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View Full Version : Rod Carew vs. Joe Morgan



SportFan4Life
01-21-2008, 05:06 PM
Joe Morgan Stats- http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/morgajo02.shtml

Rob Carew Stats- http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/carewro01.shtml

Who do you think was the better second basemen?

One Nut Kruk
01-21-2008, 05:13 PM
Rod Carew by miles.

xander
01-21-2008, 05:29 PM
I like Morgan, but Carew had a BA .60 times higher than Morgan.

nyyfan4life
01-21-2008, 06:12 PM
Carew probbably. he was an amazing hitter

Spider Pig
01-21-2008, 07:01 PM
I'll take ROD. Amazing hitter and he is not annoying like Joe Morgan.

babalu69
01-21-2008, 07:03 PM
Carew better hitter and was on the angels.

xander
01-21-2008, 07:06 PM
Morgan was the better fielder though, but definitely Carew

bagwell368
11-13-2008, 10:08 AM
wow, you guys get this out of a book or something? did anyone ever see both play? Carew was great at hitting the ball. But Morgan worked a lot more walks, and had a lot more power. Morgan also remained at 2B his whole long career (minus 38 games at 4 other positions) . Carew played more games at 1B (where his offense was much less impressive by comparison) then 2B.

Morgan had a low BA on Houston because it was a terrible hitters park and league at the time, looks at OPS+, not raw stats for those years.

Carew .328/.393/.429 - 131 OPS+ - 110th all time MVP shares - 0 GG's - 353/187 SB/CS
Morgan .271/.392/.466 - 132 OPS+ - 31st all time MVP shares - 5 GG's - 689/162 SB/CS

Better "hitter for BA" obviously Carew. Better player and better 2B - Morgan by a mile. And Morgan of course was one of the best base stealers of all time - both in count, and percentage. Carew was talented at swiping Home, which is notable, but had a terrible first step, even though he could run like crazy, so he was coached to death, and always seen as a disapointment at stealing 2B. Then the GG's - 5 of them for Morgan, not a sniff of one for Carew who was below average at 2B.

In fact Bill James has Morgan as the #1 2B all time, and #15 player of all time as of 2001.

Carew is listed at #9 2B - 65th all time with a terse write up about his poor footwork, judgment on bang bang plays and arm. He also says Carew's offense is overrated due to his high BA, and mentioning that Killebrew was a bettter hitter.

Carew is hardly junk, but to seriously compare him to Morgan and find Carew better means you are not looking at the whole picture. In their own time, Morgan was seen as a more valuable player.

Peak you ask?

Morgan's best 5: 187, 169, 159, 154, 149
Carew's best 5: 178, 157, 150, 148, 144

No help there.....

Only as an unprepared and annoying announcer does he not rank....

07MVPPatBurrell
11-13-2008, 10:51 AM
he is not annoying like Joe Morgan.

that has a lot to do with who was the better 2B

flips333
11-13-2008, 01:01 PM
I hate joe morgan... hate hate hate...and I love rod carew... But Rod carew wasn't really a 2b his whole career... In their prime I take carew. But as a 2b carew couldn't hack it when he lost his speed. So Carew was a better player and morgan was a better 2b

iam brett favre
11-13-2008, 02:50 PM
if morgan hit more HR's, i'd say him. obviously he hit much more than carew, but he didnt hit enough to make you say, ok we can look past the fact that morgan only had a .271 average, and carew had a .328 average. in 3 less seasons, carew also had about 500 more hits than morgan. im not taking anything away from joe morgan, i am just saying, in my opinion at least, carew is better.

quiksilver2491
11-13-2008, 03:29 PM
Since when has batting average and hits determined the better player?

The better player was Joe Morgan, ****ty anouncer, one hell of a ball player.

C1Bman88
11-13-2008, 04:04 PM
As a player, Joe Morgan. As an announcer, I'd take Rod Carew.

todu82
11-13-2008, 05:46 PM
Rod Carew.

bagwell368
11-13-2008, 08:05 PM
if morgan hit more HR's, i'd say him. obviously he hit much more than carew, but he didnt hit enough to make you say, ok we can look past the fact that morgan only had a .271 average, and carew had a .328 average. in 3 less seasons, carew also had about 500 more hits than morgan. im not taking anything away from joe morgan, i am just saying, in my opinion at least, carew is better.

Again, look at the BA's in the 60's. Carew debuted in what '67, and the offense started to go up for real in '69. Morgan played in that horrible park for more then 1/3 of his career, he probably lost 35-70 HR's there.

OBP and OPS+ as we hopefully all know now are much more important then BA, and Morgan had higher marks in both then Carew. He was also a better defensive player by a good deal, a better base runner by a good deal and had more power - so what's the problem? He also had a higher peak as I pointed out.

500 more hits? Yeah so? Morgan had 1865 BB's - 847 more then Carew.

Also Morgan was a 6.8 RC/G player to Carew's 6.2 - a notable difference.

Carew BtRns 418 BtWin 41.9
Morgan BtRns 461.9 BtWin 46.9

I adjusted Morgan's figure down for the difference in PA's. Morgan has 10% higher batted runs. Adjusted Batting Runs - This is the linear weights method pioneered by Pete Palmer. It is a bit more accurate than Runs Created and also handles differing offensive environments more easily. It is adjusted to the park and league the player played in. It is also relative to league average, so negative values mean they were below average for the league.

Again Morgan is about 10% stronger BtWins - Another Pete Palmer tool, this measures the number of wins a player added relative to the league average hitter.

OWP - offensive winning percentage:

Carew .669
Morgan .702

Every SABRmatrician and almost everybody that saw these guys play will tell you Morgan was better - period. One generally discounted stat should make no difference compared to the avalanche of other facts against Carew when compared to Morgan.

Not only is Morgan the best 2B of my lifetime, according to James he is the best 2B of all time. Biggio for crissakes is better then Carew, and so is Sandberg.

Carew was a poor fielder - unable to master the footwork, or turning of DP's, bad judgement under pressure, and he had a crap arm. As a 1B his offensive value goes down vs. replacement players, and he played more games at 1B then 2B.

07MVPPatBurrell
11-13-2008, 08:46 PM
morgan had a couple pujols like OPS+'s in there. also 2 mvp

Matt-the-great
11-13-2008, 08:49 PM
Joe Morgan is also a good baseball colour-commentator.....i think the white guy is the play-by-play guy anyway.......

drty snchz
11-17-2008, 10:51 PM
morgan

championmets
11-20-2008, 12:38 AM
carews swing was sick though, idk if anyone swung the bat as fast as he did

bagwell368
11-20-2008, 09:35 PM
carews swing was sick though, idk if anyone swung the bat as fast as he did

McGwire, Bagwell, Sheffied and Manny all swing a good deal harder.

Doesn't matter. Morgan beats Carew in every way, except of course batting average which is a vastly overrated stat.

Rings, SLG, OBP, OPS+, RC/G, GG, SB's, SB/CS ratio. Name the stat - Morgan pounds Carew.

asufan55
11-21-2008, 10:41 PM
I think Carew is better

bagwell368
11-22-2008, 01:13 PM
I think Carew is better

You do? Prove it? Can't be done can it? One stat is what you have. Every other stat, post season honor, defense, base running, rings, OBP, RC/G, HR, SLG - all of it on Morgan's side - mostly by quite a bit, not just a little.

flips333
11-22-2008, 02:20 PM
You do? Prove it? Can't be done can it? One stat is what you have. Every other stat, post season honor, defense, base running, rings, OBP, RC/G, HR, SLG - all of it on Morgan's side - mostly by quite a bit, not just a little.

Yeah but stats can be manipulated. Morgan had more power but was worse in the field. And was surrounded by the best hitters in the league. When you have Bench, Rose, perez, griffy foster, you are going to drive in and score alot of runs. Carew was not exactly surrounded by much.

And most importantly Morgan was and is an *******.

flips333
11-22-2008, 02:28 PM
McGwire, Bagwell, Sheffied and Manny all swing a good deal harder.

Doesn't matter. Morgan beats Carew in every way, except of course batting average which is a vastly overrated stat.

Rings, SLG, OBP, OPS+, RC/G, GG, SB's, SB/CS ratio. Name the stat - Morgan pounds Carew.

Ummmmmmmmm Hard and fast are not the same thing my friend in swings. Batting average doesn't matter but it is an important stat when you look at how good a player was.

And his OBP is slightly lower which is kind of sad considering he had tony Perez or Bench hitting behind him for a good portion of his career. (and BTW you take Cincy out of the picture when he was surrounded by those other players and Joe morgan could only beat Carew in the power department. Essentialy if he'd been on the twins all those years he was on the reds this would be a much diff argument. power vs. finesse)

Oh and joe morgan is an *******.

J-Up= Franchise
11-22-2008, 05:33 PM
Morgan because I love that guy on ESPN.

bagwell368
11-24-2008, 10:29 AM
Yeah but stats can be manipulated. Morgan had more power but was worse in the field. And was surrounded by the best hitters in the league. When you have Bench, Rose, perez, griffy foster, you are going to drive in and score alot of runs. Carew was not exactly surrounded by much.

And most importantly Morgan was and is an *******.

what are you talking about? Show me one single defensive stat or writer that ever said Carew was better in the field then Morgan. Carews career stats look good because he played less than half of his career at 2B, and about 40% as many games as Morgan, while Morgan played until deep into his decline at age 40.

Morgan led off and also batted 3rd in the heyday of the Red Machine which helped. But he also played the 1st 9 years (about 42% of his career) in one of the worst hitters parks ever (Dome) with the most stingy run env since 1920. And when you adjust his stats, he was nearly as productive there then Carew was in his first nine years (look at the adjusted slash at BR, his OBP and SLG were higher than Carew). But in Carew's last 10 years he only had 4 real good years. In Morgan's last 13 he had 7.

Carew early had: Oliva, Killebrew
later Braun, Hisle, Bostock
then Grich, DeCinces, Downing, Lynn, Baylor

some of his later teams stunk, like Morgan's earlier and late teams, but for both it was essentially bad pitching and not bad line-ups.

Then of course there is the baserunning which Morgan wins easily. 689 SB against 162 CS vs. 352 SB against 187 CS. 25 more CS for Carew then Morgan, but Morgan had 347 MORE steals then Carew. Convincing I would say.

5 GG's for Morgan - well above average range, above average in errors compared to other 2B. Carew sadly for him was so weak at 2B (couldn't throw, bad footwork) that he played more games at 1B then 2B. Using contemporary notions of comparing players vs. other players at their positions - Carew was slightly above average at his career for 1B (in some bad years below), whereas Morgan was mammothly ahead of 2B he played against almost every single season.

Then there is career length/results. Morgan played longer, won more hardware - rings and MVP's - what is the argument? Batting average? All this for one stat by you guys? One discredited stat?

Here is the final kicker. How many of you guys actually saw both play - and both play live?? I did. Morgan had a much larger impact on a given game then Carew. Carew was obviously at artisan with the bat. If the title said "best striker" of pitched ball - Carew wins. but it says "Rod Carew vs. Joe Morgan" which means everything including entrails. And on that basis, Carew is deep in the shadow thrown by Morgan. Anyone that says different is repeating what they read or what their father told them. It's not true, and it's never going to be true.

bagwell368
01-23-2013, 03:11 PM
Ahhhh a great old thread.

More on Carew vs Morgan:

Morgan played 2527 games at 2B
Carew played 1130 games at 2B (and played 1184 games at 1B)

Adjusted slash (park and era adjustments):

Morgan: .285/.408/.447

Carew: .340/.406/.443

Close.

Peak 10 yr (any order) rWin Shares:


Morgan Carew

10.8 09.5
09.5 07.5
09.3 07.2
09.1 06.7
08.4 06.5
05.6 05.2
05.4 05.0
05.2 04.6
04.9 04.5
04.8 03.5

So, at their best, Morgan was in a higher echelon than Carew

Morgan 97.1 rWAR (20th all time -4th JAWS 2B) > 76.6 for Carew (38th all time - 6th JAWS)

Carew was great at stealing home, but Morgan crushed him as he has almost every base runner all time:

JM 689 SB w/ 162 CS
vs.
RC 352 SB w/ 187 CS

BR era/park Adjusted HR: JM: 291 vs 95 for Carew (with almost 1200 games at 1B in his career - ouch)

3.04 career MVP shares for Morgan > 1.8 for Carew

Carew 0-4 in post season series with a slash of: .220/.291/.300 w/ 2 SB 2 CS in 14 games

Morgan 6-5 in post season series with a slash of .182/.323/.348 w/ 15 SB 2 CS in 50 games

dodgerdave
01-23-2013, 04:36 PM
If we're talking about 1972-1977 Joe Morgan, then it's a no-brainer. You pick Joe Morgan. Otherwise, give me Carew.

bagwell368
01-23-2013, 09:26 PM
If we're talking about 1972-1977 Joe Morgan, then it's a no-brainer. You pick Joe Morgan. Otherwise, give me Carew.


I'm talking career, and I saw them both - saw Morgan first in 1965 and Carew as a rookie. Morgan is simply better than Carew.

Jeffy25
01-23-2013, 11:21 PM
Well this poll is rather hilarious 5 years later.

Carew by miles? lol!

bagwell368
01-24-2013, 05:47 AM
Well this poll is rather hilarious 5 years later.

Carew by miles? lol!

I know... your comments on the #1 SP poll was a good part of the reason I dug it up.