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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    My team does ****ing matter. We have the best Bucking (not filter dodging) in the entire god damn league. Nice fialed troll attempt. Bucks woulda taken down the worriers in 5. Child plz.
    lol sure buddy.. Bucks havent made it out of the first round since 2000. You're still a tier below Boston and Philly in the East.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKLYNpigeon View Post
    lol sure buddy.. Bucks havent made it out of the first round since 2000. You're still a tier below Boston and Philly in the East.
    Raptors are TBD. the team who had Miami had the easiest first round matchip. Bucks took Boston to 7. Nuff said. I'm not allowed to talk about a certain team otherwise I'd drop some real knowledge.

    Bucks actually have a coach now. The Eas....NVM. The ENTIRE League has been put on watch.

    #nomorebuckingaround #trustthegiannis

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Raptors are TBD. the team who had Miami had the easiest first round matchip. Bucks took Boston to 7. Nuff said. I'm not allowed to talk about a certain team otherwise I'd drop some real knowledge.

    Bucks actually have a coach now. The Eas....NVM. The ENTIRE League has been put on watch.

    #nomorebuckingaround #trustthegiannis
    Boston was without their 2 allstars.

    Definitely a make or break year for the Bucks. It would be interesting to see what happens with Jabari.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKLYNpigeon View Post
    Boston was without their 2 allstars.

    Definitely a make or break year for the Bucks. It would be interesting to see what happens with Jabari.
    I personally only want Jabari if its a team friendly/short deal. Aka nothing >3 years. 3 years and high AAV, sure. But even at his peak, until he proves otherwise, I only see a Danny Dranger/Melo.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKLYNpigeon View Post
    I think not giving Curry one sets the tone for the team. Nobody can have one on the Warriors.

    I think theres alot of trust between players and front office. If they ever had to trade a piece it wouldnt be to a bad situation.

    When we had to dump Bogut we gave him options to Houston Dallas and Celtics.
    I agree that there's a lot of trust but Curry got the Max and he's the face of the franchise. Klay could be leaving a lot of money on the table to stay. He's also the most redundant of the group. He may want that NTC and I wouldn't blame him if he did.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueFan420 View Post
    I agree that there's a lot of trust but Curry got the Max and he's the face of the franchise. Klay could be leaving a lot of money on the table to stay. He's also the most redundant of the group. He may want that NTC and I wouldn't blame him if he did.
    I disagree about Klay being the most redundant. I don't think there's a single player in the league who could replicate what he does. Not only on offense, where his ability to snipe and pour in points at times without needing the ball is invaluable next to Durant and Curry, but as a strong multi-positional defender on top of it.

    Now you could say the same about Draymond in terms of no one being able to fill all the blanks he provides either, but I think they could easier get away with a more traditional big in his place (say, Jordan Bell?) in no small part thanks to the added rim protection they have with Durant around. Offensively his passing would be missed, but Durant, Curry and Klay can do more than enough to cover that up, IMO.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
    I disagree about Klay being the most redundant. I don't think there's a single player in the league who could replicate what he does. Not only on offense, where his ability to snipe and pour in points at times without needing the ball is invaluable next to Durant and Curry, but as a strong multi-positional defender on top of it.

    Now you could say the same about Draymond in terms of no one being able to fill all the blanks he provides either, but I think they could easier get away with a more traditional big in his place (say, Jordan Bell?) in no small part thanks to the added rim protection they have with Durant around. Offensively his passing would be missed, but Durant, Curry and Klay can do more than enough to cover that up, IMO.
    Not on this team though. Klay gets nuetralized due to Curry/Durant while Green is still maximized with his defense/passing/playmaking off Curry/others. Curry/Durant both shoot great and score high volume bringing very similar things to Klay. Curry also is a great playmaker but this is where Draymonds playmaking/versatility come in as something different next to him this team doesn't have. Defense should be obvious why as well.

    Take out Klay and you still have the engine to the offense. You still have defensive wings (KD/Iggy). You still have an elite scorer, from 3pt range as well (two of them actually). The things Klay brings just get nuetralized to an extent on this team and he goes from 2016 Klay in the first couple rounds to the Klay we have seen the last two post seasons. He becomes a 3/d role player with elite talent type thing.

    12 PER, .082 WS/48, -.1 BPM. This doesn't mean he sucks but it seems pretty clear he is used as a role player now moreso than an all star like his talents would normally dictate. It's because he is a bit redundant as was mentioned in a sense. Draymond crushes these numbers as his impact isn't as hindered by his surroundings (in fact you could argue it helps him a lot as opposed to holding him back). RS RPM numbers etc help show this too, the key being Draymond is still having a huge impact while Klay is kinda playing a role to allow the others to keep having theirs type of thing because his skills are a bit redundant so he isn't used in a maximizing way (which makes him more expendable imo).

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Not on this team though. Klay gets nuetralized due to Curry/Durant while Green is still maximized with his defense/passing/playmaking off Curry/others. Curry/Durant both shoot great and score high volume bringing very similar things to Klay. Curry also is a great playmaker but this is where Draymonds playmaking/versatility come in as something different next to him this team doesn't have. Defense should be obvious why as well.

    Take out Klay and you still have the engine to the offense. You still have defensive wings (KD/Iggy). You still have an elite scorer, from 3pt range as well (two of them actually). The things Klay brings just get nuetralized to an extent on this team and he goes from 2016 Klay in the first couple rounds to the Klay we have seen the last two post seasons. He becomes a 3/d role player with elite talent type thing.

    12 PER, .082 WS/48, -.1 BPM. This doesn't mean he sucks but it seems pretty clear he is used as a role player now moreso than an all star like his talents would normally dictate. It's because he is a bit redundant as was mentioned in a sense. Draymond crushes these numbers as his impact isn't as hindered by his surroundings (in fact you could argue it helps him a lot as opposed to holding him back). RS RPM numbers etc help show this too, the key being Draymond is still having a huge impact while Klay is kinda playing a role to allow the others to keep having theirs type of thing because his skills are a bit redundant so he isn't used in a maximizing way (which makes him more expendable imo).
    Ya I definitely agree that Draymond is elevated by the situation more than anyone. Not to crap on him, because he's like the dream role player of course, but I think there's an element of sacrifice from others that allow him to do as much as he does. Probably most so from Curry, in terms of playmaking, but it all works.

    On Klay, I don't know I don't think he's marginalized that much. Those rate stats are never going to be kind to him, as he doesn't handle the ball much at all and gives you very little on the boards and in assists, but I don't think his scoring should be understated.

    You can look at the WCF vs Houston, the real NBA Finals. Durant and Curry were dominating the ball and doing their thing, to the tune of 30.4 PPG and 25.0 PPG. Traditionally when we see a duo dominate like this it doesn't leave much for anyone else as there's only one ball and so many shots to go around. You can look at this current OKC group as a horrendous example of that, or the LeBron-Kyrie-Love Cavs and LeBron-Wade-Bosh Heat as others. Some cases where it can work is Houston, because Harden-Paul-Gordon are rotating and only two are on the court at the same time.

    But with Klay, he's able to play 38 MPG just like Durant and Curry and drop in his efficient 19.4 PPG needing just 106 FGA (15.1 per game) and 10 FTA (1.4 per game). The ball dominance drop off can be seen after that too, with no other player averaging even 9 PPG for the series (Iggy at 8.7 and Draymond at 8.3 being the next two).

    Without Klay, I think they would suffer a huge scoring vacuum and become waaay too much like the Durant-WB OKC teams post Harden-trade. Another player in that role would be much more like Love-Bosh in a good case or Melo in a bad one, someone who traditionally needs the ball to score and fails to fit into such a limited touch role.
    Last edited by FOXHOUND; 06-11-2018 at 03:31 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
    Ya I definitely agree that Draymond is elevated by the situation more than anyone. Not to crap on him, because he's like the dream role player of course, but I think there's an element of sacrifice from others that allow him to do as much as he does. Probably most so from Curry, in terms of playmaking, but it all works.

    On Klay, I don't know I don't think he's marginalized that much. Those rate stats are never going to be kind to him, as he doesn't handle the ball much at all and gives you very little on the boards and in assists, but I don't think his scoring should be understated.

    You can look at the WCF vs Houston, the real NBA Finals. Durant and Curry were dominating the ball and doing their thing, to the tune of 30.4 PPG and 25.0 PPG. Traditionally when we see a duo dominate like this it doesn't leave much for anyone else as there's only one ball and so many shots to go around. You can look at this current OKC group as a horrendous example of that, or the LeBron-Kyrie-Love Cavs and LeBron-Wade-Bosh Heat as others. Some cases where it can work is Houston, because Harden-Paul-Gordon are rotating and only two are on the court at the same time.

    But with Klay, he's able to play 38 MPG just like Durant and Curry and drop in his efficient 19.4 PPG needing just 106 FGA (15.1 per game) and 10 FTA (1.4 per game). The ball dominance drop off can be seen after that too, with no other player averaging even 9 PPG for the series (Iggy at 8.7 and Draymond at 8.3 being the next two).

    Without Klay, I think they would suffer a huge scoring vacuum and become waaay too much like the Durant-WB OKC teams post Harden-trade.
    I have covered the numbers before but look at 2016 Klay when Curry was out in the playoffs after game 1 rockets and came back up 2-1 against portland (they were great even for a legit #1). Klay killed it as the first option in the playoffs with a 5-2 record essentially without Curry and Green as the 2nd best player. Small sample but you get to there not being enough touches for him in the league etc. so you seem to get the point. If his skills weren't redundant and they didn't have 2 MVP players who also score in volume (and high efficiency 3) he would be going off more with these types of numbers. That's the point, that is part of the proof that he is redundant is that he went from elite numbers in a 1 role to role player numbers in this role. He isn't being maximized but his spacing (what 3/d role players provide) is still more elite than a role player sure.

    I mean doesn't it make sense that if Green is maximized here then he is bringing things that aren't redundant? Klay isn't maximized because he is. I think the raw stats would be better if he were using his best skills to score more etc. instead of being used more as the spacer for the other two to do damage (even you get at there not being enough ball to go around, because they are redundant to an extent). A 3/d player would hurt their scoring a bit but right now Curry's numbers have also suffered from sharing more etc. so they have the star power to possibly still pick that up (and then we actually could see them tested some individually tbh, right now imo it is clear they aren't being pushed to their limits)

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I have covered the numbers before but look at 2016 Klay when Curry was out in the playoffs after game 1 rockets and came back up 2-1 against portland (they were great even for a legit #1). Klay killed it as the first option in the playoffs with a 5-2 record essentially without Curry and Green as the 2nd best player. Small sample but you get to there not being enough touches for him in the league etc. so you seem to get the point. If his skills weren't redundant and they didn't have 2 MVP players who also score in volume (and high efficiency 3) he would be going off more with these types of numbers. That's the point, that is part of the proof that he is redundant is that he went from elite numbers in a 1 role to role player numbers in this role. He isn't being maximized but his spacing (what 3/d role players provide) is still more elite than a role player sure.

    I mean doesn't it make sense that if Green is maximized here then he is bringing things that aren't redundant? Klay isn't maximized because he is. I think the raw stats would be better if he were using his best skills to score more etc. instead of being used more as the spacer for the other two to do damage (even you get at there not being enough ball to go around, because they are redundant to an extent). A 3/d player would hurt their scoring a bit but right now Curry's numbers have also suffered from sharing more etc. so they have the star power to possibly still pick that up (and then we actually could see them tested some individually tbh, right now imo it is clear they aren't being pushed to their limits)
    To be fair, Houston and Portland were the two worst D's in the entire playoffs and bottom 10 in the league (and their perimeter D was the main culprit for that). Klay has issues generating his own shot and is definitely best fit as a #2/3 in an offense that can get him looks (and he does get a 1st-option level of shots somehow). I actually can't think of a better role for either of them to showcase their abilities. It's definitely a symbiotic relationship. KD is really the only one who screws up the offense at times when he gets ISO happy, but as we saw in G3 it can also prove highly valuable.
    Last edited by tredigs; 06-11-2018 at 04:24 PM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I have covered the numbers before but look at 2016 Klay when Curry was out in the playoffs after game 1 rockets and came back up 2-1 against portland (they were great even for a legit #1). Klay killed it as the first option in the playoffs with a 5-2 record essentially without Curry and Green as the 2nd best player. Small sample but you get to there not being enough touches for him in the league etc. so you seem to get the point. If his skills weren't redundant and they didn't have 2 MVP players who also score in volume (and high efficiency 3) he would be going off more with these types of numbers. That's the point, that is part of the proof that he is redundant is that he went from elite numbers in a 1 role to role player numbers in this role. He isn't being maximized but his spacing (what 3/d role players provide) is still more elite than a role player sure.

    I mean doesn't it make sense that if Green is maximized here then he is bringing things that aren't redundant? Klay isn't maximized because he is. I think the raw stats would be better if he were using his best skills to score more etc. instead of being used more as the spacer for the other two to do damage (even you get at there not being enough ball to go around, because they are redundant to an extent). A 3/d player would hurt their scoring a bit but right now Curry's numbers have also suffered from sharing more etc. so they have the star power to possibly still pick that up (and then we actually could see them tested some individually tbh, right now imo it is clear they aren't being pushed to their limits)
    Right, I get what you're saying and you're definitely right in the sense that Klay would be scoring more if he were a 2nd option, but at the same time there is no better microwave catch and shoot player in the NBA. Even in his limited role, Klay will still have his moments where he quickly drops 9 points and helps explode the game wide open. Your average 3 and D player is not doing that, or at least not in the same universe of frequency as Klay can do even next to three ball handlers in Durant, Curry and Draymond.

    On the flip side, my point was that Draymond is maximized at the expense of the others to an extent. They let him do as much as he does to give him value offensively, IMO, while the three are elite off the ball players regardless. It would change things offensively, but that goes to my point that there would be many more possessions/ball time to go around. In that space you would have Durant and Curry pick up the playmaking slack and Klay would get to do more again. And honestly I think a lot of their reads out of the post aren't that difficult because they're hitting Curry, Klay and Durant. Their offense doesn't get much worse when Draymond is off the court, dropping just 1 point per 100 possessions.

    Or think of it this way - Draymond has some great skills for right now. I think his assists are definitely heavily inflated due to their system and passing to 3 of the best off ball players in the NBA/of all time, but obviously he's a very good passer for a big regardless. Klay though is simply one of the greatest shooters ever. Like top 2-5 greatest shooters ever. You just can't replace that. There's no one who can give you the insane efficiency on volume over years and consistently hit the shots with such little time and space like he does while virtually never needing the ball otherwise.

    This year you can look at someone like Joe Ingles as someone who came fairly close, hitting the same 44% clip on a very high 5.7 3PA a game. It's not the 7.1 3PA that Klay took, and his 11.5 PPG on a team that really had no 2nd option - especially once Hood was trade - vs Klay's 20 PPG despite being with Durant and Curry leaves a lot to be desired. Ingles is a pretty solid defender too, but a 3/4 as opposed to Klay being able to guard 1-3 and sometimes 4, which does a lot to help Curry. Ingles is a really good passer though, so he has that clear advantage.

    I think it's just in their bones. So much of what they do is possible because of how much scoring they get from just those three players. They currently don't have to worry that Draymond is going to give you only 8-9 and same for Iggy despite playing all those minutes because those three are giving you 72+ a night.

    To replace Klay's scoring in that role you have to look at guys like Love and Bosh who did next to those duos, and you know you're talking about guys who were All-NBA players as franchise players. For Draymond? I mean any really strong defensive big is going to mostly cover him, IMO. That's not easy to find either, but it's something Jordan Bell could realistically develop into just like Draymond did.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    To be fair, Houston and Portland were the two worst D's in the entire playoffs and bottom 10 in the league (and their perimeter D was the main culprit for that). Klay has issues generating his own shot and is definitely best fit as a #2/3 in an offense that can get him looks (and he gets a 1st-option level of shots somehow). I actually can't think of a better role for either of them to showcase their abilities.
    I mean sure it wasn't great defense but we are talking legitimate #1 numbers to what I posted haha. You don't need to think he can be that number one to see that he is still a bit redundant now on GS but there is at least an example out there. I agree in that 2/3 role he was great playing off Curry/Green. Now KD is there and he has become more redundant, especially in comparison to Green.

    His skillset would allow him in the right situation to be a #1 option. This would need to be loaded and have a Green type big probably with a real pg but the point is even in the playoffs we have seen a snapshot of what could be. On a championship team I agree that 2nd guy off of a creator is best suited for him far moreso than being a first option. He does have limitations for sure but there is no denying that he isn't being maximized either due to KD and pushing him further down on priority etc. on this team now.

  13. #28
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    I agree Klay isn't being maximized by the system. It's more Klay trying to maximize his impact within the system.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
    Right, I get what you're saying and you're definitely right in the sense that Klay would be scoring more if he were a 2nd option, but at the same time there is no better microwave catch and shoot player in the NBA. Even in his limited role, Klay will still have his moments where he quickly drops 9 points and helps explode the game wide open. Your average 3 and D player is not doing that, or at least not in the same universe of frequency as Klay can do even next to three ball handlers in Durant, Curry and Draymond.

    On the flip side, my point was that Draymond is maximized at the expense of the others to an extent. They let him do as much as he does to give him value offensively, IMO, while the three are elite off the ball players regardless. It would change things offensively, but that goes to my point that there would be many more possessions/ball time to go around. In that space you would have Durant and Curry pick up the playmaking slack and Klay would get to do more again. And honestly I think a lot of their reads out of the post aren't that difficult because they're hitting Curry, Klay and Durant. Their offense doesn't get much worse when Draymond is off the court, dropping just 1 point per 100 possessions.

    Or think of it this way - Draymond has some great skills for right now. I think his assists are definitely heavily inflated due to their system and passing to 3 of the best off ball players in the NBA/of all time, but obviously he's a very good passer for a big regardless. Klay though is simply one of the greatest shooters ever. Like top 2-5 greatest shooters ever. You just can't replace that. There's no one who can give you the insane efficiency on volume over years and consistently hit the shots with such little time and space like he does while virtually never needing the ball otherwise.

    This year you can look at someone like Joe Ingles as someone who came fairly close, hitting the same 44% clip on a very high 5.7 3PA a game. It's not the 7.1 3PA that Klay took, and his 11.5 PPG on a team that really had no 2nd option - especially once Hood was trade - vs Klay's 20 PPG despite being with Durant and Curry leaves a lot to be desired. Ingles is a pretty solid defender too, but a 3/4 as opposed to Klay being able to guard 1-3 and sometimes 4, which does a lot to help Curry. Ingles is a really good passer though, so he has that clear advantage.

    I think it's just in their bones. So much of what they do is possible because of how much scoring they get from just those three players. They currently don't have to worry that Draymond is going to give you only 8-9 and same for Iggy despite playing all those minutes because those three are giving you 72+ a night.

    To replace Klay's scoring in that role you have to look at guys like Love and Bosh who did next to those duos, and you know you're talking about guys who were All-NBA players as franchise players. For Draymond? I mean any really strong defensive big is going to mostly cover him, IMO. That's not easy to find either, but it's something Jordan Bell could realistically develop into just like Draymond did.
    Yes, like I said he is still a better version of 3/d due to what you mention but he still is used more in that way is the point. That is because his talents aren't as needed/are redundant. He's not your average one but him in just more of that role than the 2nd star is due to being redundant now.

    Yup but this is what makes Green a bit special in GS too is how he fits and is maximized by these other players/system. Offense isn't the key for him either though haha they don't have anything like a DPOY big man without him bringing near the same versatility. That's what makes him especially needed and not nearly as redundant.

    We fully agree on some of this offensive talent and who is helping who but the reasons why is because one is more redundant than the other. Klay is the one that is more hindered individually in this offense due to being redundant AND he doesn't bring the same DPOY/big man versatility that GS doesn't have outside Green. In 2016 Curry/Green/Durant all were doing more on the offensive end production wise than last year. There is room for them to help pick up some of the slack so while a role player might be closer to 10 ppg if you just look at the differences from now to when they weren't all loaded up together we see they likely have the skill to be ok. Sure there would be a bit of a drop off still but it isn't quite like losing the anchor on the other side of the ball that gives you matchup advantages etc. and we see all that in the impact numbers currently.

    The thing is those other teams you mentioned did have some redundant issues too. It was pointed out by tons when Miami joined up. This team has an extra star haha. Draymond/Klay is basically the perfect compliments to a #1 you could ask for (scoring/spacing/playmaking/versatility/defense) but now you can just KD in where Thompson is and it's even better! They bring enough similar things etc. that it is just a better version.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-11-2018 at 04:40 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Gotta even it up somehow. Or should teams in states that have no state tax be the only ones with inherit advantages?
    If you some how think the two are the same...... One of your dumber posts.

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