for us last year. He was bad early on because he had no control. Piniella is quick on the plug, so he was sent down. He is a high K pitcher and people thought of him as our best pitcher last year. Gammons compared him to Zito, the Oakland version.

Pie has been our top prospect forrever, and os 23 years old. He often got comparisons to Carlos Beltran, but he is ver mentally weak. Piniella changed his swing and they are trying to get him into the Kenny Lofton mode. Unbeliveable range as a CF'er. I could see you guys trading him in a deal in the offseason for a good player.

Ceda is a going to be a ML closer, and probably has 2 years to go. He throws 98 and has been compared to Lee Smith. Major control issues though.

Veal was a stud 2 years ago, a bust last year, and this year he has been very good. He was compared to Willis, but scouts didn't believe that. People said it because he is an African American, lefty pitcher, with a deceptive delivery.

And Cedeno would step right in and star at SS or 2b. ML ready with a good bat and great range. Great arm as well.

I would have no interest in Pie for the Indians because he is not needed. I don't think he is much of a prospect anyway and has been way pumped up.

I like Hill, but if I had to choose would rather have Vitters. However, the deal you proposed I would have to take. It would make sense for the Indians to then trade Pie, but I don't think he has much value and with Shapiro's reluctance to trade prospects I don't think he would pull the trigger on anything.

IndiansFan337
06-13-2008, 10:51 PM
Yeah, we definitely don't need anymore OF'ers. So relief pitching, middle INF help & some more SP would be our likely target.

hrtbrokenbrowne
06-14-2008, 02:13 AM
They may do it for CC because Hughes looked terrible this year & they are sitting in 3rd place, one game above .500.

And they would have the resources to re sign him. Pettitte is likely gone after this year, Mussina possibly as well. So the Yanks are going to need some more SP, especially is Hughes/Kennedy can't get it together.


Nobody is going to rent CC. IF any team trades for him, they will have to agree to an extension before doing so. They will insist upon doing so.


There is no cap is MLB, unless the team's front office specifies one for themself. So if we have a self-imposed cap, that money would obviously be going away from CC & could be spread out over more players.

Yeah, I know the team would probably attempt to sign him long term and probably wouldnt do the deal unless a agreement was in place... but the question remains we only have him till the end of this season so essentially we would be only providing him as a rental. I dont think our trading position is nearly as strong as people in here seem to think. I think Atlanta could also be a potential trading partner based upon there pitching woes as of late as well as Yankees and Dodgers.

hoosiercubsfan
06-14-2008, 08:56 AM
Couple things about the Cubs offer. Samardzija would have to waive his no trade rights to be traded. He is on the 40 man roster with a 10 million dollar deal with full no trade rights. So I don't see him going anywhere. Not a chance Marmol is included for anything. He is a very important part of the bullpen. That would be strengthening one area and making a huge dent in another. I can't imagine they will offer anyone that is currently on th 25 man roster unless you will show mercy on us and take Marquis. It will have to be made up of prospects and I fully see Hendry our GM overpaying for him. He is in the last year of his contract with new ownership coming in he will be trying to save his job by winning now.

Jpripper88
06-14-2008, 11:56 AM
Couple things about the Cubs offer. Samardzija would have to waive his no trade rights to be traded. He is on the 40 man roster with a 10 million dollar deal with full no trade rights. So I don't see him going anywhere. Not a chance Marmol is included for anything. He is a very important part of the bullpen. That would be strengthening one area and making a huge dent in another. I can't imagine they will offer anyone that is currently on th 25 man roster unless you will show mercy on us and take Marquis. It will have to be made up of prospects and I fully see Hendry our GM overpaying for him. He is in the last year of his contract with new ownership coming in he will be trying to save his job by winning now.

Hopefully Samardzija is not included. He is not a very good prospect right now. He cannot strike people out and has serious command issues. If he comes over then I hope he is more of a throw in.

IndiansFan337
06-14-2008, 12:27 PM
Guys, I just threw Samadzija's name in there because during that chat he was the only prospect name that I recognized....There's no reason to believe he is a centerpiece or even be considered if we were to trade CC to the Cubs.

Personally, I still don't think CC is going anywhere this summer.

MelkyNYY
06-14-2008, 12:57 PM
Don't want to burst your respective bubbles, but Robinson Cano is not going anywhere. The Yankees have no 2B able to take over and they aren't selling low on Cano.

And if we didn't trade hughes, Kennedy, Cano for Santana we aren't pulling that trigger for C.C

sorry

hoosiercubsfan
06-14-2008, 04:58 PM
Don't want to burst your respective bubbles, but Robinson Cano is not going anywhere. The Yankees have no 2B able to take over and they aren't selling low on Cano.

And if we didn't trade hughes, Kennedy, Cano for Santana we aren't pulling that trigger for C.C

sorry

Especially when they can wait till the end of the season and try and sign him then. That way it only costs the money for the contract and first round draft pick.

Jpripper88
06-14-2008, 07:00 PM
Especially when they can wait till the end of the season and try and sign him then. That way it only costs the money for the contract and first round draft pick.

Well, but then they don't have him for this season and they have to outbid other teams. The Cubs will have a ton of money (they have already said they could add as much as $15 million through trades this season) to spend because of the new private owner (a good chance it is Mark Cuban).

IndiansFan337
06-14-2008, 11:41 PM
Don't want to burst your respective bubbles, but Robinson Cano is not going anywhere. The Yankees have no 2B able to take over and they aren't selling low on Cano.

And if we didn't trade hughes, Kennedy, Cano for Santana we aren't pulling that trigger for C.C
sorry


Especially when they can wait till the end of the season and try and sign him then. That way it only costs the money for the contract and first round draft pick.

The Yanks aren't in it to save money. If they dealt for CC it'd be to get to the playoffs, and hopefully advance. They want to build up some of their youngsters, but they also want to win now. That is why they would possibly trade some parts for Sabathia that they wouldn't for Santana.

Also, they thought there offer was the best on the table for Santana. That was against the Mets & Red Sox offers. If the Cubs jump into a Sabathia scenario, and possibly the Cards, Phillies, Astros, Dodgers, etc. the Yanks would probably have to offer more to think that they had the best offer for the Indians on the table.

MelkyNYY
06-15-2008, 09:54 PM
The Yanks aren't in it to save money.

This is 2008. We are in it to save money or we would have gotten Santana. It wasn't the prospects that caused the deal to nosedive, it was the money.

If
they dealt for CC it'd be to get to the playoffs, and hopefully advance.

We don't care about advancing. CC doesn't guarantee a world series, that is what we want. Why sell the farm and pay some fat inconsistent pitcher so much money when we didn't do the same for his better version.


They want to build up some of their youngsters, but they also want to win now. That is why they would possibly trade some parts for Sabathia that they wouldn't for Santana.

Sure. Have Igawa, Karstens, Rasner, and Corona.


Also, they thought there offer was the best on the table for Santana. That was against the Mets & Red Sox offers. If the Cubs jump into a Sabathia scenario, and possibly the Cards, Phillies, Astros, Dodgers, etc. the Yanks would probably have to offer more to think that they had the best offer for the Indians on the table.

No we HAD the best offer for Santana. The problem was the Contract.

IndiansFan337
06-16-2008, 08:28 AM
This is 2008. We are in it to save money or we would have gotten Santana. It wasn't the prospects that caused the deal to nosedive, it was the money.
Obviously it wasn't, otherwise the NYY would have received a 72 hr window to discuss an extension with Santana. And that never happened.


we don't care about advancing. CC doesn't guarantee a world series, that is what we want. Why sell the farm and pay some fat inconsistent pitcher so much money when we didn't do the same for his better version.
CC surely does not guarantee a WS at all. But he gives you a much better chance of getting to the postseason, and then anything can happen. Without him or some other key piece getting added, the NYY won't even be making the playoffs this season.

If the Yanks do end up with CC at some point over the next 8 months I will like to see your reaction....If he'll still be some "fat, inconsistent pitcher" or if he'll be the legit ace that NYY have been lacking since Clemens.


Sure. Have Igawa, Karstens, Rasner, and Corona.
Now don't be foolish. :p


No we HAD the best offer for Santana. The problem was the Contract.
Once again, obviously not.

MelkyNYY
06-16-2008, 09:04 AM
The Yankees did not want to commit 6 or 7 years to a pitcher who is afraid to throw his slider. C.C would demand the same, except he is a bigger risk since his conditioning is in question

IndiansFan337
06-16-2008, 10:13 AM
The Yankees did not want to commit 6 or 7 years to a pitcher who is afraid to throw his slider. C.C would demand the same, except he is a bigger risk since his conditioning is in question

The Yanks may not have wanted to commit 6-7 years to a pitcher, but it surely is not for the reason that you specified. Don't look for small flaws that a player may have to try & justify why your team did not get that player.

I don't blame the Yankees one bit for not wanting to commit 6-7 years to a pitcher, I agree with that philosophy 100%. And that is most likely why the Indians are going to lose Sabathia....Some other team will foolishly throw a 6-8 year deal at him, trumping our 4-5 year deal.

MelkyNYY
06-16-2008, 10:31 AM
The Yanks may not have wanted to commit 6-7 years to a pitcher, but it surely is not for the reason that you specified. Don't look for small flaws that a player may have to try & justify why your team did not get that player.

I don't blame the Yankees one bit for not wanting to commit 6-7 years to a pitcher, I agree with that philosophy 100%. And that is most likely why the Indians are going to lose Sabathia....Some other team will foolishly throw a 6-8 year deal at him, trumping our 4-5 year deal.

I'm just stating facts. The rumor was that Sabathia wanted a deal gauranteed for over 5 years. The Yankees did not want a Pavano repeat. They have historically gone against signing pitchers long term. His injury risk (the slider) caused them to back off further.

Jpripper88
06-16-2008, 07:16 PM
The Yankees did not want to commit 6 or 7 years to a pitcher who is afraid to throw his slider. C.C would demand the same, except he is a bigger risk since his conditioning is in question

That is blatantly not true. The Yankees knew all along what kind of deal Santana wanted and they offered multiple packages for him and the right to sign him to the deal he would want.

You keep saying the Yankees had the best deal, but obviously the Twins didn't think so (or they were just hell bent on shipping him to the NL). Just because H.S. says it is the best deal doesn't mean it is. If it was a the best offer and the Twins agreed, you would have gotten a negotiating window, but the Yankees never did. I personally think the Red Sox offers were the best.

I don't understand how you think the Yankees are dumb enough not to know what Santana wanted in the first place when every baseball fan in the world knew. If they felt the price was too high and they weren't going to give him that contract they wouldn't have made the offers they did.

By the way good luck without Wang.

MelkyNYY
06-16-2008, 07:26 PM
That is blatantly not true. The Yankees knew all along what kind of deal Santana wanted and they offered multiple packages for him and the right to sign him to the deal he would want.

You keep saying the Yankees had the best deal, but obviously the Twins didn't think so (or they were just hell bent on shipping him to the NL). Just because H.S. says it is the best deal doesn't mean it is. If it was a the best offer and the Twins agreed, you would have gotten a negotiating window, but the Yankees never did. I personally think the Red Sox offers were the best.

I don't understand how you think the Yankees are dumb enough not to know what Santana wanted in the first place when every baseball fan in the world knew. If they felt the price was too high and they weren't going to give him that contract they wouldn't have made the offers they did.

By the way good luck without Wang.

I'm not concerned. We have a better offense and better prospects than most teams. We aren't going anywhere.

EdTheRevelator
06-16-2008, 07:40 PM
I'm not concerned. We have a better offense and better prospects than most teams. We aren't going anywhere.

Ain't that the truth. Go Rays!:D

MelkyNYY
06-16-2008, 07:46 PM
ALA LoHud




Just spoke to Brian Cashman. If you’re expecting C.C. Sabathia in the Bronx any time soon, don’t hold your breath.

“There is no trade market at the moment,” he said. “I’m not optimistic that something can get done on that front. We have to try and plug this gap internally and that’s not going to be easy.”

Cashman said “there is a window” for Wang to pitch again this season but that it would not be until September.

“Based on what we knew yesterday, we were bracing ourselves for something bad and it’s bad,” he said. “He’s not going to be able to do anything for six weeks.”

You can expect Dan Giese to start against the Reds on Saturday. The Yankees have no plans to rush Dan McCutchen to the majors and they want Ian Kennedy to get at least two starts in the minors before he is activated off the disabled list.

“We lost A-Rod and Posada at the same time and we moved forward,” Cashman said. “A few years ago it was Sheffield and Matsui on the corners. We had Erick Almonte playing shortstop when Derek Jeter hurt his shoulder.”

But replacing a starting pitcher, Cashman admitted, is a more difficult problem.

“The higher up you go in the rotation, the more difficult it becomes,” he said. “You can’t just replace a pitcher like Chien-Ming Wang.”

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/06/16/cashman-there-is-no-trade-market/

so whoever said i was crazy for shooting down trades...can eat it :D

no cc for us!!! Would hate to see Hughes or Kennedy or even Cano in an Indian uni

IndiansFan337
06-16-2008, 10:18 PM
I'm not concerned. We have a better offense and better prospects than most teams. We aren't going anywhere.

Yeah, well they're sitting in 3rd with that offense & those prospects. Now they'll be without there top SP. That's not going to get them into the playoffs.

Regardless of what you think, this definitely makes CC a bigger target for the NYY.

JackieTreehorn
06-16-2008, 11:16 PM
What is up with the NYY entitlement mentality? The Yankees and their fans seem to think that any player will want to play for them, all they need to do is "invite" them. Not true.

CC will not sign with the Yankees regardless of a trade, years, etc. If you know anything about CC, you'd know he is not interested in NY in the least. The only way it happens if he is completely removed from negotiations which is unlikely. Sure he wants to make money, but he also is concerned about his family and being comfortable in his surroundings which equates to stability in the franchise and quality of life.

The NYY are always in flux and with ownership bickering, Cashman in jeopardy, and Girardi unimpressive...why would CC want in? Who cares about history, etc? Look how fast Randy Johnson wanted out of there...

The Cubs and maybe the west coast are more likely if he leaves Cleveland at all. Especially now with Cuban yammering to buy the club, CC would be a perfect asset to help up the sale price.

IndiansFan337
06-17-2008, 12:23 AM
What is up with the NYY entitlement mentality? The Yankees and their fans seem to think that any player will want to play for them, all they need to do is "invite" them. Not true.

CC will not sign with the Yankees regardless of a trade, years, etc. If you know anything about CC, you'd know he is not interested in NY in the least. The only way it happens if he is completely removed from negotiations which is unlikely. Sure he wants to make money, but he also is concerned about his family and being comfortable in his surroundings which equates to stability in the franchise and quality of life.

The NYY are always in flux and with ownership bickering, Cashman in jeopardy, and Girardi unimpressive...why would CC want in? Who cares about history, etc? Look how fast Randy Johnson wanted out of there...

IMO, winning & money are both important to Sabathia. I don't think his family would have a problem living in NY, if he joined the Yankees. And the Yanks can surely provide both the previously mentioned conditions.

Johnson wanted out because he wasn't winning. He wasn't having success there. It was that simple, really. His ERA with the Yanks in his final season in NY was nearly 5.00. And that is not the HOF Randy Johson that we all know. That will have no impact on what decision Sabathia makes.

Sabathia has no control over who we trade him to, only who he signs an extension with. And if someone plops a $100 million contract in front of him & says you have 72 hours to sign this or walk away, that is when things could get very interesting.

JackieTreehorn
06-17-2008, 12:37 PM
IMO, winning & money are both important to Sabathia. I don't think his family would have a problem living in NY, if he joined the Yankees. And the Yanks can surely provide both the previously mentioned conditions.

Johnson wanted out because he wasn't winning. He wasn't having success there. It was that simple, really. His ERA with the Yanks in his final season in NY was nearly 5.00. And that is not the HOF Randy Johson that we all know. That will have no impact on what decision Sabathia makes.

Sabathia has no control over who we trade him to, only who he signs an extension with. And if someone plops a $100 million contract in front of him & says you have 72 hours to sign this or walk away, that is when things could get very interesting.

You are entitled to an opinion on Sabathia but like I said, if you talk to people that actually know CC, you'd have a different opinion. I am not trying to argue and will not drop names but your angle is a tad off.

I also know people from NY that have run into RJ on occasion, when he lived there; the guy was not happy. Sure, his performance was not up to par but, no offense, you are making stuff up here. He flat out hated NY and wanted out and NY accomodated him. Period. Oh, and no kidding it will have no impact. lol It was an example for those NY fans that think everyone wants to be there. :P

Sabathia has no control over who we trade him to, yes. Two things: 1) This is a thread about if he doesn't resign, so we are talking about him walking and 2) (If you want to talk about trades then...) you are wrong to think that CC being involved in the trade will not happen. No team is going to agree to trade for a guy without having a shot to negotiate a contract prior to the trade. That is the nature of baseball these days.

IndiansFan337
06-17-2008, 02:24 PM
You are entitled to an opinion on Sabathia but like I said, if you talk to people that actually know CC, you'd have a different opinion. I am not trying to argue and will not drop names but your angle is a tad off.

I also know people from NY that have run into RJ on occasion, when he lived there; the guy was not happy. Sure, his performance was not up to par but, no offense, you are making stuff up here. He flat out hated NY and wanted out and NY accomodated him. Period. Oh, and no kidding it will have no impact. lol It was an example for those NY fans that think everyone wants to be there. :P

Sabathia has no control over who we trade him to, yes. Two things: 1) This is a thread about if he doesn't resign, so we are talking about him walking and 2) (If you want to talk about trades then...) you are wrong to think that CC being involved in the trade will not happen. No team is going to agree to trade for a guy without having a shot to negotiate a contract prior to the trade. That is the nature of baseball these days.

I didn't make anything up. I didn't say Johnson enjoyed his time there or not. I said that his ERA was bad, although he did have one or two years of big W's. And that is true. It is a fact.

I am not saying CC wants to go to NY. I am saying if they offer him enough money(in terms of an extension), that he will certainly be open to the possibility, although I still feel that he will remain an Indian or bolt to California after this season. I don't think he will be traded.

Anyway, to get back on topic, if CC leaves as a F/A...............We will most likely end up rebuilding again next year & hoping to compete in 2010. I doubt we'd spend the money that we had allocated for Sabathia in '09 on another bigtime SP, such as Ben Sheets.

erich72
06-17-2008, 08:07 PM
This potential Sabathia trade stinks of a "Dark Horse" team stepping up. This is even if Sabathia is traded. If you trade a caliber player like Sabathia you had darn well better get studs in return. Pitching is THE most desired position in the game (unless you have 3 aces and some sucks on offnese...). My "Dark Horse"..... the St Louis Cardinals! Pull a coup and keep Sabathia out of a Cubs uniform. Sabathia for Colby Rasmus OF, Jamie Garcia LHP and Jess Todd RHP (potential closer).

Jpripper88
06-17-2008, 08:14 PM
This potential Sabathia trade stinks of a "Dark Horse" team stepping up. This is even if Sabathia is traded. If you trade a caliber player like Sabathia you had darn well better get studs in return. Pitching is THE most desired position in the game (unless you have 3 aces and some sucks on offnese...). My "Dark Horse"..... the St Louis Cardinals! Pull a coup and keep Sabathia out of a Cubs uniform. Sabathia for Colby Rasmus OF, Jamie Garcia LHP and Jess Todd RHP (potential closer).

Yeah, there was a mention of the Cards the other day with the trade being for Rasmus and their top catching prospect (can't think of his name right now). I love Rasmus and he would make our OF defense the best in the league right away.

IndiansFan337
06-17-2008, 10:02 PM
The thing is, I don't know if the Cards would go for it all now with Pujols, Isringhausen, Clement, Mulder AND Wainwright all on the DL. And Chris Carpenter is having problems in his return from TJ. So I'm not so sure they will want to part with Rasmus for Sabathia in a year which they probably won't make the playoffs even with Sabathia.

Jpripper88
06-17-2008, 10:52 PM
The thing is, I don't know if the Cards would go for it all now with Pujols, Isringhausen, Clement, Mulder AND Wainwright all on the DL. And Chris Carpenter is having problems in his return from TJ. So I'm not so sure they will want to part with Rasmus for Sabathia in a year which they probably won't make the playoffs even with Sabathia.

Yeah I don't think it would make sense for the Cards, but their name is being floated for some reason. They did get some good news today though, Carpenter was just having normal recovery pain.

IndiansFan337
06-18-2008, 07:14 AM
Yeah I don't think it would make sense for the Cards, but their name is being floated for some reason. They did get some good news today though, Carpenter was just having normal recovery pain.

Yeah, but until they get some of those big time players back, I don't think they will be serious about contending.

erich72
06-19-2008, 11:04 AM
St Louis is in the lead pack of the NL, 2nd best record in the NL. They already are in contention, 2 games out of 1st. Zambrano is hurt and "might" be out for a bit of time. If he is out, now is a perfect time to make a move and overstep the Cubbies, otherwise the Cubs will be making a move of thier own. I am not saying this will happen, I just think it makes sense for the Cards to make a play (Sabathia, Byrd or some other SP). What better way to tell your fans your not gonna lay back and let things play out than to go after Sabathia. I love Sabathia, I freakin kept tabs on him from his days as an 18 year old in the minors. I would hate to see him go, hate it. For the best interest of the Indians a trade for 2-3 major leage ready players might be the best thing. I am sure there will not be a repeat of the Colon trade, but getting a rock solid OF with ave and power, a SP that can fill in the 3-4 spot and a RP that has the "makings" of a closer. We may need to include a player with Sabathia but it can happen.

chicagofan71
06-19-2008, 12:01 PM
St Louis is in the lead pack of the NL, 2nd best record in the NL. They already are in contention, 2 games out of 1st. Zambrano is hurt and "might" be out for a bit of time. If he is out, now is a perfect time to make a move and overstep the Cubbies, otherwise the Cubs will be making a move of thier own. I am not saying this will happen, I just think it makes sense for the Cards to make a play (Sabathia, Byrd or some other SP). What better way to tell your fans your not gonna lay back and let things play out than to go after Sabathia. I love Sabathia, I freakin kept tabs on him from his days as an 18 year old in the minors. I would hate to see him go, hate it. For the best interest of the Indians a trade for 2-3 major leage ready players might be the best thing. I am sure there will not be a repeat of the Colon trade, but getting a rock solid OF with ave and power, a SP that can fill in the 3-4 spot and a RP that has the "makings" of a closer. We may need to include a player with Sabathia but it can happen.

STL out 2 games? Try 3.5 bud

Where did you hear he "might be out for a while"? No info on that has been released other than he had discomfort.

Anyway, you are right. The Cubs might now be willing to pull the trigger soon. If what you said is what the Tribe need, here's what the offer from the Cubs would be:

Hill
Pie
Ceda
Vitters

erich72
06-19-2008, 12:25 PM
The "might be out" was because he was going in to have it looked at, you never know. All fingers are cossed in Cub nation. I think we have all seen these "discomforts" turn out to stints to the DL on many cases. For his and your sake I hope it's nothing or the most 15 day DL.
I was wrong on the 2 game, must have overlooked it and mistaken the NL East standing.
I could go with that, not crazy about Pie however, Vitters is talented even though he is off to a horrid 2008. I would prefer Gallagher or Veal over Pie, but I'm not the GM.

EdTheRevelator
06-19-2008, 07:22 PM
Looks like the Indians WOULDN'T offer a "signing window" to any team acquiring Sabathia:


Lock those windows: You can probably forget that widespread assumption that any team willing to trade three high-ceiling young players for C.C. Sabathia would first ask for a 72-hour window to try to sign him. The Indians have been telling teams they're not interested in complicating their lives by opening any negotiating windows. And if Sabathia attracts the number of bidders they expect him to attract, they can afford to take that hard line.

-ESPN.com (Jayson Stark, Rumblings and Grumblings)

So we aren't going to get jack **** for C.C.

Jpripper88
06-19-2008, 07:50 PM
Looks like the Indians WOULDN'T offer a "signing window" to any team acquiring Sabathia:



-ESPN.com (Jayson Stark, Rumblings and Grumblings)

So we aren't going to get jack **** for C.C.

We will still get plenty. Really with CC all of these teams are going to know what he wants anyway, so they will know if they have a good chance of signing him long term anyway. CC will let his agent know what teams he would consider for an extension and then the teams will know that and what he wants. At that point it is just up to them to do the deal. I think the 72 hour window is overblown in CC's case because it is common knowledge what his contract needs to be, all that is left is whether he would sign with that team and I am sure he has already let his agent know whether there are teams he would not resign with.

IndiansFan337
06-19-2008, 07:51 PM
Looks like the Indians WOULDN'T offer a "signing window" to any team acquiring Sabathia:



-ESPN.com (Jayson Stark, Rumblings and Grumblings)

So we aren't going to get jack **** for C.C.

That's not going to hold up, when they realize that no one wants to acquire him as a rental.

Jpripper88
06-19-2008, 07:58 PM
STL out 2 games? Try 3.5 bud

Where did you hear he "might be out for a while"? No info on that has been released other than he had discomfort.

Anyway, you are right. The Cubs might now be willing to pull the trigger soon. If what you said is what the Tribe need, here's what the offer from the Cubs would be:

Hill
Pie
Ceda
Vitters

Again, Pie has no value to the Indians. He will not be a CF for us, has no power, doesn't have good pitch recognition, and despite his speed is a bad baserunner. I don't think he makes sense at all for the Indians. With that being said I would still take that deal because of the three other players. Also, Pie could be swapped for something else.

With the Zambrano injury the other night I was actually wondering if it would make the Cubs more or less likely to trade for CC if Zambrano was lost for any significant amount of time. If he is fine then maybe they think they don't really need him and are strong enough as is or they think by adding CC to a healthy CZ they are almost assured of at least a WS appearance. On the other hand, if CZ is hurt, then maybe they think it doesn't make sense to add CC because they lost Zambrano and adding CC, while losing Zambrano, wouldn't put them enough ahead to make them trade a good portion of their real prospects or they think they need CC more than ever. Interesting thing to ponder.

EdTheRevelator
06-19-2008, 08:33 PM
That's not going to hold up, when they realize that no one wants to acquire him as a rental.

I really think we're dreaming pipe dreams if we think we're going to get some huge haul for Sabathia. Yes, there might be a desperate team out there, but we'll be lucky if we get back more than one impact player.

erich72
06-19-2008, 09:28 PM
I think that a mid-season trade can get a better return than a pre-season trade. In the pre-season most teams think they have a shot at a post season. Mid-season sifts out the have and have not. Ergo, I like to think that we can still get a nice return on Sabathia, at least as good as the Yankee type offer rumored for Santana.

IndiansFan337
06-20-2008, 09:22 AM
I think that a mid-season trade can get a better return than a pre-season trade. In the pre-season most teams think they have a shot at a post season. Mid-season sifts out the have and have not. Ergo, I like to think that we can still get a nice return on Sabathia, at least as good as the Yankee type offer rumored for Santana.

I agree, if we decide to trade CC.

Personally, I still think we'll hold onto him.

bigalow80
06-21-2008, 07:03 PM
an interesting thought...what if the tribe does trade c.c and they get what they want from the trade, do they then go after him in the off-season? i mean, they could easily present the scenario, hey, we want to get better and we knew if we traded you we could do that and add very good players. if they give him this understanding when he leaves potentially he keeps the indians in mind when he starts negotiating a new deal and he has played for someone else, maybe he will realize cleveland is home to him. this is all probably a pipe dream, but hey its worth a shot. also, the indians aren't exactly out of the race just yet. anything is possible with only half the season done and half their team on the dl. if they go on a big run 12 out 14 or something crazy they are right back in the hunt.

Jpripper88
06-21-2008, 08:22 PM
an interesting thought...what if the tribe does trade c.c and they get what they want from the trade, do they then go after him in the off-season? i mean, they could easily present the scenario, hey, we want to get better and we knew if we traded you we could do that and add very good players. if they give him this understanding when he leaves potentially he keeps the indians in mind when he starts negotiating a new deal and he has played for someone else, maybe he will realize cleveland is home to him. this is all probably a pipe dream, but hey its worth a shot. also, the indians aren't exactly out of the race just yet. anything is possible with only half the season done and half their team on the dl. if they go on a big run 12 out 14 or something crazy they are right back in the hunt.

I guess it is possible, but it would all be up to CC and his willingness to take a big discount even after we traded him. I wouldn't count it. Of course it would be great for the Indians if that did happen. Get 3 or 4 real good prospects for him and Byrd and then bring CC back.

IndiansFan337
06-22-2008, 12:32 PM
I guess it is possible, but it would all be up to CC and his willingness to take a big discount even after we traded him. I wouldn't count it. Of course it would be great for the Indians if that did happen. Get 3 or 4 real good prospects for him and Byrd and then bring CC back.

Yeah, but I'm not counting on that happening. :D

There's probably a better chance if you buy a lottery ticket everyday between now & the World Series that you'll win it.

Jpripper88
06-22-2008, 01:09 PM
Yeah, but I'm not counting on that happening. :D

There's probably a better chance if you buy a lottery ticket everyday between now & the World Series that you'll win it.

Nah, even odds on those two things.:p

IndiansFan337
06-27-2008, 12:47 AM
They just said on ESPN that the Indians will call up teams & ask if you want the 2007 Cy Young winner. we want player A, B, C & D. If no team says yes....We will just keep him.

Thank God....We need to re sign this guy...

Jpripper88
06-27-2008, 08:28 AM
They just said on ESPN that the Indians will call up teams & ask if you want the 2007 Cy Young winner. we want player A, B, C & D. If no team says yes....We will just keep him.

Thank God....We need to re sign this guy...

CC ain't resigning with the Indians man. If he hits free agency, he is gone.

Injins2310
06-27-2008, 10:38 AM
LF= Shin Soo Choo- He is a great #2 spot hitter and needs to start.
CF= Grady Sizemore- Duh
RF= Ben Franisco/ Frankin= A nice platoon in RF

1B= Ryan Garko= Everyday first baseman
2B= Jamey Carrol/Asdubal Cabera= Everday second baseman, shouldn't of started the year in the majors
SS= Jhonny Pelarta= Is hitting now but needs to be traded for a better defensive SS.
3B= Casey Blake/Andy Marte= Biggest need. Casey is about done and Marte is garbage.

We need a SS and 3B, maybe a power hitting corner outfielder but I like our outfield. Potential and young.

RP= Jensen Lewis, Rapheal Perez, Bentancourt, Masa, and Joe Blow.

Sowers needs to be in here or Triple A. Prefer we trade him and Bryd.

SP= CC, Lee, Fausto, Laffery, Byrd, Sowers

Needs to be after we trade CC- Lee, Fausto, Laffery, Rafael Perez, Sowers/Byrd

So the ideal situation is we trade Bryd or Sowers for prospects such as an outfielder or pitchers in the pen.

Trade CC for a Closer, SS, and 3rd baseman.

Any team in the NL that gives us three starters/ potential starters next year.

IndiansFan337
06-27-2008, 01:52 PM
LF= Shin Soo Choo- He is a great #2 spot hitter and needs to start.
CF= Grady Sizemore- Duh
RF= Ben Franisco/ Frankin= A nice platoon in RF

1B= Ryan Garko= Everyday first baseman
2B= Jamey Carrol/Asdubal Cabera= Everday second baseman, shouldn't of started the year in the majors
SS= Jhonny Pelarta= Is hitting now but needs to be traded for a better defensive SS.
3B= Casey Blake/Andy Marte= Biggest need. Casey is about done and Marte is garbage.

We need a SS and 3B, maybe a power hitting corner outfielder but I like our outfield. Potential and young.

RP= Jensen Lewis, Rapheal Perez, Bentancourt, Masa, and Joe Blow.

Sowers needs to be in here or Triple A. Prefer we trade him and Bryd.

SP= CC, Lee, Fausto, Laffery, Byrd, Sowers

Needs to be after we trade CC- Lee, Fausto, Laffery, Rafael Perez, Sowers/Byrd

So the ideal situation is we trade Bryd or Sowers for prospects such as an outfielder or pitchers in the pen.

Trade CC for a Closer, SS, and 3rd baseman.

Any team in the NL that gives us three starters/ potential starters next year.

You're really kidding yourself if you think the Indians only problem is at SS/3B.

Especially considering that Blake has been darn near our best hitter all year long.

Injins2310
06-27-2008, 02:22 PM
You're really kidding yourself if you think the Indians only problem is at SS/3B.

Especially considering that Blake has been darn near our best hitter all year long.

You didn't read the entire thing. Our biggest need is a future 3rd baseman, how long do you think Blake will be able to do this for? Wouldn't it be nice to have him play off the bench since he plays 3 different positions. Also Jhonny Pelarta is starting to hit and could be good trade bait. We need a SS and I believe Cabera is going to stay at second base. If not, then we need a 2nd baseman. I also added that closer is a major need. Probably the most important is actually a closer. We don't need SP even if we trade CC. They Indians are 7.5 games back but I don't see things changing and a playoff run. We are working for next year almost. Next years lineup needs to change too...

LF- Choo
CF- Grady
RF- Ben Franisco

1B-Garko
2B-Cabera
SS- New Guy -Better defensively
3B- New Guy- Power Hitting

DH-Hafner/Blake or New Guy

RP-New Closer, Masa, Perez, Jensen Lewis, Bentancourt, and Sowers

SP- Lee, Fausto, Westbrook, Laffey, Adam Miller

We need four spots filled.

Jpripper88
06-27-2008, 09:15 PM
You're really kidding yourself if you think the Indians only problem is at SS/3B.

Especially considering that Blake has been darn near our best hitter all year long.

Blake was terrible the first two months of the year (.225), he has gotten hot in June.

IndiansFan337
06-27-2008, 10:23 PM
Blake was terrible the first two months of the year (.225), he has gotten hot in June.

He's been leading our team in RBI & hitting great with RISP all year long....So that counts for quite a bit in my book.

EdTheRevelator
06-30-2008, 01:39 PM
He's been leading our team in RBI & hitting great with RISP all year long....So that counts for quite a bit in my book.

Funny you mention RBIs as being important, there was an argument going on recently on whether or not they do mean anything in the main forum.

Blake is what he is - a utility player who starts. People who have been posting here since the start of the season should know my stance on him, so I won't waste your time on that. But we do need to find a long term solution at 3B. Blake is a FA, will want a big raise, and he's like 34 or 35. Not the kind of guy we should be signing to a pricey long-term deal. Since Marte is apparently not an option, we should find one.

God that Barfield trade looks worse with each passing day.

IndiansFan337
06-30-2008, 03:21 PM
Funny you mention RBIs as being important, there was an argument going on recently on whether or not they do mean anything in the main forum.

Blake is what he is - a utility player who starts. People who have been posting here since the start of the season should know my stance on him, so I won't waste your time on that. But we do need to find a long term solution at 3B. Blake is a FA, will want a big raise, and he's like 34 or 35. Not the kind of guy we should be signing to a pricey long-term deal. Since Marte is apparently not an option, we should find one.

God that Barfield trade looks worse with each passing day.

I'm not lobbying for us to re sign Blake if there is a better option. And I'm surely not saying he deserves a raise.

But I do feel like some of you are overvaluing our current team. We are a bad team. We have a lot of holes. We need to make a lot of changes. Just upgrading for Blake at 3B isn't going to fix our team. I'm saying we need to look deeper. Gutierrez, Francisco, Blake, Garko, Peralta, Cabrera all may not be long term answers for us....

EdTheRevelator
06-30-2008, 04:01 PM
From ESPN.com's Rumor Central:


A Major League executive, who asked to remain anonymous because he was discussing a player not on his team, told the Newark Star-Ledger's Ed Price that the Indians will make a last ditch effort to sign C.C. Sabathia to a long-term contract before trading him.

The one major problem is that Cleveland, a smaller-market team, will have trouble finding the cash to satisfy Sabathia, who is reportedly looking for a Johan Santana-sized (Six-year, $137.5 million) deal.

Price also reports that the Indians were "dead-set" on trading Sabathia until the recent string of injuries hit the ball club.

Take it with a grain of salt though; I don't think our offer will be seriously considered. It probably will be just that: a last-ditch effort. I doubt it will get done.

duncky1188
06-30-2008, 05:31 PM
I heard from Jayson Stark on All Bets Are Off today that BEtancourt, Perez and Guitierez could also be on the trading block.

erich72
06-30-2008, 08:59 PM
Of those 3, I would like to keep Perez

Jpripper88
06-30-2008, 09:07 PM
Of those 3, I would like to keep Perez

I agree. He has the most talent, is under control for a few more years, and is hardest to replace. However, I think this would be an easy answer for every Indians fans, which means he is easily the most valuable to other teams.

erich72
06-30-2008, 09:22 PM
Does Shapiro, or anyone else still have false hope in this year? Wow, feels like the 1980's all over again..... well at least early 2002/2003

Jpripper88
06-30-2008, 09:48 PM
Does Shapiro, or anyone else still have false hope in this year? Wow, feels like the 1980's all over again..... well at least early 2002/2003

Some on here do. I don't know how (I think we are the worst in the AL right now), but some really think we have a good shot at the playoffs.

IndiansFan337
07-01-2008, 12:23 PM
I heard from Jayson Stark on All Bets Are Off today that BEtancourt, Perez and Guitierez could also be on the trading block.

Perez shouldn't be, but the other 2 surely should. We have no use for them right now.

Let's take what we can get...

IndiansFan337
07-01-2008, 12:24 PM
Some on here do. I don't know how (I think we are the worst in the AL right now), but some really think we have a good shot at the playoffs.

We definitely don't have a "good shot" at the playoffs.

And losing games to the division leading ChiSox sure doesn't make it any better.

EdTheRevelator
07-01-2008, 02:50 PM
We definitely don't have a "good shot" at the playoffs.

And losing games to the division leading ChiSox sure doesn't make it any better.

Unless we win the series with the Sox, and then sweep the next two series, we don't have a shot at the playoffs.

So in other words, we have no shot whatsoever this season. It's time to move on to next year.

I say trade next to everybody and try to reload.

IndiansFan337
07-01-2008, 03:05 PM
Unless we win the series with the Sox, and then sweep the next two series, we don't have a shot at the playoffs.

So in other words, we have no shot whatsoever this season. It's time to move on to next year.

I say trade next to everybody and try to reload.

There's no difference between a sweep in the next series or a sweep two weeks down the line. It would count the same.

But we most likely are bound for the last part of your post -- sadly. :(

erich72
07-01-2008, 07:13 PM
Hear that?! I think it's Pronk comming out to sing.

IndiansFan337
07-01-2008, 11:20 PM
I hope we do make CC a sincere offer before conceding to deal him away this summer. Give him one last chance to remain an Indian long term & lead our march back to the playoffs.