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Sports Illustrator
05-03-2008, 12:36 PM
Carmelo Anthony: Not a Superstar

The fact is that Carmelo Anthony isnít as great as fans or even the NBA makes him out to be. Sure, he can score and rebound the ball, but there are other elements to the game that he is missing which keeps him away from being a super star player in the future. Elements such as getting his teammates more involved, having more of a defense mind and having a desire to play defense. Even though he is a very young player at age 23 (soon to be 24 on May 29th), he still wonít be the type of player that will play defense or get his teammates involved because this is the type of player he is already and the type of player that he will be from here on out.

The recent problem with the NBA is that there currently arenít that many great Small Forwards as oppose to Small Forwards who played in the 70ís, 80ís and 90ís. There is one thing I must say though; the NBA is certainly lucky to have such a young stud as Lebron James, considering the lack of Small Forwards currently playing in the NBA. I can guarantee anyone that Lebron James already is a superstar! He puts up the kind of numbers that a superstar performs already by getting all of his teammates involved, giving it his all consistently night in and night out, playing on both ends of the court not just on the offensive end of the court and already having the ability of taking his team to the finals at age 23 with a team who wasnít that great and wouldnít have even smelled a minute of the playoffs without Lebron James. Carmelo Anthony on the other hand wasnít able to achieve as much as Lebron James has already achieved during their NBA careers.

One reason why fans may think Carmelo Anthony will be a super star or has already become a super star is because he was named the starting Small Forward of the Western Conference All-Star team. That is mainly because of the lack of Small Forwards currently existing in the NBA, not really because of Carmelo Anthonyís performance. Why couldnít Carlos Boozer be a starter in the Western Conference All-Star team who is averaged 21.1 PPG and 10.4 RPG? Who shoots better percentage on the field and plays solid defense, as oppose to Carmelo Anthonyís 25.7 PPG and 7.4 RPG with no defense or even David West who averaged 22.6 PPG and 7 RPG. In fact, lets take someone who hasnít even made the All Star team, Al Jefferson who averaged 21.1 PPG and 11.10 RPG. That is all because of the fact that there are plenty of solid Power Forwards in the NBA as oppose to Small Forwards which there isnít that many of, unfortunately. On top of that, fans tend to overrate a players defense, not making it as important as their offense, when they are making their votes. In other words, fans may love Carmelo Anthony because of his tremendous offensive abilities (which not many players can do in the NBA) and completely ignore his defensive abilities. In a given night, Carmelo Anthony can give you 25 or 26 points per game, but what also are important are how many points Carmelo Anthonyís opponent scored on him. Those are the factors that should keep him away from being considered as a Super Star player and I hope fans realize this, or at least donít ignore it.

My point here however is not that Carmelo Anthony did not deserve to be the starting Small Forward of the Western Conference All-Star team though, my point is that there werenít too many options when it came to deciding who to put as the starting Small Forward of the Western Conference All-Star team. Notice how he was the only Small Forward in the Western Conference All-Star team. I do believe that he certainly is a solid All-Star player, mainly because of his offensive and rebounding abilities, but he likely wonít be anything more beyond that.

Sports Illustrator

arlubas
05-03-2008, 01:12 PM
I think the comparison people made for him back in his rookie year seems just about right at the moment: Glenn Robinson.

He'll be a great offensive player with solid rebounding numbers but not a player who can elevate his team's play to contender level at least if he continues like this in the future. But with that said I don't think his all star selection was a mistake and certainly not at the expense of Al Jefferson who you mentioned. True Al was impressive the past season but he wasn't that better than Melo numbers wise plus he was just putting up great numbers on a team filled with underachievers or players that haven't yet reached their potential.

Kohaku
05-03-2008, 01:25 PM
You hit the target on that, but if Carmelo learns to play defense, then everything would change.

joedoe_22
05-03-2008, 01:37 PM
Let's examine things for a moment:
Before even being drafted, the league was handed to Lebron. He's practically on a team with a bunch of mediocre or above average players (no stars), so he has to play at a higher level. I will give you that lebron's skills to include is teammates are great, but Carmelo is, can be, and will be a superstar. Last compare Anthony and James' careers. Anthony's team has made into the playoff every year he's been in the league even in his first year which Lebron's can't say about his. And now I think for Anthony, it's harder to be the man on your team when you a guy like A.I. and others who are shoot first players and your muscle guys are always injured.Carmelo needs to develop the skills of making others better definitely but how can he become the leader if who have another star who's as selfish as Melo is? I like A.I. but I think his presence stunts Melo's growth. The Celtics have three stars but they're willing to move aside for each other. Lebron has no star's to share the spotlight with him. So you can't really say Melo isn't going to be a superstar if he's hasn't received an extended opportunity to become the player that he needs to be. I still think he'll be a star maybe on another team or when A.I. leaves. But let's face it anyway. Melo will be the NBA' superstar because is "ghettoism" is unmarketable for corporate America.

Plus in terms of ability, the guys can put up 50 points in a game. The guy was the leading scorer in the NBA last year and still almost miss the all-star game because of that stupid overblown brawl with the Knicks that he's usually blamed for but it was more of Nate Robinson's instigation that made things worse. Plus when you have the media making look bad or sensationalizing your mistakes, how can anyone ever see you in a good light? Lebron James got stop for driving at 110 mph. You don't think people's lives were at danger then? But he never got suspended and story's been forgotten. I think Melo's road to becoming a superstar will be hard with the fact that he's not the clean faced, clean cut guy lebron is plus his lack of desire to imrpove on the court in many area.

Corey
05-03-2008, 02:16 PM
He's Paul Pierce with more hops, a less consistent jumper, less post moves, and worse defense. He still has plenty of time to get better, but he's pretty overrated right now.

JordansBulls
05-03-2008, 03:28 PM
I think he is a superstar but not a franchise player.

daleja424
05-03-2008, 03:56 PM
Let's examine things for a moment:
Before even being drafted, the league was handed to Lebron. He's practically on a team with a bunch of mediocre or above average players (no stars), so he has to play at a higher level. I will give you that lebron's skills to include is teammates are great, but Carmelo is, can be, and will be a superstar. Last compare Anthony and James' careers. Anthony's team has made into the playoff every year he's been in the league even in his first year which Lebron's can't say about his. And now I think for Anthony, it's harder to be the man on your team when you a guy like A.I. and others who are shoot first players and your muscle guys are always injured.Carmelo needs to develop the skills of making others better definitely but how can he become the leader if who have another star who's as selfish as Melo is? I like A.I. but I think his presence stunts Melo's growth. The Celtics have three stars but they're willing to move aside for each other. Lebron has no star's to share the spotlight with him. So you can't really say Melo isn't going to be a superstar if he's hasn't received an extended opportunity to become the player that he needs to be. I still think he'll be a star maybe on another team or when A.I. leaves. But let's face it anyway. Melo will be the NBA' superstar because is "ghettoism" is unmarketable for corporate America.

Plus in terms of ability, the guys can put up 50 points in a game. The guy was the leading scorer in the NBA last year and still almost miss the all-star game because of that stupid overblown brawl with the Knicks that he's usually blamed for but it was more of Nate Robinson's instigation that made things worse. Plus when you have the media making look bad or sensationalizing your mistakes, how can anyone ever see you in a good light? Lebron James got stop for driving at 110 mph. You don't think people's lives were at danger then? But he never got suspended and story's been forgotten. I think Melo's road to becoming a superstar will be hard with the fact that he's not the clean faced, clean cut guy lebron is plus his lack of desire to imrpove on the court in many area.

Josh Howard
Leandro Barbosa
Kendrick Perkins
Carlos Delfino
Brian Cook
Boris Diaw
David West
Mickael Pietrus
Kirk Heinrich
Chris Kaman
Dwayne Wade
Darco Millicic
Jaosn Kapono
Luke Walton
Keith Bogans
Matt Bonner
Kyle Korver

...what do all of these players have in common?

daleja424
05-03-2008, 03:57 PM
They were all drafted after Lebron James in 2003 and havve all been in a second round playoff game.

Sports Illustrator
05-03-2008, 09:14 PM
I think the comparison people made for him back in his rookie year seems just about right at the moment: Glenn Robinson.

He'll be a great offensive player with solid rebounding numbers but not a player who can elevate his team's play to contender level at least if he continues like this in the future. But with that said I don't think his all star selection was a mistake and certainly not at the expense of Al Jefferson who you mentioned. True Al was impressive the past season but he wasn't that better than Melo numbers wise plus he was just putting up great numbers on a team filled with underachievers or players that haven't yet reached their potential.

Offensively Carmelo Anthony is ten times better than Al Jefferson, but Al Jefferson is a better defensive player overall. This doesn't necessarily mean Al Jefferson is better though. Their numbers are very similar though, the same could be said for Carlos Boozer and David West who are both in playoff teams.

I never said Carmelo Anthony's All-Star selection was a mistake, I said he was named the starter because of the lack of Small Forwards in the NBA. Normally a starter in an All-Star could or already is a superstar, but that is not the case with Carmelo Anthony. That was the whole point I made about his All-Star selection.

DenButsu
05-03-2008, 10:24 PM
I have the day off with my wife today, so I'll have to return to this tomorrow.

But rest assured, I will retort. :)

IndiansFan337
05-03-2008, 11:10 PM
You hit the target on that, but if Carmelo learns to play defense, then everything would change.

I don't think too many people expect him to "learn," at this point.

joedoe_22
05-04-2008, 07:11 PM
Josh Howard
Leandro Barbosa
Kendrick Perkins
Carlos Delfino
Brian Cook
Boris Diaw
David West
Mickael Pietrus
Kirk Heinrich
Chris Kaman
Dwayne Wade
Darco Millicic
Jaosn Kapono
Luke Walton
Keith Bogans
Matt Bonner
Kyle Korver

...what do all of these players have in common?

Now how many of those guys are the best player on their team? 1 (only Wade). You can't give credit to players who aren't the best player or number 1 options on their teams.

daleja424
05-04-2008, 07:35 PM
Now how many of those guys are the best player on their team? 1 (only Wade). You can't give credit to players who aren't the best player or number 1 options on their teams.

Mello's not the number one option on his team either...

Wrigleyboy25
05-05-2008, 12:34 AM
Melo's a good kid and needs a better mentor. You saw what he did in Syracuse under a coach like Jim Boeheim--he won a national championship. The guy needs to be brought back down to earth a bit and needs a coach who is going to whip him into shape. George Karl is not that guy and Denver isn't going to win unless they get some defensive help.

Carmelo obviously needs to improve in that aspect, but someone needs to light a fire under him, because he is an incredible talent, and is a guy you build a team around.

Consider the fact that had those Nuggets been in the East, we might not even be having this conversation.

jbeezy
05-05-2008, 01:39 AM
Imagine if Phil Jackson was his coach :drool:

DenButsu
05-05-2008, 03:49 AM
Okay, SI, put up your dukes, cause them's fightin' words!

No, not really of course, but I do need to set you straight on a few points about Melo. And I'm not even going to touch the All-Star issue. Fan voting doesn't mean squat to me. So I'm going to strictly limit my response to your analysis of Anthony himself, in terms of where is game is at now and where it's going.

And let me just start by getting a few things clear. First, a little bit later I'm going to quote Kobe, who compared Melo's current situation to his own former situation. But by doing this I AM NOT COMPARING MELO TO KOBE, so nobody get your panties all in a bunch. I'm just using that, by way of example, for some insight into Anthony's present state of mind and of ability as a basketball player.

Second, there is much in your writeup, SI, that I fully or partially agree with, and so I'd like to start with that. Some problems with Melo you described:


{H}e is missing... Elements such as... having more of a defense mind and having a desire to play defense... Carmelo Anthony ...wasnít able to achieve as much as Lebron James has already achieved during their NBA careers.

You won't find many knowledgeable Nuggets fans who will defend Melo's defense. It is crystal clear that this is the weakest area of his game, and just as clear that it's largely due to his lack of effort at times on that end of the court. I still don't believe that he lacks the capability of being a very good defender, though, because he has shown the ability to defend well when he has given it his all. But that's a point that will remain moot until he actually does put in that kind of effort consistently, so for now the knock on his defense is quite valid. And no, he's never made it out of the first round, let alone led his team to the Finals or been a viable MVP candidate, so of course he hasn't achieved as much as LeBron - but then, I don't think anybody, even the biggest Melo fan, is claiming that he has.

So, I'll concede his weak defense and lack of major accomplishments in comparison with other superstar players (whose numbers are very few, for what it's worth), but that's where we part ways.

The two main points you make that I really have to take issue with are:

1) your prognosis for Melo never becoming "real superstar" material in the future, and

2) the idea that he fails (and will continue failing in the future) to be a playmaker a la LBJ to the extent that he should. As you put it,


{H}e is missing... Elements such as getting his teammates more involved... Even though he is a very young player at age 23 (soon to be 24 on May 29th), he still wonít be the type of player that will play defense or get his teammates involved because this is ... the type of player that he will be from here on out... I do believe that he certainly is a solid All-Star player... but he likely wonít be anything more beyond that.

I have never understood, and still don't understand, why so many people have been saying for so long that "Melo will never get any better", when the fact is that he's been constantly improving his game ever since he entered the NBA, with the sole possible exception of his second season.

A quick look at some stats:


YR FG% 3P% STL AST
03-04 .426 .322 1.2 2.8
04-05 .431 .266 0.9 2.6
05-06 .481 .243 1.1 2.7
06-07 .476 .268 1.2 3.8
07-08 .492 .354 1.3 3.4

YR OFF DEF TOT PTS
03-04 2.2 3.8 6.0 21.0
04-05 1.9 3.8 5.7 20.8
05-06 1.5 3.4 4.9 26.5
06-07 2.2 3.8 6.0 28.9
07-08 2.3 5.1 7.4 25.7

He tends not to have an overall, across the board improvement each season as much as improving one or two specific areas of his game. I think those stats pretty much speak for themselves, so I won't dig too deeply into them, other than just to point out that in many areas he's shown a steady progression (albeit sometimes slow), while when he's taken a significant step up it's tended to stick. Now naturally, all of us Melo fans are frustrated, still waiting for the time when the area he chooses to upgrade will finally be his defense. But his aptitude for improving his game, and his track record on doing so, are proven.

There is absolutely nothing concrete to suggest he can't improve his defense in the future, and become that more complete player we've all been wanting to see. Now, in terms of attitude and immaturity, there is reason to question whether he will choose to play with more heart, intensity and effort (especially on the defensive end) in the future, but as you pointed out, he is only 23 going on 24, and in my humble opinion to suggest that he lacks the ability to become a superstar is fairly ludicrous. He's still got the size, quickness, shooting ability and natural basketball prowess to be an elite player in the league, and he's still got a long future ahead of him.

Now, as to the question of getting his teammates involved, I'd like to bring in a word from Kobe Bryant, as he was quoted by the Denver Post (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/apr/29/fans-quick-to-acquit-anthony/) discussing Melo's situation in his postgame comments after game 3:


Management has to do something because I'm more than happy to take the pressure of wins and losses. I'm fine with that. But if I'm going to go into a gunfight, I want to have a gun. . . . We lose, blame me. I'm fine with that.' I think he just has to accept the pressure. When you're the guy here, you got to deal with it. When you're winning, it's all good. When you lose, it's your fault. . . . The one advantage I had is that I handled the ball a lot . . . I could go on runs where I could beat teams literally by myself. In his situation, it's a little more difficult for him. . . . You need help, though.

When you think "Denver Nuggets" and "ball handling", what's the first thing that comes to mind?

If you answered "AI dribbles the ball into the ground and dominates the ball too much", then you are correct, sir.

It is extremely difficult for Carmelo to be a playmaker who gets his teammates involved, when not only does he rarely initiate the offense, it's more often than not that the ball doesn't even reach his hands until there are only 10-12 seconds remaining on the clock. When he does, he's instantly double teamed. Marcus Camby is standing around at the top of the key hoping to take a long range jumper. Melo wisely doesn't pass to him too often. K-Mart is usually on the other side of the double team, not moving well enough off the ball to make effective cuts to the hoop. Melo gets it to him when he can, but with K usually not positioned too well, even when he passes it too him it's often a mid-range brick instead of the slam dunk it should be. His remaining two options... Anthony Carter on the perimeter. Ouch. So what's left? Either Melo or AI is going to try to force the play. Fortunately, they're both good enough to make those shots fall much of the time at decent percentages (see Melo's ..492, fantastic for as many wing shots as he takes). Unfortunately, however, that's a fundamentally poor way to run an offense.

But what would happen if Melo were to play alongside a true playmaking point guard and a big power forward with some true post scoring ability? Oh, wait, that did happen once. It was in the 2006-07 season, before the Iverson trade, when Andre Miller and Nene were in the starting lineup.

Look back at those assist numbers in Melo's stats, at the jump after 05-06, from 2.7 to 3.8. What you're really seeing there is only half the story. Because in fact, in the 2006-07 season, when Carmelo played without Iverson in the game (before the trade and when AI sat out due to injuries) compared with when he played alongside AI, there's a big difference.

In 30 games without Iverson, Melo was averaging 4.43 assists per game.

In the 35 where AI played, that dropped to 3.31.

(see here (http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4089/melo0607astwandwoutaidw3.png) for the complete numbers)

So when Melo handles the ball more, he has the willingness and ability to be a much better playmaker than he's got the reputation for being.

He's definitely at a crossroads now. It's up to him to make a new commitment to his defense, and his overall effort and intensity. And it's up to his front office to surround him with a supporting cast that's better suited to amplifying his strengths. If both of these things happen, then yes, he will be a true superstar in the NBA.

chadillachembre
05-05-2008, 08:00 PM
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING THIS!!! i have never been too hot on carmelo. he can score as well as any player in the nba but you wont get a thing more from the guy. he cant rebound, he cant defend, he cant shoot the 3, and he cant be a leader or be the foundation of a franchise. denver is the fool in the whole situation. carmelo could look like an incredible super star if they knew how to hide his flaws. if a team wants to build around him they should be wise enough to not build a team that has the same game as he does. denver would be a great team if it was more defensive minded with its players they bring in. its obvious you cant win with abunch of "carmelos" on your team but management has done a terrible job at bringing the correct players to compliment his skills.

DenButsu
05-05-2008, 10:53 PM
he cant rebound... he cant shoot the 3

Wrong and wrong.

Carmelo is actually one of the best rebounders at his position, especially in the offensive rebounds department. This season, Lebron averaged 7.9 rebounds per game, Melo had 7.4 - very small difference there, and it doesn't even account for the fact that Karl instructs Melo to leak out on most possessions so the Nuggets can try to capitalize on fast break opportunities, or the fact that Melo has the 3rd leading rebounder in the NBA backing him up which allows him the freedom to leak out like that.

And Melo's 3-point percentage his season is .354. Compare that with .361 for Kobe and .315 for LeBron. And his overall shooting percentage is .492, which considering the majority of his shots are double-teamed mid-range jumpers, is really solid. But part of the reason his overall fg% increased again this season is that he greatly improved his 3 shot.


I have no problem with people criticizing Melo for the things he deserves to be criticized for - like his defense.

But the above two points are just not on point.

mgthompson
05-06-2008, 12:12 AM
Melo was extremely effective when Andre Miller was at the point. Melo may not intiate his offense but he may not need to.

A good PG raises Melo's effectiveness, oh and also a coach that knows how to utilize Melo's strengths as well.

Melo would be a much better player if he had better compliments.

Starting line-up

Anthony Carter
AI
Melo
KMart
Camby

On the offensive end when Melo has the ball, who really is a threat to keep defenses from cheating over to melo. AI perhaps, except AI is most effective when he has the ball and he does not move without the ball.

Carter is not a shooting threat, KMart is not a good jumpshooter and is most effective right at the rim, and Camby is not a post guy and circles the perimeter where he is not a threat. How can Melo get space with that line-up.

With this lineup all year Melo would get a double team, with another player cheating over. Melo has limited options. He can try to drive and get met by 3 or 4 players in the paint, shoot a turn around J in a double team, or dish it out to teammates who are no threats on the outside (Camby, Carter). Unless JR is in there is not a pure outside threat. AI is not a threat on the outside, even though he can hit a three he tends to pass on a open look and drive into traffic. That is just his type of game.

Melo can be a great player although he is much more effective when he has players to compliment him.

Chronz
05-06-2008, 04:13 AM
Melo was extremely effective when Andre Miller was at the point. Melo may not intiate his offense but he may not need to.

A good PG raises Melo's effectiveness, oh and also a coach that knows how to utilize Melo's strengths as well.

Melo would be a much better player if he had better compliments.

Starting line-up

Anthony Carter
AI
Melo
KMart
Camby

On the offensive end when Melo has the ball, who really is a threat to keep defenses from cheating over to melo. AI perhaps, except AI is most effective when he has the ball and he does not move without the ball.

Carter is not a shooting threat, KMart is not a good jumpshooter and is most effective right at the rim, and Camby is not a post guy and circles the perimeter where he is not a threat. How can Melo get space with that line-up.

With this lineup all year Melo would get a double team, with another player cheating over. Melo has limited options. He can try to drive and get met by 3 or 4 players in the paint, shoot a turn around J in a double team, or dish it out to teammates who are no threats on the outside (Camby, Carter). Unless JR is in there is not a pure outside threat. AI is not a threat on the outside, even though he can hit a three he tends to pass on a open look and drive into traffic. That is just his type of game.

Melo can be a great player although he is much more effective when he has players to compliment him.

While its true that players can have an impact in your individual effectiveness, the whole point of the term "Superstar" is that your more self reliant than other players. If Melo needs a perfectly constructed team to bring out superstar talent in him then maybe hes not a superstar. I couldnt imagine Kobe or Bron being like that.

DenButsu
05-06-2008, 10:08 AM
While its true that players can have an impact in your individual effectiveness, the whole point of the term "Superstar" is that your more self reliant than other players. If Melo needs a perfectly constructed team to bring out superstar talent in him then maybe hes not a superstar. I couldnt imagine Kobe or Bron being like that.

Although that doesn't address the point I raised in my post (or more specifically, that Kobe Bryant raised about Melo), which is that it's hard to take the helm for your team and take control of games when you're not the primary ball handler, and even harder when the primary ball handler totally dominates the ball 75% of the time.

Chronz
05-06-2008, 04:40 PM
Then the question must be asked, why arent you the primary ball-handler, and why is that stopping you from taking control of the team/game? I could never imagine Kobe not taking the ball whenever necessary or even when he plays off the ball he still in complete control of the game, even if he had AI on the team.

To me its clear they want to keep him on a scoring role and constant attack mode, its his game type. In order to be a star in that role you have to be more self sufficient. If he were to have top of the key game like Tmac and Bron have, then Im sure the Nuggets would utilize it more often. I really dont think he has it in him.

mgthompson
05-06-2008, 05:36 PM
Then the question must be asked, why arent you the primary ball-handler, and why is that stopping you from taking control of the team/game? I could never imagine Kobe not taking the ball whenever necessary or even when he plays off the ball he still in complete control of the game, even if he had AI on the team.

To me its clear they want to keep him on a scoring role and constant attack mode, its his game type. In order to be a star in that role you have to be more self sufficient. If he were to have top of the key game like Tmac and Bron have, then Im sure the Nuggets would utilize it more often. I really dont think he has it in him.

He doesn't have the ball-handling skills or quickness like Bron or TMac. Melo is a different type of player than those players.

I'm not saying he is or isn't a superstar, main thing is that people expect him to be things that he is not. He is not a flashy type player, that is agile like all the all-stars we like to watch.

Melo comes as advertised, a scorer, with a good mid-range jumper, with the ability to get to the line. He won't be very effective on D which is why I mentioned that he needs compliments.

Chronz
05-07-2008, 12:28 AM
He doesn't have the ball-handling skills or quickness like Bron or TMac. Melo is a different type of player than those players.

I'm not saying he is or isn't a superstar, main thing is that people expect him to be things that he is not. He is not a flashy type player, that is agile like all the all-stars we like to watch.

Melo comes as advertised, a scorer, with a good mid-range jumper, with the ability to get to the line. He won't be very effective on D which is why I mentioned that he needs compliments.

Yea thats basically what I was thinking, Im not expecting him to play like anyone thats why I was saying he has to be more self-sufficient to be a superstar playing the game the way he does, its not impossible he can still control the game and expand his range abit if he really wants to.

Hes good but streaky at a few aspects in his attack. His mid-range is definitely a weapon though it can be very detrimental to his game because hes not as consistent with it as other players are, slashing is usually his most consistent weapon but if he has games where his midrange is completely off then it really suffers. Still, hes a great scorer, that much we know but in order to be considered a superstar he has to be a historically great scorer, with a more diversified offensive game.

I actually like his offensive game, its pretty comparable to Paul Pierce's early phases except that his range extended further and he could handle the ball better in transition though neither players were primary ball handlers playing alongside ball dominant PG's or teammates, so their main role was to score the hell out of the ball, but unlike Melo, Pierce found more ways to involve his teammates with his possessions. It may sound odd considering Melo averages more assists, but Pierce had the higher assist rate in relation to the amount of possessions they accounted for. Its not a great difference mind you but one that would be an obvious trend in Pierce's game as he developed. I would like to see Melo make the same leap but I do agree with your point on in order to get there, better players alongside him would help.

DenButsu
05-07-2008, 12:57 AM
I actually like his offensive game, its pretty comparable to Paul Pierce's early phases except that his range extended further

People talk a lot more about his increase in rebounds, but I think one of the most important improvements Melo made this season was the addition of a fairly legit 3 shot to his repertoire. Not only did he increase his percentage, but he did so smartly - or in other words, he didn't get overly excited about that and turn into a 3 chucker. He continued to use the 3 sparingly throughout the season, but at times it was a real dagger in his arsenal.

This is one of the reasons I don't buy the "he can't get much better" line of thinking. Although it's true that he's stubbornly resisted becoming a more defensive minded player over the years, in so many other ways he's proven himself to be a very good learner (not the highest b-ball IQ in the league, but he's a lot smarter than people give him credit for), and to be very coachable. You might hear a lot of hype about how much of a "thug" and "punk" he is, but all of that stuff really boils down to stupid, heat-of-the-moment screwups. He's never embattled in bitter coach-player disputes, he's never a locker room problem. In certain ways, despite his reputation for selfishness, he's a really good team player (even if that doesn't always directly translate into assists).

I hope this season's end, and getting blown out in the playoffs was his equivalent of an alcoholic hitting bottom - his "moment of epiphany" that will wake him up to a new, broader awareness of where he needs to take his game, and how he needs to take it there. Ultimately that will be the deciding factor between whether he stagnates at his current level (which I'd agree isn't truly elite yet), or ascends to something resembling genuine superstardom. I think the ability is there for sure, if he backs it up with desire and effort.

Chronz
05-08-2008, 03:33 AM
People talk a lot more about his increase in rebounds, but I think one of the most important improvements Melo made this season was the addition of a fairly legit 3 shot to his repertoire. Not only did he increase his percentage, but he did so smartly - or in other words, he didn't get overly excited about that and turn into a 3 chucker. He continued to use the 3 sparingly throughout the season, but at times it was a real dagger in his arsenal.
Yea I didnt really notice how much better he shot from distance, he did so without really changing his game much. His inside shooting % was also higher so it obviously opened the game up abit for him and his turnover rate was in the same ballpark. Overall it was his most efficient scoring season but really not by much because he got to the line slightly less. And theres also the possibility that this season could be an outlier, I remember Melo's rookie year he shot 32% and never went above that mark till this year. I think he'll have to either make more of them if hes going to take so little or take more of them, atleast if hes to be a historical type scorer.

Hes already as elite a rebounder as you can be at the position, but so is Lebron, and Josh Howard among star players though Melo does hold an edge because of his superior work on the offensive glass (thanks in part to AI's constant penetration)


This is one of the reasons I don't buy the "he can't get much better" line of thinking. Although it's true that he's stubbornly resisted becoming a more defensive minded player over the years, in so many other ways he's proven himself to be a very good learner (not the highest b-ball IQ in the league, but he's a lot smarter than people give him credit for), and to be very coachable. You might hear a lot of hype about how much of a "thug" and "punk" he is, but all of that stuff really boils down to stupid, heat-of-the-moment screwups. He's never embattled in bitter coach-player disputes, he's never a locker room problem. In certain ways, despite his reputation for selfishness, he's a really good team player (even if that doesn't always directly translate into assists).

Im sure his defense isnt as bad as its advertised but being paired with AI and AC expose him abit, its sad really but thats how the game works. Anyways he does a passive job against SF's but hes incapable of having stretches where he contains the teams most explosive scorer on the perimeter not just at his position. Lateral movement will never be his strength but on a team devoid of stoppers (that get playing time Diawara doesnt count) his defense looks worse than it actually is.

As for his teamwork, you have to be a great teammate in order to share the ball with AI, and Ive never associated assists as a measure of teamwork. Its a measure of playmaking and one which context has to be reviewed to the parameters of his role.


I hope this season's end, and getting blown out in the playoffs was his equivalent of an alcoholic hitting bottom - his "moment of epiphany" that will wake him up to a new, broader awareness of where he needs to take his game, and how he needs to take it there. Ultimately that will be the deciding factor between whether he stagnates at his current level (which I'd agree isn't truly elite yet), or ascends to something resembling genuine superstardom. I think the ability is there for sure, if he backs it up with desire and effort.

It would take him reaching the highs he played at during the beginning of last years campaign, before AI. It may sound impossible, but not if Melo is to become a superstar. He has to find ways to score more efficiently if thats to be his main focus, after all if AI is taking so much of the ball handling then he should be less prone to turnovers than LeBron who shoulders the burden of not only creating offense for himself but his teammates.

As for his passing, if the Nuggets were to mix up their half-court sets to include more movement around him then maybe we could get a better handle on how good a passer he is, but so far every coach that took him on made sure he was mostly a finisher than a setup man.




If I were to guess whos career Melo's will most likely follow it would be Niques, thats a huge leap from who I thought he would be as a rookie (Big Dog), both are top notch finishers and rebounders. But what made Nique (a truly underrated player IMO) a better player than Melo was that because it was never his role to create for his teammates, on his drives he would either dunk, miss, or get fouled, but never turned it over. Thats basically the next step I see Melo taking. Just by taking better care of the ball should net him more PTS. To Melo's credit Nique was a rookie by the time Melo was a 5 year vet, and didnt possess Melo's midrange game.

Lost Art
05-08-2008, 03:52 AM
Melo's biggest defficiency is on the defensive end of the court...........until he improves that aspect of his game the Nuggets are going to continue to struggle. You can't have your two best players be your two worst defenders, that's not a recipe for success. That's why guys like Kobe, Duncan, and KG are successful, they set the tone for their team on both ends of the floor.

nygiants242
05-09-2008, 12:25 PM
Melo's biggest defficiency is on the defensive end of the court...........until he improves that aspect of his game the Nuggets are going to continue to struggle. You can't have your two best players be your two worst defenders, that's not a recipe for success. That's why guys like Kobe, Duncan, and KG are successful, they set the tone for their team on both ends of the floor.

I completely agree.. his defense is lackluster but if u compare to somebody like Kobe (MVP!!) who does it both on the offensive and defensive side hes nothing.. hes purely a scorer.. oh and i forgot a complainer that cries about every call

Randy West
05-09-2008, 01:38 PM
Melo is not a superstar

Good player for sure

A superstar is a guy like Jordan or Kobe, Bird, Magic...........a guy that can take control of the ball and his team and will them to victory almost by themselves

Melo is not that guy

Could he become that guy..........only time will tell but I sure don't see it.

I don't think it is his game to be that guy..........not in his mindset so to speak.

jrice9
05-09-2008, 05:32 PM
you guys really make AI sound useless. He doesnt fit well with melo but he was a superstar in philly and could be one on a team that used him right

JordansBulls
05-09-2008, 08:24 PM
Melo is in the same range of stars like Pierce, Carter, Arenas, etc.

Are those guys superstars?

These guys below for sure are superstars.

Duncan
CP3
Kobe
Garnett
Lebron
Amare
Dwight


Anyone else missing?

ivyleague1
05-09-2008, 10:38 PM
Melo is in the same range of stars like Pierce, Carter, Arenas, etc.

Are those guys superstars?

These guys below for sure are superstars.

Duncan
CP3
Kobe
Garnett
Lebron
Amare
Dwight


Anyone else missing?






There are only few Super stars amongst those currently playing

Shaq and Iverson, Duncan, Garnet , Kobe. A Superstar is not a player that is playing great or even like a superstar in one, two, or three seasons, He is someone whose cummulative performance is as such that if he stops playing he will continue to be a Superstar. In other words how he plays currently does not affect his Superstardom, and he will be considered for hall of fame. This definition applies to all sports and not just to basketball.

Sports Illustrator
05-22-2008, 10:47 PM
Melo is in the same range of stars like Pierce, Carter, Arenas, etc.

Are those guys superstars?

These guys below for sure are superstars.

Duncan
CP3
Kobe
Garnett
Lebron
Amare
Dwight


Anyone else missing?

Exactly, you nailed it.

I see Carmelo Anthony as being a Vince Carter/Paul Pierce type of All-Star, but I can't put him in the same level as players like Kobe Bryant, Lebron James and Chris Paul. I'd wonder who'd be the starting Small Forward of the Western Conference All-Star team if someone like Paul Pierce was in the West while playing as well as he did this season, that alone is an interesting concept.

Gilbert Arenas I think could be considered an All-Star player, but I do recognize that is very much debatable. I think he hasn't pushed his team hard enough to be considered a Super-Star but talent wise, he is Super-Star material.

DenButsu
05-23-2008, 02:48 AM
Exactly, you nailed it.

I see Carmelo Anthony as being a Vince Carter/Paul Pierce type of All-Star, but I can't put him in the same level as players like Kobe Bryant, Lebron James and Chris Paul. I'd wonder who'd be the starting Small Forward of the Western Conference All-Star team if someone like Paul Pierce was in the West while playing as well as he did this season, that alone is an interesting concept.

Gilbert Arenas I think could be considered an All-Star player, but I do recognize that is very much debatable. I think he hasn't pushed his team hard enough to be considered a Super-Star but talent wise, he is Super-Star material.

Well, I've already stated my view, so there's not much need for me to go through it all again. But I would just say that I think the idea that Melo has already plateaued at age 23 and lacks even the potential capacity of becoming the "true superstar" you guys are thinking of is just excessively pessimistic, and somewhat in denial of how talented an athlete and great a basketball player he truly is.

He's shown marked improvement continually throughout his career, and that is without having a team properly built around him the entire time. If the Denver FO actually makes a decent move or two in the offseason (specifically getting a real point guard and getting at least one more guy who can shoot and/or score in the post and thereby become an assist target for Melo), on what would you base the assertion that Melo won't get much better? His real, ongoing improvement would suggest the contrary.


Oh, and as a side note... He's not going anywhere (http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_9339817). And the FO is right not to ship him out. It would be crazy for them to do so.

nomoretears
06-10-2008, 04:38 PM
Carmelo's not a franchise player by any means. He's been thrown into the leadership role on a team that doesn't have many high caliber players. He is a good player but he has to be a better defensive player if he wants to raise his value as an overall player.

Tom Stone
08-01-2008, 07:31 AM
I would agree with you.....good article.......But with that said did you watch the olympics...carmelo Anthony was the best player easy on that team....and those are all the best players in the world....If you ask anybody who watched those games....they would agree with me.....I know he still has to play better defence and mature a bit....but it's hard to say he's not a superstar when you play with the best and lead them......Your article mabey should be called "Carmello needs to grow up and play defence".

daleja424
08-01-2008, 11:18 AM
Melo is in the same range of stars like Pierce, Carter, Arenas, etc.

Are those guys superstars?

These guys below for sure are superstars.

Duncan
CP3
Kobe
Garnett
Lebron
Amare
Dwight


Anyone else missing?

Wade?!?!

Shieldsz
08-01-2008, 11:56 AM
Melo is a lazy punk. I have no respect for him, whatsoever.

Shieldsz
08-01-2008, 12:00 PM
Wade?!?!

I don't view Wade as a franchise player. His game has dropped from his injuries..

daleja424
08-01-2008, 06:11 PM
I don't view Wade as a franchise player. His game has dropped from his injuries..

haha... if you don't realize wade is a superstar and a franchise player then you're delusional...

DenButsu
08-01-2008, 08:22 PM
Melo is a lazy punk. I have no respect for him, whatsoever.

I can guarantee you that your Sixers players respect him a helluva lot more than you do.

Melo's splits against Philly in 07-08:


Opponent G MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% STL OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
Philadelphia 2 36.5 9.5-18.0 52.778 1.5-2.0 .750 4.0-5.0 80.000 1.00 1.5 4.0 5.5 3.5 24.5

daleja424
08-01-2008, 08:25 PM
I can guarantee you that your Sixers players respect him a helluva lot more than you do.

Melo's splits against Philly in 07-08:


Opponent G MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% STL OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
Philadelphia 2 36.5 9.5-18.0 52.778 1.5-2.0 .750 4.0-5.0 80.000 1.00 1.5 4.0 5.5 3.5 24.5

I love the way you do business DenButsu! You answer with stats... not disses! props!

DenButsu
08-01-2008, 08:47 PM
When it comes to Melo - and I say this again and again and again (because people always regurgitate the same old cliches) - he's not above criticism, and I criticize him myself in the areas which he deserves it.

The DUI? Deserved.

The bad defense? Deserved.

The punch? Somewhat deserved, but blown WAY out of proportion in my opinion (since sticking up for teammates is a pretty natural reaction, albeit he went overboard).

Trouble with finishing near the basket? Deserved.


But offhanded comments like "Melo is lazy" or "Melo is a punk" or "Melo is a thug" are meaningless caricatures based on an inaccurate 2-dimensional stereotype which is built on turning a blind eye to many other aspects of his game and personality which suggest otherwise.

Or in other words, it's just hatin'.

Playoff Magic
08-07-2008, 07:31 PM
Melo is the most over-rated player in the ASSOCIATION!

DenButsu
08-07-2008, 07:59 PM
Melo is the most over-rated player in the ASSOCIATION!

Why do you think so? Back it up.

cambovenzi
08-07-2008, 11:33 PM
Melo is the most over-rated player in the ASSOCIATION!

what about gilbert, or lebron "i cant shoot" jordan.

Fury
08-08-2008, 01:34 AM
ur missing alot of guys Jason kidd Steve Nash Dwayne Wade Carmelo is a B list player maybe if he showed some heart played defense and realized he isnt the only player for the nuggets that can score and pass the damn ball..

ryanandthecity
08-09-2008, 03:00 PM
guy who said that lebron was driving 110 mph, that was pretty bad, but do you forget that anthony was stopped for a dui i mean come on...

tadjock
08-12-2008, 04:44 AM
well yeah. shawn marion is way better. but he's old already

chisox311
08-14-2008, 04:14 AM
what about gilbert, or lebron "i cant shoot" jordan.
Gilbert is up there with Melo, but Lebron carried the Cavs to the finals pretty much single handedly so I'm gonna give credit where it is deserved.

Melo may be able to put the ball in the hoop but he's not a winner and he's not a leader. Given the cap room that he'll command, no team with him could realistically have a shot at winning the ship unless he made an attitude adjustment.

Fury
08-14-2008, 03:18 PM
Gilbert is up there with Melo, but Lebron carried the Cavs to the finals pretty much single handedly so I'm gonna give credit where it is deserved.

Melo may be able to put the ball in the hoop but he's not a winner and he's not a leader. Given the cap room that he'll command, no team with him could realistically have a shot at winning the ship unless he made an attitude adjustment.

and had his price tag lowered

BurnsinPhilly
08-14-2008, 04:31 PM
Melo kinda won a NCCA title by himself and yet you say he isnt a winner. it aint his fault that denver would rather be smoking the joint then playing their playoff game.

DenButsu
08-14-2008, 08:19 PM
unless he made an attitude adjustment.

Break it down for me: What's wrong with his attitude? Seriously. This has become a label that has stuck to him, so that everybody just assumes it's true now. But what exactly do you think is problematic about his attitude? Please be specific.

TheFuture6
08-15-2008, 05:45 AM
Break it down for me: What's wrong with his attitude? Seriously. This has become a label that has stuck to him, so that everybody just assumes it's true now. But what exactly do you think is problematic about his attitude? Please be specific.

He's almost always smiling. We can't have that.

DenButsu
08-15-2008, 10:18 AM
He's almost always smiling. We can't have that.

Yeah, no fun allowed. This is a game, damn it.

cahawk
08-23-2008, 04:50 AM
A big part of being a superstar is being in a Media hub like NYC or L.A..

Beno7500
09-07-2008, 08:21 PM
I don't think he is a superstar either.

Beno7500
09-07-2008, 08:21 PM
Also, what makes him an All Star? He hasn't gotten his team anywhere.

DenButsu
05-14-2009, 01:09 AM
SI posted this thread about one year ago, and it seemed that most of the posters in it were basically in general agreement with his take on Melo at that time.

So I wanted to bump it just to take the temperature again on the "Is Melo a superstar?" question. Has his performance over the past year and especially in the current postseason changed any minds around here? Here are his postseason stats from basketball-reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html) (note these include only the first 9 games and not the final game vs. Dallas):

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4725/after9gamesmelo2009post.png


The one area of his game that might be considered a "disappointment" would be his offensive rebounding, although I chalk this up mostly to his deferring to a healthy Nene, the Birdman, and a healthier K-Mart for much of these duties (and in previous years Camby was always much more about defensive than offensive rebounding anyhow).

Aside from that, his 3-pt percentage is just smokin', as is his eFG%, his assists are unprecedentedly high, which is making his presence on the court all the more dangerous as he continues drawing doubles, and on top of that his turnover rate is WAY down, meaning he's playing with a much higher degree of efficiency and much better ball handling. His shot selection has been great, and his decision making in general (with the glaring exception of the swing at Wright in game 4 after Wright held onto his arm for too long) has been much better than ever. And above all his defensive intensity (which is hard to quantify but is also reflected in the stat sheet) and effectiveness is definitely at the best level of his career. And his PER is 26.24.

So while he's far and away playing at his own personal career best, that doesn't automatically mean he makes the "superstar" cut when you stack him up against the other star players in the league, and that's the question I'd like to raise here by bumping this thread.

Do you think he's there now?

kimchi'sworld
05-14-2009, 01:18 AM
I see him turning into a superstar right now. His defense has improved. He's shooting very efficiently and he can get his shots and scores when its needed the most. He's obviously going to be the biggest factor in terms of scoring and taking the last second shot for the Western Conference Finals showdown if they play la.

superkegger
05-14-2009, 01:18 AM
I think he's been dynamite and I'd put him on superstar status. :shrug:

Jack Kent Cooke
05-14-2009, 01:21 AM
I think he's been dynamite and I'd put him on superstar status. :shrug:

Agreed. He is arguably the most clutch player in the NBA.

Vinny642
05-14-2009, 01:22 AM
OMG U dug this up lol. Fools from last year saying he is overrated LOL. IMO he is a superstar.

DenButsu
05-14-2009, 01:25 AM
OMG U dug this up lol. Fools from last year saying he is overrated LOL. IMO he is a superstar.

Yeah, my initial reaction when SI posted this was like grrrr :mad: but then again at this time last year there was a lot more of a legit point to be made that Melo was falling short of the threshold. But it kind of stuck in my craw and I never forgot it. I'm just happy now that Melo seems to be finally truly achieving at or near the level we Melo fans have been waiting for him to reach for a while now.

MTone8788
05-14-2009, 01:26 AM
To me, this whole argument/thread/artical is irrelevant right now. Honestly, why is anyone concerned about Melo's stardom? All that matters is that the team he is on is now in the Western conference finals, and I think that is all he is concerned about himself.

Lakergirl24
05-14-2009, 01:27 AM
I think he'll be a consistent all-star, but not a superstar. At leats not yet. He hasnt proven that he can be THE guy and carry his team on his back. Melo is a better player this year because of billups. Billups is the leader of that team and in essence that makes the nuggz better because melo does not have to be the leader and carry them (ala pau gasol).

kimchi'sworld
05-14-2009, 01:38 AM
I think he'll be a consistent all-star, but not a superstar. At leats not yet. He hasnt proven that he can be THE guy and carry his team on his back. Melo is a better player this year because of billups. Billups is the leader of that team and in essence that makes the nuggz better because melo does not have to be the leader and carry them (ala pau gasol).

It's true Melo is a better player this year because of Billups but its mutual and beneficial for Billups to have a scorer like Melo just like it would be for KG having Pierce and Allen, and Duncan having Parker and Ginobili.

I can see what you're saying a little bit but won't agree with you that he's not going to be a superstar and he's not the guy, because right now he's "the guy" he's the best and most consistent player and the most responsible carrying the team on his back.

He's still has a lot of room for improvement but his upside for it is very good. He's only going to get better the farther they get in the play-offs. If they play the lakers his role is going to be the most crucial and he's going to have to play better then everyone.

Lakergirl24
05-14-2009, 01:44 AM
It's true Melo is a better player this year because of Billups but its mutual and beneficial for Billups to have a scorer like Melo just like it would be for KG having Pierce and Allen, and Duncan having Parker and Ginobili.

I can see what you're saying a little bit but won't agree with you that he's not going to be a superstar and he's not the guy, because right now he's "the guy" he's the best and most consistent player and the most responsible carrying the team on his back.

He's still has a lot of room for improvement but his upside for it is very good. He's only going to get better the farther they get in the play-offs. If they play the lakers his role is going to be the most crucial and he's going to have to play better then everyone.

You make a valid point. Melo and Billups compliment eachother. Right now, I just think billups is the leader of this team. I think Melo can become a superstar, but dont think he's there yet.

DenButsu
05-14-2009, 02:02 AM
You make a valid point. Melo and Billups compliment eachother. Right now, I just think billups is the leader of this team.

And Melo would agree with you. He said so after the game, in fact. :cool:

superkegger
05-14-2009, 02:07 AM
You don't have to be the leader of the team to be a superstar.

Chronz
05-14-2009, 02:09 AM
Getting closer, sucks for Melo fans that the day Melo is showing his stuff Bron takes it up yet another level himself. 41.6PER 139Offensive Rating, just ridiculous.

The bar for superstar status keeps rising with this guy. Yes I found a way to put down Melo

Jahari Kavi
05-14-2009, 02:11 AM
first I'd like to give props to Chronz for that great sig....


I used to say the same thing about Melo up until..........this years postseason......it appears that he is finally getting "it" and because of that denver will probably come out of the west.

DenButsu
05-14-2009, 02:22 AM
Getting closer, sucks for Melo fans that the day Melo is showing his stuff Bron takes it up yet another level himself. 41.6PER 139Offensive Rating, just ridiculous.

The bar for superstar status keeps rising with this guy. Yes I found a way to put down Melo

:laugh2: They always do.

But really, if LeBron is the measuring stick of "superstardom", then really there's only one in the league, right?

I'm not too worried about that.

_KB24_
05-14-2009, 02:27 AM
Melo's a good kid and needs a better mentor. You saw what he did in Syracuse under a coach like Jim Boeheim--he won a national championship. The guy needs to be brought back down to earth a bit and needs a coach who is going to whip him into shape. George Karl is not that guy and Denver isn't going to win unless they get some defensive help.

Carmelo obviously needs to improve in that aspect, but someone needs to light a fire under him, because he is an incredible talent, and is a guy you build a team around.
Consider the fact that had those Nuggets been in the East, we might not even be having this conversation.

Exactly. Melo has played really well and his defense does not need to be spectacular for them to win. They already have Nene, Billups, Anderson, Smith, Jones, and Martin

Punkindrublic03
05-14-2009, 02:58 AM
George Karl is magic

214boyz
05-14-2009, 03:08 AM
D-wade over melo any day!
A star but not a franchise player

ElMarroAfamado
05-14-2009, 03:30 AM
the thing that doesnt make him a "superstar" are the stuff that i have seen instances of this post season.....
his impending implosion....during games...
its just a matter of time before he snaps and acts like if he is 10 during a game....
getting ejected .....the whole nine yards...
i hope im wrong but if this happens again it will just feed the critics

BkOriginalOne
05-14-2009, 04:42 AM
Carmelo has the best offesive move set in the NBA. He has the best opportunity to get off a shot that anybody in the NBA including Kobe and Lebron, that has to make him a star.
He has improved his "player involvment" from what I have seen in this year's playoff run. He has also played Great D on Dirk from what I have seen in some stretches (although he fouls sometimes).

The fact is, that although Melo is 3rd team NBA right now... When the nuggets lose in the WCF or the NBA finals... melo will come back hungry and the the nuggets will be easy prime contedners for the title next year (assuming they resign birdman and AC). Melo is a superstar and will continue to gain fame as such!

ManRam
05-14-2009, 10:32 AM
So if Carmelo isn't a super star because he "doesn't play defense" and "all he can do is score and rebound", why is Dwight a super star if all he can do is play defense and dunk? Dwight doesn't get his teammates involved. Dwight has no offensive moves. Dwight is a TO machine. Dwight is far from clutch. Dwight can't shoot free throws.

Carmelo is a superstar. He's arguably one of the 5 most explosive scorers in the league. If he was the unquestionable leader of the Nuggets (which he's not, and that's not a bad thing), he would be the best scorer in the NBA. He is a great rebounder. He's top 10 amongst all forwards in assists and steals. He can shoot it from anywhere on the court. He's clutch. He's everything but maybe not a shut-down defender. But how many shut-down defenders are there out there? Very few. He's bought into the defensive scheme. He is playing defense..

RaidLakeDodgers
05-14-2009, 10:37 AM
All I have to say is the kid is a beast ,& thats coming from a laker fan.
I couldnt stand him because of his purse swinging incident with the knicks, & hated him even more when he choked sasha, but the kid has been on good behavior lately & has been lighting it up.He scores almost @ will.

RaidLakeDodgers
05-14-2009, 10:38 AM
d-wade over melo any day!
A star but not a franchise player
lmao

pebloemer
05-14-2009, 10:48 AM
So if Carmelo isn't a super star because he "doesn't play defense" and "all he can do is score and rebound", why is Dwight a super star if all he can do is play defense and dunk? Dwight doesn't get his teammates involved. Dwight has no offensive moves. Dwight is a TO machine. Dwight is far from clutch. Dwight can't shoot free throws.

Carmelo is a superstar. He's arguably one of the 5 most explosive scorers in the league. If he was the unquestionable leader of the Nuggets (which he's not, and that's not a bad thing), he would be the best scorer in the NBA. He is a great rebounder. He's top 10 amongst all forwards in assists and steals. He can shoot it from anywhere on the court. He's clutch. He's everything but maybe not a shut-down defender. But how many shut-down defenders are there out there? Very few. He's bought into the defensive scheme. He is playing defense..

I agree. I really have not liked Melo since he was drafted, but this years he has made improvements on everything critiqued in the initial post. He has been fantastic in many areas and will improve. I think it is ridiculous to suggest he will never be a superstar - he is pretty close to being there already and showing improve and interest in the things critiqued about him.

bringbackfredex
05-14-2009, 10:55 AM
Carmelo can't be called a superstar, because I don't think that he's even the best player on his team anymore. He's an allstar, but he does have a lot of holes in his game. Billups may not be the bigger name, but hes a much better all around player.

ManRam
05-14-2009, 11:02 AM
Carmelo can't be called a superstar, because I don't think that he's even the best player on his team anymore. He's an allstar, but he does have a lot of holes in his game. Billups may not be the bigger name, but hes a much better all around player.

So if Wade played on the Cavs he wouldn't be a superstar because he wouldn't be the best player on his team??? Flawed argument.

IBleedPurple
05-14-2009, 11:09 AM
He's Paul Pierce with more hops, a less consistent jumper, less post moves, and worse defense. He still has plenty of time to get better, but he's pretty overrated right now.

I think it is safe to say that Carmelo is playing much better than Pierce right now. And Melo may have less hops, but he is taller so he still gets higher than Pierce. As for his jumper and post moves, I don't think Pierce is ahead of him in either category. Overrated is holding him to Kobe/Lebron standards. Looking at the NBA in general, he is a very gifted player.


ur missing alot of guys Jason kidd Steve Nash Dwayne Wade Carmelo is a B list player maybe if he showed some heart played defense and realized he isnt the only player for the nuggets that can score and pass the damn ball..

Carmelo is definitely better than Kidd right now, and Nash seems to be trailing off. While I'm not ready to say that Melo is better than Wade, Melo definitely has had a better playoffs.


well yeah. shawn marion is way better. but he's old already

If you ask all of the GM's in the NBA if they could have Melo or Marion, IMO less than 5 would take Marion.


Carmelo can't be called a superstar, because I don't think that he's even the best player on his team anymore. He's an allstar, but he does have a lot of holes in his game. Billups may not be the bigger name, but hes a much better all around player.

You can only have one superstar per team? So when the Heat won the Championship, or the Lakers in the Kobe/Shaq days.....by your logic, either Kobe, Shaq, or Wade weren't/aren't superstars. Not to mention KG/Pierce/Allen. I don't think that argument holds water.

broncsnugzbrave
05-14-2009, 11:18 AM
Clutch / can drive or shoot / has vastly improving defense


I honestly think he is the best basketball player on the team. Now that he doesn't have to be the sole leader he just plays ball and gets others involved. He has shown the ability lately to take over 4th quarters and isn't that what a superstar does is do what he needs to to win?

DenButsu
05-14-2009, 11:24 AM
I think it is safe to say that Carmelo is playing much better than Pierce right now. And Melo may have less hops, but he is taller so he still gets higher than Pierce. As for his jumper and post moves, I don't think Pierce is ahead of him in either category. Overrated is holding him to Kobe/Lebron standards. Looking at the NBA in general, he is a very gifted player.



Carmelo is definitely better than Kidd right now, and Nash seems to be trailing off. While I'm not ready to say that Melo is better than Wade, Melo definitely has had a better playoffs.



If you ask all of the GM's in the NBA if they could have Melo or Marion, IMO less than 5 would take Marion.



You can only have one superstar per team? So when the Heat won the Championship, or the Lakers in the Kobe/Shaq days.....by your logic, either Kobe, Shaq, or Wade weren't/aren't superstars. I don't think that argument holds water.

In fairness, while I agree with nearly all of what you posted, a lot of it is in response to fairly old posts (from like a year ago or so).

That is my fault. I bumped this thread. But just so it's clear, someone talking about Marion a year ago made a lot more sense than someone talking about Marion now. Likewise, I think the year that has passed has driven the questionability of that point home, which is part of the reason why I wanted to bump this thread, because I think Melo's play this season and particularly this postseason gives cause for some recalibration in terms of where he's esteemed on the "who's the best?" list.

DenButsu
05-14-2009, 11:26 AM
hated him even more when he choked sasha

Aw, come on, man, who doesn't want to choke Sasha sometimes (even Lakers fans)?



















I kid, of course. (At least partially :p )

Randy West
05-14-2009, 11:30 AM
The last part of this season and the playoffs have shown me something in Melo.

I am starting to think he is superstar status worthy. I had said early in the thread he couldn't take the ball and will his team to win. These playoffs something has changed, he has wanted the ball and to take the shot.....he has stepped up his game imo.

what54!?
05-14-2009, 11:35 AM
He's getting close to being one. He's become a pretty underated defender IMO and this year he's getting his teamates more involved. He's also scoring for his team in crunch time, when superstars are supposed to. He's not on the kobe, lebron, wade, etc. level yet, but he's getting close.

IBleedPurple
05-14-2009, 11:40 AM
In fairness, while I agree with nearly all of what you posted, a lot of it is in response to fairly old posts (from like a year ago or so).

That is my fault. I bumped this thread. But just so it's clear, someone talking about Marion a year ago made a lot more sense than someone talking about Marion now. Likewise, I think the year that has passed has driven the questionability of that point home, which is part of the reason why I wanted to bump this thread, because I think Melo's play this season and particularly this postseason gives cause for some recalibration in terms of where he's esteemed on the "who's the best?" list.

:hide:
My bad.

But I do agree that Melo will definitely climb the list of best players. He has been great.

ManRam
05-14-2009, 11:45 AM
If Melo didn't get injured in 2006-2007, he would have been a top 3-5 MVP vote getter. He scored 29 points a game, grabbed 7 boards, 4 assists and shot 48% from the field. That was his breakout year. If he didn't get hurt, got the recognition he was on track to get (finished only 3rd team all-nba), there would be a lot less debate. People forget how great he was/is, and luckily these playoffs are bringing out the best in him. He is a stud. He is a superstar. He is arguably the best scorer in the NBA.

DenButsu
05-14-2009, 12:00 PM
:hide:
My bad.

But I do agree that Melo will definitely climb the list of best players. He has been great.

No, it's not your bad at all, like I said, it's my bad for bumping an old thread. It's not your fault you thought those were recent posts, it's mine. But I did want to point out in fairness to those older post posters that those things were said a year ago and not recently.

Unruly Fan
05-14-2009, 12:58 PM
He is arguably the best scorer in the NBA.
Very very Bold lol

DenButsu
05-14-2009, 01:01 PM
Very very Bold lol

I said this before, but there's a good argument to be made for it - but also good arguments to be made against it. It really comes down to how you define "best". If it's "most prolific" then no, obviously other players score more points than he does. If it's "best pure shooter", then he's not going to hold a candle to, say, Ray Allen and dudes like that. But if it's "most complete" or "most versatile", then I think Melo is safely in and near the top of the conversation.

Unruly Fan
05-14-2009, 01:25 PM
I said this before, but there's a good argument to be made for it - but also good arguments to be made against it. It really comes down to how you define "best". If it's "most prolific" then no, obviously other players score more points than he does. If it's "best pure shooter", then he's not going to hold a candle to, say, Ray Allen and dudes like that. But if it's "most complete" or "most versatile", then I think Melo is safely in and near the top of the conversation.
I definately agree with that. But when you throw the word "best" into the equation it complicates things. However he is undoubtly one of the top tier scorers in the game today.

For example, I had a HUGE laugh at the numerour, numerous commentators last year calling Kobe the "best player on the planet" only to see him lose in the finals sporting a rediculously low FG%. After that whopping I can see why Pierce self proclaimed that he was the in fact "the best". And with how high Kobe was held going into the playoffs, I cant blame him.

jimbobjarree
05-14-2009, 02:22 PM
woah...he's not 23 is he

edit: he's not 23, he's 24...25 in 15 days.

and IMO he's a great player, he's not a superstar though, and he doesnt have the ability to lead a team the way Kobe, Lebron and Wade can, the Nuggets needed Chauncey to do the leading for them.

superkegger
05-14-2009, 03:01 PM
Aw, come on, man, who doesn't want to choke Sasha sometimes (even Lakers fans)?



















I kid, of course. (At least partially :p )

I want to choke him thats for sure. Maybe if he were injured he wouldn't play, and then he'd stop throwing up brick after brick after brick after brick after brick after brick...I think you get the point.

what54!?
05-14-2009, 03:09 PM
I want to choke him thats for sure. Maybe if he were injured he wouldn't play, and then he'd stop throwing up brick after brick after brick after brick after brick after brick...I think you get the point.
I think its safe to say everyone wants to choke sasha : the man who's never committed a foul in his life ( and he's a flopper)

SwaggaIke
05-14-2009, 11:13 PM
woah...he's not 23 is he

edit: he's not 23, he's 24...25 in 15 days.

and IMO he's a great player, he's not a superstar though, and he doesnt have the ability to lead a team the way Kobe, Lebron and Wade can, the Nuggets needed Chauncey to do the leading for them.

Most players don't become great leaders on their own. Look at the players you named, they all played w/ some good veterans at a young age.

Wade: Shaq, Zo, Eddie Jones, Gary Payton....coached by Pat Riley.
Kobe: Shaq, Ron Harper, Glenn Rice...coached by PJ.
LeBron: He hasn't had a lot of GREAT veteran presences around him but he's played on a lot of Olympic/World Championship teams w/ these same players.

I'm not saying no one becomes a leader on their own, but the game is to be taught. Melo got his first true veteran leader this year and now his game has taken off.

bostncelts34
05-14-2009, 11:15 PM
id say the pair of Melo and Pierce are a couple of the most complete all around offensive players in the league IMO.