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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plague View Post
    I guess we will see how Barkely does and in a few years we can compare the 4 QB's to one another. I personally think the Browns made a mistake and that will play out over time. I understand about the importance of a franchise QB, I don't think Mayfield is a sure thing or even better than the other 3 QB's. I do think Barkely is heads above all other RB's and will make a considerable difference for the N.Y. Giants assuming he stays healthy.

    I think you are looking at the RB situation with blinders. You only see the RB's that succeed and not all the ones who failed.
    Your doing the same though look at high picked RBs that failed

    2014- Sankey highest RB picked 2nd round
    2013- Giovani Bernard highest RB picked 2nd round
    2012- Trent Richardson 3rd overall
    2010- CJ Spiler 9th overall
    2009- Knowshon Moreno 12th overall
    2008- Darren McFadden 4th overall

    There bust rate is just as high in the 1st round as it is in the other rounds. I can really brake this down more when I'm home if need be but all these guys where just as highly thought of at the time they where drafted as Barkley but ended up busts. Even throwing this out would you take a guy who will give you 6-7 years of elite play or 10+ years? Teams have seen this and that's why the RB has been so devalued.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench View Post
    Your doing the same though look at high picked RBs that failed

    2014- Sankey highest RB picked 2nd round
    2013- Giovani Bernard highest RB picked 2nd round
    2012- Trent Richardson 3rd overall
    2010- CJ Spiler 9th overall
    2009- Knowshon Moreno 12th overall
    2008- Darren McFadden 4th overall

    There bust rate is just as high in the 1st round as it is in the other rounds. I can really brake this down more when I'm home if need be but all these guys where just as highly thought of at the time they where drafted as Barkley but ended up busts. Even throwing this out would you take a guy who will give you 6-7 years of elite play or 10+ years? Teams have seen this and that's why the RB has been so devalued.
    lol - getting a little desperate to try and prove your point aren't you?

    Barkley was leaps and bounds a better prospect than all of these rb's coming out of college. You're comparing apples to oranges.

    You're also assuming these qbs were elite prospects, which, obviously they weren't.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench View Post
    Your doing the same though look at high picked RBs that failed

    2014- Sankey highest RB picked 2nd round
    2013- Giovani Bernard highest RB picked 2nd round
    2012- Trent Richardson 3rd overall
    2010- CJ Spiler 9th overall
    2009- Knowshon Moreno 12th overall
    2008- Darren McFadden 4th overall

    There bust rate is just as high in the 1st round as it is in the other rounds. I can really brake this down more when I'm home if need be but all these guys where just as highly thought of at the time they where drafted as Barkley but ended up busts. Even throwing this out would you take a guy who will give you 6-7 years of elite play or 10+ years? Teams have seen this and that's why the RB has been so devalued.
    Thats more your point. I am not trying debate which position has a higher bust rate, I am pointing out that you are not taking into consideration the bust rates of RB's when making the statement "you can find a good RB in any round". It's not as easy as just wait til the late rounds and we will find a good RB.

    My point in taking Barkely over Mayfield is that Barkely is the best RB coming out of college in more than a decade, better than Elliott. I don't feel that way about Mayfield. Even if you feel Mayfield is the best QB in the draft, do you feel the difference between him and the other 3 QB's is so great that you would pass on such a dominant RB like Barkely.

    I think the Browns made a mistake, something that can be said pretty much every season since the 1990's.
    Last edited by Plague; 05-03-2018 at 03:06 PM.

  4. #229
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    The bottom line is that you need both a solid RB to play with a decent line. I'll take a Dallas Cowboys O-Line 100 out of 100 with Frank Gore in his 30's than a NYG O-Line with Saquon Barkley. The Giants let Pugh and someone else walk who were their only decent O-Line players (and they were still terrible) and to replace that, all they did was severely overpay Nate Solder and draft Will Hernandez in the 2nd round. They got Omameh from the Jaguars and have an awful Flowers. But of course, this is a long term play (I think). Gettleman can address the O-Line next offseason and 2019 draft and he got his guy this year. I think the fact that they're in NY and they love star power, factored in big time in getting a RB that can be the face of the franchise. But they kept Eli at the helm (so they want to win now right?). But then traded away JPP (so they don't want to win now?...) Browns also drafted Callaway in the 3rd, which is a huge red flag just like Josh Gordon. Anyway, we're spending too much time discussing or arguing over two of the very few franchises that are currently worse and more dysfunctional than ours and making questionable moves left and right. Browns should've gotten a QB with their 1st pick, but the Giants should've gotten a QB also and Jets also, and Barkley should've been there at 4 for the Browns to take. That's how I feel about it at least. Eli is done and hasn't been elite for a while. They should've drafted Darnold or Rosen with the 2nd, traded or cut Eli and given money saved from that to Andrew Norwell and CJA.

    Who do you take? Sam Darnold (potential star), Andrew Norwell (top 5 OG) and CJA (very solid 1,000 yard 3down RB) or Eli Manning (bum), Patrick Omameh (bum) and Saquon Barkley (potential star)? To me it's pretty clear but to each their own.

    Players bust at all positions. And Barkley is the highest rated RB prospect along with AP and Trent. One is a hall of famer and the other a huge bust. Happens with left tackles, happens with QB's, happens to defensive linemen, and so forth. RB's are devalued but some obviously think Barkley is the next Barry Sanders or Bo Jackson. We shall see.
    Last edited by LRizzle; 05-03-2018 at 03:32 PM.
    BRUH

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRizzle View Post
    The bottom line is that you need both a solid RB to play with a decent line. I'll take a Dallas Cowboys O-Line 100 out of 100 with Frank Gore in his 30's than a NYG O-Line with Saquon Barkley. The Giants let Pugh and someone else walk who were their only decent O-Line players (and they were still terrible) and to replace that, all they did was severely overpay Nate Solder and draft Will Hernandez in the 2nd round. They got Omameh from the Jaguars and have an awful Flowers. But of course, this is a long term play (I think). Gettleman can address the O-Line next offseason and 2019 draft and he got his guy this year. I think the fact that they're in NY and they love star power, factored in big time in getting a RB that can be the face of the franchise. But they kept Eli at the helm (so they want to win now right?). But then traded away JPP (so they don't want to win now?...) Browns also drafted Callaway in the 3rd, which is a huge red flag just like Josh Gordon. Anyway, we're spending too much time discussing or arguing over two of the very few franchises that are currently worse and more dysfunctional than ours and making questionable moves left and right. Browns should've gotten a QB with their 1st pick, but the Giants should've gotten a QB also and Jets also, and Barkley should've been there at 4 for the Browns to take. That's how I feel about it at least. Eli is done and hasn't been elite for a while. They should've drafted Darnold or Rosen with the 2nd, traded or cut Eli and given money saved from that to Andrew Norwell and CJA.

    Who do you take? Sam Darnold (potential star), Andrew Norwell (top 5 OG) and CJA (very solid 1,000 yard 3down RB) or Eli Manning (bum), Patrick Omameh (bum) and Saquon Barkley (potential star)? To me it's pretty clear but to each their own.

    Players bust at all positions. And Barkley is the highest rated RB prospect along with AP and Trent. One is a hall of famer and the other a huge bust. Happens with left tackles, happens with QB's, happens to defensive linemen, and so forth. RB's are devalued but some obviously think Barkley is the next Barry Sanders or Bo Jackson. We shall see.
    I feel you can better argue what the N.Y Giants should of done with the 2nd pick because the N.Y. Giants only had 1 pick while the Browns could of had the best of both worlds by taking Barkely and a QB.

    I hope the Browns loved Mayfield that much more than the other QBs because they gave up a incredibly talented RB to get him over the other QB options.
    Last edited by Plague; 05-03-2018 at 03:50 PM.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppapuh86 View Post
    Vegas Phin1 - I challenge you to check and see who was on the Browns roster when they drafted T Rich and compare that roster to the one they had before the draft last week. The Browns aren't far off from competing and they are in a heck of a better situation than Miami is. Completely different front office so drafting T Rich is not fresh in their minds.

    Dallas o line is great. Dallas o line has helped make Zeke a border line All-Pro. Dallas great o line, Zeke a border line All-Pro had made Dak succeed at play action giving him 1 on 1 matchups while the defense is stacking the box for Zeke.
    But it shouldn't matter should it? They took the "best running back ever" (in Richardson) with the 3rd overall pick...he did absolutely nothing for the team but set them back a few more years. You say the Browns aren't that far off from competing, but they average one win every other season. That's definitely not competitive. And how are they in a better situation than Miami? We may only get close to the playoffs each season, where they come close to winning a game each year. I agree that they are trending in the right direction, but so are we. They have a young QB, so that's what gives them hope. We have lots of pieces of the puzzle (including at bare minimum a top 15 QB). Different front office or not, the Browns do remember how badly they failed at making a RB their priority and then sitting back to enjoy the nothing that he brought to the team. Organizations do remember...fan bases remember. I guarantee you it was discussed between the numerous new heads many times; it's inevitable.

    I get the point that you are making, I do. The problem is that you are positive that Barkley is a generational player (rated almost identically to Richardson several years ago)...one worthy of passing on your franchise QB. It's absolutely true that none of these QBs may end up worth a isht in the long run. But as a franchise, knowing you don't have a QB, then taking a RB and still not having a QB, it's just so insanely irresponsible IMO. I get why you would take Barkley and then Nelson...might be two of the best players in the draft...or in the league over time even. But it's still a RB and guard. Many teams say "you can't draft a guard in the first round"...many also say that "you shouldn't draft a RB in the first round". You would take both in the top 4 picks. Again, I get why you say you would. But from a "typical mentality", it so goes against what you are supposed to do. HUGE gamble. To each their own.

    And agreed on the o-line. You are just making my typical point/argument on here. Games are won and loss in the trenches. If you think that you are going to have a great RB or QB without a line, then you will have another thing coming. You may have a "great RB" and "great QB" with no line...but they are going to suck and be out of the league in no time. 90% of these players are only as successful as their lines allow them to be. QBs can't throw from their back and RBs can't run through walls. Dallas' great line allowed them a great running game...which took pressure off of the passing game and made Dak successful. To me, that shows that the line was the foundation of success...everything else was trickle down success due to the team that was in place for Zeke/Dak. Great players? Sure. But great without a line? I just can't believe that till I see it...crazy rare in the NFL.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRizzle View Post
    The bottom line is that you need both a solid RB to play with a decent line. I'll take a Dallas Cowboys O-Line 100 out of 100 with Frank Gore in his 30's than a NYG O-Line with Saquon Barkley. The Giants let Pugh and someone else walk who were their only decent O-Line players (and they were still terrible) and to replace that, all they did was severely overpay Nate Solder and draft Will Hernandez in the 2nd round. They got Omameh from the Jaguars and have an awful Flowers. But of course, this is a long term play (I think). Gettleman can address the O-Line next offseason and 2019 draft and he got his guy this year. I think the fact that they're in NY and they love star power, factored in big time in getting a RB that can be the face of the franchise. But they kept Eli at the helm (so they want to win now right?). But then traded away JPP (so they don't want to win now?...) Browns also drafted Callaway in the 3rd, which is a huge red flag just like Josh Gordon. Anyway, we're spending too much time discussing or arguing over two of the very few franchises that are currently worse and more dysfunctional than ours and making questionable moves left and right. Browns should've gotten a QB with their 1st pick, but the Giants should've gotten a QB also and Jets also, and Barkley should've been there at 4 for the Browns to take. That's how I feel about it at least. Eli is done and hasn't been elite for a while. They should've drafted Darnold or Rosen with the 2nd, traded or cut Eli and given money saved from that to Andrew Norwell and CJA.

    Who do you take? Sam Darnold (potential star), Andrew Norwell (top 5 OG) and CJA (very solid 1,000 yard 3down RB) or Eli Manning (bum), Patrick Omameh (bum) and Saquon Barkley (potential star)? To me it's pretty clear but to each their own.

    Players bust at all positions. And Barkley is the highest rated RB prospect along with AP and Trent. One is a hall of famer and the other a huge bust. Happens with left tackles, happens with QB's, happens to defensive linemen, and so forth. RB's are devalued but some obviously think Barkley is the next Barry Sanders or Bo Jackson. We shall see.
    Another reason to value the o-line is that although it helps your RB play better, it also helps him play longer (if you compare a very good line to a very bad one). One example I like to use is that Emmitt Smith gained half of his yards untouched for an early portion of his career behind that big nasty line. Of course he did take care of his body with things like chiro back when it was considered a little out there and probably ate well and rested as well. He always seemed to have a long term plan and it paid off, but I also think getting tackled by LB's and DB's might take less of a toll than getting hit and piled on by linemen every down, or stopped by linemen as LB's come crashing in on your unmoving target of a body compared to being able to twist and take a glancing shot a lot of the time when you are a few yards downfield.

  8. #233
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    No way am I going through the first four picks without taking a QB. A huge part of Clevelands lack of success is having poor QB play. They have been passing on using a high pick at QB the last several seasons they had to take one this season, its just my opinion that it could of been with the 4th pick instead of the 1st. The Browns defense is not the problem.

    As a side note I really like Carlos Hyde. However I feel you can't pass on Barkely to take Mayfield over the other 3 QB's.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plague View Post
    No way am I going through the first four picks without taking a QB. A huge part of Clevelands lack of success is having poor QB play. They have been passing on using a high pick at QB the last several seasons they had to take one this season, its just my opinion that it could of been with the 4th pick instead of the 1st. The Browns defense is not the problem.

    As a side note I really like Carlos Hyde. However I feel you can't pass on Barkely to take Mayfield over the other 3 QB's.
    Fair enough. Apparently, all of the top teams were in love with Mayfield. They had to take him at 1 or not at all. They did what they had to do to get their (supposed) franchise QB. Time will tell on this one.

    And again, the biggest issue here is what if they did take Barkley #1, Rosen went #2 to the Giants, and Darnold went #3 to the Jets. Then who is left? Allen? It was reported that they (Browns) didn't like Allen at all. So they end up with their franchise QB that they "don't like at all" and a hopeful superstar RB (rated similarly to what Richardson was a handful of years ago). I personally feel that the additions of Allen and Barkley would have been awesome (I actually think that Allen is going to work out at the next level...many do not). But what happens when they have a QB they don't like and Barkley is T.Rich2? I know it's unlikely, but can you imagine how catastrophic that would be? I mean everyone down to the cheerleaders would be fired for their incompetence if that happened.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas_Phin1 View Post
    Fair enough. Apparently, all of the top teams were in love with Mayfield. They had to take him at 1 or not at all. They did what they had to do to get their (supposed) franchise QB. Time will tell on this one.

    And again, the biggest issue here is what if they did take Barkley #1, Rosen went #2 to the Giants, and Darnold went #3 to the Jets. Then who is left? Allen? It was reported that they (Browns) didn't like Allen at all. So they end up with their franchise QB that they "don't like at all" and a hopeful superstar RB (rated similarly to what Richardson was a handful of years ago). I personally feel that the additions of Allen and Barkley would have been awesome (I actually think that Allen is going to work out at the next level...many do not). But what happens when they have a QB they don't like and Barkley is T.Rich2? I know it's unlikely, but can you imagine how catastrophic that would be? I mean everyone down to the cheerleaders would be fired for their incompetence if that happened.
    I am sure you didnt mean it that way but in your scenario of Barkely #1, Rosen #2, Darnold #3 you get Baker Mayfield at 4 not Allen.

    I am not sure what would happen as the Giants said they wanted Barkely from the get go that's why they turned down the Jets trade offer, if Barkely goes 1 the Giants might trade down or take a QB. Regardless you get to choose between Allen and at least 1 other QB likely Rosen. If Chubb goes 2 then you get too choose between 3 QB's
    Last edited by Plague; 05-03-2018 at 08:26 PM.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plague View Post
    I am sure you didnt mean it that way but in your scenario of Barkely #1, Rosen #2, Darnold #3 you get Baker Mayfield at 4 not Allen.

    I am not sure what would happen as the Giants said they wanted Barkely from the get go that's why they turned down the Jets trade offer, if Barkely goes 1 the Giants might trade down or take a QB. Regardless you get to choose between Allen and at least 1 other QB likely Rosen. If Chubb goes 2 then you get too choose between 3 QB's
    Woops...you're right.

    So that's true, you would have had your pick of two QBs; Allen or Mayfield (but it would have likely actually been Rosen or Allen). I agree that the combo of Barkley and Rosen or Allen would have been a good get IMO, but it still boils down to getting the player that they wanted to build a franchise around (and great player or no, you can't build a franchise around a RB...it's just illogical 99% of the time). They loved Mayfield's "moxy"; his leadership, his vocal approach, his winner's mentality/attitude, and his accuracy. To be fair, Rosen was called the opposite of Mayfield in most of those categories...Allen was just skill wise, light years away from Mayfield in their eyes. That being the case, they still would have been stuck with someone that they didn't actually want or believe in. We can think it's a good player all we want from the safety of our computers. They are the ones that actually know the people and have to suffer the consequences of their decisions. Even though I agree with your point in theory, I still think they did the "right thing" for the organization (or at least the "safe thing"). Just my opinion.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas_Phin1 View Post
    But it shouldn't matter should it? They took the "best running back ever" (in Richardson) with the 3rd overall pick...he did absolutely nothing for the team but set them back a few more years. You say the Browns aren't that far off from competing, but they average one win every other season. That's definitely not competitive. And how are they in a better situation than Miami? We may only get close to the playoffs each season, where they come close to winning a game each year. I agree that they are trending in the right direction, but so are we. They have a young QB, so that's what gives them hope. We have lots of pieces of the puzzle (including at bare minimum a top 15 QB). Different front office or not, the Browns do remember how badly they failed at making a RB their priority and then sitting back to enjoy the nothing that he brought to the team. Organizations do remember...fan bases remember. I guarantee you it was discussed between the numerous new heads many times; it's inevitable.

    I get the point that you are making, I do. The problem is that you are positive that Barkley is a generational player (rated almost identically to Richardson several years ago)...one worthy of passing on your franchise QB. It's absolutely true that none of these QBs may end up worth a isht in the long run. But as a franchise, knowing you don't have a QB, then taking a RB and still not having a QB, it's just so insanely irresponsible IMO. I get why you would take Barkley and then Nelson...might be two of the best players in the draft...or in the league over time even. But it's still a RB and guard. Many teams say "you can't draft a guard in the first round"...many also say that "you shouldn't draft a RB in the first round". You would take both in the top 4 picks. Again, I get why you say you would. But from a "typical mentality", it so goes against what you are supposed to do. HUGE gamble. To each their own.

    And agreed on the o-line. You are just making my typical point/argument on here. Games are won and loss in the trenches. If you think that you are going to have a great RB or QB without a line, then you will have another thing coming. You may have a "great RB" and "great QB" with no line...but they are going to suck and be out of the league in no time. 90% of these players are only as successful as their lines allow them to be. QBs can't throw from their back and RBs can't run through walls. Dallas' great line allowed them a great running game...which took pressure off of the passing game and made Dak successful. To me, that shows that the line was the foundation of success...everything else was trickle down success due to the team that was in place for Zeke/Dak. Great players? Sure. But great without a line? I just can't believe that till I see it...crazy rare in the NFL.
    Yes, it should matter who is on the roster. I'd be less likely to draft Barkley is the Browns roster was complete garbage. But their roster is actually pretty solid, except for Landry and his contract, and very young. I challenge you, again, to find where people were saying T Rich was the best RB ever. That's just a bogus claim.

    But you do have a qb in Tyrod Taylor, do you keep forgetting that? He doesn't need to be their qb for the next 10 years. Just a couple as they keep upgrading their roster THEN draft a qb high and contend while he is on a rookie deal. I'm on board with having a deep and talented roster THEN drafting your rookie franchise qb. Get your franchise qb on a rookie deal for 5 years and be able to make multiple runs (Seahawks and Eagles) Just the opposite of Ravens (Flacco)

    I think you need to read my other post where I said Barkley #1 and Nelson #4.
    Pair Nelson with Zeilter and the LT they drafted from Nevada (I think) and that's a solid o line for Barkley to run behind and Tyrod to throw behind and move around.

    How comes they weren't able to have the sustained success when Zeke wasn't playing?

  13. #238
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    Poppah, in regards to you fighting the notion that Trent wasn't highly regarded, here's a link to reddit where there are multiple links showing you how multiple sites had grades on him as the best RB since AP with a 93.5-94 grade which is unheard of. Only RB's to have received similar draft grades to Barkley were AP and Trent Richardson.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comment...richardson_to/

    And here are a bunch of stats and studies and bust rate info in regards to drafting RB's early.
    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/2/23...zekiel-Elliott

    So yeah, I feel like Browns made the right move taking the QB they wanted (because they DID NOT want Rosen or Josh Allen) but I feel like they should've taken Chubb 4th and not Ward. Think the Giants messed up far more.

    Zeke helped the pass game and the run game and offense when the Cowboys already had an established O-Line and had Romo and then Dak came in and was a great late pick and played well (also helped greatly by having a good o-line).
    I already went over my examples of how Gurley was a highly touted RB prospect and drafted highly but was mediocre for two years, Rams get Watkins to spread out defenses and a Top LT and also a solid C and all of a sudden everything changes and he's an MVP candidate.
    They all have trickle down effects and different parts help across the board.
    I rather have a stud OG like Nelson (OG's are getting very expensive) who's considered the safest pick in the history of the NFL draft by some, a chance at a franchise altering QB (all positions have bust rates, but I rather have a 50% shot at the more important position in the game, than 50% at getting a stud RB) or having a combo of Chubb and Myles Garrett for years to come than getting Barkley. I wouldn't have done what Browns did (Ward in 4th) or Giants (Barkley in 2nd) but like I said. Think Giants wanted a face of the franchise, NY cares about star power and marketability and selling jerseys, etc. Although you can say Darnold would've been better for all of those same reasons but whatever, Gettleman got the job because ownership still loves Eli and they gave the job to someone that wouldn't take a QB and push Eli out. Probably loyalty for what he's done for the franchise in the past but not the smart football move.
    BRUH

  14. #239
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    Fair point on T-rich's evaluation by most scouts.

    This still doesn't change my tune of drafting Barkley #1 and Nelson #4.
    Giants made the smart move taking Barkley #2 which will extend Eli's career and making 1 last run at a Super Bowl.

    Gurley was mediocre for only 2016 .
    2015 1,294 yard 10 TD in 13 games
    2016 1,212 yards 6 TD in 16 games
    2017 2,093 yards 19 TD in 16 games

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppapuh86 View Post
    Fair point on T-rich's evaluation by most scouts.

    This still doesn't change my tune of drafting Barkley #1 and Nelson #4.
    Giants made the smart move taking Barkley #2 which will extend Eli's career and making 1 last run at a Super Bowl.

    Gurley was mediocre for only 2016 .
    2015 1,294 yard 10 TD in 13 games
    2016 1,212 yards 6 TD in 16 games
    2017 2,093 yards 19 TD in 16 games
    Challenge accepted...exactly; not a bogus claim at all (Thanks LRizzle).

    And that's true, the team with the other Manning (multi-Pro Bowl Super Bowl winner) can use a good RB. Tyrod Taylor is nowhere near a franchise QB; functional yes, but not one to build a franchise around.

    Again, I get why you are saying everything that you are saying, I just can't agree with you from an organization's standpoint. If the Browns have a bad season with their brand new guard and RB and Buffalo's "throw away QB", then you have failed as an organization. If you lose with your franchise QB, then at least you have a few years to develop him and the team around him. Had they passed on a QB this year, I feel that it would be their only year running the show in Cleveland. What you are saying makes sense...I get it. But no one is going to make that call with your future not secured at QB; not if they like employment. Guess we have to agree to disagree on this one.

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