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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    All of the player metrics that want the evaluate a players performance for a single season or career eg ESPN RPM Wins, Win Shares, utilize "total numbers". In fact "total numbers" are usually the basis for the most popular advanced metrics.



    ^
    Ok, here's where I really want to make my point.

    LeBron did play 2,966 minutes in '09-10. James had a much better season that Durant -- the runner up -- that year.

    If Harden were to win the MVP this year, he would be the only player outside of Bill Walton '88 (71%), Bob Cousy '57 (89%), and Allen Iverson '01 (87%) to win the MVP while playing less than 90% of the regular season schedule in the over 63 years of the award. Walton and Cousy are pre-1980 exceptions under the old voting rules where the players, instead of the sportwriters decided the MVP.

    Iverson is comparable. Iverson in 2001 however, played 42 mpg, or 395 more minutes than '18 Harden. In fact no player in modern times has won the award playing as little of minutes as Harden, currently at 2551 total minutes. Steve Nash beat out Shaq by just 34 points in 2006, playing just 2572 minutes, but Shaq played just 73 games/2492 minutes. Usually teams need their best players on the floor for longer periods of time to compete. If the Rockets can win 66 games at a +8.7 scoring margin without Harden on the floor for over 35% of the time, then how valuable is he? It's the reason Nash won in 2006, Shaq played alongside Dwyane Wade -- he was just as dominant. Iverson won in 2001, Shaq played alongside a stellar Kobe Bryant season in 2001, Duncan played with David Robinson, who did Iverson have in the eyes of the media?

    Well, Harden has Chris Paul -- he's likely going to get a good bit of top 5 MVP votes. If that's the case then post-1980 only Jordan in '96 and Moses Malone '83 won the MVP with a teammate in the top 5 -- Jordan and Malone played 82 games/3091 minutes and 78 games/2925 minutes respectively.



    I disagree, Harden's numbers are not better than James numbers this season, especially when you factor in that James played 9 or 10 more games.


    Defense is tough to quantify. This has been one of James' worst defensive performances in his career. That said, he's still -- from what I gather -- an above average defender. Harden is finishing his best defensive performance in his career. That said, he's still a below average defender.



    You may be right with Harden winning it. I definitely agree that he deserved it more than Westbrook last year. But if they're going to give it to Westbrook last year, with the Thunder winning just 47 games, it's no question to me that James should win it this year. He has better individual numbers than Harden this year and last, and better numbers than Westbrook's MVP season -- Westbrook missed over 1100 shots and turned it over well over 400 times.

    James again, has over 2200 pts, 750 assists, and 700 rebounds. The Cavs have won over 60% of their games with 18 different starting lineups -- the constant is LeBron James. The Cavs went 0-8 last year without James, and that was with Kyrie Irving in most of those games. The team surrounding James is considerably worst this year minus Kyrie. Kevin Love has missed 20 games for the 2nd consecutive year. They've won just as many games without Kyrie and 18 different lineup changes because James elevated his game. If they were 0-8 last year without LeBron, I doubt they'd win 20 games if James were out for the season this year.

    Meanwhile the Rockets don't even need Harden on the floor over 60% of the time to obliterate opponents. The Rockets went 6-3 this season without Harden with a +80 point differential.

    Eric Gordon should be sixth man of the year again, before you shout out Lou Williams .. go study what Gordon has been doing on the defensive end.

    Clint Capela is a defensive player of the year candidate.

    Chris Paul is likely to finish top 5 in the MVP voting.

    The Rockets role players are the best in the NBA this season.

    After you consider all this information. Honestly, you tell me who is more valuable, LeBron James or James Harden? It's not that close.
    I wonder if the Cavs win games via 80 point differential without LeBron. Oh, and the third best player on the Cavs is Jeff Green.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    I wonder if the Cavs win games via 80 point differential without LeBron. Oh, and the third best player on the Cavs is Jeff Green.
    And last but not least... they're a 4 seed. This would feel like a much more relevant take if they were anywhere close to the Rockets record. Or the Raptors, for that matter.

  3. #168
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    "I have an opinion on this year's MVP race."
    All right, let's discuss this. Here's some facts.
    "Stop being a total jerk! You're hurting my feelings! Stop counterposting my posts on an online debate forum! I have a right to my opinion but you don't have the right to argue against it!"



    God damn, people.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    How is that a flawed logic?

    All that means is that people think someome should win based on a certain set of criteria but know the majority will vote on different set of criteria.

    Its like saying Ken Griffey Jr SHOULD be a unanomous HOF but based on flawed standards used by voters, he wont be voted unanimous.

    Theres still guus out there who vote pitchers Cy Young award based on wins.
    So, I see your point here. But I think this is a little different then the takes I'm seeing from specific PSD posters (namely Flashbolt) who suggest that Harden deserves to win, but that he wouldn't personally vote for Harden. That's totally contradictory to me.

    But, yeah, I get the whole "I think this person will win, but I'd personally vote for someone else" conversation.

    And I have no interest in discussing if you are going to get overly emotional.
    OK, but nobody's forcing you to respond to me. And if you know I'm going to get emotional over my favorite player and my favorite team, I can't force you to debate. That's OK.

    The purpose of to debaye is to influence the other person.
    In a perfect world? Absolutely. But this is PSD.

    We are at the point where you already disagree before i even say it and to put a cherry on top, we (and everyone else here) both know we're 1 post away from you trashing the next "Anti Harden" post while talking about digging their grandma's grave and banging her corpse.
    The thing is that I don't disagree with some of the points that some posters have made. Paul coming to Houston, Harden's quality teammates and his somewhat lackluster play in March/April should have a small impact on Harden's candidacy. I'm not debating that. I just don't think those three factors alone come close to derailing a guy who's statistically having a superior season to everyone else in the league and who plays on the best team in the league.

    If we look at the history of the award, the two greatest factors have always been:
    1. Who has the best numbers?
    2. How good is his team?

    Harden kills it in both categories. So those other factors, for me, are totally negligible by comparison. People can certainly bring those points up, but how can you possibly justify them being enough to derail an exemplary MVP season? I just don't see the justification for it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    "I have an opinion on this year's MVP race."
    All right, let's discuss this. Here's some facts.
    "Stop being a total jerk! You're hurting my feelings! Stop counterposting my posts on an online debate forum! I have a right to my opinion but you don't have the right to argue against it!"



    God damn, people.
    That's not the point. It's the part where you guys ignore context in evaluating the teams - in which both you and MTB have acknowledged that Harden has the better team. But hey, if you think a Raptors fan is upset because LeBron isn't winning MVP, go for it. We're all entitled to our opinion but MBT forcing his "absolute" answer to the rest defeats the purpose of wanting to discuss with him. It's not like we're comparing LeBron to Kobe in which LeBron is clearly the better player. Harden is not "clearly" having a better season. His team is and Harden is the primary beneficiary of that and vice-versa. How many games have the Rockets won where Harden has a poor game? I can't remember LeBron having poor games and his team still pulling wins out.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    So, I see your point here. But I think this is a little different then the takes I'm seeing from specific PSD posters (namely Flashbolt) who suggest that Harden deserves to win, but that he wouldn't personally vote for Harden. That's totally contradictory to me.

    But, yeah, I get the whole "I think this person will win, but I'd personally vote for someone else" conversation.


    OK, but nobody's forcing you to respond to me. And if you know I'm going to get emotional over my favorite player and my favorite team, I can't force you to debate. That's OK.


    In a perfect world? Absolutely. But this is PSD.


    The thing is that I don't disagree with some of the points that some posters have made. Paul coming to Houston, Harden's quality teammates and his somewhat lackluster play in March/April should have a small impact on Harden's candidacy. I'm not debating that. I just don't think those three factors alone come close to derailing a guy who's statistically having a superior season to everyone else in the league and who plays on the best team in the league.

    If we look at the history of the award, the two greatest factors have always been:
    1. Who has the best numbers?
    2. How good is his team?

    Harden kills it in both categories. So those other factors, for me, are totally negligible by comparison. People can certainly bring those points up, but how can you possibly justify them being enough to derail an exemplary MVP season? I just don't see the justification for it at all.
    How is it contradictory?

    "Warriors should win the NBA Championship but Houston can beat them."

    Is that contradictory to you? No, because it isn't. You just read what you want to see.

    Just like when I say, Harden should win the NBA MVP but I would vote for LeBron."

    There's nothing contradictory about it.

  7. #172
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    Harden will win the award, the media has given it away like they did last year and previous years when saying it over and over on a daily basis

    Harden is in a tougher overall conference with a better w-l record, both are going to have the stats to back up whatever they are playing for, Harden has been on a 6 yr stretch while Bron has doubled that plus some

    the thing is once people realize that Rockets were 5 games back at one point this season and are going to win the West best record by like 7-8games, that's a 12-13 increase in total, crazy, Harden is mvp, especially after hearing all the backlash after the cp3 deal and how non basketball players were saying it wasn't going to work and they even had a few actual former nba players agree publicly but probably thought diff. privately

    Lebron or Harden could be going for a 3rd mvp in the past 4 yrs, Curry deserved his one for sure, the other was a toss up, Westbrook didn't win enough but he shafted Leonard/Harden last year with his triple double feat, actually I am glad Westbrook won the mvp because his motor/tenacity/attack mode reminds me of Iverson

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    How is it contradictory?

    "Warriors should win the NBA Championship but Houston can beat them."

    Is that contradictory to you? No, because it isn't. You just read what you want to see.

    Just like when I say, Harden should win the NBA MVP but I would vote for LeBron."

    There's nothing contradictory about it.
    you are just nut hugging at this point

    if harden should win the nba mvp then you should vote for him if that's how you feel, you don't owe bron money do you? then I would say make that political vote count, but this is just purely eye test criteria on what a mvp is, like I said in other posts both could have 3 mvps past 4 seasons, Harden could have won in 15' or James, Harden last and this year, same as James

    but I wouldn't have voted for Davis last year, neither this year and he is way more worthy of getting more votes because to me his is a mvp candidate based on pure ability/numbers, but the thing is his team doesn't ''win enough'' games

    Harden has the best record / best player on team, same as how Curry / Nash and others have won it prior, it will be the same, Bron is just like the player number he wears, Jordan could have won it every year but it just doesn't work out like that

    you are not being contradictory, just petty, but its your free will to be what you want so I respect that

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    All of the player metrics that want the evaluate a players performance for a single season or career eg ESPN RPM Wins, Win Shares, utilize "total numbers". In fact "total numbers" are usually the basis for the most popular advanced metrics.
    And despite that, Harden still leads the league in a cumulative statistic like win shares.

    LeBron did play 2,966 minutes in '09-10. James had a much better season that Durant -- the runner up -- that year.
    He also played 76 games in 2012-13. And if we're going to argue that he was much better than Durant, I'd argue that Harden has been much better than Lebron.

    If Harden were to win the MVP this year, he would be the only player outside of Bill Walton '88 (71%), Bob Cousy '57 (89%), and Allen Iverson '01 (87%) to win the MVP while playing less than 90% of the regular season schedule in the over 63 years of the award. Walton and Cousy are pre-1980 exceptions under the old voting rules where the players, instead of the sportwriters decided the MVP.
    This is actually a fair point. But at what point do you factor in the two games where Harden got rest because his team was so far ahead of the rest of the league that he could afford it? If we factor in those two games, he'd be sitting at 75 games, only one less than Lebron's 09-10 and 12-13 years and the same number as Nash in 04-05.

    Iverson is comparable. Iverson in 2001 however, played 42 mpg, or 395 more minutes than '18 Harden. In fact no player in modern times has won the award playing as little of minutes as Harden, currently at 2551 total minutes. Steve Nash beat out Shaq by just 34 points in 2006, playing just 2572 minutes, but Shaq played just 73 games/2492 minutes. Usually teams need their best players on the floor for longer periods of time to compete.
    But it's a different league, chief. You're trying to use a blanket statement for something that isn't nearly as relevant today as it was as little as 10 years ago. Guys get rest today and they don't play a ton of minutes. A few months ago, I was looking at the number of players who played 35+ minutes in the league this season versus 10-15 years ago, and the difference is pretty staggering.

    You can see this in MVPs of the last few seasons. Curry and Westbrook won the last three MVPs playing fewer than 35 minutes per game. In fact, in total, Harden will probably come up fewer than 50 total minutes from Curry's total minutes of 2,613 in the 2014-15 season, a year in which he posted inferior numbers to Harden.

    If the Rockets can win 66 games at a +8.7 scoring margin without Harden on the floor for over 35% of the time, then how valuable is he? It's the reason Nash won in 2006, Shaq played alongside Dwyane Wade -- he was just as dominant. Iverson won in 2001, Shaq played alongside a stellar Kobe Bryant season in 2001, Duncan played with David Robinson, who did Iverson have in the eyes of the media?
    It's pretty obvious isn't it? They're outscoring teams because they get 48 minutes of elite point guard play every night. Their second unit with Paul is the best second unit in basketball. Oh, and there's the fact that Harden is putting up otherworldly numbers while he's on the floor and creating points in isolation at a historic rate.

    Well, Harden has Chris Paul -- he's likely going to get a good bit of top 5 MVP votes. If that's the case then post-1980 only Jordan in '96 and Moses Malone '83 won the MVP with a teammate in the top 5 -- Jordan and Malone played 82 games/3091 minutes and 78 games/2925 minutes respectively.
    OK, so let's turn this whole "total minutes" conversation around for a minute. Paul is playing less than 32 minutes per night and has missed nearly a third of the season. Even if he played all 48 minutes tonight, he's not going to top 1,900 minutes this season. A total NBA season (not including overtime) is 3,936 minutes. So, he'll end up having played only about 47-48 percent of the season.

    How is having less than half a season of Paul detrimental to Harden's MVP case? I just don't see the logic there, especially based on your own emphasis of total minutes.

    I disagree, Harden's numbers are not better than James numbers this season, especially when you factor in that James played 9 or 10 more games.
    We can agree to disagree, then. Average stats have always been a better indicator of who has had the better season. I've been watching basketball for more than two decades, and I've literally never seen an analyst compare two players in an MVP conversation by looking at their total stats. It's averages, dude. It's always been averages. You can certainly disagree on this point, but you'll be in the vast minority.

    Defense is tough to quantify. This has been one of James' worst defensive performances in his career. That said, he's still -- from what I gather -- an above average defender. Harden is finishing his best defensive performance in his career. That said, he's still a below average defender.
    But Lebron hasn't been above average this season. I don't think you'll find many analysts or experts who would argue that.

    You may be right with Harden winning it. I definitely agree that he deserved it more than Westbrook last year. But if they're going to give it to Westbrook last year, with the Thunder winning just 47 games, it's no question to me that James should win it this year.
    The difference between the Thunder and Rockets record-wise is far less than the difference between the Cavs and Rockets record-wise this season. Also, I think most people would agree that Westbrook won the award solely on the "averaging a triple double" accomplishment, whether it was warranted or not. It had little to do with his team's performance.

    He has better individual numbers than Harden this year and last, and better numbers than Westbrook's MVP season -- Westbrook missed over 1100 shots and turned it over well over 400 times.
    Except he doesn't have better numbers than Harden this season. That's your own (unusual) interpretation of their numbers.

    The Cavs went 0-8 last year without James, and that was with Kyrie Irving in most of those games.
    So what? Why are you using stats from last year to make a case for Lebron winning it this year? You were doing pretty well in this post until this totally useless stat.

    Kevin Love has missed 20 games for the 2nd consecutive year.
    So did Paul. In fact, every single significant rotational piece for Houston, aside from Tucker, will end up missing at least seven games. And only Harden, Capela and Tucker will end up playing at least 70+ games.

    They've won just as many games without Kyrie and 18 different lineup changes because James elevated his game. If they were 0-8 last year without LeBron, I doubt they'd win 20 games if James were out for the season this year.
    Also, people keep bringing up the 18 different starting lineups stat. I fail to see how that helps him. The only reason they had 18 different starting lineups is:
    1. Kyrie was traded, causing a total roster shakeup that the team could never figure out. Lebron is at least partially responsible for Kyrie's exit.
    2. The team had another total roster shakeup midseason after the team totally underwhelmed midyear. Lebron is absolutely partially responsible for those struggles, and if you look at his numbers in February, it's pretty clear to see that the team around him wasn't the only problem leading up to the All-Star break.

    Meanwhile the Rockets don't even need Harden on the floor over 60% of the time to obliterate opponents. The Rockets went 6-3 this season without Harden with a +80 point differential.
    Their opponents in those nine games: Chicago x2, Dallas, Clippers, Phoenix, Portland, Detroit, Golden State and Orlando. Two of those nine games were against playoff teams.
    Eric Gordon should be sixth man of the year again, before you shout out Lou Williams .. go study what Gordon has been doing on the defensive end.

    Clint Capela is a defensive player of the year candidate.

    Chris Paul is likely to finish top 5 in the MVP voting.

    The Rockets role players are the best in the NBA this season.
    I don't disagree with many of these points, although I can assure you that Paul will not finish in the top 5 in MVP voting. He probably won't finish in the top 10. Daryl Morey has built a hell of a basketball team. But how many people prior to this season projected the Rockets to top 60 wins, much less finish with the best record in the league? They've completely exceeded expectations, and the whole team is built around Harden, who has had top 10-15 all-time caliber numbers this year.

    After you consider all this information. Honestly, you tell me who is more valuable, LeBron James or James Harden? It's not that close.
    James Harden is. Better numbers. Better team record. They'll finish with one of the 20 greatest records in NBA history, and Harden is the at the heart of everything they do as a team. He has a great No. 2, but a guy who has played less than half of the season in terms of total minutes. And he has some excellent role players, but those guys are just that: role players.

    Is his team better than Lebron's? Absolutely. But how does that devalue what Harden has done? Based on similar logic you used earlier in the post, if we were to look at what Harden did last year without Paul, the Rockets were still a 55-win team last season. Was Harden's supporting cast last year that much better than what Lebron has this year? And when you factor in that Harden has been better this season, I fail to see why the Rockets having more talent should hurt his cause.
    Last edited by mightybosstone; 04-11-2018 at 08:56 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    How is it contradictory?

    "Warriors should win the NBA Championship but Houston can beat them."

    Is that contradictory to you? No, because it isn't. You just read what you want to see.

    Just like when I say, Harden should win the NBA MVP but I would vote for LeBron."

    There's nothing contradictory about it.
    Yeah, that's a total contradiction. Saying someone should win something but you'd vote for someone else is just a disservice to the award and both guys.

    You switched up the context in both of those statements. No one votes on who wins games, people vote on who wins an award. To equate it it would be "Harden should win but Lebron could win." To say that someone deserves to win but you'd still vote for someone else is contradictory.
    Last edited by Saddletramp; 04-11-2018 at 07:54 PM.

  11. #176
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    An interesting post from Cleveland beat writer Jason Loyd:

    It wonít be long now until James Harden completes the journey, until he strides to a podium in Houston and receives his hard-earned Most Valuable Player award. Harden is a wonderful player. He has produced yet another fabulous season. It seems inevitable by now he will exit with his first MVP trophy.

    But it wonít be unanimous.

    Iím voting for LeBron James.

    As someone who has held an MVP vote more years than not in the past decade, one of my great professional fears is 20 years from now, we look back on Jamesí magnificent career and wonder how itís possible the greatest player of his generation ó arguably the greatest of all time ó could retire with only four MVP trophies.

    That in itself isnít reason enough to vote for him. The MVP isnít meant as a career achievement award. But it does demand us to take a deep look at James every spring and make sure we can justify not voting for him.

    James had a bad January by his lofty standards. He was sulking, perhaps silently protesting the Cavsí misfit roster through his play. Yet, he still averaged 23.5 points, 7.3 rebounds and 7.4 assists as the Cavs came apart at the seams. Guys have gone to All-Star games with numbers far worse.

    James also has been part of a defense mired in 29th in defensive rating. The Cavs have been a disaster defensively all season, and he is culpable. There is no denying he has failed to close out, failed to get even to half court on plenty of defensive possessions. These are the sins on his season.

    Yet, thereís also this: In every year since 2012, one advanced metric has correctly predicted the NBAís MVP. The player who finished first in Value Over Replacement Player each of the past six years, from Kevin Durant to James to Steph Curry to Russell Westbrook, has also gone on to win the MVP.

    This year? James is first in VORP. Harden is second.

    What is VORP? It isnít discussed or referenced as much as player efficiency rating, perhaps because PER came along first and is pushed heavily by ESPN. But those who make a living working for NBA teams and studying these types of numbers believe PER, despite having efficiency in its name, actually is inefficient because it rewards high volume shooters.

    VORP, while limited to box score data and play by play, also factors in team performance. It is basically an estimate of the points, per 100 possessions, that a player contributed above replacement level. The Cavs, like most teams, use their own set of internal metrics to measure players. But one data set they do use is a version very similar to VORP.

    Now just because James is first in VORP isnít enough to vote for him, but itís certainly curious that since 2006, the player who finished first in VORP has won the MVP every year except four times. In all four years (í06-í08 and 2011), James finished first in VORP and failed to win the MVP. He truly could ó and perhaps should ó win the MVP almost every year.

    James will finish this season with more points, rebounds, assists and blocks than Harden. He will also become just the second player in NBA/ABA history to average at least 27 points, 8 rebounds and 9 assists while shooting better than 50 percent. Oscar Robertson did it while shooting 52 percent in 1962-63. James is doing it while shooting 54 percent this season.

    And yet heís doing all of this at age 33 and in his 15th season despite less help, not more. As my colleague, ESPNís Dave McMenamin astutely pointed out, Harden benefited this season from the Rockets adding Chris Paul. The Cavs, meanwhile, took away Kyrie Irving and instead gave James a broken Isaiah Thomas. Then he lost Kevin Love for two months to a fractured hand. Yet, James still has the Cavs back to 50 wins and a division title despite a roster that has been torn down and rebuilt multiple times in the past 10 months.

    This might be viewed as trying to be a contrarian ó or worse, a homer. Thatís fine. I know of plenty bitter Cleveland fans who still havenít forgiven me for voting for Andre Iguodala as 2015 Finals MVP over James. (For the record, I stand by that decision today).

    It has been five years now since James won his last MVP. No player in history has gone more than four seasons between awards. The longer this goes, itís fair to wonder whether this is really it, if he really will finish one MVP shy of Michael Jordan and Bill Russell and two shy of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

    Harden is sensational. If Iíd spent the past six months watching him play, I might view this differently. But one of the two best players of all time is enjoying perhaps his finest season. That makes my choice relatively easy, even if the majority of voters probably wonít see it that way.
    Why did the chicken cross the basketball court?
    Because he heard the refs were blowing fowls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    So, I see your point here. But I think this is a little different then the takes I'm seeing from specific PSD posters (namely Flashbolt) who suggest that Harden deserves to win, but that he wouldn't personally vote for Harden. That's totally contradictory to me.

    But, yeah, I get the whole "I think this person will win, but I'd personally vote for someone else" conversation.


    OK, but nobody's forcing you to respond to me. And if you know I'm going to get emotional over my favorite player and my favorite team, I can't force you to debate. That's OK.


    In a perfect world? Absolutely. But this is PSD.


    The thing is that I don't disagree with some of the points that some posters have made. Paul coming to Houston, Harden's quality teammates and his somewhat lackluster play in March/April should have a small impact on Harden's candidacy. I'm not debating that. I just don't think those three factors alone come close to derailing a guy who's statistically having a superior season to everyone else in the league and who plays on the best team in the league.

    If we look at the history of the award, the two greatest factors have always been:
    1. Who has the best numbers?
    2. How good is his team?


    Harden kills it in both categories. So those other factors, for me, are totally negligible by comparison. People can certainly bring those points up, but how can you possibly justify them being enough to derail an exemplary MVP season? I just don't see the justification for it at all.
    That's what I'm saying though.

    Because of those criteria, I know he will win MVP. I'm saying I don't value team wins as heavily (at all really) and I mentioned in another post that I believe the trend in the future will be focused on a players overall value than it is things like falling short expectations, overachieving, etc.

    If the discussion was strictly who performed the best and who was the most valuable, the argument is closer and I'm sure that's where the discrepancy comes in with regards to the article I mentioned regarding who should/will win MVP. If we are arguing about who will win based on the current criteria, I'm not going to argue against Harden but I don't like the mainstream criteria.

  13. #178
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    The guy makes good points, but his key statistic (VORP) is a cumulative one, and is a number that obviously would favor a guy who has played in nine more games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

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    The problem I have with people arguing LeBron James should be MVP are trying to use criteria that haven't been used to pick past MVPs and certainly weren't used when James was winning them.

    In 2013 LeBron won MVP but KD had more cumulative Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. So why didn't anyone bring that up and say KD should be MVP over Bron then?

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    The problem I have with people arguing LeBron James should be MVP are trying to use criteria that haven't been used to pick past MVPs and certainly weren't used when James was winning them.

    In 2013 LeBron won MVP but KD had more cumulative Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. So why didn't anyone bring that up and say KD should be MVP over Bron then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

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