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View Poll Results: Will LBJ win finals MVP but lose the series?

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  • Yes

    6 31.58%
  • No

    13 68.42%
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  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    God I wish I could write a book, it would be the greatest book ever written on the subject of basketball and it would encompass everything I've ever waisted time learning about this lame sport. Its honestly become a husk of what it once was. Unfortunately I dont have the time nor stamina to care anymore, I just know I can argue my beliefs without relying on the old cop out that is the appeal to authority fallacy. Maybe you just dont think highly of yourself but your potential isn't capped by accepted norms, you can disagree with alleged experts in many fields. With regards to basketball, Ill take on anyone.

    LeBron was an overrated defender too, so was MJ. Hell I saw Wade get it because of his high block/steals tallies despite the teams designated DEFENSIVE STOPPER being Eddie Jones. Wade always took the easy opponent. Funny enough, he wound up being underrated in his latter days when LeBron was getting all the glory. Like that series vs Chicago who were the 1 seed, everyone cites what Bron did to Rose in the 4th quarter but we all forget the admirable job and load Wade carried defending that guy for the other 75% of the game.

    It works both ways, trust me I held this standard to a fault. You can find posts of mine from video game forums in the mid 2k days where Im arguing for guys like Trenton Hassel, Shane Battier and Quinton Ross to get defensive upgrades cuz they actually do more than the likes of Tmac and Kobe
    Even Iverson was getting DPOY votes..

  2. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by L8kers4life View Post
    Read my posts, I'm defending Kobe against you idiots. Your DPOY thoughts are irrelevant, Chronz was trying to say Dikembe bring DPOY means Shaq would have trouble against him, Shaq abused Dikemebe, and that was the Lakers game plan, my point to all of you LeBroniphiles, is Kobe earned his 5 rings, that you guys discredit. The finals and conference finals was in response to someone.

    I'm sick of Lebron fans, if he loses, his teams dont have enough talent, or LeBron had to do it on his own. If they win, LeBron had no help he is the GOAT. If he loses as a favorite, you guys say they shouldn't have been favorites.

    For the ish you talk about Kobe, who cares if the Lakers tried to trade Kobe for LeBron and the Cavs said no, why would anyone trade a 22 year old superstar for a 32 year old superstar? And Kobe demanding trades is how he forced the Lakers to make trades. When Ariza left for Houston, Metta came because of Kobe, that wasnt luck. Also Pau being 0-9 in the playoffs before LA is no coincidence, Kobeand Phil made Pau a better player, forcing him to be more aggressive.

    For all the stuff you guys talk about the Shaq and Kobe Lakers and how invaluable Kobe was, Shaq believes they are the greatest 1-2 punch ever, and Phil said Kobe was the engine of that machine. So sorry if I find your opinion completely bias. As I have said, I have Jordan, Lebron ranked 1-2 and Kobe in the 7-10 range, not sure why you guys are so butt hurt, but you guys constantly belittle Kobe, it's become annoying. No respect
    Agreed, I got the message you were trying to convey, my response is, we have actual objective data that confirms what your alleged experts agreed upon.

    I also forgot to bring this up earlier but, you were wrong about Deke standing no chance. Thats not how he was viewed around the league, in actuality, the Nets traded for Dikembe because he put up the BEST fight against FinalsShaq (Shame they lost to Duncan instead but I swear, if you watch that series again you wonder why they didn't play Deke more). Just cuz Shaq destroys you doesn't make it the same, like if you look at what Shaq did in 1v1 situations vs the league and then how he fared vs Deke, you would find abit more efficiency in how Dikembe defended. This statistical marker has held true for Deke in too many counterpart comparisons that its beyond asinine to ignore.

    THATS the difference between Deke and Kobe, its not that Deke was the DPOY so much as he was FEASIBLY THE DPOY. Kobe held no such distinction because even Phil Jackson admitted he didn't deserve his defensive accolades beyond 02.

    At the very least we should agree, if you're lighting up Kobe, its worthy of distinction defensively. Right? Shaq destroying the DPOY shouldn't be dismissed by age, Deke was STILL in fact a DPOY caliber player. Its why they won a game IMO.

  3. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerSL View Post
    If you put Lebron on the Lakers from Kobe's rookie season (96-97) through his last championship season (09-10), the Lakers would have not only won more championships in those 14 years, they would have appeared in more Finals as well. I can't even fathom how many championships he would have won with prime Shaq and prime Gasol, probably at least seven.
    Kobes perimeter game was way better than Lebrons, plus he's a scorer and has been since the beginning. Also better off the ball threat, as Shaq works the block

    I think kobe + Shaq > lebron + shaq
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  4. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Kobes perimeter game was way better than Lebrons, plus he's a scorer and has been since the beginning. Also better off the ball threat, as Shaq works the block

    I think kobe + Shaq > lebron + shaq
    I disagree and I actually want to make a thread on it. I'll await your response there

  5. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Blue987 View Post
    So an in his prime Wade, Chris Bosh, Lebron that went 2-2 in the finals against the Mavs, OKC, and Spurs twice is somehow significantly worse than what Kobe had to play with? lol. Lebron has only been able to take his teams to the finals for so long because the Eastern Conference is significantly worse than the Western Conference where Kobe played his entire career. If you can't acknowledge that Lebron has that advantage over Kobe, idk what else to tell you. The Eastern Conference has been mediocre for years. There have been no more than 4 teams that won 50+ games each year in the past decade and even fewer title contenders every year in the Eastern Conference. Here is a reference for you.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...2008&lg_id=NBA

    The competition Kobe played against relative to what Lebron played against is not even close. Kobe played in significantly tougher competition every year. I will say I think Lebron is the better player, don't get me wrong. He is a better finisher around the hoop because of his size and ability to slash, a better passer, and re-bounder as well. Kobe was a better defender and jump shooter that even the best defenders couldn't defend against. it just drives me crazy though when I hear/read about this narrative that Lebron is so significantly better than Kobe because he has taken his teams to 8 straight finals with his own super teams (with the exception of this year). Just please look at the competition each player has played against the past decade. Thank you.
    Sure, Lebron's East has been weaker than Kobe's West, but Lebron's faced much greater challenges in the Finals. On top of that Lebron has had worse teams. Yeah, he had prime Wade for three years and a prime Bosh for four and it was his fault he lost in 2011 for sure. Nothing will undo the 2011 Finals for him.

    The teams he's gone to the Finals with in Cleveland however, outside of 2016 and 2017, have been trash. Lebron has been the betting favorite 2 times in 9 NBA Finals appearances, Kobe was the betting favorite in all 7 of his (even in 08 for some reason). Lebron is, pretty significantly, better than Kobe.

  6. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    Lol. I read like two paragraphs and found out how biased you were.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUTC6zeDefs

    Here's Steve Kerr saying Jordan kept getting his own and didn't get his teammates involved. That's Steve Kerr. You calling him a liar?

    It's also funny you say, "LeBron didn't have Pippen so he got his stats" but a few sentences before that, you talk about LeBron having prime Wade. Which one is it?

    Who is arguing that LeBron didn't massively disappointed in 2011? No one. You're bringing up the only valid criticism of his career that is undisputed in opinion. No one denies it but you argue it. What? 2014 NBA Finals is LeBron's fault? Not the fact Ginobili, Danny Green, Tony Parker, and Kawhi Leonard were a better 2nd option than anyone on the Heat?

    But don't read it from Chronz or myself. Read it from MJ's own words in 2001 when he was vividly against zone defense.

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...mendations-nba

    "Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did."

    "It is a daring experiment that proponents say will return classic basketball--cutting, passing and better shooting. Opponents say scores will plummet further and the individual stars of the game, such as Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant, will be neutralized.

    And that was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play."


    Here is Pat Riley predicting the change in the NBA because of the new rules:

    "I think the philosophy now is about versatility, quickness, mobility, stretching the game," Riley said. "The philosophy has transcended getting a big man."

    Here's a great video demonstrating how illegal defense actually helped Jordan - something Jordan himself stated.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGT_pwaFk94


    The biggest problem in your argument is that you think just because Jordan scored over three players, it was no problemo for him. That's not the difficult part. The difficult part is trying to get to there. By the time Jordan got to the paint, it was too late for the other defenders to triple him near the basket. He's already got a clean shot at the basket.

    I'm not going to sit here and say which decade was easier/tougher. The game changed. No one wanted to watch Barkley back a defender down for 16 seconds. What I will say is that you can like both players without being biased - something you can't oblige to.
    Where in anything I was responding to was the poster I responded
    To saying Jordan just got his? That wasn’t what he said. He was pretending that Jordan wouldn’t score on today’s athletes... he never said “Jordan didn’t share the ball”... we can have that discussion but that’s not what wS being discussed

    Jordan averaged 32.5 8.0 8.0 in pippens first yeAr as a starter ... are you suggesting that if Pippen doesn’t join the bulls and Jackson doesn’t become coach, Jordan just magically sees his stats drop at that point?
    Once again nimrod .. if you were there you’d know that masking prevailed upon Jordan to share the load with Pippen.

    Now the reply would be “yes, if Lebron had wade his whole career ...his stats might be marginally lower, but he’d have more rings.”

    But it’s hard to
    Watch the 2011 finals and say that isn’t it? Don’t give me 22 paragraphs... isn’t it?

    You’re just like Kobe fans... loud and proud in 2010... 8 years later nobody thinks Kobe is better than Jordan...

  7. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerSL View Post
    Sure, Lebron's East has been weaker than Kobe's West, but Lebron's faced much greater challenges in the Finals. On top of that Lebron has had worse teams. Yeah, he had prime Wade for three years and a prime Bosh for four and it was his fault he lost in 2011 for sure. Nothing will undo the 2011 Finals for him.

    The teams he's gone to the Finals with in Cleveland however, outside of 2016 and 2017, have been trash. Lebron has been the betting favorite 2 times in 9 NBA Finals appearances, Kobe was the betting favorite in all 7 of his (even in 08 for some reason). Lebron is, pretty significantly, better than Kobe.
    People fail to realize those last 2 teams in Miami were just atrocious.

    The numbers are misleading

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  8. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoilermakerD View Post
    Where in anything I was responding to was the poster I responded
    To saying Jordan just got his? That wasn’t what he said. He was pretending that Jordan wouldn’t score on today’s athletes... he never said “Jordan didn’t share the ball”... we can have that discussion but that’s not what wS being discussed

    Jordan averaged 32.5 8.0 8.0 in pippens first yeAr as a starter ... are you suggesting that if Pippen doesn’t join the bulls and Jackson doesn’t become coach, Jordan just magically sees his stats drop at that point?
    Once again nimrod .. if you were there you’d know that masking prevailed upon Jordan to share the load with Pippen.

    Now the reply would be “yes, if Lebron had wade his whole career ...his stats might be marginally lower, but he’d have more rings.”

    But it’s hard to
    Watch the 2011 finals and say that isn’t it? Don’t give me 22 paragraphs... isn’t it?

    You’re just like Kobe fans... loud and proud in 2010... 8 years later nobody thinks Kobe is better than Jordan...
    Nobody ever thought Kobe was better than Jordan.. short term memory loss?

  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dade County View Post
    Why do you feel that Lbj is staying put?

    Boston does not have 3 Super Stars on their roster. They have star/all star players, yes.



    So the League can have two juggernauts meet in the Finals. It will be a year long hype media build up.

    I'm thinking it would be cool if it was for either, Bucks, 76ers or HEAT.

    Bucks:
    Giannis along with KD & Lbj Yeah something special with that length and athleticism. I don't believe KD & Lbj would sign their long term, but a 2yr contract opting out after the first year, sounds about right. This team meeting up against a Western Con team would be great.

    Bucks would have to workout S&T options with Cavs & GS, but no Organization just wants players walking out the door with out getting some assets back; so they can at least flip at a later date.

    76ers:
    I don't believe I really have to say anything. 6ers have assets to send out to accommodate both teams in a S&T. Once again, not saying that Lbj & KD would sign on long term with any of these Organizations.

    HEAT:
    You give Pat true Super Star talent and we all know what happens. Players will be lining up to join this team on cheap 1yr contracts. Cavs wanted Miami to trade them 4 players when Irving was being shopped around.

    So in a S&T I am sure something can be worked out; Cav's don't want to fall to the bottom of the East once again when Lbj leaves. And GS has a smart front office, they would find something they can flip from a S&T with Miami.

    I didn't add a team like Boston, because like I have stated, I don't believe these 2 guys will sign on long term with any team. So why would Boston trade any of their good assets for a rental player. They would just have to wait it out, of course Boston fans won't be to happy about this.
    I just do not see him leaving Cleveland again. If he forms another super-team he will get vilified more than Durant did when he went to Golden State and almost as much as he when he joined Miami.

    numba1CHANGsta said the Celtics with 2 or 3 superstars could beat the Warriors.


    James, KD and Antetokounmpo would annihilate everybody.

    I think any team (including Boston) would trade anything for LBJ and Durant in a heartbeat as this would make them favorites and there is nothing guaranteed about the future.
    "Train hard, play (matches) harder"

  10. #700
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    Everyone rightly points out the incredibly strong teams LeBron has faced in the finals, but they forget the other side of the coin. With so much talent concentrated on so few teams, the season long competition and the first 3 rounds of the playoffs are often a joke.

    If LeBron is in the GOAT talk, he should be dominant all season, and he should be somewhat rested for that one great team he faces from the west each season.

  11. #701
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    WiltVP... great start line.. lose by 20... morons think you’re MJ

  12. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hustla23 View Post
    How is Philadelphia not the clear answer here?
    Chris Paul and James Harden
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  13. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    People fail to realize those last 2 teams in Miami were just atrocious.

    The numbers are misleading

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    How so, those teams had 3 guys make the allstar team that started and 4 guys who were all #1 options on the team including Ray Allen who bailed out the Heat when the Heat were down in the series and down in the game.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

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  14. #704
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    You would only get finals mvp on a losing team if the series went 7 which is why West got it. Lebron could have got it in 2015 if the series went 7 and he probably would have gotten it in 2016 had the Cavs lost because it went 7. But in 2014 losing to the Spurs in 5, he had no shot.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  15. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Heres what I want all of you who hold 11 against Bron to make sense for me, according to this logic, where do we rank Kareem vs guys who never lost as badly as he did vs Nate Thurmonds Warriors in the FIRST ROUND. Did his longevity not completely envelop that failure? Hell, some have argued (myself included) that an old Wilt either outplayed or faced to a standstill against peak KAJ. I can forgive Bron for 11 because MJ literally QUIT on the game during his prime and PLENTY within the league have agreed the break did him good. You guys missed out on MJ losing to Hakeem cuz the guy QUIT.
    Jordan retiring for a year has nothing to do with Jordan on the court.

    We aren’t comparing Kareem to Walt Bellamy right now. We are comparing Lebron, who played awful and lost the 11 finals.. shot piss poor in a series he lost in 07 ... did the the spurs have two more hall of famers.. yes. Can Lebron who shot 35.7% say he played great and make a case he would have won with better teammates? No .. and a guy who lost in 14 to a team he should have beaten ...

    To a guy who never lost a series in which HE played poorly...

    Also I can say Jordan’s stats would have remained as goood as they were pre 1990 if he didn’t have to share with Pippen. You can reply with a player like Pippen for ten plus year Lebron wins more rings.. till we see that he was 2-2 with wade.., who, unlike Pippen, led a team to a ring..

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