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TMAC94
05-26-2008, 02:33 AM
is he gonna be injuried alot or can he play 70+ games?
i hope he can flat out shoot and avarge between 30-25 PPG.
but what can we execpt from him?

Chronz
05-26-2008, 03:49 AM
His per game averages depend on his minutes but in terms of his production Im hoping he recovers, if hes relatively healthy, I expect a bounce back season from him. He had the worst season of his career and typically players who experience such significant dropoffs at such a young age come back strong the following year.

If he can just get his Offensive Rating up to the 106-108 range and his PER back up to the low 20's the Rockets will be ELITE.

The great thing is that he had the worst season of his career and the Rockets were still an elite team (With Yao), so any sort of recovery from him will only benefit the team.

Renovator
05-26-2008, 08:03 AM
First of alll Aldeman has to keep TMAC fresh all season by limiting his minutes a tiny bit, maybe 30-35 PMG max during normal season. Then its up to the basketball gods to keep him healthy. If TMAC can stay healthy then players and fans are to have cerations expectations from him.

He has to have a healthy FG %. He has to take it to the rim more often. If he can manage these then Im sure he will average 25 PPG.

He has to stop slowing down our ball and player movement. If he can achieve this and manage to keep a good flow/tempo then players around him will be able to find better scoring opportunites as well.

I also expect him to impose himself a bit more on games. Be Nasty.

Ballah0liC1
05-26-2008, 01:22 PM
i think he'll play 75+ gms but depending on if we get a third scorer, if we do about 23 to 24 pts with 6 to 7 ast, if not about 24 to 26 pts and 5 to 6 ast

mightybosstone
05-26-2008, 05:47 PM
Forget stats. I'm sick of looking at T-Mac in terms of statistics, because they mean about jack **** when you look at his career here. I want him to take his game to the full four quarters of a playoff matchup. He absolutely disappeared when the Rockets needed him the most against the Jazz and that's what really worries me. If you care about stats, the stats you should look at are field goal % and his three point attempts. I want to see his three point attempts go significantly down (he shot .292 this year) and his field goal percentage go up (shot .419). He's not nearly aggressive enough to the basket and he settles for far too many jump shots. He's playing his best when he's penetrating to the basket. If he does this more, than his field goal percentage will improve, he'll miss fewer contested jump shots, his assists will go up, and the Rockets will win more (especially in the playoffs).

T-mac(#1)
05-26-2008, 10:07 PM
Next Year:
-75+ Games
-23/24 ppg
-7/8 apg
-6 rpg
-38 mpg
***WCF+ ***

jdillion
05-26-2008, 10:30 PM
24 pts
7 to 8 assists
5 rebs
hell play around 65 games

mightybosstone
05-27-2008, 01:30 AM
Predicting T-Mac's stats when the NBA season isn't even over yet is pretty pointless. Why not just go ahead and predict who wins the championship next year, who wins MVP, and which big name players get injured halfway through the season?

Chronz
05-27-2008, 03:50 AM
Predicting T-Mac's stats when the NBA season isn't even over yet is pretty pointless. Why not just go ahead and predict who wins the championship next year, who wins MVP, and which big name players get injured halfway through the season?
Because those arent as accurate, a players level of production can be projected with objective research. They arent 100% accurate but predicting the future never is.

I dont know how the others are predicting his numbers but Im looking at his usage% and the projected improvement of the players around him to get an idea, and awhole lot of hoping that his 2nd half performance was more indicative of his injuries than his actual value. Players who drop this drastically at an early age will either bounce back strong or it will be a sign of his natural decline.

For the Rockets sake you better hope its not the latter.

Tmac,lt,berkman
05-27-2008, 10:10 AM
T-mac with third scorer
20ppg
10apg
9rpg
1steal
T-mac without third scorer
24ppg
7rpg
6apg
1steal

mightybosstone
05-27-2008, 11:42 AM
Because those arent as accurate, a players level of production can be projected with objective research. They arent 100% accurate but predicting the future never is.

I dont know how the others are predicting his numbers but Im looking at his usage% and the projected improvement of the players around him to get an idea, and awhole lot of hoping that his 2nd half performance was more indicative of his injuries than his actual value. Players who drop this drastically at an early age will either bounce back strong or it will be a sign of his natural decline.

For the Rockets sake you better hope its not the latter.

Yeah, but it's still completely pointless. Would you rather T-Mac average 30-10-10 or would you rather win a championship? My point is that stats are overrated and I could give a damn about whether or not he wins the friggin' MVP, but if we can't get past the first round of the playoffs then it's all for nothing.

I've seen a lot of T-Mac love in these forums and while I'll be the first to admit that he's an incredible player, he's also easily one of the most lethargic, underachieving players I've ever seen in any sport. If he stopped taking twenty footers, quit *****ing about his injuries (real superstars play hurt), and took the ball to the hole every now and then, then his stats would be off the charts.

For the record, though, I do think he's on the natural decline. I think he might see a slight rebound this season, but I don't think he'll ever average 24-25 points again. I think it's very possible that in 3-4 seasons, we'll be looking at a T-Mac averaging 15-16 points a game and being the second or third option on any given team. If he can't drive to the basket now, than he's definitely not doing it five years from now and his jump shot just isn't that good...

Ballah0liC1
05-27-2008, 12:24 PM
mightybosstone if u dont like the thread dont comment in it as i was told by the almighty tmac 2 da rack

mightybosstone
05-27-2008, 12:32 PM
mightybosstone if u dont like the thread dont comment in it as i was told by the almighty tmac 2 da rack

I'm a TM and well aware of the rules of PSD. I'm not baiting or trolling, I'm just stating my opinion and my observations of the overall opinion of the Rockets' forums.

Ballah0liC1
05-27-2008, 01:01 PM
I'm a TM and well aware of the rules of PSD. I'm not baiting or trolling, I'm just stating my opinion and my observations of the overall opinion of the Rockets' forums.

i was just joking im just sayin that because i was bahed for bashing back and i got a warning

TMAC111
05-28-2008, 01:26 AM
T MAC with another scorer will be healther and rested and trust me when the rockets get that 3rd scorer trust its going to make it easier on him and then the hoop just looks bigger when ur relaxed.

25-30pts
6-8ast
6-8reb

BallerzDream
05-28-2008, 07:14 AM
Are we talking about a bounce back? IS that even possible from SUCH a bad statistical season?

Chronz
05-28-2008, 09:13 AM
Yeah, but it's still completely pointless. Would you rather T-Mac average 30-10-10 or would you rather win a championship? My point is that stats are overrated and I could give a damn about whether or not he wins the friggin' MVP, but if we can't get past the first round of the playoffs then it's all for nothing.
Id rather him win a title posting 30-10-10, stats arent overrated or underrated, they are what they are. The chances of winning a title go up if Tmac performs at a higher level.


I've seen a lot of T-Mac love in these forums and while I'll be the first to admit that he's an incredible player, he's also easily one of the most lethargic, underachieving players I've ever seen in any sport. If he stopped taking twenty footers, quit *****ing about his injuries (real superstars play hurt), and took the ball to the hole every now and then, then his stats would be off the charts.

Thats your opinion, I disagree. The man plays hurt, but you CANT play injured. Its not as simple as just taking it to the hole, Tmac took it to the hole more in the playoffs than he did in the regular season and his scoring efficiency wasnt any better, in fact it was slightly worse, but his overall impact was greater so you do have a point. But hes just not that good at getting to the line.


For the record, though, I do think he's on the natural decline. I think he might see a slight rebound this season, but I don't think he'll ever average 24-25 points again. I think it's very possible that in 3-4 seasons, we'll be looking at a T-Mac averaging 15-16 points a game and being the second or third option on any given team. If he can't drive to the basket now, than he's definitely not doing it five years from now and his jump shot just isn't that good...

Then dont expect him to be someone he's not, I dont consider Tmac elite (not after this season) but if he can bounce back then the Rockets are better off for it. And his jumper is money, he just needs to stop shooting off the dribble 3's. Im fine with him settling for the jumper so long as its a quality look, then it can set up his whole slashing game. But he needs to work on his FT's.

Chronz
05-28-2008, 09:16 AM
Are we talking about a bounce back? IS that even possible from SUCH a bad statistical season?
Stranger things have happened, but he did drop substantially so maybe the bounce back wont be so dramatic, but at this point Ill take it.

BallerzDream
05-28-2008, 09:35 AM
Then dont expect him to be someone he's not, I dont consider Tmac elite (not after this season) but if he can bounce back then the Rockets are better off for it. And his jumper is money, he just needs to stop shooting off the dribble 3's. Im fine with him settling for the jumper so long as its a quality look, then it can set up his whole slashing game. But he needs to work on his FT's.

Tracy's motivation thrives on a negative aspect of his game. His intensity is not there, not there for a long time. Tracy is not elite. However, we all know that he has that "gear". Unless the oil is changed, it wont turn. A good example is the playoffs. Like Cronz said, his game multiplies to a certain extent. I completely agree.

Tmac,lt,berkman
05-28-2008, 10:42 AM
i think they can win a title with him if him and yao are both healthy if they get a third scorer or if someone else steps up and if t-mac can score in the fourth quarter of the playoffs

mightybosstone
05-28-2008, 11:54 AM
Id rather him win a title posting 30-10-10, stats arent overrated or underrated, they are what they are. The chances of winning a title go up if Tmac performs at a higher level.
I think you're missing the point on this one. I'm saying stats are overrated, because I'd rather have a winning franchise with a few really good players that are only above average statistically (a team like the Pistons) than a team with one or two superstars that are off the charts, but never do well in the playoffs. And, you know what? I think this team would do horribly if he's averaging 30-10-10. If he has 10 rebounds, then why aren't the big men stepping it up more? If he has 10 assists, are our point guards completely inept? If he averages 30 points, either his field goal percentage has gone way up (highly unlikely), or he's taking far too many shots and is playing selfishly.


Thats your opinion, I disagree. The man plays hurt, but you CANT play injured. Its not as simple as just taking it to the hole, Tmac took it to the hole more in the playoffs than he did in the regular season and his scoring efficiency wasnt any better, in fact it was slightly worse, but his overall impact was greater so you do have a point. But hes just not that good at getting to the line.
He CAN be good at getting to the line, but he choses not to, because he's worried about getting hurt. He only had 5.4 free throw attempts per game and that's his lowest total since his last season in Toronto. It's like when he choses to play defense. Watching him play basketball is so frustrating for me. Sometimes in the Jazz series, I'd see him block shots and get in guys faces defensively, but the other 80% of the time he just stood around, walking back and forth between defenders. You know he's in that rhythm on both sides of the court when he gets that sneer... but why doesn't he have that same intensity the whole game? And why can't he turn that on in the 4th quarter?


Then dont expect him to be someone he's not, I dont consider Tmac elite (not after this season) but if he can bounce back then the Rockets are better off for it. And his jumper is money, he just needs to stop shooting off the dribble 3's. Im fine with him settling for the jumper so long as its a quality look, then it can set up his whole slashing game. But he needs to work on his FT's.
I'm not saying he can't bounce back or won't and why would I not want him to? After this last season, I think the only way he can go is up. And I think his jump shot's fine, but I'm sick of watching him take 3's in transition with 20 seconds left on the shot clock and a hand in his face or heaving a 20 footer when he has a perfectly fine lane he could dribble in. If it's a good look, I'm fine with it, but I personally would look to see more ball movement before he decides to take a shot that far away. You're right about his free throw shooting too... its horrendous. He shot .684 from the free throw line (a career low) and he took only 5 a game (which shows how often he's not driving to the basket).

I don't expect him to be someone he's not, I expect him to be what we see out him about 50% of the time. He CAN be an elite player, but he slacks off on defense, settles for too many jump shots, misses his free throws, and falls apart in the forth quarter of playoff games. I was listening to ESPN Radio the other night driving home from work and they had a discussion of a couple of NBA analysts who were saying that T-Mac could have been one of the greatest players in the history of the NBA, if he wasn't so lethargic. I couldn't agree more... His length and his court vision make him an ideal superstar, but he doesn't use it to his advantage enough.

Chronz
05-28-2008, 06:21 PM
I think you're missing the point on this one. I'm saying stats are overrated, because I'd rather have a winning franchise with a few really good players that are only above average statistically (a team like the Pistons) than a team with one or two superstars that are off the charts, but never do well in the playoffs. And, you know what? I think this team would do horribly if he's averaging 30-10-10. If he has 10 rebounds, then why aren't the big men stepping it up more? If he has 10 assists, are our point guards completely inept? If he averages 30 points, either his field goal percentage has gone way up (highly unlikely), or he's taking far too many shots and is playing selfishly.
No Im just reiterating mine, stats cant be overrated or underrated, they are what they are, and because the teams chances of winning gos up with more productive play, Im hoping Tmac raises his game. And no if Tmac is averaging 30-10-10 its because hes elevated his play, you cant assume anything unless your adding it into the equation if you had said the team sucks with Tmac dominating then obviously you go against that route, but in my point of view if Tmac is dominating then so is our team because we BOTH want the Rockets to win. The PG's arent inept they are just hitting their open shots and it doesnt mean they arent performing either, Tmac is averaging 10 boards because hes helping out on the boards. You dont just assume our team gets worse if Tmac is getting better, unless your stating that in the first place.

Put it this way, would you rather Tmac average 10, 2, 2 or 30-8-8? Which do you think gives the Rockets the best chance of winning?

As for your Pistons comment, the Pistons had 2 players who rated better than Tmac statistically (Chauncey actually rated higher than Tmac in a few of his other Rocket seasons) and the other one who didnt (Sheed) was an elite defender, but his defensive metrics were off the charts so I would even include him as the higher rated player statistically, it really does depend on what you mean by stats. What stats are you looking at exactly? I look at efficiency/usage and how they correlate to team success. It is in these regards that stats arent overrated, the higher Tmac rates in them the better it is for the Rockets. And honestly these are the only stats that matter.



He CAN be good at getting to the line, but he choses not to, because he's worried about getting hurt. He only had 5.4 free throw attempts per game and that's his lowest total since his last season in Toronto. It's like when he choses to play defense. Watching him play basketball is so frustrating for me. Sometimes in the Jazz series, I'd see him block shots and get in guys faces defensively, but the other 80% of the time he just stood around, walking back and forth between defenders. You know he's in that rhythm on both sides of the court when he gets that sneer... but why doesn't he have that same intensity the whole game? And why can't he turn that on in the 4th quarter?

Yea I feel you on the defensive side, he cant go all out for an entire game. As for his slashing and getting to the line, hes not great at it because of how he plays, in the past Tmac used to dribble low, because hes so lanky and great ballhandler for someone his size his change of pace drives would net him tons of free throws, now with him limiting his back he cant play like that an entire game. Thats why I said hes not a superstar anymore, he can play like one for stretches but even when he does its because his jumper is on. His jumper is so important to his game now, so much so that he should work on it extensively. And learn to operate solely in the high post area.



I'm not saying he can't bounce back or won't and why would I not want him to? After this last season, I think the only way he can go is up. And I think his jump shot's fine, but I'm sick of watching him take 3's in transition with 20 seconds left on the shot clock and a hand in his face or heaving a 20 footer when he has a perfectly fine lane he could dribble in. If it's a good look, I'm fine with it, but I personally would look to see more ball movement before he decides to take a shot that far away. You're right about his free throw shooting too... its horrendous. He shot .684 from the free throw line (a career low) and he took only 5 a game (which shows how often he's not driving to the basket).

I never said you thought that, he can drive to the basket, he just doesnt get to the line because hes not good at creating contact or going up strong. And that post was in regards to you expecting something from Tmac that he is simply incapable of providing. Trust me we would both like to see Tmac stop chucking up momentum killing shots (unless hes on fire), but give him credit, hes lowered those attempts significantly this season and in the playoffs.


I don't expect him to be someone he's not, I expect him to be what we see out him about 50% of the time. He CAN be an elite player, but he slacks off on defense, settles for too many jump shots, misses his free throws, and falls apart in the forth quarter of playoff games. I was listening to ESPN Radio the other night driving home from work and they had a discussion of a couple of NBA analysts who were saying that T-Mac could have been one of the greatest players in the history of the NBA, if he wasn't so lethargic. I couldn't agree more... His length and his court vision make him an ideal superstar, but he doesn't use it to his advantage enough.
Thats the thing he plays like that in stretches because thats exactly the player he is, he is incapable of playing like that for entire games. His free throw shooting is definitely a major problem, no excuses for that.

But those analyst are retards, Tmac was well on his way to superstardom, it has nothing to do with his style of play, or his work ethic, he was extremely efficient/active at both, its just his back and decline. Theyre right about his D, his 4th quarter play in the postseason was simply a sign of teams overplaying him and fatigue from carrying the team for an entire game.

t-mac1nukka
05-28-2008, 06:36 PM
chronz you always find someone to get in these huge post debates dont you? lol ;)

Chronz
05-28-2008, 09:30 PM
That should be the point of a discussion forum no, Im just trying to understand where hes coming from and to get there you gotta ask alot of questions and make alot of statements.

I guess it all depends on whether you think Tmac is good enough or simply what he is. I know my opinion wont be popular on the subject but Tmac declined dramatically last year, his playoff were great but he is simply incapable of playing that way an entire season, WHY? Because he saves his body, if it were up to him he wouldnt have a balky back, and you wouldnt notice such a dramatic difference in his level of play. But he also needs to man up and refine his game, as he enters the 2nd stage of his career, to do that the Rockets neeed to stay healthy.

t-mac1nukka
05-28-2008, 09:42 PM
hey im not bashing you for doing it...though i havent read through all of this one, i did the other one with face. i actually enjoyed it.

nyyfan4life
05-29-2008, 12:48 AM
If he plays in atleast 70 games and is relatively healthy throughout I dont see him doing bad.

My projections:
22-23 ppg
5-6 rpg
6-7 apg
45 fg%
38 3pt%

TMAC94
05-29-2008, 08:33 AM
i reckon with a 3rd option he'll avarge more. maybe 6 or 7 6 rebounds. 22-27 points. i wanna see the old tmac. the one who could just get too rim so easy. i dont want the tmac from orlando hogging it. i want a tmac who doesnt just shoot contestent jumpers. if his open on if he can hit but not every single shot.

t-mac1nukka
05-29-2008, 12:12 PM
i reckon with a 3rd option he'll avarge more. maybe 6 or 7 6 rebounds. 22-27 points. i wanna see the old tmac. the one who could just get too rim so easy. i dont want the tmac from orlando hogging it. i want a tmac who doesnt just shoot contestent jumpers. if his open on if he can hit but not every single shot.

lol what???

TMAC94
06-01-2008, 08:35 AM
lol what???

LOL i ment too say i want him too shoot but no just sit there and catch and shoot. i want him too hit open jumpers. and i want him too attack the rim.:)

fredv
06-01-2008, 02:43 PM
We need to get him a young backup SG who can come off the bench and go to the rim. I would see in this backup a future replacement. And I wish that Tracy could teach him some important stuff. We already have to think of the post-tmac-yao era...

And guess who I see being that backup? Yeah you know who i'm talking about, he's from USC...

Tmac to da rack
06-01-2008, 09:07 PM
That should be the point of a discussion forum no, Im just trying to understand where hes coming from and to get there you gotta ask alot of questions and make alot of statements.

I guess it all depends on whether you think Tmac is good enough or simply what he is. I know my opinion wont be popular on the subject but Tmac declined dramatically last year, his playoff were great but he is simply incapable of playing that way an entire season, WHY? Because he saves his body, if it were up to him he wouldnt have a balky back, and you wouldnt notice such a dramatic difference in his level of play. But he also needs to man up and refine his game, as he enters the 2nd stage of his career, to do that the Rockets neeed to stay healthy.

I kinda agree a little more with the other dude your arguing with or debating with, both of you have good points but the fact is, Tmac isnt going to get any better, the only way his going to get better is if we get a 3rd star that can help Tmac isolate a bit more and let tmac do his thing, with a 3rd star tmac will have alot more room to work with and do alot more damage, same for Yao. Tmac has alot of skills and his back injury really slowed him down, Having back problems totally eliminates you from doing major damages in the court. I would love for Houston to get that 3rd star and help us win a championship ring because it took kg about 12 yrs to get to the finals? and 7 or 8 to get past the 1st round? Im not too sure if thats accurate or not but its around that, anyways, at the end of tmacs career I believe he will have at least 1 ring, only because I know we have a g.m (Morey) that wants to win now, and is been very agressive in making this team better.

goku
06-01-2008, 09:27 PM
t-mac just need to be able to keep his legs goin a full game cause his shot is basically on elevation

Chronz
06-02-2008, 06:27 AM
I kinda agree a little more with the other dude your arguing with or debating with, both of you have good points but the fact is, Tmac isnt going to get any better, the only way his going to get better is if we get a 3rd star that can help Tmac isolate a bit more and let tmac do his thing, with a 3rd star tmac will have alot more room to work with and do alot more damage, same for Yao. Tmac has alot of skills and his back injury really slowed him down, Having back problems totally eliminates you from doing major damages in the court. I would love for Houston to get that 3rd star and help us win a championship ring because it took kg about 12 yrs to get to the finals? and 7 or 8 to get past the 1st round? Im not too sure if thats accurate or not but its around that, anyways, at the end of tmacs career I believe he will have at least 1 ring, only because I know we have a g.m (Morey) that wants to win now, and is been very agressive in making this team better.

We both pretty much agreed that Tmac is on the downside of his career, the only disagreement comes from him thinking Tmac is playing half assed and not playing to his potential, while I truly believe this is the player he is and has become now. Its sad really, but either way I would love to be wrong, hell I kind of alluded to that when hoping Tmac has a bounce back year. If he continues to decline the Rockets championship hopes may go down with them.

jdillion
06-02-2008, 11:45 PM
tmac drives to the basket enough thats not the problem. tmac has heart when he plays so thas not the problem. the problem that tmac has is the same problem that kg had a few years ago an that is a lack of winners to want slap tmac in the back of his head an tell him to get going. Like theres no winner on this team other than bobby jackson(who we all kno as a dumb basketball playre) thus when tmac gets into his ***** mode theres no one to help n get goin(jus look at what derek fisher has done for the lakers givin kobe that confidence so he can be kobe). But yea what the rockets need is a player, a wing man or guard, who can take that clutch shot an jus help tmac get over that hump cuz then his confidence will be back an hell be fine

an tmac isnt on the down end of his career hes jus changed his game from orlando to a more pass first player if anything hes lost explosiveness cuz of his back

mightybosstone
06-03-2008, 01:02 AM
I'm sick of hearing "he needs more help". He had Yao Ming and a very capable coach in Van Gundy for a couple of solid seasons and did nothing. This is the best team he's had so far and if they add a couple of pieces, they'll be the best team the Rockets have had since the Hakeem era. If he can't win with this... then he can't win at all. This is the "**** or get off the pot" point in his career.

TMAC94
06-03-2008, 06:06 AM
yao ming was out for half a season 3 years in a row

Chronz
06-03-2008, 07:35 AM
I'm sick of hearing "he needs more help". He had Yao Ming and a very capable coach in Van Gundy for a couple of solid seasons and did nothing. This is the best team he's had so far and if they add a couple of pieces, they'll be the best team the Rockets have had since the Hakeem era. If he can't win with this... then he can't win at all. This is the "**** or get off the pot" point in his career.

Your being overdramatic, I wouldnt call the foundation him and Yao established together as doing nothing, theyve always overachieved every 50 win season, when you consider the talent level of the teams ahead of them. They are what they are, and for them to win they need more help. These arent Kobe and Shaq type players, they never will be but you cant blame them for losing to superior teams, they were always competitive, the reason they couldnt close the deal was due to the lack of support, outside of the duo. Now with Scolandry, they arent lacking the frontcourt depth, the just need a slight tweak and they will be ready for war next year.

Chronz
06-03-2008, 07:40 AM
tmac drives to the basket enough thats not the problem. tmac has heart when he plays so thas not the problem. the problem that tmac has is the same problem that kg had a few years ago an that is a lack of winners to want slap tmac in the back of his head an tell him to get going. Like theres no winner on this team other than bobby jackson(who we all kno as a dumb basketball playre) thus when tmac gets into his ***** mode theres no one to help n get goin(jus look at what derek fisher has done for the lakers givin kobe that confidence so he can be kobe). But yea what the rockets need is a player, a wing man or guard, who can take that clutch shot an jus help tmac get over that hump cuz then his confidence will be back an hell be fine

an tmac isnt on the down end of his career hes jus changed his game from orlando to a more pass first player if anything hes lost explosiveness cuz of his back
Thats kind of the point, hes lost most of his explosiveness due to his back and thats why hes on the downside of his career, hes improved as a passer as most great players do when their individual skills begin to diminish, but Tmac hasnt been able to replace quantity with quality, and he hasnt really played that differently over the years, the teams offense still required him to put up the bulk of the shots.

TMAC94
06-03-2008, 08:38 AM
Thats kind of the point, hes lost most of his explosiveness due to his back and thats why hes on the downside of his career, hes improved as a passer as most great players do when their individual skills begin to diminish, but Tmac hasnt been able to replace quantity with quality, and he hasnt really played that differently over the years, the teams offense still required him to put up the bulk of the shots.

True. But in orlando it was basically tmac. now its tmac and yao, and possibly another scorer?

Tmac to da rack
06-03-2008, 10:27 AM
Tmacs really never gotten any help ever sinse he joined with the Rockets and some of you Tmac haters need to stop hating and hopefully after this post I might change a few of you Tmac haters to Tmac Lovers, just check out the help that Tmacs had ever sinse he joined with the Rockets.

04-05
Tmac
Yao
Jim Jackson
David Wesley
Bobby Sura (injured)
Juwan Howard
Maurice Taylor
Jon Barry
TyronNE Lue
Charlie Ward
ScoTT Padgett
Dikembe Mutumbo
Vin Baker
Nachbar
51-31 Record that season

05-06
Tmac
Yao
Rafer
Juwan Howard
Derek Anderson
David Wesley
Stro Show
Head rookie
Keith Bogans
Jon Barry
Lonny Baxter
Dikembe
Chuck Wagon
Ryan Bowen
John Lucas
34-48

06-07
Tmac
Yao
Rafer
Battier
Juwan Howard
Bonzi
Chuck Hayes
Kirk Snyder
Dikembe
Vassilis Spanoulis
Steve Novak
John Lucas
JAKE TSAKALIDIS
52-30

07-08 Season
Tmac
Yao
Battier
Rafer
Scola
Landry
Bobby Jackson/Bonzi Wells
Mike James/Aaron Brooks
Luther Head
Steve Novak
Steve Francis
Loren Woods
Dikembe Mutumbo
Chuck Hayes
Mike Harris
55-27

Now you tell me, when the hell has he had help? If Yao wasnt injured last year, just imagine how far we would have gone, and this offseason I expect for Morey to improve this roster and get more help for Tmac. So pretty much all im saying is stop hating on tmac because IT'S NOT HIS FAULT! It's the Rockets organizations fault that never gave tmac that help his always needed.

mightybosstone
06-03-2008, 10:47 AM
Tmacs really never gotten any help ever sinse he joined with the Rockets and some of you Tmac haters need to stop hating and hopefully after this post I might change a few of you Tmac haters to Tmac Lovers, just check out the help that Tmacs had ever sinse he joined with the Rockets.

Now you tell me, when the hell has he had help? If Yao wasnt injured last year, just imagine how far we would have gone, and this offseason I expect for Morey to improve this roster and get more help for Tmac. So pretty much all im saying is stop hating on tmac because IT'S NOT HIS FAULT! It's the Rockets organizations fault that never gave tmac that help his always needed.

I'm not a T-Mac "hater".... the dude's my favorite player! However, I'm also disappointed in him and I think he can do better. I don't want to hear excuses like "my team's not good enough". Look at the Cavs... without Lebron, they'd struggle to win 15 games! Does he ***** about it? No. He brings his team to the NBA Finals and this year had one of the most amazing game 7's I've ever seen to take Boston to the brink of of defeat. Great players will their team's to win and it's becoming quite obvious to me that Tracy just doesn't seem to have that edge in the playoffs. I remember watching Hakeem when I was 7 years old in the finals. He played better in the playoffs then he did in the regular season and he was absolutely dominant in the fourth quarter like no player I'd ever seen. And I honestly don't think the team he had in that first championship was all that good....

And if T-Mac was having epic 4th quarters like Lebron and was losing to superior teams, than I could understand, but it's quite the opposite. It's like he's an elite player for 3 quarters and then shuts off in the 4th...

Tmac to da rack
06-03-2008, 10:54 AM
Please dont compare Lebron James whos in the East to Tracy Mcgrady whos in the west. The west is alot harder to get out of the 1st round then the East is. As for your comment that his an elite player the 1st 3 quaters and completely shuts down in the 4th quater, if thats the case, dont you think he gets tired and washed out in the 4th quater after doing all that work in the 1st 3 quaters in keeping his team in the game? Blame his teammates for not helping him out in the 4th quater to get the victory.

mightybosstone
06-03-2008, 10:54 AM
Your being overdramatic, I wouldnt call the foundation him and Yao established together as doing nothing, theyve always overachieved every 50 win season, when you consider the talent level of the teams ahead of them. They are what they are, and for them to win they need more help. These arent Kobe and Shaq type players, they never will be but you cant blame them for losing to superior teams, they were always competitive, the reason they couldnt close the deal was due to the lack of support, outside of the duo. Now with Scolandry, they arent lacking the frontcourt depth, the just need a slight tweak and they will be ready for war next year.

How am I being melodramatic? Are you satisfied with simply being "contenders" every year and losing in the first round in close playoff series? If so... thats great, but the rest of us remember what it was like to actually win playoff series and would like to see it happen again.

And don't tell me that they're "superior" teams. I'll give that to you this season because of Yao's injury, but not any other season. Even with the injury, they had as good a chance as anybody to make it past the first round. They had chances in several of those games to pull away with it in the 4th and Tracy didn't step up when he needed to. Over the years, "inferior" teams have done quite well in the playoffs. Look at Golden State knocking off Dallas. We had a 2-0 lead going home and still couldn't beat Dallas. And we weren't the 8 seed either! We've been in the 4-5 seed range every year and that matchup is generally a toss up, yet we always come out on the bottom end!

I'm not expecting Kobe and Shaq, but notice that the players on their team were all role players too and they still dominated the league for 3 seasons. If they can do that, Tracy and Yao should be able to at least win one friggin' playoff series!

mightybosstone
06-03-2008, 10:56 AM
Please dont compare Lebron James whos in the East to Tracy Mcgrady whos in the west. The west is alot harder to get out of the 1st round then the East is. As for your comment that his an elite player the 1st 3 quaters and completely shuts down in the 4th quater, if thats the case, dont you think he gets tired and washed out in the 4th quater after doing all that work in the 1st 3 quaters in keeping his team in the game? Blame his teammates for not helping him out in the 4th quater to get the victory.

Great players don't "get tired" in the 4th quarter and great players don't make excuses. They DEFINITELY don't blame their teammates for a loss. If you need to make excuses for him, then you're proving my point that he's obviously not an elite player...

Tmac to da rack
06-03-2008, 11:04 AM
Great players don't "get tired" in the 4th quarter and great players don't make excuses. They DEFINITELY don't blame their teammates for a loss. If you need to make excuses for him, then you're proving my point that he's obviously not an elite player...

Dude, your not getting the point here, lets use this last playoff series as an example, Tracy Mcgrady gave the Utah Jazz a battle and took them to 6 games, Tracy took this team as far as he could, the point your not getting hard headed is that he doesnt have help!!!! Who else other than Tracy Mcgrady and I guess Luis Scola helped the rockets score and create there own shot in the playoffs? I would like to see you try to carry a team in your back and try to beat a Proffesional NBA team all by yourself, it's not as easy as it looks. If Yao played in this series we would had DEFINATLY moved on to the 2nd round and who knows how much farther, Tracy Gave us a 22 game winning streak, 2nd highest in NBA HISTORY! Thats how good this team can be when everyones healthy. Oh and please dont say Lebron James can carry a team to the nba finals because I already told you, WEST 20 TIMES Thougher than the EAST.

dre1990
06-03-2008, 11:09 AM
I think everything is downhill for him for now on UNLESS he get's traded to a contender

mightybosstone
06-03-2008, 11:13 AM
Dude, your not getting the point here, lets use this last playoff series as an example, Tracy Mcgrady gave the Utah Jazz a battle and took them to 6 games, Tracy took this team as far as he could, the point your not getting hard headed is that he doesnt have help!!!! Who else other than Tracy Mcgrady and I guess Luis Scola helped the rockets score and create there own shot in the playoffs? I would like to see you try to carry a team in your back and try to beat a Proffesional NBA team all by yourself, it's not as easy as it looks. If Yao played in this series we would had DEFINATLY moved on to the 2nd round and who knows how much farther, Tracy Gave us a 22 game winning streak, 2nd highest in NBA HISTORY! Thats how good this team can be when everyones healthy. Oh and please dont say Lebron James can carry a team to the nba finals because I already told you, WEST 20 TIMES Thougher than the EAST.

You could have just said the word "excuse" a hundred times and that post would have said the same thing to me. The thing that you're not quite grasping is that he completely sucked in the 4th quarters of so many of those games in that Utah series! It had NOTHING to do with the people around him! Did you watch him in those games? He looked like a scared rookie in the 4th and got bullied all over the place... He missed a ton of shots, including free throws and stopped driving to the basket altogether. The 22 game winning streak was one of the most spectacular things I've ever seen. It wasn't all just Tracy though... it's a team sport. And that was the regular season, they don't give out championships for regular season accomplishments.

Am I proud that we gave Utah a series at all without Yao? Yes, but I think we could have won that series if Tracy had played better in the 4th. You can blame the injuries on Yao and Rafer. You can blame his teammates for not playing better. But you can't ignore how close some of those games were in the final minutes and how badly he played during that span of time...

DreamShaker
06-03-2008, 11:26 AM
Dude, your not getting the point here, lets use this last playoff series as an example, Tracy Mcgrady gave the Utah Jazz a battle and took them to 6 games, Tracy took this team as far as he could, the point your not getting hard headed is that he doesnt have help!!!! Who else other than Tracy Mcgrady and I guess Luis Scola helped the rockets score and create there own shot in the playoffs? I would like to see you try to carry a team in your back and try to beat a Proffesional NBA team all by yourself, it's not as easy as it looks. If Yao played in this series we would had DEFINATLY moved on to the 2nd round and who knows how much farther, Tracy Gave us a 22 game winning streak, 2nd highest in NBA HISTORY! Thats how good this team can be when everyones healthy. Oh and please dont say Lebron James can carry a team to the nba finals because I already told you, WEST 20 TIMES Thougher than the EAST.

Ok....I think what bosstones is trying to say.....is that T-Mac is a superstar....but not an elite player.....he mentioned Hakeem....who I also watched at a young age....I must be about 3 years older than Bosstones cause I think I was 10 when Hakeem won in 94.....but Hakeem had that knack for waiting till the right time to take over....in 94....his team was not great....the Knicks had the better overall roster....but Hakeem carried his team past Ewing and the Knicks.....T-Mac has never brought it to that next level at the right time....not even in the first round....when you get to game 7....you should be able to will your team to victory if you are an elite superstar or at least come close like Lebron did.....T-Mac did not give a great performance in an elimination game.....period. He never has.....he doesn't have that Duncan/Kobe/Shaq/Hakeem/Lebron/MJ/Magic/Kareem gene in him to know how to take over at just the right time at the most crucial moments....but how many people do??? T-Mac cannot carry a team to the promised land.....he needs Yao, and he needs a deep team.....is there anything wrong with that? No. He is what he is.....

Tmac to da rack
06-03-2008, 11:29 AM
I guess we can go back and forth all day but I already said everything I wanted to say in this thread and no longer want to continue this debating between us because we both have 2 different opinions, nice debating with you anyways.

mightybosstone
06-03-2008, 11:31 AM
Ok....I think what bosstones is trying to say.....is that T-Mac is a superstar....but not an elite player.....he mentioned Hakeem....who I also watched at a young age....I must be about 3 years older than Bosstones cause I think I was 10 when Hakeem won in 94.....but Hakeem had that knack for waiting till the right time to take over....in 94....his team was not great....the Knicks had the better overall roster....but Hakeem carried his team past Ewing and the Knicks.....T-Mac has never brought it to that next level at the right time....not even in the first round....when you get to game 7....you should be able to will your team to victory if you are an elite superstar or at least come close like Lebron did.....T-Mac did not give a great performance in an elimination game.....period. He never has.....he doesn't have that Duncan/Kobe/Shaq/Hakeem/Lebron/MJ/Magic/Kareem gene in him to know how to take over at just the right time at the most crucial moments....but how many people do??? T-Mac cannot carry a team to the promised land.....he needs Yao, and he needs a deep team.....is there anything wrong with that? No. He is what he is.....

I think this is the perfect middle point between what Chronz and I were discussing. The only difference is that I agree that T-Mac isn't probably ever going to win playoff games by himself, but I think that he could if he just applied himself more and had that vintage McGrady sneer in the 4th quarter of playoff games. Is there anything wrong with being a really good player? No... but I think he could be great.

Tmac to da rack
06-03-2008, 11:37 AM
Ok....I think what bosstones is trying to say.....is that T-Mac is a superstar....but not an elite player.....he mentioned Hakeem....who I also watched at a young age....I must be about 3 years older than Bosstones cause I think I was 10 when Hakeem won in 94.....but Hakeem had that knack for waiting till the right time to take over....in 94....his team was not great....the Knicks had the better overall roster....but Hakeem carried his team past Ewing and the Knicks.....T-Mac has never brought it to that next level at the right time....not even in the first round....when you get to game 7....you should be able to will your team to victory if you are an elite superstar or at least come close like Lebron did.....T-Mac did not give a great performance in an elimination game.....period. He never has.....he doesn't have that Duncan/Kobe/Shaq/Hakeem/Lebron/MJ/Magic/Kareem gene in him to know how to take over at just the right time at the most crucial moments....but how many people do??? T-Mac cannot carry a team to the promised land.....he needs Yao, and he needs a deep team.....is there anything wrong with that? No. He is what he is.....


94-95 rocket starting five
sam cassell
clyde drexler
kenny smith
Robert Horry
Hakeem Olajuwan
6th man Mario Elie

May 7, 2005 Game 7 Roster for rockets vs mavs
Sura
Wesley
Tmac
Scott Padgett
Yao
6th man Mike James

Now dreamshake Please tell me your comment is too unfair. Dont compare Dream who had a better supporting cast to Tmacs game 7 performances, thats all I have to say about that.

mightybosstone
06-03-2008, 12:11 PM
94-95 rocket starting five
sam cassell
clyde drexler
kenny smith
Robert Horry
Hakeem Olajuwan
6th man Mario Elie

May 7, 2005 Game 7 Roster for rockets vs mavs
Sura
Wesley
Tmac
Scott Padgett
Yao
6th man Mike James

Now dreamshake Please tell me your comment is too unfair. Dont compare Dream who had a better supporting cast to Tmacs game 7 performances, thats all I have to say about that.

That's the 94-95 lineup when we swept the Jazz.... We were referring to the 93-94 lineup without Drexler.

Tmac to da rack
06-03-2008, 12:24 PM
That's the 94-95 lineup when we swept the Jazz.... We were referring to the 93-94 lineup without Drexler.

Sam Cassell
Kenny smith
Mario Elie
Robert Horry
Dream
6th and 7th man
Maxwell who was awesome and Otis Thorpe
Same crap Maxwell and Thorpe steped up more then what they did the following season, Those rosters are alot better than Tmacs support Cast, so dont expect Tmac to do the same thing dream did.
Dream avg 29 ppg, 11rpg, 4bpg, 4.3 apg in 93-94 playoffs
Tmacs career playoff performances stats are 28.5ppg, 1.1bpg, 1.3spg,6.2apg, and 6.9 rpg so not much of a difference, the only difference is THERE SUPPORTING CAST!!!! LOL which ya dont get!!!!!!!

mightybosstone
06-03-2008, 12:37 PM
Sam Cassell
Kenny smith
Mario Elie
Robert Horry
Dream
6th and 7th man
Maxwell who was awesome and Otis Thorpe
Same crap Maxwell and Thorpe steped up more then what they did the following season, Those rosters are alot better than Tmacs support Cast, so dont expect Tmac to do the same thing dream did.
Dream avg 29 ppg, 11rpg, 4bpg, 4.3 apg in 93-94 playoffs
Tmacs career playoff performances stats are 28.5ppg, 1.1bpg, 1.3spg,6.2apg, and 6.9 rpg so not much of a difference, the only difference is THERE SUPPORTING CAST!!!! LOL which ya dont get!!!!!!!

Yeah, but look at the stats from that season....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html

They didn't even have a second elite player on that team (which they now have and did in the Dallas series). Cassell and Horry were practically toddlers that season. Maxwell and Smith's numbers are no better than Rafer Alston. Thorpe was starting to show signs of age (his only decent season after that was with Detroit in 95-96) and as much as I loved Mario Ellie, he was never really a starter in his career. He's like Battier, but weaker defensively. All of these guys were just solid role players. I don't think you can argue that this was an incredible team... Dream MADE it an incredible team.

Tmac to da rack
06-03-2008, 12:41 PM
What about the similar stat numbers in the playoffs by tmac and dream, not much of a difference there, except of course rebs and blocks.

ii77daman
06-03-2008, 05:35 PM
u can expect tmac to make excuses again,,,,settle for jumpers instead of attacking....throw his teammates in the line of fire.........

i said it here.....trade tmac for rip hamilton...........yao needs consistent good jump shooters.....and rip will fit perfectly with yao

mightybosstone
06-03-2008, 05:40 PM
What about the similar stat numbers in the playoffs by tmac and dream, not much of a difference there, except of course rebs and blocks.

Don't even compare the two. Dream was one of the most clutch gamers in playoff history. I swear, I don't think he ever missed a free throw with two minutes or less left in a playoff game. He has had some of the best individual playoff performances in the history of the NBA. McGrady has had some good games, but he just isn't clutch in the playoffs like we've seen him in the regular season.

Ballah0liC1
06-03-2008, 06:29 PM
u can expect tmac to make excuses again,,,,settle for jumpers instead of attacking....throw his teammates in the line of fire.........
i said it here.....trade tmac for rip hamilton...........yao needs consistent good jump shooters.....and rip will fit perfectly with yao

settling for jumpers if u watch the games or even highlights there is about 40 highlights of him driving in, even if thats taking the shot or passing.

if u dont remember he said last year it was on him and he still got crap, do u want him to be quiet sorry buddy leaders usally dont do that, damn matter of fact everyone was trying to get yao to be a vocal leader.

mightybosstone
06-03-2008, 06:41 PM
settling for jumpers if u watch the games or even highlights there is about 40 highlights of him driving in, even if thats taking the shot or passing.

if u dont remember he said last year it was on him and he still got crap, do u want him to be quiet sorry buddy leaders usally dont do that, damn matter of fact everyone was trying to get yao to be a vocal leader.

I don't care if he's quiet or if he's loud. I want him to win in the playoffs and he hasn't done it.... period.

BallerzDream
06-03-2008, 10:09 PM
I don't care if he's quiet or if he's loud. I want him to win in the playoffs and he hasn't done it.... period.


You mean you want the "team" to win the playoffs. Face it, (ha get it? some of you) you need a structure on your team to be a success.

t-mac1nukka
06-03-2008, 11:03 PM
I don't care if he's quiet or if he's loud. I want him to win in the playoffs and he hasn't done it.... period.

you just said it was a team thing didnt you???? kinda contradictory dont you think?

Chronz
06-03-2008, 11:40 PM
How am I being melodramatic? Are you satisfied with simply being "contenders" every year and losing in the first round in close playoff series? If so... thats great, but the rest of us remember what it was like to actually win playoff series and would like to see it happen again.
Your being overdramatic because your not putting much of an argument into your, its Tmac's fault theory for not getting past the 1st round. His teams have always overachieved with the talent on their roster.


And don't tell me that they're "superior" teams. I'll give that to you this season because of Yao's injury, but not any other season. Even with the injury, they had as good a chance as anybody to make it past the first round. They had chances in several of those games to pull away with it in the 4th and Tracy didn't step up when he needed to. Over the years, "inferior" teams have done quite well in the playoffs. Look at Golden State knocking off Dallas. We had a 2-0 lead going home and still couldn't beat Dallas. And we weren't the 8 seed either! We've been in the 4-5 seed range every year and that matchup is generally a toss up, yet we always come out on the bottom end!

Care to remind me who the Warriors lost to that same year and how they lost? Besides they arent a common occurrence, they were just perfectly built to take down the Mavs.


I'm not expecting Kobe and Shaq, but notice that the players on their team were all role players too and they still dominated the league for 3 seasons. If they can do that, Tracy and Yao should be able to at least win one friggin' playoff series!

Exactly it took Kobe and Shaq to win with role players, and even then their role players were better than the Rockets role players, even though its pretty close. Yao and Tmac cant win if their teams are undermanned/inferior

Chronz
06-03-2008, 11:43 PM
I think this is the perfect middle point between what Chronz and I were discussing. The only difference is that I agree that T-Mac isn't probably ever going to win playoff games by himself, but I think that he could if he just applied himself more and had that vintage McGrady sneer in the 4th quarter of playoff games. Is there anything wrong with being a really good player? No... but I think he could be great.

He basically repeated what I said, your expecting too much from Tmac when quite frankly hes not that good.

mightybosstone
06-04-2008, 02:41 AM
Your being overdramatic because your not putting much of an argument into your, its Tmac's fault theory for not getting past the 1st round. His teams have always overachieved with the talent on their roster.
First off... don't tell me that I'm not making an argument and don't tell me that I'm blaming the entire Rockets' playoff woes on him, because I'm not and I don't remember ever saying it was solely his fault. If anything, I'm the one making the argument that he ISN'T that good to those who think he IS.

You want cold, hard facts? Here ya go.... Game 4, T-Mac comes in with 8 minutes left to play down by only 5, and immediately turns the ball over leading to a basket on the other end by Boozer. He scores a total of 4 points, while turning the ball over twice, and missing two key free throws that would have made it a one possession game.

Game 2, T-Mac comes in with 7 minutes left down by only 2 points. He ends the quarter with a whole 1 point, missing on all 3 shot attempts (all outside of 18 feet), and missing a free throw which would have given them a lead. After missing the free throw, he turns the ball over a minute later. Those two plays were crucial as Utah pretty much coasted through the rest of the game...

I'd mention Game 1 here, but it doesn't quite have the same effect, because they were already down by 9 when he entered the game. Though, he was equally abysmal in crunch time of that game, as well.

All that being said, you could make the same argument that any other players mistakes were big in those 4th quarters. However, he's the best player on the team, and had played damn well in the first 3 quarters of all of those games. Why can't he be effective in the final moments?


Care to remind me who the Warriors lost to that same year and how they lost? Besides they arent a common occurrence, they were just perfectly built to take down the Mavs.

I'm well aware of who they lost to. I don't need a history lesson. My point is that the NBA playoffs are supposed to have a few elements of surprises and I absolutely refuse to believe that every single series that McGrady's Rockets have lost have been to "superior" teams or that they had no chance in those series to begin with. That's why they play the game! That's the reason Atlanta pushed Boston to 7 and how the Rockets won the Championship as a 6 seed back in 94-95. Sure, matchups have a lot to do with it, but I think that matchups mean pretty much bull**** with a few minutes left in the 4th quarter of close games.


Exactly it took Kobe and Shaq to win with role players, and even then their role players were better than the Rockets role players, even though its pretty close. Yao and Tmac cant win if their teams are undermanned/inferior

Stop using "undermanned" or "inferior" as an excuse. Most people thought the Knicks' team the Rockets played in 93-94 was superior... and that didn't mean much of anything. It's not like we're barely making the playoffs as 8 seeds and getting trounced by superior teams. We're losing close games we could win as 4-5 seeds.....

mightybosstone
06-04-2008, 02:48 AM
you just said it was a team thing didnt you???? kinda contradictory dont you think?

It is a team thing... when I say that I want to make it past the first round of the playoffs, does that mean I want T-Mac only to make it there? Hell no! You think if he was traded to another team, I would give a damn if he made the playoffs or not? I want the whole team to succeed and, as the leader of the Rockets, he has to be the first to take that extra step. I don't think the Rockets can win a playoff series without him playing better in the 4th quarter. They can add whatever pieces they want and even with a healthy Yao, they go nowhere without McGrady. He's the integral piece which makes the whole offense run and without him, the offense stalls and it turns too much into a "take the first open perimeter shot" or "feed Yao even when he's double teamed" kind of team.

mightybosstone
06-04-2008, 02:51 AM
You mean you want the "team" to win the playoffs. Face it, (ha get it? some of you) you need a structure on your team to be a success.

Obviously I want the Rockets to win in the playoffs. Am I in the Raptors or Magic forums talking about this? When I say I want him to "win"... mostly I just mean I want him to step up and prove himself. I think he's capable of doing it throughout the course of the regular season and has shown flashes in the playoffs, but he needs to be more consistent and learn to play at a higher level when the game is on the line.

Chronz
06-04-2008, 05:23 PM
First off... don't tell me that I'm not making an argument and don't tell me that I'm blaming the entire Rockets' playoff woes on him, because I'm not and I don't remember ever saying it was solely his fault. If anything, I'm the one making the argument that he ISN'T that good to those who think he IS.
Your suggesting the reason that they havent gotten past the first round is because of Tmac, when in actuality the teams theyve faced were always superior, most having 3 legit all-stars and an abundance of valuable role players:



You want cold, hard facts? Here ya go.... Game 4, T-Mac comes in with 8 minutes left to play down by only 5, and immediately turns the ball over leading to a basket on the other end by Boozer. He scores a total of 4 points, while turning the ball over twice, and missing two key free throws that would have made it a one possession game.

Check the "FACTS" for the entire series, the reason the Rockets are even winning is because of Tmac. You isolating single possessions only demonstrates your dramatic style.


Game 2, T-Mac comes in with 7 minutes left down by only 2 points. He ends the quarter with a whole 1 point, missing on all 3 shot attempts (all outside of 18 feet), and missing a free throw which would have given them a lead. After missing the free throw, he turns the ball over a minute later. Those two plays were crucial as Utah pretty much coasted through the rest of the game...

Crucial plays yes, game winning plays no, like Ive said plenty times before. Expecting Tmac to win every game at the end when hes just carried the team for the entire game isnt reasonable. Your expecting too much from him, aside from Lebron who carried as big a burden as Tmac did these playoffs? That combined with the fact that he meant so much to the teams offense tells me more about his ability than your isolated incidents.


I'd mention Game 1 here, but it doesn't quite have the same effect, because they were already down by 9 when he entered the game. Though, he was equally abysmal in crunch time of that game, as well.

The common occurence is that they load up on him every 4th quarter, they put their best defender on him, and they dare anyone else to shoot. Most teams have players who can make opponents play for overplaying their stars, the Rockets did not.


All that being said, you could make the same argument that any other players mistakes were big in those 4th quarters. However, he's the best player on the team, and had played damn well in the first 3 quarters of all of those games. Why can't he be effective in the final moments?

Because the defense is different, because fatigue plays a factor, and because they rely on him to do EVERYTHING. No other player carried such a burden, no other player meant as much to his teams offense.


I'm well aware of who they lost to. I don't need a history lesson. My point is that the NBA playoffs are supposed to have a few elements of surprises and I absolutely refuse to believe that every single series that McGrady's Rockets have lost have been to "superior" teams or that they had no chance in those series to begin with.
I never said they had no chance, Im just saying they lost to superior teams.


That's why they play the game! That's the reason Atlanta pushed Boston to 7 and how the Rockets won the Championship as a 6 seed back in 94-95. Sure, matchups have a lot to do with it, but I think that matchups mean pretty much bull**** with a few minutes left in the 4th quarter of close games.

I know you dont want to be preached to but a quick history lesson, check the numbers from every team thats ever been successful, odds are the best teams usually prevail. The ones who didnt had secondary players who played out of their mind. The Rockets of 96 were the defending champs, 6th seed or not they had the edge and were better than their record indicated.


Stop using "undermanned" or "inferior" as an excuse.
So long as it remains a matter of fact, then I will continue to use it.


Most people thought the Knicks' team the Rockets played in 93-94 was superior... and that didn't mean much of anything. It's not like we're barely making the playoffs as 8 seeds and getting trounced by superior teams. We're losing close games we could win as 4-5 seeds.....
This comparison doesnt make sense, the difference between this series and the series youve mentioned is that Ewings teammates stepped up and he didnt. They were more talented, the reason they couldnt win is because of how bad Ewing played. Something you could always say about Tmac is that he elevated his play in every playoff series in relation to his regular season. I see no reason to fault the one guy whos actually performing better than he did the rest of the year.

mightybosstone
06-04-2008, 06:37 PM
Your suggesting the reason that they havent gotten past the first round is because of Tmac, when in actuality the teams theyve faced were always superior, most having 3 legit all-stars and an abundance of valuable role players:{

Jazz? Deron Williams, Carlos Boozer and......??? Last time I checked, they were the team that beat us twice, and they really only did it with 2 superstars and roleplayers.



Check the "FACTS" for the entire series, the reason the Rockets are even winning is because of Tmac. You isolating single possessions only demonstrates your dramatic style. Crucial plays yes, game winning plays no, like Ive said plenty times before. Expecting Tmac to win every game at the end when hes just carried the team for the entire game isnt reasonable. Your expecting too much from him, aside from Lebron who carried as big a burden as Tmac did these playoffs? That combined with the fact that he meant so much to the teams offense tells me more about his ability than your isolated incidents. The common occurence is that they load up on him every 4th quarter, they put their best defender on him, and they dare anyone else to shoot. Most teams have players who can make opponents play for overplaying their stars, the Rockets did not. Because the defense is different, because fatigue plays a factor, and because they rely on him to do EVERYTHING. No other player carried such a burden, no other player meant as much to his teams offense.

Yes, the Rockets are there because of T-Mac and I love him for that. But I don't think you can make the argument that opposing defenses aren't gunning for him in the first 3 quarters as well. He's the only Rockets' player who really created his own shot and is unguardable in one on one situations... of course they're going to double team him every time he has the ball in his hands, not just in the 4th quarter. Yes, fatigue plays a factor. But you didn't really see Deron Williams folding down the stretch. Hell, Scola played damn well in the 4th quarters of some of those games and he was hustling every minute he was on the floor... so I don't really agree with fatigue as an excuse either.


I know you dont want to be preached to but a quick history lesson, check the numbers from every team thats ever been successful, odds are the best teams usually prevail. The ones who didnt had secondary players who played out of their mind. The Rockets of 96 were the defending champs, 6th seed or not they had the edge and were better than their record indicated.

I know this. Thanks for the obvious point of "better team usually wins". :rolleyes: My point is that the better team DOESN'T always win. In this series, Utah was the better team and I won't argue that. Did we still win two games, including one in Utah, and also play 3 other games very closely? Yes. And I don't think the Utah team we played last season was better than we were and I think the Dallas team we played was only marginally better (T-Mac + Yao > Dirk + Howard + Terry, but Dallas had a better bench).


This comparison doesnt make sense, the difference between this series and the series youve mentioned is that Ewings teammates stepped up and he didnt. They were more talented, the reason they couldnt win is because of how bad Ewing played. Something you could always say about Tmac is that he elevated his play in every playoff series in relation to his regular season. I see no reason to fault the one guy whos actually performing better than he did the rest of the year.

This actually makes no sense, if he did elevate his play in the playoffs, then why does he lie in the fetal position in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line? You tell me that he's the most important person on the entire Rockets' team, which I agree with. You tell me that the whole offense runs through him, which I agree with. You tell me that he plays very well in the first 3 quarters, which I agree with. Then you say, it's not his fault he plays badly in the 4th quarter, pat him on the back, and say "he wasn't that good to begin with". Do you realize how crazy that sounds?

Stepping back for a moment, this whole argument is pretty funny. You think he's really not that good, but are arguing for him and I think he's an elite player and am arguing against him. That's pretty odd. :D

Chronz
06-04-2008, 10:17 PM
Jazz? Deron Williams, Carlos Boozer and......??? Last time I checked, they were the team that beat us twice, and they really only did it with 2 superstars and roleplayers.
It must be nice when your role players are former All-Stars who are still playing like borderline all-stars. AK47, Milsap, Okur, Harpring, Brewer, and Korver make up a much better supporting cast than everyone outside of maybe Battier that play the same position on the Rockets team (Ie Scola vs Boozer, and Milsap vs Landry, Battier vs AK47/Harpring). In fact I have plenty of reason to believe the Jazz were the 2nd best team in the West this year. And the only piece from this year that they were missing last year was Korver.



Yes, the Rockets are there because of T-Mac and I love him for that. But I don't think you can make the argument that opposing defenses aren't gunning for him in the first 3 quarters as well.
Its really quite easy, Ive got the entire series stacked away in my DVD collection and I know for a fact that the way they played Tmac was dependent on the lineup and the clock. AK47 wasnt the primary defender when the game started, and they didnt attempt to take the ball out of his hands in the early going. Phil Jackson did this to Tim Duncan in their series with the Spurs. You dont give the same look to a single player all game, and for Tmac they didnt swarm him until the game got tight.


He's the only Rockets' player who really created his own shot and is unguardable in one on one situations... of course they're going to double team him every time he has the ball in his hands, not just in the 4th quarter.
They dont double him early, the point of doing this is so that he doesnt create an abundance of open looks for the Rockets 3pt shooters throughout the entire game, so come 4th quarter when the game is tight, none of his role players have as much of a rhythm. Its why the Rockets have been desperate for a 3rd scorer all these years, someone who can take advantage of the one on one play Tmac provides on kickouts, and why Rafer is so influential on the outcome of games when hes aggressive.


Yes, fatigue plays a factor. But you didn't really see Deron Williams folding down the stretch. Hell, Scola played damn well in the 4th quarters of some of those games and he was hustling every minute he was on the floor... so I don't really agree with fatigue as an excuse either.

You didnt really just compare Scola's offensive responsibility to Tmacs did you? Deron doesnt play the same way, he has the advantage of picking and choosing his spots because he has more support around him.


I know this. Thanks for the obvious point of "better team usually wins". :rolleyes: My point is that the better team DOESN'T always win.
Your being just as obvious, with that statement, and yes they dont ALWAYS win, but the majority of the time they do. Your hoping for miracles which is fine, but not at the expense of reality. The Rockets couldve won, but the facts are that they loss to a better team. Really no shame in it


In this series, Utah was the better team and I won't argue that. Did we still win two games, including one in Utah, and also play 3 other games very closely? Yes. And I don't think the Utah team we played last season was better than we were and I think the Dallas team we played was only marginally better (T-Mac + Yao > Dirk + Howard + Terry, but Dallas had a better bench).

Im sorry but if you think Dallas wasnt the better team then I dont know what to tell you but Ill try, Yao had not become the player he is today in Tmac's first year, that team traded away their insurance policy for Juwan, so when he went down they were forced to playin Ryan Bowen for god sakes.
Dallas won more games, and was the healthier squad, why exactly do you think they were equals? Just a reminder:

Dallas playoff roster
Jet, Finley, Howard, Dirk, Dampier, Stackhouse, Marquis, Devin, Keith Van Horn

Rockets had
Tmac, Yao, Deke, Sura and Mike James as the only notable talents who compared decently with the Dallas core. Even Jon Barry said the Rockets wouldve won if they hadnt surrounded Tmac/Yao with bums like himself who were on the decline.

The Utah team was the same minus Korver, it was close but the only reason it was close was because of how good Tmac and Yao were, outside of those 2 the Rockets had the better TEAM. I still remember the headline, Jazz's full house beats Rockets pair.


This actually makes no sense, if he did elevate his play in the playoffs, then why does he lie in the fetal position in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line?
What dont you understand? He raised his game because he carried the team better than he did in the regular season. He was a more effective player come playoff time, compared to the regular season.


You tell me that he's the most important person on the entire Rockets' team, which I agree with. You tell me that the whole offense runs through him, which I agree with. You tell me that he plays very well in the first 3 quarters, which I agree with. Then you say, it's not his fault he plays badly in the 4th quarter, pat him on the back, and say "he wasn't that good to begin with". Do you realize how crazy that sounds?

I tell you fatigue, defense, and the players around him have more to do with his performance than anything else. He plays good but when teams swarm you after youve carried your team for an entire game you need someone else to step up. I would be all over Tmac if he played this bad down the stretch of games if he had support that would result in less defensive attention, as in if he didnt need to do everything for the entire game just to have a chance at winning in the closing minutes, not when the team hes facing is superior.


Stepping back for a moment, this whole argument is pretty funny. You think he's really not that good, but are arguing for him and I think he's an elite player and am arguing against him. That's pretty odd. :D

I was thinking the same thing, it really is a twisted debate but heres my reasoning. Hes not that great to begin with that you cant expect him to be Kobe (Even Kobe doesnt do this every 4th quarter of a close game) and just seal the deal in the last quarter. But at the same time his play for the entirety of the game was amazing compared to how bad he was in the regular season, for those reasons and more I see no reason to blame Tmac for the Rockets losing to a superior team.

Chronz
06-04-2008, 10:27 PM
It was a good debate and thanks for not taking offense the way most usually do when I engage in such a lengthy convo, but this is the last response. Ill read what you have to say but its clear we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what direction the team heads into next year. Good fun see you next time

mightybosstone
06-05-2008, 12:58 AM
I don't want to respond to everything, because these debates are getting too long and you won't respond anyways.

I DO think the Dallas team was better, but only marginally because T-Mac and Yao are just that good. You look at Dallas' bench, which was definitely better, but nothing spectacular. Plus, Wesley, Sura, Barry, and Deke were old, but still pretty effective.

I think my main point in bringing up the Dallas series and the two Utah series are that these were NOT series that were unwinnable. If you take the first two games away from a team with home court advantage (like they did against Dallas), you should win that series, end of discussion. They did not and then got embarrassed in game 7 like I've never seen before. Also, if you have home court advantage in a series and are the higher seed, then you should win.... perhaps not in this last series minus Yao, but I think they should have won the first one against Utah.

I don't "blame" McGrady for any of those series, but this last one was a real disappointment. I realize he was still dealing with a shoulder injury. I realize that he was on the underdog team. I realize he was playing without Yao. But they had done that all season and made out pretty well for themselves and they played Utah damn close in 4 of those games. In the close games they lost, he played very poorly down the stretch and I don't believe that can happen if the Rockets ever expect to make the playoffs.



I was thinking the same thing, it really is a twisted debate but heres my reasoning. Hes not that great to begin with that you cant expect him to be Kobe (Even Kobe doesnt do this every 4th quarter of a close game) and just seal the deal in the last quarter. But at the same time his play for the entirety of the game was amazing compared to how bad he was in the regular season, for those reasons and more I see no reason to blame Tmac for the Rockets losing to a superior team.

I don't expect him to win every game in the 4th, but he just completely disappeared. He looked bewildered. He made poor choices and turned the ball over and seemed to lose all confidence offensively. I give a lot of credit to an incredible Utah defense (which I absolutely loathe) and a crafty coach in Jerry Sloan who I have a lot of respect for. But, we've all seen him defy the opposing defensive schemes and will this team to win and whether or not he's "that good", if we ever expect to make any kind of playoff run, thats the kind of player he's going to have to be.

Yes, it has been good arguing with you and I look forward to future arguments. I love to argue and only wish I could have majored in it.

Tmac to da rack
06-05-2008, 03:47 PM
Wow now back to arguing with chronz? I think it's 2-1, You lose buddy. Sorry but nice try mightybossman.

Russjr2
06-05-2008, 04:08 PM
Man, that was some good reading right there. Good points made by both. If/when we get that "one more good player" this summer I think T-Mac's game will blossom once again. When he sees that he has consistent help on the floor to carry some of the load, I think it will relax him and allow him to get proper rest during the year and be comfortable passing to somebody else to make a play (something he has never had). I just hope he and Yao can be healthy next May, we will be a team to be reckoned with.

mightybosstone
06-05-2008, 06:12 PM
Wow now back to arguing with chronz? I think it's 2-1, You lose buddy. Sorry but nice try mightybossman.

How did I lose? Just because there are two people who share the same opinion who oppose me? Big surprise.... it is a Rockets forum and I'm of a dissenting opinion. And it's not "mightybossman"... its mightybosstone, or MBT, as people call me around here. :cool:

Tmac to da rack
06-05-2008, 06:19 PM
Awesome bmt subway boy.:)

mightybosstone
06-05-2008, 06:25 PM
Awesome bmt subway boy.:)

Try it again.... slowly..... M......B........T

grega1976
06-05-2008, 10:55 PM
Chronz-
I agree with almost everything you said. However, I don't see how McGrady raised his game during the playoffs.. he took 5 more shots and 4 more ft's per game and only scored a little over 5 more ppg.. his fg% was less than 1% better, his 3pt% was down 9, and his ft% was down 6. His ast's were up, however his ast/to ratio was down. He did improve his rebounding considerably.. but as far as the rest of it was pretty much a wash.. and Lebron means more and does more for his team than TMac does for us.. IMO

TMAC94
07-05-2008, 03:42 AM
T-mac with third scorer
20ppg
10apg
9rpg
1steal
T-mac without third scorer
24ppg
7rpg
6apg
1steal

he would get 20.10.9 but if he did and didnt win mvp id kill the nba