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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    Iím not complaining the game is too hard just that I donít think players will adjust, and they donít really seem like they have.
    Then the defensive strategy is working and good for the defenses and pitching staffs that have worked hard on this.

    It's the hitters faults for not adjusting back.

    The shift just allows for lower batting averages and higher home runs. It feels like all players are home run or bust, no other action. The shift is partially responsible for that.
    The data revolution has a lot more to do with that than anything else.

    Teams know guys like Adam Dunn are more valuable offensively than Ichiro. Ichiro is a lot more exciting, but from the offensive stand point only, Dunn produces way more being a three outcome hitter. So teams have started to look for guys like that.

    The ball in play average in 2017 was .300
    In 2007 it was .303
    In 1997 it was .301
    In 1987 it was .289

    Somebody is still managing to get base hits.

    We def wonít see eye to eye on this no matter what lol.
    Probably not.

    I see it as a strategy, just like bunting. Would you consider outlawing bunting because it allows an offensive strategy to advance runners, puts the ball in play with action, and removes the pitchers ability to get a strike out and the third basemen has to make a difficult play? Or did you grow up at a time when that was already happening and it wasn't a strategy to adjust to?

    Shifting is the same thing. You are deploying a strategy to beat your opponent. Which is what this game should and always has been. Hell, there were people that wanting curveballs banned when they showed up.

    You can put those 7 fielders wherever you want to try and prevent hits and offense. If there is an extreme shift on a left handed hitter for example, then you gotta learn and practice hitting the ball the other way. You have to adjust. If you can't adjust, this league isn't for you in the first place.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 06-19-2018 at 05:55 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    That it largely doesn't matter where the defense is playing, hitting the ball hard is only part of the job of hitting overall. Your job is to reach base. And as Willie Keeler famously said, hit it where they ain't.
    I feel like the use of that trite phrase misses out on something quite important. it was far far easier to hit it where they ain't when the phrase was used than it is now.

    btw, have you seen how he handled the bat? would you have an interest in seeing 9 ichiro suzukis in a lineup?

    don't get me wrong, I don't object to phasing out the mo vaughns of the league but saying that the pitchers and defenses have adjusted and now the hitters have to ... that's all well and good but the adjustment on the pitching and defense side is nothing compared to the challenge the hitters are tasked with. these are not comparable adjustments.

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    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 06-19-2018 at 06:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    I feel like the use of that trite phrase misses out on something quite important. it was far far easier to hit it where they ain't when the phrase was used than it is now.

    btw, have you seen how he handled the bat? would you have an interest in seeing 9 ichiro suzukis in a lineup?

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    They would be exciting, certainly.

    But I don't think it's a trite phrase. It's part of the job of hitting. Tony Gwynn sprayed the ball everywhere. If he was playing today, do you think there would be any shifting on him?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    They would be exciting, certainly.

    But I don't think it's a trite phrase. It's part of the job of hitting. Tony Gwynn sprayed the ball everywhere. If he was playing today, do you think there would be any shifting on him?
    no but using perhaps the greatest pure batsman of the past 40 years to make your point is only reinforcing how hard it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    The idea that it should be banned or limited has to be a joke. It's a strategy, just like bunting.

    Hit it where they ain't
    I can't believe I'm agreeing with this guy.

  6. #36
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    If the batters learned to hit the ball to the opposite field there would be no need for the shift.

  7. #37
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    I can't believe I'm taking the hitters side on this as a former pitcher but you guys know the old saying about the hardest thing to do in sports? That's not even taking into account this idea you guys seem to have about just hitting it where you want...

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    no but using perhaps the greatest pure batsman of the past 40 years to make your point is only reinforcing how hard it is.

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    Because hitting is very very very very very very very very hard

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    I can't believe I'm taking the hitters side on this as a former pitcher but you guys know the old saying about the hardest thing to do in sports? That's not even taking into account this idea you guys seem to have about just hitting it where you want...

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    It's not so easy to just hit it where you want.

    But any good hitter goes with the pitch, which even big leaguers don't necessarily do very much. How often do you see guys rolling over on outside breaking pitches? It's not easy to do. But it often happens that a hitter is going up there looking for a pitch and location and tries to make a choice of what they want to do with it.

    Hitters have tendencies. That's why this works. If they didn't, and all hitters had the same profile, then you could have this discussion. But nobody is shifting on Jose Martinez, Denard Span, Jon Jay, or Lorenzo Cain because those hitters go with the pitch. You can't shift on Joey Votto because a third of his batted balls go the other way (same with center and right).

    A good hitter goes with the pitch. A hitter with the design and mind made up to crush the ball, or pull it, or whatever else is someone you need to shift on.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...rs=0&sort=14,d

    Take a look at the big pull hitters in the league. Jorge Soler has pulled 53.2% of his batted balls this year. Why wouldn't you shift on him? You have a 50/50 chance that he is hitting into the shift, no matter how you pitch to him. Joey Votto? It's wherever the pitch goes, Votto goes. This is what makes Votto an amazing hitter. Jose Ramirez is up there, but he is also pacing homers on a high volume. He has chosen to make that approach, so he is living with the pulls in an attempt to hit more home runs.

    Yes, hitting is very very hard. But good hitters go with the pitch, no matter where it is. If you just want to hit dingers, then go up there sitting on a pitch looking to crush it and pull the snot out of it. But if you don't barrel it up, be prepared for the weak out.


    Btw, I'd love to separate the guys with pull percentages over 45% and see their combined BABIP vs guys with oppo % of at least 30% and their BABIP. I bet it's startling in favor of those oppo guys, but that the high pull guys hit more homers.

  10. #40
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    Banning/Limiting the shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    Itís also not easy to hit the ball the other way if the other team has a game plan. If you facing Joe Gallo, youíll shift all your guys to the right and pitch him strictly inside, no chance he gets a hit to the other way unless he gets jammed.
    At the skill level of a MLB player, itís not really much more difficult.

    The ďhit and runĒ used to be executed quite often bc players practiced.


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  11. #41
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    That'd be stupid to take away a legit strategy. Like everyone else said, learn to hit the other way. You're a professional hitter. It's your job. Find ways to to beat the opposing strategy.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    Itís also not easy to hit the ball the other way if the other team has a game plan. If you facing Joe Gallo, youíll shift all your guys to the right and pitch him strictly inside, no chance he gets a hit to the other way unless he gets jammed.
    The hit and run probably disappeared b4 your time. It was not unusual to see at least 2 attempts per game.

    Players practiced hitting the other way to take advantage of either the SS or 2Bman moving to take the throw at 2B from the catcher.

    Itís a skill MLB players absolutely can practice and become good at.


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  13. #43
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    It has already been proven that the shift does not decrease the leagues BABIP. It has actually increased very slightly

  14. #44
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    viewers of the game and ardent fans might not agree with it but it sure sounds like it's coming and I support it.

    the most likely implementation of it will simply be to say the third basemen has to be on the left side of the infield and the second baseman has to position himself on the right side.

    there is still plenty of freedom there to use the data at your disposal to position your fielders where the ball is most likely to be hit.

    to be honest I kind of like the interesting strategic dilemma's this could create. if your data says a right handed batter is almost guaranteed to pull anything on the ground either in the vicinity of the third base bag or on the right side - closer to first than second - you might be willing to leave the entire middle of the infield empty. but what if there is a runner on first who is a threat to steal? do you risk making it difficult to cover in time on a steal or modify you defense?

    The other thing is positions. players do have them. you can't fill out the lineup card without declaring each position once. How long until we just list the 9 guys in the field? This evolution could ultimately lead us to a very weird place







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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    Maybe if guys learned to hit to the opposite field this wouldn't happen. Hell, if someone like Gallo laid down perfect bunt singles a few times in a row it would stop real quick.

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    Bunt singles donít put dollars in the bank or chicks in the sack.

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