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ink
11-25-2007, 06:04 PM
I'd like to hear what people think about Andrea Bargnani's future at C. I think we all agree that one of the things that is putting a lot of pressure on the team is the need for both Bosh and Bargnani to begin to dominate in the low post. Bosh is by far the more seasoned pro, and he has had to play some C along the way for the size-challenged Raps of the past few years, so we have an idea of what he is able to do. And he's definitely stepping up right now. But Bargnani continues to look lost out there.

I know they're not the same type of PF but it is quite clear that if Bargs is going to become a C, it will be by playing against many of his natural instincts. The game that brought him to the NBA is a perimeter, 3 point shooting game with some amazing passing skills and an ability to drive the lane. The fantastic rookie we saw last year played mostly behind Bosh at the 4. That's where we saw his best work this preseason too.

The player he's most often compared to, rightly or wrongly, is about the same weight and has about 1 1/2 " on Bargs. And the Mavericks have surrounded Nowitzki with two big (265 and 280 pound) C's - Dampier and Diop. They do not have Dirk playing the 5. On the Spurs, even TD has Fabricio Oberto at C.

Maybe Bargnani will become that whole new player Brian Colangelo envisioned when he drafted him. That's what it looks like it will take. It puts a lot of pressure on a young player. I know it's very early in the game for Andrea, and I know that we need to give him a chance. But is it fair what's being asked of him? That's my point. Again I know Bosh did it, but is it a plan that works well with the skills that Bargnani naturally possesses?

Is there a chance that the Raptors may ultimately find that they drafted a 4 and nothing but a 4? This has been discussed before but I'd like to see what people think after the first 14-15 games of the season, considering the matchups Bargnani has had to face and the challenges he is fighting through.

T.O-Fan
11-25-2007, 06:16 PM
i think bargnani is very capable of playing C and i think thats where this thing is heading..i dont see him playing behind bosh at 4 and i dont see bosh playing 5 and bargnani playing 4

ink
11-25-2007, 06:19 PM
i think bargnani is very capable of playing C and i think thats where this thing is heading..i dont see him playing behind bosh at 4 and i dont see bosh playing 5 and bargnani playing 4

There's no way Bosh will be playing the 5. What I want to know is whether Bargnani will be playing the 5. How well? How reasonable is it to expect a player with his talents to change and become a low post player?

JermanJaysFan
11-25-2007, 06:22 PM
I see what you're saying, and I would tend to agree with it. LD and I had a big argument along these line in the off/pre season. And, what I think is that, ideally, Bargs would be spending this year, and probably next at the 4. It takes a while to get used to the NBA, and right now his playing style is more suited to that. Both of the bigs you mentioned established themselves at "smaller" positions- Duncan was a 4 and played there, then played the 5 some, and is still really a 4. Nowitzki was originally a 3- after he got acclimatized became a 4. Even Garnett was origianlly a 3 if im correct and now is at least a 4. Anyhow, what I'm trying to say here is that ideally, yes, Bargs would be at the 4 for a while. BUT- he have an all-star there right now. SO, I'd say the solution is to keep him on the bench when Rasho gets back, and start with Rasho as the classic 5. But then, get Bosh and Bargs a lot of time on the court together, but not with the pressure of bargs being THE 5, but him and bosh both being somewhat 4.5s.

ink
11-25-2007, 06:28 PM
I see what you're saying, and I would tend to agree with it. LD and I had a big argument along these line in the off/pre season. And, what I think is that, ideally, Bargs would be spending this year, and probably next at the 4. It takes a while to get used to the NBA, and right now his playing style is more suited to that. Both of the bigs you mentioned established themselves at "smaller" positions- Duncan was a 4 and played there, then played the 5 some, and is still really a 4. Nowitzki was originally a 3- after he got acclimatized became a 4. Even Garnett was origianlly a 3 if im correct and now is at least a 4. Anyhow, what I'm trying to say here is that ideally, yes, Bargs would be at the 4 for a while. BUT- he have an all-star there right now. SO, I'd say the solution is to keep him on the bench when Rasho gets back, and start with Rasho as the classic 5. But then, get Bosh and Bargs a lot of time on the court together, but not with the pressure of bargs being THE 5, but him and bosh both being somewhat 4.5s.

Seems to me we have to adjust our expectations of Andrea, in all fairness. I don't know if you guys would agree, but I'd say this is kind of like developing a defenceman in hockey in the sense that it takes years to really learn to be effective at a very difficult position. I don't think we should be expecting overnight brilliance from AB. It's just not reasonable because this is a huge personal challenge for him. I'm not even sure that this kind of player has ever been converted to a C before, and whether it's possible. He needs a big man coach (as one of us has suggested a few times) and the team needs Rasho back.

LD V2.0
11-25-2007, 06:39 PM
The thing is that physically Bargnani is ahead of where Dirk was at that age and I only expect him to get stronger and bigger as he ages, its only natural. Most experts suggest that center is the hardest position to play and its the hardest position to learn. He's only 22 years old. There is hope for him growing into a player who can hold his own in the middle. Everybody needs to remember that Bosh is only going to get bigger and stronger as well. I think between two of them someone will step up in the years to come. No doubt every team could use a couple 265-280lbs monsters in the middle when things get rough. Who's to say Colangelo won't bring one in the future?

gbus
11-25-2007, 06:39 PM
I'll be honest about this, i have no clue what the answer is. What is true, is that bargs would be very advanced right now if bosh wasn't here and he was able to start at the 4 every night. It's also very clear that its the mental part of the game that is screwing around with him, but i think ink more or less said that. I dunno, really don't, whenever he tries to establish post position, he looks really confused, and he often just bowls over the defender. Either that, or he doesn't establish any position. I dunno, he's got the size and he's got the body. He needs a big coach like others mentioned in the worst way, and not just any coach, a guy who was an established centre in the league, like Patrick Ewing (who's with the Magic) who will basically demand andrea's attention. We're just going to have to ride him out right now and see what we could get out of him, because he's too good to just put behind bosh. Bosh is back to getting around 40 minutes a game, so Bargnani has to see minutes at the 5. He's a work in progress, and i don't have a good answer yet.

ink
11-25-2007, 06:48 PM
I'll be honest about this, i have no clue what the answer is. What is true, is that bargs would be very advanced right now if bosh wasn't here and he was able to start at the 4 every night. It's also very clear that its the mental part of the game that is screwing around with him, but i think ink more or less said that. I dunno, really don't, whenever he tries to establish post position, he looks really confused, and he often just bowls over the defender. Either that, or he doesn't establish any position. I dunno, he's got the size and he's got the body. He needs a big coach like others mentioned in the worst way, and not just any coach, a guy who was an established centre in the league, like Patrick Ewing (who's with the Magic) who will basically demand andrea's attention. We're just going to have to ride him out right now and see what we could get out of him, because he's too good to just put behind bosh. Bosh is back to getting around 40 minutes a game, so Bargnani has to see minutes at the 5. He's a work in progress, and i don't have a good answer yet.

Bynum has Kareem, Yao has had coaching from Olajuwon.

dirtybird
11-25-2007, 07:17 PM
The player he's most often compared to, rightly or wrongly, is about the same weight and has about 1 1/2 " on Bargs. And the Mavericks have surrounded Nowitzki with two big (265 and 280 pound) C's - Dampier and Diop. They do not have Dirk playing the 5. On the Spurs, even TD has Fabricio Oberto at C.



Just a quick note, but Duncan is a C. It may be listed otherwise, but the only time that TD was a PF was when David Robinson was still on the team.

Anyway getting to the main topic, I think that Bargnani can be a C, but it's going to take alot of work and for Andrea to think big. Right now whenever he's in the post, even though he 7', he'll play small. He'll fadeway even when a smaller player is guarding him. He's going to have to learn that he should leaning in towards the basket instead of going away from it, because people aren't going to be blocking his shot. He's also got to go up strong instead of laying up the ball. Alot of it will probably come from experience in learning how to establish a deep low post presence and then taking advantage of it.

In terms of defense, I think that he's strong enough to guard most C's right now. But, he needs to be able to secure better rebounds, because he has a tendency to knock the ball out of bounds. He also needs to do a better job boxing out and being able to anticipate plays and act accordingly. There are too many mental lapse on the defensive end that it's sometimes frustrating to watch him out there.

So, give the guy some time, learning to play an unfamiliar position isn't going to come instantaniously. Remember, to be a C, he really only needs to learn to guard them. Diversifying his game on the offensive end certainly can't hurt in the long run.

ink
11-25-2007, 10:22 PM
Just a quick note, but Duncan is a C. It may be listed otherwise, but the only time that TD was a PF was when David Robinson was still on the team.

You're right, but you know he's listed as a PF in this year's All Star balloting, right?


The NBA shifted Tim Duncan from center to forward on its All-Star ballot on Wednesday, boosting the San Antonio player's chances of making his ninth consecutive start.

The seven-member media panel that selected the players for the original ballot had Duncan as a center, even though he has always been listed as a forward. He was voted to start for the Western Conference each of the last eight seasons, but that streak would have been in jeopardy if he was a center.

Source: MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21923806/)

So we'll likely see Yao starting at C and Duncan starting at PF for the West in this year's All Star game.

I don't mean to take this thread off topic. But Duncan is one of those rare players who has such incredible fundamentals that he can adapt to different positions. It seems like AB7 has a huge amount of work to do on fundamentals before he can play the 5 with authority.

Duncan is a pretty classic NBA big man; Bargs is not.

I guess the original point I was trying to make was that Bargs' uniqueness might be lost by trying to turn him into a C.

LD V2.0
11-25-2007, 11:49 PM
Bynum has Kareem, Yao has had coaching from Olajuwon.

Well, Sam Mitchell never had the natural gifts of Kareem or the rest mentioned in here but he made the league and stayed in the league because of his smarts. Sam is coaching him every day and thats got to help, its not like Bargnani doesn't have a smart teacher helping him out. Sam has done wonders with Bosh so far. KG credits Sam as one of the guys who had a major influence on his game. Yeah, it would be nice if they could bring in a big name guy to work with him as a consultant but they don't grow on trees. He could do a lot worse than Sam Mitchell, I can tell you that. And, yes, I know Sam wasn't a prototypical center and you wouldn't see him penciled in at the 5 on any depth charts be he guarded a lot of them.

canzano55
11-26-2007, 02:25 AM
This thread has brought up a hot issue that the majority of people have overlooked.

What it comes down to, basically, is a two-way argument: the importance of exposing players inability to adapt and be versatile; history has shown players having their careers ruined due to a natural position complex.

Some of the most talented soccer players in Europe have had complete career reversals by entering environments that prevented them from playing their natural game. Oppositely, their exposure to the soccer world can change public opinion quickly and so a players title can be bumped from "world class" to "overrated".

Keeping with the subject at hand, Bargnani has the talent foundation to become an All Star caliber player, however the likelihood of this ascension revolves around the things Bargnani does that brought him here number 1 overall. Those things are mostly offense oriented: expert spot shooting, small turnaround fades, quick escape passing for a big, setting effective screens and basically just throwing his marker totally off balance. Notice these characteristics have very little to do with a 5, even though Bargs can wheel in a couple of blocks here and there his fouling and weak timing can make him a borderline liability on defense.

What I prefer to see happen (and I'll probably get a lot of flack) is for BC to move on a quick paced C like Varejao and have Bargs rotate with Bosh off the bench. This way we could maintain a very balanced offense and indirectly it would permit Bargs to take more shots which is what he's great at.

In the even that Bargs develops some post moves and can be relied on to man the 5 consistently...than fantastic. But for now a Bosh and Bargs combo just doesn't look that good.

ink
11-26-2007, 02:32 AM
This thread has brought up a hot issue that the majority of people have overlooked.

What it comes down to, basically, is a two-way argument: the importance of exposing players inability to adapt and be versatile; history has shown players having their careers ruined due to a natural position complex.

Some of the most talented soccer players in Europe have had complete career reversals by entering environments that prevented them from playing their natural game. Oppositely, their exposure to the soccer world can change public opinion quickly and so a players title can be bumped from "world class" to "overrated".

Keeping with the subject at hand, Bargnani has the talent foundation to become an All Star caliber player, however the likelihood of this ascension revolves around the things Bargnani does that brought him here number 1 overall. Those things are mostly offense oriented: expert spot shooting, small turnaround fades, quick escape passing for a big, setting effective screens and basically just throwing his marker totally off balance. Notice these characteristics have very little to do with a 5, even though Bargs can wheel in a couple of blocks here and there his fouling and weak timing can make him a borderline liability on defense.

What I prefer to see happen (and I'll probably get a lot of flack) is for BC to move on a quick paced C like Varejao and have Bargs rotate with Bosh off the bench. This way we could maintain a very balanced offense and indirectly it would permit Bargs to take more shots which is what he's great at.

In the even that Bargs develops some post moves and can be relied on to man the 5 consistently...than fantastic. But for now a Bosh and Bargs combo just doesn't look that good.

Thanks for understanding exactly what I was getting at. And your football analogy is very good because Bargs is coming from a European sports environment as well. I'm not saying it's a given that Bargs can only play the game that brought him here #1, but there's a chance he won't make the transition. We don't know how adaptable he will be. The question is: do people really appreciate how much is being asked of Bargs to get him to play the 5 in the NBA when he achieved his success as a European 4? IMO it's a huge transition - much bigger than most players are asked to make.

LD V2.0
11-26-2007, 02:41 AM
I think you're making things sound more serious than they are. What are we really talking about here at the end of the day? Defense. Bargnani still has free reign to play his brand of basketball on offense so its all coming down to the question can he guard the centers? Not yet, on a consistent basis anyway. This can work down the road and what everyone needs to remember is that he's got the size and strength to play the position, he just needs the practice, training and experience to make it happen. Him playing center is not going to be detrimental to his career or how people look at him. He's a scorer and no matter what you call him, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, he's still a scorer at the end of the day and thats all he is right now. That doesn't mean he can't or won't be more. His offensive game this year has been shaky but I think his confidence it probably low from the poor play at FIBA. If his shots start falling there will be few of these threads around. He looks better and more comfortable on D this year than last year. Varejao wants 10 mill a year and I think the idea of pulling the trigger on an a deal thats going to bring in a player making 10 mill a year, who really is merely an energy guy is horrible idea. Making deals like that can sink teams. I like him, **** I wore a Varejao sig a majority of last season but I don't want him on the Raptors for 10 mill a year. Right now, I don't think Colangelo wouldn't make a move for a player with a big deal anyway. It deviates from the game plan.

canzano55
11-26-2007, 02:42 AM
Thanks for understanding exactly what I was getting at. And your football analogy is very good because Bargs is coming from a European sports environment as well. I'm not saying it's a given that Bargs can only play the game that brought him here #1, but there's a chance he won't make the transition. We don't know how adaptable he will be. The question is: do people really appreciate how much is being asked of Bargs to get him to play the 5 in the NBA when he achieved his success as a European 4? IMO it's a huge transition - much bigger than most players are asked to make.
You might be right. In that case the invariable equation will result in our offense suffering because our projected success heavily relies on Bargs increasing the teams overall scoring totals.

ink
11-26-2007, 02:55 AM
I think you're making things sound more serious than they are. What are we really talking about here at the end of the day? Defense. Bargnani still has free reign to play his brand of basketball on offense so its all coming down to the question can he guard the centers? Not yet, on a consistent basis anyway. This can work down the road and what everyone needs to remember is that he's got the size and strength to play the position, he just needs the practice, training and experience to make it happen. Him playing center is not going to be detrimental to his career or how people look at him. He's a scorer and no matter what you call him, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, he's still a scorer at the end of the day and thats all he is right now. That doesn't mean he can't or won't be more. His offensive game this year has been shaky but I think his confidence it probably low from the poor play at FIBA. If his shots start falling there will be few of these threads around. He looks better and more comfortable on D this year than last year. Varejao wants 10 mill a year and I think the idea of pulling the trigger on an a deal thats going to bring in a player making 10 mill a year, who really is merely an energy guy is horrible idea. Making deals like that can sink teams. I like him, **** I wore a Varejao sig a majority of last season but I don't want him on the Raptors for 10 mill a year. Right now, I don't think Colangelo wouldn't make a move for a player with a big deal anyway. It deviates from the game plan.

You have to start giving credit to other fans ideas and stop insinuating that every thread is motivated by fickleness.

ink
11-26-2007, 02:57 AM
You might be right. In that case the invariable equation will result in our offense suffering because our projected success heavily relies on Bargs increasing the teams overall scoring totals.

I actually don't want to be right, if you know what I mean. :) I'm just thinking through a concern about AB. I want him (and BC and Gherardini, who probably recommended him highly) to succeed completely. I really like him and hope he adapts. I just thought it would be a good thread idea to discuss since it's interesting to see what players are going through in their development. I really enjoy hearing other people's insights into this.

LD V2.0
11-26-2007, 02:58 AM
Don't start something you can't finish here. I'm not insinuating anything that post there chief. What I'm saying is true, he's a scorer and scorers draw heat when they're not producing.

canzano55
11-26-2007, 02:59 AM
I think you're making things sound more serious than they are.Of course its not serious when the team is playing .500 ball and things are mostly dandy. I just think that if Bargs played more 4 it could make things even better for everyone.


What are we really talking about here at the end of the day? Defense.
Bargnani still has free reign to play his brand of basketball on offense so its all coming down to the question can he guard the centers? There's a flaw with this logic here. Firstly, anybody with his girth and length can be a challenge for C's post up. His defense is not much of an issue he just needs to stop getting unforced calls in the paint. However a player who gets the permission to "free reign" on offense at the 5 tells me there's no incentive for offensive rebounds. The reality is Bargnani naturally prefers to run back after a missed shot and protect his *** on the transition than go for goal. Thats fine if your a 3 and maybe even a 4, but a5 just doesn't cut it.



This can work down the road and what everyone needs to remember is that he's got the size and strength to play the position, he just needs the practice, training and experience to make it happen. Him playing center is not going to be detrimental to his career or how people look at him. He's a scorer and no matter what you call him, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, he's still a scorer at the end of the day and thats all he is right now.He's a scorer who lacks some determination and tenacity. Hopefully those mental setbacks will be corrected and he'll be an overall more effective player. What would make things easier is if he stuck to a 4 position which would allow for more rebounding and an increase in the teams shot totals.


Varejao wants 10 mill a year and I think the idea of pulling the trigger on an a deal thats going to bring in a player making 10 mill a year, who really is merely an energy guy is horrible idea. Making deals like that can sink teams. I like him, **** I wore a Varejao sig a majority of last season but I don't want him on the Raptors for 10 mill a year. Right now, I don't think Colangelo wouldn't make a move for a player with a big deal anyway. It deviates from the game plan.Look, if you want defense, rebounding, and alot of volume in the paint, you got to pay for it. We give 10 mil to a great energy player...so what? We gave Rasho 8 mil and he's expiring soon.

ink
11-26-2007, 03:01 AM
Don't start something you can't finish here. I'm not insinuating anything that post there chief. What I'm saying is true, he's a scorer and scorers draw heat when they're not producing.

That's your point. Not the point of the thread.

Dragan
11-26-2007, 03:50 AM
i think he is just goign through the clasis 2nd year slump. But one thing that conserns me with Andrea is that he is not shure what he wants/needs to do when he has teh ball. it seems to me everytime he has teh ball he freezes. I dont know if you guys have noticed that.

the other opinion here of getting a big man coach is interasting, however Andrea is not a typical big man, so might be harder to get somone to teach him. but then he needs a bigman coach to teach him the intagebles of teh inside game. But i think that the smitch and rasho can teach him all that he needs to know.

Finally, to answer my own question, the reason that he is struggling now, is that i think he is trying to figure out how to play C and incorporate his skill in to that posotion. last year he played more of a PF and Guard style, now he has to learn how to play inside and i think that is what ails his scoring ability right now.

Bramaca
11-26-2007, 10:48 AM
Well, Sam Mitchell never had the natural gifts of Kareem or the rest mentioned in here but he made the league and stayed in the league because of his smarts. Sam is coaching him every day and thats got to help, its not like Bargnani doesn't have a smart teacher helping him out. Sam has done wonders with Bosh so far. KG credits Sam as one of the guys who had a major influence on his game. Yeah, it would be nice if they could bring in a big name guy to work with him as a consultant but they don't grow on trees. He could do a lot worse than Sam Mitchell, I can tell you that. And, yes, I know Sam wasn't a prototypical center and you wouldn't see him penciled in at the 5 on any depth charts be he guarded a lot of them.

The big problem with this is that Bargnani needs more than a few minutes a day 1 on 1 with a coach. Mitchell may have some experience in the post but he wasn't a post player. Bargnani needs a coach who can work with him individually. If Mitchell is doing that then he isn't doing his job as the Raptors coach, if he isn't then Bargnani isn't getting the attention he needs.

koreancabbage
11-26-2007, 12:38 PM
sophomore jinx!

ink
11-26-2007, 01:03 PM
sophomore jinx!

I hope you're kidding. I don't think it's that at all.

LD V2.0
11-26-2007, 01:36 PM
However a player who gets the permission to "free reign" on offense at the 5 tells me there's no incentive for offensive rebounds. The reality is Bargnani naturally prefers to run back after a missed shot and protect his *** on the transition than go for goal. Thats fine if your a 3 and maybe even a 4, but a5 just doesn't cut it.

He's a scorer who lacks some determination and tenacity. Hopefully those mental setbacks will be corrected and he'll be an overall more effective player. What would make things easier is if he stuck to a 4 position which would allow for more rebounding and an increase in the teams shot totals.
Look, if you want defense, rebounding, and alot of volume in the paint, you got to pay for it. We give 10 mil to a great energy player...so what? We gave Rasho 8 mil and he's expiring soon.

The way Bargnani plays on offense is probably a product of the objectives Sam stressed with him and those that he didn't stress. Sam said it pretty clearly at the beginning of the season, he doesn't care about Bargnani's offensive rebounds but if he doesn't hit the glass on D there will be hell to pay. Like I said, Sam gave Bargnani free reign to play his style of game and it looks like for now that game has no place in the starting five on a nightly basis. It doesn't bother me if he's not hitting the offensive glass right now, its not part of his game yet. If you remember when Bosh came into the league he couldn't post up, he couldn't hit a mid range shot consistently and he certainly was mediocre at the line. Year by year he grew as a player, thats what young players do. It doesn't all happen over not, its a process.

The Raptors never gave Rasho 8 mill a year, they traded for an 8 mill a year player with a contract that was expiring at the same time a bulk of the other "transition era" contracts were expiring. The Raptors would have been capped out so his contract would not affect their free agency plans for the future. If they went for a sign and trade for Varejao at 10 mill a year now you're probably looking at a 50 mill contract. That eats up most of the cap space they have coming, which means they would have little no no chance at brining in a steady veteran star to line up with Bosh. If you have no trouble signing a guy who can't offer anything on offense and hasn't had much burn in a starting role to prove himself then its pointless for me to even debate this.


The big problem with this is that Bargnani needs more than a few minutes a day 1 on 1 with a coach. Mitchell may have some experience in the post but he wasn't a post player. Bargnani needs a coach who can work with him individually. If Mitchell is doing that then he isn't doing his job as the Raptors coach, if he isn't then Bargnani isn't getting the attention he needs.

Bargnani was never asked to play a post game until he got drafted. Its a lot harder than the pros make it look. Do you remember how long it took a guy like Jermaine O'Neil to develope a strong post game out of high school? Similar deal, he never had much experience with it either. O'Neal turned into a pretty damn good post player, too bad for the Pacers he stopped playing like that but anyway, my point is that these things take time. One consistant thing you hear around the league when it comes to young bigs, they always take the longest time to grow into strong players because their position is the hardest of all to learn.


That's your point. Not the point of the thread.

Well I guess I crashed the party.

Bramaca
11-26-2007, 02:51 PM
Bargnani was never asked to play a post game until he got drafted. Its a lot harder than the pros make it look. Do you remember how long it took a guy like Jermaine O'Neil to develope a strong post game out of high school? Similar deal, he never had much experience with it either. O'Neal turned into a pretty damn good post player, too bad for the Pacers he stopped playing like that but anyway, my point is that these things take time. One consistant thing you hear around the league when it comes to young bigs, they always take the longest time to grow into strong players because their position is the hardest of all to learn.

What was the use of this response, it had absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I never said it won't take a while for him to develope, I said maybe they shouldn't just count on Sam to do it since he should be concentrating on the team as a whole instead of individual players.

canzano55
11-26-2007, 03:13 PM
The way Bargnani plays on offense is probably a product of the objectives Sam stressed with him and those that he didn't stress. Sam said it pretty clearly at the beginning of the season, he doesn't care about Bargnani's offensive rebounds but if he doesn't hit the glass on D there will be hell to pay. Woah Sam said that! I'm not calling you a liar or anything but to imagine Sam endorsing an offense that isn't aggressive under the glass just doesn't compute. Everyone knows rebounding isn't Bargnani's game but that doesn't excuse the Raptors offense averaging one of the lowest rebounding totals in the league.


Like I said, Sam gave Bargnani free reign to play his style of game and it looks like for now that game has no place in the starting five on a nightly basis. It doesn't bother me if he's not hitting the offensive glass right now, its not part of his game yet. If you remember when Bosh came into the league he couldn't post up, he couldn't hit a mid range shot consistently and he certainly was mediocre at the line. Year by year he grew as a player, thats what young players do. It doesn't all happen over not, its a process. You're right and I realize that C spot is an extremely difficult postion to learn and takes time. Bargs definitely has the mental capacity to learn it and he probably will in time, but I prefer the learining process to be dealt with gradually instead of throwing Bargs into the meat grinder. A rebounding big man who can compliment Bosh would make us better off short term and allow Bargs to marge in the position at a sound pace.


If you have no trouble signing a guy who can't offer anything on offense and hasn't had much burn in a starting role to prove himself then its pointless for me to even debate this.Excuse me but who is available in '09 that plays AV's positon and is better overall? I can't think of anyone... A 10/10 player who doesn't have a history of injuries and has already proven he's a playoff monster warrants a 10 mil contract. And you're right its not debatable because its a no brainer.

LD V2.0
11-26-2007, 03:27 PM
Yeah, signing Varejao to a 10mill/year deal is a no brainer, thats exactly why he's sitting at home playing Xbox and eating Doritos right now instead of playing for a team who desperately could use his services. Ever wonder why the Cavs won't give him that sort of money? Ever wonder why there have been zero sign and trade rumors? But yeah, I guess you're right and all the suits running the show are wrong.

GregOden#1
11-26-2007, 04:07 PM
lol@AV getting 10 mil

canzano55
11-26-2007, 04:21 PM
Ever wonder why the Cavs won't give him that sort of money? Because in 2010 the Cavs are going to have to give Lebron max money in order to keep him and their funds are already steep.

LD V2.0
11-26-2007, 04:50 PM
You didn't fully answer my question. Funny how there are no teams rumored to be interested in brining him in but I'm sure it has nothing to do with the 10mill/yr price tag. Oh and just so you know, every single contract the Cavs have runs out between now to a year before LBJ becomes an unrestricted free agent. They're in a good position to give him the money yet they won't.

Jmac
11-26-2007, 04:58 PM
Because in 2010 the Cavs are going to have to give Lebron max money in order to keep him and their funds are already steep.

What do you think Bosh will be looking for same year.

As for topic, yes I believe he can play center for the Raps. Although, I seriously doubt he will ever become the low post rebounding monster everyone here thinks grow on trees. I see him more than capable on the defensive end in the long run and his offence shouldn't and probably won't change much because I believe him pulling a big out of the paint is much more helpful than if he developed an average post game.

As for rebounds I really think it's going to have to come from the wings and Bosh. Unless there is a drastic change in Colangelo's game plan. However, I would expect Barg for 6/8 defensive boards per game.

As for old timer coach how bout Sabonis??

Side note. Wouldnt touch AV for more than 6 to 7. Same thing I would offer Kwame Brown in the offseason.

canzano55
11-26-2007, 06:08 PM
You didn't fully answer my question. Funny how there are no teams rumored to be interested in brining him in but I'm sure it has nothing to do with the 10mill/yr price tag. There are only 3 teams in the league that deperately need a player like Varejao, GSW, Chicago, and the Raps. Among those teams I only see the Raps and Bulls willing to part with 8 - 10 mil.

And yes he is worth the money seeing as how frauds like Milicic are making more money and regardless of the fact there are no reported teams interested at the moment.



They're in a good position to give him the money yet they won't.Among those player becomming free agents only about half a really expendable.

gbus
11-26-2007, 06:14 PM
There are only 3 teams in the league that deperately need a player like Varejao, GSW, Chicago, and the Raps. Among those teams I only see the Raps and Bulls willing to part with 8 - 10 mil.

And yes he is worth the money seeing as how frauds like Milicic are making more money and regardless of the fact there are no reported teams interested at the moment.


Among those player becomming free agents only about half a really expendable.

Chicago needs varejao? Huh? They have Joakim Noah, Ben Wallace and Joe Smith who are all defensive bigs, and u know they're all defensive when Joe Smith gives you the best offence out of the three. And you think the bulls need Varejao? Did u watch the NBA finals last year? Did you see his offence? The bulls need a low post scorer, or an offensive big. They have 3 varejaos. He also wouldn't play in GS cus they play nellie ball which often has al harrington at center (although they do also play biedrins who is a realy center). He wouldn't get much PT in GS. I'm hoping u just crossed up or something.

LD V2.0
11-26-2007, 06:58 PM
Among those player becomming free agents only about half a really expendable.

So? Most of them are going to see a pay cut. Hughes and Big Z are in for large pay cuts as Big Z will be 35 at that time and no one will ever be willing to give Hughes a big contract after the poor track record for staying healthy. Eric Snow, who's making around 7 mill a year will be off the book after this season. He's in for a league minimum contract at that point. Marshall won't get the full MLE again and Drew Gooden has done nothing to justify a pay hike. Gibson is in for a nice raise but he's probably going to get anymore than MLE offers. They can do give Varejao what he wants but they don't because he's not worth it. Just because the Grizzlies jump off a cliff does everybody else has to do it? And the Bulls don't need another big who can't score in the post, they have enough of them. They're already over paying for an energy guy who can't do anything on offense and it isn't working out.


Chicago needs varejao? Huh? They have Joakim Noah, Ben Wallace and Joe Smith who are all defensive bigs, and u know they're all defensive when Joe Smith gives you the best offence out of the three. And you think the bulls need Varejao? Did u watch the NBA finals last year? Did you see his offence? The bulls need a low post scorer, or an offensive big. They have 3 varejaos. He also wouldn't play in GS cus they play nellie ball which often has al harrington at center (although they do also play biedrins who is a realy center). He wouldn't get much PT in GS. I'm hoping u just crossed up or something.

You beat me to it. I totally agree, gbus. *Cosigned*

canzano55
11-26-2007, 07:40 PM
. He wouldn't get much PT in GS. I'm hoping u just crossed up or something.


And the Bulls don't need another big who can't score in the post, they have enough of them. They're already over paying for an energy guy who can't do anything on offense and it isn't working out.

Ok. No more long winded answers. Ben Wallace, Biedrins, Joe Smith...Varejao is a better player than all these guys for lots a reasons but for now its the free throws and interior spacing that sets him above the rest.

Varejao has no offense? How about Cavs have no point guard? Or how about a cavs playbook with the front title called: "Give the ball to Mr. Lebron James". Regardless, Varejao is a top garbage player in this league and he deserves more than garbage money. 10 million is a lot but I bet the Cavs will offer an 8.75 with incentives and he'll accept. The reality is though without Varejao Cleveland doesn't even sniff another finals at least for another 4 years.

gbus
11-26-2007, 07:54 PM
Ok. No more long winded answers. Ben Wallace, Biedrins, Joe Smith...Varejao is a better player than all these guys for lots a reasons but for now its the free throws and interior spacing that sets him above the rest.

Varejao has no offense? How about Cavs have no point guard? Or how about a cavs playbook with the front title called: "Give the ball to Mr. Lebron James". Regardless, Varejao is a top garbage player in this league and he deserves more than garbage money. 10 million is a lot but I bet the Cavs will offer an 8.75 with incentives and he'll accept. The reality is though without Varejao Cleveland doesn't even sniff another finals at least for another 4 years.

Ya, he does have no offense. Show me some film of him having offense. He got the ball in the finals last year (or was it the conference finals) and threw it off the backboard, remember that? America (in other words, those who slurp lerbon) almost had a heart attack. Also, Biedrins is better than varejao and Big Ben is having a really bad stretch right now, but is not far removed from being a dominant defensive player. Big Ben is debatably still better than varejao.

Look, if you think Varejao has something that Chicago doesn't already have, well, you've probably been having too many nightmares of him dunking on bosh's head last year, and you think that makes him worth $10 million.
LD got it right, if the cavs haven't given him the money yet and don't seem like they want to, what makes you think they're gonna give it to him? I thought you were confused when you initially mentioned these two teams, but you backed yourself up, and now i have no clue where you're coming from.

ink
11-26-2007, 07:56 PM
Funny how this turned into a thread about Anderson Varajao when it started out as a thread about remaking a unique European PF into an NBA style C. Not interested in pointing fingers about it, just mentioning that the good posts about what it will take for Andrea - himself - to make that transition have been left behind in this thread.

gbus
11-26-2007, 08:05 PM
Funny how this turned into a thread about Anderson Varajao when it started out as a thread about remaking a unique European PF into an NBA style C. Not interested in pointing fingers about it, just mentioning that the good posts about what it will take for Andrea - himself - to make that transition have been left behind in this thread.

I hear ya man, but i've already stated that i have no clue what the answer to the thread's question is. I checked in and saw something that i thought was ridiculous so i had to call the guy out. Couldn't help myself.

canzano55
11-26-2007, 08:07 PM
Ya, he does have no offense. .
Omg and Beidrins/Wallace have offense? What do you think a garbage player is anyway? If a big man can fight for offensive boards and put them back with tap ins or pump fakes while drawing fouls...then that big man is doing his job and thats what Varejao does.


Show me some film of him having offense.Now you're being silly.


He got the ball in the finals last year (or was it the conference finals) and threw it off the backboard, remember that? America (in other words, those who slurp lerbon) almost had a heart attack. After Lebron, Varejao was the sub plot story that kept the passion going down low. Granted the Spurs gave him a very hard time but what does anyone expect to do against the Spurs?


Look, if you think Varejao has something that Chicago doesn't already have, well, you've probably been having too many nightmares of him dunking on bosh's head last year, and you think that makes him worth $10 million. Enthusiasm and lots of guile. Thats already plenty.


I thought you were confused when you initially mentioned these two teams, but you backed yourself up, and now i have no clue where you're coming from.I'll throw in Atlanta while I'm at it.

LD V2.0
11-26-2007, 08:09 PM
Funny how this turned into a thread about Anderson Varajao when it started out as a thread about remaking a unique European PF into an NBA style C. Not interested in pointing fingers about it, just mentioning that the good posts about what it will take for Andrea - himself - to make that transition have been left behind in this thread.

You could always use your mod powers to move it to its own thread.


Omg and Beidrins/Wallace have offense? What do you think a garbage player is anyway? If a big man can fight for offensive boards and put them back with tap ins or pump fakes while drawing fouls...then that big man is doing his job and thats what Varejao does.

Did you watch the finals? His inability to put the ball in the hoop on the easiest of possessions is partially to blame for why the Cavs got slaughtered so badly.

ink
11-26-2007, 08:09 PM
I hear ya man, but i've already stated that i have no clue what the answer to the thread's question is. I checked in and saw something that i thought was ridiculous so i had to call the guy out. Couldn't help myself.

Like I said, I'm not faulting anyone.

Canzano also had some good insights into the challenges Bargs will face. AV was just one of his suggestions. Any others?

gbus
11-26-2007, 08:12 PM
Omg and Beidrins/Wallace have offense? What do you think a garbage player is anyway? If a big man can fight for offensive boards and put them back with tap ins or pump fakes while drawing fouls...then that big man is doing his job and thats what Varejao does.
Now you're being silly.
After Lebron, Varejao was the sub plot story that kept the passion going down low. Granted the Spurs gave him a very hard time but what does anyone expect to do against the Spurs?
Enthusiasm and lots of guile. Thats already plenty.
I'll throw in Atlanta while I'm at it.

Did i say Biedrins/Ben had offense? They are better overall players. None of them have offense. If Offensive boards/tip ins are considered part of a players offensive game (which they probably are now that i think of it), than Ben/Biedrins do that too. Varejao was very good in the playoffs, but not for his offense. You've turned every point i made into something that they weren't. And Atlanta has Al Horford. A rookie who will be cheaper for the next 4 years and who has proven that he puts the team over himself. Look man, im not attacking you, but your whole stance on varejao makes little sense.

canzano55
11-26-2007, 08:17 PM
Sorry I didn't mean for this thread to go 180.

All the points about Varejao not being worth what he's asking are totally legit, but I believe there's more to this player than meets the eye. The same goes for Bargnani but in Varejao I believe has the fight and cleverness to become a top 10 C in this league and he's exactly the type of player the Raps could use right now.

LD V2.0
11-26-2007, 08:20 PM
Yeah, he would help but not for 10 mill a year. He only plays one side of the floor and he's not dominate at that side.

ink
11-26-2007, 08:21 PM
There was a good article on ESPN about AV so I posted a thread about it in the NBA Forum - http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165226

gbus
11-26-2007, 08:23 PM
Yeah, he would help but not for 10 mill a year.

Agreed. His energy would help alot, but we wouldn't/shouldn't expect offense from him. We are a team that he can help.

canzano55
11-26-2007, 08:24 PM
He only plays one side of the floor and he's not dominate at that side.Well in all fairness so does Bargs.

LD V2.0
11-26-2007, 08:25 PM
Yeah but Andrea isn't screaming to the heavens for 10 million a year. Thats the problem with Varejao, his game doesn't match his price tag and he's not looking for a couple years either. He wants a long term deal at that price. Thats a huge commitment.

Bramaca
11-26-2007, 08:46 PM
I like AV but he isn't worth 10 mil a year, maybe 7. Nobody else can offer him more than the MLE so the Cavs should stick to the offer of 6.5 mil and no more. Really, he only averaged 6ppg and 6rpg last year. He is a lot like Humprhries in terms of style of play, an upgrade, but not that much of one that he would be worth 6-7 mil more a season.

In the 6 mil range a guy I really like is Gadzuric off of the Bucks. I don't know why but I think he would be great off the bench for the Raps.

thomas1
11-26-2007, 08:56 PM
whether he plays 3, 4 or five he has to learn how to defend bigs. Guards are just too quick for him.

Halladay
11-26-2007, 11:22 PM
I think we need to see Bargnani's body size develope until we decide his future at the center position. He needs to put on another 20,30 pounds if he wants to become a serious post player.

GregOden#1
11-27-2007, 12:15 AM
Classic european subconscious racist bias towards non-american players is all I see from Canzano's posts.

LD is wrong on about 90% of what he says, but right now he's perfectly right in saying Varejao is a one dimensional player that isn't even that great at what he does best, and certainly isn't worth 10 mil long term. Why would they sign a player who obviously isn't worth that money to a long term deal when they are going to try and sign Bosh/Wade in 2010, doesn't make any sense.

LD V2.0
11-27-2007, 12:31 AM
Ha, ha, well I guess that means you're right 1% of the time.

Fion
11-27-2007, 04:49 AM
is bargs a 4 in a 5s body, or even more pertinent, is bargs a great 4 but a potentially weak 5.

Halladay
11-27-2007, 05:18 AM
He's a 7 footer. At that height and at his age, its way too early to start labelling him as a forward or center.

Fion
11-27-2007, 07:59 PM
i think bargs could be a great great 4, i dont know if he can be a great center...

JermanJaysFan
11-27-2007, 08:05 PM
I think we need to see Bargnani's body size develope until we decide his future at the center position. He needs to put on another 20,30 pounds if he wants to become a serious post player.

I disagree. I dont think it is his body size that is harming his play right now- it is just instincts. In fact, I think putting on another 20-30 pounds would do more bad than good as he would lose some of the quickness that helps to make him special. Remeber, this guy already weighs in at around 260- I think thats enough

Halladay
11-27-2007, 08:06 PM
I think the reason alot of people don't see him as a center is because he's not that typical fat man center who can push people away but the Center position is changing...Nowitski came up as a center(a PF now) but I'd look at Amare Stoudimire or a Center like that who depends more on athleticism and finesse rather then his weight and im sure alot of people would consider Amare an elite Center, im not trying to compare Bargnani and Amare but in 3-4 years who knows.

Fion
11-27-2007, 08:09 PM
stoudamire is 3x as athletic as bargs and can jump out of the gym.

Bargs is quick true, but not as athletic as that. Bargs is more like nowitski, and dirk plays best as a pf, i think bargs could be dirk at pf, but might not even turn into memut okur at center.

Halladay
11-27-2007, 08:16 PM
I said im not trying to compare Amare and Bargnani, I just brought up Amare because there really isn't any Center's to compare Bargnani with, my point was that you don't need that typical Center who weighs 300lbs and is as big as a truck. I think the idea going forward is to develope Bargnani into a Center and that's where I want him. He's proven at times that he can garb reounds when the team needs him to. We have Bosh as our future PF and the Idea going forward is to have Bargnani as our future Center. IMO Bargnani is a Center, that's where I want to see him, we've all go to be patient, let him develope some muscle and some post skills and we'll get that Center we've never had.

JermanJaysFan
11-28-2007, 10:49 AM
The thing is, I think is he leave Bargs with the skill set he has right now, and continue to develop him, he has the potential to be a Nowitzki. Which is great, I mean Dirk is an MVP. But, I think what BC and Sam see is that, if Bargs can develop some dominant centre skills, he can become something really and truely unique, and one of the more dominant players in the game. If he can learn to post up and defend the guys like Oden and Howard, while keeping the same shooting skill and driving finesse he has now, he could be REALLY dominant. I mean, since when do you see a dominant centre do this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=nmTIqd2ExwM), or this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=7NY8aCa72HI), or this? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=s7dey9BTPOA&feature=related). And if Bargs can keep those skills and evelop ones like this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Bg1MAeJBkY), and this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ohko7vELz4c&feature=related), then he has the chance to become really, really, really great. And put his two types of skills together to do this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ceCkUKUudI&feature=related).

ink
11-30-2007, 11:25 PM
Didn't get to see the game against the Cavs tonight but I heard that Bargs got 26 points as a PF. Look at the difference in performance between when he plays his customary PF role and when he plays out of position at the 5. Night and day.

HoopsMachine
12-03-2007, 09:25 AM
Didn't get to see the game against the Cavs tonight but I heard that Bargs got 26 points as a PF. Look at the difference in performance between when he plays his customary PF role and when he plays out of position at the 5. Night and day.

I agree... his skills translate better at the 4 in terms of his effectiveness to the team. Depending on the matchup I also like him at the 3 where he also can play effectively with Bosh.

ink
12-16-2007, 05:21 PM
IMO Bargnani is really struggling now that he's having to do more than play with his natural skill set. He's looking completely confused out there.

LittleBosh
12-16-2007, 05:41 PM
IMO Bargnani is really struggling now that he's having to do more than play with his natural skill set. He's looking completely confused out there.

Barg is on the board tonight only thanks to his offensive fouls and turnovers. He's been a non-factor for a while folks, there's positively no telling when (or if) he is going to become one again. He's in the middle of a major time slump.

Bob_at_york
12-16-2007, 06:22 PM
I don't mind slumps, but in the 4 games since he has come back from injury he has attempted only 2 three-pointers! That is unacceptable! That is his strength and he is getting away from it. I am tired of him turning down good looks from 3-point land. The worst part is that this "disease" is spreading, AP was doing the same thing today.

lovingTO
12-16-2007, 06:51 PM
bargs is starrting to piss me off

the life
12-16-2007, 07:20 PM
Bargnani is not center material. He is a shutting guard in offense and a liability in defence. To make a center of him is going to be impossible. He is not athletically fit to be a strong rebounder. I say try to make bargs a shutting guard, he shuts really well threes. At this time he is struggling because the teamís expectations on him put him out of his comfort zone. He is in the situation to forget everything he is good at, and start learning something else completely new. This is unfair for anybody.

LD V2.0
12-16-2007, 07:29 PM
I don't mind slumps, but in the 4 games since he has come back from injury he has attempted only 2 three-pointers! That is unacceptable! That is his strength and he is getting away from it. I am tired of him turning down good looks from 3-point land. The worst part is that this "disease" is spreading, AP was doing the same thing today.

Yeah and when he's shooting 46% from beyond the arc you have to start question why he's not attempting more. I mean why isn't he looking for those opportunities? At least twice today I seen him pass up looks from three point land that last year he would have released on without thought or conscience. He's confusing me to say the least.


Bargnani is not center material. He is a shutting guard in offense and a liability in defence. To make a center of him is going to be impossible. He is not athletically fit to be a strong rebounder. I say try to make bargs a shutting guard, he shuts really well threes. At this time he is struggling because the team’s expectations on him put him out of his comfort zone. He is in the situation to forget everything he is good at, and start learning something else completely new. This is unfair for anybody.

Come on now lets be fair. I wouldn't say liability but he is struggling. He had a tough assignment today having to guard KG. Bosh handled Garnett no better.

Bob_at_york
12-16-2007, 07:36 PM
Yeah and when he's shooting 46% from beyond the arc you have to start question why he's not attempting more. I mean why isn't he looking for those opportunities? At least twice today I seen him pass up looks from three point land that last year he would have released on without thought or conscience. He's confusing me to say the least.
that's what I am talking about. Are the coaches telling him not to take those shots? I don't get it. Also i thought they did some big mental test on Bargs before he came over. I don't remember what the test was but I thought it was suppose to stop Bargs from getting all screwed up in the head like he looks to be now.

LD V2.0
12-16-2007, 07:57 PM
Are you talking about IQ tests? Bargnani apparently tested through the roof on all the standard basketball IQ tests. I'm not sure what his problem is but I think its origins have something to do with the FIBA tournament. His troubles started there. He was asked to be the man and he fell on his face and so the team fell on its face. Maybe thats still really bothering him? It looks like he has no confidence and I think its all coming back to that. He just doesn't look like he's sure of himself anymore. He almost looks like he did last season before Bosh lost his **** at him in front of a sold out crowd at the ACC. From that point on Bargnani played well. Bargnani needs to start acting and playing like a man again and maybe he's going to need some tough love? Like Bosh losing his mind again or like Sam's famous "no rules" big men only rebounding practice of last season?

thomas1
12-16-2007, 08:08 PM
I really don't like the way Sam is treating the situation. here you have a very skilled player who is not getting playing time.

I posted this on another thread, but he was rushed too soon to the center position. My guess it's the front office, who also envisions him as a center. Sam should know that he is losing a lot offense by sitting Andrea on the bench let alone slowing his development and shaking his confidence.

Its too early to to say he's incapable of being a 5, the guy is only 22 years. Maybe its better if the play him behind Bosh. A least that way we have a reliable second scorer in case Bosh goes down.

LD V2.0
12-16-2007, 08:10 PM
Bargnani is not working hard on the floor. If he show favoritism to Bargnani then that ****s with the team chemistry.

the life
12-16-2007, 09:00 PM
I don't understant how you guys don't see bargs problem. he is asked by smitch to play as center ...to play what rasco is playing. to post up to move and score around the basket. this is what bargs is asked to play. so how can he score threes when he is not allowed to leave the paint. but he stinks big time around the basket and this is the reason he cannot find his game. he should play as shutting guard. he is not athletic enough and has no skills in playing with the back to the basket. if they continue to ask him to be a centre he is going to be a super big failure. bigger than darko.

ink
12-16-2007, 09:20 PM
I don't understant how you guys don't see bargs problem.

Read the beginning of the thread. That's exactly what the discussion is about.

the life
12-16-2007, 09:32 PM
Is there a chance that the Raptors may ultimately find that they drafted a 4 and nothing but a 4? This has been discussed before but I'd like to see what people think after the first 14-15 games of the season, considering the matchups Bargnani has had to face and the challenges he is fighting through.

Bargs is not a 4. bosh is a 4 duncan is a 4. bargs is a 2. he is a type of dell curry good precision and quick release. but the problem is his defence... he is weak as perimeter defender. so I understand his struggle at the moment. he should be substitution for parker when delfino is also in the game to compensate on defence.

ink
12-16-2007, 09:33 PM
Bargs is not a 4. bosh is a 4 duncan is a 4. bargs is a 2. he is a type of dell curry good precision and quick release. but the problem is the defence where he is weak as perimeter defender. so I understand his struggle at the moment. he should be substitution for parker when delfino is also in the game to compensate on defence.

Just because he's a big who has some aspects of a SG's game doesn't mean he's a 2.

the life
12-16-2007, 09:41 PM
Just because he's a big who has some aspects of a SG's game doesn't mean he's a 2.
The problem is he does not have anything else than 2 skills.
is to slow and has not good ball handling for a three.
is to slow and not strong enough for a four. he does not play with just one hand to be able to move and score around the basket. his short jumper is less precise than the long jumper.
as 5 he stinks big time.
i don't see him as PG so the only left is 2

ink
12-16-2007, 09:42 PM
The problem is he does not have anything else than 2 skills.
is to slow and has not good ball handling for a three.
is to slow and not strong enough for a four. he does not play with just one hand to be able to move and score around the basket. his short jumper is less precise than the long jumper.
as 5 he stinks big time.
i don't see him as PG so the only left is 2

You don't think a SG needs speed and ball handling ability? Or speed and athleticism to defend all the other 2's in the league?

the life
12-16-2007, 09:58 PM
You don't think a SG needs speed and ball handling ability? Or speed and athleticism to defend all the other 2's in the league?

as SG you need speed but you need that speed for releasing the ball and getting open to shut. yes bags is slow moving with the ball but is faster without the ball. and he also gain some more time because he is a 7 footer and people need a bit more time to block a 7 footer at the three point line. so because of his frame he don't need to be lighting fast like regie miller use to be. so yes i think he can make a decent SG.

ink
12-16-2007, 10:06 PM
as SG you need speed but you need that speed for releasing the ball and getting open to shut. yes bags is slow moving with the ball but is faster without the ball. and he also gain some more time because he is a 7 footer and people need a bit more time to block a 7 footer at the three point line. so because of his frame he don't need to be lighting fast like regie miller use to be. so yes i think he can make a decent SG.

:eyebrow: He was drafted as a forward (http://www.nba.com/draft2006/profiles/AndreaBargnani.html). He's not a SG even if he happens to possess some of the characteristics of one. In fact, that's what makes a big like him special in the first place. So, instead of taking advantage of his unique shooting range, speed and ball handling ability FOR A BIG, you'd put him in against Kobe et all and let him match those skills against some of the most athletic SGs on the planet? I don't think so.

the life
12-16-2007, 10:21 PM
:eyebrow: He was drafted as a forward (http://www.nba.com/draft2006/profiles/AndreaBargnani.html). He's not a SG even if he happens to possess some of the characteristics of one. In fact, that's what makes a big like him special in the first place. So, instead of taking advantage of his unique shooting range, speed and ball handling ability FOR A BIG, you'd put him in against Kobe et all and let him match those skills against some of the most athletic SGs on the planet? I don't think so.

well think about this:

calderon
bargs
delfino
bosh
rasho

looks interesting at least on paper.

Halladay
12-17-2007, 12:30 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to Bargs playing some Small Forward. Why not?

ink
12-17-2007, 12:50 AM
Who the hell is the Raptors C of the future then? Without some power in the low post they'll be nothing more than a hot/cold jump shooting team and get absolutely nowhere.

LD V2.0
12-17-2007, 12:56 AM
The Pistons won a championship without a dominate low post scorer. Sheed is a face up guy who likes the perimeter and Big Ben wasn't asked to score anything more than junk baskets. They can win one without the big low post threat if they become an elite defensive team. I think based on the improvement from last season to now, they're on their way to that.

ink
12-17-2007, 12:59 AM
The Pistons won a championship without a dominate low post scorer. Sheed is a face up guy who likes the perimeter and Big Ben wasn't asked to score anything more than junk baskets. They can win one without the big low post threat if they become an elite defensive team. I think based on the improvement from last season to now, they're on their way to that.

What I'm talking about is someone who can dominate the paint when the shots aren't falling.

LD V2.0
12-17-2007, 01:00 AM
Yeah, I know and all I'm saying is that teams have got it done without that. The player you're talking about is rare and its possible that the Raptors won't find one and if they don't its not necessarily the end of the world.

ink
12-17-2007, 01:03 AM
Yeah, I know and all I'm saying is that teams have got it done without that. The player you're talking about is rare and its possible that the Raptors won't find one and if they don't its not necessarily the end of the world.

You're right. They are rare. But it's why the Bargnani situation is so frustrating. I'm supporting him, but we may be in for some really exasperating games. Look at Dirk, he's at his peak and he's still regarded as soft. We still have no one on the horizon who can play in the paint with authority. Maybe a banger is the answer, maybe not, but right now our offense is perimeter oriented and fairly easy to shut down ...

lovingTO
12-17-2007, 01:23 AM
The Pistons won a championship without a dominate low post scorer. Sheed is a face up guy who likes the perimeter and Big Ben wasn't asked to score anything more than junk baskets. They can win one without the big low post threat if they become an elite defensive team. I think based on the improvement from last season to now, they're on their way to that.

the pistons had amazing interior D...Bargs will never be a good interior defender

LD V2.0
12-17-2007, 01:33 AM
Never is harsh. You don't know that, the kid is only 22. Good defense doesn't depend on one man and if you look at the stats this team is ranked 9th in the league in defense. They've improved every year in that area since Sam took over as head coach. At 22 you just can't say what a player with that much talent and athleticism is limited to doing in the future. Let me remind you that he's 7'0-7'1", 245lbs and still filling out.

ink
12-17-2007, 01:35 AM
It's our offense that will continue to be easy to shut down.

Kaze
12-17-2007, 02:09 AM
well i dont think bargnani will do well at the 5 ... hes mentality just isnt there on the defensive end, doesnt matter if hes draining 3s, but defense wins championships.

i remember in another post saying that even though dirk's a 7 footer, theres no way dallas would play him at center, so given barg's and dirk's similarities, why do we think barg can play at the 5??

having said that, can we really play barg at the 3 or have him come off the bench as a 4? i think having him coming off the bench would be somewhat of a waste. i guess defense can improve with experience... or at least i hope so for barg's and rap's sake.

LittleBosh
12-17-2007, 10:04 AM
Who the hell is the Raptors C of the future then? Without some power in the low post they'll be nothing more than a hot/cold jump shooting team and get absolutely nowhere.

I second that. What's going on with Bargnani has me totally confused. He just doesn't seem suited to play the centre, it's against his mentality and natural instincts. Sure, with some time and extensive coaching, he may develop a utility big man in the mold of Okur or LaFrenz, but I doubt whether he can become nearly as good as Kaman. And again, why draft first overall a clearly perimeter oriented finesse big just to make him a mediocre centre? Didn't this team have enough jump shooters at the time? I remember Bosh saying before the draft that the last thing the Raps need is another shooter. He was clearly looking forward to drafting Aldridge.

Bob_at_york
12-17-2007, 11:26 AM
It's our offense that will continue to be easy to shut down.
I don't think our offense is easy to shut down. What makes you think that? :confused:

LittleBosh
12-17-2007, 01:59 PM
Big Rook or Big Soph is a Big Nothing right now

I was talking to someone high up on the staff yesterday about Bargnani and he said ďhe looks like he did the first two weeks of his career.Ē

Bargnani told Dave Feschuk yesterday that heís playing like poo Ė or something like that Ė and I guess if the first step to recovery is admitting youíve got a problem, heís on the right track.

But it was sort of telling that the first big off the bench the last two games has been Kris Humphries and when there was four minutes of garbage time Sunday, who got to play? Bargnani.

No idea how you get a guyís confidence back but watching Bargnani play yesterday it was obvious he has none.

I don't think they should trade him, or even take calls about people wanting him because his upside is so good. But garbage time? That's an indictment of how far he's fallen.


Source: Doug Smith's Raptors Blog

maxgraham
12-17-2007, 02:53 PM
its interesting... three weeks ago i thought differently.. but now.. seeing how many three point shooters we have... and seeing how bargs is developing (or not developing) the other parts of his game makes him seem suddenly so out of place on this team... if all he is is a three point shooter well, we have a few of those already...

Bob_at_york
12-17-2007, 03:28 PM
its interesting... three weeks ago i thought differently.. but now.. seeing how many three point shooters we have... and seeing how bargs is developing (or not developing) the other parts of his game makes him seem suddenly so out of place on this team... if all he is is a three point shooter well, we have a few of those already...

He isn't just a three-point shooter but it is his best weapon and if he doesn't use it then he becomes one-dimensional.

xAir Canadax
12-17-2007, 08:33 PM
I'mmmm corect me if I'm wrong but Yi is in his first year and gettin starting minutes plus Charlie V is behind Yi and still he is a starter....didn't we trade Charlie V so Andrea could play...Anyway
Andrea Bargnani is in his second year played in the playoffs and was the second option and can't play behind Kris Humpries..common..listen Kris is okay player but he aint no Andrea,play the kid,put him in the starting lineup..if he makes mistakes,so what...u got 2 give him some confindence.
Yi Jianlian makes mistakes all the time,but his playing...
I know Andrea was hurt,and he isn't playing that great,but let him get through it,even if we loose some games.
I blame Sam for this..Sam isn't puting him in good situation,and another thing when is the last time he got a play called for him,I sure don't remember.

P.S
I dont understand he uses every player on the bench, but Juan Dixon doesent get any playing time... :confused:
He must be in his dog house....

Dragan
12-17-2007, 10:33 PM
I'mmmm corect me if I'm wrong but Yi is in his first year and gettin starting minutes plus Charlie V is behind Yi and still he is a starter....didn't we trade Charlie V so Andrea could play...Anyway
Andrea Bargnani is in his second year played in the playoffs and was the second option and can't play behind Kris Humpries..common..listen Kris is okay player but he aint no Andrea,play the kid,put him in the starting lineup..if he makes mistakes,so what...u got 2 give him some confindence.
Yi Jianlian makes mistakes all the time,but his playing...
I know Andrea was hurt,and he isn't playing that great,but let him get through it,even if we loose some games.
I blame Sam for this..Sam isn't puting him in good situation,and another thing when is the last time he got a play called for him,I sure don't remember.

P.S
I dont understand he uses every player on the bench, but Juan Dixon doesent get any playing time... :confused:
He must be in his dog house....

well we dont need to put him in, becuse if we do he will strugle, and we will not play as well, and might loose a few. we are not in teh position where we need him as much as we did last year. We now got Kapono, Moon and Delphino to fill in for Andrea. He will have do develop that confidence in the limited minuts he gets. and CV3 has strugled since last year so that noting new. Also i think Andrea has more issiues than confidence, theres somthing afoot there.

BTW wellcome to the forum

Halladay
12-17-2007, 10:52 PM
We need to factor in that a guy barely into his sophmore year in the NBA will struggle. One thing that rookies or young players do is be inconsistent, and it's a roller coaster ride. Anyone who thought going into this season that Bargs would be a fringe all-star is sadly mistaken. We just need to be patient with him, right now it's just all mental with him.

ink
12-18-2007, 12:05 AM
I don't think our offense is easy to shut down. What makes you think that? :confused:

... by elite teams.

Dragan
12-18-2007, 01:11 AM
i still think that we need a coach for Bargnani. If he is goign tbe an allstar then invest a littel and give him somone who can work with him all the time. Look at Ming, he has a coach and he is allready a premeer player. Still Andreas slump is expected. SO lets just hope he gets out of it sooner then later, and preferably on this upcoming west coast trip.

Durant is hype
12-18-2007, 01:21 AM
I second that. What's going on with Bargnani has me totally confused. He just doesn't seem suited to play the centre, it's against his mentality and natural instincts. Sure, with some time and extensive coaching, he may develop a utility big man in the mold of Okur or LaFrenz, but I doubt whether he can become nearly as good as Kaman. And again, why draft first overall a clearly perimeter oriented finesse big just to make him a mediocre centre? Didn't this team have enough jump shooters at the time? I remember Bosh saying before the draft that the last thing the Raps need is another shooter. He was clearly looking forward to drafting Aldridge.


nah Bc should have drafted Roy.

Afrizzle
12-18-2007, 02:20 AM
I think Portland hit big in that draft...to tell you the honest truth Bargnani hasn't impressed me at all this season...sure hes yound and we can use this excuse till our faces turn blue but you have to look at work ethic too....look at Brandon Roy and Aldridge....they both got better for this season ...aldrige is dominating.....Barganani seems to be the same player he was last year with little imporvement or additions to his game....thats totally lame like i was hoping for hig things from him....i hope it all works out cuz right now hes looking more like a future Radmanovich than Dirk

l8tr
12-18-2007, 02:35 AM
I think Portland hit big in that draft...to tell you the honest truth Bargnani hasn't impressed me at all this season...sure hes yound and we can use this excuse till our faces turn blue but you have to look at work ethic too....look at Brandon Roy and Aldridge....they both got better for this season ...aldrige is dominating.....Barganani seems to be the same player he was last year with little imporvement or additions to his game....thats totally lame like i was hoping for hig things from him....i hope it all works out cuz right now hes looking more like a future Radmanovich than Dirk

He hasn't been that bad really. Remember the second game of this season against New Jersey when Bargnani hit the 3 and then drove to the basket and then hit another 3. We all thought, wow, Bargs is really showing his development. Now, I don't want to sound critical here, but whenever Mitchell had gone to Bargnani earlier in the first few games we got some good numbers from him, he is like 3 in scoring on the Raptors, but Mitchell for some reason doesn't want to leave him out there whenever he makes a little mistake and as a result takes him out. He starts losing confidence and now he's disappearing. Mitchell is really to blame for Bargnani's development because he says one thing about bringing Bargnani in and eventually having him start, and now he's just disappeared behind the bench. Mitchell has fallen in love with everybody else on the team and I think this isn't good on Bargnani. I think Bosh should have a talk with Bargnani because he might just be psyching himself out.

xAir Canadax
12-18-2007, 02:47 AM
Boy oh Boy....that's a low blow,that hurts.
Brandon Roy and L.Aldridge...and don't forget about Rudy Gay.
I bet Chris Bosh every time he plays portland just thinks about that moment of time,what if.
I think Andrea will turn it around,but I don't think his gonna turn out 2 the next Dirk Nowitski,let's just hope he ain't Kwame Brown,god help us.

Dragan
12-18-2007, 02:50 AM
I think Portland hit big in that draft...to tell you the honest truth Bargnani hasn't impressed me at all this season...sure hes yound and we can use this excuse till our faces turn blue but you have to look at work ethic too....look at Brandon Roy and Aldridge....they both got better for this season ...aldrige is dominating.....Barganani seems to be the same player he was last year with little imporvement or additions to his game....thats totally lame like i was hoping for hig things from him....i hope it all works out cuz right now hes looking more like a future Radmanovich than Dirk

LOLLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
WOW now thast an insult. He is no Radmanovic that for shure. What you are doing now is pressing the panic buton. Dont.

BTW Dirk was SHI@ in his 2nd year. Not only that, if Andrea was a flop to be he would't have preformed so well last season.

kuktahamham
12-18-2007, 07:10 AM
Man, I'm looking back and I think what if we had drafted Aldridge and even if we didn't want him we could have traded him for Roy who wasn't as hyped up as aldridge or we could have kept aldridge and traded charlie for Roy(I think they would have done it then).

Look, I don't hate bargs, it's just that he doesn't fit in this system, and I don't see him fitting in our system if we want to be contenders(even dallas has real C's).

I'm getting worried, and if we don't act fast, then we will look like fools in the future for drafting bargs while the blazers start dominating when oden comes back.

Maybe this is like if portland drafted MJ instead of Sam bowie at 2, and maybe Bryan wants him to be the future, instead of Bosh(which I don't like).
I don't know, maybe he's having his second year woes or w/e.
what do you guys think

kuktahamham
12-18-2007, 07:37 AM
guys, don't think this will ever happen, but would you trade bargs for Chris Kaman?
Please think long and hard on this one.

killersweet
12-18-2007, 10:44 AM
What is Arvydas Sabonis doing these days? May be we should get him to coach bargnani. And don't blame sam Mitch for bargnani's woes. It is easy to blame the coach. But players have to work hard to fit in to the system!

canzano55
12-18-2007, 01:15 PM
He just needs to stand up straight on his shots and not move around like an idiot. If he just kept doing the simple thing consistently he could be one most effective scorers in the NBA.

Its all up to Bargs.

Dragan
12-18-2007, 05:08 PM
guys, don't think this will ever happen, but would you trade bargs for Chris Kaman?
Please think long and hard on this one.

:eyebrow: :shush:

ink
12-18-2007, 05:22 PM
guys, don't think this will ever happen, but would you trade bargs for Chris Kaman?
Please think long and hard on this one.

The question is "would the Clippers do it?"

Bob_at_york
12-18-2007, 05:35 PM
From Doug Smith's blog:


Maybe itís time for a good wrestling match?

I take you back just over a year, Nov. 19, 2006 in Denver to be exact, when Andrea Bargnaniís rookie season turned around, as did the opinion of coach Sam Mitchell held of him.

It was an off-day on a west coast trip and the Raptors had sucked. Mitchell had no idea whether the No. 1 pick was tough enough to play in the NBA and the kid really didnít know how tough the NBA was every night.

The bigs all went to a local gym, one ball, four or five games (the memory blurs on that point); ball put in paint, two bigs told to go get it, guy could do almost anything he wanted to win.

Bargnani impressed enough with his desire that Mitchell gave him a big run the next night in Utah and the kidís season sort of took off from there.

I mentioned that night to a coach last week and his eyes twinkled. ďYeah, put him in there with Joey, see who comes out.Ē

Not sure Samíll do it again, thatís the kind of drill that works once, but it might be something to try.

LD V2.0
12-18-2007, 05:52 PM
guys, don't think this will ever happen, but would you trade bargs for Chris Kaman?
Please think long and hard on this one.

No way. Kaman is having a strong year but I honestly believe Andrea is just in a slump and he's going to pull out of it. Before his operation last season he showed some great things.

Dragan
12-18-2007, 06:06 PM
Why would you trade a cave man for Andrea. WTF?????????????????????????????????????????????? Its like deciding to trade in a Ferrrari wid an empty tank of fule for a ford Taurus. That being said let Andrea get his confidence back.

Remember how after Bosh's 1st season everyone was saying he would only become a good role player noting else, now hes an allstar. The talent is there, let Andrea develop, and give him a year or 2 and then lets jump to a conclusion. Its still too soon.

Dragan
12-18-2007, 06:09 PM
BTW id over-pay motombo to come here after he retires, or get Sobonis. and hope that andrea can develop a mean side and start throwing those elbows arround. LOL that would be great.

Honest Truth
12-18-2007, 11:31 PM
Getting slightly off topic but the problem with Bargnani is the way Sam Mitchell is using/treating him. He is playing sporadic minutes and a shooter needs consistent shots to rediscover his form after an injury. He is not getting those shots because Mitchell yanks him after ANY mistake. His confidence as a result is shot as he is constantly concerned about making a mistake leading to a vicious cycle. He will snap out of it but it will take some consistent minutes to do it. Not just 2 minutes here and 2 minutes there but consistent playing time. I know you guys are likely going to say Mitchell yanks him because he makes mistakes on D but how is he going to learn without making these mistakes? Instead Mitchell allows Humphries (and yes, I hate him) to take fade-away jumpers as if he was Micheal Jordan! Man, it burns me up! Give Bargnani playing time to learn and he will cure his illness.

Fion
12-19-2007, 05:03 AM
for kaman? in a second, but the clippers would have to be insane to do it.

aporo
12-19-2007, 06:06 AM
give the guy time !

in his first year he performed better because not to many teams knew what he was all about but after hurting all those teams there is scouting report on him now.

Andrea's job now is to step up and expand his game. (after he is 100% healthy from the injury on his knee.)

Remember big man take time to develop, so give the kid time to show what he is all about.

Fion
12-19-2007, 11:14 AM
give the guy time !

in his first year he performed better because not to many teams knew what he was all about but after hurting all those teams there is scouting report on him now.

Andrea's job now is to step up and expand his game. (after he is 100% healthy from the injury on his knee.)

Remember big man take time to develop, so give the kid time to show what he is all about.

the single biggest and most important reason we owe this kid time is that if he does develop and we had traded him that would have been a really stupid thing. OUr chips are on the table and we have to see how it cashs out, give it time-bc at this stage its still up int he air. Im not expecting much from bargs, but i would be mega upset if he was traded and then bust out.

Fion
12-19-2007, 11:14 AM
give the guy time !

in his first year he performed better because not to many teams knew what he was all about but after hurting all those teams there is scouting report on him now.

Andrea's job now is to step up and expand his game. (after he is 100% healthy from the injury on his knee.)

Remember big man take time to develop, so give the kid time to show what he is all about.

the single biggest and most important reason we owe this kid time is that if he does develop and we had traded him that would have been a really stupid thing. OUr chips are on the table and we have to see how it cashs out, give it time-bc at this stage its still up int he air. Im not expecting much from bargs, but i would be mega upset if he was traded and then bust out.

http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Basketball/2007/12/19/4731847-sun.html

cdnsportsfan
12-19-2007, 12:31 PM
Bargs still isn't back producing a lot on the offensive side, but his D was much better last night!

Dragan
12-19-2007, 01:45 PM
kayman is a mumbs ars. look at him last night, how easily Rasho neutralised him. why do we need him, he gets so easily fristrated, where as brags can develop the inside game and if that aint goign pop up some 3s. in 2 seasons when hes an allstar id like to cee ur faces then.

XxAir CanadaxX
12-20-2007, 01:46 AM
The guy sucks,I tried sticking buy him,I can't anymore.
He is the next Kwame Brown,period..maybe even worse Sam Bowie...
There is no progress with him,he looks lost,confused,doesent play D,doesent Rebound,just brutal.He is useless.

Draft 2006

Brandon Roy
L. Aldridge
Rudy Gay

Bryan Colengaelo if you can get something for this guy,do it before it's 2 late.
put Tj Ford in the deal 2,go get Kobe Bryant.
You want 2 compete with Boston,Detroit,San Antonio...you need a superstar..

thomas1
12-20-2007, 02:43 AM
I was fending for Bargnani until today when I read Gherardini's comment today. Something like Andrea is spent from playing in the summer, that is just outrageous.
And as a diehard fan I have to stop and ask based on what then the coaching staff (not to mention front office of course) decided Andrea Bargnani should start at center this early???????

After all we are suffering now(less than stellar start of the season) because someone saw fit to play a seven foot shooting forward at the center position.
Gherardini's comment has to be looked at carefully, he is tacitly saying don't expect much from Bargnani this season or at least in the short term.

On the other hand coaching staff has to give him consistent minutes at the five spot (obviously off the bench) over a reasonable period of time and then assess. But the way they are playing him now is doing no body a service even if they want to trade him its hurting his value big time.

Sam should realize that one of the reasons he got his coach of the year award is because Andrea played well and helped the team win games.

Honest Truth
12-20-2007, 09:21 AM
The guy sucks,I tried sticking buy him,I can't anymore.
He is the next Kwame Brown,period..maybe even worse Sam Bowie...
There is no progress with him,he looks lost,confused,doesent play D,doesent Rebound,just brutal.He is useless.

Draft 2006

Brandon Roy
L. Aldridge
Rudy Gay

Bryan Colengaelo if you can get something for this guy,do it before it's 2 late.
put Tj Ford in the deal 2,go get Kobe Bryant.
You want 2 compete with Boston,Detroit,San Antonio...you need a superstar..

I look forward to seeing you on the bandwagon once he turns things around!

Honest Truth
12-20-2007, 09:23 AM
I was fending for Bargnani until today when I read Gherardini's comment today. Something like Andrea is spent from playing in the summer, that is just outrageous.
And as a diehard fan I have to stop and ask based on what then the coaching staff (not to mention front office of course) decided Andrea Bargnani should start at center this early???????

After all we are suffering now(less than stellar start of the season) because someone saw fit to play a seven foot shooting forward at the center position.
Gherardini's comment has to be looked at carefully, he is tacitly saying don't expect much from Bargnani this season or at least in the short term.

On the other hand coaching staff has to give him consistent minutes at the five spot (obviously off the bench) over a reasonable period of time and then assess. But the way they are playing him now is doing no body a service even if they want to trade him its hurting his value big time.

Sam should realize that one of the reasons he got his coach of the year award is because Andrea played well and helped the team win games.


Bravo! I couldn't agree more. The problem as I have been mentioning multiple times is not with Andrea himself necessarily but rather the way he is being used. I am getting to the point where I'd almost rather see him traded away than have his career destroyed by Sam Mitchell.

maxgraham
12-20-2007, 10:14 AM
wow this is getting bad...

killersweet
12-20-2007, 10:18 AM
Bravo! I couldn't agree more. The problem as I have been mentioning multiple times is not with Andrea himself necessarily but rather the way he is being used. I am getting to the point where I'd almost rather see him traded away than have his career destroyed by Sam Mitchell.

I donít think you can blame Sam for Bargnaniís woes. The guy simply sucks at this point. He has no confidence in his shots, he is committing silly fouls and looks totally out of place. If he is hurting raptors on the court, how can sam continue to play the guy? It is not like we are rebuilding lottery team, where we can take more losses to give young guys playing time. Bargnani gotta work his demons out and start to focus on his game. Only he can redeem himself like last year. No excuses!

LD V2.0
12-20-2007, 11:01 AM
Dec 19 Raptors assistant GM Maurizio Gherardini, who recruited Bargnani for Benetton Treviso prior to both of them ending up in Toronto, believes that Bargnani's poor recent play is the result of exhaustion, the Toronto Sun reports.

Recommendation: "Both physically and mentally," Gherardini said. "This was the first season in his career that he didn't stop over the summer (Bargnani played for Italy at the European championships) and those two months might have carried over into the season." There wouldn't seem to be a solution here, as the Raptors can't afford to simply bench him and let him rest, but at least Bargnani doesn't seem to be hiding a serious injury.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4129/news


As I was saying earlier, he could just be tired from all that ball. Although, that may not explain why he played bad through all of the FIBA tournament.

canzano55
12-20-2007, 02:08 PM
As I was saying earlier, he could just be tired from all that ball. Although, that may not explain who he played bad through all of the FIBA tournament.



After all we are suffering now(less than stellar start of the season) because someone saw fit to play a seven foot shooting forward at the center position.
Gherardini's comment has to be looked at carefully,[B]he is tacitly saying don't expect much from Bargnani this season or at least in the short term.

This is such a cop out it almost provokes a level of conspiracy.

It is blatantly obvious that Bargnani's development at 5 is a detriment to this teams short term aspirations and there really is no quick fix here. Its not like we can take Bargs and put him back at the 3 rotation because Delfino and even Gaham have been producing well. On top of that there's Kapono who has been very effective when the opposition whores out on the zone.

Bargnani is slowly and effectively seeing his sophomore season evaporate in front of his eyes. Now I'm not saying he should be traded but I'd be open to the idea of having him play some D- league ball to get back his barrings because right now he's a total waste.

LittleBosh
12-20-2007, 06:51 PM
Now I'm not saying he should be traded but I'd be open to the idea of having him play some D- league ball to get back his barrings because right now he's a total waste.

That would be insane. BC selects Barg first overall passing up on the likes of Aldridge, Roy, Gay and Foye just to send him to D-league the next season. It would be an official confirmation of Barg being a mega bust followed by an instant loss of credibility throughout the league.

thomas1
12-20-2007, 07:14 PM
I donít think you can blame Sam for Bargnaniís woes. The guy simply sucks at this point. He has no confidence in his shots, he is committing silly fouls and looks totally out of place. If he is hurting raptors on the court, how can sam continue to play the guy? It is not like we are rebuilding lottery team, where we can take more losses to give young guys playing time. Bargnani gotta work his demons out and start to focus on his game. Only he can redeem himself like last year. No excuses!

Sam holds part of the blame, when we were playing Dallas in Dallas Bargniani put on a show he hit like 3-4 from behind the arc. But because he wasn't covering MVP (Dirk N) effectively he got him out of the game. Why ?????

Does he think Andrea is capable of guarding Dirk come on!! and if he isn't how is he suppose to guard him in the next match they play each other???? is he going to learn that from watching on the bench!!!

This team is built around Bosh our primary and sometimes only scorer rebounder shot blocker and the only one who gets consistently to the line. We need another big that can take some of these responsibilities.

Andrea was picked for this reason and accordingly has to play more minutes and then someone unbiased (e.g. not Maurizio Gehrardini) should assess his prospects at the forward center position.

LD V2.0
12-20-2007, 07:58 PM
Bargnani is slowly and effectively seeing his sophomore season evaporate in front of his eyes. Now I'm not saying he should be traded but I'd be open to the idea of having him play some D- league ball to get back his barrings because right now he's a total waste.

I think thats a horrible idea with so many negative consequences. When his shots start falling again all will be well.

LD V2.0
12-20-2007, 08:00 PM
Andrea doesn't have the luxury Bosh had. He isn't playing for a lotto team as the #1 option. When Bargnani stumbles he gets hooked but when Bosh stumbles he was allowed to play through it.

killersweet
12-20-2007, 08:09 PM
Sam holds part of the blame, when we were playing Dallas in Dallas Bargniani put on a show he hit like 3-4 from behind the arc. But because he wasn't covering MVP (Dirk N) effectively he got him out of the game. Why ?????

Does he think Andrea is capable of guarding Dirk come on!! and if he isn't how is he suppose to guard him in the next match they play each other???? is he going to learn that from watching on the bench!!!

This team is built around Bosh our primary and sometimes only scorer rebounder shot blocker and the only one who gets consistently to the line. We need another big that can take some of these responsibilities.

Andrea was picked for this reason and accordingly has to play more minutes and then someone unbiased (e.g. not Maurizio Gehrardini) should assess his prospects at the forward center position.

well, Sam does some weird moves during certain games. But as a player Andrea has to work hard on his shots and his low post game. Even when plays are run through him, he makes a major mental errors. He doesn't seem to have the same attitude he had last season (before the injury struck). He is losing focus so many times. He is our #1 pick and he should be given more playing time to develop. But unfortunately expectations are high on raptors and they have established a spot for them in the eastern conference. Last season Sam was able to give Andrea time to play, cuz noone expected the raptors to do anything significant. I don't know how raptors are gonna develop this potential star player. But bottom line is that they gotta figure out a way to improve this guy. otherwise our #1 pick would be a waste

PapaSucre
12-20-2007, 09:50 PM
Fact of the matter is Hump and Rasho are playing better defence with more hustle and rebounding. Add in Bosh and that doesnt leave alot of mins for struggling Bargnani.

canzano55
12-21-2007, 12:55 AM
Why is D league ball such a bad idea?

The D league is an environment for players to develop parts of their game for a limited time. And its not exactly a league full of scrubs either when you consider that a large portion of them were good college players.

Bargs could work on the 5 the whole time and get to know the role better until the Raps see fit for him to return. D league ball is a better option than whats going on now which is basically him playing 8 - 10 minutes in a position he's totally unfamiliar with.

Bob_at_york
12-21-2007, 11:22 AM
Why is D league ball such a bad idea?

The D league is an environment for players to develop parts of their game for a limited time. And its not exactly a league full of scrubs either when you consider that a large portion of them were good college players.

Bargs could work on the 5 the whole time and get to know the role better until the Raps see fit for him to return. D league ball is a better option than whats going on now which is basically him playing 8 - 10 minutes in a position he's totally unfamiliar with.

One benefit I see from the d-league idea is that Bargs could get to play 30 minutes a game and I think something like that would help him get into a rhythm again and therefore help him get his confidence back.

LD V2.0
12-21-2007, 11:25 AM
It may hurt the player/team relationship however. This isn't some 2nd rounder we're talking about, this is a 1st overall pick in the entry draft. It may also further hurt his confidence.

Bob_at_york
12-21-2007, 11:40 AM
It may hurt the player/team relationship however. This isn't some 2nd rounder we're talking about, this is a 1st overall pick in the entry draft. It may also further hurt his confidence.

you think his confidence can get lower? I think if they talk to him about it and explain to him that they need him to go down there and get into a rhythm because he nees playing time, then I think he will understand.

LD V2.0
12-21-2007, 12:04 PM
Regardless I don't see it happening, do you?

Bob_at_york
12-21-2007, 12:14 PM
Regardless I don't see it happening, do you?

I don't but that doesn't mean it isn't the right move.

ink
12-21-2007, 12:19 PM
you think his confidence can get lower? I think if they talk to him about it and explain to him that they need him to go down there and get into a rhythm because he nees playing time, then I think he will understand.

He hasn't responded positively at all to being demoted to the second unit. You can trace his poor play to around that time. I can just imagine how much damage there would be if he was sent to the D League.

gbus
12-21-2007, 12:23 PM
He hasn't responded positively at all to being demoted to the second unit. You can trace his poor play to around that time. I can just imagine how much damage there would be if he was sent to the D League.

This is the way I see it. It wouldn't be a good idea.

LD V2.0
12-21-2007, 12:26 PM
I don't but that doesn't mean it isn't the right move.

You maybe right, maybe not but I think the fact that he's a #1 overall pick keeps him with the club. He's bound to come around. He's a scorer and as soon had he starts hitting shots the troubles will fade.

Bob_at_york
12-21-2007, 12:26 PM
He hasn't responded positively at all to being demoted to the second unit. You can trace his poor play to around that time. I can just imagine how much damage there would be if he was sent to the D League.

While true, he has performed at his best when he is in the starting lineup, I think the real problem is that he hasn't gotten himself back in form since his knee injury. He needs to get more playing time to feel comfortable. When he was originally demoted to the bench, he still played the same style of game shooting 3s and such but that has changed since his knee injury.

ink
12-21-2007, 12:39 PM
While true, he has performed at his best when he is in the starting lineup, I think the real problem is that he hasn't gotten himself back in form since his knee injury. He needs to get more playing time to feel comfortable. When he was originally demoted to the bench, he still played the same style of game shooting 3s and such but that has changed since his knee injury.

I agree that it seems to be tied to the injury. I remember when he got back from his appendectomy in the playoffs last year. For a couple of games he looked shaky - just like he is now. Somehow, though, he found it in himself to find his game quickly and he started to contribute big time. I still keep hoping he'll do the same thing, but it just hasn't happened. I still think the other factor is that he's completely screwed up mentally because he is a natural 4 and was riding on natural abilities. He just hasn't responded well to his new role or the coaching that's come with it. I'm just not sure if he has any other game in him. And now that natural game of his is gone too because his confidence is shot. Tough situation.

killersweet
12-21-2007, 01:56 PM
In theory D-League idea might look decent. But in reality I donít think it will happen. There is a certain status quo that comes with the #1 pick and I think sending him to D-League this early in his career might be disastrous. I know his confidence is quite low right now, but D-League might totally damage his morale with the team. I think he should some how work through his problems and hopefully regain his confidence back! Also may be we can get a coach to teach him some big man skills? He is a big investment, so raptors gotta do something about him for sure.

LD V2.0
12-21-2007, 02:46 PM
While true, he has performed at his best when he is in the starting lineup, I think the real problem is that he hasn't gotten himself back in form since his knee injury. He needs to get more playing time to feel comfortable. When he was originally demoted to the bench, he still played the same style of game shooting 3s and such but that has changed since his knee injury.

Well, good shooters use their legs a lot and if Bargnani's leg aren't into his shot then theres his problem. I haven't seen many full games over the past few weeks so I haven't really been able to pay attention to how he's shooting the ball.

Bob_at_york
12-21-2007, 03:02 PM
Well, good shooters use their legs a lot and if Bargnani's leg aren't into his shot then theres his problem. I haven't seen many full games over the past few weeks so I haven't really been able to pay attention to how he's shooting the ball.

And I think he needs more burn to get that fixed and that isn't happening at the NBA level unless we have a blowout.

Honest Truth
12-21-2007, 08:35 PM
And I think he needs more burn to get that fixed and that isn't happening at the NBA level unless we have a blowout.

And even then he is not getting the PT. I don't get it! I know it is not ALL about his PT and largely due to his injury (this is my guess as well) but what does Sam Mitchell have against this kid? I feel that is a personal. I just get that feeling though I am sure (and I hope) I am wrong.

Ragun
12-21-2007, 09:16 PM
because raptors are trying to win now. Bargnani makes to many mistakes as of late. He turns over the ball a lot and raptors overall are good at not turning over the ball.

Fion
12-22-2007, 01:23 AM
you know i was thinking, this is what , humpries 4th season in the nba? and this has been his breakout season, and he was a 10th pick, he did nothing his first two years, and not enough last year.
Really, if you think about it that might be the same with bargs, players do have late burst out years.
I mean he is playing worse now than in his rookie year, but im sure in the literal sense he is a better player.

ink
12-26-2007, 06:08 PM
"Expectations on a player who is in his teens or early 20's in this league need to be tempered," said Seattle Supersonics head coach P.J. Carlesimo. "These guys are just learning."

Carlesimo was an assistant last season with the NBA Champion San Antonio Spurs and holds Bargnani in high regard having watched him many times.

"Toronto was one of my scouts last year," remarked Carlesimo referring to his job as an assistant coach and doing the bulk of the advance preparation for an upcoming opponent. "I saw the kid in Europe and then last year live and on tape and it doesn't matter if he had one bad game or 20 bad games in a row. I think he's going to be a very good player."

It is high praise coming from a coach who has worked with young players including Tony Parker and is currently shaping the NBA future of this past draft's second overall selection, Kevin Durant. Add to that Bargnani is a big man and big players usually take more time to develop and it all adds up to Toronto fans needing to exercise some patience.

Source: Sportsnet (http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/2007/12/26/jones_bargnani/)

PapaSucre
12-26-2007, 10:22 PM
Well now that Andrea has been puplicly announced as the starting center from here on out....looks like BC probably whispered something in Sam's ear.

LD V2.0
12-27-2007, 02:25 PM
I think you can take out probably and replace it with definitely. Mitchell hasn't operated like this in the past. He doesn't reward poor play and inconsistent efforts. Colangelo turned the screws on Mitchell last year and got Bargnani good minutes. Now it looks like he's doing it again. I want to see Bargnani do well but I don't believe starting him every game is positive to the team. Some times it could be but I would much rather see Rasho on guys like Curry, Dalmebert and Howard than having Bargnani guard them.

AirMyles
12-28-2007, 01:12 PM
If starting him now will make us a better team in 2 years but cost us a couple games now I'll take it. If we want to be the contenders we all think this team is capable of becoming in a couple years, this guy is going to need the minutes that are going to make him improve his game.

HoopsMachine
12-29-2007, 05:53 AM
Like most people here stated already the increased PT for him is to iron out his mistakes. Though it's tough to see a player get more minutes despite his poor performances, he is part of what BC states is the core and future of the team so it's integral that he get the on court experience to develop. He's too talented to remain in his current slump. Like LD mentioned earlier, I really don't like him going up against stronger C's like Curry and Howard but it will at least give him experience and make him tougher since he will get used to playing against them. I think keeping him away from those challenges will hinder his growth as a player.

cdnsportsfan
12-29-2007, 11:44 AM
It's a tough move to make but looks to be one to help Bargs improve his game overall - and he did put in a much better outing last night, so hey that's good to see! Bargs has the potential and who knows, maybe it'll take something like this for him to realize it. The increased PT should bode well for him, give him far more consistency. Peyton Manning took every snap his rookie season, even when times were tough - worked out well for him! (alright, so clearly they're NOT the same players in their respective leagues, but both are players who came in with great potential, that's all I'm getting at here)

Bargs will have a real tough time against the big C's around the league for sure, but I agree that I'd like to see a move like this should it help improve the team in the long run, even if it does cost us a few games right now. This team can't be thinking NBA Championship THIS season, but has to have that kind of goal set for a couple seasons down the road imho. I still have faith in BC, hasn't let me down yet!

kobeFan1991
01-06-2008, 04:04 AM
I was just browsing the Stats on NBA.com, and I was wondering...

how does a guy who is 7ft tall and 250lbs. only manage to 3.5 Rebounds and .6 blocks a game in 24 minutes?

Im talking about Andrea Bargnani. no offense or anything, Im just asking because some guards below 6ft average more than that (i.e. Chris Paul, Allen Iverson)

marvILLous
01-06-2008, 04:40 AM
its unfortunate really :(

lovingTO
01-06-2008, 08:04 AM
People are driving me crazy in here. ALL we need Barg's to do is play better defense at the 5. His offensive game is mostly perimeter oriented and no one is going to ask him to stop using that beautiful jump shot of his and play under the net. Sure he needs to learn to get the basket a bit more, but most young players have problems doing that anyways. We all know he capable of doing that better.

The player Bargs Will end up being(which I am quite satisfied with)

20ppg 46%fg 44% 3fg
5-6 boards
3 assists
1 block



Bargnani is a shooter. His gift of shooting got him to the nba. Everyone here is talking like we need to drastically alter him...so he can stand under the basket like DHow. He is capable of standing outside on offense...jacking up his 3's, getting to the basket when his man decides to come out on him, and then just playing 7 footer defense on the other side of the court. We know he can do all these thing, though learning to play good D will be his biggest test. We don't need to alter the player, just polish him. This team will need a premier rebounding 3 if they ever want to be competing for titles.

lovingTO
01-06-2008, 08:10 AM
People are driving me crazy in here. ALL we need Barg's to do is to learn to play better defense and he will be an amazing 5. His offensive game is mostly perimeter oriented and no one is going to ask him to stop using that beautiful jump shot of his and play under the net. Sure he needs to learn to get the basket a bit more, but most young players have problems doing that anyways. We all know he capable of doing that better(we saw it the other night against det).

The player Bargs Will end up being(which I am quite satisfied with)

20ppg 46%fg 44% 3fg
5-6 boards
3 assists
1 block

A 7 foot center playing the perimeter opens up the middle for the rest of the team! Only a big man can cover bargs when he plays outside, which means one less big man in the middle when say, Ford, is going to the hoop. Him standing outside can be quite valuable to this team.

Bargnani is a shooter. His gift of shooting got him to the nba. Everyone here is talking like we need to drastically alter him...so he can stand under the basket like DHow. He is capable of standing outside on offense...jacking up his 3's, getting to the basket when his man decides to come out on him, and then just playing 7 footer defense on the other side of the court. We know he can do all these thing, though learning to play good D will be his biggest test. We don't need to alter the player, just polish him. This team will need a premier rebounding 3 if they ever want to be competing for titles.

LD V2.0
01-06-2008, 10:36 AM
6 boards a game would be acceptable considering he's virtually never going to get offensive boards because Sam has him out on the perimeter all night long.

Ragun
01-06-2008, 12:43 PM
bargnani has been getting really aggressive lately. pretty much no center in the league can guard him. i think he will average about 7-10 boards, just like Nowitzki.

Bob_at_york
01-06-2008, 12:58 PM
I was just browsing the Stats on NBA.com, and I was wondering...

how does a guy who is 7ft tall and 250lbs. only manage to 3.5 Rebounds and .6 blocks a game in 24 minutes?

Im talking about Andrea Bargnani. no offense or anything, Im just asking because some guards below 6ft average more than that (i.e. Chris Paul, Allen Iverson)

Well as you pointed out he is only playing 24 minutes a game. Also because of the style of his offensive game he rarely gets offensive rebounds. Also on the defensive end he gets called for fouls which limits some of his rebounding but overall he just isn't a good rebounder. I think part of the time is because he is 7ft tall. In Europe he didn't have to go get the ball and people are out-working him for rebounds over here. He needs to get rid of that habit.

Dol-Fan
01-06-2008, 01:43 PM
Well as you pointed out he is only playing 24 minutes a game. Also because of the style of his offensive game he rarely gets offensive rebounds. Also on the defensive end he gets called for fouls which limits some of his rebounding but overall he just isn't a good rebounder. I think part of the time is because he is 7ft tall. In Europe he didn't have to go get the ball and people are out-working him for rebounds over here. He needs to get rid of that habit.

It's all an adjustment for Andrea, if he could average 6 defensive boards a night we would be a very successful team, as long as Moon is grabbing 6-8 as well. I would like to see Andrea come out and state that he will work on his rebounding over the course of a summer, just as Chris Bosh has focused in on certain parts of his game each summer.

I really hope he can make the adjustment, anyone that tall with his athleticism can grab rebounds, he just needs to want it more. I'm still not sold on him being the future C for this team.

ink
12-21-2008, 03:34 PM
It's all an adjustment for Andrea, if he could average 6 defensive boards a night we would be a very successful team, as long as Moon is grabbing 6-8 as well. I would like to see Andrea come out and state that he will work on his rebounding over the course of a summer, just as Chris Bosh has focused in on certain parts of his game each summer.

I really hope he can make the adjustment, anyone that tall with his athleticism can grab rebounds, he just needs to want it more. I'm still not sold on him being the future C for this team.

So 6 months passes ...

Bargnani goes out and works on a ton of things in the off-season to get himself ready to be a more effective NBA big. Then he gets shoved into the starting lineup at the 3. Must suck to be used as if he's the Raptors' utility man. Tough to develop that way.

Interesting thread to look at in hindsight ...

nearyG
12-21-2008, 04:20 PM
Wow, you people are very optimistic. I'm a raptor fan and I am not delusional enough to think Bargnani has all-star potential. All of you comparing him to Dirk--LOOK AT THE NUMBERS. Third year, Dirk was a 20 point, 7 rebound a night guy. We need to trade Bargs while he still has some value. He is a 7-foot, awkward small-forward who doesn't play perimeter defense. He will never play center with any effectiveness. He could play power forward for maybe Nellie in G-state, but other than that, he sucks

ink
12-21-2008, 04:22 PM
Wow, you people are very optimistic. I'm a raptor fan and I am not delusional enough to think Bargnani has all-star potential. All of you comparing him to Dirk--LOOK AT THE NUMBERS. Third year, Dirk was a 20 point, 7 rebound a night guy. We need to trade Bargs while he still has some value. He is a 7-foot, awkward small-forward who doesn't play perimeter defense. He will never play center with any effectiveness. He could play power forward for maybe Nellie in G-state, but other than that, he sucks

I think you missed the point. The thread is not about whether he has all-star potential. It was bumped back up to take a look at a discussion we were having last season where most of us said he was a natural PF.