Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 16 of 16 FirstFirst ... 6141516
Results 226 to 236 of 236
  1. #226
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    22,374
    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Sorry for not responding earlier, but I was away for a mini-vacation (Baltimore ó got to see the Orioles and Red Sox 12-inning extravaganza).

    As for the question, Iíd first have to offer a disclaimer: I was 10 ó 1 month shy of my 11th birthday ó so I donít think my beliefs were well settled at that point. At my motherís behest, I was baptized and had been going to an Episcopal Sunday School as a kid, but I can say with some certainty that Christianity was not a big thing in our household.

    Then my mother was diagnosed in April and (if there is a silver lining) died in August, so it was relatively brief, though agonizing.

    So, I wasnít angry at God at the time because I didnít really have a strong belief in God to begin with. My mother died, we threw dirt on her coffin on a rainy day in Providence, RI, and that was pretty much the end of it. I remember some people saying that she was with God or something to that effect, which meant very little to me, seeing as I just saw her being put in the ground.

    As I matured and experienced more and more people preaching that God loves me and everything that happens is part of Godís plan and that my mother is looking down on me from heaven, and so on, I just finally came to the realization that in fact there is no God.

    Life went on as it was before.
    That's very young

    I also wasnt really religious at that age, everything seemed more like a bunch if set of rules to follow than anything else.

    I can pick up a feeling of frustration in regards to others telling you meaningless feel good phrases...? You know, those things that are always easy to say when looking from the outside in

    I'm curious, what do you think when hear people respond to a tragedy with an offer of prayers (I'll keep you in my prayers..)?
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  2. #227
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    22,374
    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    .

    And no, nastynice, I couldnt have guessed any of this. Everyone has a unique journey.
    Yes you could have, and probably did. Everything mentioned was pretty straight forward (of course if we were to start getting into details things would probably start getting more muddy).

    If someone were to tell you they were Muslim, could you not follow that up by saying oh they probably fast during Ramadan because that's what their religion teaches?

    You're not making any sense here...didnt my last post to you clarify mine and address your stance?
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  3. #228
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    14,656
    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Thereís a difference between being something and claiming to be something.

    If Jesus definitely WAS (IS) God, and there is corraborating evidence that Jesus existed, then we could extrapolate that there is evidence that God exists.

    If Jesus only CLAIMED he was (is) God, and there is corraborating evidence that Jesus existed, then there is still no evidence that God exists and we too can only CLAIM that God exists.

    Iíll bank on the latter.
    There are reasons outside of the Biblical account of Jesus' life to conclude that he was God. The first being that historical records, the writings that I referenced earlier, confirming that he was sentenced to death after performing "sorcery." This is the closest proof that we have that Jesus performed miracles during his life, which the Bible says that he did on many occasions. It would stand to reason that those who did not believe that he was God would of course conclude that what he was performing was some kind of sorcery, since they didn't believe that this God-man was performing miracles.

    The second significant piece of evidence is that there is absolutely no trace of bones that have ever been found and there never will be. We know that Jesus lived on this Earth and as I stated before that is something that most scholars will agree is fact, but we have no body. Of course, that's because Jesus was resurrected and no body will ever be found.

  4. #229
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,964
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    There are reasons outside of the Biblical account of Jesus' life to conclude that he was God. The first being that historical records, the writings that I referenced earlier, confirming that he was sentenced to death after performing "sorcery." This is the closest proof that we have that Jesus performed miracles during his life, which the Bible says that he did on many occasions. It would stand to reason that those who did not believe that he was God would of course conclude that what he was performing was some kind of sorcery, since they didn't believe that this God-man was performing miracles.

    The second significant piece of evidence is that there is absolutely no trace of bones that have ever been found and there never will be. We know that Jesus lived on this Earth and as I stated before that is something that most scholars will agree is fact, but we have no body. Of course, that's because Jesus was resurrected and no body will ever be found.
    Itís pretty clear that we are not going to agree on whether God exists, much less whether Jesus was God incarnate.

    For me, it is (and likely will be) a story ó told years ago that somehow evolved way out of proportion. That said, if it hadnít been Jesus as God, it would have been someone else. Humans seem to need that comfort.

  5. #230
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    14,656
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    I am an example of what the absence of God looks like. Can't follow a fallacy.

    If God disappeared, "poof". Would you become corrupt? Do you realize people can live by a moral code without God? Do you realize that people would win football games, land jet planes full of passengers in ice storms, and survive critical illnesses without him? You don't need God or prayer to have love and happiness.

    What you're telling me is that fear of God and/or the consequences of his existence keeps you - or others in line - and yet millions of atheists with no fear of God are moral and decent human beings. If depravity exists it exists with or without God, as does morality.
    That's all a bunch of feel good non-sense.

    What is good? What makes certain actions right or wrong? What is the source of moral obligation? What makes it binding? What guidelines do you measure your life by to conclude that you are a good person? Where did these moral guidelines originate?

    It isn't the fear of consequence that keeps a believer "in line." It's the love for the one who gave life that feeds the desire to obey.

  6. #231
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    14,656
    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    1) He lived on Earth? What do secular scholars think about the resurrection story?
    2) There is no secular account of this man performing miracles. Indeed, the first accounts of Jesus didn't appear until 40 years after his death. Would seem that a man performing "sorcery" would have made headlines much sooner, no?
    3)Archeology and history professors strongly disagree. They point out that Jews back then were nomadic tribes, not Egyptian subjects. And as for Egyptian texts, that's a riot, considering the Egyptians have denied this account from day 1. Alleged Egyptian texts would be the smoking gun to prove the case against them. But that's never been done.

    Noah's Ark? Evolution disproving Adam and Eve? Anything about that?
    The first accounts were recorded about 20 years after the events. As I stated, there was no debate about whether Jesus existed at the time. Records say that he did. Archaeological discoveries support these records. I appreciate your line of thought here, because it would also apply to his existence. If he did not exist, it stands to reason that at least one person would have sought to "set the record straight." That didn't happen, though. As of now, the records stating that he performed sorcery are the only ones that I know of.

    Modern day Egypt is predominantly muslim, so of course they will deny that early Egyptian records support the Biblical account, since it would conflict with their own religious text. But, none-the-less, they do. Most articles that seek to disprove the Bible or Biblical account are littered with fallacies, but accepted by a great majority who want desperately for the Bible to be disproven.

  7. #232
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    39,326
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    The first accounts were recorded about 20 years after the events. As I stated, there was no debate about whether Jesus existed at the time. Records say that he did. Archaeological discoveries support these records. I appreciate your line of thought here, because it would also apply to his existence. If he did not exist, it stands to reason that at least one person would have sought to "set the record straight." That didn't happen, though. As of now, the records stating that he performed sorcery are the only ones that I know of.

    Modern day Egypt is predominantly muslim, so of course they will deny that early Egyptian records support the Biblical account, since it would conflict with their own religious text. But, none-the-less, they do. Most articles that seek to disprove the Bible or Biblical account are littered with fallacies, but accepted by a great majority who want desperately for the Bible to be disproven.
    Forty years, not 20.

    Reports of his supermagical powers, which I suppose also appeareed 40 years after his death, were never verified. His after-death existence has never been verified. Wonderinbg, if reports of his sorcery didn't appear until 40 years after his death, how the hell was anyone going to say, "Nope, he never did any of that," especially since there was never any detail of exact time and place offered?

    A better question if that he was doing this, how come the whole immediate communitty didn't start writing about it and talking about it right then and there? At any rate, the the 40-year lapse presents a credibility problem for average skeptics if not true believers like yourself.

    And again, Modern day Egypt wouldn't have a leg to stand on if these texts existed. But alas, they do not.

    But you have faith so nothing i can impart here will hold any weight for you. Also, I'm not an archeologist or an historian so it would take me more time than I wish to find source material showing you what I'm talkikng about.

    You've said your piece; I've said mine. It was a pleasure.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  8. #233
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    East of the Sun, West of the Moon
    Posts
    26,853
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    That's all a bunch of feel good non-sense.

    What is good? What makes certain actions right or wrong? What is the source of moral obligation? What makes it binding? What guidelines do you measure your life by to conclude that you are a good person? Where did these moral guidelines originate?

    It isn't the fear of consequence that keeps a believer "in line." It's the love for the one who gave life that feeds the desire to obey.
    God does not exist in my life. I freely choose my behaviors. Why? Because of the benefits. I am honest with others bc it builds trust and trust brings fulfilling relationships, professional and personal.

    People are civil with or without God. People recover from illness with or without God. People find love with or without God. People are also corrupt with or without God.

    God brings meaning to those who canít forge meaning for themselves. Sounds to me that without God, you would not know what meaning you have or purpose you serve. Thatís the trap u fell into.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Baseball Maverick: How Sandy Alderson Revolutionized Baseball and Revived the Mets
    I am that Daddy Cool

  9. #234
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    14,656
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    God does not exist in my life. I freely choose my behaviors. Why? Because of the benefits. I am honest with others bc it builds trust and trust brings fulfilling relationships, professional and personal.

    People are civil with or without God. People recover from illness with or without God. People find love with or without God. People are also corrupt with or without God.

    God brings meaning to those who canít forge meaning for themselves. Sounds to me that without God, you would not know what meaning you have or purpose you serve. Thatís the trap u fell into.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    All people freely choose their behaviors. You never bothered to answer my question, though. By what moral standards do you consider yourself to be a good person? What is the origin of these moral guidelines, if not from God?

    I'll even go a step further. Do you believe in an afterlife? What meaning does your life have without one? Does anything you do actually matter if you cease to exist once you expire? What is your own purpose here?

  10. #235
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    East of the Sun, West of the Moon
    Posts
    26,853

    Is the Virgin Birth Scientifically Impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    All people freely choose their behaviors. You never bothered to answer my question, though. By what moral standards do you consider yourself to be a good person? What is the origin of these moral guidelines, if not from God?

    I'll even go a step further. Do you believe in an afterlife? What meaning does your life have without one? Does anything you do actually matter if you cease to exist once you expire? What is your own purpose here?
    My morals come from my parents. I watched their behavior. I watched my Christian father destroy his family and his life with violence and anger. I watched my non Christian mother treat others with love, respect, honesty, etc. Still I loved God as a young adult - but I came to realize ďthe trapĒ and the fallacy of his existence.

    As an adult and as an atheist my values were fordged through observation and experience - as well as respect for the law. Letís not pretend that Moses wrote the first laws either or that codes of behavior are only a Christian tradition. Laws are a byproduct of civilization.

    Afterlife? I sure hope so, but I do not expect to find a conscious and judgmental entity named ďGodĒ. An afterlife does not need a God to exist.

    Yeah, existence is terrifying on some levels without believing in a greater purpose and so we soothe ourselves with myths. But life has no inherent meaning so you must forge meaning for yourself. I found my meaning and purpose as a teacher, as artist, and as a husband. I empower, I create, and I love. What I do matters to the people I interact with. Itís rewarding. I donít need God to make my life purposeful.

    On the other hand, my wife absolutely believe her life is guided by His grace and His plan for her. I respect that because I love who she is and she is who she is because of her belief in God - but that does not make God real, it makes a belief in God powerful ó and under the right conditions a good thing.

    Some people need a supernatural life coach to guide them. Others see truth ó as uncomfortable as it is {we are alone and without a Father)) and take pride in our self-determination.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Dugmet; 06-14-2018 at 04:01 AM.
    Baseball Maverick: How Sandy Alderson Revolutionized Baseball and Revived the Mets
    I am that Daddy Cool

  11. #236
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    14,656
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    My morals come from my parents. I watched their behavior. I watched my Christian father destroy his family and his life with violence and anger. I watched my non Christian mother treat others with love, respect, honesty, etc. Still I loved God as a young adult - but I came to realize ďthe trapĒ and the fallacy of his existence.

    As an adult and as an atheist my values were fordged through observation and experience - as well as respect for the law. Letís not pretend that Moses wrote the first laws either or that codes of behavior are only a Christian tradition. Laws are a byproduct of civilization.

    Afterlife? I sure hope so, but I do not expect to find a conscious and judgmental entity named ďGodĒ. An afterlife does not need a God to exist.

    Yeah, existence is terrifying on some levels without believing in a greater purpose and so we soothe ourselves with myths. But life has no inherent meaning so you must forge meaning for yourself. I found my meaning and purpose as a teacher, as artist, and as a husband. I empower, I create, and I love. What I do matters to the people I interact with. Itís rewarding. I donít need God to make my life purposeful.

    On the other hand, my wife absolutely believe her life is guided by His grace and His plan for her. I respect that because I love who she is and she is who she is because of her belief in God - but that does not make God real, it makes a belief in God powerful ó and under the right conditions a good thing.

    Some people need a supernatural life coach to guide them. Others see truth ó as uncomfortable as it is {we are alone and without a Father)) and take pride in our self-determination.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I appreciate the candidness of your response. I'm also sorry that you had to grow up in such a situation. It's sad to me that your father shaped your view of Christianity like that. I will pose the question, though... did you father ever really know Jesus? Being a Christian is both a belief and a lifestyle. Simply calling yourself one doesn't make you one. People can spend their entire lives in church and never know Jesus or commit to the lifestyle of a Christian. That's because of what I said earlier. All people choose their own behaviors. The unfortunate consequence of that is that is that those who claim to be Christian but don't live the life of one cast a dark light on it and it effects the perception of Christianity to others. Simply saying that, "I am a Christian" or going to church every Sunday doesn't make you one. No more than saying "I am a good father" and seeing your kid for an hour once every week makes you a good father. People who don't open up the Bible and study that don't understand that, which is why so many heads start popping off their collars when I make statements like "Barack Obama was not a Christian man."

    I always find it interesting when those who don't believe in God or believe in God but not the Bible think that there will be an afterlife. The idea of "nothingness" makes sense to me from an atheist's perspective. The idea that someone can believe that there is no God but there is an afterlife does not. If life is nothing more than a mere phyiscal accident, how can a spiritual afterlife even be possible? If nothingness existed before life, without a God, there would be nothingness after. The idea that nothing exists after death would make everything in life entirely meaningless. The art you create, the relationships you forge, the knowledge you gain would all be pointless, as nothing would continue on beyond death and anything left behind would eventually be forgotten or expire when the Earth inevitably does.

    This "truth" you speak of has far less credibility than a belief in God, since it is based in nothing and supported by nothing than your own hope, so that you can avoid the idea that the life that you don't want to live is the only way to the good afterlife. I say good, because there exists another. It's a classic defense mechanism. If I choose not to believe it's true, it can't hurt me.
    Last edited by Jack the Ripper; 06-14-2018 at 01:52 PM.

Page 16 of 16 FirstFirst ... 6141516

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •