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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    How would he "be around"?

    Caped crusader jumping out of the sky?
    Why not? Heís God, isnít he? What precisely does he do that can be measured or observed?

    If he doesnít do anything that canít be measured or observed, whatís the difference whether he exists or not?

    Anyway, you asked why a negative incident would lead to not believing. If something really bad happened to me and God didnít help, why should I believe he was even there in the first place? Whatís the point?

    Thatís an atheistís perspective. I asked that question to my GF, a devout believer, and she told me her belief in God helps her get through such unspeakable tragedies.

    Maybe itís like Yanny and Laurel. Given similar circumstances, some see God; others do not.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Why not? Heís God, isnít he? What precisely does he do that can be measured or observed?

    If he doesnít do anything that canít be measured or observed, whatís the difference whether he exists or not?

    Anyway, you asked why a negative incident would lead to not believing. If something really bad happened to me and God didnít help, why should I believe he was even there in the first place? Whatís the point?

    Thatís an atheistís perspective. I asked that question to my GF, a devout believer, and she told me her belief in God helps her get through such unspeakable tragedies.

    Maybe itís like Yanny and Laurel. Given similar circumstances, some see God; others do not.
    If "he's" doing things that can be measured and observed, then why call "him" God? Why not just call "him" whatever you are observing. Like batman. Or ghandi?

    The difference whether he exists or not is the same as the difference in trying to learn how many galaxies there are 12 billion light years away. The pursuit of truth. Which will actually start having some very real and tangible effects on a person's inner being... but that's me getting ahead of myself

    Again, the point is the pursuit of truth. Not wether your friend pissed you off so now you blocked him from facebook

    Of course it's like Yanny and Laurel. Or else this forum wouldn't exist
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    If "he's" doing things that can be measured and observed, then why call "him" God? Why not just call "him" whatever you are observing. Like batman. Or ghandi?

    The difference whether he exists or not is the same as the difference in trying to learn how many galaxies there are 12 billion light years away. The pursuit of truth. Which will actually start having some very real and tangible effects on a person's inner being... but that's me getting ahead of myself

    Again, the point is the pursuit of truth. Not wether your friend pissed you off so now you blocked him from facebook

    Of course it's like Yanny and Laurel. Or else this forum wouldn't exist
    If he's not doing things that can be measured, why not just call him "Nothing?"
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    If he's not doing things that can be measured, why not just call him "Nothing?"
    Again, pursuit of truth. We are wired to want to gain knowledge, understand life, and understand ourselves

    Also, again, this can play a major role in self reflection and internal growth. That's why this knowledge is so important to us
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Again, pursuit of truth. We are wired to want to gain knowledge, understand life, and understand ourselves

    Also, again, this can play a major role in self reflection and internal growth. That's why this knowledge is so important to us
    What does believing in something that cannot be measured, observed, or tested have to to with a ďpursuit of truth?Ē Seems like youíre doing the opposite. Also seems like weíve had this conversation before.

    I know youíre convinced God exists. I get that. Pointing out to you that it canít be measured, observed, etc. wonít change that. Iíll say thereís no evidence. Youíll say there is, even though it canít be measured, observed, etc.

    This time it began when you asked why tragic events lead atheists to a lack of belief. I answered that already.

    So letís not go down the rabbit hole again. Itís just not worth it.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    What does believing in something that cannot be measured, observed, or tested have to to with a ďpursuit of truth?Ē Seems like youíre doing the opposite. Also seems like weíve had this conversation before.

    I know youíre convinced God exists. I get that. Pointing out to you that it canít be measured, observed, etc. wonít change that. Iíll say thereís no evidence. Youíll say there is, even though it canít be measured, observed, etc.

    This time it began when you asked why tragic events lead atheists to a lack of belief. I answered that already.

    So letís not go down the rabbit hole again. Itís just not worth it.
    You didn't answer anything, matter of fact you seemed to get annoyed that I was conversing with you under the premise of hardship leading to lack of belief, which was my entire question in the first place

    I never went down a rabbit hole, you're the one who keeps asking what difference it makes and so I answered that for you
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    You didn't answer anything, matter of fact you seemed to get annoyed that I was conversing with you under the premise of hardship leading to lack of belief, which was my entire question in the first place

    I never went down a rabbit hole, you're the one who keeps asking what difference it makes and so I answered that for you
    lol, you can't even agree when i give you an answer, Paraphrasing, you asked why atheists reject God in times of crisis. The answer is that God never helps when asked. It doesnt matter whether God chose not to help or simply didnt exist in order to help. Indeed, there is no difference in our eyes.

    I get that there's a great difference in your eyes.

    But you were asking why WE don't believe.

    Lol, will you now agree that i answered your question?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    lol, you can't even agree when i give you an answer, Paraphrasing, you asked why atheists reject God in times of crisis. The answer is that God never helps when asked. It doesnt matter whether God chose not to help or simply didnt exist in order to help. Indeed, there is no difference in our eyes.

    I get that there's a great difference in your eyes.

    But you were asking why WE don't believe.

    Lol, will you now agree that i answered your question?
    Well if you follow the conversation you kinda back track your own answer. Because when you mentioned this, I then asked why is it that in a time of crisis you expect God to help you?

    From that you kinda went the generic route and said nothing he does is measurable, so there's no need to believe, basically leading down that rabbit hole you mentioned

    If we leave the rabbit hole to the side and focus on this specific conversation, then I'm still wondering what is the logic that God not helping during bad times = God must not exist. I don't see any logic behind that, and so that's what I'm trying to understand, because from what I see that is an illogical approach rooted in emotion rather than reason
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Well if you follow the conversation you kinda back track your own answer. Because when you mentioned this, I then asked why is it that in a time of crisis you expect God to help you?

    From that you kinda went the generic route and said nothing he does is measurable, so there's no need to believe, basically leading down that rabbit hole you mentioned

    If we leave the rabbit hole to the side and focus on this specific conversation, then I'm still wondering what is the logic that God not helping during bad times = God must not exist. I don't see any logic behind that, and so that's what I'm trying to understand, because from what I see that is an illogical approach rooted in emotion rather than reason
    That's a straw man. Your original question specifically asked about bad times. Also, we're not saying "God must not exist."

    We're saying that since God doesnt seem to help in bad times and can't even be measured, tested, or observed what's the difference whether he exists or not? So we don't believe he exists.

    How's that?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  10. #190
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    If right now God disappeared, poof! He gone. What would change on earth? No one would win a football game? No one would beat cancer? No one would land a jet safely in the middle of an ice storm?
    Baseball Maverick: How Sandy Alderson Revolutionized Baseball and Revived the Mets
    I am that Daddy Cool

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    If right now God disappeared, poof! He gone. What would change on earth? No one would win a football game? No one would beat cancer? No one would land a jet safely in the middle of an ice storm?
    The Bible says that Christ works in our lives (Jeremiah 29:11), works through us (John 14:12), is the reason for what is good in us (John 15:1-27), works in us (Philippians 2:13), and that peace only comes from him in an evil world (John 16:33).

    If God were to vanish, the change would be seen every where and in every life. Love does not exist without God. Neither does good. Without God, evil, depravity, wickedness, sin, etc. would all take over and consume the Earth. The answer to your question is actually in the Bible. People have been abandoning God and turning to sin. Just looking at pop culture now versus pop culture in the 50s, the content of movies and music, what is deemed appropriate or acceptable now, it is just one example of what happens when God is removed. We have Hollywood perverts giving a standing ovation to a unhinged fool because he said "F--- Trump." Pictures of celebrities participating in spirit cooking and other Satanic rituals all while ignorantly believing that it's "just art." Pedophilia and rape are rampant throughout. This is just one example in one small corner of the world what happens when God is removed from life. Humans will inevitably take every part of life in an increasingly more depraved and sinful direction and foolishly call it "progressive." God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of the wickedness of humans. He will one day destroy the Earth for the very same reason. Human depravity will engulf the Earth and God is eventually going to pull the plug on this thing and pour out his wrath on those who refused to listen. That's what the book of Revelation is about.

    To your question, though, without God, evil would entirely destroy the Earth and those who said that God could not be seen would realize that all good came from him.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    The Bible says that Christ works in our lives (Jeremiah 29:11), works through us (John 14:12), is the reason for what is good in us (John 15:1-27), works in us (Philippians 2:13), and that peace only comes from him in an evil world (John 16:33).

    If God were to vanish, the change would be seen every where and in every life. Love does not exist without God. Neither does good. Without God, evil, depravity, wickedness, sin, etc. would all take over and consume the Earth. The answer to your question is actually in the Bible. People have been abandoning God and turning to sin. Just looking at pop culture now versus pop culture in the 50s, the content of movies and music, what is deemed appropriate or acceptable now, it is just one example of what happens when God is removed. We have Hollywood perverts giving a standing ovation to a unhinged fool because he said "F--- Trump." Pictures of celebrities participating in spirit cooking and other Satanic rituals all while ignorantly believing that it's "just art." Pedophilia and rape are rampant throughout. This is just one example in one small corner of the world what happens when God is removed from life. Humans will inevitably take every part of life in an increasingly more depraved and sinful direction and foolishly call it "progressive." God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of the wickedness of humans. He will one day destroy the Earth for the very same reason. Human depravity will engulf the Earth and God is eventually going to pull the plug on this thing and pour out his wrath on those who refused to listen. That's what the book of Revelation is about.

    To your question, though, without God, evil would entirely destroy the Earth and those who said that God could not be seen would realize that all good came from him.
    Uh huh.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDmGhethEoQ
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    That's a straw man. Your original question specifically asked about bad times. Also, we're not saying "God must not exist."

    We're saying that since God doesnt seem to help in bad times and can't even be measured, tested, or observed what's the difference whether he exists or not? So we don't believe he exists.

    How's that?
    Well that doesn't really answer what I was asking then. I was asking specifically about the idea that going through bad times leading someone to the conclusion that God doesn't exist. That's what I was curious about hearing, the reasoning behind that
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    If right now God disappeared, poof! He gone. What would change on earth? No one would win a football game? No one would beat cancer? No one would land a jet safely in the middle of an ice storm?
    God doesn't disappear and appear, you still seem to not be able to grasp fundamental concepts about God and seem to view him as the creation, not creator (as evidence by your earlier insistence that he be measurable)

    If there is no creator, then there is no creation.

    Your concept of god seems to be much more in line with Jack the rippers, neither of which make much sense to me. Not saying that makes either of you wrong, but pointing out why it is we're having a hard time understanding one another..
    Last edited by nastynice; 06-12-2018 at 04:14 PM.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    The Bible says that Christ works in our lives (Jeremiah 29:11), works through us (John 14:12), is the reason for what is good in us (John 15:1-27), works in us (Philippians 2:13), and that peace only comes from him in an evil world (John 16:33).

    If God were to vanish, the change would be seen every where and in every life. Love does not exist without God. Neither does good. Without God, evil, depravity, wickedness, sin, etc. would all take over and consume the Earth. The answer to your question is actually in the Bible. People have been abandoning God and turning to sin. Just looking at pop culture now versus pop culture in the 50s, the content of movies and music, what is deemed appropriate or acceptable now, it is just one example of what happens when God is removed. We have Hollywood perverts giving a standing ovation to a unhinged fool because he said "F--- Trump." Pictures of celebrities participating in spirit cooking and other Satanic rituals all while ignorantly believing that it's "just art." Pedophilia and rape are rampant throughout. This is just one example in one small corner of the world what happens when God is removed from life. Humans will inevitably take every part of life in an increasingly more depraved and sinful direction and foolishly call it "progressive." God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of the wickedness of humans. He will one day destroy the Earth for the very same reason. Human depravity will engulf the Earth and God is eventually going to pull the plug on this thing and pour out his wrath on those who refused to listen. That's what the book of Revelation is about.

    To your question, though, without God, evil would entirely destroy the Earth and those who said that God could not be seen would realize that all good came from him.
    I abandon God and did not turn to sin. I found love -- really amazing, true, love. Worked for me.
    Abandonment is not the same as God disappearing, "poof!"
    Baseball Maverick: How Sandy Alderson Revolutionized Baseball and Revived the Mets
    I am that Daddy Cool

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