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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by kobe4thewinbang View Post
    Any thoughts on Jokic yet, guys?

    Saw it on yahoo this time around, seems to be getting more buzz that his agent has told the Nuggets FO to decline his option and sign him this summer to a long term deal.

    In the prediction thread, someone thought Jokic would have a breakout year and that they were almost right, but that he needs more time.

    His agent is clearly lobbying to get him a max deal, not sure if Denver wants to. See my post about it: Here is the new yahoo article: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nikola-...140008325.html
    Didn't something similar happen to Boozer about a decade and a half ago, where he got the Cavs to decline the option, just for him to go sign with another team (I think the contract was made where Cleveland would be in trouble matching)?

    Denver has to be careful here, and make sure that if they'll allow him to hit RFA that they're all in on Jokic and are willing to match anything, even if that means going over the luxury tax/cap.

    I mean a 4 year contract might not be too brutal seeing as he SHOULD be getting better going into his prime years (as the contract would run till he's 27-28. If they're all-in, it would probably be best to decline the option and negotiate now. If they accept the team option, they will get him back cheap, but they lose the ability to match, and they could severely hurt Jokic's relationship with the FO, which is what you don't want with your star player going into free agency.

    I mean, if Denver needs more money to acquire him, Toronto gladly will be willing to swap Milsap and Ibaka and stuff


    On Russel Westbrook's Chances at Defensive Player of the Year:

    Quote Originally Posted by Money_23 View Post
    I think he has a good case. He's the only guy who can hold Durant to under 30 points a game.


    Quote Originally Posted by P&GRealist View Post
    Sometimes, perception isn't reality.

    But Tittays are forever.

  2. #107
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    Wolves shopping Jones. I wouldn't mind my Bucks offering up Wilson for Jones swap. Thibs prefers old vet Rose over Jones. At least according to reports.

  3. #108
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    no one knows who Wilson is on the Bucks
    2018 SUPER BOWL CHAMPIONS
    WE ALL WE NEED. WE ALL WE GOT.

  4. #109
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    Thibs is gonna destroy the sound job Flip initially did to build this roster...

  5. #110
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    How Thibs still has a job is beyond me.

  6. #111
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    Celtics Mock Offseason 1.0

    I’m going to start out and assume we make the NBA finals and lose a close series to GS in 6 games.

    We'll have pick #27 in the draft.

    Draft Day

    Pick #27: Jontay Porter. A bit of a project player here but with legitimate upside. He stands at 6’11 240lbs. Legitimate center body frame. He can shoot the 3. He’s a great passer. Will need to shape and mold his body a bit, but sitting behind Horford and Theis he’ll have the ability to do that and getting some spot duty during the season.

    Trade: Guerschon Yabusele to BRK for #40 and #45

    ***I like Yabusele and think he can eventually be a nice role player in this league. But in Boston he’s buried behind a ton of wings and his $2.7M salary is starting to hamstring our cap. He’s traded for 2 second round picks to help fill out the roster with some cheaper contracts.***

    Pick #40: Grayson Allen. 6’5 205lb. Duke product with a high pedigree. He has that compete level Danny and Brad love. High IQ guy who can shoot the 3. Excellent FT shooter. High motor. Decent playmaker. Doesn’t have ideal agility or speed. Overall average athlete. He’ll struggle defensively in the NBA but not for a lack of effort. If he pans out he could be the next JJ Redick. Or a non factor/NBA washout.

    Pick #45: De’Anthony Melton. 6’2. 195lb. Combo guard. 6’8 wingspan (insane). He’s a terrific defender but his offensive game needs to be polished. He reminds me a lot of Terry Rozier when he first came into the league. He has all the tools to be a nice player in this league but needs development.

    Trade: Abdel Nader for heavily protected future 2nd round pick. (Salary dump)

    QO’s –
    Qualifying offers will be extended to Marcus Smart, Aron Baynes, Shane Larkin

    Roster

    PG
    Kyrie Irving
    Marcus Smart
    Terry Rozier
    Shane Larkin

    Wings
    Gordon Hayward
    Jaylen Brown
    Jayson Tatum
    Marcus Morris
    Semi Ojeleye
    De’Anthony Melton
    Grayson Allen

    Centers
    Al Horford
    Aron Baynes
    Daniel Theis
    Jontay Porter

    To this point our cap is sitting at about $127M.
    ***This number is for the complete above roster, accounting for holds and draft pick salaries.***

    The cap is projected to be $101M with a luxury tax threshold of $123M.
    ***So as we currently sit here, we would need to trim about $4M in salary to get under the threshold. Something I really think we should try and do considering future ramifications of paying luxury taxes.***

    Re-Signings

    Marcus Smart - $44.4M/3 (back loaded so first years cap # is $12M)
    Smart showed during the playoff run his value to this team. He’s a source of energy for this team and makes all the big plays. He’s continued his slow shooting improvement but that’s not why he’s here. He also had a great year becoming more of playmaker. He make not score much, but his defense and ability to make those around him better are immensely valuable to this club.

    Aron Baynes - $6.2M/1
    Baynes had a great first year in Boston. He’s a great role player. He compliments Al well and allows him to play his natural PF position. He’s not an elite rim protector but he’s serviceable enough. His surprising development of a 3 point shot helps space the floor as well.

    Shane Larkin - $1.5M/1
    Larkin was a great 4th PG option for this team last season. He’s small and quick. Has a decent 3 point shot and plays fairly solid defense though can be taken advantage of by bigger/faster players. Stevens trusts him when he’s forced into action.

    Looking at the roster – we have to trim $4M, there a few players I view as easy to unload without feeling an impact on the court. But when looking through and considering contract number, length and positioning on the team I find 1 player that I would consider expendable.

    Marcus Morris is the odd man out. He played great throughout the playoffs and was a key contributor to this team. He was a flash scorer who provided a nice spark of the bench. His versatility and defense were huge during the playoff run. However, he’ll be making $5M that if shed, gets us under the luxury tax, and will be a Free Agent the following season. He could likely be re-signed for a fair deal, but would he really want to stay on as the 5th wing on this team? With Hayward returning, he’s going to wipe out all of Morris’s minutes and reduce him to a small bench role he likely would not be happy with.

    Trade: Marcus Morris and 2 future second round picks to IND for C Ike Anigbogu.

    IND will have cap space and could use a player like Morris. They’re unlikely to be a major player in Free Agency but will look to build around a surprising 2017-18 campaign. Morris versatility, ability to score off the bench and defense will fit seamlessly into IND scheme. In return we get a developmental C in Ike Anigbogu who has some decent upside but is very raw. He will get a chance to develop and learn from some solid vets in Horford and Baynes. Celtics shed nearly $4M after this transaction to get under the luxury tax threshold.

    Final Roster - $122M

    PG Irving/Rozier/Smart/Larkin

    Wing Hayward/Brown/Tatum/Ojeleye/Allen/Melton

    Big Horford/Baynes/Theis /Porter/Anigbogu

    Rotation (MPG)

    PG Irving (32)/Rozier (16)
    SG Hayward (32)/Rozier(9)/Smart(7)
    SF Brown (32)/Smart(16)
    PF Tatum (32)/Horford(10)/Ojeleye(6)
    C Horford (20)/Baynes(15)/Theis(13)

    Don’t worry so much about the positions listed.

    The Point
    We’ll feature a (hopefully) fully recovered Kyrie Irving who will give the starting lineup stability and a huge scoring threat and playmaker. Rozier will be his main backup/insurance should he need to have his minutes carefully monitored. It would be smart play to regulate/restrict his minutes in the regular season. Especially with the depth this roster features. Rozier and Smart can handle the duties at any point in time and Larkin is a reliable 4th option.

    The wing position
    Absolutely stacked. Smart will have to play a lot of 2-3 to get on the court but that doesn’t bother me because of his defensive versatility. Hayward reinserts into the starting lineup – effectively absorbing the minutes Morris played. He’s at best equal defensively to Morris but if he falls short it’s only slightly. However he’s a much more potent and consistent scoring threat to Morris. This is a big upgrade. Expect continued progression from Tatum and Brown who will play 30+ minutes a night. Ojeleye played well his rookie season and has carved out a small role for himself. Hopefully he can improve his shot and become more consistent but defensively he can hold his own. Horford will also see time at the “4”. This group can do it all. Big, long, athletic, versatile, can score from anywhere, can D on just about anyone.

    The Bigs
    Horford will start. Baynes can spell him and Theis will also have a role off the bench. Solid rotational group here. They complement each other well. We lack a true “rim protector” but Baynes and Horford can get the job done.

    The end of the Bench
    Features Larson, a solid vet presence and trusted emergency option. Grayson Allen who has spark plug type potential off the bench. He could be a deadly 3 point shooter if he can play enough defense to get on the court. De-Anthony Melton is more of a defensive threat, combo guard in the mold of a young Terry Rozier. His offense will need a lot of work but if he can play solid defense (his calling card) he could create a role for himself in the future. Jontay Porter is a semi polished developmental big. He has some great aspects of his game that could eventually lead him to being an Al Horford type player. Learning under Al for a few seasons will be greatly beneficial to him and his development. Ike Anigbogu is a different type of big. He would classify as the rim protector, energy big (think Bismack Biyombo). His offensive game is a wreck and needs a ton of work but defensively he can give you a lot. He’s a big body off the bench that could come in handy for certain matchups or to chew up fouls until he can develop an offensive skillset.

    Looking ahead.

    In the 2019 offseason as constructed the team has $11M in cap space on a projected $108M cap.

    Irving and Rozier will both be Free Agents along with Theis, Baynes and Larken.
    Depending on how Irving comes back and health will determine if he’s retained. It’s possible to retain both Rozier and Irving should the both play well. We’d have to go over the luxury tax but its likely money well spent.

    Horford and Hayward will also be entering their last years of their contracts (assuming Horford opts in).

    We’ll potentially have 4 first round picks (1 projected top 10) in the 2019 offseason

    City of Champions

  7. #112
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    I've come to the dawning realization of what I hate about the NBA and it's pay structure:

    All the exeptions.

    Going through them:
    Larry Bird Exception - Don't have a problem with this one. The ability to play for a team and be able to stay with them and make as much as you can even if they are over the cap is ok.

    Early Bird Exception - Basically the Bird Rights, but they can't get as much money. Not terrible, but yea....this one is starting to get hazy.

    Non-Bird Exception - Ok, wait what? Now the guy doesn't even have to be there a full you and you can offer him a higher contract to stay? Yeesh.

    Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception - For this year it was $8.406 million that they can divide up as much as a team wants, as long as they don't go above the tax. At a certain point it' saying that you want a good team to be able to stay good with signing good players.

    Taxpayer mid-level exception - Ok this is where the NBA loses me. You got a team in the tax, yet you are giving them a path to sign a FA who isn't from their team to a deal up to, for this year $5.192 mil? Seriously NBA?

    ROOM MID-LEVEL EXCEPTION
    -
    - This exception is available only to teams that drop far enough below the cap to use cap room, and therefore lose their Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level and Taxpayer Mid-Level exceptions (see question number 26). This exception cannot be used if the team already has used the Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level or Taxpayer Mid-Level exception. This exception becomes available once the team salary drops far enough that the team loses its other exceptions, and expires following the last day of the regular season.
    WHAT THE HELL????? WHY DOES A TEAM WITH CAP ROOM NEED AN EXCEPTION?!?!

    Bi-Annual Exception - Can be used every other year as long as you used the other exception and it can take you above the cap. YOU ALREADY GOT RELIEF FOR GOING OVER THE SOFT CAP, HERE'S SOME MORE?!?! THAT BS.

    Rookie Exception - Ok this one I get. You don't want teams to have to sell their draft picks because they are over the cap.

    Minimum Player Salary Exception - Again....no real issue because you need to fill out a roster.

    Disabled player exception - Multiple parts.....Ok the signing a player I have no problem with. Trading for a player that/s no more than 50%+$100,000. This one is getting a little out there since you can get some sort of Bird rights to that player.

    Claim a player on waivers? Wait what? No, you should have to have the space to claim someone.

    Sorry but I've come to realize why the NBA economics is broken after studying this.

    You can go over the cap, and theortically still:
    - In that year sign a guy to a $8+mil deal, and another guy to a $3+mil deal.
    - And in that next year you could still sign another guy to a $5+mil deal.

    So you ca be over the cap and still add 3 solid players? Doesn't seem like a good way to help teams from tanking.

    PROCESSING

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I've come to the dawning realization of what I hate about the NBA and it's pay structure:

    All the exeptions.

    Going through them:
    Larry Bird Exception - Don't have a problem with this one. The ability to play for a team and be able to stay with them and make as much as you can even if they are over the cap is ok.

    Early Bird Exception - Basically the Bird Rights, but they can't get as much money. Not terrible, but yea....this one is starting to get hazy.

    Non-Bird Exception - Ok, wait what? Now the guy doesn't even have to be there a full you and you can offer him a higher contract to stay? Yeesh.

    Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception - For this year it was $8.406 million that they can divide up as much as a team wants, as long as they don't go above the tax. At a certain point it' saying that you want a good team to be able to stay good with signing good players.

    Taxpayer mid-level exception - Ok this is where the NBA loses me. You got a team in the tax, yet you are giving them a path to sign a FA who isn't from their team to a deal up to, for this year $5.192 mil? Seriously NBA?

    ROOM MID-LEVEL EXCEPTION
    -

    WHAT THE HELL????? WHY DOES A TEAM WITH CAP ROOM NEED AN EXCEPTION?!?!

    Bi-Annual Exception - Can be used every other year as long as you used the other exception and it can take you above the cap. YOU ALREADY GOT RELIEF FOR GOING OVER THE SOFT CAP, HERE'S SOME MORE?!?! THAT BS.

    Rookie Exception - Ok this one I get. You don't want teams to have to sell their draft picks because they are over the cap.

    Minimum Player Salary Exception - Again....no real issue because you need to fill out a roster.

    Disabled player exception - Multiple parts.....Ok the signing a player I have no problem with. Trading for a player that/s no more than 50%+$100,000. This one is getting a little out there since you can get some sort of Bird rights to that player.

    Claim a player on waivers? Wait what? No, you should have to have the space to claim someone.

    Sorry but I've come to realize why the NBA economics is broken after studying this.

    You can go over the cap, and theortically still:
    - In that year sign a guy to a $8+mil deal, and another guy to a $3+mil deal.
    - And in that next year you could still sign another guy to a $5+mil deal.

    So you ca be over the cap and still add 3 solid players? Doesn't seem like a good way to help teams from tanking.
    It's a love/hate relationship with me. On one hand, I really like it because it is so complex. The top GM's who know there way around it can use it to their advantage. While a lesser GM will be handicapped by it's complexity. To that extent I like it.

    I also prefer a soft cap that is complex vs no cap like MLB (which is by FAR the worst league structure cap wise).

    The NFL's hard cap is still the gold standard IMO. But I can see its limitations in the NBA where the elite talent pool is smaller. Smaller rosters. Etc. Where a hard cap has its downside as well.

    I wish there were a perfect system, but there really isn't. I enjoy working my way through the NBA cap structure. But that's probably because I'm an accounting grad and I like the NBA cap about as much as I like the US tax system and reading/exploiting it's loopholes.

    City of Champions

  9. #114
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    Thing with MLB though is there is a cap. There's just a point where you go past a soft tax and go into a luxury tax.

    What I hate about all of that is if you got a guy getting offered $14mil by a team under the cap, he would likely get offered the $8mil by a team over the cap. Chances are the team over the cap is better, so by giving them money close enough, it makes it harder for the 'lesser' team to get the guy without overpaying.

    They need to streamline these exceptions.

    Full Bird
    Early Bird
    Non-Tax Payer ($5mil)
    Tax Payer ($3mil)
    Rookie
    Injured player 'cap space'

    That's all they need. Can only use the Non-tax and tax payer 1 at a time. SO if you sign a 4 year $20mil deal, you can't use the Non-Tax player until that deal expires. If you go into the tax after that, you can't use both.

    PROCESSING

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Thing with MLB though is there is a cap. There's just a point where you go past a soft tax and go into a luxury tax.

    What I hate about all of that is if you got a guy getting offered $14mil by a team under the cap, he would likely get offered the $8mil by a team over the cap. Chances are the team over the cap is better, so by giving them money close enough, it makes it harder for the 'lesser' team to get the guy without overpaying.

    They need to streamline these exceptions.

    Full Bird
    Early Bird
    Non-Tax Payer ($5mil)
    Tax Payer ($3mil)
    Rookie
    Injured player 'cap space'

    That's all they need. Can only use the Non-tax and tax payer 1 at a time. SO if you sign a 4 year $20mil deal, you can't use the Non-Tax player until that deal expires. If you go into the tax after that, you can't use both.
    A tax is not a cap. A cap is a spending limit. MLB has no spending limit. If you want to have a BILLION dollar payroll, you can. It's just going to be expensive as hell.

    NBA does have an actual limit. An NBA team couldn't have a BILLION dollar payroll even if they wanted too.

    If a player is going to turn down $6M to be on a contender then that should be on the player. I have no issue with it.

    The thing about a hard cap that makes it so difficult in this league is the guaranteed contracts. In the NFL contracts are not fully guaranteed so teams can recover from bad contracts. If the NBA were to institute a hard cap, teams would shoot themselves in the foot with bad contracts all day long. And the smart ones would be more conservative so that would hurt the players because they wouldn't be spending as much money.

    So on one hand you'd have about 50% of the league completely cash strapped because they mis-managed their cap situation. And on the other you have good teams not spending money. I don't see how it would make the league better.

    Also teams that draft well would essentially be punished in the future. Take GS, BOS or PHI. Eventually when their young guys are due to get paid, they're not going to be able to re-sign them all because of the cap. So GS is going to have to pick from Curry, Thompson or Green - they can't pay them all under a hard cap. BOS would have to let Brown or Tatum walk. PHI would basically only be built around Embiid and Simmons once they're on non rookies deals with no avenue to add anything around them.

    I think you have to pick one or the other and make it work best for your league. Which the NBA has done. Streamling the exceptions only hurts the mid tier Free Agents because there will be less money to spend. It would take away a ton of exceptions that players sign each year, which ultimately lowers the total dollars spent. Good teams spending more money is a good thing for the players. The players would never agree to your scenario. And it benefits the competitive teams as well.

    City of Champions

  11. #116
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    Schröder imagined playing for Pacers or Bucks if Hawks decide to rebuild. Schröder mentioned that in a press conference in Germany. Bucks were linked to Schröder before we landed Bledsoe.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    A tax is not a cap. A cap is a spending limit. MLB has no spending limit. If you want to have a BILLION dollar payroll, you can. It's just going to be expensive as hell.

    NBA does have an actual limit. An NBA team couldn't have a BILLION dollar payroll even if they wanted too.

    If a player is going to turn down $6M to be on a contender then that should be on the player. I have no issue with it.

    The thing about a hard cap that makes it so difficult in this league is the guaranteed contracts. In the NFL contracts are not fully guaranteed so teams can recover from bad contracts. If the NBA were to institute a hard cap, teams would shoot themselves in the foot with bad contracts all day long. And the smart ones would be more conservative so that would hurt the players because they wouldn't be spending as much money.

    So on one hand you'd have about 50% of the league completely cash strapped because they mis-managed their cap situation. And on the other you have good teams not spending money. I don't see how it would make the league better.

    Also teams that draft well would essentially be punished in the future. Take GS, BOS or PHI. Eventually when their young guys are due to get paid, they're not going to be able to re-sign them all because of the cap. So GS is going to have to pick from Curry, Thompson or Green - they can't pay them all under a hard cap. BOS would have to let Brown or Tatum walk. PHI would basically only be built around Embiid and Simmons once they're on non rookies deals with no avenue to add anything around them.

    I think you have to pick one or the other and make it work best for your league. Which the NBA has done. Streamling the exceptions only hurts the mid tier Free Agents because there will be less money to spend. It would take away a ton of exceptions that players sign each year, which ultimately lowers the total dollars spent. Good teams spending more money is a good thing for the players. The players would never agree to your scenario. And it benefits the competitive teams as well.
    1 - I didn't really talk about a hard cap. There's much more to go through.

    2 - Streamlining the exceptions doesn't hurt mid tier Free Agents as much as you think. It hurts the better high spending teams being able to bring them in. Take away the combined potential $240mil in the Non-taxpayer money, take out teams not in the max, and take out teams under the cap, and you are talking about maybe $70 mil. That would be the same process with the other exceptions.

    I would bet when you do all the math of who actually has what exceptions available, you would end up with about $100mil. Unspent cap every year adds up to close to that.

    So no, it's not that there's less money to spend, it's that good teams have less money and teams under the cap would have to spend.

    I would add in stiffer penalties for being under the cap floor, and pull it up closer to the actual cap.

    PROCESSING

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    1 - I didn't really talk about a hard cap. There's much more to go through.

    2 - Streamlining the exceptions doesn't hurt mid tier Free Agents as much as you think. It hurts the better high spending teams being able to bring them in. Take away the combined potential $240mil in the Non-taxpayer money, take out teams not in the max, and take out teams under the cap, and you are talking about maybe $70 mil. That would be the same process with the other exceptions.

    I would bet when you do all the math of who actually has what exceptions available, you would end up with about $100mil. Unspent cap every year adds up to close to that.

    So no, it's not that there's less money to spend, it's that good teams have less money and teams under the cap would have to spend.

    I would add in stiffer penalties for being under the cap floor, and pull it up closer to the actual cap.
    Yes but you're assuming that with good teams spending less, the non good teams will spend more. That won't necessarily be the case. Mid tier and low end Free Agents would still be hurt.

    City of Champions

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    1 - I didn't really talk about a hard cap. There's much more to go through.

    2 - Streamlining the exceptions doesn't hurt mid tier Free Agents as much as you think. It hurts the better high spending teams being able to bring them in. Take away the combined potential $240mil in the Non-taxpayer money, take out teams not in the max, and take out teams under the cap, and you are talking about maybe $70 mil. That would be the same process with the other exceptions.

    I would bet when you do all the math of who actually has what exceptions available, you would end up with about $100mil. Unspent cap every year adds up to close to that.

    So no, it's not that there's less money to spend, it's that good teams have less money and teams under the cap would have to spend.

    I would add in stiffer penalties for being under the cap floor, and pull it up closer to the actual cap.
    Here's the list of teams and their number of players on exceptions. Being they could only use one at a time under your rules...

    ATL - 0
    BOS - 1 room
    BRK - 0
    CHA - 2 MLE
    CHI - 2 MLE
    CLE - 1 MLE
    DAL - 0
    DEN - 0
    DET - 4 (2 MLE, BI, room)
    GSW - 1 mini MLE
    HOU - 3 (MLE, BI)
    IND - 0
    LAC - 6 (MLE)
    LAL - 0
    MEM - 4 (3MLE, 1 BI)
    MIA - 1 (MLE)
    MIL - 1 MLE
    MIN - 2 (MLE, Room)
    NO - 3 MLE
    NYK - 1 (Room)
    OKC - 1 (MLE)
    ORL - 0
    PHI - 0
    PHO - 0
    POR - 0
    SAC - 0
    SAS - 1 (MLE)
    TOR - 1 (MLE)

    UTA - 0
    WAS - 1 (MLE)

    So 36 players on contracts through exceptions. Of the 16 playoff teams they account for 17 of them just over 50%. 50% of the league accounts for 51% of exceptions. That's not outrageous, it's right on que. 4 playoff teams used 0 exceptions. 9 playoff teams only had 1 which would be allowed in your rules. So basically you're targeting only 3 teams (HOU, NO, MIN) who have used multiple exceptions.

    I don't see this change having any sort of major impact in how teams currently operate.

    Additionally, next year you're only allowing ~12-16 teams to dish out exceptions instead of 30. That will absolutely impact mid tier Free Agents. Especially considering some teams on that list have no need to use an exception because they have cap space and won't be in playoff contention.
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 05-17-2018 at 09:15 AM.

    City of Champions

  15. #120
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    The NFL cap model would be good, but it's a non starter considering it is based on non-guaranteed contracts and the NBAPA would fight HARD to keep that from happening.
    MacLean's Law: Everywhere you go there will be a jerk. Corrolary: If you go somewhere by yourself you become a jerk.

    I don't care where anyone chooses to go in free agency. I really don't. Yes, KD "broke" the NBA for a year or two, but I can't blame him for going to the team that fit what he wanted.

    The worst part about the Warriors winning is that now I can't have an opinion without being a "homer" or a "hater". It used to be that dialogue had merit independent of accusations.

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