PDA

View Full Version : Lester or Buchholz?



knittingmill
04-14-2008, 11:29 PM
Who do we send to AAA when Colon comes up?

bosox1899
04-14-2008, 11:32 PM
well if you ve seen my other post its obvious, but in case you havent, its definitely lester, buchholz had 2 good starts and one of them was against the yankees where he almost outpitched wang.

-Lavigne43-
04-14-2008, 11:35 PM
More like obviously Buchholz. Sox don't want him to throw that many innings this year. He also needs to work on pitching out of the stretch. I would be absolutely shocked if Colon replaced anyone else, if he comes up.

Tragedy
04-14-2008, 11:40 PM
I think everyone will likely say Buchholz, and they say that to limit his innings. But I'd prefer to see Lester go down, unless something changes very quickly. He needs to go down to the minors and learn to control the zone a bit more. He shows glimpses of being a great pitcher in each game, usually for 3-4 innings. It's all about staying consistant, with Jon. If he can find the strike zone more and avoid those 1 or 2 Dice-K like innings, he'll be a strong pitcher.

Until then, I have no issues with him going to the minors for 3-6 starts.

-Lavigne43-
04-14-2008, 11:49 PM
I fail to see how pitching in the minor leagues will help Lester at all. He needs to learn how to throw against major league hitting, not minor league. I don't see sending him to the minors doing anything except wrecking the kids confidence. Buchholz on the other hand has huge problems when ever he has to pitch out of the stretch position. That is something he needs to work on in the minors. Not to mention, again, we don't want him throwing too many innings this year. Having him in the minors will limit that.

boston rocks
04-15-2008, 12:01 AM
lester needs to get his stuff back, that will help when hes in the minors. as you saw today, he needs to reagain some sort of control if he is gonna be any type of ML pitcher for the sox.

-Lavigne43-
04-15-2008, 12:11 AM
lester needs to get his stuff back, that will help when hes in the minors. as you saw today, he needs to reagain some sort of control if he is gonna be any type of ML pitcher for the sox.

You can say the same exact thing for Dice-K. The control problems that is. Guess who has more walks this year?

Lester has been pretty unlucky this year too, in terms of runners scoring when they get on. I prefer him right now over Wakefield who has a higher WHIP but has just gotten out of jams. If this is continuing a month from now Lester might benefit from going to AAA but I think he will get better as the season goes on.

boston rocks
04-15-2008, 12:18 AM
You can say the same exact thing for Dice-K. The control problems that is. Guess who has more walks this year?

yea, but ones coming of a battle with cancer, the other is coming from japan......the bottom line is, lester or clay wont get any better from being in AAA another year, i wouldnt be surprised to see this rotation:

Beckett
Dice K
Colon
Clay
Lester

Wake
paps
oki
MDC
timlin

it makes the pen a little better and gets the 2 young pitchers their time to face ML hitters.

-Lavigne43-
04-15-2008, 12:23 AM
I think Clay would benefit. Like I said a bunch of times, he seems to have trouble when he is throwing out of the stretch.

Tragedy
04-15-2008, 01:38 AM
Lester entered the game with 10 walks in 16 innings of work. For the season, he has now issued 16 free passes while striking out just 10 over 20 1/3 innings.
Source: Rotoworld.com

This is why I wouldn't mind seeing Lester down in the minors for a few weeks. He needs to get the kinks out of his head and stop walking batters, and he needs to do it soon. I'm not so confident he's going to figure it out at the major league level.

knittingmill
04-15-2008, 08:03 AM
Wake's not going to the pen and Dice-k ain't goin' to triple A. IF Colon comes up Lester's going down or traded with ellsbury for santana. coco's back!:smoking:

ZHawk1123
04-15-2008, 08:34 AM
I still fail to see the greatness in Lester that everyone else sees... And I wish it would be him that goes down...

But... Buchholz will go down... No doubt about it...

RedSoxtober
04-15-2008, 08:44 AM
I'm a little torn about Lester. I was stunned when one of the ESPN announcers (Orel maybe?) made a couple of decent points about him. The most obvious was that he rarely threw a fastball in the lower half of the strike zone. At 92 he's just not going to blow a high fastball by most MLB batters. Second, he completely abandoned his curve the second time through the order. He does not have enough confidence in his off speed stuff to use it when the hitters start making contact the second and third time through the order. The latter seems to explain pretty well why we see him, as Tragedy said, "show glimpses for 3-4 innings." In later innings he's been regressing to fastball-only or fastball with some cutters mixed in and he's getting hit a lot. Those two things I think he could benefit from some concentrated work in the minors.

Buchholz, though, I think can benefit more.

lil'papi
04-15-2008, 08:51 AM
I fail to see how pitching in the minor leagues will help Lester at all. He needs to learn how to throw against major league hitting, not minor league. I don't see sending him to the minors doing anything except wrecking the kids confidence. Buchholz on the other hand has huge problems when ever he has to pitch out of the stretch position. That is something he needs to work on in the minors. Not to mention, again, we don't want him throwing too many innings this year. Having him in the minors will limit that.

What he said ^^ ;)

lil'papi
04-15-2008, 09:04 AM
Lester needs a full season then after the season we'll know more. He needs a solid 200 innings. Remember same as hitting these guys need innings to evaluate them.

Next outing he throws 7 soild innings people back off.

We've never seen Lester throw a full season that will let us see the good with the bad. Lefties sometimes click and boom they are really good. He has the makeup, the size , the stuff, the command is a major issue.

Now if you say Lester is throwing his curve in the first few innings then abandoning it , that my friend lies on TEK's shoulders!
He needs to call them more , so for me, it doesn't wash. (Sorry Orel)

He just needs to use the edges of the plate on all his pitches. He has the exact same problem Dice K has 1-1 counts go to 2-1 instead of 1-2. Pound the zone rely on the defense.
KISS. Same with DiceK he gets too fine, trying to nibble when he should be taking bites. No matter who you face go after them, hard.

I don't see greatness in Lester, I see a solid number three eventually. Hopefully sooner....

Buchholz......AAA. Lester deserves the innings and can handle them arm wise, Buchy needs to be limited. Easy choice...

bosox1899
04-15-2008, 09:33 AM
You can say the same exact thing for Dice-K. The control problems that is. Guess who has more walks this year?

Lester has been pretty unlucky this year too, in terms of runners scoring when they get on. I prefer him right now over Wakefield who has a higher WHIP but has just gotten out of jams. If this is continuing a month from now Lester might benefit from going to AAA but I think he will get better as the season goes on.

yea but the difference is Dice K is 3-0 with a 2.70 era, lester on the other hand cant pitch himself out of tough situations as you saw last night, after a couple of walks he gives up hit after hit. Unfortunately, Buchholz will prob go down to AAA if Colon does take someones place, but Buchholtz has been pitching much better then Lester and doesn't deserve to.

bosox1899
04-15-2008, 09:39 AM
Lester needs a full season then after the season we'll know more. He needs a solid 200 innings. Remember same as hitting these guys need innings to evaluate them.

Next outing he throws 7 soild innings people back off.

We've never seen Lester throw a full season that will let us see the good with the bad. Lefties sometimes click and boom they are really good. He has the makeup, the size , the stuff, the command is a major issue.

Now if you say Lester is throwing his curve in the first few innings then abandoning it , that my friend lies on TEK's shoulders!
He needs to call them more , so for me, it doesn't wash. (Sorry Orel)

He just needs to use the edges of the plate on all his pitches. He has the exact same problem Dice K has 1-1 counts go to 2-1 instead of 1-2. Pound the zone rely on the defense.
KISS. Same with DiceK he gets too fine, trying to nibble when he should be taking bites. No matter who you face go after them, hard.

I don't see greatness in Lester, I see a solid number three eventually. Hopefully sooner....

Buchholz......AAA. Lester deserves the innings and can handle them arm wise, Buchy needs to be limited. Easy choice...

Well I'll never back off Lester haha :D He is what he is, I dont see how hes gonna get much better the more he pitches? The batters have already seen him, they know hes not gonna throw strikes and he has a subpar fast ball that theyll just be waiting to crush. But hey if you guys want to wait a whole season in hopes that something might change be my guest, but I really really doubt hes gonna get much better. I hope he proves me wrong though. Also what makes Lester more likely to handle the innings better than Buchholz? I'm pretty sure Buchholz has been throwing for most of his life, hes not just gonna become weak and not be able to throw 180-200 innings. Obviously the Red Sox dont think so and are strict on his innings but sending him down to AAA for that reason is ridiculous, if you must let him miss a start or two, we have Tavarez as much as i dont like him to make a couple of starts.


I still fail to see the greatness in Lester that everyone else sees... And I wish it would be him that goes down...

But... Buchholz will go down... No doubt about it...

I agree, some think he ll just change all of a sudden and start throwing strikes. How? What is he gonna do change his stance? Change his arm angle? Some pitchers take a while to find their groove but most you can tell what type of pitcher they are from the first 20 starts. How long do we need to wait for Lester? Apparently another full season according to most of these people.

a4anthony
04-15-2008, 11:24 AM
we should try to see how wake does in the pen u could never have to much debth in the pen

GrkGawdofWalkz
04-15-2008, 12:09 PM
Buchholz to me would be the guy, Lester looks good in spare amounts, but is touchy. Im not sure, but my gut reaction is Buchholz.

smokey2444
04-15-2008, 12:12 PM
Why should Wake go to the pen? He will get us 15-17 wins.

Baustin621
04-15-2008, 12:57 PM
Wake's not going to the pen and Dice-k ain't goin' to triple A. IF Colon comes up Lester's going down or traded with ellsbury for santana. coco's back!:smoking:

Where have you been? The Santana deal is done and over with. The Mets signed him to a long term deal. They are excited about him and are not going to give him up without even pitching a year. Especially now that Pedro's health is in question.

TheShowzOver
04-15-2008, 01:09 PM
Where have you been? The Santana deal is done and over with. The Mets signed him to a long term deal. They are excited about him and are not going to give him up without even pitching a year. Especially now that Pedro's health is in question.

^Wow

Anyways i'd like to see Wakefield go to the pen he will give us depth and it will allow Lester and Buchholz to develope with some more major league starts

smokey2444
04-15-2008, 02:06 PM
I think putting Wake in the pen will actually hurt the Sox. Leave him in the rotation and put either Lester or Buchholz in AAA.

I think both pitcher can gain alot of experience and confidence without hurting themselves mentally.

Tragedy
04-15-2008, 02:57 PM
I'm seeing people saying Wakefield to the pen, and that's a big no-no. What are they going to do, bring in Kevin Cash in the 6th or 7th inning everytime Wakefield comes out to pitch?

He's fine doing what he does. He's going to go through some very hot streaks, and then he'll hit a rough patch. He's going to finish with 13-16 wins with an ERA of around 4.50. He's the model of consistancy from the number 4 spot in the rotation.

vince wilfort
04-15-2008, 03:19 PM
^Wow

Anyways i'd like to see Wakefield go to the pen he will give us depth and it will allow Lester and Buchholz to develope with some more major league starts

The knuckleball is too inconsistent to have Wakefield in the bullpen.

And in response to this topic, why move up Colon? He's on a minor league contract. Just keep him down there until there's an injury.

TheShowzOver
04-15-2008, 03:22 PM
The knuckleball is too inconsistent to have Wakefield in the bullpen.

And in response to this topic, why move up Colon? He's on a minor league contract. Just keep him down there until there's an injury.

So it's better to have Wake as a starter and have him blow games from the get go because of an inconsistent knuckle ball?

RedSoxRok34
04-15-2008, 03:44 PM
id send buchholz down, because of the innings issue. if it was purely performance, id say lester, but there's other factors. the team has committed to him at the mlb level, so they'll stick out the rough spots. remember pedy last year? also the innings issue is pretty big. keep buchy to a number low enough that he'll be available in october.

lester needs to work on controlling the zone. he always starts out well, then loses it. he needs to remain consistent and get his secondary pitches over. also, has anyone noticed his curve has been pretty much absent this year? IMO, he needs that pitch

however, i dont think colon will be a round for a while, so let's not worry too much yet

RedSoxtober
04-15-2008, 03:57 PM
The knuckleball is too inconsistent to have Wakefield in the bullpen.

And in response to this topic, why move up Colon? He's on a minor league contract. Just keep him down there until there's an injury.

1. He's on a minor league contract with an opt-out on May 1 if he's not in MLB.
2. He was pounding the zone pretty hard in ST and his first start or two in AAA.
3. He was more effective than either Lester or Buchholz in ST.
4. He's got more MLB experience than 60% of the rotation.
...

papipapsmanny
04-15-2008, 04:03 PM
how about they just let colon go

stop hyping him up hes not good anymore

some crappy team would have signed him a lot sooner if he had anything left

vince wilfort
04-15-2008, 04:19 PM
So it's better to have Wake as a starter and have him blow games from the get go because of an inconsistent knuckle ball?

No. You'll notice with Wake that he could have a start where the gives up a few runs early or he retires 10 in a row. Many times he does both. I just think there are players better suited for the role like maybe even Hansack or someone random like that. There are moments in his starts when the knuckleball is off. It's not a consistent pitch. Pitchers become knuckleball pitchers as a last resort and Wakefield just got lucky. If the knuckleball isn't perfect, he could be blowing leads. But when it's on, it's amazing.

bosox3431
04-15-2008, 05:45 PM
how about they just let colon go

stop hyping him up hes not good anymore

some crappy team would have signed him a lot sooner if he had anything left

Yea how about not.

Once Lester has a good outing and Buchholz has a ****ty one, how the tides will turn. People will kiss Lester's *** and want to trade Clay, people arent happy with nothing.

bosox1899
04-15-2008, 06:43 PM
Yea how about not.

Once Lester has a good outing and Buchholz has a ****ty one, how the tides will turn. People will kiss Lester's *** and want to trade Clay, people arent happy with nothing.

well I wont be one of those people, the only way lesters gonna make me like him is if he puts together at least 6 or more quality starts back to back and shows a sign of consistency. I just cant wait til the end of the season and see how Lester's stats look, then I may have a better case

Tragedy
04-15-2008, 06:47 PM
So it's better to have Wake as a starter and have him blow games from the get go because of an inconsistent knuckle ball?
Huh? Like already mentioned, Wakefield is a perfect number 4 starter. Unfortunately, you can not have 5 aces these days, so you have to understand what each number in the rotation is capable of doing. Wakefield is a quality number 4 starter. He'll give you innings (Anywhere from 180-200), he'll give you wins (Anywhere from 12-16, and yes, that has something to do with the offense too), and he'll give you a solid ERA (Anywhere from 4.40-4.80).

Those numbers, from a NUMBER FOUR starter, are not terrible one bit.

ccspence8
04-15-2008, 06:54 PM
Never liked Lester..he's so overhyped. He'll be lucky to be a #3 starter one day. They won't send Lester down and they won't take out Wakefield so Buchholz will get the cold shoulder.

lil'papi
04-16-2008, 08:07 AM
Well I'll never back off Lester haha :D He is what he is, I dont see how hes gonna get much better the more he pitches? The batters have already seen him, they know hes not gonna throw strikes and he has a subpar fast ball that theyll just be waiting to crush. But hey if you guys want to wait a whole season in hopes that something might change be my guest, but I really really doubt hes gonna get much better. I hope he proves me wrong though. Also what makes Lester more likely to handle the innings better than Buchholz? I'm pretty sure Buchholz has been throwing for most of his life, hes not just gonna become weak and not be able to throw 180-200 innings. Obviously the Red Sox dont think so and are strict on his innings but sending him down to AAA for that reason is ridiculous, if you must let him miss a start or two, we have Tavarez as much as i dont like him to make a couple of starts.



I agree, some think he ll just change all of a sudden and start throwing strikes. How? What is he gonna do change his stance? Change his arm angle? Some pitchers take a while to find their groove but most you can tell what type of pitcher they are from the first 20 starts. How long do we need to wait for Lester? Apparently another full season according to most of these people.

HUH?
He is BIGGER and STRONGER than Buchholz by a country mile. Buchholz was at API to gain some weight and get stronger.
Buchholz is younger! Will Buchholz improve? Not according to your dumbed down theory. So neither Lester nor Buchholz will ever improve.
Might as well trade them both!

This makes ABSOLUTELY no sense whatsoever. Did Maddox improve over his first year, how about Schilling did he ever improve, ok how about PEDRO, Beckett, Tom Glavine so we might as well move Dice K too.

Complete nonsense. He has thrown about 23 games at the ML level maybe a few other appearances. To say he won't get better is like saying when you first got your driving license you never improved. :confused: He has a grand total of 164 innings pitched over a three year span.

Maybe you didn't after that post?

Lester has the potential , he has a pitchers frame and we need to thoroughly explore his ability before saying silly things. He is also a lefty, like Pettitte , which also took time for him to develope.
We NEED a lefty in the rotation. Were you singing his demise last year against Cleveland? :rolleyes:

RedSoxtober
04-16-2008, 08:22 AM
So it's better to have Wake as a starter and have him blow games from the get go because of an inconsistent knuckle ball?

Why don't people ever check stats before they make statements like this?

Let's see...
2008: 3 quality starts in 3 starts
2007: 50% quality starts (several more off by one run or less than 1IP)
2006: 52% quality starts
2005: 50% quality starts (led team)

An unpredictable pitch is not always an uncontrollable pitch. If it were Wakefield would never have the consistency he does as a starter. He's too much a gamble in the BP because the knuckler is such a 'feel' pitch and there's no time to mess around back there.

Tragedy
04-16-2008, 02:12 PM
2008: 3 quality starts in 3 starts
2007: 50% quality starts (several more off by one run or less than 1IP)
2006: 52% quality starts
2005: 50% quality starts (led team)
That's an excellent stat to see infront of me. This proves exactly what he is. He has his good games, he has his bad games, and he has some ugly games. As I stated earlier in this thread, there aren't many number 4's that I would want over Wakefield (ESPECIALLY when you factor in price).

boston rocks
04-16-2008, 02:33 PM
Thats what ive been saying for a while. when wakes Knuckle ball is on, its almost unhittable, but when its not moving good he will have a very bad start. but out of our 4 starter i will very gladly take 15 wins a 4.3 era and 150-200 innings. and at 4 million dollars it wont get much betteer than that.

lil'papi
04-18-2008, 07:15 AM
That's an excellent stat to see infront of me. This proves exactly what he is. He has his good games, he has his bad games, and he has some ugly games. As I stated earlier in this thread, there aren't many number 4's that I would want over Wakefield (ESPECIALLY when you factor in price).

Exactly, especially when he gets hot he then can dominate ANY lineup. He then throws the other teams rhythm off terribly.
One night your swinging a butterflies the next 97mph cutters. Wakefield is unique. One thing he needs to do though is get more than 5 innings out of him. We need a min of six from EVERY starter.
That or our BP will look like crap all year long.

Look at Pettitte's start the other night he gave up 9 hits -3 runs irrc he threw 100 pitches and thats through 7 complete innings.
PERFECT......he wasn't on, but he battled late into the game.
We need guys to start battling NOW!

bagwell368
04-18-2008, 08:43 AM
The real reason Lester is ahead of Buck:

This is Lester's last chance. If he pitches a 5.25 ERA this year and next year he is worthless in trade, and to the Sox. but if he can pull himself down to 4.15 land AND doesn't miss starts, he's useful for the Sox or in a trade if the Sox brass think he cannot keep it up.

If Buck's innings are kept down early, he can pitch later in Aug/Sep and the playoffs - if needed.

Lester IMO could bring a lot in a deal to the NL (bigger and saner strike zone), along with Coco (non power hitting CF's that track down everything are actually valued over there). How about a money MR, and a strong young catcher at the deadline, with a power hitting corner OF kid tossed in?

Between Colon, Buck, Masterson you find your #4 and #5 for the season. Come playoff they are much less important anyway - only good for blow-outs.

But the pen has another big arm, and we get a future starting catcher who can displace Cash now - yeah, I like that.

RedSoxtober
04-18-2008, 10:22 AM
I think only disgruntled fans think that this is Lester's last chance. Like Hansen, he's been hyped for so long he seems like he's been around forever and worn out his welcome but the Sox/FO has a very different opinion. I don't disagree that he could become trade bait (maybe more so if Richardson/Hagadone progress enough to be considered LHP options in the near future), I just very much doubt that he's on a short leash with anyone but you and cocosox.

lil'papi
04-19-2008, 09:54 AM
AGREED ^^

He is a baby pitching wise......trade bait ...isn't everyone? Anyone that has a replacement (cheaper) waiting in the wings is trade bait.

Are they grooming him to trade him ,no. The other pitchers on the staff, ie: Schilling, Beckett, Wake, Tavy, Timlin have all said Lester has the tools. Some believe him to be star someday.

They didn't trade him this winter, its likely they have some hopes for him. I do....he throws harder than Pettitte, he needs time. Big strong kid......no arm issues ever that I've ever heard of? Just control......if he harnesses it.. he could be a nice #3.

ThreeIfBaerga
04-19-2008, 01:03 PM
John Farrel is I believe one of the best pitching coaches in the game. Give him a full season to work with Lester, I think we'll see some improvement. Over the offseason Farrel said he thinks Lester would win 18 games this year. I know he hasn't looked good, but all it would take is some improved fastball control and he's a decent starter. Then improved command of his other stuff and he's a stud lefty. Lester has tons of resources at his disposal with the Sox, Farrel and Tek.

I for one, however, don't buy into the fact that a team NEEDS a lefty starter. The Sox had 0 lefty starters in 04 and got about 100 innings combined from Lester and Gabbard. They're nice, but they're not a must have.

Raidaz4Life
04-19-2008, 01:13 PM
easily Buchholz

Tragedy
04-19-2008, 03:13 PM
I think only disgruntled fans think that this is Lester's last chance. Like Hansen, he's been hyped for so long he seems like he's been around forever and worn out his welcome but the Sox/FO has a very different opinion. I don't disagree that he could become trade bait (maybe more so if Richardson/Hagadone progress enough to be considered LHP options in the near future), I just very much doubt that he's on a short leash with anyone but you and cocosox.
That's completely true. We hear about these names for so long, so it's so easy to forgot that Lester = 24 years old, and Hansen = 24 years old. It seems like they'd be about 32 a piece after how long they've been hyped, but that's simply not the case.

Youth is on Lester's side. He has the POTENTIAL to be a good player, but right now, he's not fulfilling his potential to the max. We'll see if he can do that soon. Looking back, if we didn't have to give up Ellsbury, I think I would have pulled the trigger on a deal that centered around Lester/Masterson for Johan Santana. What's done is done, though.

bagwell368
04-19-2008, 06:59 PM
After Lester's 3rd start I said to someone if he stays healthy he's a HoF'er. So I have lots of reasons to like him and hope. But, the AL strike zone is against him, and if they do go 55 more starts the next two years with im, and he's a 5.38 ERA, they will get little for him, and moreover they can't use him because the Masterson's of the world will displace him.

So, they have to decide. I do not think the decision is coming this year. But the first few months of '09 is critical.

bosox1899
04-19-2008, 08:18 PM
:down:
HUH?
He is BIGGER and STRONGER than Buchholz by a country mile. Buchholz was at API to gain some weight and get stronger.
Buchholz is younger! Will Buchholz improve? Not according to your dumbed down theory. So neither Lester nor Buchholz will ever improve.
Might as well trade them both!

This makes ABSOLUTELY no sense whatsoever. Did Maddox improve over his first year, how about Schilling did he ever improve, ok how about PEDRO, Beckett, Tom Glavine so we might as well move Dice K too.

Complete nonsense. He has thrown about 23 games at the ML level maybe a few other appearances. To say he won't get better is like saying when you first got your driving license you never improved. :confused: He has a grand total of 164 innings pitched over a three year span.

Maybe you didn't after that post?

Lester has the potential , he has a pitchers frame and we need to thoroughly explore his ability before saying silly things. He is also a lefty, like Pettitte , which also took time for him to develope.
We NEED a lefty in the rotation. Were you singing his demise last year against Cleveland? :rolleyes:

All those pitchers you mentioned all started to pitched to their HOF credentials in about the same amount of innings as lester in which they had consistent starts, while pedro was in the low 2 and sometimes mid to high 1 era, schilling and maddux were around 3 to low 4 era, lester cant say the same and hes been in the ml off and on for 2 seasons. so your stupid theory that these pitchers need time to develop is ridiculous seeing that those pitchers you mentioned all pitched to their potential the same amount of innings in the ML. None of the pitchers mentioned had as bad of stats as lester when they had at least 100 innings. go look for yourself baseball-reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com)

as mentioned earlier why the hell do we NEED a lefty in the rotation? that logic doesnt make sense whatsoever, what is it gonna do? confuse the batters bc its from a different viewpoint? :down:

Also, i forget what he did in cleveland but if i was looking at the right stats where he pitched 3 innings 2 er then im not really impressed, those numbers could be wrong but either way i never had any confidence in lester when he was gonna be our starter this year.

lil'papi
04-20-2008, 07:22 AM
:down:

All those pitchers you mentioned all started to pitched to their HOF credentials in about the same amount of innings as lester in which they had consistent starts, while pedro was in the low 2 and sometimes mid to high 1 era, schilling and maddux were around 3 to low 4 era, lester cant say the same and hes been in the ml off and on for 2 seasons. so your stupid theory that these pitchers need time to develop is ridiculous seeing that those pitchers you mentioned all pitched to their potential the same amount of innings in the ML. None of the pitchers mentioned had as bad of stats as lester when they had at least 100 innings. go look for yourself baseball-reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com)

as mentioned earlier why the hell do we NEED a lefty in the rotation? that logic doesnt make sense whatsoever, what is it gonna do? confuse the batters bc its from a different viewpoint? :down:

Also, i forget what he did in cleveland but if i was looking at the right stats where he pitched 3 innings 2 er then im not really impressed, those numbers could be wrong but either way i never had any confidence in lester when he was gonna be our starter this year.

You might want to re-check your stats...

YES, lefties create a different issue. OK, lets use Jamie Moyer then......he has won more games in his 40's than his 20's. So he didn't improve either?

I can see you never played.

JON LESTER 12-4 4.70 era......

Curt Schilling after a 100+ innings was 4-11 with a almost 4.00 era. So you lose that one....

Maddox was 8-18........so you lose this one too. ERA in the 5 + range.

Pedro although not stellar started well, BUT improved as he got innings!

Pettitte 12-9 4.17........he got alot better after that!

Glavine 9-21 with a 5+ ERA!

Beckett 8-9 with a 4 ERA!

You might want to go look yourself. Then show me one guy that didn't improve dramatically over the next few years.

bosox1899
04-20-2008, 09:58 AM
first I did play baseball for over 10 years, second just because moyer was a good pitcher doesnt prove that teams NEED a lefty, we already won a WS without one as someone mentioned..

Pedro not steller?! Becketts not stellar but still better and pettite was about the same as beckett


Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP

Pedro Martinez

1992 20 LAD NL 0 1 2 1 0 0 1 0 8.0 6 2 2 0 1 8 0 0 31 0 0 2.25 3.47 154 0.875
1993 21 LAD NL 10 5 65 2 0 0 20 2 107.0 76 34 31 5 57 119 4 3 444 4 1 2.61 3.84 147 1.243 RoY-9
1994 22 MON NL 11 5 24 23 1 1 1 1 144.7 115 58 55 11 45 142 11 6 584 3 0 3.42 4.26 125 1.106
1995 23 MON NL 14 10 30 30 2 2 0 0 194.7 158 79 76 21 66 174 11 5 784 1 2 3.51 4.31 123 1.151

Josh Beckett
2001 21 FLA NL 2 2 4 4 0 0 0 0 24.0 14 9 4 3 11 24 1 1 99 0 0 1.50 4.23 282 1.042
2002 22 FLA NL 6 7 23 21 0 0 0 0 107.7 93 56 49 13 44 113 1 5 454 2 0 4.10 4.03 98 1.272
2003 23 FLA NL 9 8 24 23 0 0 1 0 142.0 132 54 48 9 56 152 2 6 601 4 1 3.04 4.20 138 1.324
Andy Pettite

1995 23 NYY AL 12 9 31 26 3 0 1 0 175.0 183 86 81 15 63 114 1 8 745 3 1 4.17 4.63 111 1.406 RoY-3
1996 24 NYY AL 21 8 35 34 2 0 1 0 221.0 229 105 95 23 72 162 3 6 929 2 1 3.87 5.00 129 1.362 MVP-14,CYA-2,AS
1997 25 NYY AL 18 7 35 35 4 1 0 0 240.3 233 86 77 7 65 166 3 7 986 0 0 2.88 4.48 155 1.240 CYA-5



Pedro won the ROY how is that not stellar? Well i win that one :rolleyes:
Beckett had a 4.1 era still better than the 4.7 with less walks and more strikeouts so i win that one too i guess
Pettite had a 4.17 era again better than Lester

point being is that most of those pitchers showed a slightest bit of command, so far lester has gotten worse by the innings, 4.7 now hes at a ~5.10, he hasnt shown any signs of pitching to his potential like many of those other pitchers, but lets give him a full season then ill have a better argument, my prediction would be around 190 innings, 4.90 era, 100+ BBs, 100 Ks, 7-10 (W/L)

vince wilfort
04-20-2008, 11:20 AM
I think only disgruntled fans think that this is Lester's last chance. Like Hansen, he's been hyped for so long he seems like he's been around forever and worn out his welcome but the Sox/FO has a very different opinion. I don't disagree that he could become trade bait (maybe more so if Richardson/Hagadone progress enough to be considered LHP options in the near future), I just very much doubt that he's on a short leash with anyone but you and cocosox.

I completely agree. If Lester has a couple good starts, they'll all be saying that they've stuck with him the whole time while everyone was down on him. Lester wouldn't benefit much from Pawtucket. His stuff has been great, but he's lacked endurance.

ThreeIfBaerga
04-20-2008, 11:37 AM
Lester just needs innings, period. Hits aside, I viewed last night's start as a step forward. For once, he did the one thing we've all been hounding him for: Pound the strike zone. He finally did, and I think for a stretch in about the 3rd-4th innings we saw what he can do when he's got command of all his stuff and has it working. We're all looking for him to suddenly snap out of it and start tossing zeros, but it's a process. It's going to take some time, and he may very well take a step back before he takes another step forward, but he's still only 24 and a year removed from chemotherapy. It is time we start seeing some production, but he missed a lot of development time.

dieseleric
04-20-2008, 11:56 AM
Pedro won the ROY how is that not stellar? Well i win that one :rolleyes:


Actually he was 9th in ROY voting

JPapelbon58
04-20-2008, 12:34 PM
bring down lester, he had one good start and that was last night, and Buchholz has been pitching very well lately, but whenever he pitches he gets no run support. BRING LESTER DOWN!

papipapsmanny
04-20-2008, 12:42 PM
buccholz's last start was worse than any of lester's starts thus far

u people are ridiculous just leave both of them alone

bosox1899
04-20-2008, 12:52 PM
Actually he was 9th in ROY voting

o ok i saw the ROY next to it wasnt completely sure what the 9 meant, but either way the fact that he was even considered meant he did very well

bosox1899
04-20-2008, 12:53 PM
buccholz's last start was worse than any of lester's starts thus far

u people are ridiculous just leave both of them alone

ur ridiculous for comparing one start to over 20

Raidaz4Life
04-20-2008, 01:42 PM
I think Lester is just more prepared to start at the Major League level right now

papipapsmanny
04-20-2008, 01:47 PM
ur ridiculous for comparing one start to over 20

thus far this season u idiot

I guess u would have kicked santana off your team as well

bosox1899
04-20-2008, 02:06 PM
thus far this season u idiot

I guess u would have kicked santana off your team as well

buchholz had 1 bad start against the yankees, your bff lester has maybe one decent start, but if you look at their stats, buchholz has been more consistent with his control and his era has been much lower than lesters. your comparison is still ridiculous even if its this season seeing buchholz has had one bad start compared to lesters 2 to 3, you idiot

you re calling me an idiot? after that last sentence you shouldnt even be talking, how is santana even comparable to lester? santana as buchholz had one bad start but has been consistently above average, lester has gone past the 6 inning just twice and walking 3 to 5 batters on a consistent basis.

ThreeIfBaerga
04-20-2008, 02:27 PM
Wow, you guys need to grow up and stop arguing like children. Arguing over who "won" and calling each other idiots? Jesus, c'mon.


The fact is, Lester is not going to be an all time great, so comparing him to Pedro, Schilling, Johan, Maddux, etc is just foolish. He'll be a decent starter and an important piece to a winning team if he develops his command with potential for more if he can refine everything. He's not Maddux, he's not Pedro. He's more like Andy Pettite, decent, important, valuable.

bosox1899
04-20-2008, 02:35 PM
Wow, you guys need to grow up and stop arguing like children. Arguing over who "won" and calling each other idiots? Jesus, c'mon.


The fact is, Lester is not going to be an all time great, so comparing him to Pedro, Schilling, Johan, Maddux, etc is just foolish. He'll be a decent starter and an important piece to a winning team if he develops his command with potential for more if he can refine everything. He's not Maddux, he's not Pedro. He's more like Andy Pettite, decent, important, valuable.

no im not arguing who won and im not the one calling people idiots, i was simply stating my case for why lester is no more than a number 4 or 5 starter

ThreeIfBaerga
04-20-2008, 02:36 PM
no im not arguing who won and im not the one calling people idiots, i was simply stating my case for why lester is no more than a number 4 or 5 starter



At this point? You're right. However, he's got potential to be much more, and is only some fastball command away from that. Like I said before, I think last night was a step forward if he can continue it for another start or two.

bosox1899
04-20-2008, 02:47 PM
At this point? You're right. However, he's got potential to be much more, and is only some fastball command away from that. Like I said before, I think last night was a step forward if he can continue it for another start or two.

yea i had posted that if lester can pitch similar to last night with less hits allowed for at least 4 or 5 more starts in a row then id be more confident in him

ThreeIfBaerga
04-20-2008, 03:04 PM
yea i had posted that if lester can pitch similar to last night with less hits allowed for at least 4 or 5 more starts in a row then id be more confident in him



Completely reasonable. However, I still think Lester should get the nod over Buchholz, if only because Lester has less option years. Adjusting Lester to the majors needs to happen quicker because of the fact that he's got less time to develop in the bigs than Buchholz.

bosox1899
04-20-2008, 04:17 PM
Completely reasonable. However, I still think Lester should get the nod over Buchholz, if only because Lester has less option years. Adjusting Lester to the majors needs to happen quicker because of the fact that he's got less time to develop in the bigs than Buchholz.

for those reasons i have to agree, even though i rather it be Buchholz the more sensible choice is gonna be Lester :(. Though i dont even think its a given that colon is gonna be brought up, is it? why dont we just go to the 6 man rotation, theres good and bad things about it and prob not the smartest thing to do midseason, but itll make the decision easier :D

lil'papi
04-21-2008, 07:38 AM
first I did play baseball for over 10 years, second just because moyer was a good pitcher doesnt prove that teams NEED a lefty, we already won a WS without one as someone mentioned..

Pedro not steller?! Becketts not stellar but still better and pettite was about the same as beckett


Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP

Pedro Martinez

1992 20 LAD NL 0 1 2 1 0 0 1 0 8.0 6 2 2 0 1 8 0 0 31 0 0 2.25 3.47 154 0.875
1993 21 LAD NL 10 5 65 2 0 0 20 2 107.0 76 34 31 5 57 119 4 3 444 4 1 2.61 3.84 147 1.243 RoY-9
1994 22 MON NL 11 5 24 23 1 1 1 1 144.7 115 58 55 11 45 142 11 6 584 3 0 3.42 4.26 125 1.106
1995 23 MON NL 14 10 30 30 2 2 0 0 194.7 158 79 76 21 66 174 11 5 784 1 2 3.51 4.31 123 1.151

Josh Beckett
2001 21 FLA NL 2 2 4 4 0 0 0 0 24.0 14 9 4 3 11 24 1 1 99 0 0 1.50 4.23 282 1.042
2002 22 FLA NL 6 7 23 21 0 0 0 0 107.7 93 56 49 13 44 113 1 5 454 2 0 4.10 4.03 98 1.272
2003 23 FLA NL 9 8 24 23 0 0 1 0 142.0 132 54 48 9 56 152 2 6 601 4 1 3.04 4.20 138 1.324
Andy Pettite

1995 23 NYY AL 12 9 31 26 3 0 1 0 175.0 183 86 81 15 63 114 1 8 745 3 1 4.17 4.63 111 1.406 RoY-3
1996 24 NYY AL 21 8 35 34 2 0 1 0 221.0 229 105 95 23 72 162 3 6 929 2 1 3.87 5.00 129 1.362 MVP-14,CYA-2,AS
1997 25 NYY AL 18 7 35 35 4 1 0 0 240.3 233 86 77 7 65 166 3 7 986 0 0 2.88 4.48 155 1.240 CYA-5



Pedro won the ROY how is that not stellar? Well i win that one :rolleyes:
Beckett had a 4.1 era still better than the 4.7 with less walks and more strikeouts so i win that one too i guess
Pettite had a 4.17 era again better than Lester

point being is that most of those pitchers showed a slightest bit of command, so far lester has gotten worse by the innings, 4.7 now hes at a ~5.10, he hasnt shown any signs of pitching to his potential like many of those other pitchers, but lets give him a full season then ill have a better argument, my prediction would be around 190 innings, 4.90 era, 100+ BBs, 100 Ks, 7-10 (W/L)

Except for one thing they aren't in the AL EAST! How was Beckett his first year in Boston.

Go re-read your arguement , it was pitchers don't get better .....

In fact every pitcher listed got a lot better. I could go on with a ZILLION different pitchers that improved dramatically over their early careers.

Give the kid some time before you write him off. so if you played ten years you should have a clue as to why lefties cause problems. Even ones that throw 78 mph like Moyer.

lil'papi
04-21-2008, 07:41 AM
for those reasons i have to agree, even though i rather it be Buchholz the more sensible choice is gonna be Lester :(. Though i dont even think its a given that colon is gonna be brought up, is it? why dont we just go to the 6 man rotation, theres good and bad things about it and prob not the smartest thing to do midseason, but itll make the decision easier :D

Now its a 6 man rotation? We debated that last year for months.
They said they explored it and it wasn't going to happen. Buchholz according to your logic won't improve either. What difference does it make which one......as neither can get better?

nygiants242
04-21-2008, 08:01 AM
Bucholz. Lester is solid and Bucholz's ERA is pretty high, also especially since they want to limit his innings they should put him in AAA

When will Colon come up anyway?

lil'papi
04-21-2008, 09:06 AM
Colon is just starting long toss, they hope and believe he won't opt out the 1st of May. They are hoping to extend the date to the 15th, last I heard.
He needs to throw some BP's then a game or so before a callup. We need his moxy ......and if he can't get it done we haven't lost anything. My gut tells me he will be fine, if healthy ie: better than Lester or Buchholz.

Buchholz has NOT made a case for himself , period!

RedSoxtober
04-21-2008, 09:06 AM
Wow, you guys need to grow up and stop arguing like children. Arguing over who "won" and calling each other idiots? Jesus, c'mon.


The fact is, Lester is not going to be an all time great, so comparing him to Pedro, Schilling, Johan, Maddux, etc is just foolish. He'll be a decent starter and an important piece to a winning team if he develops his command with potential for more if he can refine everything. He's not Maddux, he's not Pedro. He's more like Andy Pettite, decent, important, valuable.

He was not being compared to any of those pitchers in terms of their long term impact. The point of comparison was his development; like them he is likely to improve as he gets more chances to face MLB lineups. As with any player, you either learn to make adjustments at each level or you don't stick. It's a worthwhile point in light of the assertion that he's worthless floatsam on Boston Harbor after 100IP in MLB.


buchholz had 1 bad start against the yankees, your bff lester has maybe one decent start, but if you look at their stats, buchholz has been more consistent with his control and his era has been much lower than lesters. your comparison is still ridiculous even if its this season seeing buchholz has had one bad start compared to lesters 2 to 3, you idiot

you re calling me an idiot? after that last sentence you shouldnt even be talking, how is santana even comparable to lester? santana as buchholz had one bad start but has been consistently above average, lester has gone past the 6 inning just twice and walking 3 to 5 batters on a consistent basis.

First of all, keep the name calling to yourself (everyone!). You either keep the conversation on baseball or you'll find yourself keeping Farnsworth company.

Second, the superlatives you throw around are crazy. "gone past the 6 inning just twice..." True, but when you consider that he's had only five starts and we're just through the third week of April (when lots of pitchers are limited in IP anyway) that's just emotionalism.

Should we go find out which other pitchers are in the same boat? How about Sabathia, who hasn't made it through six, let alone past it? Verlander has made it past the sixth inning just once, has allowed 3 or more BB in his last three starts, and does not have a single quality start (Lester has 2). Jon Garland has made it past the fifth "only twice" including a full body slam by TEX (whom Lester dispatched). Do these guys suck more than Lester in your view? Your measuring stick says they do. Either you're emotionally reacting to this one situation that you're close to or you think these guys all suck.

lil'papi
04-21-2008, 09:10 AM
Bosox1899
I agree, some think he ll just change all of a sudden and start throwing strikes. How? What is he gonna do change his stance? Change his arm angle? Some pitchers take a while to find their groove but most you can tell what type of pitcher they are from the first 20 starts

I just totally disagree.

lil'papi
04-21-2008, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by ThreeIfBaerga
Wow, you guys need to grow up and stop arguing like children. Arguing over who "won" and calling each other idiots? Jesus, c'mon.


The fact is, Lester is not going to be an all time great, so comparing him to Pedro, Schilling, Johan, Maddux, etc is just foolish. He'll be a decent starter and an important piece to a winning team if he develops his command with potential for more if he can refine everything. He's not Maddux, he's not Pedro. He's more like Andy Pettite, decent, important, valuable.

I was not comparing his ability, more the idea pitchers don't mature after a 100+innings. They mature over time its more a rarity when a guy comes up and dominates his first 20 starts.

Never said he would become a star either , in fact, he could be a flop? But, at this point in time we DON'T know.

RedSoxtober
04-21-2008, 01:44 PM
I've got to give this to Clay: he can make some adjustments. He was far less than spectacular to start (57 pitches through 3, 74 through 4) but came back to settle in pretty nicely (6IP, 103 pitches, 68 strikes).

lil'papi
04-22-2008, 07:21 AM
^^ He seems to have a higher ceiling than Lester. Lester I see as a #3 or #4 on this staff , if , he improves.

Buchy needs to still get his pitch count down more consistently , but he has to hurry before that 20th start or he is done for. :p

Buchholz , if , he keeps on maturing I see him as a #2 on this staff.

DiceK #3 , Beckett unless his arm falls off.... numero uno.

Next couple of years.

knittingmill
04-22-2008, 08:38 AM
to me, buchholz is better than lester. i'd rather have my best pitchers pitching.

bosox1899
04-22-2008, 11:04 AM
Now its a 6 man rotation? We debated that last year for months.
They said they explored it and it wasn't going to happen. Buchholz according to your logic won't improve either. What difference does it make which one......as neither can get better?

Buchholz has shown that he can pitch well and it didnt take him 170 innings to show it, so he is obviously gonna get better, lester on the other hand hasn't shown any signs of consistency so when i see it ill believe it.

sboyajian
04-22-2008, 11:33 AM
hey you remember that time, when we traded Aaron Sele and then he went 69 - 35 over the next 4 years with 2 All Star appearances and a top 5 Cy Young candidate..

not saying Sele is a phenom, not by any means (not the way he was supposed to have been).. but you gotta give the guys more time in the bigs than 2 incomplete seasons..

lil'papi
04-23-2008, 08:50 AM
Buchholz has shown that he can pitch well and it didnt take him 170 innings to show it, so he is obviously gonna get better, lester on the other hand hasn't shown any signs of consistency so when i see it ill believe it.


Go read my posts. I've said numerous times Buchholz ceiling appears higher! That doesn't mean Lester won't improve over time.

I would keep Buchholz over Lester ,yes.

My point was simple and you still are here debating it.

Some pitchers are better than others , duh. That has no bearing whatsoever on whether they improve given innings and a chance to repeat deliveries.

I gave a boat load of examples some HOF caliber pitchers. We haven't given him the chance he deserves and no matter what you think the RS WILL give him that chance because they also know this.

He has potential, he has the build, the smarts, he seems durable, he HAS shown glimpses. (cleveland) and a few other starts. He seems to have a knack for doing just enough.

Maybe given innings he gives us more and more quality starts. :shrug:

bosox1899
04-23-2008, 09:24 AM
Go read my posts. I've said numerous times Buchholz ceiling appears higher! That doesn't mean Lester won't improve over time.

I would keep Buchholz over Lester ,yes.

My point was simple and you still are here debating it.

Some pitchers are better than others , duh. That has no bearing whatsoever on whether they improve given innings and a chance to repeat deliveries.

I gave a boat load of examples some HOF caliber pitchers. We haven't given him the chance he deserves and no matter what you think the RS WILL give him that chance because they also know this.

He has potential, he has the build, the smarts, he seems durable, he HAS shown glimpses. (cleveland) and a few other starts. He seems to have a knack for doing just enough.

Maybe given innings he gives us more and more quality starts. :shrug:


I understand that and yes it may happen, it was just my opinion from watching him that I dont think hes gonna improve all that much, it seems that a lot of people agree that hes a number 4 or 5 starter maybe 3 at the best. the only really thing he can improve on is his command and that can only help so much.

RedSoxRok34
04-23-2008, 01:50 PM
just to add a new twist to this whole bit:

0-3 8.82 ERA, in 16.1 IP 25 hits allowed, 10 walks, 10 strikeouts
0-2 9.64 ERA, in 14.0 IP 19 hits allowed, 13 walks, 13 strikeouts
1-2 5.06 ERA, in 26.2 IP 28 hits allowed, 17 walks, 15 strikeouts
1-1 4.79 ERA, in 20.2 IP 23 hits allowed, 8 walks, 17 strikeouts

personally i'd take the stat lines of the last two, when in order they are the stats of

phil hughes
ian kennedy
jon lester
clay buchholz

granted lester is a couple years older, but due to the cancer issue this is his first full season, same as the other three. our young guys are doing better than the yankees'. the only one on the the yankees really panicking is hank steinbrenner, and hes a dip **** (i know that will be censored, but i think you know what S word was there)

young players, especially pitchers, do not become instant allstars very often. you have to bear with them during the growing pains. i fully expect hughes and buchholz to develop into ace-caliber pitchers, and lester and kennedy to be solid #2/#3 starters. you just have to be patient right now.

lil'papi
04-24-2008, 07:21 AM
I was thinking the same thing about Hughes and Kennedy. Although Kennedy's ceiling imho looks kinda low. Hughes for me has the tools.

Given time we should see major improvements.

I wouldn't trade Lester for Kennedy or Buchholz for Hughes. I would trade Lester for Hughes, and if I was the NYY's, Kennedy for Buchholz no brainer.

I like our two better. But this needs to play out.......and YES Lester only needs to improve command ever see Greg Maddox pitch if it weren't for command he'd be boxing groceries.

lil'papi
04-30-2008, 07:02 AM
Thanks Jon for confirming my points. Command means EVERYTHING.

King Carlos
04-30-2008, 07:23 AM
Thanks Jon for confirming my points. Command means EVERYTHING.

I don't know, Lester was GOOD, but if the Jays were hitting like they were in the Boston and Texas series a couple weeks ago, the outcome would've been different IMHO, and sorry if I sound like a *****y Blue Jays fan trying to start something, that isn't my intention.

lil'papi
04-30-2008, 08:17 AM
No reason too. You made my point even more clear.

Lester was good , plain and simple. If the Sox were hitting like they were a couple weeks ago the outcome would have been different , much different , IMHO.;)
please....

Pitchers duel.......its fun , neither deserved a loss but one guy gave up what one hit? Command was good and he got better as the night rolled along.


I understand that and yes it may happen, it was just my opinion from watching him that I dont think hes gonna improve all that much, it seems that a lot of people agree that hes a number 4 or 5 starter maybe 3 at the best. the only really thing he can improve on is his command and that can only help so much.

Our guy needed the outing in the worst way for confidence.

sboyajian
04-30-2008, 08:43 AM
I love how the argument to say Jon isn't that good is:

Lester was GOOD, but if the Jays were hitting like they were in the Boston and Texas series a couple weeks ago, the outcome would've been different IMHO

Ok.. so everytime a pitcher has a good outing, it's because the hitters weren't hitting.. I think that's obvious.. but why is it the hitters fault for not hitting.. maybe.. oh I don't know.. they didn't hit that well because the pitcher did a good job.

That's like saying.. If Tampa bay was hitting really well the other night, there is no way Beckett would have gotten 13 strikeouts.. well.. obviously.. but they weren't hitting well, BECAUSE beckett got 13 k's.

Towelie
04-30-2008, 10:27 AM
I don't know, Lester was GOOD, but if the Jays were hitting like they were in the Boston and Texas series a couple weeks ago, the outcome would've been different IMHO, and sorry if I sound like a *****y Blue Jays fan trying to start something, that isn't my intention.

How do you know there not hitting that way? Maybe just like we did you have run into good pitching. Like Lester limited you guys to 1 hit! it's not like he had 0 K's either he had 6. Ya, of course it's gonna be different if your team can't stop hitting but you know what this is baseball not what if.

bosox1899
04-30-2008, 11:44 AM
No reason too. You made my point even more clear.

Lester was good , plain and simple. If the Sox were hitting like they were a couple weeks ago the outcome would have been different , much different , IMHO.;)
please....

Pitchers duel.......its fun , neither deserved a loss but one guy gave up what one hit? Command was good and he got better as the night rolled along.



Our guy needed the outing in the worst way for confidence.

that was a great outing by lesterbut if he can consistently pitch close to that in his next several outings then ill be more convinced

mmmdelish
04-30-2008, 11:44 AM
I love how the argument to say Jon isn't that good is:


Ok.. so everytime a pitcher has a good outing, it's because the hitters weren't hitting.. I think that's obvious.. but why is it the hitters fault for not hitting.. maybe.. oh I don't know.. they didn't hit that well because the pitcher did a good job.

That's like saying.. If Tampa bay was hitting really well the other night, there is no way Beckett would have gotten 13 strikeouts.. well.. obviously.. but they weren't hitting well, BECAUSE beckett got 13 k's.

Lester is good, what he was saying is he might've given up a run or two if the opposing offense wasn't struggling so bad, he could be wrong, he was just stating his opinion, as a blue jay fan, i apologize if anyone was offended.

sboyajian
04-30-2008, 11:57 AM
no apology needed.. it's not a "blue jay" mentality.. a lot of fans say things like that.

But it's really the same thing on the other side.. Halladay pitched a great game.. but.. perhaps the sox, coming off a 4 or 5 game skid, weren't hitting the way they would normally..

or.. perhaps, both offenses saw genuinely good pitching and defense. :)

King Carlos
04-30-2008, 12:03 PM
no apology needed.. it's not a "blue jay" mentality.. a lot of fans say things like that.

But it's really the same thing on the other side.. Halladay pitched a great game.. but.. perhaps the sox, coming off a 4 or 5 game skid, weren't hitting the way they would normally..

or.. perhaps, both offenses saw genuinely good pitching and defense. :)


Yeah, after revising my position on the matter from looking at stats from yesterdays game, i completely agree, both pitchers were amazing, but oddly enough, in a game dominated by good pitching, it was Pedroia's defensive play that saved a run in the 9th that gave you the win(amazing play), otherwise this game probably goes to extra innings.

Lord Byron 34
04-30-2008, 06:04 PM
I think Lester is about to really turn the corner. Let's not forget that the guy had cancer (kind of a big deal). Last year was about him returning to baseball, this year is about him really progressing and putting all of his hardships behind him. Having said all that, I think Buchholz will be the better of the two.

ZHawk1123
04-30-2008, 06:15 PM
Buchholz will be the better of the two by a mile... It's really not even close IMO

sboyajian
04-30-2008, 08:57 PM
Yeah, after revising my position on the matter from looking at stats from yesterdays game, i completely agree, both pitchers were amazing, but oddly enough, in a game dominated by good pitching, it was Pedroia's defensive play that saved a run in the 9th that gave you the win(amazing play), otherwise this game probably goes to extra innings.It was identical to the play Pedroia made to save the no-hitter for Buccholz last year.

lil'papi
05-01-2008, 07:55 AM
that was a great outing by lesterbut if he can consistently pitch close to that in his next several outings then ill be more convinced


Gee, I'll have to tell Jon that. :rolleyes:

Give the kid innings and hopefully it pays off because he is talented. Next few outings won't determine anything longterm.

One big reason for cold bats is cold weather at the Fens. When its cold its much harder to hit, but also its harder to grip the BB.

RS just played 20 games in a row, now they play 16 in a row. So take that into consideration along with Drew going down the drain again and Casey going down thats hurt our offense.

lil'papi
05-01-2008, 07:56 AM
It was identical to the play Pedroia made to save the no-hitter for Buccholz last year.


Best 2 bagger in the AL. (feathers ruffled :))

Fury
05-01-2008, 04:18 PM
I say Lester..Bucholz got good stuff hes real young wit great potential

celticfan
05-01-2008, 05:37 PM
Buchholtz

Shaiza
05-01-2008, 06:56 PM
Buchholtz

Buchholz

sboyajian
05-01-2008, 10:04 PM
Buchholtz

I had a typo.. should have been Buchholz... I think I double hit the c's. still closer than you.. a t.. heh..

knittingmill
05-03-2008, 07:32 AM
Buchholz is the better pitcher. maybe we need to control his innings in the minors for the postseason but we also gotta make sure we get there.

papipapsmanny
05-03-2008, 12:19 PM
again i say neither colon is trash

Tragedy
05-03-2008, 12:52 PM
again i say neither colon is trash
How can you be so sure?

lil'papi
05-05-2008, 08:36 AM
Lester good again.......ERA under 4.00. More K's than W's now. He needed to step up and he seems to be.

Colon = insurance. Very interesting problem to have Someone is going to get squeezed if Colon comes back strong.
Maybe Wake to the pen? He might be an answer...he has done it before. Not sure what other scenarios make sense.

Colon as the setup guy? Anyone know if he has ever pitched from the pen?

RedSoxtober
05-05-2008, 09:24 AM
Lester good again.......ERA under 4.00. More K's than W's now. He needed to step up and he seems to be.

In today's papers Lester mentioned the plan to step up the pace so that he's not "thinking too much". Well diagnosed, Dr. Baseball. :D. Seriously, since Farrell got him to get back on the hill and throw quicker (last 2 starts) he's been much more effective.


Colon = insurance. Very interesting problem to have Someone is going to get squeezed if Colon comes back strong.
Maybe Wake to the pen? He might be an answer...he has done it before. Not sure what other scenarios make sense.

Colon as the setup guy? Anyone know if he has ever pitched from the pen?

Colon to the pen was the original plan that I'd heard. It sounded like internet fluff when his contract came out with incentives for games started. Colon might balk at that given the cash he'd be losing.

ThreeIfBaerga
05-05-2008, 11:27 AM
Colon will be starting somewhere.

Remember in the beginning of the year the thing about Beckett giving all that credit to the time off he had in the middle of last year? Maybe we'll see some of that. Maybe they'll need to limit Lester or Buchholz' innings. Maybe someone will go down with an injury.The thing is, this is a good problem to have, and they always seem to work themselves out.

DRitchie18
05-05-2008, 02:12 PM
Is this a joke? You actually think that Colon is going to be taking anyone's spots. He is terrible and will never replace either Lester or Buchholz in the rotation. Wakefield should be replaced before any of those two. They have both gotten much better since the start of the season. Anyway the Red Sox are limiting Buchholz innings to 180 this year and if he averages 6 innings a start he'll be right there. Colon sucks

sboyajian
05-05-2008, 02:23 PM
Is this a joke? You actually think that Colon is going to be taking anyone's spots. He is terrible and will never replace either Lester or Buchholz in the rotation. Wakefield should be replaced before any of those two. They have both gotten much better since the start of the season. Anyway the Red Sox are limiting Buchholz innings to 180 this year and if he averages 6 innings a start he'll be right there. Colon sucks
Worst 2nd post in PSD history.

RedSoxtober
05-05-2008, 04:49 PM
Worst 2nd post in PSD history.

IDK, I pretty much hate starters who have a 4.03 era early in the season, especially when they have a track record of 200+IP...

papipapsmanny
05-05-2008, 05:40 PM
why are u guys obsessed with colon he has proved nothign over the last 3 years, and hasnt even proved that he is capable of pitching right now. Lester and Buchhholz are doing fine. why potentionally ruin a good thing and hinder development for a washed up SP.

If anything put him in the pen, I trust schilling before i trust colon

lil'papi
05-06-2008, 08:43 AM
why are u guys obsessed with colon he has proved nothign over the last 3 years, and hasnt even proved that he is capable of pitching right now. Lester and Buchhholz are doing fine. why potentionally ruin a good thing and hinder development for a washed up SP.

If anything put him in the pen, I trust schilling before i trust colon

Where do you get obsessed from? He is pitching again, he is on our team, they have to make a decision on him in the next couple of weeks.

Your suggestion is what exactly? How do you know for sure he is washed up, in fact he has a lot to prove. He was throwing mid-90's again and was very effective in his starts in AAA.

So you suggest what , cut him loose? please...

I hate these posts, make no sense whatsoever. They ARE going to use him so we are trying to ENVISION the where's , hows and whens.

Trust me if he is good they will use him. They might use him as bait too. I have no idea, as for the contract and starts they could easily fix that so he will except the pen. It's just moving money around.

Colon sucks....wow such insight.:rolleyes:

papipapsmanny
05-06-2008, 05:21 PM
well he does suck and if they bring him up im hope to god he proves me wrong, but i want lester and clay to have uniterrupted seasons

I dont want there seasons to be interrupted because of a project

granted if the project works it would pay huge dividends, i dont think its worth the very high risk

sboyajian
05-06-2008, 11:46 PM
IDK, I pretty much hate starters who have a 4.03 era early in the season, especially when they have a track record of 200+IP...look at our inning eater going 8 innings and dropping his ERA to 3.33...

bagwell368
05-06-2008, 11:51 PM
Colon & Schill

vets. worthwhile perhaps. worth the wait to see. so chill out, and see.

massherst45
05-07-2008, 12:54 AM
What is the big deal about getting Colon in the rotation? I really think the only way he starts is if one of the guys in the rotation gets hurt. We need to build Lester and Buchholz's confidence right now. They are two great young arms who would lose a ton of confidence if they got sent down. Part of me even wanted Schill to retire this summer in order to get these guys in our rotation. It just doesn't make sense to send them down. Maybe not for this year, but for the future.

DRitchie18
05-07-2008, 12:57 AM
why are u guys obsessed with colon he has proved nothign over the last 3 years, and hasnt even proved that he is capable of pitching right now. Lester and Buchhholz are doing fine. why potentionally ruin a good thing and hinder development for a washed up SP.

If anything put him in the pen, I trust schilling before i trust colon

Lester and Buchholz have continued to improve and have shown that they are ready to perform in the major leagues. Unless Colon puts up numbers similar to his cy young year, which is highly unlikely, he is going to be around a 4.5 era considering his age and his career numbers. Lester and Buchholz will definitely have a better year than that and they have already proven their talent late in the season and in the playoffs.

sboyajian
05-07-2008, 06:24 AM
Let's be 100% fair.. everyone keeps saying they keep improving..

but With the season start Lester had.. he only had two real options..

Continue to lose control or get better.. he had much room for improvement, while his last two have been great.. (one much better than the other), he has had troubles so far.

lil'papi
05-07-2008, 07:11 AM
Colon gives them options. Buchholz is DEFinately on a innings watch. Somewhere along the line he needs to miss a start or so.
Lester for me needs innings as many as he can get so he can keep developing.
Colon who hadn't thrown in a while was clocked at 93mph in his last session. I really believe they move him to the pen or at least explore it. I don't want Buchholz to lose his slot either or Lester.

But I know they think longterm. At this point sending Buchholz down would be silly. That much I agree. The point of this conversation is to objectively think of a way they use him.
I keep hearing Tavy is going buh-bye as in traded. Until Colon proves healthy enough that makes little sense.

Remember just when you think we have enough , we don't. This happens every year.....

Schilling, who cares. He is so far away from competing its just foolish to talk about him. We won't know anything till late June.

I think they use Colon as a starter to see where it leads them. If he is really good someone is gone. If not, look for a trade none of this will happen quickly though.

I am not sure on his contract as far as trading him? :eyebrow:

WhyDuquette
05-07-2008, 07:16 AM
Im still not that sold on Lester. I would like to see colon have a couple of spot starts to give starters a rest and see how he pitches.

Tragedy
05-07-2008, 09:47 AM
well he does suck and if they bring him up im hope to god he proves me wrong, but i want lester and clay to have uniterrupted seasons

I dont want there seasons to be interrupted because of a project

granted if the project works it would pay huge dividends, i dont think its worth the very high risk
How does Colon "suck" exactly? Does he "suck" because he's been unhealthy the past two seasons? Okay, well, Lowell was injured all of April - He sucks, lets trade him.

Do you see what I'm doing here? We're talking about a guy who was last healthy in 2005 and won the Cy Young. He's healthy again. Why NOT give him a shot to see if he has anything? If he does, great, we get ourselves an arm that is experienced and has a former Cy Young award. He doesn't work? We cut him from the rotation quickly and he leaves the team. It's really as simple as that.

And why are people getting so upset? All (Or most, anyways) young pitchers have inning limits. Buchholz is going to be around 180. We NEED a 6th starter at some point.

lil'papi
05-08-2008, 07:47 AM
Buchholz hit a speed bump last night~!

sboyajian
05-08-2008, 08:21 AM
Buchholz hit a speed bump last night~!looked more like a spike strip.

lil'papi
05-09-2008, 08:54 AM
Without run flats.....

Colon looks thinner after that outing and he looks prettier.

lil'papi
05-10-2008, 07:32 AM
Colon looks ALOT better after the last two outings. :D (Buchy-Lester)

ThreeIfBaerga
05-10-2008, 10:23 AM
Lester had a decent outing, why are people down on it? he only went 5.1 but could have gone more, and only gave up 3 earned runs.

papipapsmanny
05-10-2008, 06:52 PM
say colon comes up and gives us a 4 ERA, thats not helping us, because lester and buc pretty much do that, so we would just get the same productions while hindering someones development

lil'papi
05-11-2008, 07:20 AM
.....these kids will need days off. In FACT, if they don't get them they will be hindered. (or hurt) Same with DiceK and Beckett and Wake down the road... days off will HELP not hinder!

We have a guy that possibly could help us and a 4.00era isn't anything to sneeze about in our league.

They will have a decision to make, not us, not me, the FO and Tito's crew.

Lester was barely ok, he gave up three in 5 innings. Add up that ERA.....
He has been better as of late and I'm a fan of his. I also love Buchholz , but neither gets a pedestal just yet.

lil'papi
05-13-2008, 08:27 AM
^^ See he already looks to need a day off. (Buchholz) That's why these things need to play out. He looks like a deer in the headlights on the road! The Celtics and him have the same road disease.

so now we use Colon to pitch his road games. :D

DirtyThirty
05-13-2008, 01:21 PM
Def Buch because he still needs some learning and Lester is a lefty which is what the sox need in the rotation. Buch hasnt impressed me this season so far

DirtyThirty
05-13-2008, 01:24 PM
hey papipapsmanny ur the first Redskins Redsox fan ive ever seen. good man.

lil'papi
05-15-2008, 09:48 AM
Again Lester was pretty good. Also, Colon looks like a godsend. NEVER enough pitching.

Hopefully Colon will pitch well enough.

Middle relief must be addressed. I really thought we would solve that, but no dice so far.

RedSoxtober
05-15-2008, 10:49 AM
Def Buch because he still needs some learning and Lester is a lefty which is what the sox need in the rotation. Buch hasnt impressed me this season so far

Buchholz has been a typical rookie pitcher -- brilliant one day and gas can the next. I agree that he has not been impressive generally, but in instances he's been great.

lil'papi
05-16-2008, 08:13 AM
Only at home....only at home......^^

lil'papi
05-16-2008, 08:17 AM
OH' I heard last night.....this finger nail thing JD DREW called dibs on , but Buchholz won because JD was using the wrist excuse already. :D

Seriously, he has no finger nail problem according to reports. They wanted to get him some REST and make room for roster moves. Two birds on stone....

JD said he would use it later on....

penuch
05-19-2008, 10:05 PM
Well Lester just settled this debate for right now IMO :clap:. Congrats on the NO -NO

quiksilver2491
05-19-2008, 10:06 PM
Well now they both have a no-hitter in common. Don't know too many teams who can say that about their young pitchers. Even before the no-no Lester was starting to show me he was the guy who should stay in the rotation, he just needs to keep his pitch count down but that will come in time, but whoever questioned his stuff was deffintely proven wrong.

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 10:07 PM
i wouldnt get too caught up in the no no thing

yes it very nice but i remember buchholz getting a no no last year and since then he hasnt been much.

its nice, it is, but id still worry about lesters control if i were a sox fan one great start doesnt make up for many mediocre ones and a lot of bad ones

papipapsmanny
05-19-2008, 10:07 PM
****ing Neither as i have said all along

Colon= long relief/occassional spot start Tavarez reborn

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 10:12 PM
****ing Neither as i have said all along

Colon= long relief/occassional spot start Tavarez reborn

lol seems pretty obvious to me, i still dont see what u guys see in colon.

buchholz is hurt now tho so i guess the problem works itself out

K2OB4E
05-19-2008, 10:19 PM
lol seems pretty obvious to me, i still dont see what u guys see in colon.

buchholz is hurt now tho so i guess the problem works itself out

a veteran who is a 3-4 years back from a Cy Young? Who decided to sign cheap, who has had a good stint in the minors, is throwing his fast ball in the 93 range. Yeah I see nothing but bad coming from this. :rolleyes:

K2OB4E
05-19-2008, 10:21 PM
Buchholz is not really hurt, it's his nail, they are just being cautious, trying to save some innings for the end of the year, seeing as he is on a inning count this season.

RedSoxtober
05-19-2008, 10:23 PM
i wouldnt get too caught up in the no no thing

yes it very nice but i remember buchholz getting a no no last year and since then he hasnt been much.

its nice, it is, but id still worry about lesters control if i were a sox fan one great start doesnt make up for many mediocre ones and a lot of bad ones

Seems like you came here looking to 'enlighten' us on how cautious we should be. If you were really paying that much attention you might think twice about such 'insights'... they sound kinda stupid when he's 3-0, 1.57era, 0.873whip in his last five starts with a no-hitter and a 1-hit, 8IP start in that stretch.

Oh, maybe you meant you'd be worried as a White Sox fan. :rolleyes:


lol seems pretty obvious to me, i still dont see what u guys see in colon.

buchholz is hurt now tho so i guess the problem works itself out

95MPH fastball that he's spotting to both sides of the plate. He still has to show he can due it in MLB, but the knock on him has been arm strength (clearly back) and injuries (tbd). At worst he gives us a few starts before returning to the DL. In the mean time the kids slow down on their innings progression.

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 10:24 PM
a veteran who is a 3-4 years back from a Cy Young? Who decided to sign cheap, who has had a good stint in the minors, is throwing his fast ball in the 93 range. Yeah I see nothing but bad coming from this. :rolleyes:

yea those 8IP in AAA surely means hes gonna be good for your team

meanwhile he hasnt been healthy since he won that cy young in 05, and oh ya! when he won it in 05 he was hurt for the 05playoffs.

he has pitched 151IP in the last two years in 06 his ERA was 5.11 in 07 it was 6.34

im still dumfounded why anyone wanted this guy. or why u guys even want him to pitch

with buchholz hurt fine, i get it, but with both him and lester healthy it just doesnt make any sense to me why this guy is on ur team

RedSoxtober
05-19-2008, 10:26 PM
im still dumfounded why anyone wanted this guy. or why u guys even want him to pitch

with buchholz hurt fine, i get it, but with both him and lester healthy it just doesnt make any sense to me why this guy is on ur team

I bet you don't understand term life insurance, either.

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 10:26 PM
Seems like you came here looking to 'enlighten' us on how cautious we should be. If you were really paying that much attention you might think twice about such 'insights'... they sound kinda stupid when he's 3-0, 1.57era, 0.873whip in his last five starts with a no-hitter and a 1-hit, 8IP start in that stretch.

Oh, maybe you meant you'd be worried as a White Sox fan. :rolleyes:



95MPH fastball that he's spotting to both sides of the plate. He still has to show he can due it in MLB, but the knock on him has been arm strength (clearly back) and injuries (tbd). At worst he gives us a few starts before returning to the DL. In the mean time the kids slow down on their innings progression.


as for colon read my post above. arm strength or not since colon won the cy young hes been terrible


as for lesters last 5 starts, theyve been impressive no doubt, i have him on my fantasy team i think hes a good starter.

but 5 starts does not make up for 2years of mediocre ones, nor does it make up for the 5 other bad starts he had this year.

hes good, im just saying.

he isnt johan santana

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 10:29 PM
I bet you don't understand term life insurance, either.

yea i see that. but what im saying is with buchholz and lester healthy why would u send either down for colon?

Tragedy
05-19-2008, 10:31 PM
im still dumfounded why anyone wanted this guy. or why u guys even want him to pitch
:laugh2:

..Are you kidding me? Are you thinking clearly? How much money did Bartolo Colon cost? You don't know? That's because it was so little that no one cared to discuss the price. I have a better question: Why WOULDN'T a team take a chance on a minor league contract on a guy who was once excellent? It's a super low risk, high reward type of things. What's the worst that happens? He gets hurt after one start? He doesn't produce for 2 starts, so Clay pushes him off this team?


but 5 starts does not make up for 2years of mediocre ones, nor does it make up for the 5 other bad starts he had this year.
He pitched a half of a season in 2006 with cancer, and then a half of a season last year.

Yeah, it's difficult to figure out why he didn't gain his full effectiveness until the end of last year, which has carried to this season.


hes good, im just saying.

he isnt johan santana
Who compared him to Santana?


yea i see that. but what im saying is with buchholz and lester healthy why would u send either down for colon?
Why is Joba in the Yankees bullpen right now?

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 10:32 PM
:laugh2:

..Are you kidding me? Are you thinking clearly? How much money did Bartolo Colon cost? You don't know? That's because it was so little that no one cared to discuss the price. I have a better question: Why WOULDN'T a team take a chance on a minor league contract on a guy who was once excellent? It's a super low risk, high reward type of things. What's the worst that happens? He gets hurt after one start? He doesn't produce for 2 starts, so Clay pushes him off this team?


He pitched a half of a season in 2006 with cancer, and then a half of a season last year.

Yeah, it's difficult to figure out why he didn't gain his full effectiveness until the end of last year, which has carried to this season.


Who compared him to Santana?


Why is Joba in the Yankees bullpen right now?

again not aruging picking up colon was a bad idea. what im saying is with both buchholz and lester healthy why would u send either down for colon?

K2OB4E
05-19-2008, 10:33 PM
i wouldnt get too caught up in the no no thing

yes it very nice but i remember buchholz getting a no no last year and since then he hasnt been much.

its nice, it is, but id still worry about lesters control if i were a sox fan one great start doesnt make up for many mediocre ones and a lot of bad ones




Why shouldn't we get excited about John Lester?

He just turned 24.
In 11 starts, he has a solid 3.46 ERA. Holding opponents to a .232 BA, (which will go down after tonight)
Pitched 65 innings, only given up 55 hits (now 74 innings and 55 hits)
Oh yeah and hes a lefty

bagwell368
05-19-2008, 10:33 PM
****ing Neither as i have said all along

Colon= long relief/occassional spot start Tavarez reborn

you have to be kidding right? Nobody with that history of arm issues is going to warm up on anything other then a regular schedule, and then pitch, and then wait his long toss day, etc.

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 10:35 PM
Why shouldn't we get excited about John Lester?

He just turned 24.
In 11 starts, he has a solid 3.46 ERA. Holding opponents to a .232 BA, (which will go down after tonight)
Pitched 65 innings, only given up 55 hits (now 74 innings and 55 hits)
Oh yeah and hes a lefty

oh yea and his named is spelled jon

and hes had a good season but his had 1amazing start 5good starts and 5bad ones

all im saying is the last five starts shouldnt determine the rest of the season, your all forgetting the first 5.

Tragedy
05-19-2008, 10:35 PM
again not aruging picking up colon was a bad idea. what im saying is with both buchholz and lester healthy why would u send either down for colon?
How good has Clay been this year?

bagwell368
05-19-2008, 10:37 PM
Bucholtz is the one SP with the lowest innings limit for the year, so assuming he turns into David Cone after August 1st I want him pitching then through the end of the playoffs. Lester is probably at least 30 if not 50 IP ahead of Bucholtz this year.

Wakefield is the definition of mediocre, If Colon or Masterson seize a job, it would be Bucholtz most likely and Wake 2nd most likely to change roles IMO.

It would a problem the Sox would like to have I warrant.

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 10:37 PM
How good has Clay been this year?

not very

how good has colon been the last two years?

a 5+ERA and a 6+ERA

id take my chances on the guy with mass upside who has an amazing minor league krate and threw a no no himself last year over the injury prone vet who has blown even when healthy

RedSoxtober
05-19-2008, 10:39 PM
yea i see that. but what im saying is with buchholz and lester healthy why would u send either down for colon?

Buchholz has been a typical rookie. Trouble on the road, overthinking on the mound, up-and-down performances. 1-1, 8.56 this month in three starts. He's got tons of potential but until he's doing it regularly at MLB, Colon is not really any worse.

Tragedy
05-19-2008, 10:40 PM
My god. He doesn't get it. Soxtober, help me here?

It's called insurance. In case someone pitched extremely poorly, they had a cheap minor league option in the veteran and one time ace Bartolo Colon.

To limit the innings of either (Or both) Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz, the Red Sox went out and signed a cheap veteran to a minor league contract.

The cheap veteran that we signed, Bartolo Colon, can blame his ineffectiveness the last two season on injuries. It wasn't a sudden drop off in production that gave him poor numbers, it was the injuries. The Red Sox gave him a chance to get healthy in the minors - So far, he's throwing between 94-97 MPH.

How much longer do you want to do this for?

K2OB4E
05-19-2008, 10:40 PM
not very

how good has colon been the last two years?

a 5+ERA and a 6+ERA

id take my chances on the guy with mass upside who has an amazing minor league krate and threw a no no himself last year

Not like the Red Sox organization has given up on him. Maybe going down to the minors would be for the best. Get his confidence back up, he won't have to deal with all the Media, although I don't see him going to the minors for very long.

I am very pumped to see the Sox rotation in a couple seasons.

1. DiceK
2. Leste
3. Buchholz
4. Masterson
5. Wakefield :D

Cullksinikers
05-19-2008, 10:40 PM
I don't know for you guys, Lester just thre a no-no. Great night for him, Bucholtz hasn't been great, Clay should go to AAA. This is from a Cubs fan so...

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 10:42 PM
My god. He doesn't get it. Soxtober, help me here?

It's called insurance. In case someone pitched extremely poorly, they had a cheap minor league option in the veteran and one time ace Bartolo Colon.

To limit the innings of either (Or both) Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz, the Red Sox went out and signed a cheap veteran to a minor league contract.

The cheap veteran that we signed, Bartolo Colon, can blame his ineffectiveness the last two season on injuries. It wasn't a sudden drop off in production that gave him poor numbers, it was the injuries. The Red Sox gave him a chance to get healthy in the minors - So far, he's throwing between 94-97 MPH.

How much longer do you want to do this for?

alright wehn are you gonna get it

im quite clear hes an insurance policy.

BUT!

with both healthy and good to go why are u sending the guy with upside and potential who argubly might be better than injury prone old scrubby veteran? it just doesnt make any sense? insurance policies are for when guys get hurt. or when guys need a rest, or when the rookies get sent down.

not when there both healthy.

i realize clay is hurt now. but when everybodys healthy, why is colon starting over buchholz?

thats all im asking

Tragedy
05-19-2008, 10:46 PM
alright wehn are you gonna get it

:laugh:


with both healthy and good to go why are u sending the guy with upside and potential who argubly might be better than injury prone old scrubby veteran? it just doesnt make any sense?
-One of them is not healthy.
-One of them is not "good to go".

Bartolo Colon is going to showcase his stuff on Wednesday. If he does well, he's likely to get one more start in place of Buchholz. After that? We'll see where Clay is and where Bartolo is. How is that difficult to understand/accept?


insurance policies are for when guys get hurt. or when guys need a rest, or when the rookies get sent down.
For when guys get hurt: Clay Buchholz
When guys need a rest" Clay Buchholz (Inning limit)
When rookies get sent down: Clay Buccholz (Inning limit)



i realize clay is hurt now. but when everybodys healthy, why is colon starting over buchholz?
And at what point did the Red Sox say "When Clay is healthy, Bartolo will be starting, Clay will be in the minors?

That's all I'm asking.

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 10:49 PM
:laugh:


-One of them is not healthy.
-One of them is not "good to go".

Bartolo Colon is going to showcase his stuff on Wednesday. If he does well, he's likely to get one more start in place of Buchholz. After that? We'll see where Clay is and where Bartolo is. How is that difficult to understand/accept?


For when guys get hurt: Clay Buchholz
When guys need a rest" Clay Buchholz (Inning limit)
When rookies get sent down: Clay Buccholz (Inning limit)


And at what point did the Red Sox say "When Clay is healthy, Bartolo will be starting, Clay will be in the minors?

That's all I'm asking.

such confusion

again not arguing with u that colon wasnt and isnt an insurance policy

not saying there are both healthy right now, im saying WHEN

colon is and was a good insurance policy espicially since clay hasnt pitched well this year

and what im asking is at what point did the red sox say "When Clay is healthy, Bartolo will be starting, Clay will be in the minors?

thats what im asking

we are asking the same question.

since this thread started with "colon is coming up, who goes down lester or buchholz "

my original question from the begining has and still is!!!

WHY!!!!!

what is the point of sending either guy down for colon WHEN there all healthy?

get it?

Tragedy
05-19-2008, 10:52 PM
And again: WHO said this? The Red Sox have not said they're sending either down; So why are you arguing that one will be sent down? If Bartolo pitches well, yes, the Sox have every reason to send Clay down to refine his tools and limit his innings.

But otherwise, no one has said that Bartolo is taking a roster spot. He's doing on Wednesday what he was signed to do: Be the insurance guy. Nothing more, for now. So, again: Why are you arguing about nothing? It's as if you're believing the Red Sox made the "Clay will go down" comments, when they did not. Just because a poster asked the question who goes down doesn't mean it's going to happen.

My goodness, how useless of a topic to discuss.

RedSoxtober
05-19-2008, 10:57 PM
oh yea and his named is spelled jon

and hes had a good season but his had 1amazing start 5good starts and 5bad ones

all im saying is the last five starts shouldnt determine the rest of the season, your all forgetting the first 5.


I don't know for you guys, Lester just thre a no-no. Great night for him, Bucholtz hasn't been great, Clay should go to AAA. This is from a Cubs fan so...

I wish you guys would bother to check the stats before you come into the RS forum and start lecturing us on our own players.

7 quality starts in 11 shots so far. Four times he's left the game with 1ER or less. He's been "good" or "very good" in the majority of his starts. Since you probably don't know, the Sox made an adjustment with him (wanna guess how many starts ago?!?) that's allowed him to take decent success in the first month and turn it into regular success lately.

RedSoxtober
05-19-2008, 11:06 PM
what is the point of sending either guy down for colon WHEN there all healthy?

get it?

Then maybe you should stop and listen yourself. What's been said very clearly should be just as obvious. The Sox got Colon as insurance and Buchholz has given them reason to test it out (the fingernail thing is a farce; they'd already said he wouldn't miss a start before they put him on the DL).

The DL stint gives Colon at least two shots to show whether or not he's got anything left to offer. Since he's only got to fill the #5 slot in the rotation it makes a hell of a lot of sense to give Buchholz more time in AAA; he's clearly shown a need to go refine first-pitch strike ability and regain some movement (his curve has been a little flat). He had only 8 starts at the end of 2007 in AAA so going there for a short stint won't hurt him at all and might help him regain some confidence. Furthermore, the Red Sox, you probably don't know, have a very strict set of rules to building IP and Clay was going to have innings curtailed at some point, healthy or not.

See, there are a bunch of factors at play.

BTW, I find it ironic that part of your logic to keep Buchholz in the rotation is "who also threw a no no" even while cautioning us to not get over excited about Lester doing it.

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 11:10 PM
I wish you guys would bother to check the stats before you come into the RS forum and start lecturing us on our own players.

7 quality starts in 11 shots so far. Four times he's left the game with 1ER or less. He's been "good" or "very good" in the majority of his starts. Since you probably don't know, the Sox made an adjustment with him (wanna guess how many starts ago?!?) that's allowed him to take decent success in the first month and turn it into regular success lately.

well since someone either doesnt know how to count or doesnt know how to do math let me break it down for you

11starts

first start 4IP 4ER.. id say bad start
2nd start 6.2IP 3H 0ER. id say good start
3rd start 5.1IP 5H 4ER again id say bad start
4th 4.1P 4ER again id say bad start
5th start 6.1IP 10H 3BB-13 baserunners only 3ER fine- i said bad you so good whateveer we can argue this oen
6th 5IP 4ER again id say bad start
7th 8IP 1H 0ER-good start
8th 6IP 1ER-good start
9th 5.1IP 5R 3ER 8hits-again we can argue this id say bad start
10th 6IP 2ER good start
11th 9IP 0ER 0H- amazing start

so we'll go back to waht i originally said

5Bad starts 5good starts 1amazing one

looking at it again i guess we could say 4bad 4good 1amazing

either way it doesnt matter

btw its 3 times hes left the game with 1ER or fewer, unless ur gonna count tonight which would be ludicrious since he never left.

but sure if they made an adjustment its certainly helped but again he isnt cy young he isnt your best starter and he isnt the 2nd coming.

thats all im saying. coongrats he got a no hitter im glad but there no reason to be an anoying prick about it

whitesoxfan83
05-19-2008, 11:13 PM
Then maybe you should stop and listen yourself. What's been said very clearly should be just as obvious. The Sox got Colon as insurance and Buchholz has given them reason to test it out (the fingernail thing is a farce; they'd already said he wouldn't miss a start before they put him on the DL).

The DL stint gives Colon at least two shots to show whether or not he's got anything left to offer. Since he's only got to fill the #5 slot in the rotation it makes a hell of a lot of sense to give Buchholz more time in AAA; he's clearly shown a need to go refine first-pitch strike ability and regain some movement (his curve has been a little flat). He had only 8 starts at the end of 2007 in AAA so going there for a short stint won't hurt him at all and might help him regain some confidence. Furthermore, the Red Sox, you probably don't know, have a very strict set of rules to building IP and Clay was going to have innings curtailed at some point, healthy or not.

See, there are a bunch of factors at play.

BTW, I find it ironic that part of your logic to keep Buchholz in the rotation is "who also threw a no no" even while cautioning us to not get over excited about Lester doing it.


again all i asked was when all are healthy why would colon be in and not buchholz your all getting to hung up on this insurance nonsense i know hes an insurance policy i get how it works and i know clay is on a pitch count i just dont understand why this was a thread topic thats what i was asking.

and the argument between lester and buchholz is diffrent im saying dont think lester is god because he threw a no hitter

what im also saying is why would u opt for the 35year old whose been garbage in 06 and 07 over the kid who has shown amaizn talent in the minors and pitched a no hitter.

RedSoxtober
05-19-2008, 11:34 PM
btw its 3 times hes left the game with 1ER or fewer, unless ur gonna count tonight which would be ludicrious since he never left.
Sorry, I didn't realize that I had to be so precise linguistically. I will rephrase for your finer sensitivities: "There have been four games in which he has started that when was done pitching he had given up 1 run or less." WTF?


thats all im saying. coongrats he got a no hitter im glad but there no reason to be an anoying prick about it

Right back at ya, big guy. Last I checked you came to the RS forum and started lecturing the Sox fans about how cautious we should be. Not one RS fan has said he's 'god' or anything remotely like it. Not here and not in the IGT (only congrats there, along with admiration for getting a no hitter less than a year after getting back into the rotation from fighting cancer).

As I said earlier, you seemed to come in looking for this.


again all i asked was when all are healthy why would colon be in and not buchholz your all getting to hung up on this insurance nonsense i know hes an insurance policy i get how it works and i know clay is on a pitch count i just dont understand why this was a thread topic thats what i was asking.

and the argument between lester and buchholz is diffrent im saying dont think lester is god because he threw a no hitter

what im also saying is why would u opt for the 35year old whose been garbage in 06 and 07 over the kid who has shown amaizn talent in the minors and pitched a no hitter.

We understand what you are saying. You've repeated often enough that my kids get it too.

I'll try to explain this in a different way that maybe you will understand. If you have three healthy pitchers who can occupy two spots in the rotation reasonably well, then you make the decision based on what will benefit the team most in the future. In the RS perspective, if Colon can be equally effective as Buchholz then it's better for them in the long term to control his innings and get him more starts in AAA. That's better for two reasons: he could fill a role later in the year that he might otherwise not be prepared to fill and his MLB service ticker gets turned off so they have an extra year of club control over him.

A healthy Colon puts the Red Sox in a position that most teams have not had the foresight to work into. As should be abundantly clear, the next two starts will show whether that's the case.

Tragedy
05-19-2008, 11:47 PM
so we'll go back to waht i originally said

5Bad starts 5good starts 1amazing one

looking at it again i guess we could say 4bad 4good 1amazing

either way it doesnt matter
Since when is giving up 4 runs a "bad start"? 3 ER is considered a "quality" start. Is there nothing between "quality" (3 ER) and "bad"? I'd say there has to be.


but sure if they made an adjustment its certainly helped but again he isnt cy young he isnt your best starter and he isnt the 2nd coming.
Who said he was a Cy Young contender?

I think everyone in Boston knows he could very well become a quality number 2 or 3 starter. Cy Young? Says who?


thats all im saying. coongrats he got a no hitter im glad but there no reason to be an anoying prick about it
Uh....Don't call him that, okay? That's your final warning on that front.

We're Red Sox fans. When we have outsiders (Non Red Sox fans) coming in here to basically tell us we don't know what we're talking about (About our OWN team), we kind of have a reason to be a bit pushy.


and the argument between lester and buchholz is diffrent im saying dont think lester is god because he threw a no hitter
Who is saying this? Who is saying he's god? Who is saying he is a Cy Young contender? You're creating stuff that I haven't seen a single person say. Find me one comment where a person, who was serious, said "Lester is god!" or "Lester is a future Cy Young winner"...


what im also saying is why would u opt for the 35year old whose been garbage in 06 and 07 over the kid who has shown amaizn talent in the minors and pitched a no hitter.
You argue against Lester, saying we shouldn't get overly excited about the no hitter. But to justify keeping Clay, you mention that he's thrown a no hitter.

Hm.

bosox1899
05-20-2008, 12:17 AM
Since when is giving up 4 runs a "bad start"? 3 ER is considered a "quality" start. Is there nothing between "quality" (3 ER) and "bad"? I'd say there has to be.

I just wanted to point out that 4 ers isn't bad but it depends on how many innings he went and walks to strikeouts, how many hits he gave up, etc...from the looks of it, in those starts where he gave up 4 ers, he didn't go that far into the game, thats what makes it a "bad" start imo.

bosox3431
05-20-2008, 12:45 AM
i wouldnt get too caught up in the no no thing

yes it very nice but i remember buchholz getting a no no last year and since then he hasnt been much.

its nice, it is, but id still worry about lesters control if i were a sox fan one great start doesnt make up for many mediocre ones and a lot of bad ones

Hasnt been much on the road, a 1.39 ERA in 32inn at home is pretty good and shows he can pitch, just pitching on the road he really needs to work on(6.89 ERA in 32 inn).

lil'papi
05-20-2008, 08:16 AM
Hows Mark Buehrle doing?

lil'papi
05-20-2008, 08:51 AM
Well I'll never back off Lester haha :D He is what he is, I dont see how hes gonna get much better the more he pitches? The batters have already seen him, they know hes not gonna throw strikes and he has a subpar fast ball that theyll just be waiting to crush. But hey if you guys want to wait a whole season in hopes that something might change be my guest, but I really really doubt hes gonna get much better. I hope he proves me wrong though. Also what makes Lester more likely to handle the innings better than Buchholz? I'm pretty sure Buchholz has been throwing for most of his life, hes not just gonna become weak and not be able to throw 180-200 innings. Obviously the Red Sox dont think so and are strict on his innings but sending him down to AAA for that reason is ridiculous, if you must let him miss a start or two, we have Tavarez as much as i dont like him to make a couple of starts.



I agree, some think he ll just change all of a sudden and start throwing strikes. How? What is he gonna do change his stance? Change his arm angle? Some pitchers take a while to find their groove but most you can tell what type of pitcher they are from the first 20 starts. How long do we need to wait for Lester? Apparently another full season according to most of these people.

Here a fine example of a fan who dissed Lester's ability. 20 starts, hahahahahaha

FASTBALL clocked at 96mph late lastnight! He was a steady 95 mph late...poor guy has no FB.

Crow tastes like chicken? Can you get back with that answer. :p

Tragedy
05-20-2008, 10:06 AM
FASTBALL clocked at 96mph late lastnight! He was a steady 95 mph late...poor guy has no FB.
That was one of the first few timse that Lester finally had the velocity that we have been all hearing about since his days in the minors being compared to Papelbon.

That alone is enough to get excited about.

papipapsmanny
05-20-2008, 04:12 PM
im hoping colon does good all i am saying outside of the ocassional spot startm i dont want him to take a rotation spot from lester or buc. It would be stupid at this point

lil'papi
05-21-2008, 07:44 AM
im hoping colon does good all i am saying outside of the ocassional spot startm i dont want him to take a rotation spot from lester or buc. It would be stupid at this point

Go look at Buchholz splits........they suck. So what do we do pitch him at home only? That would be stupid...

Colon is a IF, IF he is good we win, IF he is bad we have Buchholz or Masterson or Schilling. Whats to lose......

Buchholz positively needs innings and AAA makes sense. He can be monitored, work on his rythym keep his innings down....and its not life or death if he wins or loses.

He will impact this team later on.....hopefully! Nobody wrote him off and he isn't a finished product either. If he was he'd be more consistent road vs home.

Options.......insurance....all good.;)

lil'papi
05-21-2008, 08:37 AM
Some humble pie :


Hank Steinbrenner weighs in on Lester

Yankees boss Hank Steinbrenner, who watched highlights of Jon Lester's no-hitter Monday night, said he hopes some of his younger pitchers can begin performing like Lester did.

"Obviously, a great, great story," said Steinbrenner on his cell phone. "Certainly both Lester and [Clay] Buchholz are tremendous young pitchers and it shows you what a good job Boston has done developing those two kids. You have to develop your own. Nobody's going to give you talent like that."

Asked whether it bothers him that the two young Sox starters have pitched so well and his youngsters have struggled, Steinbrenner said, "Well, I think Joba [Chamberlain] has a chance to do that eventually once he's in the starting rotation. I think the kid we drafted last year [Andrew] Brackman has that chance. And I think Philip Hughes and Ian Kennedy will also eventually show what they can do. The AL East is gonna be tough in the future. There are a lot of good young pitchers in the division.

"But I think everyone is happy for Lester given what he's overcome," Steinbrenner added.

Tragedy
05-21-2008, 10:05 AM
Nobody's going to give you talent like that."

:laugh2:

I find this line funny, because he was the only guy in the Yankees FO that WANTED to trade Hughes/Kennedy for Santana.

lil'papi
05-22-2008, 07:44 AM
^^ Maybe he meant Lester/Buchholz? :D (talent like that)

That trade now makes perfect sense for the Yankees. Hank had it right in May , but by July he might be wrong again.

Bartolo Colon pitched a really nice game. Now maybe people will see what the fuss is about. If tomorrow was the trading deadline we could honestly ~rape~ another teams prospects for him.
If he keep throwing well. Or we just keep him and keep the pressure on teams with starting pitching. Our call , nice little problem to have.

swissle
07-01-2008, 02:27 AM
when is Clay Bucholtz coming back from his finger nail injury

RedSoxtober
07-01-2008, 07:53 AM
when is Clay Bucholtz coming back from his finger nail injury

No need to ask this question in every thread.