PDA

View Full Version : jose reyes or jimmy rollins



metsDaBest
02-20-2008, 11:04 AM
who is a better all around player jose reyes or jimmy rollins

x_notorious
02-20-2008, 02:50 PM
Better all around? Jimmy Rollins.

Better lead off hitter? Jose Reyes.

Pujolsfan91
02-20-2008, 04:37 PM
Rollins is a better allround player.

RedHeadsRule
02-20-2008, 05:34 PM
Rollins

kyubi256
02-20-2008, 05:55 PM
Rollins but i think Reyes will have the better career due to age

con_artist
02-20-2008, 07:28 PM
Rollins last year but i think reyes will be better

JAYZFAN9
02-20-2008, 08:25 PM
Rollins! now close the thread mets homers!

boston rocks
02-20-2008, 08:42 PM
j-roll

xander
02-20-2008, 09:41 PM
Rollins.

belliard is god
02-21-2008, 04:12 PM
jroll for now

The Reckoning
02-21-2008, 05:26 PM
Rollins until proven otherwise!

Kenny
02-21-2008, 05:28 PM
Going into last year everyone would of said Reyes. Of course people are going to say Rollins now.

Rollins other then the last couple of years was never considered that good. He has finally hit his prime at 28-29. Reyes hasn't yet.

Reyes will become the better player. No point of asking people who is better since Rollins clearly had the better year LAST year

con_artist
02-21-2008, 08:31 PM
Going into last year everyone would of said Reyes. Of course people are going to say Rollins now.

Rollins other then the last couple of years was never considered that good. He has finally hit his prime at 28-29. Reyes hasn't yet.

Reyes will become the better player. No point of asking people who is better since Rollins clearly had the better year LAST year

all true and i agree with u but others will probably find it hard to take ur points as coming from an unbiased standpoint when u have a jose reyes sig

SJ5382
02-21-2008, 09:18 PM
Rollins is better for now, but it's not being a homer to think Reyes will be the better player in his prime. Rollins has five years on him, and at age 24 Rollins was a very mediocre player.

JAYZFAN9
02-21-2008, 09:23 PM
Rollins is better for now, but it's not being a homer to think Reyes will be the better player in his prime. Rollins has five years on him, and at age 24 Rollins was a very mediocre player.

So kind of like Reyes now?

Kenny
02-21-2008, 11:33 PM
So kind of like Reyes now?


Reyes is average? Look at the numbers.. Please stop being a idiot

Humongo
02-22-2008, 03:10 AM
103 OPS+ last year. League average is 100. Pretty average if you ask me.

bosox3431
02-22-2008, 08:47 AM
Reyes is average? Look at the numbers.. Please stop being a idiot

What besides his speed/stealing isn't average? He has a career .284/.330/.426 line, which is average. I think they are both overrated myself, Jimmy Rollins typical is just as average as Reyes, now if Rollins has a year next year like he did this year, maybe this year wasnt a fluke. They have career OPS+ of 97 and 98, which is actually below avg.

JAYZFAN9
02-22-2008, 06:41 PM
Reyes is average? Look at the numbers.. Please stop being a idiot

Ok, ill stop being 'a idiot'

Problem is, theres no convincing you because its clear you're a homer. Cant take the facts. Like someone above me pointed out, he had a 103 OPS+ last year. Thats about as average as you can get.

OH WAIT! he can steal!! that changes everything:rolleyes:

AmazinMets
02-22-2008, 07:14 PM
.

AmazinMets
02-22-2008, 07:17 PM
So kind of like Reyes now?Wow just wow...Why don't you compare both of their first full 3 years in the league Rollins first 3 years is what you would call medicore.Maybe you should do some research next time so you don't look like a dumbass.

JAYZFAN9
02-22-2008, 07:36 PM
Wow just wow...Why don't you compare both of their first full 3 years in the league Rollins first 3 years is what you would call medicore.Maybe you should do some research next time so you don't look like a dumbass.

Wow just wow, I just DID look at the numbers and I just realized that Reyes is even MORE below average then I first thought! His career OPS+ is 97 , which actually makes him a BELOW average offensive player. Thanks for suggesting I do the research!
Sorry Mets homers, but I just need to spread the word on this. Its one of my pet peeves, seeing mets fans brag and brag about Jose Reyes like hes the next coming of Jeter or something. FACE IT, he isnt that good. He can run and defend no doubt, but he is -after 'checking the numbers' a BELOW AVERAGE hitter.

SJ5382
02-22-2008, 07:52 PM
Wow just wow, I just DID look at the numbers and I just realized that Reyes is even MORE below average then I first thought! His career OPS+ is 97 , which actually makes him a BELOW average offensive player. Thanks for suggesting I do the research!
Sorry Mets homers, but I just need to spread the word on this. Its one of my pet peeves, seeing mets fans brag and brag about Jose Reyes like hes the next coming of Jeter or something. FACE IT, he isnt that good. He can run and defend no doubt, but he is -after 'checking the numbers' a BELOW AVERAGE hitter.
Relax my fellow Mets fans. It must not be easy to constantly cheer for a team that cannot and will not ever finish above third place.

Give this poor clueless fan a break. No offense to the Jays fans who don't constantly talk out of their ***.

JAYZFAN9
02-23-2008, 12:42 PM
Relax my fellow Mets fans. It must not be easy to constantly cheer for a team that cannot and will not ever finish above third place.
Give this poor clueless fan a break. No offense to the Jays fans who don't constantly talk out of their ***.

Ive seen my team win 2 titles, how many has your team won in your lifetime?


So im clueless eh? Show me some backup and prove me wrong as to why my points are wrong, instead of insulting me... Problem is I used statistical evidence to prove my points while you met fans just spit off homer remarks about your own players.

SJ5382
02-23-2008, 04:48 PM
Ive seen my team win 2 titles, how many has your team won in your lifetime?


So im clueless eh? Show me some backup and prove me wrong as to why my points are wrong, instead of insulting me... Problem is I used statistical evidence to prove my points while you met fans just spit off homer remarks about your own players.
Except for the fact that OPS+ is the one and only statistic you use to prove your points.

And how about you back off judging our entire fanbase on what you have read in some homer posts. You have referred to all of us as homers about 4-5 times in this thread.

Your little OPS+ argument is extremely flawed. Using your logic, Reyes' OPS+ of 103 makes him an average player. That means that this is an average season:


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2006 32 SEA AL 161 695 110 224 20 9 9 49 45 2 49 71 .322 .370 .416 106 289 1 2 16 5 2 MVP-15,AS

You also continue to fail to mention Reyes' above-average defensive numbers, outstanding runs produced numbers, and outstanding stolen base numbers. Also, with your OPS+ nonsense you are comparing him to power-hitting outfielders and first basemen instead of leadoff men and fellow shortstops.

And you are even using his injury plagued seasons at the age of 20 and 21 to try to back up your point that he is mediocre as you completely ignore the fact that he is only 24 and has yet to reach his prime.

MeIsGiKn88
02-23-2008, 04:58 PM
Rollins had a great season last year, besides that he hasn't been that great. Reyes is the most exciting player in the MLB, and in past seasons reyes has been better, based on last year, rollins, otherwise reyes.


Yes I will admit I probably have some bais due to me being a met fan.

MeIsGiKn88
02-23-2008, 05:03 PM
Except for the fact that OPS+ is the one and only statistic you use to prove your points.

And how about you back off judging our entire fanbase on what you have read in some homer posts.

Your little OPS+ argument is extremely flawed. Using your logic, Reyes' OPS+ of 103 makes him an average player. That means that this is an average season:


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2006 32 SEA AL 161 695 110 224 20 9 9 49 45 2 49 71 .322 .370 .416 106 289 1 2 16 5 2 MVP-15,AS

You also continue to fail to mention Reyes' above-average defensive numbers, outstanding runs produced numbers, and outstanding stolen base numbers. Also, with your OPS+ nonsense you are comparing him to power-hitting outfielders and first baseman instead of leadoff men and fellow shortstops.

And you are even using his injury plagued seasons at the age of 20 and 21 to try to back up your point that he is mediocre as you completely ignore the fact that he is only 24 and has yet to reach his prime.

Well said. Give him 5-8 years I'm telling you he will be one of the best shortstops in the game.

JAYZFAN9
02-23-2008, 06:26 PM
Except for the fact that OPS+ is the one and only statistic you use to prove your points.

Your little OPS+ argument is extremely flawed. Using your logic, Reyes' OPS+ of 103 makes him an average player.

You also continue to fail to mention Reyes' above-average defensive numbers, outstanding runs produced numbers, and outstanding stolen base numbers. Also, with your OPS+ nonsense you are comparing him to power-hitting outfielders and first basemen instead of leadoff men and fellow shortstops.

And you are even using his injury plagued seasons at the age of 20 and 21 to try to back up your point that he is mediocre as you completely ignore the fact that he is only 24 and has yet to reach his prime.

OPS+ is the best stat to use because it takes into account park and league.
So lets look at Reyes' line from last year(the main stats)

.284 .354 .421 .775OPS Im sorry but that line is painfully average.

Now when Reyes does get on he is a terror on the basepaths no doubt and I never once said he wasnt a good defender because im well aware that he is.

BUT, I was just saying for all the met fans bragging like hes the next big thing offensively, hes not. ( to this point anyways.)

MetsFan28
02-23-2008, 08:49 PM
Rollins had one good year and is exiting his prime. Reyes still has 5 years before his prime. Reyes improved as a contact hitter and a more patient hitter a lot over the years. The more he gets on base, the more steals, the more steals, the more runs. Rollins is a better power hitter, that's about it. But don't expect less than 10 homers from Reyes. In a couple of years I can see even 20.

Kenny
02-23-2008, 09:46 PM
The guy hit 19 in 06. He can hit 20 this year and it wouldn't be a shocker.

Humongo
02-23-2008, 10:11 PM
HR aren't that important.

MetsFan28
02-23-2008, 10:17 PM
The guy hit 19 in 06. He can hit 20 this year and it wouldn't be a shocker.

Yea but he slowed down last year. And for all of you who say the best SS in baseball is decent, I guess Hanley, J-Roll, Miggy, DJ, Michael Young, Tulo, Furcal, and Renteria all suck.

Humongo
02-23-2008, 11:46 PM
Reyes isn't the best SS in baseball. Not even close. At this point, he's an average offensive player who steals alot of bases.

Can Met's fans please give reasoning as to why he's the alledged "best SS in baseball"? I'd really like to see what stats could possibly back that up.

YankeeFan28
02-23-2008, 11:50 PM
Reyes isn't the best SS in baseball. Not even close. At this point, he's an average offensive player who steals alot of bases.

Can Met's fans please give reasoning as to why he's the alledged "best SS in baseball"? I'd really like to see what stats could possibly back that up.

Apparently steals make up for the fact that he's average at the plate.

But that doesn't mean he won't be good. Hell he's only 24 and has done more then Rollins has at the same age. He's ahead of Rollins' curve. But till he proves it consistently, he's not the best. Mets fans are just jumping the gun, which is understandable.

MetsFan28
02-24-2008, 12:44 AM
He's definatley arguably the best. IMO, the best. I wouldn't give him up for any other SS in baseball.

SJ5382
02-24-2008, 07:29 PM
I don't think he is the best and I never said that. I do think he is above average when comparing him to other shortstops and leadoff men in the game.

hurdler388
02-25-2008, 06:52 PM
Rollins had one good year and is exiting his prime. Reyes still has 5 years before his prime. Reyes improved as a contact hitter and a more patient hitter a lot over the years. The more he gets on base, the more steals, the more steals, the more runs. Rollins is a better power hitter, that's about it. But don't expect less than 10 homers from Reyes. In a couple of years I can see even 20.

If we are going off of right now, not future potential, not only does rollins have more power, he was a better leadoff hitter last year (i'll back it up with stats if you want) and just as good defensively.

SJ5382
02-25-2008, 07:00 PM
If we are going off of right now, not future potential, not only does rollins have more power, he was a better leadoff hitter last year (i'll back it up with stats if you want) and just as good defensively.
Agreed, but it is very reasonable to expect Reyes' be just as good, if not better, in five years. Oh, and playing in CBP instead of Shea would not hurt.:rolleyes:

hurdler388
02-25-2008, 07:19 PM
Agreed, but it is very reasonable to expect Reyes' be just as good, if not better, in five years. Oh, and playing in CBP instead of Shea would not hurt.:rolleyes:

go look at rollins splits last year. pretty close home vs away. CBP is not the crazy hitters park that people think. its got short walls so its better for home runs, but the phills as a team only scored 9 more runs at home than on the road last year. i think reyes has a bright future, right now i'd take rollins though. from what i see he is a better clubhouse guy also.

SJ5382
02-25-2008, 08:29 PM
go look at rollins splits last year. pretty close home vs away. CBP is not the crazy hitters park that people think. its got short walls so its better for home runs, but the phills as a team only scored 9 more runs at home than on the road last year. i think reyes has a bright future, right now i'd take rollins though. from what i see he is a better clubhouse guy also.
Yes, CBP is just as much of a hitter's park as everyone thinks. Rollins slugged 49 points higher at CBP and 18 of his 30 HR's were hit there. Jose plays in one of the best pitcher's parks in baseball.

For what it's worth, Reyes has a .961 OPS with 7 HR in 133 AB's at CBP.

Humongo
02-26-2008, 01:56 AM
Jose was better at home last year, so that argument's out the window.

Rollins Away 2007 - .293/.352/.507
Reyes Away 2007 - .274/.355/.409

In a few years Reyes may be better than Rollins, but as of now, it's by and far Rollins.

timets93
03-02-2008, 02:08 PM
Right now, Rollins. Overall, Reyes.

hurdler388
03-02-2008, 09:32 PM
Jose was better at home last year, so that argument's out the window.

Rollins Away 2007 - .293/.352/.507
Reyes Away 2007 - .274/.355/.409

In a few years Reyes may be better than Rollins, but as of now, it's by and far Rollins.

thank you. well said. and i do agree in a few years in may be reyes but it never stops amazing me how mets fans see through the stats and say reyes is better right now.

SEATTLEredsox
03-03-2008, 12:20 AM
everyone is being so shortsighted...if you could look back at more than just last year's stats, reyes had a better OPS than rollins (.841 to .812) and he has had 20 more stolen bases than the next closest player in MLB the last two years. He's an excellent fielder with a great arm, too. Right now, I think they are about even (both are overrated imo), but reyes is still only 24. i think reyes will have a far better career

NY15METS2006
03-03-2008, 06:28 PM
What has been so impressive of Jimmy Rollins before last year?????

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+--
2000 21 PHI NL 14 53 5 17 1 1 0 5 3 0 2 7 .321 .345 .377 83 20 0 0 0 0 0
2001 22 PHI NL 158 656 97 180 29 12 14 54 46 8 48 108 .274 .323 .419 92 275 9 5 2 2 5 MVP-17,RoY-3,AS
2002 23 PHI NL 154 637 82 156 33 10 11 60 31 13 54 103 .245 .306 .380 85 242 6 4 3 4 14 AS
2003 24 PHI NL 156 628 85 165 42 6 8 62 20 12 54 113 .263 .320 .387 90 243 5 2 4 0 9
2004 25 PHI NL 154 657 119 190 43 12 14 73 30 9 57 73 .289 .348 .455 102 299 6 2 3 3 4 MVP-30
2005 26 PHI NL 158 677 115 196 38 11 12 54 41 6 47 71 .290 .338 .431 97 292 2 2 8 4 9 MVP-10,AS
2006 27 PHI NL 158 689 127 191 45 9 25 83 36 4 57 80 .277 .334 .478 101 329 0 7 2 5 12 MVP-21
2007 28 PHI NL 162 716 139 212 38 20 30 94 41 6 49 85 .296 .344 .531 118 380 0 6 5 7 11 SS,MVP-1
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+
8 Seasons 1114 4713 769 1307 269 81 114 485 248 58 368 640 .277 .331 .441 98 2080 28 28 27 25 64
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+
162 Game Avg 685 112 190 39 12 17 71 36 8 54 93 .277 .331 .441 98 302 4 4 4 4 9
Career High 162 716 139 212 45 20 30 94 46 13 57 113 .296 .348 .531 118 380 9 7 8 7 14

He has done nothing impressive to me other than the year he had this year. Look at when Rollins batting statistics started to move up in just about every category.....2004....hmmmmm what a coincidence...Didnt The Phillies move into Citizens Bank Park aka the(The Major League T-Ball Park) that year? Talk about Citizens Bank Park being an advantage for the Phillies!!!.. Dont give me any of that talk that it took Rollins a couple of years to adjust from .250 avg to .290 because Reyes has averaged .284 in his first 4 years.

papipapsmanny
03-03-2008, 07:47 PM
rollins, reyes isnt even a top 5 SS at this point, let alone the best

hurdler388
03-04-2008, 01:18 AM
What has been so impressive of Jimmy Rollins before last year?????

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+--
2000 21 PHI NL 14 53 5 17 1 1 0 5 3 0 2 7 .321 .345 .377 83 20 0 0 0 0 0
2001 22 PHI NL 158 656 97 180 29 12 14 54 46 8 48 108 .274 .323 .419 92 275 9 5 2 2 5 MVP-17,RoY-3,AS
2002 23 PHI NL 154 637 82 156 33 10 11 60 31 13 54 103 .245 .306 .380 85 242 6 4 3 4 14 AS
2003 24 PHI NL 156 628 85 165 42 6 8 62 20 12 54 113 .263 .320 .387 90 243 5 2 4 0 9
2004 25 PHI NL 154 657 119 190 43 12 14 73 30 9 57 73 .289 .348 .455 102 299 6 2 3 3 4 MVP-30
2005 26 PHI NL 158 677 115 196 38 11 12 54 41 6 47 71 .290 .338 .431 97 292 2 2 8 4 9 MVP-10,AS
2006 27 PHI NL 158 689 127 191 45 9 25 83 36 4 57 80 .277 .334 .478 101 329 0 7 2 5 12 MVP-21
2007 28 PHI NL 162 716 139 212 38 20 30 94 41 6 49 85 .296 .344 .531 118 380 0 6 5 7 11 SS,MVP-1
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+
8 Seasons 1114 4713 769 1307 269 81 114 485 248 58 368 640 .277 .331 .441 98 2080 28 28 27 25 64
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+
162 Game Avg 685 112 190 39 12 17 71 36 8 54 93 .277 .331 .441 98 302 4 4 4 4 9
Career High 162 716 139 212 45 20 30 94 46 13 57 113 .296 .348 .531 118 380 9 7 8 7 14

He has done nothing impressive to me other than the year he had this year. Look at when Rollins batting statistics started to move up in just about every category.....2004....hmmmmm what a coincidence...Didnt The Phillies move into Citizens Bank Park aka the(The Major League T-Ball Park) that year? Talk about Citizens Bank Park being an advantage for the Phillies!!!.. Dont give me any of that talk that it took Rollins a couple of years to adjust from .250 avg to .290 because Reyes has averaged .284 in his first 4 years.

well, rollins hit quite a bit better on the road then reyes did last year. so your whole CBP arguement is gone. and are you trying to say rollins isn't a star because he didn't start out as one? there are plenty of guys who don't become starts until their late 20s. who cares if reyes was better in his first 3 years than rollins. he still has never had a year like rollins did last year. In 3 years, reyes may be better. but right now i'm taking rollins for several reasons.

hurdler388
03-04-2008, 01:24 AM
and actually, thinking back, i'd just assume play you guys in NY. pretty sure we swept you guys twice there last year.

Faithdies
03-04-2008, 10:08 PM
Why does everyone make such a big deal out of Reyes Stolen Bases. He got picked off more than A QUARTER OF THE TIME! He walked 77 times. He had 191 hits. Subtract his homeruns and triples which is 24 combined. That is 167 times on base when he could possibly steal. Plus walks is 244 times. He stole 99 TIMES! Basicaly 1/2 the time on base he was on base.

Compare that to Victorino who had around the same average and HR's in way less plate appearances and he only stole 1/3 of the time and had 37 SB's and only got thrown out 4 times.

So can we please stop talking about the great base stealing threat that is Jose Reyes.

Faithdies
03-04-2008, 10:19 PM
To add to that:

In 225 LESS plate appearances than Jose Reyes he had 11 less RBI's, way less steals and the same amount of HR's.

After viewing it this way is Victorino the best outfielder EVA!!!111!

I mean, Jose had 50% more PA's with barely better numbers. Also, don't give me leadoff because Shane Bats second.

the MASTER
03-09-2008, 07:55 PM
Agreed, but it is very reasonable to expect Reyes' be just as good, if not better, in five years. Oh, and playing in CBP instead of Shea would not hurt.:rolleyes:

CBP isnt the park mets fans always talk about and even if it was how come you cant beat the phils there the phillies have had you number in head to head matchups the last two years, CBP is a smaller park but even so rollins had over double the amount of triples as jose, so arguing the park is stupid, heres how i see it...

hitting: rollins
defense: split, similar numbers
baserunning: ROLLINS, jose gets thrown out a third of the time great he had a bunch of steals but what good are they if he gets thrown out trying to steal third right after, rollins was a clutch baserunner at the end of the season last year, id rather have rollins on base because he is a smarter baserunner IMO

overall definately rollins, although reyes has a bright future i dont think he will ever be a great offensive player and needs to stop gettin thrown out so much and then his steals would be much more important, reyes actually reminds me of rollins when he was younger with the baserunning and the defense

SJ5382
03-09-2008, 10:30 PM
CBP isnt the park mets fans always talk about and even if it was how come you cant beat the phils there the phillies have had you number in head to head matchups the last two years, CBP is a smaller park but even so rollins had over double the amount of triples as jose, so arguing the park is stupid, heres how i see it...

CBP isn't the park Mets fans always talk about? Do you want to justify that instead of spitting out that bull ****?

What do the head to head matchups have to do with anything? Nothing.

The Mets won 11 of 19 games against the Phillies in 2006, so you did not have our number at all that year. Last year you clearly did as we were handing you the division, but it was ONE year.

As for stolen bases, Rollins had a 87% SB% compared to Reyes' 78%. I will take the 37 extra SB's that Reyes had over the 9% gap in percentages.

hurdler388
03-09-2008, 10:35 PM
CBP isn't the park Mets fans always talk about? Do you want to justify that instead of spitting out that bull ****?

What do the head to head matchups have to do with anything? Nothing.

The Mets won 11 of 19 games against the Phillies in 2006, so you did not have our number at all that year. Last year you clearly did as we were handing you the division, but it was ONE year.

As for stolen bases, Rollins had a 87% SB% compared to Reyes' 78%. I will take the 37 extra SB's that Reyes had over the 9% gap in percentages.

yeah, but i'd take rollins extra base hits over reyes' steals any day.

Kenny
07-31-2008, 03:14 AM
I just laugh reading some of these posts before the year.

Reyes is playing like a MVP.

ThatTomGuy
07-31-2008, 10:52 AM
Hmmm.

I'd say I think Rollins is stronger defensively, and a better lead-off man. Reyes steals too often, at least at the moment, and once he perfects his method, he'll be uncatchable.

Reyes has his youth over Rollins, however. Reyes is playing like a beast this year, but he'll have to keep it up over several years, and play more consistently (i.e. September 2007).

Rollins in the short term, Reyes in the long term.

Kenny
07-31-2008, 05:25 PM
Hmmm.

I'd say I think Rollins is stronger defensively, and a better lead-off man. Reyes steals too often, at least at the moment, and once he perfects his method, he'll be uncatchable.

Reyes has his youth over Rollins, however. Reyes is playing like a beast this year, but he'll have to keep it up over several years, and play more consistently (i.e. September 2007).

Rollins in the short term, Reyes in the long term.

Rollins is back to his usuall self. Before last year he never came close to a season like that. Rollins and Reyes are very close defensively and Rollins a better lead off man is a joke. The guys OBP in a MVP season was bad.

ritz
07-31-2008, 08:28 PM
Rollins is a great player, but Reyes puts up great numbers. All of his numbers are better than Jimmy's this year GRANTED he has had over 100 more ABs. I'm a Mets fan through and through, but there's no denying Rollins' talent.

belliard is god
07-31-2008, 09:00 PM
ill take reyes

sanfranfan1210
07-31-2008, 10:25 PM
Rollins

cambovenzi
08-01-2008, 10:50 AM
funny hows threads like these change.
reyes' OPS is 86 points higher right now. and thats out of the leadoff spot.

viktor06
08-01-2008, 10:55 AM
It's Reyes now, by far.

stlworldchamps
08-01-2008, 01:40 PM
right now rollins, even though reyes will turn out better

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e36/tlastoria/barton.jpg
play for the fans

ShinobiNYC
08-01-2008, 03:34 PM
right now rollins, even though reyes will turn out better

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e36/tlastoria/barton.jpg
play for the fans

Reyes: 129 OPS+ this year
Rollins: 99 OPS+ this year

You sure?

AntiG
08-01-2008, 03:48 PM
It's Reyes now, by far.

I wouldn't say by far. Reyes is the best, but Rollins is not far behind. But they certainly are the best shortstops in baseball, by far.

BigEric
08-01-2008, 04:18 PM
Rollins over Reyes. Ramirez over both!

Sick Of It All
08-01-2008, 04:44 PM
Rollins over Reyes. Ramirez over both!

I agree, but this year they are a bit more even specially if you take theoir defense into the equation.


...but offensive 142 OPS+ for Hanley is still better than 129 OPS+ for Reyes.

Kenny
08-01-2008, 04:46 PM
I agree, but this year they are a bit more even specially if you take theoir defense into the equation.


...but offensive 142 OPS+ for Hanley is still better than 129 OPS+ for Reyes.

OPS is for power hitters. Adam Dunn must be one of the best players in baseball then.

JAYZFAN9
08-01-2008, 05:04 PM
OPS is for power hitters. Adam Dunn must be one of the best players in baseball then.

Umm yes as a matter of fact he is (offensively of course)

Kenny
08-01-2008, 05:19 PM
Umm yes as a matter of fact he is (offensively of course)

The guy can hit 40 homeruns in the middle of the lineup and still fail to knock in 100 runs. He bats .230 and strikes out 190 times. :rolleyes:

JAYZFAN9
08-01-2008, 05:56 PM
The guy can hit 40 homeruns in the middle of the lineup and still fail to knock in 100 runs. He bats .230 and strikes out 190 times. :rolleyes:

This post shows your lack of knowledge about baseball. You just pointed out the most insignificant things to look for in a baseball player. RBIS? Team dependent stat. Batting Average? very useless stat. OBP+ Slugging (OPS) is the single most useful stat to use when comparing offensive abilities. And Adam Dunn always has a great OPS, thus the reason why is he considered by most people who know a thing or two about baseball one of the best offensive players out there.

YankeeFan28
08-01-2008, 06:00 PM
OPS is for power hitters. Adam Dunn must be one of the best players in baseball then.

OPS is not for power hitters. It's correlates with runs scored more then any other stat. When comparing players, the rate the hit at is more of a favorable comparison then stats that are dependent on the team.

Although Dunn isn't the best player in baseball since there are players with higher OPS+'s.

ShinobiNYC
08-01-2008, 06:14 PM
All I know is that Reyes > Rollins this season. And probably beyond it.

Kenny
08-01-2008, 06:30 PM
:rolleyes:
This post shows your lack of knowledge about baseball. You just pointed out the most insignificant things to look for in a baseball player. RBIS? Team dependent stat. Batting Average? very useless stat. OBP+ Slugging (OPS) is the single most useful stat to use when comparing offensive abilities. And Adam Dunn always has a great OPS, thus the reason why is he considered by most people who know a thing or two about baseball one of the best offensive players out there.

And whats his batting average with RISP. .217 CAREER with RISP two out. The guy is a swinging for the fences at all times. He doesnt know how to shorten his swing. Batting average means nothing? What a ridicoulous thing to say, oh yeah for all the walks he gets Adam Dunn doesnt come around to score. I guess runs means nothing because it's a "team" stat. He cant field a lick either.

Nobody wanted him at the deadline. I wonder why.

JAYZFAN9
08-02-2008, 12:06 AM
:rolleyes:

And whats his batting average with RISP. .217 CAREER with RISP two out. The guy is a swinging for the fences at all times. He doesnt know how to shorten his swing. Batting average means nothing? What a ridicoulous thing to say, oh yeah for all the walks he gets Adam Dunn doesnt come around to score. I guess runs means nothing because it's a "team" stat. He cant field a lick either.

Nobody wanted him at the deadline. I wonder why.

Take your 'batting avg. is more important than OPS' argument to the MLB forum and get laughed right outta there if you dont believe me

Seamhead
08-02-2008, 12:55 AM
:rolleyes:

And whats his batting average with RISP. .217 CAREER with RISP two out. The guy is a swinging for the fences at all times. He doesnt know how to shorten his swing. Batting average means nothing? What a ridicoulous thing to say, oh yeah for all the walks he gets Adam Dunn doesnt come around to score. I guess runs means nothing because it's a "team" stat. He cant field a lick either.

Nobody wanted him at the deadline. I wonder why.

He's got a career .892 OPS with RISP, so....

If you want to continue to look at RBIs, let's just look at how he fairs in terms of RBI per PA with RISP and compare him to other top notch players:

Dunn: .30
A-Rod: .41
Man-Ram (he's considered a top notch "RBI Man", w/e the **** that means): .40

Now, that's a differential of .10 per plate appearance. Manny averages about 183.4 PA with RISP in a season, so say they average the same amount of PA w/RISP in a season, the differential would be 18 RBIs. Bleh.

And that's with me assuming RBIs are a good statistic.

And batting average is pretty ******.

I'm not a huge fan of OPS/OPS+, though the latter is obviously superior, as it counts a point of OBP more than a point of slugging %(along with other points), which is not true, but they're good statistics for a quick and dirty look. If you want a superior statistic, read about wOBA:

http://www.insidethebook.com/woba.shtml

It's basically linear weights(which are based on empirical data) changed to fit the scale of OBP. Read about linear weights and other run estimators in this very good 3 part series:

http://www.tangotiger.net/runscreated.html

http://www.tangotiger.net/rc2.html

http://www.tangotiger.net/rc3.html

EDIT: And this topic is way off topic. Feel free to move this to the OPS and other Moneyball statistics thread.

SJ5382
08-02-2008, 01:25 PM
So JAYZFAN9, Reyes is still an average offensive player right?

"I'd rather have Khalile Greene." :rolleyes:

JAYZFAN9
08-02-2008, 02:40 PM
So JAYZFAN9, Reyes is still an average offensive player right?

"I'd rather have Khalile Greene." :rolleyes:

lol gotta love when someone either starts a new thread/bumps an old one to prove their point when they know damn well what the answer is ... btw I have made no comment on Reyes in this thread, I was arguing with some other Mets homer. ( he thinks BA is more important then OPS) LOL

SJ5382
08-02-2008, 06:05 PM
lol gotta love when someone either starts a new thread/bumps an old one to prove their point when they know damn well what the answer is ... btw I have made no comment on Reyes in this thread, I was arguing with some other Mets homer. ( he thinks BA is more important then OPS) LOL
I am not the one who bumped this thread up...

SJ5382
08-02-2008, 06:09 PM
Back on topic, Reyes's current OPS+ is 11 points higher than Rollins's was in his MVP season...that says it all about Citizens Bank Park since Reyes will definitely not be finishing with anything close to 30 HR's.

Kenny
08-02-2008, 06:10 PM
lol gotta love when someone either starts a new thread/bumps an old one to prove their point when they know damn well what the answer is ... btw I have made no comment on Reyes in this thread, I was arguing with some other Mets homer. ( he thinks BA is more important then OPS) LOL

So last season you rather have Ryan Garko over Ichiro? OPS is a power hitters stat. A guy like Ichiro can bat over .350 score a ton of runs, steal bases, do everything well but his OPS will not be high.

Kenny
08-02-2008, 06:13 PM
Last season I guess you rather have Rowand over Rollins since his OPS was higher in Rollins MVP year.

Seamhead
08-02-2008, 09:30 PM
Last season I guess you rather have Rowand over Rollins since his OPS was higher in Rollins MVP year.

You're taking this **** way out of context. When it comes to comparing hitters, OPS is a better statistic than batting average. The reasons you'd rather have Rollins instead of Howard is because of his fielding, baserunning, and the fact that he plays a premium defensive position. Not because he's a better hitter than Howard, which he is not. I'd rather have Howard the hitter than Rollins the hitter.

Oh yeah, and Rollins didn't deserve the MVP last season, so please don't bring that up.

And last year Ichiro had a better OPS+ than Garko, so I have no idea there....

Humongo
08-03-2008, 04:13 AM
So JAYZFAN9, Reyes is still an average offensive player right?

"I'd rather have Khalile Greene." :rolleyes:

:hide: